Why South Korea Is Shackled To Windows

baron writes with a blog post explaining in detail why 99.9% of S. Korea uses Windows. This amazing tale began in 1998 when Korea decided it couldn't wait for SSL to be standardized (which it was in 1999) and commissioned an ActiveX control for secure Web transactions. At first there was a secure Netscape plugin too, but we know how that story ended. Quoting: "This nation is a place where Apple Macintosh users cannot bank online, make any purchases online, or interact with any of the nation's e-government sites online. In fact, Linux users, Mozilla Firefox users, and Opera users are also banned from any of these types of transactions..." Now that Microsoft has made ActiveX more secure in Vista, every Web site in S. Korea is scrambling to get things working again and the government is advising citizens not to install Vista. At the end of all this work, they will still be a monoculture in thrall to Microsoft, with millions of users sitting behind some of the fattest pipes in the world.

Comments

Shackled to Windows?

[Apocalypse111]

But I thought Starcraft worked on Mac too...

Laugh. Its funny.

Re:Shackled to Windows?

[markov_chain]

Laugh. Its funny.

kekekeke

Re:Shackled to Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it is Starcraft which is still in very heavy play in S. Korea. They recognize a great game when they see it. Kudos to the grandparent.

Re:Shackled to Windows?

[KingEomer]

Bah, you beat me to it! Though, I must say that you structured it better.

Re:Shackled to Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

ruusperiruusperi

How easy to give up Freedom

[what about]

and how difficult to get it back

This is not just for Computing but the concept is more important than ever now, in Computing

Re:How easy to give up Freedom

[GreyPoopon]

and how difficult to get it back

What's stopping someone (in the government) from writing a new SEED-compatible applet that works on Firefox and/or Opera and on other operating systems? After all, there USED to be a plugin for Netscape.

Re:How easy to give up Freedom

[superangrybrit]

South Korea never lost any "freedom." They just settled for one OS and made it a standard for everyone.

Re:How easy to give up Freedom

[Poltras]

Standards is somewhat an antipod of the freedom to choose. We do not remove your freedom, but we do not provide you any serious compliant alternatives, and thus you don't have a real choice. See modern democracy as well. Reminds me of a certain Ford car, which you could choose the color.

Re:How easy to give up Freedom

[JaxWeb]

It isn't really a lack of freedom, is it?

Re:How easy to give up Freedom

[danbeck]

Using your argument, the lack of standards is an antipode of the freedom to chose. It does not remove your freedom, but it gives you no real quantifiable option to choose from, nor does it allow you to maximize the effects of your freedom of choice. Sure, you can choose any alternative you wish, but if you are the only one using that alternative, what good is it? By not having standards, I do not have the freedom to choose one, nor the freedom to freely interoperate with anything else.

Your comment, as well as mine, is absurd because the freedoms we are discussing are the antipode (if I could use your own term) to other's freedom. Your freedom can only be achieved by restricting the freedom of others to create, in this particular case, a standard.

It's dangerous for one to think that his freedom extends beyond the freedoms of others. See modern abortion rights as well.

I have the solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like those loonies at the WTO should get involved. A national government and banking sector creating a monopoly in a separate industry is worse than privatized public transport. I propose an embargo until they remedy the situation.

Fattest pipes?

[Achra]

I know that there is a joke in here somewhere..

Re:Fattest pipes?

[wild_quinine]

It definitely should say tubes.

Re:Fattest pipes?

[illegalcortex]

At least it didn't say millions of users sitting on some of the fattest pipes in the world.

Re:Fattest pipes?

[Shaper_pmp]

In Korea only old people use non-IE browsers.

Re:Fattest pipes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well they certainly don't have the longest...

When in doubt, make up your own cryptosystem...

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

... the NSA loves you when you do!

Re:When in doubt, make up your own cryptosystem...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if making up your own cryptosystem is somewhat valid, though - so long as you layer it on top of one that actually works.

For example - assuming someone can crack DES / AES / Twofish, etc - I wonder if doing a cascade of ROT13/DES/ROT13 would protect you from the tools that merely run the standard DES cracker against it.

Of course a cascade of real cryptosystems would be even safer, but of course that would add significant cost. I wonder if cascading the add-your-own on top of a real one would add much of the benefit at little extra cost.

Re:When in doubt, make up your own cryptosystem...

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

For example - assuming someone can crack DES / AES / Twofish, etc - I wonder if doing a cascade of ROT13/DES/ROT13 would protect you from the tools that merely run the standard DES cracker against it.

At best, it would double the work factor (hooray for 1 bit of security!). More likely, it wouldn't even do that much. Still more likely, it'll make your future protocol switch (you'll eventually be interoperating with the rest of the world, after all) more vulnerable to attack.

The Anti-Massachusetts

[hey]

Kinda makes you think that Massachusetts with their push for open formats, etc might
be on to something. (If you we're already thinking that.)

Re:The Anti-Massachusetts

[hey!]

Boston: 42 22' N 71 2' W

Seoul: 37 34' N 126 58' E

Which explains a lot; 126 58' E - 71 2' W = 198 00'.

In other words, we're practically 180 apart.

Re:The Anti-Massachusetts

[RealGrouchy]

Kinda makes you think that Massachusetts with their push for open formats, etc might
be on to something. (If you we're already thinking that.)

Put another way, maybe this lesson is why South Korea (as well as China) has mandated common chargers and data cables for cell phones.

- RG>

Like Geek heven..

[WarlockD]

Just Satan calls the shots.

Kind of bashing Windows I guess, but it makes me wonder if it's even possible to convert to more open standards at a reasonable price? Even with the "more secure" ActiveX controls, its still easier to modify those existing controls in VS than it is to rebuild the site under OSS.

Sigh. Owning a Monopoly must be nice.

Re:Like Geek heven..

[nine-times]

The first thing I wondered when I read this was, "Did they learn their lesson?" They standardized their entire country on a closed system, and when the vendor of that closed system initiates an arbitrary change, they're pretty much screwed and forced to rebuild things. In my mind, the smart thing would be to bite the bullet, drop Active X, and switch to Firefox and have a true multi-platform solution. Hell, if they can't do everything they require in an extension, they can go as far as making their own fork, and they'll retain that option in the future.

Really, this should be a lesson for everyone.

Re:Like Geek heven..

[Anonymous Coward]

Owning a Monopoly must be nice.

Owning the two dark blue properties just before GO is even nicer.

Re:Like Geek heven..

[GimliGloin]

I always thought that the green ones just down the street were better... The rent is a little lower but there are three instead of two. So the probability of getting rent is higher... GSG

Re:Like Geek heven..

[bnenning]

Owning the two dark blue properties just before GO is even nicer.

The yellows and greens have better ROI because they're landed on more frequently.

That's what you get

[mobby_6kl]

when the government jumps the gun and does what it thinks is best for everyone.

Re:That's what you get

[MagikSlinger]

That's a half-truth. Industry can do the same thing (*cough* CORBA *cough*). The more important lesson here is: don't design for a particular base or technology. E.g., an encryption standard based on a single vendor's proprietary chip that no one else can make.

Re:That's what you get

[RAMMS EIN]

``when the government jumps the gun and does what it thinks is best for everyone.''

Why? Did the government _force_ them to use this tech?

Re:That's what you get

[Lord Ender]

Yeah, like the aqueducts.

In other news, broad generalizations are always wrong.

Apparently

[killa62]

Apparently, the dupe detection software was written in south korea and uses activex to authenticate

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/24/210234

too bad kdawson just upgraded to vista

Re:Apparently

[multisync]

Apparently, the dupe detection software was written in south korea and uses activex to authenticate

This isn't a "dupe." The article you linked to was about South Koreans being advised to avoid Vista because their infrastructure is closely tied to Active X. The blog posting we are currently commenting on describes how the South Koreans found themselves in this situation.

Here's a link you might find interesting.

Re:Apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't have a sense of humor

I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were joking. Sometimes it's a little hard for humour to come across in terse little messages like these. Some people use smiley faces, or other methods to indicate that the post was meant to be a joke, and not taken seriously.

Of course, you could also try actually being funny; that works sometimes, too.

Re:Apparently

[suckmysav]

LOL!

Diversity

[Zebra_X]

Kids, diversity is bad, MMMM KAY?

Re:Diversity

[glomph]

Da more dey are stuck using the Minesweeper/Solitaire platform, da virse it gets.

Starcraft in South Korea

[AHumbleOpinion]

"But I thought Starcraft worked on Mac too..."

It's called World of Warcraft...

I don't think you realize the popularity of Starcrft in South Korea. It's almost a national sport, there are multiple cable TV channels that show tournaments live with play-by-play commentators.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[drinkypoo]

That's just fucking inexplicable to me. Starcraft is the most formulaic game I've ever seen. The way the game has been designed, there is a very limited number of strategies worth using. How many zerg rushes can you watch? And is one actually different from the next in any way that matters?

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[LHX]

You forgot that people will watch a staring contest if there is $10K to be won.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[jorgevillalobos]

Maybe it's just not for you. What I found very appealing about Startcraft was the fact that you had sufficiently distinct races, while at the same time very well balanced. Most games preceding Starcaft had races that differed in colors and names, mostly.

I don't find competitive online play very amusing for these types of games because, as you said, it's all about being efficient and rushing with a large amount of units. You also correctly pointed out that Zergs are usually the way to go.

Starcraft in campaign mode is one of the most enjoyable game experiences I've ever had. But that's just me.

On a related note: Starcraft 2. I think I would be totally dizzy rotating the screen for 4 hours.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[drinkypoo]

Maybe it's just not for you. What I found very appealing about Startcraft was the fact that you had sufficiently distinct races, while at the same time very well balanced. Most games preceding Starcaft had races that differed in colors and names, mostly.

