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How to get a Refund on Your Unwanted Windows
lisah writes "Serge Wroclawski recently contacted Dell to request a refund on the unwanted copy of Windows XP that came pre-installed on his computer. Somewhat surprisingly, Dell complied. Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principal than anything else, but it was a success nonetheless. Using his tips and techniques readers can try their hand at getting a refund of their own. Wroclawski cautions that you should be prepared for a long haul: the process could take hours." Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
This is too cool!
Let Micro$loth know how you feel!
First post???
As it happens, I don't want the hard drive they bundled with the machine either. Can I get a refund on that?
I'll keep the OS that lets me play games on my computer. When Linux can offer up drivers for every piece of hardware that attaches to my computer and when companies start making decent NEW games that run under Linux, I'll seek my refund.
Is it Microsoft or Dell themselves that *require* you to purchase one of their PC's with an O/S? If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
I thought dell built the computer exactly how YOU wanted it? Why not order it with No windows to begin with?
"This message was sent from an Apple
Can I hire someone in China to go through the refund process for me for a fraction of the refund amount?
1. What computer companies would do if thousands of people followed this example? (freak)
2. Could you do the same thing with Mac OSX (even though it is a *INX variant with a pretty shell)?
Anybody want to volunteer for either or both?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
What a dumbass. Just don't buy a computer with Windows on it if you don't want Windows. I don't understand zealots. Why waste so much damn time fighting fights that nobody (other than them) care about? Did Dell "learn a lesson" in this case? No. Did MS? No. End result: one guy out a lot of time, and up $52. Big deal. If I want to waste time, I'll at least waste time in front of my PS3, cocktail in hand. I certainly am not gonna waste one more second than I have to arguing with some poor minimum wage Indian call center drone over $52, WHICH I WILLINGLY SPENT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Now that Microsoft is somewhat de-fanged, we can actually exercise our rights as consumers and not get beheaded! How about this: Buy a Dell computer and get $52.50 off the purchase price of Mac OS X.5!
Most of the stuff on
Wait for Vista to come out to get a bigger discount (if possible to get any). Right now though, if you get XP on a new machine then you are probably going to get the Vista upgrade, which is going to be worth it considering the likely cost of a new license.
Also, do not expect companies to start selling OS free computers anytime soon. They make a good profit off charging for the OS (built into price)
Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
No... sorry the joke was the subject.
A lot of people have tried this since the "Windows Refund Day" back in 1999. http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ Not many have been successful.
Why Microsoft can't sell a copy of Windows XP to anyone for $52. I'm not sure why "volume discount" or OEM relationships are exactly a satisfactory answer either.
I think we've discussed this before here. It's not the same person, but it's pretty much the same story (the other one involves a laptop from Dell). One difference is that it looks like the other guy got more of a refund ($89).
I don't reply to Anonymous posts; if you have something to say to me, identify yourself or I won't reply.
This isn't anything new, I have read several stories on this already. maybe with different approaches but with the same outcome. Here was one posted on /. http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/18/1539214.shtm l
'sig' deleted due to the stupidity of it's 'nature'
...Most people who don't run Windows on an x86 PC build their own.
...I got just as much satisfaction by tearing the Windows license off my laptop (there's a spot on the laptop chassis marked COA, like it can't work without it) and removing the little sticker that says "Designed for Windows XP"
Unfortunately, it's just not worth the time when you're really just stroking your ego.
mandelbr0t"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
If you want an Intel-processor-powered computer without Windows, you can buy them from IBM, HP, Sun, etc; they are Server-type computers. Usually they are noisier becuase they have machine-room-type fans.
Yeah, I think it sucks too.
If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.
Now, obviously, Dell already has lots of options. But you'll note most of those options lead you to spending MORE money, not less money. And how many people really go to Dell to buy a computer and DON'T want windows on it? I would guess that the number is so small that the extra business Dell might get by offering a no-windows option is not worth the cost to them of doing so. Which is a perfectly rational business decision to make.
On the other hand, if lots of people keep calling up Dell and tying up their customer service reps on the phone doing Windows refunds, they may decide that offering the option is less expensive than fielding the calls (Dell doesn't want to pay people to talk to you on the phone any more than you want to waste time talking on the phone to them). So, if enough people call, the rational business decision might change from 'Always bundle windows' to 'Offer a no-Windows option'. Which is where 'the principle mentioned' in TFA applies.
paintball
"Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process."
For some miniscule amount of "us". "Them" seems to be doing well otherwise.
Unless you can get millions of people to do this en masse, this does more harm than good. It gives Dell and Microsoft a perfect opportunity to say:
"Anyone can return Windows for a refund. (Naturally we take just a few simple, reasonable precautions to ensure that people don't abuse the process.) Of umpteen godzillion copies of Windows bundled with Dell PCs last year, Dell's records show that the total number returned for a refund is... twenty-two[or whatever the number is].
