Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Area 51 To Deal With Tense Political Issues

Posted by Zonk on from the you-got-your-game-in-my-politics dept.

Since the days of the arcades, the Area 51 games have been brainless bughunts: find the aliens, shoot the aliens. When game designer Harvey Smith was hired a few years ago to work on the next iteration of the franchise, he began to despair at the lackluster story elements in the game. As he put it: "Area 51 just bored the sh-- out of me, and I was like, 'How can we make this interesting?'" As MTV News reports, frustrations with politics both in the United States and abroad led to a solution that required months of convincing executives to see implemented. Blacksite: Area 51 will feature a new and more poignant story, as the aliens become poor American citizens put in harm's way. "Wait, what if they are terrorists we helped create? What if the people supporting us in our fight against the terrorists aren't completely clean either? What if they're sending us after them now, but what if 10 years ago it was safe for them to create them?' ... So what we have in 'BlackSite' is a delta-force assassination squad hunting down and killing members of an Army training program. So on American soil, Americans are fighting Americans, basically." The game is intended to be enjoyed regardless of subject matter, but Smith hopes that gamers will accept a title that even touches on some of the issues that popular television shows deal with on a regular basis. What do you think about this? Is there room for politics in gaming, or do you just want to shoot stuff?

80 of 102 comments (clear)

  1. Fallout did some of this... by seebs · · Score: 3, Informative

    Fallout 2's explanation of how the holocaust happened blamed American politics. :)

    I am all for having some story to games. It's generally a plus.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    1. Re:Fallout did some of this... by Cadrys · · Score: 1

      F2 however had tounge firmly in cheek the whole way. This Area 51 concept is worty of tinfoil hats.

      I shall vote with my wallet and play something else.

      --

      ----
      It is often easer to gain forgiveness than permission
    2. Re:Fallout did some of this... by revlayle · · Score: 1

      Me too... but if the gameplay is bad, i can only tolerate playing through the game once if has a GOOD story (and sometimes even getting through once is trying)

    3. Re:Fallout did some of this... by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      "I am all for having some story to games. It's generally a plus."

      I agree, as long as it's an original story. The one suggested in the article sounded worryingly similar to Deus Ex which - while undeniably an amazing game - has now been done (and repeated by several other games). I think originality is the key to a good story.

      I guess we will have to wait to see what they can come up with though as often the devil is in the detail (i.e. Half-life 2 had a great story premise, but the story-telling was absolutely shite).

    4. Re:Fallout did some of this... by ectal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Execution and presentation are the keys to good storytelling. Originality is cheap.

      I will now avoid the cliche of citing most of Shakespeare's work as a key example of this--Whoops, there I go.

      That said, I doubt the story will be any good for an Area 51 game. Though I don't see anything about the basic storyline that would make it hard for someone with enough skill to weave a good story, one better than Deus Ex, even.

      --
      http://nerdcartoons.com/
    5. Re:Fallout did some of this... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      so you decide not to buy a game because the politics of the game story line hit a little too close to home? maybe you should judge it on gameplay and quality of the storyline

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    6. Re:Fallout did some of this... by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      "Execution and presentation are the keys to good storytelling. Originality is cheap."

      Hmm, after thinking about it, I agree 100% with the first sentence, it is extremely insightful (*hint*, *hint* to any moderators about). No matter how good or poor a story's core is, "Execution and presentation" will trump it in a game (this is where Half-life 2 - along with many other games - fell flat, imho).

    7. Re:Fallout did some of this... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      I am all for having some story to games. It's generally a plus.

      some? For me, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's not worth buying. Story is what made the Final Fantasy series so popular.
      My 2 cents.

  2. Plenty of room in gaming for politics. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just like there was in earlier wartime cartoons.

    1. Re:Plenty of room in gaming for politics. by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh, dear God. Careful, or you'll end up spawning a bunch of new Uncyclopedia articles. The concept of a zombie rights movement has already been done.