Maybe you should just read my comment. I'm not talking about playing starcraft, although I think that's boring too. I'm talking about watching it. See, this comment talks not about how Starcraft is a wonderful game, but about how watching it is a major pastime in SK. Then I replied to that comment. The implication in a comment (especially one in which your first sentence clearly refers to the parent comment) is that you're still talking about the same thing the previous comment was talking about, and you have to specify otherwise if you're changing the topic.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[jorgevillalobos]

It's a matter of perspective. The comment you linked mentioned the televised competitions as an example of the popularity of the game in SK, so I assumed you were responding to the topic, not the example. You are correct in that I missed the word "watch", which is the only hint that you were actually referring to just that. Either way, since you think playing it is boring, my comment still applies, offtopic or not.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Dashcolon]

Clearly you've never seen the game played at a high level. Seriously, how conceited and arrogant do you have to be to assume that a game that has risen to such heights is simple and formulaic? It's a great game, one that has undergone many strategic revolutions. The gameplay has changed many, many times. Strategy, tactics, and micro-management of units are all dynamic properties of the game.

If you're interested in educating yourself, if not for your own interest, then for the sake of not looking like a jackass, visit http://www.teamliquid.net/ -- an English website devoted to covering Korean pro starcraft leagues.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to disagree. If you have seen the matches between the professionals you wouldn't make such statements. Because the races are well balanced, it allows players to come up with many strategies.

It's different way of thinking really. Koreans view it as another sport. It's just like watching a football game or basketball game. I can't think of a good reason for me to watch a golf game, but it doesn't mean everyone else would feel the same.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, this comment proves beyond doubt that you're not a jackass.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Apocalypse111]

Starcraft and TA both have their high points. Starcraft offers a variety of specialized abilities on several units that can greatly change the strategic gameplay - for example, Zerg being able to burrow, Terrans getting into bunkers and having their buildings capable of flight, etc. Starcracft also forces different types of choices, as not all units can hit everything else (ie. a Zergling being unable to attack a flying unit). Total Annihilation, on the other hand, focuses more on large-scale strategy and counters (easier to accomplish when your army size is not limited by control). Individual units in TA are simultaneously more and less versatile than those in Starcraft - for example, even a lowly AK or PeeWee can shoot at aircraft (although they might not do so very well), but aside from move and attack, they don't have any special abilities.

See that? You can be a fan of both games, appreciate the differences, and still not be an ass-hat! By claiming partisanship and ignoring the other side of things, you're as bad as those you despise in the Starcraft camp.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[drinkypoo]

But I can just not care if people think I'm an asshat! That's much easier. Anyway, I appreciate that starcraft has units that are genuinely different between sides - In fact TA ruined this over time by making the two sides more and more like each other to the point where if you just install the game and the 3.0c (IIRC) update and don't install any expansion packs, they've already kind of blown it in that department. But I hate everything else about the game, and it's still true that there are only a small handful of useful strategies.

I find TA to be a more "realistic" game in most ways, save for resource depletion, which is another feature that weaned me off of blizzard's RTSes as it annoys the piss out of me. Probably the best example is that which you bring up about peewees being able to shoot at aircraft, albeit not very well. TA doesn't have any melee-only units that I can think of... but the important thing is that ten rockos are more effective than a hundred peewees when a clump of twenty brawlers show up and start pouring bullets into your ground units. I think they have sufficient differentiation between units, just not between sides.

See that? You can be a fan of both games, appreciate the differences, and still not be an ass-hat! By claiming partisanship and ignoring the other side of things, you're as bad as those you despise in the Starcraft camp.

Ignoring? I played it, and found out I don't like it. It's not so much ignoring as avoiding.

But more to the point, this wasn't really about liking the game or not. It was about just how heart-stoppingly boring watching starcraft is. After you've seen good players compete five or ten times, you've seen just about everything you're likely to see.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[TheLink]

Some people don't like to watch American Football, some don't like watching baseball, some don't like watching golf, darts, snooker etc. And some don't like watching Starcraft.

Given the amount of micromanagement the top starcraft players do, there are actually a lot more strategies and tactics possible. You could go download and watch the replays of the top players.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Apocalypse111]

While it is true that there are only a few prominent strategies used in high-level Starcraft games in the beginning, this is only because they were found to have the right combination of versatility and effectiveness. Once the initial rush phase is over, if the various sides have survived then it becomes a whole different game, and much more individualized and reactive. Terrans and Protoss start setting up defensive structures, and can go in several different directions from there (for example, the Terrans could continue with marine-medic rushes to keep the enemy on their toes while building up to, say, battleships, nukes, goliath-siege tank groups, or others). That many games end in the first few minutes following the initial rushes is a testament to the players that pursue those strategies, being able to pull them off as well as they do. Add additional players and things get more interesting, as you have to not only beat your first target as fast as possible (or at least slow them down), but also defend your own base from the other players. Its strategy on a more micro-management level than TA, and one of the reasons I enjoyed TA was that it didn't require that level of nit-picking.

You are correct, TA had no melee units. One of the 3rd party units I remember was based off a Protoss Zealot (called the Zlot in-game), but it simulated melee attacks by having a projectile range of only the length of its arms.

TA did have some differentiation in sides, if only in that they favored different strategies with their units. Overall, the Arm units were faster, while the Core units were more heavily armed and armored. Still, as you say, some of this was lost with the units introduced later, the various sides becoming a more homogeneous.

On the subject of all things TA, you might check out the following...
TA Spring is an open source RTS project that largely recreated TA in a better engine, along with deformable terrain and other goodies.
Supreme Commander is Chris Taylor's new baby, a spiritual successor to TA with all kinds of new goodies, 3 different factions, to-scale nukes, and multi-monitor support!

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[drinkypoo]

Given the amount of micromanagement the top starcraft players do, there are actually a lot more strategies and tactics possible. You could go download and watch the replays of the top players.

Shit, if I wanted to watch micromanagement in action, I could have just stayed with some of my previous employers.

I guess that's why I don't just play RTSes all day. The units are too stupid.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[drinkypoo]

TA Spring is an open source RTS project that largely recreated TA in a better engine, along with deformable terrain and other goodies.

I've downloaded it but not played it. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend finally. If my car isn't too much a PITA. (Looks like I killed my battery, and maybe my alternator too, whee!)

Supreme Commander is Chris Taylor's new baby, a spiritual successor to TA with all kinds of new goodies, 3 different factions, to-scale nukes, and multi-monitor support!

Yeah, but their webpage is all-flash and more to the point doesn't work. I can't scroll the text down. I have the latest flash player. It's amateur hour over there... And the only place to download the high-resolution video is from fileplanet with a login. It's like they actually tried to stop me from finding out anything about their game that might convince me to buy it.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Directrix1]

Yes and it is called 'Blink or No Blink'

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Richard A Lake]

Hi res video
http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?fs=1&id=2 765

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Sigma 7]

You are correct, TA had no melee units. One of the 3rd party units I remember was based off a Protoss Zealot (called the Zlot in-game), but it simulated melee attacks by having a projectile range of only the length of its arms.

A better example is TA:K. It's not third-party, but it has plenty of melee units.

However, it showed a glaring flaw with the TA engine - there was no "Move-Fight" command. This was patched later, but it's something that is mandatory in RTS games.

TA did have some differentiation in sides, if only in that they favored different strategies with their units. Overall, the Arm units were faster, while the Core units were more heavily armed and armored. Still, as you say, some of this was lost with the units introduced later, the various sides becoming a more homogeneous.

If you exclude non-official units, there's still differences between the two sides. The most critical one is the game balance with some of the units - Pelican, as it has a targetting bug that makes it hard to hit when swimming, and Eraser, as it's sonar jamming capabilities make it next to impossible to find or destroy.

Of course, there is TA:Spring, which reproduces the TA engine in 3D.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

One could ask the same question of, say, football. What it boils down to is, people will watch almost anything, mostly because it doesn't require them to move or think. I guess this applies to South Korea too.

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[pablodiazgutierrez]

Heck, in the US watching poker is a passtime. Poker, for gawd's sake!

Re:Starcraft in South Korea

[try_anything]

Watching professional poker on TV is like sitting in a coffeehouse reading Finnegan's Wake. You get to enjoy a pleasant fantasy of being smart enough to appreciate it, and people who see you might assume you really are that smart.

Bent over their cross.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross,
when ignorance reigns, life is lost.

Re:Bent over their cross.

[Anonymous Coward]

Rage Against Rage Against The Machine

Botnet and FatPipes

[DieNadel]

We all know how good, greasy fat pipes are a botnet-master dream. Maybe that's why I see so much SPAM from S.Korean IPs.

Also, a major flaw in MS-Win could render this country's Internet infrastructure and systems useless.

They really should reconsider this decision. Strategically it isn't a good one. And I don't mean creating another monopoly with Linux or whatever, just give the users a choice, so that their OS environment gets more colored.

Re:Botnet and FatPipes

[Anonymous Coward]

"Also, a major flaw in MS-Win could render this country's Internet infrastructure and systems useless."

If you remember a few years back, the Slammer (SQL Server) virus did exactly that; the Internet in Korea was brought to a dead stop.

Shackled to...windows?

[shirizaki]

Just break the glass and escape through the window.

Alternatively...

[Corsican Upstart]

Alternatively, from the better-than-what-they're-using-in-north-korea department

Re:Alternatively...

[Anonymous Coward]

Surprisingly, no. North Korea's missile program runs on linux. Not that it seems to help them much, but it could obviously be worse....

Re:Alternatively...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought they were still using DOS.

Re:Alternatively...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? Celecovisions [sp?] rock!

wait?

[Tom]

This amazing tale began in 1998 when Korea decided it couldn't wait for SSL to be standardized (which it was in 1999) and commissioned an ActiveX control for secure Web transactions. Has anyone ever investigate which backroom dealings resulted in this decision? Decisions like this, with a multi-billion profit guarantee to a specific vendor, aren't made for technical merit. If you really believe that neither MS nor someone else with stakes in it (maybe some reseller?) was involved, I have a few bridges for sale...

Re:wait?

[inviolet]

Has anyone ever investigate which backroom dealings resulted in this decision? Decisions like this, with a multi-billion profit guarantee to a specific vendor, aren't made for technical merit. If you really believe that neither MS nor someone else with stakes in it (maybe some reseller?) was involved, I have a few bridges for sale...

Well said.

This tale still might have a silver lining, though. A single security vulnerability, properly exploited, could turn the entire economy of South Korea into a cautionary tale. For a decade afterward, at board meetings where purchasing or standardization decisions are being debated, people will randomly interject "But we could end up like South Korea!".