This proves what we've been saying all along. Virtually everyone loves Windows, nobody really minds paying for it. Of the reported 5% [or whatever it is] of Dell customers using Linux, obviously the vast, vast majority of them also enjoying the copy of WIndows that came with their PC and think it is worth far, far more than $52.50.
It also shows, as we've been saying all along, that there's absolutely no need to make available PCs that are not preloaded with Windows. Anyone that doesn't want it can return it, as is proved by the twenty-two who did. Clearly it's not worth the effort of generating an extra SKU just to serve twenty-two eccentrics."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I am NOT shitting you! Take a look at www.apple.com/ooo or www.openoffice.org/macoffice Runs on Aqua, not X11!
Why was Apple wasting it's time on that lame iWork for the past few years???
You heard it here, first.
Since Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50.
Try $20 or $25...they paid you $52.50 because it was worth $52.50 to make you leave them alone. Whether you agree with bundling deals or not, making Dell have to deal with you on the phone for several hours and making them pay you money because you don't agree with how they sell their product is a really jerkish thing to do.
I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
They had to pay some support person to talk to him for those two hours, and their supervisor, and he tied up phone lines and computers on their end. The paid return postage. Then they probably needed someone in a different department to actually issue the $52.50 and then they had to pay credit card fees to return the money to his card. If they actually went ahead and returned the license to microsoft then that's yet more cost.
Companies may have very low operating expenses when everything goes to plan, but i would be surprised if it cost dell a decent multiple of 52.50 to actually process the issue.
If they start to notice it happening more often then the obvious thing to do is to build it in to the process and let people order machines without windows.
Getting the largest computer manufacturer to conceed that Windows isn't the only way would be a big win for everyone.
Isn't this a dupe? I could swear that I remember an exact story like this a while ago...
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Now I can get the money back from the laptop purchase and keep using the the usual warezed copy...
Does Dell give you achievement points for this?
I'd like to see someone press for a refund of all the 3rd party bundled software. Apps like Nero/Roxio and McAffee/Norton/Symantec. Anything that is pre-installed on the computer and neither available freely off the internet or provided by the vendor of a hardware component (all the drivers and helper apps for your sound card or video card). If you're not using the pre-installed OS, neither are you using any of the pre-installed apps, and they all cost money.
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/all iances/en/linux?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz
Would be interesting to know if you can get a refund form Apple for OSX if you plan to install some other OS on it.
--------
No sig.
I am currently in the process of doing this with Acer in the UK. It has taken about six weeks but I will be getting my refund, about £40. Since all communication with Acer has been done by email I have documented the steps on the Fedora Forums (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=13 9627).
The good thing about what I have done is that I have made Acer create a brand new policy. If someone buys a computer or laptop from Acer and they do not agree to the Windows EULA they can contact Acer and ask for a refund. They should be sent a form and will be required to despatch their machine to Acer for them to remove it.
Once I officially obtain the refund I will try and ensure that their policy is mentioned on their website.
Back in the day when cd burners cost more money, I returned a month-old broken one to Circuit City. They refused to "accept" the return, I left it behind anyway and left with no paperwork or bill of receipt. Nonetheless, the disputed amount was credited to my account.
Microsoft "negotiated" terms for giving OEMs better rates on Windows. Bottom line is that if hardware vendors don't put an OS on each and every PC/ laptop that they sell they end up paying more for Windows.
The effect is that the Microsoft Tax becomes great enough that the hardware vendor can't compete with other vendors who get Windows for a cheaper price. Being that Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems any vendor that doesn't go along goes out of business.
Microsoft originally required that only Microsoft OS could be installed but this was illegal so they did the next best thing. BTW Dell use to sell computers with Linux installed. I don't know if they do any more but instead of being cheaper they charged more because they can't just grab one off of an assembly line. It takes special attention and therefore costs more. So Microsoft is still leveraging there monopoly power through their price breaks given to vendors who won't sell a bare PC.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I bought my current notebook, an Acer Travelmate 2420, with Windows XP pre-installed...
I really tried to find a notebook with Linux pre-instaled, or at least without Windows. And to my surprise, the cheaper ones are those shipping with Windows!
Mind you that I live at Brazil, and import taxes and such may distort the prices a little... But the shocking truth is, at least here, if you want a notebook without Windows, you have to pay MORE for it.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
"At the current time however, there really isn't any way to build your own laptop...you have to buy a prebuilt one from a manufacturer, most of which are going to include Windows."
Apparently slashdot is stuck in a timewarp. Did you know you still have to compile your own kernel to get hardware to work?
>...Most people who don't run Windows on an x86 PC build their own.
Do they? This might actually be a better story.
I do, yeah. Every box since going to x86 in the early 90s.
