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TiVo Selling Data on Users' Watching Habits
Gyppo writes "The San Francisco Chronicle reports that TiVo is collecting and selling data on what parts of broadcasts people are rewinding for review and what commercials they are skipping. The data collection is part of a service the company provides to advertisers and television networks, collecting anonymous data on their users' commercial-watching habits. The data they provide is a random subset of their overall userbase, detailing which commercials are skipped and which are actually watched. The article mentions the possibility for privacy abuse, but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
in soviet russia, TiVo watches you!!
Why UNIX?
I always assumed they did this, am I the only one?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal
Didn't we know this back when the whole Janet Jackson/Super Bowl thing happened? Maybe this is running today in honor of the anniversary of that.
Thank goodness for my MythTV box.
I'm inclined to think that maybe this is a good thing. If no individual privacy is being trampled, then it's good for TiVo to have another revenue stream and a way to keep networks and advertisers happy, since generally the content providers have been working pretty hard to fight against DVR.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
I'd love to know who they're selling it to, though. Choicepoint comes to mind... and that's a very scary thing, letting prospective employers know what I watch.
Except they're not selling individually identifiable information. What they're selling is aggregate data (eg, 12% of commercial skippers went back and watched the new ad for Colgate). Then again, I shouldn't expect you to know that, since it's only mentioned in the summary...
and that's a very scary thing, letting prospective employers know what I watch.
You mean, the Discovery network's new Tinfoil Hat Channel?
Which part of not-tied-to-personal-accounts are you not getting? Personally, I'm happy if the data they're aggregating delivers messages such as "80% of our viewers think your 'Head-On! Apply Directly To Your Forehead' pain reliever ads are the broadcast equivalent of gerbil vomit" to the people who buy, sell, and produce the ads.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
In the article, refers to what services its "clients" want--but Tivo isn't talking about all the people who forked over cash for Tivos and pay an over inflated monthly subscription. No, the people Tivo considers its clients are the media companies it sells viewership data to.
It would be nice if Tivo would think of its loyal customers as clients rather than a captive audience to sell data about and to force feed advertisements to. I think it is a legitimate point to think that Tivo might wish to consider putting its retail customers first, since without them they are nothing. The attempts to monitize their customers as if they are an asset owned by Tivo seems like a good way to alienate retail customers and to potentially hurt Tivo sales.
I don't know if this is the same with standalone TiVos, but my DirecTV TiVo box is always on, and always 'recording' two channels. Which means there's pretty much 24 hours a day of stuff I'm watching without skipping anything, plus stuff I am watching and skipping.
Now, they could be ignoring Live TV, but... then they're ignoring when people watch live TV, which I think would be fairly important to advertisers.
Personally I don't care if TiVo (or DirecTV) collect viewing habits, as long as they remain anonymous. I just don't think it's accurate at all.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
This isn't news. Sure feel free to get up in arms about marketing companies knowing what an anonymous hashed identity is watching.
Please note, that the supermarkets do exactly the same thing. Why do you think loyalty cards exist?
Deleted
I think an end result (and to some an unexpected result) is TiVo can make life better for everyone with this "service". I've always been a huge fan of TiVo, since they arrived on the scene, so forgive some obvious bias.
How can they make it better? Tivo can supply information to providers of content, and advertisers more valuable than any surveys or polls. Tivo can give real time info (rolled up) of what and how viewers watch their show (and ads). An end result would (potentially) be eventual extinction of really annoying and bad ads... by dint of the fact noone watches them when given an opportunity to skip.
The same goes for content... if noone records a show, or watches it on Tivo buffer, its well earned demise can be accelerated.
Tivo demonstrated just how granular their data are by their disclosure that the Janet Jackson "clip" was the most replayed segment of the Super Bowl... wth? they actually know down to a few seconds of snippets.
Yeah, there may be privacy issues there... but there are privacy issues everywhere, even when there were (are there still?) Nielsen families. My gut tells me there isn't too much interesting in viewers habits other than what they're watching and how much of they're watching. The game is about making money and selling product.
Tivo finally gives the providers feedback that I'd wished for years ago... immediate, and absolute.
TiVo has long since confirmed this was a practice since delivering that Janet Jackson's infamous Super Bowl "wardrobe malfunction" was the most replayed event in TiVo history.
