Slashdot Mirror
Should MMOG 'Play' Be Confined?
Arti writes "Eve Online is famous for hosting the world's first virtual IPO, and also for its Byzantine 'meta game', in which players create fake characters and accounts to infiltrate each other's organisations for intelligence, theft or sabotage. More recently the game has seen the rise of Kugutsumen an intel blog whose creator has been accused of using real-world hacks to obtain secret information from other player forums and private messages. Some players are up in arms at the use of such out-of-game tactics. On the other hand, Kugutsumen claims these techniques have uncovered evidence of corruption. Quite aside from the legal ramifications of attacking other people's web forums, should game companies tolerate forms of 'play' that involve out of game illegality? Should they attempt to monitor and punish these kinds of activity using sanctions in-game, where the company writes the rules? This ties right back in to the discussion of Real Money Transfer we've been having over the past week. Where does the line between 'play' and 'cheating' lie?"
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
There already laws on the real world?
Just like looking to solve a specific problem, somebody else has solved it.. Same goes for crime.
If you just thought of it, somebody else has already done it, and went to prison for it.
This story as as pointless as anything else "E". E-Mail, E-Voting, E-Chair.
Don't treat them as such. Their influence begins and ends with the game. They can punish cheating in the game but not breaking into someone's computer outside the game.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
My Eve Corporation's greatest enemy is a player named "Achomemnon".
Currently he's in the trunk of my car.
What? Its all just part of the game people!
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Quite aside from the legal ramifications of attacking other people's web forums, should game companies tolerate forms of 'play' that involve out of game illegality?
Is it not so simple as just saying that violation of state or federal law is also a violation of the TOS?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
...should game companies tolerate forms of 'play' that involve out of game illegality?Of course they should. The entire point of games is to have fun, not break the law. Games should, IMHO, allow you to do things that you can't do in real life, not reward you for doing them in real life. If someone can't seperate a game from reality they shouldn't be allowed to play it. To put it another way, if you are so involved in a game that you are willing to break the law to gain an advantage then you are not responsible enough to be allowed to play that game.
Devs will never, ever win against such spies. There's simply no way they can monitor all out-of-game communications.
An MMO is left with three options: promote this sort of activity because it further "involves" players in the game's happenings (this option is probably best for hardcore MMOs); take a neutral stance on the issue; design the game in such a way that out-of-game spying and intel-sharing is ineffective at changing the course of the game. This last option is the most difficult, of course, but it's the only way I can see of combating spies and saboteurs. Examples might include instanced gameplay elements that are impossible to predict or, in the case of a military game, an emphasis on small battles so that spies could never uncover a single masterstroke battle plan and spoil the fun.
One of the reasons that a warfare MMO/FPS/strategy game would be difficult to implement is because there's no way to secure all forms of communication. The game would not be fun if the enemy knew operational details because of a mole in command. This might very well be realistic, but try explaining that to all the players who just got owned upon launching their attack.
In PlanetSide, players would IM commanders in the opposing Empires and give them a heads up before we launched a huge raid. Even so, we would still have an advantage because it takes several minutes - if not an hour - for the other team to trickle to the battle.
It is generally impossible to keep out-of-game (OOG) activities from affecting the in-game play. Instead of despairing, I would say that most of what happens OOG can be explained in terms of the VW, and thus work it into the game. Example: developers could try to code the ability to hack into other player's virtual, in-game web sites into the game, and it maybe work well, maybe not. Or, they could just let RL spying take care of that aspect, and it would obviously "be done right". The main drawback here is that only those players who actually have the RL know-how can participate. Also, OOG physical interaction still crosses the line, obviously. So, as long as players are keeping their activities online, I say we don't need to make a distinction between activities explicitly in-game and those OOG but involving the game. It may as well be your avatar doing both.
A player of the popular on-line game "EVE Online" was recently convicted of hacking several servers for information on his opponents. He was sentenced to 30 in jail and finded $50,000. Oh, and his EVE Online account was deleted, too.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
Instead of confining MMOG play, we should probably focus on confining MMOG players. * Note: I play WoW.