But for most friends and all family I've usually found a complete store-bought unit that was a better deal, plus had a decent warranty. Generally, if you don't upgrade at least annually, you can be far enough behind the curve to make a new box worthwhile.
Let's do a quickie poll - how many new store-bought boxes have you installed only Linux/BSD on? (Dual boot with Windows wouldn't count here.)
Probably not a heck of a lot, but let's look for surprises.
I understand that its cool to "fight the good fight" and "take a moral stand" and all that. But quite frankly, $52.50 is not worth the hours it would take me to get it. I can use that time for something more productive with a better pay rate.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
It's not true! It's not true!
Microsoft is the ultimate evil. They are a heartless monopoly that we are powerless against. Even the federal government quakes before their might. We have no choice to do but what Steve Ballmers tells us!
It is not true that you can get a Windows refund. Otherwise I'll have to find a different reason for living besides hating Microsoft...
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
VMWare. So you have to buy another generic XP Pro OEM copy, for perhaps USD 139.
In a business, re-imaging a mixture a Dell/Non-Dell machines requires a non-Dell OEM version of XP (generic XP OEM works on Dells, but Dell XP only works on Dells). Re-imaging is the only efficient way to deploy/maintain lots of machines, since the estimate for "installation from scratch" is 10+ hours to install XP, Office, Updates, applications, leading to white papers advising how it is cheaper to "refresh hardware" than use valuable technician time to reinstall XP from scratch on each workstation.
The non-transferable OEM license associated with a particular Dell machine/COA implies a licensing model for Windows similar to Redhat, i.e. the OEM license is tied to support, which is not truthful at all since the license is for the purpose of operating the computer.
In theory, one could use that money to purchase World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade. If this Windows refund effort is done on a "patch Tuesday", even the time could be justified in lieu of Blizzard maintenance down-time.
I admire the author's perseverence and intent, and I did not RTFA but I think he got reamed. Here is what Dell charges for a copy of XP home. A $52 refund? Good try.
No, they don't want Windows, they want a computer because they want to surf teh intarwebs, use myspace, and forward stupid email jokes to all of their friends. They couldn't give a shit what the OS is, so long as the computer does what they want and doesn't cost more than they are willing to pay.
By forcing all the vendors to offer only computers with Windows preinstalled, Microshaft has guaranteed victory over the majority of computer buyers who just don't know any better. (Including corporations.)
Ever since I moved out of my parents' basement into an apartment, I've had several unwanted windows. Seeing this story, I was overjoyed. Alas, it's for some dumb piece of software. Thanks a lot, Slashdot!
I bought a Dell the other day. I'll be trying to get a refund for my XP license, just as a matter of principle, since I'm installing Linux (Ubuntu). However, on boot up this machine (an Inspiron 1300) does not display an option to reject the EULA. Instead it displays a message saying that "pressing any key" indicates acceptance of the license!
If you accepted that at face value, that would mean that hitting the off "key" would accept the license. Removing the battery and power cord allows you to switch off without hitting a key I suppose, but how are you supposed to use it if you can never press the keys again?
Ok, that's obviously an excessively paranoid interpretation and I doubt a court would hold that to be a reasonable interpretation even in the unlikely event that Dell were foolish enough to press the point, but it does demonstrate a very dubious use of an EULA.
In practice I expect Dell will pony up the money. We'll see.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
As already mentioned Dell offered to business buyers always (for two years) PCs without Windows, at least in some countries.
Not exactly this topic but related to the bundling issue: As bigger university we don't need a windows licence but a windows update. Once I've asked our software reseller (anyhow a Microsoft Gold Certified Partner) about this issue. The answer was: "For Microsoft there are no PCs without a preinstalled OS." (Microsoft made, I suppose.)
Linked to the main topic, this shows the irrelevancy of self-built PCs in business or at least in edu contexts. (I'm not sure anymore, but I thought I had the same conditions when I've worked for a bigger company buying licences from the same reseller...)
So a PC is more than the sum of its parts. Built together there is also an OS. Creepy!
I'm about to buy a laptop and face the same problem but before trying to solve it the same way I'd like to read the EULA so that what he uses as an argument really is stated there - so can they be found anywhere? I'd rather not buy one just to notice that the EULA presented won't work as such an argument and stores are obviously only willing to show the samples that are already up and running and if I asked for the EULA specifically and they found out why they'd probably not want me as a customer since regardless of whether MS or the manufacturer eventually pays them any refund, it would mean a lot of hazzle for them.
I'm especially interested in EULAs in other countries than the US and in other languages (the Finnish one in particular, in my case) since EULAs aren't valid in most. I read a brochure on consumer rights in the EU and it stated that EULAs are not only invalid but on the border to being illegal - they would be illegal if not accepting them had any consequences for you (the fact that you have to click "I Accept" to install a program doesn't mean that you actually agree to anything). That obviously also leaves me wondering if a manufacturer would at that point tell me that they're invalid if I tried to use it as an argument in favour of me getting a refund.
