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How to get a Refund on Your Unwanted Windows
lisah writes "Serge Wroclawski recently contacted Dell to request a refund on the unwanted copy of Windows XP that came pre-installed on his computer. Somewhat surprisingly, Dell complied. Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principal than anything else, but it was a success nonetheless. Using his tips and techniques readers can try their hand at getting a refund of their own. Wroclawski cautions that you should be prepared for a long haul: the process could take hours." Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
Is it Microsoft or Dell themselves that *require* you to purchase one of their PC's with an O/S? If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
I thought dell built the computer exactly how YOU wanted it? Why not order it with No windows to begin with?
"This message was sent from an Apple
Can I hire someone in China to go through the refund process for me for a fraction of the refund amount?
1. What computer companies would do if thousands of people followed this example? (freak)
2. Could you do the same thing with Mac OSX (even though it is a *INX variant with a pretty shell)?
Anybody want to volunteer for either or both?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Its spelled 'cents', and yes...I agree 5,250 is a lot of cents.
Who needs new games when you have NETRIS?
Now that Microsoft is somewhat de-fanged, we can actually exercise our rights as consumers and not get beheaded! How about this: Buy a Dell computer and get $52.50 off the purchase price of Mac OS X.5!
Most of the stuff on
Wait for Vista to come out to get a bigger discount (if possible to get any). Right now though, if you get XP on a new machine then you are probably going to get the Vista upgrade, which is going to be worth it considering the likely cost of a new license.
Also, do not expect companies to start selling OS free computers anytime soon. They make a good profit off charging for the OS (built into price)
Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
Does the hard drive come with a separate license explicitly entitling you to a refund if you choose not to accept the extensive post-sale license it subjects you to?
I guess if you're still living with your mom, you might consider it a large sum.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
A lot of people have tried this since the "Windows Refund Day" back in 1999. http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ Not many have been successful.
Why Microsoft can't sell a copy of Windows XP to anyone for $52. I'm not sure why "volume discount" or OEM relationships are exactly a satisfactory answer either.
Can I get a refund on that?
Did it come with an End User Licence Agreement which stated that if you did not agree to the licence you could return it for a refund? If so, then yes - you can return the drive for a refund. If no, then probably not.
If Burger King can hold the cheese, then so can Dell. Go back to your PS3 and don't worry about people who are engaging in more worthwhile activities.
With desktops this is a no-brainer...just build your own and don't buy Windows. At the current time however, there really isn't any way to build your own laptop...you have to buy a prebuilt one from a manufacturer, most of which are going to include Windows. TFA was about someone getting a Windows refund for a laptop.
What a dumbass. Not everyone has the same money or priorities you do. You and I might make good money, but plenty of folks are out there making minimum wage or not a lot more an the $10/hour phone call (or whatever it is) is a decent wage for them. Also consider that most of that time on the phone is likely to be on hold or in phone queues. With a headset, someone can be in front of their PS3, cocktail in hand, and get back the $52 that they didn't want to spend on MSware. Yes, you can get computers without Windows (I always build my own), but Dell has lower prices than a lot of those custom shops for the same hardware. Getting back that $52 is additional savings.
I think we've discussed this before here. It's not the same person, but it's pretty much the same story (the other one involves a laptop from Dell). One difference is that it looks like the other guy got more of a refund ($89).
I don't reply to Anonymous posts; if you have something to say to me, identify yourself or I won't reply.
...Most people who don't run Windows on an x86 PC build their own.
...I got just as much satisfaction by tearing the Windows license off my laptop (there's a spot on the laptop chassis marked COA, like it can't work without it) and removing the little sticker that says "Designed for Windows XP"
Unfortunately, it's just not worth the time when you're really just stroking your ego.
mandelbr0t"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
It's still a better deal than waiting in line for 3 days for a PS3.
If you want an Intel-processor-powered computer without Windows, you can buy them from IBM, HP, Sun, etc; they are Server-type computers. Usually they are noisier becuase they have machine-room-type fans.
Yeah, I think it sucks too.
If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.
Now, obviously, Dell already has lots of options. But you'll note most of those options lead you to spending MORE money, not less money. And how many people really go to Dell to buy a computer and DON'T want windows on it? I would guess that the number is so small that the extra business Dell might get by offering a no-windows option is not worth the cost to them of doing so. Which is a perfectly rational business decision to make.
On the other hand, if lots of people keep calling up Dell and tying up their customer service reps on the phone doing Windows refunds, they may decide that offering the option is less expensive than fielding the calls (Dell doesn't want to pay people to talk to you on the phone any more than you want to waste time talking on the phone to them). So, if enough people call, the rational business decision might change from 'Always bundle windows' to 'Offer a no-Windows option'. Which is where 'the principle mentioned' in TFA applies.
paintball
Which is why even the summary says: "Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principle than anything else".
Anything that shows companies like Dell that people want something other than Windows is a step in the right direction. Maybe after refunding that $52.50 enough times, they'll start to rethink pre-installing Windows without giving people a choice.
There are a large number of people out here, albeit a minority, that do want to just run, say, Linux, on the PCs that they buy. And the fact is that the more time you spend researching and selecting hardware carefully, especially in the case of laptops, means that the easier job you'll have getting Linux to recognise of all of it.
I've never put Linux on a Dell laptop so I don't know how Linux-friendly they are - but I have recently done so an IBM one (which was easy), on a HP one (which was a bit trickier) and finally on a Gateway one (which I never got 100% working).