This is slashdot. Do we believe what we say about the perils of vendor lockin and closed-source? If so, then we should also believe that South Korea's predicament will eventually become a clear and obvious error.

Re:wait?

[drinkypoo]

This is slashdot. Do we believe what we say about the perils of vendor lockin and closed-source? If so, then we should also believe that South Korea's predicament will eventually become a clear and obvious error.

Uh, it's already a clear and obvious error that has cost them all interoperability, compromised security, and cost them piles of money. I think they're already a cautionary tale. The hard part is getting PHBs to believe that it could happen to them.

Re:wait?

[Random BedHead Ed]

Have another look at TFA. The government commissioned both an ActiveX control and a Netscape plugin, since those were the two major browsers at the time. Of course, the NS plugin became abandonware. So they did try to be impartial, just not open. Thus illustrating the importance of 'open.' As someone mentioned above, I have newfound respect for what Massachusetts is doing.

Re:wait?

[just_another_sean]

That would be great but I don't think it will happen. When Slammer hit S. Korea in 1/2005 they were one of the few global financial systems that were affected. They made a big stink about blaming MS and then went on, business as usual, without rethinking their reliance on a single vendor who is notorious for breaking standards.

Re:wait?

[cnelzie]

It already is a clear and obvious error.

    It's just that it wasn't so publicly shouted out as to the reason why. I cannot tell you how many attempts to break into my network come from IP Addresses in South Korea or how much spam my servers scrub away that originates in South Korea.

Re:wait?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It's already a cautionary tale. Blocking *.kr eliminated 50% of the spam I was getting from Windows spam zombies.

Re:wait?

[RAMMS EIN]

``It's already a cautionary tale. Blocking *.kr eliminated 50% of the spam I was getting from Windows spam zombies.'' ...and made the innocent suffer for the crimes of the guilty.

Re:wait?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Yes, I have made the Koreans suffer, more than it is possible to imagine. For the Koreans cannot sent mail to the Great Profane Muthafucka in the great nation of the America! And they weep! So sad! No mail, so sad!

Yes, I, Profane Muthafucka, am a monster. I have made the nation of Korea suffer because I drop their TCP connection attempts. I am deaf to their cries and their pain. I will block their port 25 connections until the end of the Earth, amen.

Re:wait?

[dpilot]

I more wonder who really waited. If Korea commissioned the ActiveX control in 1998, when was it actually delivered an deployed? (I didn't see it in the blog.) I can't imagine so significant a project happening in less than a year, from the word, "Go!" By the same token, I wonder how long it was from SSL standardization to deployable implementations. Assuming SSL followed an open-source type development model, I can't imagine that there weren't deployable solutions available prior to standardization, part of the "proof", and just waiting for the formal stamp of approval.

Again, which became usably deployed first, SEED or SSL?

Re:wait?

[jafac]

My guess:

If it's smarmy backroom deals, and South Korea - most likely has something to do with the Reverend Moon. . .

Re:wait?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this has to do with three major factors:

1. 90% of Korean DOS-Windows 95-NT installs in Korean Government and Korean Companies were pirated back in the mid-1990s.
2. Hangul Character sets were used most effectively in IE and Windows 95. Netscape's Hangul rendering sucked and was more buggy.
3. Big-Box Korean Retail companies that sold Win-tel packages sold Korean Windows with IE installed by default and they still do. Direct-X gaming had more to do with Win-tel dominance in Korea than anything else.

Not a dupe, merely...

[SighKoPath]

information on why the S. Korean government is urging users not to upgrade. Perhaps this would have been better included in the next slashback?

the concept of (meosi-ittah)

[Anonymous Coward]

...roughly translated as "it's stylish, fashionable, smart, cool, polished", is pervasive among Koreans.

They like bling, but it is usually devoid of substance.

things need to look cool, regardless of how pointless it is.

take one example: the KBS (www.kbs.com) website. the main page is impossibly heavy to load, and has a mixture of flash, java, activex and whatnot. all cruft, no real value except for the bling factor.

TCO Study?

[Mateo_LeFou]

Anyone? I'd love to see a widescale analysis of how much vendor lockin actually costs. When it's this bad I imagine it's disastrous

Re:TCO Study?

[cayenne8]

When I read this part: :"At the end of all this work, they will still be a monoculture in thrall to Microsoft, with millions of users sitting behind some of the fattest pipes in the world. "

I thought about that Twilight Zone episode where Burgess Merideth was finally alone in the world to read all his books.....and then broke his glasses.

In S. Korea....all that bandwidth, and nothing useful to use it with....

:-(

Re:TCO Study?

[nizo]

In S. Korea....all that bandwidth, and nothing useful to use it with....

I am guessing there are people who control hordes of zombie machines that would disagree.

Re:TCO Study?

[bl8n8r]

Disaster? That depends on which side of the lockin you are on.

Fattest Pipes in the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean tubes? Because tubes and pipes are totally different.

& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictatorshi

[Anonymous Coward]

Just imagine HAVING to use Windows, oh the humanity!

Just goes to show...

[YrWrstNtmr]

...that the grass is not always greener. Maybe now we can drop all the posts and stories about how the Koreans have it so much better with their massively fast pipes, and how the US is sooo far behind.

This is MS's fault how?

[Bacon Bits]

Yeah, I'm not getting how this is anybody's fault except S. Korea's. SEED is an open specification. There is no reason the Korean community can't develop a plug-in for other systems. All that is required is for the S. Korean CA to allow it. Again, that's S. Korea's fault.

The only fault of Microsoft's lies in an area that the author is grossly misinformed. He says "In IE 7 and in Vista, Microsoft has re-architected Active X controls in such a way to make them 'more safe' by requiring a user action for the control to run", and then links to a page about the Eolas patent resolution. Many places have had to recode websites and controls after this change. While it is Microsoft's fault for the implementation, the impact on S. Korea is entirely up to them.

Sorry, you made your bed.

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[michaelvkim]

There is no reason the Korean community can't develop a plug-in for other systems. Contrary to what this article is trying to say, there simply is no reason to develop a plug-in for other systems.
You need to understand the Korean mentality. It wouldn't have mattered if the government made Active-X the standard, or if they outlawed it completely. Hell, it wouldn't have mattered if the government didn't do anything. This would've happened regardless. The reason is that unlike in America where it's cool to be different and unique, the Korean mentality is to be as homogeneous as possible. Anybody "weird" is singled out and alienated. This mindset is embedded in their society, culture, personal and professional lives, and everything else they do.
The mere fact MS bundles IE with XP pretty much ENSURED that IE would be used by the vast majority of users in Korea.
Even if standards were opened to allow Firefox, Safari, or Opera access to everything online, I will bet that IE will still have 99.9% of the market. Simply because it's what everybody else is using.

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[CastrTroy]

Couldn't something like this be built into open source browsers like Firefox, without using active X? The reason they used activeX is because that was the only way of changing the functionality of IE. But if the browser was open source, they could just add the functionality right into the browser. Then users of all operating systems could do all this e-commerce stuff.

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[Anonymous Coward]

The mere fact MS bundles IE with XP pretty much ENSURED that IE would be used by the vast majority of users in Korea.

Right, but wouldn't the fact that MS followed up XP with Vista pretty much ensure taht Vista would be used by the vast majority of users in Korea? Wouldn't it pretty much ensure that the plugin would be ported to Vista/IE7?

On the other hand, now that Vista is pretty much ensured to be a failure in S. Korea, would they just all stick to XP forever, patching it themselves, or perhaps the government will even end up paying MS for long term support?

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[HalAtWork]

the Korean mentality is to be as homogeneous as possible. Anybody "weird" is singled out and alienated. This mindset is embedded in their society, culture, personal and professional lives, and everything else they do.

How did that come to be? How is it possible to raise an entire country of emotional bullies and not have it blow up on itself?

"For his intimates and those closer to home, Bush appears to be what is called an emotional bully. An emotional bully gains control using sarcasm, teasing, mocking, name calling, threatening, ignoring, lying, or angering the other and forcing him to back down. Bush administration insider accounts describe this sort of behavior from the president. He's well known for his dismissive remarks. His penchant for giving nicknames to everyone has its dark, bully's side. Naming people is a way to control them."

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this piece of ignorant racist garbage marked "interesting"?

Re:This is MS's fault how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's true. Live sometime in korea and you'll see.

Not WIndows Fault

[Creepy Crawler]

The problem is that Vista doesn't play well with a software program called Active-X that is widely used in Korean Internet sites.

No, the problem is that incompetently created websites use delicate nonportable nonstandard proprietary software that is only interoperative with one single obsolete platform.

Don't blame Vista; blame people who aren't responsible, experienced, or forward-looking enough to see why complying with standards is so necessary.

Now let's see how people will fix their glaring mistake. Will they "fix" it by repeating it (i.e. rewriting ActiveX controls to be compatible with Vista, so that they can get paid to screw their customers again in 5 years when the next version of Windows comes out) or will they fix it by removing the irresponsible dependencies?

Re:Not WIndows Fault

[oohshiny]

No, the problem is that incompetently created websites use delicate nonportable nonstandard proprietary software that is only interoperative with one single obsolete platform.

It's only "obsolete" because it was poorly designed in the first place and the vendor had to drop support for it in Vista. Although you can blame the web sites for being stupid and not anticipating that they were going to get screwed by Microsoft, Microsoft is still the primary party at fault here.

And if you think Vista's "advanced technologies" are going to look any better a few years down the road, well, you deserve what you get.

Re:Not WIndows Fault

[Creepy Crawler]

the posts a dupe too dude.

If editors can dupe stories without checking back a week, why should I care if I go post +5's?

Just post a canned response from the post I took.

Re:Not WIndows Fault

[Anonymous Coward]

You really should credit your source when you copy a post, though.

Copy without credit - plagiarism.
Copy with credit - research.

Re:Not WIndows Fault

[Creepy Crawler]

Too true..