      --
      When someone says "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I wish done," give him a lollipop.
  3. politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think there's room for politics in the sense of relevant issues with today's politics, but I don't want polemics in my video games. I think a lot of people who want to inject "politics" really mean "polemics". They have an axe to grind. Even if it's someone who shares my general political outlook (which I highly doubt, coming from a video game designer) I would really hate to have basically propoganda in a game I'm playing.

    I mean bad story and bad dialogue and bad characterization aren't horrible enough? Now we're going to get stupid 8th-grade reading level political treatises as well? When game designers figure out how to write a script that doesn't suck maybe I'll trust them to inject politics.

    Until that day this can only end in tears. Frustrated tears of tortured gamers crying out for entertainment that doesn't suck.

    -stormin

    --
    The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    1. Re:politics, not polemics by bunions · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Until that day this can only end in tears. Frustrated tears of tortured gamers crying out for entertainment that doesn't suck.

      So business as usual then, gotcha.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    2. Re:politics, not polemics by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Funny

      I mean bad story and bad dialogue and bad characterization aren't horrible enough? Now we're going to get stupid 8th-grade reading level political treatises as well?

      Hey, sometimes it really works out well for you. Just look at Ayn Rand.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    3. Re:politics, not polemics by SalaciousPucker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Talking about politics without expressing any actual viewpoint is pointless. The purpose of debate is controversy. Rational arguments can & SHOULD offend people.

      It was fear of polemics that let a nation ignore debate on an issue as grand as war. It was our (corporate friendly) 'creative' people - hollywood & music industries - that were scared into avoiding any discussion/debate of the war in Iraq. The right wing martyr'ed the one country act that spoke their minds, and everyone else fell in line. Only now, when the war is well past being a lost cause, quite obviously, to even casual observers, can people stand up and question it. All that death, destruction and instability.....in an abuse of fear, wrapped in the flag, to sell the fear of polemics....of debate....of controversy.

    4. Re:politics, not polemics by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Talking about politics without expressing any actual viewpoint is pointless. The purpose of debate is controversy. Rational arguments can & SHOULD offend people.

      What the GP is talking about is crossing the line between presenting a moral dilemma and pushing an agenda.

      The best political plot lines ask a question. The worst try to force an answer. You most you can do without ruining a story is to suggest one by framing the story to be in favor of it, but once your characters become mouthpieces for the "correct" answer, you've lost the story.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    5. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      No - business worse than usual. It's better to not include a "feature" at all than to include it badly. It looks like we're headed for bad, horrible, awful politics.

      Someone save us please.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    6. Re:politics, not polemics by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      You're whining that a game called "Area 51" is using a standard X-Files plot device because it is too "polemic"?

      Have you ever read a book? Do ideas threaten you? Even cartoonish strawmen repudiations of your beliefs?

      Maybe you should stick to Left Behind: Eternal Forces. There is a rebellious subtext to most video games that will make you uncomfortable.

    7. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Talking about politics without expressing any actual viewpoint is pointless. The purpose of debate is controversy. Rational arguments can & SHOULD offend people.

      The purpose of debate is controversy? No, I think not. That sounds more like the CNN.com obligatory "teacher sleeps with student/ random celeb does something awful/ etc.". The point of debate is to arrive at truth, or at least somewhere in the vicinity. If controversy is necessary along that path, so be it. But controversy for the sake of controversy is good for nothing but selling papers.

      Furthermore, that's debate. We're talking about a game. I'd prefer games to have enough substance to provide fodder for interesting extra-game debates, not actually take a side in the debate. I'd prefer my games to raise issues, not try to tell me how to vote.

      This is what we expect out of good literature, and it's what I love (and all to often find missing) in sci-fi. Good art, in my opinion, should raise questions. Not try to answer them.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    8. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Dang, should have read your post before I replied. You said what I said, only with brevity. Which makes it better.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    9. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      You're whining that a game called "Area 51" is using a standard X-Files plot device because it is too "polemic"?