No, the $52 is not an important sum of money but if a number of people do it, then it sends a clear message to Dell to offer OS-free laptops. If other people run XP and are happy with it then good luck to them and I hope it does what they want it to do - but there is no "one size fits all" in computing and please have some respect for those of us who aren't interested in getting involved in an OS "war" but do want the freedom to run the software that they want to.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Unless you can get millions of people to do this en masse, this does more harm than good. It gives Dell and Microsoft a perfect opportunity to say:
"Anyone can return Windows for a refund. (Naturally we take just a few simple, reasonable precautions to ensure that people don't abuse the process.) Of umpteen godzillion copies of Windows bundled with Dell PCs last year, Dell's records show that the total number returned for a refund is... twenty-two[or whatever the number is].
This proves what we've been saying all along. Virtually everyone loves Windows, nobody really minds paying for it. Of the reported 5% [or whatever it is] of Dell customers using Linux, obviously the vast, vast majority of them also enjoying the copy of WIndows that came with their PC and think it is worth far, far more than $52.50.
It also shows, as we've been saying all along, that there's absolutely no need to make available PCs that are not preloaded with Windows. Anyone that doesn't want it can return it, as is proved by the twenty-two who did. Clearly it's not worth the effort of generating an extra SKU just to serve twenty-two eccentrics."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Since Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50.
Try $20 or $25...they paid you $52.50 because it was worth $52.50 to make you leave them alone. Whether you agree with bundling deals or not, making Dell have to deal with you on the phone for several hours and making them pay you money because you don't agree with how they sell their product is a really jerkish thing to do.
I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
They had to pay some support person to talk to him for those two hours, and their supervisor, and he tied up phone lines and computers on their end. The paid return postage. Then they probably needed someone in a different department to actually issue the $52.50 and then they had to pay credit card fees to return the money to his card. If they actually went ahead and returned the license to microsoft then that's yet more cost.
Companies may have very low operating expenses when everything goes to plan, but i would be surprised if it cost dell a decent multiple of 52.50 to actually process the issue.
If they start to notice it happening more often then the obvious thing to do is to build it in to the process and let people order machines without windows.
Getting the largest computer manufacturer to conceed that Windows isn't the only way would be a big win for everyone.
evidently you've missed the point though.
it's about principle. if enough of us demand the 52 bucks, thats a good deal of money for Dell and Microsoft to eat. This will lead the future offering of machines without an OS preloaded.
If you wonder why things in the world are taking a down turn, it's because very few people are willing to do things just on principle. As one person, yea, 52 bucks is less than a drop in the bucket (Especially from the corporation's side of it) But if we work together, we can begin to change things towards our liking.
Don't Tread on Me
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Now I can get the money back from the laptop purchase and keep using the the usual warezed copy...
Does Dell give you achievement points for this?
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
I am currently in the process of doing this with Acer in the UK. It has taken about six weeks but I will be getting my refund, about £40. Since all communication with Acer has been done by email I have documented the steps on the Fedora Forums (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=13 9627).
The good thing about what I have done is that I have made Acer create a brand new policy. If someone buys a computer or laptop from Acer and they do not agree to the Windows EULA they can contact Acer and ask for a refund. They should be sent a form and will be required to despatch their machine to Acer for them to remove it.
Once I officially obtain the refund I will try and ensure that their policy is mentioned on their website.
Sounds like he's up 52 bucks compared to you at the end of a few hours. Now who's the dumbass with the stupid hobby?
And it's not just the $52. He's gained knowlege, published it for the benefit of others, and for all we know could have been enjoying a cocktail himself in the process. It's his time, he can spend it as he pleases whether you or I approve or not.
I am not a crackpot.
The parent is right (if stating it poorly). The fact is that MS and the OEMs don't need to make it impossible to get a refund for Windows, just a PitA. I mean, if they can chase you off with 15 minutes from a $10/hour guy and making you do hours of work to prove you erased XP and send the copy back to them, you're not going to bother. 90% of the time, Dell just loses $5 in tech-support pay dealing with your complaint.
Microsoft "negotiated" terms for giving OEMs better rates on Windows. Bottom line is that if hardware vendors don't put an OS on each and every PC/ laptop that they sell they end up paying more for Windows.
The effect is that the Microsoft Tax becomes great enough that the hardware vendor can't compete with other vendors who get Windows for a cheaper price. Being that Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems any vendor that doesn't go along goes out of business.
Microsoft originally required that only Microsoft OS could be installed but this was illegal so they did the next best thing. BTW Dell use to sell computers with Linux installed. I don't know if they do any more but instead of being cheaper they charged more because they can't just grab one off of an assembly line. It takes special attention and therefore costs more. So Microsoft is still leveraging there monopoly power through their price breaks given to vendors who won't sell a bare PC.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I bought my current notebook, an Acer Travelmate 2420, with Windows XP pre-installed...
I really tried to find a notebook with Linux pre-instaled, or at least without Windows. And to my surprise, the cheaper ones are those shipping with Windows!
Mind you that I live at Brazil, and import taxes and such may distort the prices a little... But the shocking truth is, at least here, if you want a notebook without Windows, you have to pay MORE for it.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
I wouldn't be surprised if the act of reading the license constitutes acceptance. In other words, it is impossible to boot the machine far enough to be able to install alternative OS without violating some portion of the license.