I should have, but it was soo worth it to see Sloppy(14984) come and "congratulate" me ;-D

Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[michaelvkim]

Being Korean and known as somebody who's good with computers, a lot of my friends and family members ask me to look at their computer because "it's running too slow". At first I was more than happy to, but now I dread looking at a Korean computer because:

1. it's running Windows with IE and at least 3 extraneous toolbars

2. it hasn't been defragmented since the computer was first built

3. EVERY website HAS to install software to make it run properly

4. EVERY website the user has bookmarked has at least 5 megabytes of flash (and they're all advertisements)

Everybody in Korea signs up for everything, not knowing how useless the service is, how dangerous it is on their computer, and how much traffic it eats up. Just go to www.daum.net or www.naver.co.kr, the two most popular media portals in Korea. What's worse is that Koreans prefer that kind of interface over Google.

I'm not trying to bash Koreans, Windows, or Internet Explorer at all. It's just that when you put the three together, bad things are bound to happen.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[Creepy Crawler]

What in the heck are those websites you linked to? They're all Korean to me...

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[michaelvkim]

They're the Yahoo of Korea. I didn't link them so you can understand Korean, but to see how bandwidth-intensive Korean websites are over American websites.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

what about KBS? one of the heaviest sites I've ever seen.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[PitaBred]

So the national motto is "Have bandwidth, will waste it"?

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[phorm]

Just go to www.daum.net

Hmm, 300-600kbps and still it takes awhile to load everything. 50%+ CPU load with all the various flash, and MY EYES, MY EYES, DEAR LORD the layout is TERRIBLE!

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[kabocox]

1. it's running Windows with IE and at least 3 extraneous toolbars
2. it hasn't been defragmented since the computer was first built
3. EVERY website HAS to install software to make it run properly
4. EVERY website the user has bookmarked has at least 5 megabytes of flash (and they're all advertisements)

Everybody in Korea signs up for everything, not knowing how useless the service is, how dangerous it is on their computer, and how much traffic it eats up. Just go to www.daum.net or www.naver.co.kr, the two most popular media portals in Korea. What's worse is that Koreans prefer that kind of interface over Google.

I'm not trying to bash Koreans, Windows, or Internet Explorer at all. It's just that when you put the three together, bad things are bound to happen.

I'd say the same thing would happen if they were running Linux. Why? Because they'd Linux as root or atleast all those website would ask for a root password which all of them would provide for that peice of software to install. They'd see it just like click "yes" 3-5 times trying to install something in Windows. Just something that you have to do to get any program to run. Of course, most people don't think about what programs they give permission to run, but they shouldn't want running in the first place. Korea is ahead in broadband access to all. This actually sounds somewhat like my mom's HP from Walmart computer that she installs flash games and toolbar on. If everyone in my neighboorhood had cheap high speed internet, they'd have the same problem. This is as much a social problem as a computer problem. The only positive thing is that such a user could claim that they don't know what's installed or running on their PC and P2P or child porn stuff could be running on all that how should they knwo? They click yes or ok or type in the root password to everything that asks for it. How do we (either Linux, MS, or anytone else) fix that?

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[init100]

I didn't link them so you can understand Korean, but to see how bandwidth-intensive Korean websites are over American websites.

They didn't seem bandwith-intensive to me, but of course Adblock+ and NoScript helps a lot. :P

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[Air-conditioned cowh]

Yes I agree. The colour scheme does look a bit dull. Maybe they should try something more like this.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[kisrael]

Taking away the language thing, and maybe a propensity for smaller graphics and less white space (actually it reminds me of some asian newpapers I've seen in the USA) is that really any worse than yahoo or MSN portal pages?

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[JungleRob]

Korean media portals are not the only guilty 150k / bling filled portals of the world...
Check out this 150k badboy from the Southern US: http://www.augustachronicle.com/

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[mr.hawk]

I can't believe noone's mentioned the website of the most popular tabloid in Sweden here. Try this one on for size.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[gamer4Life]

Stop trying to stereotype your own people. Just because you are part of said group of people doesn't give you the right to generalize. You can at last narrow it down to, "Korean web sites suck!", or "the people who I know that are Korean, are naive when it comes to computer software".

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[gamer4Life]

Hmmmm... those web sites look much like the new Yahoo!

I guess American computers suck too?

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[ScrewMaster]

Yes, but there were some very large breasts in evidence so it all evens out in the end.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[K-Man]

My wife is Korean, and I used to get mad because I couldn't sign up for many Korean websites (Cyworld etc.) without a Korean ID number. Now I realize, it's for my own protection.

Re:Korean computers SUCKKKKK!!!

[Fulcrum of Evil]

When you have a pathologically conformist culture, yeah you can generalize a lot.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[interiot]

Reposting other people's comments from old stories, are we? Welcome to my foe list.

ActiveX

[ZwJGR]

It shouldn't be a huge amount of work to get ActiveX controls working on Windows.
A .ocx activex control is just a COM DLL really, and ought not to be too much trouble to port to Linux Firefox (in conjunction with WINE perhaps), or to Mac OS possibly in conjunction with the Win32 api compatability layer (Darwin?). A plugin wouldn't be too difficult to write, as ActiveX is better documented than many other areas of Windows. I'm sure that if enough South Korean programmers, and there are a lot, get annoyed, the problem will be sorted, particularly with the Vista issue.

Personnely I doubt that Vista will break these Korean ActiveX modules indefinetely, as MS can release a patch after the OS is releashed and selling, at their leisure. MS would never create a situation where an entire country is put off their flagship product, especially a country with 99.9% MS Windows usage, as stated in the article.

While I find the prevalent MS monoculture in South Korea in itself quite alarming and surprising, I don't think that the compatability issues with Vista are a cause for major concern. Nobody is foring anybody to upgrade to Vista after all.

Re:ActiveX

[CastrTroy]

Nobody is foring anybody to upgrade to Vista after all.

Unless you count the fact that in 6 months it's going to be very hard to find a computer which comes with Windows XP on it. And if you want to run new versions of other programs, it may be a requirement that you have XP. There's already a lot of programs that refuse to run on windows 2000, which is only a little older than XP. I don't think that it will be all that uncommon in 1 year to find a lot of programs that only run in Vista, especially with games and directX 10.

Re:ActiveX

[Shaper_pmp]

Personnely I doubt that Vista will break these Korean ActiveX modules indefinetely, as MS can release a patch after the OS is releashed and selling, at their leisure. MS would never create a situation where an entire country is put off their flagship product, especially a country with 99.9% MS Windows usage, as stated in the article.

I think you'll find the problem is that it's the very fundamental design decisions in ActiveX that are the problem.

ActiveX was originally designed with almost no thought to security - it relied on having pretty much unrestricted root access to your machine, and running arbitrary code directly on your operating system.

No sandboxing, no privilege-escalation warnings, nothing. And root access.

Now with Vista Microsoft have finally sorted out some of their most egregious security mistakes. Unfortunately, "unrestricted access for random binaries on any web page in the world" and "secure systems that a concussed ten-year-old couldn't crack" are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Short answer: It's pretty much impossible to "patch" ActiveX, because ActiveX was the problem.

To be fair, ActiveX has got better since it was introduced, but it's still fundamentally flawed, and with some extremely dangerous and/or stupid design assumptions.

Re:ActiveX

[Anonymous Coward]

>ActiveX was originally designed with almost no thought to security

No, that's wrong. ActiveX controls are signed the same way SSL certificates are signed. Additionally, the browser restricts what operations it may be perform based on security zone.

> it relied on having pretty much unrestricted root access to your machine

No, that's wrong. It is just a DLL that runs in the current IE process, which has whatever privilege the user has. True, users often run as admin, but ActiveX doesn't "rely" on that as you say.

Anyway, what's the big f'n deal to create additional browser plugins for other browsers, to support the security protocol the govt chose? presumably the protocol isn't dependent on MS. Just create Firefox, java, whatever plugins. The next time they visit the site, the user will get the new plugins.

Re:ActiveX

[Anonymous Coward]

the problem is that korean programmers also like all the bling without substance. instead of doing server-side programming, in korea they'll transfer everything to the client.

the fix will come, but it will be as ugly as the original stuff.

Re:ActiveX

[BJH]

The certificates need to be signed by the appropriate government authority, so the only one who can do anything about this problem is the South Korean government.

Re:ActiveX

[Shaper_pmp]

> No, that's wrong. ActiveX controls are signed the same way SSL certificates are signed.
> Additionally, the browser restricts what operations it may be perform based on security zone.

Fair point, but telling the user to "click here to run WhizzySpankyGreatActiveXControl-NotAPornDiallerHon est.ocx" is hardly security - leaving anything up to the user that requires the naive user to themselves distinguish between trustworthy authors and untrustworthy authors is basically just a way of shifting the blame from Microsoft to the end-user when/if their machines get rooted, not a way to secure the machine.

Kind of like how I could write a really perfect firewall that worked by showing you the raw dump of every incoming packet and asked you whether or not to allow it in for processing. After all, if anything bad happens then it's the user's fault, right?

Users think in terms of buttons, not processes - "Oh, the ActiveX box comes up, so now I hit [Ok]", not "The ActiveX warning box has come up, so now I ned to read the whole thing, extract the company name, do some background-checking in another window to make sure the certificate's legit, then grant access for this control this one time only".

> No, that's wrong. It is just a DLL that runs in the current IE process, which has whatever
> privilege the user has. True, users often run as admin, but ActiveX doesn't "rely" on that as
> you say.

Sorry - should have been clearer. Default in Windows is to run as admin. There is no sandboxing of ActiveX content, the way there is with Java/Javascript/whatever else. Therefore most ActiveX controls are written with the assumption they'll be running as admin. True, this is more the fault of the control developers than the architecture per se, but then if there was a sensible safety sandbox there by default the developers wouldn't be able to blithely assume root access, would they?

> Anyway, what's the big f'n deal to create additional browser plugins for other browsers, to
> support the security protocol the govt chose?

Shouldn't be any deal at all. I agree this should be a no-brainer.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[i_like_spam]

Not only is the story a dupe, but so is your post!

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=218612&cid=177 44830

Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a different article about a different issue than the one you're linking to. RTFA next time.

Err, disregard that.

[SighKoPath]

Yeah, it's a dupe.