Why would one even contemplate removing the Microsoft Windows Operating System. Surely, there is no better OS on the planet. I've been reading about all the features of Windows on Microsoft's website for many hours now and rest assured I'd never think of asking for Windows to be removed.
So, let's see. I can take several hours of my life out to talk through this on the phone (let's be optimistic and say three) all to make $52.50, or I could just stay at the office with those three hours and make more than that.
Retail markup. The retailer has to be able to make money on that software, or they aren't going to carry it. You can't sell a retailer something for $50 and tell them to sell it for $50, they'll probably want to sell it for $100. When Dell refunds you money, they aren't refunding the marked up price, since the markup is on the whole PC, they refund you their purchase price. Also their markup on the software is probably lower since it's just part of a whole package to make the package more attractive.
FYI MS offers volume discounts to other large organizations. My university pays $54 per copy of Office we want. However, as similar to Dell, there's no support, we have to deal with the media, etc.
If they refund $50 for it it means that I can just go in any computer store and buy a copy of XP or vista for $50? If so, then I wouldn't mind buying a legit copy (the one I'm currently running is not) if not then I'll keep running the one I've downloaded.
subject says it... Could I get a refund from apple of mac os x?
I mean, the guy got a refund from Dell, but did Dell get a "refund" from Microsoft? I don't think so. That money probably just came straight out of Dell's customer support budget.
> The thing the retailer is selling and warranting is 'Personal Computer with Microsoft Windows'.
My (NAL) understanding is that you cannot *buy* a copy of Windows, you can only *license* the right to use it.
At least this is how Microsoft represents it.
However, by handing Dell the cash for the "laptop with license"-bundle, you did not accept the terms of the license, and therefore cannot yet use it.
If you later fire up the laptop and reject the terms of the EULA as *offered* by the install procedure,
it will expressly forbid you to use the software and ask you to return it to the dealer for a refund.
If Dell insists it only sells a bundle, then it would probably have to make sure you legally accept the
license (EULA = "End User Licence agreement") before it accepts your money.
The first time a major vendor offers full-what-they-paid-Microsoft-for-it no-hassle Windows refund, it will hit the blogosphere like a breath of fresh air.
Hobbyists and others will prefer to do business with that vendor.
You can't buy that kind of advertising. Well, not cheaply anyways.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
So.... anyone know if Apple will give refunds if you dont want to use Mac OS X?
This laptop was purchased through the small business section of Dell and they didn't offer a no-OS option.
They do offer some machines without an OS, but they're PCs and servers.
Guess where I read about it? http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/08/135820 7&from=rss
It's not your fault Dell does not make things easy, but you can help them see the light. Together, we can make this abuse a money loser.
The reason this makes sense is because it forces Dell to go through the wasteful process they have in place. Done enough times, the process will change. No one can afford to tie up their phones and support staff over a $50.00 refund they will have to give you if they don't want to break the law.
There are a lot of people who use free software exclusively and the potential for a whole lot more. Free Software finds it's way onto more than 30% of computers, if you include big packages like GIMP and Firefox. Most of those people may correctly suspect that a free operating system is the easiest way to get and keep those applications. If so much as 5% of Dell users spend the time demanding a refund for software they don't intend to use, Dell will be forced to change for the better. That change for the better will remove on more barrier to free software use - the computer without an OS will be cheaper to the end user as it always should have been.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Rather than jumping through hoops like this user did to get rid of the default Windows install, why is it so difficult for Dell to just include a "No operating system installed" option when customizing their desktop/notebook products? You can have it default to a pre-installed version of Windows, but if someone just didn't want an OS preinstalled on their Dell, how does that violate anything? Can anyone shed some light on this?
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Clearly, you and many like you **still** pretend that Microsoft is subject to market forces.
The conventional quickie-mart concept of "supply and demand" does not apply.
Microsoft is, in economic terms:
1. Monopoly
2. Price Maker
In plain english that means they set a price above a competitive market rate. That destroys the surplus value to consumers, and raises the price of hardware Windows runs on.
Third, support costs. If Dell is selling the software, and willing to be the first line of support, that means that they are willing to take on support costs and therefore lower Microsofts.
There are so many false assumptions in that statement I don't know where to begin. I'll simply say the statement bears no resemblence to how "support" is managed inside the PC business.
Fourth, distribution costs. Shipping thousands of OEM copies to one customer
Another statement that bears no resemblance to reality. You have no idea the *how* Dell gets its windows cd's. There are many ways that it is done in the industry most of which allow the parent (ex. microsoft) keeping no inventory whatsoever.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
coincidentally, i was on dell.com this morning and noticed that you can indeed buy a machine with no OS installed and a copy of freeDOS in the box.