      No. I'm responding to the article. Novel concept. Please read it. I'll post some of it for you here:

      The game is intended to be enjoyed regardless of subject matter, but Smith hopes that gamers will accept a title that even touches on some of the issues that popular television shows deal with on a regular basis. What do you think about this? Is there room for politics in gaming, or do you just want to shoot stuff?

      Please note that the question I was responding to was a general one. I've never played Area 51, why would I whine about something I've never played? I'm "whining" that if politics are executed in games the way plot and dialogue are, games will get worse and not better for the inclusion. Or maybe you think the script of Resident Evil 4 was worthy of a Pulitzer?

      Have you ever read a book?

      No. Never. I'm frightened of all the pages. Not to mention the ideas. You never know when they might sneak into your head and take over.

      Do ideas threaten you?

      Yes, yes they do. Sometimes I cry at night.

      Even cartoonish strawmen repudiations of your beliefs?

      Especially those. Shit man, straw man talking! Proving me wrong! That's not scary to you? How did they get so damn smart? How do they know what's in my head?! And why are they 2-d?!!! Oh NNNOOOOEEESSSS!!!!!oneoneoneoneeleventyoneone

      Go troll elsewhere.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    10. Re:politics, not polemics by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      I would really hate to have basically propoganda in a game I'm playing.

      Well, one man's propaganda is another man's scripture.

      Hopefully this is something in between that will be fun to play. I know I'm looking forward to playing this conflicted-conflict game.

      I wonder how open-ended it will be. And I don't mean GTA-style. Will there will be multiple endings based on how you play it. It sounds like it could be, especially if after the game play is finished your character must face the consequences of his actions. Imagine saving the world and being executed as a traitor for doing so, or committing genocide and other atrocities and being hailed as a hero, or just selling out your own species to secure your own future with the aliens.

      Of course, not everything being so contrasting: having to deal with the consequences of doing the expedient things or failing to do the necessary things however distasteful. Sometimes you have no choice but to shoot the eight-year-old girl carrying the live hand grenade, even if she's not a zombie, ghost, or other evil undead spirit.

      OK, now I'm probably building up my own expectations of this game too much.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    11. Re:politics, not polemics by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      There is an alternative - create a story with a clear and obvious moral conclusion, but frame it in such a way to provoke outrage or self-reflection.

      I've always wanted to play alternate history games where you assume the role of victims of American tyranny, such as a slave or a native American, and then turn the tables on your oppressors.

    12. Re:politics, not polemics by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Politics has been done well in games. Final Fantasy Tactics had a pretty harsh assault on Christianity, for example (read the Germonik scriptures?). Besides, sometimes there are things that are just subtle, amusing jabs. I ran into one in FFXII the other day (I took a picture of the screen, but haven't offloaded it from my camera yet), and no, I'm not talking about the fact that the game is about a powerful empire that exploits weak desert nations for their natural resources, whose actions can be seen as "evil" even though its citizens and soldiers tend to be good people.

      Take the mindflayer hunt and talk to the petitioner. The petitioner talks about twin brother. He talks about how power hungry he is, and how dangerous he has become. The brother's name? "Ashkroft". ;)

      --
      When someone says "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I wish done," give him a lollipop.
    13. Re:politics, not polemics by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      This is incorrect though, a poorly written story with a mouthpeice is going to be horrid, but there is no reason why a story with an agenda cannot be good and intresting.

      A good story teller can tell you a story about a peice of string and make it sound amazing, a bad story writer can tell a story about the coolest thing ever and make you yawn

      --
      I like muppets.
    14. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      This is incorrect though, a poorly written story with a mouthpeice is going to be horrid, but there is no reason why a story with an agenda cannot be good and intresting.

      I disagree. No matter how good the technical execution, I don't like agenda-driven art/entertainment (regardless of whether or not I like the agenda itself).

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    15. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Well, one man's propaganda is another man's scripture.