Proprietary software

[feranick]

This is exactly why the generalized use of proprietary and not standard software is a bad idea. Being the most common platform, doesn't make it a standard either since the all country relies on something you have totally no control about.

Re:Proprietary software

[I_HATE_THIS]

Yes, that's why ET can't phone home, our phone system is so not 'standard'.

Re:Proprietary software

[feranick]

There is a lot of truth in what you say. The fact that a unified or standardized cellphone network does not exist n the US (different GSMs, CDMA) puts us in a similar situation as the Koreans. So you will be forced to buy locked phones or you encounter so many other issues when changing network provider. A more open system (or better a standardized system) where the network is standard and the same for every provider, the customer is not locked in a specific network and he/she can move to another without changing phone and going through the hassle of closing a contract. I think this is part of the reason why the so called "rechargeable" SIM cards enjoy such a popularity in Europe, while here they are barely existent.

Re:Proprietary software

[beuges]

Did you happen to miss the part in the summary where they made this decision _before_ a standard was available? How do they make use of a standard that does not exist? Microsoft gets constantly flamed for 'deviating from the standards' or whatever, yet most of the time, they have had to implement some sort of solution before a standard actually existed. Then someone else goes and implements a standard, and everyone points and laughs at Microsoft for not adhering to it.

Everyone goes on about how ActiveX is the worst thing designed ever, yet it was helping Koreans make secure web transactions before SSL was standardised.

Sometimes the MS-haters here need to stop and consider the big picture. It's 1998, and there is no standard for SSL. Microsoft has a feature which allows secure transactions to take place. Korea wants a system for secure transactions NOW. They make use of what is available at the time. Sure they could go and design a standard, but then they would not be able to provide their service NOW. And it's not as if Microsoft sat with a gun to their heads and told them that they are never allowed to change their transaction security to do away with activex - they've been free to purely rely on SSL since 1999. But lets point fingers at big bad Microsoft because some webmasters in Korea are too lazy to redesign their sites.

Ordinarily, this would be a no-brainer. But on slashdot it earns a 'haha' tag.

Re:Proprietary software

[feranick]

You just missed completely my point. You are right to say that tat the time there was no standard. However I wonder how other countries manage to use and develop cryptographical tools. In any case 1998 was 10 years ago. A smart thought would have been to develop an alternative, when the tools to develop it were finally opened and available. This is where I see the problem. The use of tools which can be heavily broken by the same manufacturer that makes them in first place. Regardless of what you think about DirectX, it's not a standard, not open either. Everything goes well if the MS would decide to carry over from XP to Vista. THe problems starts when MS itself starts messing around with it breaking it. In other words: you use MS Word. After few years, MS decides that their format needs "fixing" and it breaks. So if you upgrade you can't read your old stuff. Sure you can blame MS, but you should at least be conscious about your first initial wrong decision.

Re:Proprietary software

[beuges]

Fair enough, I see your point. Although, since you bring up DirectX - to me, that seems to be another example of what happened in Korea - there was a need for a multimedia library, and MS implemented one. Sure, opengl is more of a standard, but (and I stand to be corrected here) from what I understand, DX is miles ahead of opengl in terms of functionality and capability. While the opengl committees are sitting around killing time instead of defining a new version of the specification to bring it up to speed, MS is actually going out and doing stuff right now. And I do agree with you that since it is not an open spec, then people locking themselves into it might end up shooting themselves in the foot if MS decided to break/drop functionality. But in the case of DX, game developers and game consumers want the fancy graphics NOW. They don't want to wait for the opengl committee to ponder the universe and argue and agree and disagree and eventually come up with a spec that makes the whole world happy. Developers want to make pretty games now, and users want to play pretty games now. MS is giving them the tools to achieve that now. Sure its instant gratification, but no matter what your feelings towards MS, they do have some incredibly smart people and their products are being designed better and better - sure the older products like the core of windows is still a mess because of all the bad decisions of the past they have to live with, but they most definitely have learned a lot from those bad decisions, and are improving in their design process with each new product. I think you'll see less of the broken-in-future-versions that we experience now, with their newer products, because they've already had the experiences of having to work with/break/work around limitations in their software due to not having a crystal ball to know how their software will be used 10 years later.

Sorry for the ramble, its 3:10am here :)

Re:Proprietary software

[The_Quinn]

use of proprietary and not standard software is a bad idea

Just what do you consider 'standard' software to be? Some particular flavor of Linux distribution? Solaris Unix?

One definition of standard might be: "Mandatory requirements employed and enforced to prescribe a disciplined uniform approach to software development, that is, mandatory conventions and practices are in fact standards. [IEEE-STD-610]"

Microsoft DOES have a disciplined approach to software development, and they PROMOTE a disciplined approach to doing development on their platform. Similarly, such standards exist in the Linux community.

My point is that I don't think 'standardization' has much of a role in an argument for/against Microsoft in this case.

In fact, if anything, You could say that S Korea has 'standardized' on a version of Windows, and other than uncertainties on the horizon, it has served them perfectly well until now.

Re:Proprietary software

[feranick]

The problem is not Microsoft. The problem is countries relying on something which is not an OPEN standard, but that is controlled by a single companies may put you in jeopardy. I have no problem accepting windows as a standard. We all are using MS Word ".doc" format after all. What I have a problem with is my country being forcibly dependent on foreign technology, with no possibility to fix the problem. Again, it's not MS fault, it's simply the government making the bad decision of "outsourcing" completely that technology, and remain stuck with it. So to answer to your question: I don't care what standard, and by the way Linux, Solaris, etc are not standards, just simple OS. By standard I mean a standardized set of instructions, fully and openly accessible, that can be implemented in programs that can run on several platforms. After all AES and SSL are simply that, so you can find them in several competing products. I can even accept proprietary but open standards (such as PDF) for the job.

Re:Proprietary software

[The_Quinn]

What you are saying is that you want the government to force open source. But I think you ought to consider the position that perhaps the government should not force OSes on people - that people and business should be free to deal with other people and businesses however they see fit. If the government mandated some particular software license be imposed on the country, you would only be opening up a whole different set of problems.

Re:Proprietary software

[feranick]

Short answer: Open standards != open source. Long answer: I don't ask for government imposition of open source software. I am asking the government to use software which makes use of documented open standards. As in my example the Portable Document Format (PDF) is a very good example. It's fully own by Adobe (so not open source), but the specifications are available, and you can use them to create your (proprietary or not) applications. So you can by Adobe products, or you can easily find it available in Unix systems or in several programs. This is the opposite of, say, MS Word. The format is closed, there are no specifications and documentations available. If you want to produce Word formatted document with non-MS products you have to reverse engineer. Relying on such a close format is wrong as Korea is experiencing. BTW, this is the reason why MS is pushing for approval as standards of their formats. We don't live any more in the naive world where the software can be easily imposed to people by market monopoly. Some (smart) government started questioning the use of closed standards in public documents, and asking for use of open formats. By obtaining for their format the official status of "standard", MS will simply provide an answer from this requests of "openness". Open source has nothing to do with it.

Re:Proprietary software

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Hey, they paid for the software in the first place. It makes sense to mandate it be open sourced, as that would avoid this very problem.

Korean _WEBSITES_ SUCKKKKK!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

daum.net is 40KB of html (with all CSS and javascript inline) compressed. It uncompresses to over 150KB ppv, absolutely unbelievable. That web team are way beyond the reach of the almighty clue bat; they need shooting.

It's that last part that freaks me out...

[Karl Cocknozzle]

At the end of all this work, they will still be a monoculture in thrall to Microsoft, with millions of users sitting behind some of the fattest pipes in the world.

I think its funny the poster left the part about millions of users behind the fattest pipes around--that seems like the worst part of the story. A monstrous delivery system for Microsoft zero-day worms/exploits, etc... A virtual-WMD if you will.

Just thinking about it makes me want to tell my firewall to shun all traffic from large swaths of the world...

Another question: Couldn't this be forced through liability? I.e. These companies need to switch to using the now much-more secure SSL to handle transactions, or find themselves liable when their customers identities are stolen through their weak quasi-encryption scheme. That's why US companies did it--they didn't want to get sued because a weak protocol was cracked.

Re:It's that last part that freaks me out...

[TimmyDee]

You're telling me. I frequented a Korean run internet cafe when I was in Australia a number of years ago, and those computers were absolutely laden with spyware, etc. This being the early days of spyware, I wasn't too aware of the extent of the situation. I certainly didn't do any banking, but I did check my email. After that, the email account I had used was inundated with an insane amount of Korean spam.

I guess there's a price to pay with being on the "cutting edge".

Re:It's that last part that freaks me out...

[smbarbour]

Windows to hosed in 3...

*** STOP 0x0000007B (0xF201B84C,0xC0000034,0x00000000,0x00000000)
INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, you are
very fortunate. However, it is highly unlikely that this will be the
last time you will see this.

This particular error means that there was a problem reading the boot
information from the hard disk drive. If you are hearing strange
clicking noises coming from your computer, you should go out and buy
a new hard drive as soon as possible. If you are lucky, there may still
be some salvageable data left on the disk.

*Humor added for effect - Does not necessarily reflect the STOP error that will occur from not using protection.

Re:It's that last part that freaks me out...

[Bert64]

Most of the large banks and credit card companies mandate the use of SSL if you want to conduct business with them online...

Screw nukes

[plopez]

If I were N. Korea this is what I would be developing.

Re:Screw nukes

[identity0]

You jest, but in fact North Korea has been reported to have a hacker and cyberwarfare unit with several hundred members, possibly many more. Given that NK has very little in the way of computer infrastructure, it's likely mostly designed for attack of their main enemies, SK, US and Japan.

Now, whether they have any talent is an open question, but the military seems to be about the only thing that works well there...

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[nuzak]

Check out his journal -- he's a blatant troll.

virtualization

[jbaas]

Even though Linus thinks virtualization is overhyped, I think this will bring a huge leap in consumer choice in these kind of environments. If the virtualized and the host environments can merge well from a user's perspective (thinks like file access, clipboard, menu's, etc.), people would be able to use IE/win for those things they really have to use IE on windows, and for the rest they can really use whatever environment they like.