I understand that its cool to "fight the good fight" and "take a moral stand" and all that. But quite frankly, $52.50 is not worth the hours it would take me to get it. I can use that time for something more productive with a better pay rate.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
"The majority of Dell's customers want Windows."
You're right. But lets just hope that the numbers of us that don't will grow in the future.
Don't Tread on Me
VMWare. So you have to buy another generic XP Pro OEM copy, for perhaps USD 139.
In a business, re-imaging a mixture a Dell/Non-Dell machines requires a non-Dell OEM version of XP (generic XP OEM works on Dells, but Dell XP only works on Dells). Re-imaging is the only efficient way to deploy/maintain lots of machines, since the estimate for "installation from scratch" is 10+ hours to install XP, Office, Updates, applications, leading to white papers advising how it is cheaper to "refresh hardware" than use valuable technician time to reinstall XP from scratch on each workstation.
The non-transferable OEM license associated with a particular Dell machine/COA implies a licensing model for Windows similar to Redhat, i.e. the OEM license is tied to support, which is not truthful at all since the license is for the purpose of operating the computer.
In theory, one could use that money to purchase World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade. If this Windows refund effort is done on a "patch Tuesday", even the time could be justified in lieu of Blizzard maintenance down-time.
I admire the author's perseverence and intent, and I did not RTFA but I think he got reamed. Here is what Dell charges for a copy of XP home. A $52 refund? Good try.
Um, isn't that off-topic?
If you're not bitching about Microsoft wanting to get paid their license fees (like all the other bundled software vendors receive), then your comments aren't helpful.
No, they don't want Windows, they want a computer because they want to surf teh intarwebs, use myspace, and forward stupid email jokes to all of their friends. They couldn't give a shit what the OS is, so long as the computer does what they want and doesn't cost more than they are willing to pay.
By forcing all the vendors to offer only computers with Windows preinstalled, Microshaft has guaranteed victory over the majority of computer buyers who just don't know any better. (Including corporations.)
Ever since I moved out of my parents' basement into an apartment, I've had several unwanted windows. Seeing this story, I was overjoyed. Alas, it's for some dumb piece of software. Thanks a lot, Slashdot!
Well, you learn something *EVERY* day on Slashdot! And there was me thinking OSX was just a pretty matching screensaver for an over-sized designer coffee table...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
And your follow-up too. Perhaps there is a lesson in this for you? ;-)
When I configured the host on Dell's web site, I made sure that it didn't come with any bundled software. The OS was the only thing that you couldn't remove.
Point take. Although I've never really understood why the refund can apply only to the software. If they were obliged to take back and refund the entire computer then it makes sense, but with the bulk licencing agreement they probably have, I'm not sure how they decide how much of the price is for the computer and how much is for the OS.
I bought a Dell the other day. I'll be trying to get a refund for my XP license, just as a matter of principle, since I'm installing Linux (Ubuntu). However, on boot up this machine (an Inspiron 1300) does not display an option to reject the EULA. Instead it displays a message saying that "pressing any key" indicates acceptance of the license!
If you accepted that at face value, that would mean that hitting the off "key" would accept the license. Removing the battery and power cord allows you to switch off without hitting a key I suppose, but how are you supposed to use it if you can never press the keys again?
Ok, that's obviously an excessively paranoid interpretation and I doubt a court would hold that to be a reasonable interpretation even in the unlikely event that Dell were foolish enough to press the point, but it does demonstrate a very dubious use of an EULA.
In practice I expect Dell will pony up the money. We'll see.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
As already mentioned Dell offered to business buyers always (for two years) PCs without Windows, at least in some countries.
Not exactly this topic but related to the bundling issue: As bigger university we don't need a windows licence but a windows update. Once I've asked our software reseller (anyhow a Microsoft Gold Certified Partner) about this issue. The answer was: "For Microsoft there are no PCs without a preinstalled OS." (Microsoft made, I suppose.)
Linked to the main topic, this shows the irrelevancy of self-built PCs in business or at least in edu contexts. (I'm not sure anymore, but I thought I had the same conditions when I've worked for a bigger company buying licences from the same reseller...)
So a PC is more than the sum of its parts. Built together there is also an OS. Creepy!
You went against groupthink. what do you expect?
And now watch as my point is reinforced by someone modding this post troll...
You have a valid point, for you, linux is not the right choice. However, groupthink on slashdot doesn't seem to understand the concept of true free choice.
At least you are able to say why you want to use Windows, the extent of most peoples excuses for using linux on here extend as far as "cuz winblowz r sucks lol".
Not that an excuse should be needed. Free choice, remember.
He can't be playing the Wii, he's spill his drink!
Thats a pretty large logic leap. Most customers just want to get things done and don't know/care how. Most people don't give a shit about Windows. And an ever increasing number of the most used software is cross-platform and open source.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Retail markup. The retailer has to be able to make money on that software, or they aren't going to carry it. You can't sell a retailer something for $50 and tell them to sell it for $50, they'll probably want to sell it for $100. When Dell refunds you money, they aren't refunding the marked up price, since the markup is on the whole PC, they refund you their purchase price. Also their markup on the software is probably lower since it's just part of a whole package to make the package more attractive.
FYI MS offers volume discounts to other large organizations. My university pays $54 per copy of Office we want. However, as similar to Dell, there's no support, we have to deal with the media, etc.