Seriously, how does a game company monitor sites external to themsleves? They can't, they won't, they don't. If people are getting their sites hacked, then you bring in law enforcement. Ultimately, it is just a game (and it is a pretty boring one...I know, I play it). Should Blizzard take my Epics if I am caught shoplifting the expansion pack?
The story may be interesting...but the questions being asked are not the right ones.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
The only reason for CCP (owners of EVE) to take legal action against someone for breaking real world laws is if the crime was against CCP itself.
In a lot of countries, if you witness a crime and fail to report it, you can be considered as an accomplice in the crime. So if CCP had evidence of one player commiting a crime against another player (and not necessarily CCP itself, as you said) - they probably should inform the authorities. Dunno what the exact laws are in Iceland though.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I've been a regular EvE player for over a year now, and I've been following these discussions in the EvE-Online forums with some interest.
p ic&threadID=468189) and now we're hoping that something will be done.
The character Kugutsumen is the head of an in-game intelligence-gathering organization that has been doing these types of things for some time now, involving multiple corporations and alliances, usually under contract from their enemies, other times for his own personal gain.
His methods (which include bribing, forum infiltration, TS/Vent spying, etc) have been used in the past by some of the largest alliances, specifically the (arguably) most powerful one in game, named Band of Brothers (BoB), yet no one has made as big a deal out of these events in the past as now, because of one major issue: developer involvement to tip the scales in the favor of specific in-game alliances.
To sum it up, Kugutsumen has posted a number of logs obtained from 'private' BoB forums which point to one or more developers being members of BoB, and providing intel regarding future game event locations, war target information, and most of all, giving Tech2 blueprints to corporations in BoB.
This is a big problem, because normally Tech2 blueprints are used to build 'rare/epic'-type weapons/ships/equipment, and can be highly profitable and provide a distinct advantage not only to those that possess them, but also to those who use said items.
These blueprints are handed out in a lottery fashion, where everyone can have a chance at owning one, but in this case, someone from CCP (the company that created EvE), possibly a developer or GM, has apparently given multiple blueprints to BoB, which is a enourmous slap in the face to the rest of the community which is constantly asking for the Tech2 blueprint distribution system to be balanced.
Some of the other logs also seem to point to high-ranking members of BoB giving access to special areas of their space to Ebay currency sellers in exchange for a cut of the profits, character accounts being traded or sold between members, and other things which are strictly forbidden by EvE's EULA.
This is why there is such a large reaction on the forums. BoB is trying very hard to throw off the focus of the discussion to the methods in which this information was obtained, because their very existence as an alliance is being put in jeopardy by the allegations that CCP's development or GM team members have engaged in actions that benefited them. This is not the first time that CCP staff have abused their status; last summer, a 'rookie' GM spawned a rare ship completely fitted with high-end rare items, which was blown up by 'accident' by a BoB-allied corporation member and some of its items looted. The GM was fired for this, but the story was never completely explained to the general community (CCP reserves the right to control how much information is disclosed about investigations such as these).
So there you have it. The most powerful alliance in EvE is accused of cheating with the help of CCP employees, and now the rest of the player-base wants to know what is going on. Only because Kugutsumen and a number of the SomethingAwful Goons made a number of posts in the EvE-Online forums did this become such a huge issue, forcing CCP to address it publicly (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=to
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
...and I've been following the thread on the Eve-online forum avidly.
... which is why I like it; only the strong survive, and the 'weaker' (ie less dedicated/less interested or no interest in unconsentual PvP combat) are quickly winnowed out, or forced to remain within 'Empire space' bascially a sandbox which while a little safer is by no means 100% safe.
I've played Eve-online for over a year now, and as stated it is indeed the most brutal, darwinistic multi player game on the net that I know of; utterly unforgiving of mistakes and weakness
In a way, I'm glad the accusations have come to light - firstly, it took repeated forum spamming by 'Goon fleet' (an alliance/guild within the Eve universe) before the Devs within CCP (owners of Eve-online) finally made a statement regarding the issues; I gather the impression that had they had not repeatedly spammed the forums, the current investigation that is being carried out would not have been initiated.
