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CCP Speaks on Allegations of Misconduct in Eve
Arti writes "Last week the hacker spoke, raising questions for many about how game companies should deal with 'out of game' tactics. What about the game companies themselves? The man behind Kugutsumen.com alleged that CCP employees had been involved too intimately with the game's top alliance, Band of Brothers (who, ironically, have publicly described themselves as 'omnipotence itself'). These claims were made based on posts apparently hacked from the alliance's private forums. CCP promised to look into the allegations. Now they report in a post that many players say is inadequate and does nothing to address a crisis of confidence in CCP's oversight of its employees. Developers need to understand the games they make, and deserve to enjoy them, but how far? And what should a company do when an issue like this pits it against some of its own customers?" Blues News has an excellent summary of the thread's contents, distressing though they be.
You can't do that in a game like this. One of the major restraints on out-of-game play in WoW is the the many servers invovled. Also the "unique", "epic", and "soulbound" objects prevent any wholesale selling of in game items. That being said, I am sure the farmers would be more than happy to farm for your epic for a fee. Combined with the "threat" of being banded, it regales out-of-play as kind of deviant, not-acceptable. Besides, you have to become self sufficient at one point in the game, or it just stops being fun.
Eve, however, is DESIGNED for everything to be up for grabs. You can buy, sell, and make anything provided you have the resources. Even if you spend the "real" cash for all the ISK you want, it doesn't mean dick of you don't have the skills (defined by time) to use the stuff you buy. Even if you do buy it, you need some kind of constant influx of ISK and materials to keep those resource heavy stations flying. Just because you have the money to buy a Titan doesn't mean you can find someone who can make it. Even if you did, it would take months to get the material together not to mention the months to learn the skills.
In the first example, because of WoW's limited world size, buying exp/gold doesn't help in the long run. At best, you get to 70 and go on some big world quests, but by skipping over allot of the world, its just boring. Its quest based and when all the quests are done, there isn't much left. However, Eve is so cut-throat that your status is worth more than the price. No mater how many skills or money you have, its not enough. A dev offers to "help" his alliance by offing some pre-patch advanced ships? How about "accidentally" adding a bunch of materials for the titan the alliance is building? The lure of the dark side is too great.
I personally think this problem can be solved by limiting GM power abilities to only their internal network and any kind of world modifications go though a manager. I rather have some player screw me who plays by the same rules than some GM who can wink me out of existence. I like the freedom Eve brings, in or outside of play. I don't want it destroyed because of some dumb ass CCP employees.
Wow, you're just trolling. Do you even PLAY eve? One of the best things about the game is cutthroat play, and CCP heavily regulates anything that violates the sandbox rules. Out of game contact isn't regulated because in game contact is not regulated (with a few obvious expcetions).
The problem in THIS case is that it appears a GM was violating the rules that everyone plays by. You seem to imply that somehow those other out-of-game contacts violate the rules, and this isn't so.
The issue here is that the game is fair only so long as every player has the same set of rules.
I think you missed the point. This scandal arose from alleged Developer misconduct in providing in-game assets and intel to one group of players. When called on it, CCP mounted an investigation and reported their findings to the community, generally side-stepping the issue (though they claim more info is forthcoming).
People who pay to play need to believe they are on a level playing field.
Attacking the hacker, or lamenting the meta-game is diverting the issue.
There are no real conclusions to be drawn from this list. I'm really just pointing a bunch of stuff out.
The real issue is that some Devs used their intimate knowledge of the game mechanics to benifit them selves and ultimately their "team". These were undocumented features in the game that would take other players months to discover (if they were all discovered). They were able to secure a huge amount of items that were very valuable - items that are limited in number and nearly impossible for a player to get. This gave their "team" an enormous advantage in combat.