I mean, the guy got a refund from Dell, but did Dell get a "refund" from Microsoft? I don't think so. That money probably just came straight out of Dell's customer support budget.
depends on how many hours. spend 2 hours on it, that's $26.25 per hour.
but anyway, at least read the summery. it says it was "more a victory in principle than anything else".
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Realize that whatever license texts appear on screen, you don't practically accept the license until you activate windows. Before activation you could easily just format the hard drive a few times and wipe all proof of ever reading the license at all.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
The first time a major vendor offers full-what-they-paid-Microsoft-for-it no-hassle Windows refund, it will hit the blogosphere like a breath of fresh air.
Hobbyists and others will prefer to do business with that vendor.
You can't buy that kind of advertising. Well, not cheaply anyways.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
So, let's see. I can take several hours of my life out to talk through this on the phone (let's be optimistic and say three) all to make $52.50, or I could just stay at the office with those three hours and make more than that.
when you meant to say
So, let's see. I can take several hours of my life out to talk through this on the phone (let's be optimistic and say three) all to make $52.50, or I could just stay at the office and not bother to take any direct positive action myself, instead preferring someone else to fight all of my battles for me.?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
This laptop was purchased through the small business section of Dell and they didn't offer a no-OS option.
They do offer some machines without an OS, but they're PCs and servers.
The OS was the only thing that you couldn't remove.
Could you get it without the BIOS? How much does that reduce the overall price by?
I cannot believe that you say this like you're actually *PROUD* of it.
How about demonstrating *REAL* strength of conviction and character by running a *FREE LEGAL ALTERNATIVE* rather than an illegal Windowss Vista copy? Surely that would send a much stronger message to Microsoft about their pricing and give them less of a justification for punishing legal users with the likes of DRM because of your activities.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Principle? No way. If he cared about principle, he wouldn't be buying a Dell laptop which came preinstalled with Windows, and then demand a refund. He would buy a computer with Linux preinstalled, or buy a computer with no OS at all and then install Linux on it. That there are no Linux laptops available is a myth: see list at bottom of message. The best way to support Linux is to support Linux laptop builders, not to throw more money at Dell. Maybe the Dells are cheaper. Fine, then buy the Dell and throw the Windows away. I think it's ridiculous to buy the Dell and demand refunds. I don't smoke and have no gizmos, so I demand that Honda give me a refund for the cigarette lighter in the car. I don't need his and hers sinks, so I demand the home builder give me a refund for one sink in the bathroom. I don't need the knives in the silverware set I just bought, so I demand a refund from Oneida. I don't need the Print Screen or SysRq buttons on the keyboard, so I demand a refund for them. Ridiculous.
http://www.linuxcertified.com/
http://www.emperorlinux.com/
http://www.shoprcubed.com/
http://www.kc-computers.com/
Penny - plain text accounting
Or off topic
The article was not about whether you want to play games and keep windows. It was about not having to pay the microsoft tax if you don't use windows.
He is in front of, not necessarily playing a game. Everyone knows there's little else to do with a PS3 than play Blu-Ray movies on them.
There are some "games" available for it. But as of yet there are no "games" that don't require quotation marks.
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
Perhaps there are aspects of Dell the guy wanted to stick with? Like, for instance, their (last I checked) glorious easy-to-work-on-under-the-hood cases? I haven't seen many new cases lately, but from what I have seen you can't beat Dell for opening up and fidgeting with parts with a minimum of trouble, tools, and cramps.
If I could buy Dell cases alone, I would. Barring that, buying a whole computer and getting a refund for the OS seems like a reasonable option.
The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
It's not your fault Dell does not make things easy, but you can help them see the light. Together, we can make this abuse a money loser.
The reason this makes sense is because it forces Dell to go through the wasteful process they have in place. Done enough times, the process will change. No one can afford to tie up their phones and support staff over a $50.00 refund they will have to give you if they don't want to break the law.
There are a lot of people who use free software exclusively and the potential for a whole lot more. Free Software finds it's way onto more than 30% of computers, if you include big packages like GIMP and Firefox. Most of those people may correctly suspect that a free operating system is the easiest way to get and keep those applications. If so much as 5% of Dell users spend the time demanding a refund for software they don't intend to use, Dell will be forced to change for the better. That change for the better will remove on more barrier to free software use - the computer without an OS will be cheaper to the end user as it always should have been.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
> I can take several hours of my life out to talk through this on the phone (let's be
> optimistic and say three) all to make $52.50, or I could just stay at the office with
> those three hours and make more than that.
That's a shame that you don't work at a company where you can do both.
Dell sells a product with an explicit offer to return a component for a refund under certain conditions. Did the terms of sale presented when you purchased the Honda/house/silverware offer a refund of the cost of the unused component? If not then you're not provided comparable scenarios. Why does it anger you to hear about customers satisfying the conditions to obtain the offered refund?
Says a comment on Linux.com:
I'm not mad that he got a refund; good for him that he spent all that time to get $50 even though he knew the machine came with Windows and he knew he wouldn't want it. But it's ridiculous that he claims this is about "principle." If he wants to support Linux, go get a system with no OS or a system with Linux preinstalled. Nagging Dell the megacorp for $50 is not the best way to support Linux, not when there are vendors out there who really do want to support Linux on laptops.