      Well I would also hate a game that attempted to push another man's scripture. Yes, including a game that tried to push Mormon scripture. It would suck.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    16. Re:politics, not polemics by SalaciousPucker · · Score: 1

      Marketing of news networks, whether it be propagandist preaching to the converted masses or middle of the road schlock....either way they all make a buck by reporting on pandering, dead models and oddity. Corporate News is a product that occasionally reports facts, and even more & more rarely offers reason. They don't offer controversy, they offer product.

      Controversy, by definition, is a dispute...different reasoning...differing opinions....debate. Controversy is NOT questions - it's different answers - debate.

      Democracy's & republic's function poorly with debate. Without debate they don't function at all (why we are in Iraq).

      You'll never find the truth if you only ask questions. At some point you have to propose an answer. Unfortunately, answers hurt peoples faith & weakens even the most potent demagogue. Your typical Bill O'Reilly fan's head would asplode if they read Chomsky or Zinn. A multitude of answers could lead people astray from what the corporate media wants them to think. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

    17. Re:politics, not polemics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're being unfair to 8th-grade reading level political treatises by comparing them to Any Rand's work.

    18. Re:politics, not polemics by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      I attack the messenger, and you hen-peck my message. The point is most real-worldish plots are already polemic. Your argument is null in a world already populated with the likes of Splinter Cell and Rainbow 6. If you don't see the politics inherent in any real or imagined conflict, you're exactly the sort of namby-pamby audience who ruins games I might otherwise enjoy.

      Too many people are afraid of being offended, going out of their way to avoid anything that frames a reality different their own. And what's wrong with games that do cater to your preconceptions? What is more gratifying than defeating something that embodies people and concepts for which you hold real contempt? Are games supposed to be some sort of emotionless intellectual exercise?

    19. Re:politics, not polemics by pallmall1 · · Score: 1

      Frustrated tears of tortured gamers crying out for entertainment that doesn't suck.
      And games that work. Ironic that the same folks forcing an agendized political view into their game are the same folks who included the infamous computer wrecking malware known as Starforce with Area 51.
      --
      3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
    20. Re:politics, not polemics by pyrrhonist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've always wanted to play alternate history games where you assume the role of victims of American tyranny, such as a slave or a native American, and then turn the tables on your oppressors.

      There is no need to use an alternate history to find good examples of this that could be used for a game.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    21. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You'll never find the truth if you only ask questions.

      Two things. First of all, I think it's naive to assume that you're going to "find the truth" at all. There is no truth to be found about exactly which type of government works best, how much socialism, how much free-market capitalism, etc. Not that there isn't any such objective truth, but pat answers will never be found. Getting closer to the truth is a cyclic process of asking questions and proposing possible answers. Any body that says "this is it, the final concrete truth" on any given serious topic is lying or deluded.

      So I'd say the process of asking questions and proposing intelligent, open-ended possible solutions is more important that rushing in with "solutions". I'm not really sure which end of this spectrum you fall into, and I don't want to judge you, but your tone so far is a little too "the truth is obviously X" for my taste. Anyone that takes that tone in a game is going to make a game I don't want to play.

      2. And that's really the point. We're talking about what makes a good game. Even if you did find the right answers, even if you could prove they were correct: why foist them into a video game? It makes the games annoying (to people like me) and it's arguably not a great way to get your ideas spread across. People don't like to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you're going to sound like when you try to present a tight, final, immutable answer in a game. Even if you're right. You'll turn people off, whereas a more subtle question-raising approach that allows people to put the dots together is both more fun and more effective.

      This is the same way plot works in a movie/book/game. If you have to get into long-winded exposition to explain the plot, the theme, or the point of your narrative you've already screwed it up.

      Much as you seem to want to turn this into a discussion about the war in Iraq and politics in America, it's a conversation about what makes a good game. And someone trying to foist their particular political philosophy onto the players does not.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    22. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      I attack the messenger, and you hen-peck my message.