Secondly, there have indeed been several instances as of late where certain players have known of information that could only have come from CCP employees.
The biggest issue at the end of the day is that CCP employees are also allowed to actually play the game itself, and as players are expected to give their loyalty to their corp/alliance, while simultaneously remaining true to CCP's doctrine and not give out any internal information that would aid player alliances/corps.
And that in a nutshell is what started this current uproar. The players are stating that each and every time a CCP employee logs on as a player, he or she has a clear conflict of loyalties, and they are asking for clarification from CCP regarding this.
In my opinion, the vast majority of CCP employees who play the Eve online game are honest and genuine. However, it only takes on single misguided Dev to leak information, and much is ruined, which seems to be the case here.
Having read Kugutsumen's blog, I cannot of course say that it is genuine. I can however say it is believable.
Hopefully in the future CCP Developers will no longer be allowed to maintain positions within PvP alliances, and the clear conflict of interest will be avoided; as to if that will actually happen however, remains to be seen.
Huh, it looks like CCP is interested in having one of the people who plays the game 15 hours a day working as a GM. Crazy idea, having people who enjoy playing your game working for your company.
I'm sure almost everyone at CCP plays the game. They have put the same or more hours into their characters than any of the other players. Sure, there are CCP alts in all of the big alliances. If you've been playing Eve for years and years there's really nothing else challenging or interesting besides alliance politics and operations. These guys are just as attached to their characters as you would be after years of play. They have reputations that they don't want to risk by unfairly intervening in the game world.
I understand that the devs are only allowed to play on the live server using a release client and that the GM tools will only work if the connection is coming from inside CCP. CCP has fired GMs in the past for cheating as well, so don't think that it goes unnoticed or silently tolerated.
Acy Stapp
-- Too lazy to get a lower UID.
So if there's a log on the company's server of someone brute force hacking my account password, they shouldn't do anything about it? What if someone announces specifics of an illegal action they plan to perform during a large online event and then the next day you read about such an action in the paper, should someone report the character who announced the action?
Anyway, the initial question is stupid. It is entirely too broad for something so complicated. It's like asking "if someone kills someone else, should the person be punished?" You can't say "yes" because then what do you do with soldiers or the guy who flips the switch at a death sentence. There is no simple answer without knowing specifics. In the majority of circumstances, I agree that the company should stay out of things, but besides the circumstances of the action, the company's policies come into play as well. If a company (like Blizzard) claims that they own everything the game, then certain actions would require them to take legal action outside of the game. Games like Second Life have other problems because they actually pay people for material created in the. Old school Ultima Online shouldn't have any problems because they have never seemed to care whether people sold gold or accounts online, so as far as they are concerned, nothing outside of the game has anything to do with them at all. The point is, there is no simple answer, and (at least IMO) slashdot shouldn't be posting such thoughtless, naive, simple questions.
I'm suprised no one else has mentioned this. WORLD OF WARCRAFT~@~#$%
:-) .
Blizzard has routinely banned accounts due to "real-money for in-game gold transfers" and many other things. There are articles that put the number in the tens of thousands of accounts banned for activity out of game such as this.
Do I agree with what they do... well I no longer care, I recently freed myself from the game... for a second time, this time is for good I swear, I even uninstalled
I finally realized that MMOs will always be "Just a game", and my time is much better spent elsewhere, with people, in RL.
If this guy has gone to the point where he hacks outside of game for ingame intelligence... perhaps he too should uninstall..
No words of wisedom here.
I've played EVE for about two years now and while it's true that such things invariably happen, it's also great as a game.
Anything in-game goes. If you can find a way to do it in-game, the devs take a pretty blind eye to it. Selling ISK(EVE currency) for real money, hacking computers, and so on are of course, all wrong and illegal, and CCP rigorously tries to stop it as much as they can. But, in-game, if you can scam someone, such is life. There are good factions who hunt down pirates, pirates, and everything inbetween. It's the ultimate "sandbox". It's dangerous but incredibly mepowering as a player at the same time.