Penny - plain text accounting
Yeah, you couldn't go to the "Notebooks - No OS" section of Pricewatch and buy one of the thousands they list: http://www.pricewatch.com/notebooks_no_os/
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Rather than jumping through hoops like this user did to get rid of the default Windows install, why is it so difficult for Dell to just include a "No operating system installed" option when customizing their desktop/notebook products? You can have it default to a pre-installed version of Windows, but if someone just didn't want an OS preinstalled on their Dell, how does that violate anything? Can anyone shed some light on this?
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Clearly, you and many like you **still** pretend that Microsoft is subject to market forces.
The conventional quickie-mart concept of "supply and demand" does not apply.
Microsoft is, in economic terms:
1. Monopoly
2. Price Maker
In plain english that means they set a price above a competitive market rate. That destroys the surplus value to consumers, and raises the price of hardware Windows runs on.
Third, support costs. If Dell is selling the software, and willing to be the first line of support, that means that they are willing to take on support costs and therefore lower Microsofts.
There are so many false assumptions in that statement I don't know where to begin. I'll simply say the statement bears no resemblence to how "support" is managed inside the PC business.
Fourth, distribution costs. Shipping thousands of OEM copies to one customer
Another statement that bears no resemblance to reality. You have no idea the *how* Dell gets its windows cd's. There are many ways that it is done in the industry most of which allow the parent (ex. microsoft) keeping no inventory whatsoever.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I'm afraid you've just contradicted your own argument - you used the word "most".
No-one's denying that he's in the minority of Dell users but the fact is that he wanted a Dell machine but not with Windows - end of story.
Why is this any different to you going to a car showroom and wanting the car in a specific colour with a specific set of extras. Didn't Henry Ford make only black Model-T Fords until people started to ask for different colours?
Isn't it the role of any corporation in this capitalist society of ours to offer what the consumer wants the way that the customer wants it?
And why are all the Windows people getting so heated about this? He's not asking Dell to support Linux so it's not as though Windows users will need to pay higher prices from Dell.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Because MS won't give them the same bulk deal.
This will means it costs more to put MS on the computers.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The EULA in question is the one presented by Windows as distributed by Dell. Dell and Microsoft worked out an agreement for Dell to ship Microsoft's product. The EULA that is displayed by Dell's OEM copy of Windows says that Windows can be returned for a refund. Dell could have worked out an agreement with Microsoft to ship a copy of Windows that does not include that term in the EULA, but they didn't. As has been demonstrated elsewhere in this thread, Dell does offer machines with FreeDOS and even Linux pre-installed, so they acknowledge that home customers want computers without Windows. Exercising the right to return the distributed copy of Windows for a refund is not nagging, it's showing Dell that an option they offer on some models is also desired for other models.
Bought an IBM R50e laptop a few years ago and wanted to try for just the hell of it to return the XP license that is glued to the bottom of the laptop. Microsoft customer support offered their warmest apologies and said that the next time I should buy an laptop without a pre-installed OS. Right. Called IBM. According to their customer support I would have to return the whole laptop as the license is tied to this physical machine and the only way to get rid of the license it to get rid of the machine. Brilliant.
go to the dell site. from the notebooks tab choose Open-Source Notebooks. play their silly game a price one out. i picked a latitude 520N Duo with all defaults, it comes to $699. now go through and find the same machine with windows on it. look at a latitude 520 Duo. the same model, same processor, same memory, bigger HD, DVD-ROM instead of CD-ROM, with windows xp sp2. can you guess the price? $699. please explain that to me.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. -Gandhi
Ya know what, this sounds like 100% anti-ms rant Third, support costs. If Dell is selling the software, and willing to be the first line of support, that means that they are willing to take on support costs and therefore lower Microsofts. There are so many false assumptions in that statement I don't know where to begin. I'll simply say the statement bears no resemblence to how "support" is managed inside the PC business. Support is awful wherever you go but if people order from dell, the average home user, they will usually either look to more computer-savvy friends/relatives for help or call the number in the manual/documentation. This number will not certainly be Microsofts number, it might be the Indian call centre next door but it won't me Microsoft. As for prices above "market rate" it seems to me that computers with Windows in tend to weigh in as cheaper than, for the nearest example, most Macs. The only way you'll get something for nothing is using something like one of the many flavours of Linux, which for most home users just isn't really an option either due to having got used to Windows due to how common it is or just not wishing to do more work than they have to to get on the internet. Sure you know that x y or z is a good idea, but just try to sell your idea to someone that doesn't want to know about the plus points and simply wants to get on the internet and check their emails. 99% of the time you fight a losing battle.
The geek that actually likes Windows. I got cookies.
Actually, I would have modded Cheirdal a Troll. This topic has nothing to do with Linux. A person was given the right to return the software with EULA that he didn't agree with that he didn't see before purchasing.
Also what if you already own Windows and don't want to pay for another copy.
I don't need his and hers sinks, so I demand the home builder give me a refund for one sink in the bathroom.
:)
Funny you should mention that. We just did this very thing. Got some other upgrade in exchange for the extra sink (several hundred dollars, in case you're wondering). Why WOULDN'T you negotiate on things like that when someone builds it to your specification?
I also haven't seen a car built in the past 5 years that comes with a cigarette lighter, or ashtray for that matter. These days, they're extras that you have to ask (and pay) for. The place where the ashtray normally goes now has a sticker on it that says "not an ashtray".
On the bright side, you're only the second Slashdotter to spell "ridiculous" properly this week, so you have my respect
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Here, I'll help.