~ milesy20
This attack may come from someone who cracks the system and uses it to spy on others, or the attack may come from law-suits which (for whatever reason I can't currently imagine) demand that TiVo turn over records of what a particular person was watching. Or maybe this attack will never come.
I would argue that avoiding these kinds of systems is not paranoid... moreover I would argue that avoiding them is necessary. Do not let yet another system be co-opted to monitor you! Even if it is 'for a good cause' (and I'm not convinced that advertising is 'a good cause') it can eventually be used against you.
In short, I'm just going to add this to the list of reasons I prefer MythTV. My device, my control, my privacy.
This has been part of Tivo's business plan since the beginning.
A court just blew the cableTV proprietary platform bundle wide open: TV decoders are now open to outside vendors/deployers, starting July 1, 2007. That means that complete "cable cards" will become much cheaper, and that really cheap HW will send the raw data to PCs to be decoded in SW, which can be F/OSS.
The cable TV network just became a lot more like an internet, and the Internet just became a lot more like a TV network. For those working on it ourselves, anyway.
So when does MythTV make TiVo look like the Web made AOL look?
--
make install -not war
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
"The article mentions the possibility for privacy abuse, but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
This distinction is wrong. Anonymity and privacy are two completely separate concepts. A person's privacy can easily be abused even if his data is kept anonymous. Most people understand information being kept "private" to mean used only for the limited purposes for which they disclosed it, and not re-disclosed in any manner, anoymous or otherwise, unless they agree.
The reason for this is obvious - even anonymous data can be used against you in a manner which is adverse to your own interests. Do you really think Tivo is using this data to help people or further those people's interests? No, Tivo is trying to use this "anonymous" data in a way which is at odds with their users' interests - trying to figure out how to defeat any given individual's commercial-skipping, for example.
Please don't confuse anonymity and privacy. De-identified data can still be used in many ways which are adverse to your interests.
Tivo must make three groups happy: Stockholders, Customers and Broadcasters. It seems like collecting and selling statistical information can't help but to improve the mood for the least-happy group -- the broadcasters. Having a way to easily survey 20,000 random households to determine which super bowl ads were the most liked (e.g. played more than once per Tivo), determining if people are skipping or watching opening credits to shows, and determining how many people "bail out" in the middle of a new show are all feedback that may help the broadcasters learn that Tivo is not all evil. As a customer, my biggest privacy concerns are addressed by their Privacy Policy, which clearly states that nothing personally identifiable is collected and that they have an opt-out option for even the anonymous stuff. To make me a really happy customer, I wish that they would return the life-time subscription (even if only available to broadband customers) and that they would figure out how to turn a profit, so that I can be sure that my current Tivo does not someday turn into a boat anchor.
That stands for Hardware Rights Management. TiVos (series 2 and above) are paperweights without this endless subscription "service." As much crap as everyone here gives Microsoft, at least Linux is an option to make PC hardware bundled with Windows operable. TiVos are so locked down via hardware that they are virtually uncrackable and useless without the TiVo extortion payments. Go on the TiVo forums, and all the sheep there call you a thief for merely wanting to use your TiVo without the "service," even as a push-to-record DVR. TiVo has all the sheep fooled into thinking their eternal fees are justified for the privilege of using hardware that the end user bought and owns! Imagine if Microsoft - or GM - tried locking up your hardware (including locking out linux) if you didn't pay an eternal license fee!
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
"...selling data on what parts of broadcasts people are rewinding for review..."
This can only result in more nudity on TV. Woohoo!
OK, it'll be naked people holding pepsi bottles, but what the hell. Maybe they could do something with them, hint hint.
I quit!
Oh come on. Everyone with a TiVo (and even those without) should know that TiVo collects this type of anonymous, aggregate data. Haven't they done that since the beginning? Did you really think they wouldn't provide that data to third parties?
And frankly, I think it's a good thing. You guys bitch and moan when your favorite TV shows get cancelled because the Nielsen families' interests aren't representative of your own. You guys bitch and moan about advertisers not making more interesting commercials. Well, here you have TiVo, making geek-friendly devices collecting television data about shows and commercials that tech enthusiasts actually watch, and now you guys bitch and moan about that too.