Most EVE players are all good with 'anythings fair in love or war' - but they expect an even playing field. Most players feel the Devs should play but not be involved in the management of 0.0 alliances and certainly shouldn't be contributing huge amounts to the economic make-up of an alliance
CCP's response didn't address this at all. Nor did it address the problem of Devs having access to server information that would provide tactical info in battle that would not usually be available to a non-Dev player.
All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
Really. All games have 'out of game' issues.
But when you have the Dev's and other employees breaking the rules and cheating by using their special priviledges, well that is a whole different story. If you're paying RL money to play in Eve, I wouldn't be surprised if this constituted as fraud (IANAL).
CCP is at fault here (Big Time) for letting their Dev's and GM's play in the game as regular players and not making sure they didn't cheat. They're more at fault for not dealing with the cheating (by firing said Dev's and GM's) when the people paying to play the game complained.
Why people are playing Eve anymore now that this has been exposed is beyond me.
That's really all gaming is (and this probably applies to sport too). You create a simpler universe with problems to solve and challenges to face. The problems are designed to be entertaining, and you can derive a sense of satisfaction from it because many familiar rules from our own universe are programmed into the games. Online multiplayer adds human conflict as another source of entertainment. That's a big part of why it's so fun.
What people do in their leisure time usually doesn't detract from what they can accomplish in "serious time". Just because they enjoy stuff like this during their time off doesn't prevent them from working towards world peace at the U.N. from 9 to 5.
That would not necessarily solve the problem, but it would at least limit it's scope. A corrupt manager could still make 'illegal' modifications to the system. I suppose his modifications could then be crosschecked.
What would get past all this is if a developer leaves a hidden and undocumented back door which bypasses all the normal logging routines. I'm not sure how CCP monitors new code being added... but with the number of new bugs introduced every patch so I'd say the chances of sneaking questionable code by are good.
Fear is the mind killer.
Just because they enjoy stuff like this during their time off doesn't prevent them from working towards world peace at the U.N. from 9 to 5.
Exactly. People getting riled up about baseball isn't saving the world, but it is engaging for people who enjoy the sport. Whether it is going out on the town with your friends, sitting on the couch, or playing video games - it is FREE time be used freely and with as much enthusiasm as you feel appropriate. What is the point of working towards a better world if all we are gonna do is work towards a better world?
Anyway, it is a big deal when people who are passionate about something find out there may be cheating going on by someone in a position of power.
"Prettiest space game ever - and also the worst and most boring space game ever...Everyone could do whatever they wanted, but all the big established guys had the power, and crushed the little folks."
Obviously your opinion, but very highly skewed, I was a casual player, darting in and out of the game (allowing my account to lapse in between), and never even joined corp. Obviously I could not fight a megacorp in their area, but there were huge areas of space to explore, goods to buy and sell (I did both), and so on.
Sure, if you wanted to mine the best minerals, or hunt the best areas of space, you needed a corp. But if you played in your means (you are just one person), it's not like anybody could really stop you.
Now, more specifically:
"crap like major newbie areas linked by unpatrolled space, that was near constantly gate-camped by people playing "pirate" in HUGE ships"
Of course, you could use the map to determine areas where there had been kills the last 24 hours and 1 hour (with the star glowing based on how many kills there had been) to get around the worst of it. Also, you could chart these areas in newbie frigates, bookmark map-points, and then jump around to those points so fast that it was practically impossible for someone to stop you. Yes, you had to plan and think, you couldn't just bull your way through it. But it could be done, and by a single player.
For the record, when I wanted to try trading, I jumped around in my big trader (Amarr bestower, I think), and never once saw a pirate in all the lawless areas I went through.
"Let's not even start talking about the economy. Man was that thing hosed."
Sorry, but that is nonsense. I as a few-month old player dabbled in production of newbie ammunition and made money because I found a few systems where new players were hunting and nobody else was selling.
There is plenty of opportunity for buying and selling and market play in the game. If you are determined to compete with the big boys, then yes you will lose. But there are so many niches you have to willfully try to fail. Just pick something small, look around, plan.