      Stop me if I'm wrong, but that's a good thing when in debate, no? Hen-pecking the message instead of attacking the message avoids ad hominem attacks or just plain non sequitors.

      Your argument is null in a world already populated with the likes of Splinter Cell and Rainbow 6.

      I'll be honest, I've played neither game very much. From what I have played, however, the philosophical implications are rather shallow at best. A traditional tale of political intrigue and killing foreign terrorists while fighting internal corruption blah blah blah. Like I said, I could be wrong, but it sounds like it has all the weighty political implications of a James Bond movie. When I think of an intellectually challenging and entertaining narrative I think of "The Left Hand of Darkness" or "Dune" or at the very least something like "Ender's Game". All of these sci-fi masterpieces have something to say and questions to raise, and do so without being bombastic or shoving an agenda in the readers face. I think you can see that you and I are really talking about different levels of intellectual engagement. I like a story that makes me think. I like a story that challenges my world view. I like a story that presents an alien world view. I just don't like stories that try to manipulate me into agreement or pontificate or lecture, etc.

      Given the track record of narratives in video games (not all video games need narratives - e.g. Civilization, but they are a part of most strategy, adventure, RPG, and FPS games) I'm fairly certain that "Dune" quality politics will be missing, whereas we will be getting the philosophical equivalent of Resident Evil dialog. I'm not exactly thrilled by this prospect.

      Are games supposed to be some sort of emotionless intellectual exercise?

      I think the best games would be intellectual and emotional. There's not reason the two should be mutually exclusive. But I've frequently been told by friends that I over-analyze movies/books/shows/songs, so I may like more intellectual content than most people.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    23. Re:politics, not polemics by alphamugwump · · Score: 1

      Wow. You are a real voice of sanity.

      That sort of thing is my number one pet peeve: fiction that tries to regurgitate some kind of political propaganda. I see that everywhere; there's a ton of fantasy that has an extremely obvious environmentalist agenda. Now, I am not opposed to environmentalism. Furthermore, that sort of thing would probably have been fresh and innovative anout 40 years ago. It's just, at this point, /everybody/ has already heard about the fricken trees, and you don't accomplish anything by covering it in a veneer of elves and dragons.

      Or, take the other example: Left Behind. I started reading it because I thought it was going to be a dark apocalyptic sci-fi. Instead, they spend the entire series rehashing fundamentalist christian dogma. They cranked out twelve bloody books of the crap, when the same thing can be (and has been) said in a 5 minute speech.

      The problem, of course, happens when writers or game designers substitute regurgitated, redundant groupthink for plot. Controversy is okay. Something that presents a new, in-depth argument for something is also okay. Asking open-ended questions to make the player actually think is the best, in my opinion. But if it's the same crap I hear everyday on the news, there's a serious lack of thought going into that storyline.

      If you aren't going to write your own story, there are much better sources to rip off. You could rip off a true story. You could rip off a folk tale. You could rip off shakespeare; people think it's a good thing. You could rip off famous philosophers; just take a famous paradox, come up with an analogy, and work through the analysis. That's what sci-fi is. But if you rip off BBC/FOX/whatever, you have a serious problem thinking for yourself.

    24. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Do you actually watch 24? If so - what is the "answer" the show is trying to force on us?

      I'm not saying I think it's great intellectual entertainment, but I get the impression that the majority of people who are up in arms about it haven't watched it. Most of the claims of anti-Muslim bias or what have you are simply not reflected in the actual show. Consider that the current villains include an evil currupt corporate (white) American, a Soviet-era general, and (yes) a Muslim terrorist. You've also got overzealous hawks in the administration trying to assassinate the president in order to get the internment camp agenda operational. Meanwhile on the other side you have a Muslim ex-terrorist, a Muslim leader of a non-profit, a president who acts like the opposite of George Bush and, of course, Jack Bauer.