This is old news. It is also very easy to opt-out. Just call Tivo customer service (1-877-367-8486) and let them know.
I know that the collective memory of the Slashdot moderators is less than a day, but this story came out during the 2004 Superbowl:8 31222
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/03/1
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
I am sure data mining was a thought out revenue stream that TiVo had planned since it's inception.(One reason I never bought one.) Once a critical mass hits it's Tivo's usage, TiVo can sell on going, up to date statistics- Ratings better than Nielson. TiVo didn't build these only to make our lives easy. Follow the money.
I support tivo doing this. as long as it's not personally identifiable information.
maybe fox wouldn't have cancelled firefly had they known how many people actually watched it.
I also like that they provide info on commercials.
this is the first time, I believe, outside of focus groups that companies have feedback on their commercials.
I personally skip every commercial I can.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Why assume anything, when Tivo spells out exactly what they are doing. Of course, you assumed this information didn't exist, and didn't bother to take the 30 seconds to find it.
As someone who has owned a Tivo since about 6 months after they first came out. I was told from day one that they would collect data anonymously on me IF I did not opt-out. Now, I thought very seriously about this issue at the time. I normally opt-out of this kind of stuff but Tivo is one of the LEADING examples of hacker friendly companies selling consumer electronics products. I decided that I wanted to support their business plan since thanks to their hacker friendly policies I was able to upgrade my tiny 14 hr Tivo to an 80+ hour Tivo by myself. At any time before, now, or in the future Tivo could download code to detect and disable my hacked Tivo but they don't because they think differently than 99% of the other companies out there! I think they deserve some F***ING RESPECT & SUPPORT for being a company that is hacker friendly.
Remember this is not Sony root-kitting your PC, this is Tivo letting you hack the system they sold you. Not only that, I can only think of ONE other company (Garmin for my GPS) that continues to give me both bug fixes and actual enhancements to a product which is so old. I happen to have a lifetime subscription to Tivo, back from day one, when it only cost $150 and the only money they have made off of me since is from this anonymous data that I voluntarily allow them to collect! Tivo astonishingly, given the quality of their product and hacker tolerant policies, still isn't a highly profitable company. Maybe, the other 99% of the companies have it right economically - screw the hackers - but I think we should give credit to those who dare to challenge the established ways of treating customers. Suing your customers and root-kitting their computers is what we should be opposing not collecting anonymous data with full disclosure and an opt-out option.
If you chose to go with MythTV or Freevo instead of TiVo, your hardware cost will probably be much higher than an off-the-shelf TiVo unit. So yes, TiVo customers have "forked over cash" but they probably forked over less cash than they would have for an alternative system.
As for the subscription price being "over inflated": $13 per month is just under $.45 per day. Is 2 quarters a day really an over-inflated price for a service that automates recording my favorite shows and allows me to fast-forward commercials that I don't want to watch? (Usage data will reveal that I tend to watch the Geico "cavemen" commercials.) Yes, that's infinite magnitudes more expensive than a free service like XMLTV but realistically it's not a horribly expensive amount to pay. If you can't spare $.45/day then you probably can't afford a PVR to begin with.
Yes, I'm a TiVo user and I'm quite content with the service and the price. At the end of the day I don't care if they look at my usage habits because I hope that the companies will finally realize which ads suck-ass. If the big-brother syndrome gets to the point where someday a company won't hire me because The Great Database says I watched too much Aqua Teen and not enough CSPAN... I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Tivo has never hidden their desire to collect and resell data. They tell advertisers what commercials people watch, which SuperBowl clip gets replayed over and over again, and have started to provide data feed to the Neilsen ratings people. Think about about this, what you watch on Tivo can feed into ratings decision machine. I'm also a lifetime subscriber and take advantage of the ability to download and move recordings around. I know I could do this myself, but being able to put a remote in the hands of a 10 year old, or my wife and just have it work tm makes it all worthwhile. Tivo is in business to return something to their shareholders, as long as they make a reasonable product I hope they stick around. This isn't news to anyone who's looked a a setup screen or user guide. It's not like they're changing a privacy policy to squeeze a few more dimes out of each user.
Ditto. Plus if this influences producers to makes more of the ads that I like, more of the TV shows that I like, more of the products that I like, what's the problem?