Because MS won't give them the same bulk deal.
This will means it costs more to put MS on the computers.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Bought an IBM R50e laptop a few years ago and wanted to try for just the hell of it to return the XP license that is glued to the bottom of the laptop. Microsoft customer support offered their warmest apologies and said that the next time I should buy an laptop without a pre-installed OS. Right. Called IBM. According to their customer support I would have to return the whole laptop as the license is tied to this physical machine and the only way to get rid of the license it to get rid of the machine. Brilliant.
go to the dell site. from the notebooks tab choose Open-Source Notebooks. play their silly game a price one out. i picked a latitude 520N Duo with all defaults, it comes to $699. now go through and find the same machine with windows on it. look at a latitude 520 Duo. the same model, same processor, same memory, bigger HD, DVD-ROM instead of CD-ROM, with windows xp sp2. can you guess the price? $699. please explain that to me.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. -Gandhi
Ya know what, this sounds like 100% anti-ms rant Third, support costs. If Dell is selling the software, and willing to be the first line of support, that means that they are willing to take on support costs and therefore lower Microsofts. There are so many false assumptions in that statement I don't know where to begin. I'll simply say the statement bears no resemblence to how "support" is managed inside the PC business. Support is awful wherever you go but if people order from dell, the average home user, they will usually either look to more computer-savvy friends/relatives for help or call the number in the manual/documentation. This number will not certainly be Microsofts number, it might be the Indian call centre next door but it won't me Microsoft. As for prices above "market rate" it seems to me that computers with Windows in tend to weigh in as cheaper than, for the nearest example, most Macs. The only way you'll get something for nothing is using something like one of the many flavours of Linux, which for most home users just isn't really an option either due to having got used to Windows due to how common it is or just not wishing to do more work than they have to to get on the internet. Sure you know that x y or z is a good idea, but just try to sell your idea to someone that doesn't want to know about the plus points and simply wants to get on the internet and check their emails. 99% of the time you fight a losing battle.
The geek that actually likes Windows. I got cookies.
"my Dell laptop doesn't have an 'any key'"
It's a good thing they didn't tell you to press the any key then.
Here, I'll help.
Windows version: none. Are you saying they don't track which machines went out with Windows 95 or Vista Pro?
Hrm, looking at my original post, no it does not appear I said that. I said that offering an additional option of operating system costs money that is probably not worth the increased business from having the option.
I cited having to add an item to the assembly process as an example, but it was just one example.
You mention that Dell already tracks what OS shipped on each computer. So what? The increased costs are not just in remembering what OS was on the computer when you sold it.
Increased costs also come from other areas. There's a cost in giving a user a choice they may not understand - confusion may cost you sales, and it may cost you more money on customer service inquiry. Most people know that 512 MB is better than 256 MB. Most users do not know what the difference is between Windows and Linux.
Most importantly, when you customize a Dell, there are *NO* options you can select that will result in you getting a computer you can't turn on and use. You can't select NO hard drive. You can't select NO memory. And they're not going to have an option for you to select NO OS, because then people will select it and start getting computers that don't work.
Remember also that Dell supports their own hardware. If someone gets it, and it doesn't work, Dell gets the phone call. So even if they offer Windows AND Linux, when people choose Linux, and then go to install a program that they expect to work that does not work on Linux, Dell gets that call too.
Adding an option for No OS or Linux to consumer-model desktops and laptops just does not make sense for Dell to do. The number of people who would like to use Linux who would be pleased by the option is far, far, far less than the number of customers who will end up with computers that they think, even though it's because of their own ignorance, are broken. Dell does not care whether the customer thinks they have a broken computer because the customer is ignorant. Dell only cares that the customer thinks they got a broken computer.
Another cost is support. Fielding people who can support Windows 95 and Windows XP is a whole different ball game than fielding support that can handle Windows XP and Linux.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Dell does have Linux available on some computers - specifically, high-end workstations. But all that shows is that it's profitable to offer high-end workstations with !windows while trying to offer consumer computers with !windows is not.
It isn't any more reasonable for Dell to offer 'No Windows' or 'Linux' than it is for them to offer 'No Video Card' or a video card from a non-partnered vendor. You buy the computer, you get the video cards they make available. If you don't like it, you don't get to pull it out and send it back. The only reason you get a refund on Windows is because of the license agreement.
Or, put another way, if YOU want Linux on your computer, don't buy your computer at Dell. It's not their obligation to offer Linux if they think it's more trouble for them than it's worth.
paintball
My experience with OEM pricing vs retail pricing for software in other markets is that a competitive OEM price for Windows would be more like $10 per copy, not $50+. Yes you heard me right, the volumes involved and the savings in distribution, support, packaging etc will push the OEM price down to 10% or less than retail for most software products if there was not an abusive monopoly at work here.