      Just wondering whether you're one of those people who think it's anti-Islamic. If anything, it's pedantically anti-anti-Islamic.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    25. Re:politics, not polemics by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      Yeah, not many games make explicit connections to real politics (though there is one set in Venezuela that's ruffling feathers), but there is the assumption in most real-world military simulations that the other side is evil while our side is innocent. The absence of any moral justification for these pretend wars against real countries is worse than any polemic. If the ideology or agenda of some games is overt (and possibly even offensive), then maybe more people might start questioning games (and politics) in general. And it might even make them more fun.

      Besides, it's not like the existence of talk radio makes it any harder to find real political discussion, so why would it be the same with games?

      Funny you mention Ender's Game, my first post originally referenced Card's Empire as an example of a real polemic that I still found enjoyable. Stupid beliefs and strawman characters don't necessarily result in boring plot and dumb dialog.

    26. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      How did you manage to get "24 is anti-Islamic" from my post?

      It's just been in the news since the new series started. It wasn't in your post, I was assuming. So my mistake.

      How did you manage to get "24 is anti-Islamic" from my post?

      I don't even think that message is so obvious. Americans are up to some shady shenanigans in that show. But I don't think this is the kind of political message people had in mind. I mean really - does a game need to argue that terrorism is bad? That's like saying that a game which depicts murder as bad is pushing a philosophical agenda. Technically I suppose you could say that, but realistically everyone thinks that already and it's non-controversial.

      I think what people are talking about is a video game that would push some specific agenda that's not universally accepted. Like, say, the idea that all capitalism is always evil and results in nothing but death and destruction as evil fat-cat tycoons grind the faces of poor innocent minorities into the dirt.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    27. Re:politics, not polemics by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      The absence of any moral justification for these pretend wars against real countries is worse than any polemic.

      I just can't get worked up about this line of thought. It's just a repeating cycle. Star Trek: Klingons are bad. Movies 1 - 5. No, wait, really we just need to get to know them and understand they are people too. Movie 6. Crap, no we're out of villains. OK, now Romulans are bad. You get the picture.

      Not every game can be an accurate reflection of the fact that all people are unique and individual snow flakes. I think it's generally better for a game to show that, but imagine what playing Call of Duty would be like if you had to watch the bio of every single German soldier you shot. It would actually probably be a very artsy and cool experiment, but not exactly a hoot to play through? I think it's not a great idea to weigh down all video games with a bunch of moral baggage and expect them all to accurately depict life. They are games. I think that they should either just have fun and not worry to much about philosophy, or actually deal with it insightfully. Either is OK with me. The only bad option is dealing with it badly.

      Funny you mention Ender's Game, my first post originally referenced Card's Empire as an example of a real polemic that I still found enjoyable. Stupid beliefs and strawman characters don't necessarily result in boring plot and dumb dialog.

      Which book is Empire? I thought I had read almost all of his books, but if it's a new one I haven't been keeping up. In any case, I guess we just have different tastes in books. Card gets extremely annoying when he gets preachy. He decided to turn the last Bean novel (Shadow of the Hegemon, I think? Or something like that) into a treatise about why homosexuality is bad and abortion is bad. Now I happen to believe both those things, more or less, but I still found his preachiness to detract horribly from his story telling.

      Heinlein is another great example of this. Starting with Starship Troopers he began to insert increasing amounts of political dogma and philosophy into his books. When he handled it directly - as in Stranger in a Strange Land or The Moon is Harsh Mistress - it was great. When it became a side-track from the story (as in most of his other later novels) it started to really detract. I think Heinlein, like Card, managed to write decent books in spite of their preachiness, not because of it.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    28. Re:politics, not polemics by mink · · Score: 1

      There was an official patch that removed Starforce. I know that means you have to let it in once before you can banish it.

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
  4. One could just as well ask... by Firefly1 · · Score: 1

    ..."is there room for storyline in gaming?"
    And the answer is 'yes'. I seem to recall the KOTOR titles, as well as Deus Ex and System Shock 2, being regularly held up as examples of engaging storytelling as well as good gameplay.