Agreed, but finding equilibrium is important because if the equation becomes too lopsided the companies disappear (less content) or the viewers disappear (less marketable population). Neither situation is a truly good thing.
Sure, you could get a dial-up ISP for that cost, but I sincerely doubt you can get basic cable for that price (any links?). You could look up shows for free on ad supported sites and then manually program a recorder - or the TiVo unit can automatically download the listing and make sure that my shows are always recorded. I'm not paying $13/month for a program guide, I'm paying $13/month for the whole service package.
Wrong. You seem to think that if TiVo gets worse their subscribers don't have other options. Almost every cable provider in my area has their own DVRs, there's also MythTV and Freevo. When the cost of TiVo, both subscription and "pain" from ads, exceeds the value I get from the system I can simply cancel my subscription. If enough people follow suit, TiVo would obviously have to rethink their strategy.
Remember, as much as you hate advertisements they are the ones footing the bill for any shows you like. The measly "$13" that you think basic cable costs simply provides you access to the content. If sponsors start bailing on TV shows because they can't generate ad revenue any more, how do you think new content will be generated?
I've read all of the replies, but I choose you to respond to as I thought yours was the most well-thought out. Not a single reply told me anything I didn't already know, however - I am aware of all of the issues brought up. I just think that there is a time to stand on principle, and this isn't one of them.
I never said "let them go through everything of mine...etc." I did say that when data comes in or leaves my house via a cable, I understand that that data is not secure from anyone. We are talking about what one watches on TV. I will repeat again : I do not care if someone knows what I watch on TV. I guess from the replies that some people are porn watchers - I don't do PPV, so I can't comment on that. Now, maybe you email "secret" things that could get you in trouble, but I don't. I'm not a criminal, and I doubt many people are interested in my bitching to my friend about The View. Here is the important part : if I *WAS* trying to hide information, I would damn well know better enough than to put it in an email and send it out from my IP.
This does not meant I *want* everyone reading my email, or think it's even right; but it is a fact of the technological world we live in. I learned this long ago. You simply don't say anything in email that you don't wish someone else to see. Now, I'm not talking petty BS, but anyone that trusts email with vital information is a fool. It is simply not secure in the first place, so if a hacker can find your "deleted" email out there, don't tell me anyone in the gov't couldn't as well. It's just common sense to me, really.
I actually understand and defend privacy rights quite often. However, in this case, I truly believe television data is wholly innocuous. Some paranoid person below said, "Yeah, but what if the FBI sees me watching a show on illegal drugs! OMG!" I'm sorry, but if the FBI is running around checking who watches "The History of Drugs" on the History Channel and then getting warants for peoples houses to search for drugs...I'll eat my left nut. This isn't to say somehow, somewhere this data could not be used against you if you commit a crime or whatnot - but in this case, that risk is worth the benefits of owning this OPTIONAL PRODUCT.
So I know many people thought my initial post was ignorant, but it actually was very well thought out in the sense that I know what people "think I should think" about this, but the realist in me just doesn't buy it. I simply don't believe that television watching data is important, and I'm actually glad the companies know what I watch since I'm not a Nielsen family. I know that people sit on "principle" that every thing is sacred, but I just don't care. Television is so innocuous that you really can't make assumptions based on what is watched - I'll grant that I didn't think about Porn in my first post (though I think it's funny people would be ashamed of it - if you like it, the vanilla kind you can get over cable can't be that damaging LOL), but other than that : are their Satan Worship shows? Are there "Join the KKK" shows? What is this awful TV that people are watching that they are afraid of? I don't believe anything that damaging is actually broadcast, which I think is my main reason for not giving a crap.
I understand the point; it's contextual. Since there is no such thing as an illegally broadcast TV station or program that your TiVo could record, there is no single show that is somehow "wrong" to watch - that was my point in bringing up Raven, it's what people are ashamed to say they enjoy, not a show that is "wrong" to watch. The problem is if someone had this data and began making assumptions about you based on it; the individal parts of the data are irrelevant on their own.
You see, I know people label me as one of those "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then why hide" people, and I admit it probably sounds that way. I'm truly not in most cases. But I also know when to pick my battles, and TiVo simply isn't one of them f