Most problems like this are minor at best. So someone gets intel or a nice gift or gimmie due to GM favoritism. It's been that way since MUDs and BBBs'. With 30,000 players online at times now, and a total player base of several hundred thousand - all on one server - it's a very minor blip. The thing's so huge almost nothing really makes a difference anymore. Not even a blip in most cases.
Compare EVE to WoW or other games where player cheating nearly took the game's economic system down with it. EVE is remarkably robust - nearly indestructable. So the same things that affect most games and are a huge problem aren't a big deal - and in some cases are encouraged.(evil grin)
And it costs a lot less than WoW and most other games. The App is free to download and they give you a nice discount - like 1 year for $99 last I checked.
The virtual items this current issue revolves about were worth at least $10,000 USD at the time when the GM awarded them to his guild. They've since dropped in value because of game balance changes but are still easily worth $5,000. On top of that is the interest gained from their possession which in Eve Online can reach several percent _a month_.
The accusation now thrown around is of course that the GM created those items with his administrative powers.
I read the EVE forum thread about the matter. It was very interesting, and what was said takes on dramatically different meanings if you have a particular bias one way or the other on the matter. I'm a once and future EVE player. That is to say, I played EVE, I enjoyed it, and I'll probably play again in the not-too-distant future, but I'm not currently playing, and haven't for several months.
I'm not a member of BoB or Goonfleet, and have never been. I've never been part of any corporation larger than 10 people, for that matter. I do have a vague bias against Goonfleet, because I hate what SomethingAwful stands for, and have been attacked and harrassed on other game sites (for things that had nothing to do with the game) over matters that are popular SA targets.
So, that's my disclosure on my lack of bias on this matter.
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A known hacker (Kugutsumen, aka AnthonyZ, among other aliases) hacked BoB's off-game forums, and made off with documents, including forum posts and private messages from said forum. He then posted what he claims is complete and unedited information, claiming that it's proof that a Dev (developer) has been directly aiding BoB with knowledge and/or abilities that the average EVE player does not have access to. One of Goonfleet's higher-ups, The Mittani, corroborated the claims that Kugutsumen does indeed hack sites in order to gain information and advantages (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=top ic&threadID=468189&page=3 -> Page 3 of the thread in question), and has done so to Goonfleet in the past. He didn't confirm whether Kugutsumen posted the information whole and complete, or altered it in any way.
Now, that said, it's clear from Kugutsumen's blog that he profits from strife - he directly hires himself out for hacking, and asks for donations for the public posting of the information gathering that he does. His methods are generally considered illegal (although they aren't where he is supposedly from).
Kugutsumen posted several private mails that supposedly prove that Lord Stone is a CCP employee, and that he revealed to at least one other player that he is a CCP employee. He posted more private mails that implied that Ishos Rerajan was a CCP employee who donated several T2 Blueprints to RKK before being suspended. Lastly, he has inferred that Al Haquis is also a CCP employee. There are also other claims of wrongdoing - feel free to browse his forum for details.
The question that everyone should be asking is, "Is any of this credible?" Is this genuine information, or is it a carefully-crafted web of half-truths? I doubt that anyone outside of the involved parties could ever say for sure.
CCP's Community Manager, Kieron, explained in brief the previous incident where a CCP employee (a GM) was caught spawning items for himself. He was fired, and the entire incident was publicized by CCP, not hidden or swept under the rug. I think this fact alone shows where CCP stands on the matter. Kieron has stated that this matter will be investigated, and that the results of the investigation will be announced. Enough said about that.
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All of this hoo-ha on the public forums has had a number of people proclaiming loudly that CCP employees should either not ever play the game, or should have their play characters exposed to the public. Both of these are absurdly bad ideas.
In the first matter, I'd like to post a rhetorical question. Have any of you ever had to call customer service for anything and ended up talking to a representative who was clearly reading from a checklist, and didn't actually have the first idea of what they were doing? Think about that for a moment...
In order for CCP staff to be able to experience the play environment properly (and for ISD:STAR volunteers to