Increased costs are not limited to the assembly process.
Having a 'No OS' option does one thing none of the other options do:
It allows for the customer to make a choice that results in them receiving a computer that does not work.
There's a big difference between whether a CD is included or not and whether the computer does anything when you turn it on.
paintball
Go to music store, pick out several disks that aren't CDs but Cd lookalikes with DRM and rootkits and ads and who knows what else. Take them to counter, then go "whoops (loud voice), I thought these were CD's! Guess I don't want these crippled disks!"
Same deal and it is the only thing these huge companies understand, bottom line and customer satisfaction, etc. No matter what level they hear about it, complaints at the checkout line to articles in the mainstream press, consumers have a right and duty to nag, coerce and inveigle their way to better choices and choices that don't come pre-suckified by design. Because sure as crap the bribed off government won't mandate it, they are more than happy to keep letting monopolies/cartels arise and flourish and prosper and play make believe public PR busywork to show they are "cracking down", like about all that goon who just became gov in NY ever did, joke fines, slap on the wrist but for some reason he gets this press as being the champion of the people. rubbish. Even when they bust cartels and monopolies, they let them pay a joke fine, they never shut them down, no fatcats go to jail for RICO, they never pull their incorporation charters, or make them actually change their behavior. And the next sucker, I mean "customer", helps to pay the joke fines anyway. Lather, rinse, repeat. So all we can do is to let these corps know that we are wise to their consumer unfriendly tactics and act accordingly.
You need to check out HP... suddenly EVERY SINGLE ONE of their business computers is available as a "Linux" model (actually a freeDOS install) and the amount saved is MUCH more than a measly $52. On a lower priced model, you can save 25% on the cost of the computer:
For example...
HP site: HP Compaq 2000 series (two models):
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Pro $637
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Home $557
dx2200 microtower base model, "Alternate OS" $487
Wow! $150 difference from XP Pro and $70 from XP Home! That is the *FIRST TIME* I have *EVER* seen a true, correct, and reasonable difference in the price. Could HP be doing something neat? I actually checked EVERY LINE of the quote to make sure that wasn't a mistake.
So... in this case, you really can avoid an almost 24% tax!
Certainly that is the only model. NO- they offer "configure Linux PC" on the entire 5000 line (4 more models) and get this- the difference is *$167* this time. And $160 on the entire 7000 line (three more models). In fact, every single small, medium, and large business line and even workstation line is available with "Alternate OS" (even business laptops!). You only lack the choice with their "Home" computers. Good going, HP!
I am not saying that MS-Windows isn't *worth* the $160 to some people. But it is worth $0 to people that want to install something other than MS-Windows or already own an MS-Windows individual or site license.
Now we need HP to do this with their home line too, and hopefully the other vendors will follow.
When I bought an Inspiron 8600 a couple of years ago I spent well an hour on the phone before getting a refund. This time I got a XPS M1210 and after 10 minutes and talking to two different sales people I got my $89 refund. I just wonder why that guy got only $52.50. In any case, this were my best paid 10 minutes ever and the XPS M1210 turned out to make an awesome Linux notebook.
To your very nicely put explanation that the customer normally thinks something they have done wrong or have misunderstood is the manufacturer's fault, let me offer my two rules of customer service:
Rule 1. The customer is always wrong.
Rule 2. Never even hint this to the customer.
The commodity PC running Windows is dirt cheap. That is why Walmart walked away from OEM Linux.
"If you wonder why things in the world are taking a down turn, it's because very few people are willing to do things just on principle"
So how many copyright violators are voluntarily turning themselves in?
Dell needs Windows to make money. Have you ever purchased a Dell? There is incredible amount of shareware and crippleware on a Dell. Do you think Dell is including this software out of the goodness of it's heart? No, everything icon added on the build was paid for. And if you've bought a Dell, specially Dell Home PC there's A LOT of paid placement.
Doesn't everyone here know that you are better off for a home computer just putting simple parts together instead of paying a lot more for a pre-assembled machine and an MS Windows licence?
"Unless you can get millions of people to do this en masse...."
Nope, all it takes is *one* judge to order it possible and common and easy to do and routine.
Actually I think Dell is in the perfect position to offer at least one or two flavors of Linux/BSD because of their control of the hardware just as Apple has. Controlling both the hardware and software that goes into their machines is Apple's secret to having a stable OS and application suite. For that matter, Dell could even offer it's own distro customized for Dell's standard hardware configurations. If they did that, I might even be tempted to buy a Dell myself instead of putting a machine together from scratch and wrestling with Linux over device drivers, screen resolution and refresh rate, etc. Maybe I could even *finally* have a version of Linux/BSD that lets me use the sidebuttons on my Logitech mice as I can under Windblows. :-)
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
that's rediculous!
... yes!