Windows version: none. Are you saying they don't track which machines went out with Windows 95 or Vista Pro?
Hrm, looking at my original post, no it does not appear I said that. I said that offering an additional option of operating system costs money that is probably not worth the increased business from having the option.
I cited having to add an item to the assembly process as an example, but it was just one example.
You mention that Dell already tracks what OS shipped on each computer. So what? The increased costs are not just in remembering what OS was on the computer when you sold it.
Increased costs also come from other areas. There's a cost in giving a user a choice they may not understand - confusion may cost you sales, and it may cost you more money on customer service inquiry. Most people know that 512 MB is better than 256 MB. Most users do not know what the difference is between Windows and Linux.
Most importantly, when you customize a Dell, there are *NO* options you can select that will result in you getting a computer you can't turn on and use. You can't select NO hard drive. You can't select NO memory. And they're not going to have an option for you to select NO OS, because then people will select it and start getting computers that don't work.
Remember also that Dell supports their own hardware. If someone gets it, and it doesn't work, Dell gets the phone call. So even if they offer Windows AND Linux, when people choose Linux, and then go to install a program that they expect to work that does not work on Linux, Dell gets that call too.
Adding an option for No OS or Linux to consumer-model desktops and laptops just does not make sense for Dell to do. The number of people who would like to use Linux who would be pleased by the option is far, far, far less than the number of customers who will end up with computers that they think, even though it's because of their own ignorance, are broken. Dell does not care whether the customer thinks they have a broken computer because the customer is ignorant. Dell only cares that the customer thinks they got a broken computer.
Another cost is support. Fielding people who can support Windows 95 and Windows XP is a whole different ball game than fielding support that can handle Windows XP and Linux.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Dell does have Linux available on some computers - specifically, high-end workstations. But all that shows is that it's profitable to offer high-end workstations with !windows while trying to offer consumer computers with !windows is not.
It isn't any more reasonable for Dell to offer 'No Windows' or 'Linux' than it is for them to offer 'No Video Card' or a video card from a non-partnered vendor. You buy the computer, you get the video cards they make available. If you don't like it, you don't get to pull it out and send it back. The only reason you get a refund on Windows is because of the license agreement.
Or, put another way, if YOU want Linux on your computer, don't buy your computer at Dell. It's not their obligation to offer Linux if they think it's more trouble for them than it's worth.
paintball
Increased costs are not limited to the assembly process.
Having a 'No OS' option does one thing none of the other options do:
It allows for the customer to make a choice that results in them receiving a computer that does not work.
There's a big difference between whether a CD is included or not and whether the computer does anything when you turn it on.
paintball
You bought the hardware as a unit but the software is not really part of that unit. The software also has a licensing agreement that does not apply to that hardware.
It's only fairly recently thast the OS has been seen as separate from the hardware. The OS was definitely part of my Amiga, and is generally considered a key part of a Palm, or a Sun workstation. Granted, the Palm and the Amiga didn't have an EULA (and I have no idea about the Sun), but in that case doesn't this mean I should be able to get a refund on the driver for my printer? Can I get a refund from Apple for the OS? Perhaps I could in both cases.
I see the argument but I'm still not sure I 100% agree that you should be able to get a refund for just the OS. Dell were happy(ish) to oblige but it's not something that's been really tested in court, and most people want the OS as part of their computer so it's probably not something that anyone wants to make a big deal over.
You need to check out HP... suddenly EVERY SINGLE ONE of their business computers is available as a "Linux" model (actually a freeDOS install) and the amount saved is MUCH more than a measly $52. On a lower priced model, you can save 25% on the cost of the computer:
For example...
HP site: HP Compaq 2000 series (two models):
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Pro $637
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Home $557
dx2200 microtower base model, "Alternate OS" $487
Wow! $150 difference from XP Pro and $70 from XP Home! That is the *FIRST TIME* I have *EVER* seen a true, correct, and reasonable difference in the price. Could HP be doing something neat? I actually checked EVERY LINE of the quote to make sure that wasn't a mistake.
So... in this case, you really can avoid an almost 24% tax!
Certainly that is the only model. NO- they offer "configure Linux PC" on the entire 5000 line (4 more models) and get this- the difference is *$167* this time. And $160 on the entire 7000 line (three more models). In fact, every single small, medium, and large business line and even workstation line is available with "Alternate OS" (even business laptops!). You only lack the choice with their "Home" computers. Good going, HP!
I am not saying that MS-Windows isn't *worth* the $160 to some people. But it is worth $0 to people that want to install something other than MS-Windows or already own an MS-Windows individual or site license.
Now we need HP to do this with their home line too, and hopefully the other vendors will follow.
To your very nicely put explanation that the customer normally thinks something they have done wrong or have misunderstood is the manufacturer's fault, let me offer my two rules of customer service:
Rule 1. The customer is always wrong.
Rule 2. Never even hint this to the customer.
The guy who could have made more more money flipping burgers for minimum wage at McD's?
What he has is a token refund check and five minutes fame from a post to Slashdot. Dell meanwhile will go on its merry way selling millions of laptops with the default OEM Windows install
The best way to support Linux is to support Linux laptop builders, not to throw more money at Dell. Maybe the Dells are cheaper. Fine, then buy the Dell and throw the Windows away. I think it's ridiculous to buy the Dell and demand refunds.