In almost all new markets untill this date, it has been possible to make huge sums of money. As markets mature competition takes over. John D. Rockefeller and Bill Gates would be names you would've never heard of if they were born 30 years later.

Consumers, businesses, and governments are slow learners, but they do learn. In a couple of decades, this whole Microsoft thing will only be known to us geeks and some historians.

Mod this guy up!

[Sloppy]

I hope you don't mind if I quote your whole post, but..

No, the problem is that incompetently created websites use delicate nonportable nonstandard proprietary software that is only interoperative with one single obsolete platform.

Don't blame Vista; blame people who aren't responsible, experienced, or forward-looking enough to see why complying with standards is so necessary.

Now let's see how people will fix their glaring mistake. Will they "fix" it by repeating it (i.e. rewriting ActiveX controls to be compatible with Vista, so that they can get paid to screw their customers again in 5 years when the next version of Windows comes out) or will they fix it by removing the irresponsible dependencies?

..that's what I call insightful! I don't think I could have said it better myself.

Re:Mod this guy up!

[Creepy Crawler]

Consider it a compliment ;-D

Slashdot moderators and I found that QUITE INSIGHTFUL. Thank you for boosting the S/N ratio that I lower everyday.

other parallels

[nostriluu]

The Government of Canada uses a public key infrastructure system, that only works in some browsers. Famously for the past census, only some people could access it.

Some important sites, such as banks and airlines, don't support other browsers or require plugins as well. It is getting better with the important cross platform critical mass of Firefox, but far from perfect.

Is it a public highway, or something designed only for Ford Explorers(tm)?

Re:other parallels

[zhiwenchong]

Really? This must be some time ago. I haven't encountered any problems with most government (CRA, Statcan (census) and the like) or bank websites and I'm running Firefox on Linux and Safari on the Mac (which is a minority browser). The only exception is the Air Canada site, which seems to be IE centric.

In fact the Canada Revenue Agency website even supports Opera, among other things.
http://www.netfile.gc.ca/browser-e.html

CIBC, Royal Bank, ScotiaBank, TD Bank, PC Financial all support Safari and other minority browsers
http://www.cibc.com/ca/legal/browser-security.html
http://www.royalbank.com/online/faqindex.html
http://www.scotiabank.com/cda/content/0,1608,CID43 57_LIDen,00.html
http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/ebanking/sup-br.jsp
http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/a/security/whatW eDoPopup.page#more_secure_browsers

Re:other parallels

[nostriluu]

You may be right, I know they had a lot of early problems because they use "livescript" (java applet connected to javascript), but because Firefox has asserted itself and, well, time has passed, I guess it isn't much of an issue now. There was an issue with the census within the past year, however.

I was really talking generally of the internet/web as a vendor neutral space, particularly in the public sphere. For example, the LCBO's original web site was 100% Flash, and you'll sometimes see sites that require Flash for content that could have easily been more standard.

I'm SO glad you clarified this

[sheldon]

After this was posted two days ago as Koreans Advised to "Avoid Vista" for Now, there was a lot of confusion created.

It's good that you put up this article for us, helping to clarify that we're talking about South Korea and not North Korea.

Thank you. My comrades in North Korea will be relieved to hear this.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[michaelvkim]

North Koreans are shackled to windows too, but in the literal sense.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[c6gunner]

North Korea uses windows too. Mainly unlicensed copies of Windows 98. Ofcourse, they don't really have to worry about ActiveX compatibility issues because nobody has internet access, and I can guarantee that not many have even heard of Vista, let alone have machines powerful enough to run it.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[Jartan]

Yea and the fact that it clarified the history behind why Korean uses activex so much wasn't useful at all.

I'm all for less dupes but you people need to get a grip sometimes.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[Fulcrum of Evil]

North Korea uses windows too. Mainly unlicensed copies of Windows 98.

That would imply they have computers.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[c6gunner]

I think it's safe to assume that not many have personal computers, but they do have access to them in schools, and some businesses make use of them as well. It's safe to say that there are SOME computers in pretty much every country in the world, including the poorest ones.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[Fulcrum of Evil]

they do have access to them in schools, and some businesses make use of them as well.

I'm having trouble envisioning that 50's era stalinist craphole having business either. I'm seeing one third of people that are doing ok, one third in abject poverty, one third worse off than that, a million guys in the army, and one short fat dude running the whole thing.

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[c6gunner]

Ok, "state owned business" then.

Anyway, the computer thing isn't open to discussion. Look here for a look into the North Korean school system. Granted the school being showcased is one for the children of the "elite", but one thing that Kim has taken seriously is education, and I would imagine that the rest of the schools would be similar, if not quite as extravagant.

This is my favourite quote from that page:

The first place our dynamo little guide led us was the computer room. And yes, they even use Windows in North Korea. Though one doubts Microsoft ever sees their cut!

Oddly enough the students were using the English version of Windows 98 rather than the Korean one. When I asked Mr. Huk why he looked at me like I was an idiot and said because there wasn't a Korean version. A 'fact' that must come as a huge surprise to Microsoft Korea!

Re:I'm SO glad you clarified this

[Fulcrum of Evil]

When I asked Mr. Huk why he looked at me like I was an idiot and said because there wasn't a Korean version. A 'fact' that must come as a huge surprise to Microsoft Korea!

I've heard this before. Perhaps it's part of the whole 'everyone hates us' mentality...

uh?

[waspleg]

this is a country where one of the most popular sports is watching people play online games, a quick search for korean gamer scored 1.2 million hits with a number of articles talking about south korea as the gaming capital of the world.

maybe this has something to do with a fervent windows dedication? linux games are still limted to cedega, and no one wants to pay for play, although some people don't care, like my friend who pays their dev fee on top of his WoW subscription; i guess it depends on your disposable income.

what i'm saying is maybe ActiveX isn't the only factor here, maybe DirectX is a big (bigger?) one.

waspleg

Re:uh?

[Anonymous Coward]

- Slashdot is full of hypocrites. Only here is censorship both reviled and accepted unconditionally.

Slashdot is a crowd. It's full of disagreement. Any crowd that's large enough is hypocritical.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[init100]

I don't want to think of the amount of remote code execution vulnerabilities present on a machine with all these controls installed.

Now we know where all those spam-distributing botnets are located. Bring out teh bombers! :)

Re:Why the extreme negativity?

[Anonymous Coward]

So now I'm a troll because I disagree with the prevailing wisdom? There's no real debate or discourse that goes on here. You guys are a bunch of hypocrites.

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[ccarson]

It's typical that a Slashdot editor would use the word "Shackled". Oh, heaven forbid the majority of a country uses the predominate operating system in the world. Actually, I kinda get a kick out of Slashdot's bias toward their anti-Micro$oft philosophy.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Creepy Crawler]

You should have posted in my journal. I'd engage you fairly there. My journal isnt a battle ground.

Am I too naive

[Wooky_linuxer]

or I should read your comment as an open call to hack Korean's ActiveX based transactions to smitherings?

this is a perfect indicator

[JustNiz]

as to the problem that would quickly happen to the rest of the world too if it weren't for OpenSource and GNU/Linux, and the EU fighting Microsoft.

Re:this is a perfect indicator

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... South Korea is doomed because it has 99.9% of desktops running Windows. But Europe, the US, and Japan are safe because they have only a miniscule 95% of desktops running Windows.

Stallman

[true_hacker]

So, will RMS support the North now??

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[drinkypoo]

And if it had been your own comment, I wouldn't have added you to my foes list.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[nuzak]

I don't feed trolls. This will be the last response I give you. Good day sir.

Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[LaughingCoder]

This amazing tale began in 1998 when Korea decided it couldn't wait for SSL to be standardized (which it was in 1999) and commissioned an ActiveX control for secure Web transactions.

According to Wikipedia, South Korea's economy began a miraculous recovery starting in 1998. They enjoyed 10% growth in 1999 and 9% in 2000. Growth continued, though at a slightly slower (but very respectable) 6% after that. And interestingly, the major driver of that growth is in the service industry - the very segment of the economy that relies on Windows. Could it be that having Windows as a monolithic IT infrastructure is/was a key driver of that economic growth? Most developed nations would *love* to be shackled to growth like that.

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. S. Korea has built it's economic intrastructure by having the government heavily fund large cooperations. It's economy heavily favors large cooperate monopolies. Their decision to use Microsoft just follows their economic strategy which has worked well for the country.

Smaller asian countries like S. Korea, Taiwan, Singapore do not have the large pool of technical resources like America. To stay competitive with the global market, often government policies focus their country's resources and money on investing in one technology (e.g. semiconductor fab, motherboard dev, Microsoft OS, etc). In most cases, this has spurred economic growth and rised the standard of living in these countries. The trade-off is they invest much of the country's infrastructure and dependency on monopolies. Meaning they will have to live with the good and the bad.

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[ya8282]

Funded by government or IMF? I wish people would do their research. --;;

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[Anonymous Coward]

please enlighten us

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't even imagine how productive I could be if I didn't have to deal with all the non-microsoft crap systems and crap code.

Not to even mention if all code was C# .NET 2.0...

Sometimes, people need to learn2comply.

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[Shaper_pmp]

Indeed. And look where it got them - massive costs to update their entire online commerce infrastructure overnight, or be effectively locked out of the entire future of the single overwhelmingly dominant computing platform.

And if they make the same mistake again and just retool for Vista/IE7 instead of migrating to open standards, another huge up-front cost when those proprietary formats and "standards" go the way proprietary formats always do.

It's kind of like taking massive amounts of coke - sure, your mate might be happier and more lively and more fun to be around, but in five years' time he's likely to be a paranoid, abusive down-and-out without even a septum to his name.

What benefits, eh?

Re:Shackled? And this has hurt them how?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're mixing cause and consequence. the two are not correlated. korea economy would grow anyway, independent of software platform as long it was the same for everyone. the fact that windows just works enough (it looks even better when compared to the alternatives back 1995-1998, such as Mac - not there for business - and all the unixes - too hard) and had a decent support for korean when other stuff couldn't even get close at that time, speaks volumes for windows getting market dominance.

but it would occur anyway.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Creepy Crawler]

Its really funny to have articles coming out with "50+ % of population has downloaded pirated movies", and whiners of DRM and 'all that is evil about copyright', but look what happens when I duplicate posts from a duplicated Article...