Hmm, is that domain taken
I have a small business (structural type of engineering) and run two Dell notebooks. My primary notebook is on FC (yes, I still have the windows disk) and I've been very happy with it. While the above companies can provide linux-ready notebooks, how many can repair on-site next business day? I use my notebooks for number crunching and in the field; so far, Dell has replaced four motherboards, a battery, a mouse and an LCD screen--each in less than 24 hours and the costs covered by my extended service plan. I do suggest to other owners of small businesses that cannot afford an in-house tech staff to buy middle of the line Dell's with extended on-site next day service because the cost of losing one man day exceeds the extra cost of the service plan. To not have such a service plan would result in at least two days of downtime because someone would have to come in to diagnose and fix whatever problem exists--to me that is not a prudent financial decision in running a small business. Could someone in the office fix whatever problem exists? Probably. Is it an efficient use of resources? Probably not.
Sure, provide Windows but make the Windows partition 50% of the disk.
Then it is easier to install Linux for dual boot. Dell spends very little on OEM Windows licenses so the cost to me of having Windows is very small. However, getting a PC with half the disk unused makes life simpler.
Are you all Gates' kids? If I could do something for a few hours, earn $52 bucks, I'll do it! 2 hours @ $26 an hour is pretty good money especially for phone work where you aren't the one taking the angry caller.
I mean, I think people are nuts who won't bend over to pick up a $1 bill. But leaving a $52 check in the trash, just because it will take you 2 hours to find it... that's just about as crazy.
Either these people are crazy, or they have a very large trust fund.
I've put Mandriva on a Dell 400SC server (purchased with no OS) and Xubuntu on a Dell Inspiron laptop (had no choice but to get Windows on it, formatted over it). Going back a few years, I bought a pre-assembled PC from a local store, it came with Windows on it and I used it for a while, but ended replacing it with Linux (Mandrake). I have no problem opening them up and adding drives, cards, or memory; and for a high end box, I'd build it myself to get exactly the specs I wanted. But for a cheap low end box, store bought systems are tough to beat on price (bulk buying power) and simplicity (everything from the cooling fan to the face plates have been presumably tested to work together and they all come in one box at the same time with only one vendor to deal with and a warranty).
Most importantly, when you customize a Dell, there are *NO* options you can select that will result in you getting a computer you can't turn on and use. You can't select NO hard drive. You can't select NO memory. And they're not going to have an option for you to select NO OS, because then people will select it and start getting computers that don't work.
Dell offers options for:
*NO* monitor
*NO* keyboard
*NO* mouse
*NO* printer
*NO* speakers
*NO* TV tuner
*NO* floppy (default)
*NO* Office software
On the cheapest Dell I could configure, I was offered 4 different OS choices and 4 different Vista upgrade choices. That's 16 different options that will result in different user experiences. Some change the behavior of my XBox360; some don't. Some play DVDs; some don't. Some can be used to type my kids school paper; some can't.
But all of those can be overcome if you send Dell some more money and get your son's girlfriend to come install the hardware Dell ships after you found out you ordered the wrong thing.
Unfortunately, your son's girlfriend even struggles to install Windows after the fact. Dell can ship it to you later, just like all the other things. But who's going to install it?
Even if I install Linux (like on my office PC), I'd still keep Windows XP - it's still useful. I can run it on vmware server on Linux.
What people should do if they ever want windows is INSIST on XP instead of Vista!
If almost everybody stays with XP and DirectX 9 and doesn't move on to Vista. Then Windows XP+DX9 could become a defacto standard that even Microsoft can't get rid of (just like Intel can't get rid of x86 - they tried and failed with their Itanic, and when IBM tried to switch to MCA).
Then the jobs of people doing Wine, Crossover office, Cedega and more become a lot easier - they then have a fixed target instead of multiple moving targets.
Be realistic and ignore the fanboys out there, there are many valid reasons for wanting Windows. XP makes a good substitute for Vista, (until more and more people start switching to Vista).
But there is no Linux substitute for Windows yet. My proposal will make it more likely for there to be one.
Just a look at Vista will tell you that Microsoft is no longer improving things significantly or meaningfully, so we might as well freeze Windows, and be able to spend more time and resources on innovating elsewhere.
If we hijack Windows from Microsoft, then Microsoft will be like a BIOS vendor when it comes to Windows. Anyone remember "IBM compatible PC"?
So everyone, start telling Dell, HP et all to preload and sell XP instead of Vista.
get a linux laptop, from vendor like emperorlinux.com (I'm not affiliated with that company) I remember when I was going to purchased my laptop in bestbuy, I brought a Knoppix CD and asked the guy if I can insert and boot the CD so I can test out the hardware if it's compatible with knoppix, they didn't allow me. Then at checkout they tried to offer me some software, like Norton Internet Security, and I told them I'm going to wipe the hard drive and install linux on it, he insisted I will still need the Norton to protect me - LOL -
>"it doesnt add cost to them if the default is none."