I agree that we should support Linux laptop builders, but
- There may be reasons that I want a specific hardware.
- There is no reason that we should be forced to think that
M$ Windows is the normal. It is better that it is an option, which you
pay for. This will make people think what they really want, and this will be beneficial for Linux laptop builders.
- Microsoft does not want it to be an option, this is a very good reason why we should work for it becoming an option
- Those that want Windows should of course get it, but not for "free"
That were my 5cThe commodity PC running Windows is dirt cheap. That is why Walmart walked away from OEM Linux.
He meant he'll be watching pr0n on a DVD playing on his PS3, and by 'cocktail' he didn't mean a drink.
Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
Dell needs Windows to make money. Have you ever purchased a Dell? There is incredible amount of shareware and crippleware on a Dell. Do you think Dell is including this software out of the goodness of it's heart? No, everything icon added on the build was paid for. And if you've bought a Dell, specially Dell Home PC there's A LOT of paid placement.
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/defa ult.aspx
An easy find with Google.
Doesn't everyone here know that you are better off for a home computer just putting simple parts together instead of paying a lot more for a pre-assembled machine and an MS Windows licence?
Parent has a really good point. Considering the number of people who will ever hear about this refund, and the number of those who are eligible for a refund, and the number of those who want a refund, and the number of those who will actually bother, Dell and Microsoft aren't going to be in any kind of trouble. But I could sure use 52 bucks.
:)
If enough of you think 52 bucks isn't a big deal, on the other hand, let me know, and I'll setup a P.O. box you can send it to
Actually I think Dell is in the perfect position to offer at least one or two flavors of Linux/BSD because of their control of the hardware just as Apple has. Controlling both the hardware and software that goes into their machines is Apple's secret to having a stable OS and application suite. For that matter, Dell could even offer it's own distro customized for Dell's standard hardware configurations. If they did that, I might even be tempted to buy a Dell myself instead of putting a machine together from scratch and wrestling with Linux over device drivers, screen resolution and refresh rate, etc. Maybe I could even *finally* have a version of Linux/BSD that lets me use the sidebuttons on my Logitech mice as I can under Windblows. :-)
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
that's rediculous!
... yes!
Hmm, is that domain taken
Until DuPont invented a quick-drying, spray-on, paint, color was for the custom body trade. Expensive and tedious handcraft work. Ford's customers weren't asking for color, they were asking for cheap.
You want the niche product? You go to the niche dealer and pay the niche price.
I have a small business (structural type of engineering) and run two Dell notebooks. My primary notebook is on FC (yes, I still have the windows disk) and I've been very happy with it. While the above companies can provide linux-ready notebooks, how many can repair on-site next business day? I use my notebooks for number crunching and in the field; so far, Dell has replaced four motherboards, a battery, a mouse and an LCD screen--each in less than 24 hours and the costs covered by my extended service plan. I do suggest to other owners of small businesses that cannot afford an in-house tech staff to buy middle of the line Dell's with extended on-site next day service because the cost of losing one man day exceeds the extra cost of the service plan. To not have such a service plan would result in at least two days of downtime because someone would have to come in to diagnose and fix whatever problem exists--to me that is not a prudent financial decision in running a small business. Could someone in the office fix whatever problem exists? Probably. Is it an efficient use of resources? Probably not.
Sure, provide Windows but make the Windows partition 50% of the disk.
Then it is easier to install Linux for dual boot. Dell spends very little on OEM Windows licenses so the cost to me of having Windows is very small. However, getting a PC with half the disk unused makes life simpler.
"Maybe the Dells are cheaper."
I just wanted to chime in and say that Dell offers VERY nice screens for laptops. They were one of the first to offer 1600 by 1200 on a laptop, and the viewing angles and black points are suprisingly good. Other laptop manufacturers out there have interesting hardware that not everybody else sells. (I recall that Saeger had laptops with two optical drives.. that's kinda neat, at least for some people.) For some people, it's just not as simple as "go find another retailer". They all cut corners in different places to keep the costs down. Some of those corners are very important to people.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
My reply was meant to be (somewhat) humorous... if it wasn't, please ignore it :)
But, to get back on the subject: although it would be 'nice' to be able to go to a PC manufacturer and choose 'a la carte' software, why do people seem to expect this from a manufacturer?
It is possible to purchase a PC without bundled software. It may not be available from Dell, but that's a decision that Dell has apparently made (for business reasons). So be it. If you don't want the bundled software, go somewhere else.
Before I get everyone jumping all over me: I'm responding to the post that's asking why you can't get a refund for 'other' bundled software. If Microsoft/Dell say that you can get a 'refund' for Windows, then you're entitled to it (based on whatever their terms/conditions are). If other bundled software doesn't give the consumer that option, then that's the way it goes. You chose to purchase a PC with that 'bundle'. You could have chosen another PC that doesn't include 'bundled' software.
Even if I install Linux (like on my office PC), I'd still keep Windows XP - it's still useful. I can run it on vmware server on Linux.
What people should do if they ever want windows is INSIST on XP instead of Vista!
If almost everybody stays with XP and DirectX 9 and doesn't move on to Vista. Then Windows XP+DX9 could become a defacto standard that even Microsoft can't get rid of (just like Intel can't get rid of x86 - they tried and failed with their Itanic, and when IBM tried to switch to MCA).
Then the jobs of people doing Wine, Crossover office, Cedega and more become a lot easier - they then have a fixed target instead of multiple moving targets.