"advancement was near hopeless"
This is bald-faced lie. To advance a skill you simply pick it as your current skill to train, and you advance in that skill. No force in the game can stop that. It takes very little money to buy a huge number of skills, so for most intents and purposes any single player can advance as far as they want.
Again, you don't need to go into dangerous areas to advance. You do not gain XP for bopping rats (pirates). You simply train a skill, and it happens whether or not you are online. Nothing on earth beyond a server failure can stop you.
-Jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Even with it's many flaws, I like Eve. I keep hoping CCP does something about this soon (and not just the namby-pamby stuff they've talked about this so far - because I have a lot of friends on Eve, and I'm just getting to the point where having my smaller frigates blown up doesn't hurt so much.
For a game that's been hanging tough while others have fallen by the wayside, this news comes at a bad time. It's already a difficult game for new players to join - I really wouldn't have made it past the newbie stage if I didn't have a lot of advice from people I knew - and now the game makers themselves are found to be conspiring against other players?
You are right. You are more on topic than you know.
It is a tad better now for a new player because they give new characters about a month of training when they first start, but the game is pure hell for a new player that doesn't know anyone. It doesn't have a learning cuve so much as it haves a leaning wall. Well actually the wall is actually tilted towards you with mines every few inches.
Eve is all about the groups being dependent on your comrades, which makes these alligations all the worse. Helping your friends, hurts their enemies. But their enemies are paying customers that have no way to match this cheating.
The latest seems to be that a leader of a big guild was a dev, a dev who was perfectly aware of ebaying and account sharing in blantant disregard for the EULA and all professionalism. CCP has also banned all of the whistleblowers accounts for his actions outside of the game. Posts are being censored within minutes on the official forum. The responce is pityful. There is no confirm / deny if anything happened. It seems to be 'oh they found out who was who. Time to delete them and roll some more alt characters lol.' You know I don't even want blood, I just want transparency.
I do not pay $30 a month for two accounts for the Devs to play butt buddy and give their friends free shit//advantages, so that they use that attack me. One of my accounts just expired and it seems I have about 12 more days left on my main.
There are no Subscriptions
Goodbye Eve
Sure, you can be independent in Eve and have lots of fun. You can't be an island. You still need to make friends and have contacts. But I know players who don't go into low-sec space, and have never left their noob corps, but have plenty of fun making money legitimately. (One was well on her way to having all ship blueprints for cruisers and smaller, and made money fast enough to buy a battleship every few days.)
For awhile I was also an independent player, having fun playing cat-and-mouse, making what was for me an adequate income, and avoiding getting killed. Then I joined an alliance. (And lots of fun, stirring victory, and crushing defeat ensued.)
If there is a will, there is at least a fighting chance in Eve -- unless it comes to GM corruption. Unfortunately, when I was an avid player, Eve didn't go far enough with GM accountability.
Human nature being what it is, someone has to watch the watchmen!
Right on.
There is simply not any accountability for GMs! They can do what they want, and you can't even escalate when you suspect that there's corruption at work. An alliance mate of mine was once ordered to not escalate and was additionally ordered to tell the rest of the alliance not to petition -- as if my fellow pilot even had the authority to do that!
That's like having a judicial system with no appeals. Pure Gestapo!
The situation? After a node crash, the two hours of shield damage our fleet did to the enemy station's shields was magically undone. The enemy stole our floating drones and destroyed ships that reentered the game near the enemy base, which was only possible because of the node crash, but the GM did nothing about *that*. Our side was winning, and victory would've been inevitable but for the node crash. Very fishy!
So, were we allowed to appeal this? No. Were we even allowed to air our grievances in the forums? (Equivalent to the "Press") No.
You have to have some system of accountability for devs/GMs. Otherwise you will get corruption. From what I've seen, Eve doesn't have enough.
CCP has absolutely no control, nor authority over what their players do outside the realm of their game. If people communicate via forums or voice chat, they are free to do so. If someone decides to spy on those things, and publish the info contained within, it has nothing to do with CCP.