Yes it does.
If they do that they'll start getting thousands of support calls saying "I switched my computer on and it doesn't work".
No sig today...
Dear All,
Next time You consider something like that, please contact me first (1513-823@onlinehome.de)! I will give You better price for a legal original M$ Vista (only 'Business' or 'Ultimate' versions, please!) than your Dell refund! In addition, You will have to spend much less time for this transaction!
What a waste of time and for what $50? Get over it.
In real life, there are hundreds of alternative OS's that run on the x86 platform.
As for support, he's right. Is it really hard to grasp the concept that if the OS comes with the PC the customer will call Dell first, weeding out some percentage of people from calling MS with issues that don't really have anything to do with the OS? Please try to keep up, we're not discussing rocket science here.
As for distribution, I think you may be retarded. Scenario 1: MS ships 100000 extra CD's to retail vendors. Scenario 2: MS sends a few copies to Dell, or allows them to download it. Now really, stay with me... which is cheaper?
though I got a letter and £52, the letter admitting that they should have offered the refund because of the EULA.
So more money but less of a change in Watford Electronics.
They also wanted me to send the CD back but they never sent me the returns envelope.
Microsoft originally required that only Microsoft OS could be installed but this was illegal so they did the next best thing. BTW Dell use to sell computers with Linux installed. I don't know if they do any more but instead of being cheaper they charged more because they can't just grab one off of an assembly line. It takes special attention and therefore costs more. So Microsoft is still leveraging there monopoly power through their price breaks given to vendors who won't sell a bare PC.
I don't see how offering Linux preinstalled will cost more than having Windows preinstalled. All Dells are supposed to be custom built so all they'd need to do is add a hdd bin with Linux. If anything because Linux is either free or costs less than Windows having Linux preinstalled should be cheaper. The only reason it would be more expensive is if Dell still had to pay MS for a license for the PC. If true then I'd imagine this would be a break of the MS settlement, that's they're still acting like a monopoly. If so then why hasn't MS been brought back into court? Stupid question, after the Clinton admin had them on the ropes, the Bush admin let them walk away without so much as a slap on the wrist.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Do you really think ms gets money to install "Desktop Icons" and "Startup Menu Items"?
And thanks for pointing at the de-crapifier. I've been doing a format / re-install the OS when clients buy a box from Dell. Any idea if it completely removes the AOL stuff (the AOL uninstall does not - at least for ver 9.0 )
Actually, Dell does offer a no OS option. Of course, this is only on their server-class computers and they make sure you know you are not getting a computer that can be turned on and instantly working. Of course, if you are in the server-class section, hopefully you know what you are doing.
Are you the type of person that never disputes false credit card charges? If so I have a lot of stuff to "sell" to you over here.
The EULA is a contract, and by contract law there must be a way to "refuse" to sign the contract and not accept the products. If Microsoft would want to not allow this occur, they'd have to drop the EULA.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
MICROSOFT'S POWER IN THE RELEVANT MARKET
33. Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above that which could be charged in a competitive market. Moreover, it could do so for a significant period of time without losing an unacceptable amount of business to competitors. In other words, Microsoft enjoys monopoly power in the relevant market.
34. Viewed together, three main facts indicate that Microsoft enjoys monopoly power. First, Microsoft's share of the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems is extremely large and stable. Second, Microsoft's dominant market share is protected by a high barrier to entry. Third, and largely as a result of that barrier, Microsoft's customers lack a commercially viable alternative to Windows.
What you say seems logical but Dell still must prepare the hard drives. Since they only would sell a small fraction of Linux
drives the cost of setup is distributed over a few hundred drives rather than many thousands.
I'm not sure if this is what is really going on but that's their story.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
One of the items taken in to consideration when levying penalties for copyright infringement is the market impact of the copying. If Windows is effectively $0 from Dell (and labeled as such on the option configuration screen) shouldn't that go a long way for lowering penalties of copyright infringement?
As I always say, nobody pays for software anymore. It's bundled, or it's snuck in, or it's a monthly fee, etc.
A computer without an OS *does* work. You put in your install disk (or USB stick I suppose..) and boot it up. Your argument is like saying you should have to buy a CD player with a pack of RIAA-approved CDs, a DVD player with movies, or an iPod with music preloaded. The CD, DVD, and ipod don't work otherwise.. they won't play any music or movies after all.
And for the practical warranty problems, they should just supply no tech support, and a diagnostic CD to run before for warranty purposes (so people aren't returning machines because of driver problems..) I think my most recent Dell may have actually had just that sort of disk..
Wrong. the "press any key" message the first time you turn on a Dell doesn't say you agree to the EULA by pressing any key. it states that you agree that any CDs you received with the system are considered backup copies of software. don't believe me? go check it next time.