Be realistic and ignore the fanboys out there, there are many valid reasons for wanting Windows. XP makes a good substitute for Vista, (until more and more people start switching to Vista).
But there is no Linux substitute for Windows yet. My proposal will make it more likely for there to be one.
Just a look at Vista will tell you that Microsoft is no longer improving things significantly or meaningfully, so we might as well freeze Windows, and be able to spend more time and resources on innovating elsewhere.
If we hijack Windows from Microsoft, then Microsoft will be like a BIOS vendor when it comes to Windows. Anyone remember "IBM compatible PC"?
So everyone, start telling Dell, HP et all to preload and sell XP instead of Vista.
get a linux laptop, from vendor like emperorlinux.com (I'm not affiliated with that company) I remember when I was going to purchased my laptop in bestbuy, I brought a Knoppix CD and asked the guy if I can insert and boot the CD so I can test out the hardware if it's compatible with knoppix, they didn't allow me. Then at checkout they tried to offer me some software, like Norton Internet Security, and I told them I'm going to wipe the hard drive and install linux on it, he insisted I will still need the Norton to protect me - LOL -
In addition to the links the previous two posters have given you, try system76.com. There are others. I personally would rather do business with a company that will ship a box with linux on it rather than buy from dell and then spend hours getting a refund, and I think it sends a better message, but either way, don't use Windows and don't pay for Windows.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
>"it doesnt add cost to them if the default is none."
Yes it does.
If they do that they'll start getting thousands of support calls saying "I switched my computer on and it doesn't work".
No sig today...
Microsoft originally required that only Microsoft OS could be installed but this was illegal so they did the next best thing. BTW Dell use to sell computers with Linux installed. I don't know if they do any more but instead of being cheaper they charged more because they can't just grab one off of an assembly line. It takes special attention and therefore costs more. So Microsoft is still leveraging there monopoly power through their price breaks given to vendors who won't sell a bare PC.
I don't see how offering Linux preinstalled will cost more than having Windows preinstalled. All Dells are supposed to be custom built so all they'd need to do is add a hdd bin with Linux. If anything because Linux is either free or costs less than Windows having Linux preinstalled should be cheaper. The only reason it would be more expensive is if Dell still had to pay MS for a license for the PC. If true then I'd imagine this would be a break of the MS settlement, that's they're still acting like a monopoly. If so then why hasn't MS been brought back into court? Stupid question, after the Clinton admin had them on the ropes, the Bush admin let them walk away without so much as a slap on the wrist.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Well I'm afraid then that you are no less "evil" than Microsoft in my view - your continued activities (and the activities of others like you) will give Microsoft, the RIAA, the record companies & music companies all the justification they need to impinge on the rights of everyone (not just dishonest people like you but honest people like me also).
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Do you really think ms gets money to install "Desktop Icons" and "Startup Menu Items"?
And thanks for pointing at the de-crapifier. I've been doing a format / re-install the OS when clients buy a box from Dell. Any idea if it completely removes the AOL stuff (the AOL uninstall does not - at least for ver 9.0 )
Are you the type of person that never disputes false credit card charges? If so I have a lot of stuff to "sell" to you over here.
The EULA is a contract, and by contract law there must be a way to "refuse" to sign the contract and not accept the products. If Microsoft would want to not allow this occur, they'd have to drop the EULA.
I also haven't seen a car built in the past 5 years that comes with a cigarette lighter, or ashtray for that matter. These days, they're extras that you have to ask (and pay) for. The place where the ashtray normally goes now has a sticker on it that says "not an ashtray".
x 2-features/?p=mech
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_highlander_hybrid_4
2007 toyota Highlander Hybrid 4x2 standard features (MSRP $32,490
"* Cigarette Lighter With Ashtray "
I've never bought a new car, got plenty of milage out of used cars my self, so I'll have to double check because no one wants you to smoke in a new car. And the first thing to go if there was a cigarette/cigar lighter would be the lighter to charge the cell phone, well unless ou have something like the highlander or other SUV/VAN where the ashtray has it's own lighter and seperate accessory plugs.
In fact, the only place i've seen the ashtray with a label on it "not an ashtray" are on rental cars. I've not noticed such a thing on an average passanger vehicel. But I can't imagine a car without an ashtray, where else would you put your coins or factory ciggerette lighter if equiped?
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
What you say seems logical but Dell still must prepare the hard drives. Since they only would sell a small fraction of Linux
drives the cost of setup is distributed over a few hundred drives rather than many thousands.
I'm not sure if this is what is really going on but that's their story.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
>Did it come with an End User Licence Agreement which stated
>that if you did not agree to the licence you could return it
>for a refund?
If you do not agree to the contract, what is said in it is irellevant and no one would be bound by it, so why would it matter what is said in it if you do NOT agree to it?
It's not a contract it's an "End User Licence Agreement", and even if it was a contract - nobody's allowed to force you to agree to a contract. There already exists a contract at the point where you pay money and recieve a computer - if the computer then doesn't work as advertised the company that sold it to you is in breach (aside from any consumer legislation which may be relevant) - hence the offer of a refund if you do not agree to the EULA. Personally I think it's still questionable but Microsoft resellers seem to think this excuses them from selling goods which don't work properly (if you refuse the EULA - as is your right).
I lose more respect for the users of Slashdot every time I visit the site.