People are attacking me more than they attack the RIAA/MPAA. And I didnt even claim I was the writer.... they just assume that. I even explain to another commenter later on that I DIDNT WRITE THIS.

It was originally a joke, but you all need to chill.

the perfect microsoft society

[wardk]

that is the model folks

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Creepy Crawler]

Fair enough. I'd not associate around myself either online.

Oblig

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the size of the pipe, it's what you do with it.

Broken, yes. But is it being fixed?

[Bob of Dole]

After seeing both stories (Twice the time to think about it! Thanks, slashdot.) it's not obvious why this is the case. Firefox is big now, and has plenty of active development going on, both in the core and in the extensions. Why isn't anyone just writing a SEED extension to support this format?
That'd remove the cross-platform problems. (You'd still have the cross-browser problems, but IE+Firefox is infinitely better than just IE, even if Opera/Safari/etc don't work)

Patents, maybe? Or just lack of developer interests? Maybe there's no South Korean Firefox programmers.

Also, the information about the two plugins doesn't make sense. There used to be a Netscape plugin, but then IE won the browser wars, so it stopped being used. ... So why doesn't anyone just start using it again?
Firefox supports Netscape plugins (I think), I doubt the bits have rotted.

While I was in korea

[ickleberry]

The only computer I saw over there not running windows was in the engine room of a LNG carrier

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[kinabrew]

How is "digital restrictions management" less proper or less accurate than "digital rights management"?

Its purpose is to manage restrictions on what users can or cannot do with the content. In what way does it manage rights?

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[drinkypoo]

Its really funny to have articles coming out with "50+ % of population has downloaded pirated movies", and whiners of DRM and 'all that is evil about copyright', but look what happens when I duplicate posts from a duplicated Article...

you're assuming that the people berating you are the same people violating copyright. that is not a safe assumption. this is a logical fallacy, but I'm too lazy to look up which one.

People are attacking me more than they attack the RIAA/MPAA. And I didnt even claim I was the writer.... they just assume that.

that's because at the top of a comment it says who it was written by, and what you did was plagiarism. your attempt to make excuses for it does not in any way change the fact that you passed another's comment off as your own. those of us who are bothered by this may not be able to punish you for your action, but we can mark you as a foe so we know before even reading your comments that you're an asshat.

Starcraft, of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Starcraft doesn't run on Linux. Duh.

Can you say "morons"?

[Master of Transhuman]

I knew you could.

Give Gates a chance and the US will be "shackled" as well.

ActiveX controls - the SECOND biggest stupid POS Microsoft ever produced - after the Registry.

Or maybe it's the DLL - I'm currently fighting a client's ancient Windows 95 machine (don't ask!) that is locked in DLL hell with the oleaut32.dll crap...

Somebody put Microsoft out of business NOW! Please!

Re:Can you say "morons"?

[Anonymous Coward]

a client's ancient Windows 95 machine

wtf!?!??

Re:Can you say "morons"?

[Jesus_666]

Or maybe it's the DLL - I'm currently fighting a client's ancient Windows 95 machine (don't ask!) that is locked in DLL hell with the oleaut32.dll crap...

Yeah! Shared libraries suck! Everything should be statically linked. That's also why I'm just performing an rm /usr/lib/*.so. It's bound to complete any seco%%%%%%%%%%NO CARRIER

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Maxo-Texas]

You know what is amazing is that I can use any browser with my bank's online banking software.
So I can use any operating system.
So I can use any random computer anywhere (friend's, work, library, random internet kiosk at the breckenridge ski resort up on the mountain)

And that I never considered that amazing before today.

Fan Death?

[ClioCJS]

No talk about Fan Death?!?!

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's actually fairly awesome what you did. If there's a way to game the system, why not?

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one right way to enable active-x on a website that pervasively needs it. That is to add the website to your trusted sites list and change the settings only for trusted sites to allow active-x. I'm sure a lot of people just edit their settings for all websites though after getting tired of clicking allow 20 time in one banking session.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Tools->Internet Options->Security->Trusted Sites->*.some-korean-bank.whatever (add)
Hope this helps.

Just in case you're not actually trolling

[GalionTheElf]

Interesting you should mention the free market. MS is not a fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_anti-trust_ case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsof t

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[Anonymous Coward]

"I kinda get a kick out of Slashdot's bias toward their anti-Micro$oft philosophy."

And i get a kick out MS worshipers who get upset when someone calls their baby UGLY.

Backroom dealings? Or direct commands

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect the decision was made by the White House and the NSA who basically told South Korea "if you want us to protect you from the North, you will install Windows with the NSA backdoor".

No country would make such a stupid decision to be held hostage by a foreigh company - but might if forced by another government.

In Korea...

[trailerparkcassanova]

Not only old people use Windows...

TCO will include this?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Next time when Microsoft buys itself another "independant" study comparing the Total Cost of Ownership of Windows with Linux, will they also include all these costs the Koreans are paying to keep up?

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[LilGuy]

Sometimes you also have to call a queen a queen.

You are a queen.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Creepy Crawler]

---that's because at the top of a comment it says who it was written by, and what you did was plagiarism. your attempt to make excuses for it does not in any way change the fact that you passed another's comment off as your own. those of us who are bothered by this may not be able to punish you for your action, but we can mark you as a foe so we know before even reading your comments that you're an asshat.

If you could, you ought to consider WHY I do this? I give coherent arguments on other troll threads (well, I go against what the mainstream thought is) , but why did I copy, VERBATIM, in this post?

It is akin to satire. Dupe article gets dupe threads.. Now why nobody thought of posting dupe posts to my dupes, well, Oh well..

And, on my other trolls (which are ones that hold exactly oposite views of the majority here) do not include copying verbatim, unless quoting. And I didnt even copy any of your stuff (because it wanst considered highest quality), so you have no place to complain.

By the way, whats an Asshat? Is that anal bum cover?

That's the explanation, what's the solution?

[Midnight Thunder]

The blog entry explains why S. Korea is in such a bad position. What I would like to know is, other than holding off on Vista, what is being recommended as a proper long term solution? For example are they recommending companies to adapt to standard web standards?

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[maxwell demon]

There was no indication on your "original" post that the text is not yours. That is, it's not just copying, but plagiarism. And you can very well be against copyright, and at the same time against plagiarism. Note that even the GPL does not allow you to distribute modified versions without proper attribution, even if you distribute the result under the GPL.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see why you'd copy other people's posts - your own tend to be imbecilic. Eat lead.

It is worse elsewhere, almost ...

[kbahey]

South Korea is one country that shares a language with only one other country (North Korea).

The matter is worse in other parts of the world where many more were affected.

A while ago, I wrote about Microsoft and Arabization and the issue of browser independence.

Remember that there are about 300 million native Arabic speakers, and it is the 5th language or so worldwide, spread over 20+ countries. Not to mention the many others who read or speak Arabic as a second language.

In the mid to late 1990s, Microsoft entrenched itself in the Arabic internet market. Most sites were just unusable form anything other than Microsoft Internet Explorer.

Since MS IE does not adhere to standards, and it became the dominant browser by the early 2000s, this monopoly further entrenched Microsoft as the sole technology provider for web sites in the Middle East.

Speaking to a developer at a fairly large company about it, he said : "forget Mac and Linux, we say the application requires Microsoft IE 5 [at the time]". I was flabbergasted by that attitude.

Not only is he mandating a certain browser, but an entire operating system and hardware architecture! And that went unchallenged.

Fortunately, things started to improve over the last year or two, with FireFox gaining ground, and there is no single government forcing a monoculture via banking security or something like that. Sites that used not to work (including Al Jazeera Arabic web site) are usable once more, perhaps with a few glitches here and there.

Still, most people use Hotmail for their email, and MSN for chat (voice and text). It may take time, but I hope the spread of FireFox, Mac OS/X and to a lesser extent Linux will continue to keep web site developers cross platform, and never force the monoculture that was prevalent up until a few years ago.

Re:It is worse elsewhere, almost ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking to a developer at a fairly large company about it, he said : "forget Mac and Linux, we say the application requires Microsoft IE 5 [at the time]". I was flabbergasted by that attitude.

Not only is he mandating a certain browser, but an entire operating system and hardware architecture! And that went unchallenged.

FWIW, Microsoft actually released versions of IE 5 for Solaris and for HP-UX.

["Internet Explorer for UNIX" page]

It's one of those historical oddities, like Windows NT being supported for PowerPC, DEC MIPS, and Alpha. (for a while, anyway...)

Re:It is worse elsewhere, almost ...

[kbahey]

I know they did. They also had a Mac version too.

However, think of this:

- "Normal" users (i.e. consumers using computers at home), would not have access to either a Solaris workstation or a HP/UX machine either.

- That developer only considered IE 5 ON WINDOWS, because to him, and his management at the IT provider they worked for, this was the only thing that existed.

I think FireFox is to take part of the credit for the turnaround.

Working with a big portal in the Middle East, I was concerned that this Windows MS IE centric mentality would still be there. However, I found the developers use FireFox, and hence start with clean standard XHTML and CSS, then they have to jump through the hoops for making MS IE work. That was a pleasant surprise.

Amazing that you would use a random computer ...

[AHumbleOpinion]

You know what is amazing is that I can use any browser with my bank's online banking software. So I can use any operating system. So I can use any random computer anywhere (friend's, work, library, random internet kiosk at the breckenridge ski resort up on the mountain) And that I never considered that amazing before today.

Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I find it amazing that you would use a random computer to do online banking. Who knows what key logging software has been maliciously installed.

Vista is for old people

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in South Korea

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[ccarson]

Well -- you can't come to my birthday party!

I thought North Korea was the bad one of the two

[no1nose]

Perhaps some super-informed /.er can let us know if Mr. Jong II allows the use of Firefox and SSL for banking transactions in his country.