If a player wants to keep CCP involved in their gameplay, they need to keep it in the game. The developers stance on the cutthroat nature of the game strictly refers to ingame freedoms. They have no power if it's not on their servers.
I know this is off-topic to the article, but I felt the need to clarify to the parent.
I have been playing EVE for about a year and a half. I really like it. Sure it has some problems, but EVE is a different type of game then WOW and the other fantasy based MMO's. But some earlier comments are right about it being hard to play alone. The way the combat system is put together it's geared towards fleet warfare.
But also, I think the whole point of an MMO is to play with others, so even if I could play the game alone, it's being able to play with friends that makes it more interesting.
I clicked on that guys user URL and ended up getting a keylogger. Slashdot really needs to do something about this.
Yes, I read TFA.
But apparently you had trouble understanding my post. Let me help you with the pertinent quote:
"No limits were placed on this policy, and so what has happened since then was only to be expected."
My point was that an "anything goes" culture was accommodated and supported by management from
the outset. Those who resort to real-world social engineering have been lauded as heroes in the
EVE community -- and hence this latest tactic is a natural outgrowth of said policies.
No run along back to your beer. Its almost happy hour.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Good work, internet detective!
The tragedy of the human condition is that empathy is, by definition, impossible.
Yeah...he was pretty off base. But he did state one thing that I agree with. It is really really boring. The PvE missions repeat so that after you have done it once you know what to expect. PvP is mainly sitting at gates and killing defenseless people who hop through. There is some good PvP but you have to be in a good corp with a good alliance that embraces war. But losses are more devestating than in other MMORPGs. And the only way to get the in game currency is to grind. And that is the major flaw of the game...PvP is the only fun part...yet it forces you to PvE to participate.
Of course I am being a little overly harsh. You can PvP in a group and use the cheaper ships so it isn't a big loss. As long as you don't mind filling that role, you will PvP all you want (assuming you have people to kill). But if you want to fly the bigger ships, you will need to do a very boring grind.
My one other large criticism of the game is that it has the worst UI on the face of the planet. The people who play the game call it complexity and pat themselves on the back for being mature and intelligent...but it is just designed poorly. They consider skill having to click through 16 menus to be able to figure something out. And if you do offer any criticism, they just ask for your stuff and tell you to quit the game. Quite frankly, the game attracts griefers and jerks at a much higher rate than other games. Of course, there are good people too...you just have to look hard for them.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
I don't know about you, but most PVP I do is in a roving gang. We go out and look for people to kill. My main's in one of the bigger 0.0 alliances and I have an alt in the Privateers. We do PVP the same way in both situations. The thing is, EVE is a lot better if you're not stupid and lazy and you're flying with people who aren't stupid and lazy. Honestly, I prefer solo PVPing, but it is getting more difficult to do lately. Definately not impossible though, a properly fitted Vagabond works VERY well for solo PVP and I've been successfull soloing with interceptors and T1 cruisers as well. You just have to be smart about it, select your targets carefully, and wait for the right time. I PVP in my Rokh all the time and I have friends who use thier faction BSs in PVP. PVP in EVE is all about tatics, I've seen 2 BS and a recon kill 2 command ships, 2 BSs, and a T1 cruiser with no losses before.
Someone save me from this sanity.
Apparently, the guy who blew the lid off this whole scandal just had all of his EVE accounts banned.
Where's the evidence that CCP employees were cheating? I've seen one case where a GM had spawned rattlesnake(epic battleship) with 20 billion isk($2000 if you bought the isk with real money) of modules, he was caught and fired.
Real tragedy is the poor the dev that remained anonymous until some jackass hacked an alliance forum and ran all the IPs on the posts through an arin whois lookup. Requirement for devs who play eve is that if their identity is compromised, they lose the account. The hacker/jackass found couple posts that had an Ip originating from CCP HQ and petitioned player. The dev lost a character that he had worked on for 3 years.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
BoB used same tactics during war against ASCN (they were posting private info, details from private forums, recorded and made publicly available sessions from TeamSpeak). Noone was ever punished, in any way, for publishing all those things. For all we know, they might've as well hacked the forums/TS.