    --
    - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
    1. Re:One could just as well ask... by toleraen · · Score: 1

      I'd add Max Payne into that list too. Definitely one of better "storyline in gaming" shooters I've played.

    2. Re:One could just as well ask... by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 1

      Weird, because I seem to recall KOTOR 2 being held up as an example of a game who had its story brutually riped apart so it could be shipped earlier.

    3. Re:One could just as well ask... by Firefly1 · · Score: 1

      Ah, thanks for clearing up that bit about KOTOR 2. Would I be correct in assuming that the first was not subject to such 'surgery'?

      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
  5. There's this game that I like... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    With apologies to South Park...

    "There's the girl that I like....
    Now it appears that she likes another guy...
    it must be because he's political and stuff....
    I bet I can be political too!"

  6. Of course there is. by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is there room for politics in gaming, or do you just want to shoot stuff?

    Is there room for politics in art, or do you just want to listen/watch/taste/sense it?

    Of course there is place for politics in gaming: It's not as if there -haven't- been any 'political' games around yet, some might be more upfront about it (random example: www.powerpolitics.us), while others still give out a political message, but are very clever in hiding it (see americasarmy.com).

    For myself, I don't mind if a game has 'politics' in it: But I think that the game from the article is a lame attempt at trying to intermix all the popular elements of today, together with some hot mix of controversial sauce. Trying to pass it off as anything more than that, is ridicilous.

    1. Re:Of course there is. by witte · · Score: 1

      (Sorry, I feel a bit pedantic today.)

      A lot, if not most, of the FPS games I played over the past 10+ years had the player running around as an American/Allied soldier, shooting and blowing up Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Iraqi, ... you name it.
      How is that not political?

      Imagine a German game producer making a FPS game where you get to kill American soldiers. I'm pretty sure it would never be sold in the States because of political sensitivities :)

    2. Re:Of course there is. by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I feel a bit pedantic today.

      Nah, you're right: They're definitely political too, and I've always been amazed at how much slack other (violent) games received, while the WWII games seem to be spared, as "hey, you are fighting nazis, so what's wrong with that?".

      The reason why I mentioned Americas Army was because of them excluding the possibility of using the 'bad' side: As it's only multiplayer, two teams are opposing eachother but both, from their POV, are the Americans... One could of course reason that I shouldn't be expecting more from a game named "AMERICAS Army", but together with the overall propaganda of the game, it has been a game that has bothered me for some time.

    3. Re:Of course there is. by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      The reason why I mentioned Americas Army was because of them excluding the possibility of using the 'bad' side: As it's only multiplayer, two teams are opposing eachother but both, from their POV, are the Americans... One could of course reason that I shouldn't be expecting more from a game named "AMERICAS Army", but together with the overall propaganda of the game, it has been a game that has bothered me for some time.

      The public release of "America's Army" was primarily as a recruitment tool, or at least an experiment of one. This postion forced certain design decisions. All of this was announced when the game was launched.

      If, for example, Honda funded, developed, and gave away a new driving game that explored novel gameplay avenues and was a moderate success, would you be bothered because you could only drive Hondas in the game, or would you just accept the game for what it was: a glossy brochure with good replay value?

    4. Re:Of course there is. by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 1

      Hey, as said: I accept it (America's Army) for what it is, but that doesn't have to make me ignore my feelings towards those aspects mentioned.

      I've played several games build on advertising a certain product/service and I don't get bothered by it at all: As you mentioned, I am aware it's meant as a commercial, but if gameplay rocks it doesn't really matter what assets they are putting in.

      I just think that AA is taking it one step further and is using the medium as an(excellent) propaganda tool: The thought that some people actually get affected by this is imo a lot worse than buying a Coke after playing a coke-sponsored game.

      Off topic-ish, but interested: Where can I find the Honda game you're speaking of? And did you do this for an advertising agency, or did you step up to Honda and asked them for some funding?
      The reason I'm asking is that I am quite far in the development of a (GPL-ed) game, and I am currently looking at the several options available (in-game advertising being one of them).