It is a response to North Korea's Linux use...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, South Korea's adoption and full implementation of the superior Windows brand computing systems took place in response to the fact that North Korea's "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il has been a proponent of open source computing solutions, such as GNU/Linux since the mid-90's. It is a known fact that over 80% of the linux kernel was written in North Korean prison camps under brutal conditions. For example, North Korean programmers had only two types of coffee flavorings available in the Kim Il Sung Memorial break room... and it pains me to tell you that hazelnut was not one of the two. It is somewhat ironic that a repressive dictator such as Kim Jong Il would be such a rabid supporter of supposedly "free" software such as Linux (photos recently smuggled out of the Hermit Kingdom show Kim Jong Il wearing a "Stallman's beard" t-shirt that he purchased on cafe press, holding a "Linux Power Tools" O'Reilley book, and crunching on a box of "Penguin Mints" from think geek... looks like that embargo isn't really working out.

North Korea did recently take a plunge into using Windows software, the results can be seen here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/04/ko rea.missile/

Peace!

Who are you laughing at, Popeye?

[Anonymous Coward]

kekekeke

Can you tell me, not later than Tuesday, what that "kekekeke" means?

Re:Who are you laughing at, Popeye?

[Korin43]

In World of Warcraft, the Alliance and Horde characters don't speak the same language, so when one side says either "hahahah" or "lololol" (can't remember which), it shows up as "kekekeke" to the other side.

Re:Who are you laughing at, Popeye?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet#Kekeke

I don't understand the StarCraft connection, but basically, it's equivilant to "hehehe"
My Vietnamese friend used it in text messages a lot where I'd have used hehe. Now I understand the origins I guess

Re:Who are you laughing at, Popeye?

[PastaLover]

Someone must have updated that page since you posted it because it seems to explain the starcraft connection quite acceptably (kekeke is the romanized form of hahaha in korean, starcraft did not support korean characters in the first few versions).

Regardless, I just wanted to say World of Warcraft users seem to use KEK and not kekeke. People tend to say lol more ingame than going for lololol.

Re:Amazing that you would use a random computer ..

[Maxo-Texas]

You have a good point. I guess in today's environment I need to restrict it.

But you know, even your work computers may have key loggers installed (by management no less).

So I guess the only reasonably (but not completely) safe computer would be your home computer.

The benefits are very large. I guess I should put any significant funds in a bank that I have to walk in the door and keep a few thousand in another bank for day to day convenience and bill paying. That's effectively what I do now but I was not doing it conciously.

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[HeroreV]

Where did he say "digital restrictions management" was a less proper or less accurate name? You're going slightly off topic to make yourself look good, because if you had actually stuck to the point you wouldn't have gotten modded insightful.

Re:Why the extreme negativity?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right, the market did decide. All that this tells us is that the market is operating with inadequate information, as happens in so many other cases.
Alas, the "pragmatist" will bitch like hell when his/her bank account/credit card etc gets porked because of a vulnerability, rather than "moving on".

Skip the local browser

[chipperdog]

If they want tight control and security, why not deliver the applications using RDP, VNC, X, or ICA. There are simple JAVA applet clients that can be embedded into a webpage for any of those protocols. There's even a Java applet to tunnel those thru ssh is they don't support encryption natively..

OK, My South Korea Boycott Has Begun

[llscotts]

Hey, clearly the country sees no disincentive to being an IT fiefdom of Microsoft, but I certainly won't buy anything made solely with Microsoft software. I haven't bought Microsoft products in years as a personal boycott of the company. If everything imported from South Korea has been built by the Microsoft Monopoly machine, it simply won't be coming into my household. Obviously, one little guy boycotting Korean products isn't going to make a difference. But the same is true of my Microsoft boycott, yet I continue to hope that one day more of my peers will realize that we have a government-sponsored monopoly running our computers, and all the money for the monopoly is going to that monopoly company. Is this right? Can anybody still say, "free enterprise" with a straight face? IT, computers, and software now touch everything we touch, and it's just not right to let it be controlled by a single private entity that has no accountability.

Oops... this really got me started. But I need to stop before I spend the next hour here. :-)

Apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't have a sense of humor

I'm IN South Korea

[misanthrope101]

I'm here. I bought stuff last night using Firefox on Ubuntu. I've had no problems with SSL using Firefox, Konqueror, etc. My web-surfing experience has been no different than it has been anywhere else. If Korea is a "monoculture" then it's because of a cultural issue, not a technical issue.

Re:I'm IN South Korea

[youknowitall]

Try internet banking, try logging in to ANY of the government sites. You will see.

Trust Koreans

[Christino]

Government advising Koreans not to install Vista? I can bet half a million Koreans run on Vista already!

Haven't they learned anything ?

[freedom_india]

in 2003, we had a worldwide attack of SQL Server worm that left South Korea completely in the dark on the 'net.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.07/slammer.h tml

It completely dropped out of internet because of this SQL Server worm.

This should have made Korea realize that depending on one technology (especially MSFT) is a death knell to their online experience.
Instead these guys have gone ahead to make it more dependent on MSFT especially ActiveX which has been proven it is unsafe on 'net.

Haven't they learned anything at all.

Re:& I thought N Korea was a barbaric dictator

[me at werk]

Why is this modded down? The man's correct. I guess he didn't explain well enough.

Just giving a damn good reason isn't enough. If I wrote down the solution to world hunger, stuck it in an envelope, sealed it, and stuck it in my sock drawer, I have not solved world hunger. I just created a POTENTIAL solution. Geeks are talking to each other about solutions, but not letting people, the masses, know. Firefox is even going to have TV ads if they haven't already to let the general public know about their browser. They got a million names in the new york times or something like that. Two page ad.

What I'm trying to say is, make the public aware. Heh, if only Second Life was ousted as using some kind of odd DRM, and that became the new thing all the newspapers talk about when they mention SL...

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[mgv]

Reposting other people's comments from old stories, are we? Welcome to my foe list.

Join the long queue

Microsoft won't delay vista for Korea, how rude!

[trimbo]

From TFA: To add insult to injury, the monopolist who absolutely controls the Korean market for computers won't delay the launch of Vista to alllow for Korean websites to re-code their sites.

Gee, because Korean websites had absolutely no advance notice that Vista was coming out. Nope. No one heard about that one in advance.

I'm getting really tired of Slashdot publishing vendor complaints about Vista catching them all by surprise. Vista's anything but a surprise.

it may help quite a bit

[r00t]

A hardware-based key cracker might not be all that adaptable. Forcing the attacker to build new hardware JUST FOR ATTACKING YOU is rather nice.

Even software-based key crackers would require a bit of effort to retarget. You might not be worth the effort. The effort could well involve putting a contract out for bids, waiting, selecting a bidder, and waiting some more.

Re:it may help quite a bit

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Except when you're using strong cryptography, the assumption is already being made that you are worth the effort. Otherwise, plaintext or rot13 alone would probably suffice.

Re:it may help quite a bit

[r00t]

Maybe I am worth 2 seconds on an already-existing highly parallel hardware-based cracking machine. (that is, let's assume the machine is already built and paid for -- the only costs are electrical power and the cost of lost opportunity to attack some other target)

That doesn't make me worth the costs of ASIC engineering, chip mask creation, chip manufacture, board fabrication, and all the work associated with setting up a machine that is only useful for a 2-second attack against me.

That could be $3 in the first case, and $500000 or more in the second case. Perhaps I'm only an interesting contact worth $7.

Re:it may help quite a bit

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

That could be $3 in the first case, and $500000 or more in the second case. Perhaps I'm only an interesting contact worth $7.

Perhaps, yes. However, "perhaps", someone will just guess the correct key after brute-forcing only 25% of the full keyspace (there's a 1 in 4 chance of it). "Perhaps" someone will figure out how to quickly perform prime factorization. "Perhaps" someone will build a quantum computer.

You don't really know what capabilities an attacker is going to have. You can't know absolutely, because you're designing a system today that needs to be secure against tomorrow's attacks. As the saying goes, "attacks only get better; they never get worse".

What you do know is that the more complex a system is, the more likely it is to be vulnerable to attack. Perhaps your rot13 function will be nicely exploitable by some side-channel attack. Take a look at a recent result, Simple Branch Prediction Analysis. If your nifty new rot13 function had been written and deployed 2 years ago, before this attack had been published, would your implementation have been secure against it? If not, would you at least be able to say that the added complexity was worth the added risk?

My opinion is that the negligible increase in security (between 0 and 1 bits of added security) isn't worth the risk that the added complexity brings. There are better-understood ways of adding one bit of security to a system. Furthermore, if you think you need one more bit of security, you should probably add a much larger safety margin, like 50% or 100% or 200% more bits of security.

Crypto experts routinely have their own systems broken. How do you honestly think you will fare?

Korean computing is terifying - some examples

[bastard formula]

After a year here I still have trouble figuring out the culture. My experience in the computing area has scared the hell out of me. Our school network is plagued with problems of which could be solved by 3 hours of a decent techs time. Instead they just reformat the machines manually from time to time. The CD drives which are required for some of the courses I teach rarely work, because they have put non tower cases on their sides no one would even consider putting them the right way. Our school grade book software employed some of the worst design I have ever come across coupled with a set of activeX controls which broke after installing MS Security updates (It stayed broken for any computer with the updates for about 7 months.) Everyone uses sites like naver and daum and thinks they are great. In fact when I go into the korean teachers room they are generally talking on cell phones and buying purses off naver. There are huge numbers of PC rooms in every neighborhood and most of them seem to be equally badly administered. Next to our school building there is a place called techno world which consists of 8 floors all but two of which are packed with very small individual retailers selling basically the same crap as the people next to them for the same price. I needed a firewire drive enclosure and out of the 40+ stores which sold computer parts and computers one of them had one firewire enclosure. I'm pretty certain that if there were a gang of malicious money hungry hackers out fluent in windows and hangul there they could quite quickly do millions of dollars in fraud without much effort. On the upside the number of apple stores has quadrupled since I got here, of course half the machines in each store are running XP. Also, someone will deliver a decent Korean meal for $3.50 or so.

Re:Korea is stuck using Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what else is amazing - I can use any tomato when I make pasta sauce. I can use any manufacturer's philips screwdriver to turn a philips screw. I can use any chair with my desk. I can use any gasoline in my car.

The amazing thing is that computer customers accept sole-source-vendors while no other industry does.