When information from BoB forums was published on eve-online forums, those threads were deleted swiftly by moderators, yet other threads (which contained information about ASCN and other alliances) remained on forums. Immediately after that, new "rules" were introduced, so BoB information could not be published anymore.
BoB then started whining how Kugutsumen hacked (without any real evidence) their forums, yet Kugutsumen claims he has received forum db dumps from BoB member. Same like BoB claimed they received ASCN forums/TS user/pass combination from ASCN members.
Those db dumps contained info which leads to conclusions that devs might have abused their position/knowledge/etc.
It led to disclosure of identity of at least 1 developer, who was BoB member. CCP then decided to ban Kugutsumen and all his accounts, on basis that he published real-life info.
Leader of BoB (Sir Molle) published Kugutsumen real-life details on eve-online forums, and guess what - he hasn't been banned, he is still playing, nothing has happened to him. Explanation? "He modified the post later on, and removed the details". Never mind that zillion people read it, and that CCP's policies do not have provisional "Publish and then edit" rules about posting real-life info. For BoB, there is always a way out.
Db dumps also contained information about BoB player purchasing account for real-life cash. However, nothing happened to him either.
Db dump also contained information about BoB knowingly allowing macroers to run plexes in their space (so they could sell virtual currency on eBay, for real money). Nothing happened.
Basically, BoB is trying to pretend as if nothing ever happened, and they have never done anything wrong.
At least 1 developer has revealed his identity to BoB members, and neither BoB nor him have notified CCP about this (CCP's policy is that dev's identities/accounts must be kept secret - if they're revealed, accounts are terminated). That player (developer) was also in charge of BoB capital ship fleet.
CCP has NOT answered to many questions from EVE community. They ignored all the questions, made bold statement which says nothing, and tried to 'forget' the whole issue.
If you want to read some of the details about this, go to: http://www.kugutsumen.com/
(no, I am not affiliated with that site, nor do I really care about it - I am just glad we, EVE players, got a chance to see information about things we have suspected for a long time - especially those of us who were in war with BoB, and witnessed many many many 'strange' things which GMs would always classify as 'bug' or our 'dreams').
The dev lost a character that he had worked on for 3 years.
Boo-frickin'-hoo.
The devs signed up with a player alliance whose mission has been, for most of its existence and certainly more than the past eighteen months, centered on stomping the life out of other player alliances. There are some individual players in that alliance who are good guys -- heck, the overwhelming majority may be, I've never done a statistical analysis. But their alliance makes a point out of befriending and backstabbing other players, deriding them in game and out as worthless and weak, and generally lording their mastery of the game over everyone else.
The devs involved weren't just frontline grunts in this alliance: one of the dev characters was a director in one of the principal component corporations of the alliance, and another was in charge of their capital ship fleet. They turned over hugely-valuable money-generating resources to their mates; they had inside information on game mechanics and future development which, even if not shared explicitly with other players, noentheless informed their decisions as leaders in the alliance.
Basically, you had CCP employees, who were being paid out of the subscriptions of the entire EVE player community, taking actions that benefited one group of players over all the others. That's unacceptable.
I am shocked, SHOCKED, i say, that a game that permits and even celebrates player vs. player griefing and models itself as a cutthroat cpitalist system would be plagued by cheating and corruption!
Please. EVE is a game for bullies and might-makes-right, power-trippers. Is it any wonder that the people who made it and run it would ascribe to those same philosophies and behaviors?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
This may be shocking and all, but....
I could care less.
I play EVE; hell, I run an up-and-coming alliance there. We do pretty well for ourselves; we just moved out into 0.0 and we've managed to establish some peace and tranquility there. We do bizzare things like smile at the neighbors, make nice with the locals, and make friends.
And you know what? I don't give a damn about what BoB is doing on the entire other side of the game universe. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect mine. Maybe one day we'll have to worry about what BoB is doing, provided we become that big of a fish.
And maybe not. I'm not going to quit playing a game over something that has absolutely no effect on me, and I'm not going to let someone else being a prick ruin my good time. If you let someone else's negative actions dictate the joys of your life, have fun hiding in a cave and screaming in impotent rage at the world every ten minutes.
Me? I've got a small alliance, in a small pond in EVE, and we're having a great time smashing pirates, breaking up gate-camps, and training new players who then become lifelong loyal members, because someone didn't instantly smear them into the wall and treat them like pricks the moment they arrived.
Even if the worst environments, if you DON'T subscribe to the worst possible behavior patterns, you gain a lot more respect - if only because people recognize quality character when they see it, even if they don't agree with it themselves.
Technological competence assures no more intelligence than any other form, just more elitism.
Anyone else hear that whooshing sound?
Limitations WERE placed on what developers can do with their personal characters. The issue here is that devs broke those rules, and it had a significant impact on the games playerbase. Your arguments have nothing to do with TFA.
This isn't about players taking the rules farther than the game makers expected, this is about the referees working to help their favorite team.
Game designers and game employees have been pulling strings in their own games since the days of UO, Empolyees selling in game items on ebay...
Anyone not remember "Bunnies of Chaos" and EQ cheating?
WoW emplyees slipping information on defeating boss monsters to their guilds early?
Nothing new here, except people's shock.
Thanks to eating disorders most chicks are reasonably good looking these days.
The problem really comes down to two points:
1: In Eve, unlike most other games, all of the real money is to be made in the manufacture of high-end limited items("Tech Level 2"). These require blueprints which are limited-run and essentially unobtainable in many cases, short of random luck(lottery - literally that - a lottery for a precious few per month out of the hundreds of thousands of accounts).
The Devs abused their positions by making it very easy for their friends to get these and then allowing the blueprints to be horded and not produced except for their own groups. For almost every item in the game prior to the last patch, there is a blueprint for it, somewhere. But since only a handful of some of these items exist and all most are in the hands of BoB and other dev-aided groups... You can see the problem. Because these allow them to effectively make as much mony as they want, since they are the only source of the items.
In plainer english - the Devs in question enabled their alliance to become a monopoly for many in-game items through cheating and unfair advantage. These blueprints, while remaining in existance, are stll churning out insane profits for the groups - even long after the Dev in question might have stopped playing. They kick the Dev's accuont, but the blueprint is still being used by his friends - and guess where the devs NEXT character joins up with?(they have to pay the game to test it - It's part of their job, afterall)
So, yes, it makes the other players mad.
Also, CCP refuses to re-release many of these blueprints, even years later, so the tiny trickle of critical parts still remains in the hands of a few individuals.
2:The Devs in question knew about special spawns, events, and locations. I have one player in my group/alliance who spent almost 18 hours with eqipment and probes to scan for a special spot where valuable items might be found(part of the game - supposedly there are thousands of these spots to be found in each region). Now imagine if a group had a list of locations given to them - no searching, no time wasted - right off the bat... clean up. I've seen it all - people in places they shouldn't be, entire systems that never appear on the market listings/info, blueprints selling for a silly low price for an hour or two only, people with faction/agent standings that are impossible to achieve(because nobody else can USE them at all)... and it goes on and on.
There's no effort to keep their own house clean. The best we legitimate players can manage is to just ignore them.
Now, it used to not be so bad - I was part of that aforementioned alliance that threatened BoB for a while and it was a close fight for a while. But recently, they have grown so huge that there's nothing to stop them - not really. And it all stems from them having silly levels of help and cheating by Devs in their early days - putting them effectively always a good few steps ahead of everyone else.
We just can't ignore BoB anymore - or as most peolpe have started calling them "Blob".