    5. Re:Of course there is. by witte · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. I think I misunderstood your original post :-)
      My mistake !

      I will read the parent post with more care before replying.
      I will read the parent post with more care before replying.
      I will read the parent post with more care before replying.
      etc.

      Cheers

  7. Shoot stuff. Sorry. by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is there room for politics in gaming, or do you just want to shoot stuff?


    Shoot stuff. Sorry.

    In real life, I'm a left-leaning SOB, but I completely enjoy smacking people over the head with a hammer and jacking their ambulances in GTA. I also enjoy squashing other cultures under my heel in any number of RTS games and generally being a dick in MMORPGs. Do you know why? Of course you do: it's not real.

    Is this new game really political? I'm not sure. Remember in Warcraft III you had all these random "stories" behind why battle 1 is humans vs. humans, battle 2 is humans vs. elves, etc.? I think what this guy's done is similar to that rather than being political.

    If you want political treatment, write a sim where you're an arms contractor and you need to pay off your local congresspeople in a legal or at least hidden way. Or, write a sim where you get send to a base in Cuba with no hope for escape, rescue or legal representation. There's plenty of dirt to really dig into without making up crap about spec.ops. vs. spec.ops.
  8. Re:Lame by adamstew · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some people like interactive stories. I for one, am a HUGE fan of the entire Myst series because of that. Myst certainly was not an action game, nor did it necessarily require any reflexes, timing, etc. (okay, there were one or two puzzles in the last few games that required you to finish something before a time expired).

    People play games for different reasons. The online multiplayer is nice, because AI just can't measure up to real people...but I buy and play games for their stories.

  9. At the scene of a crash... by MBCook · · Score: 1

    Guy 1: What a crash.

    Guy 2: Hey! You got political viewpoints in my video game!

    Guy 1: You got video games in my political viewpoint!

    Both: Eeew.

    Really, who cares? Area 51 was about shooting aliens. So the new one is shooting rogue agents. It doesn't matter if it's that or terrorists or what. How many people do you REALLY think this game is going to make stop and think "Wow, our government's actions could have serious implications in the future." It's a simple shoot-em-up. It's not going to happen.

    Get over yourself. A shoot-em-up is not a genre that makes getting a viewpoint across easy or natural (like an RPG or even FPS might).

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  10. Flashback by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 3, Funny

    I for one was hugely offended and disgusted when the mayor told me "My dear Mr. Firefly, we are at war with the SPANISH."

    --
    Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
  11. FPS gamers can care less by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 1

    Release the game with state-of-the-art graphics, a few unique gameplay elements, and quality online/multiplayer elements and you will be a success.

    99% of the people purchasing this game will not pay attention to (or care about) the politics.

  12. Oh my..! by dlhm · · Score: 1

    Has Slashdot really got to the point where we use that "Wonderfully reliable for accuracy" news network MTV? Give me a break. There doesn't need to be politics in video games unless it has an Adult only ESRB rating. We don't want to be indoctrinating our children with a "reason" to kill. I think killing just for killing is good enough.

    --
    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
  13. Sounds pretty one-sided by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Yes, even though he claims there are some Republicans around the office, there's no doubt where his sympathies lay.

    However, I'd hope that this isn't just a one-sided treatment. It sounds interesting, certainly more thoughtful than killing 1000 more ghosts/vampires/terrorists/bad guys of whatever sort.

    His comment "'Wait, what if they are terrorists we helped create? What if the people supporting us in our fight against the terrorists aren't completely clean either? What if they're sending us after them now, but what if 10 years ago it was safe for them to create them?' ... So what we have in 'BlackSite' is a delta-force assassination squad hunting down and killing members of an Army training program."

    What one can't see - and what then allows the most ridiculous Monday-morning quarterbacking - what WOULD have happened, if that decision hadn't been made 10 years ago? That's what I'd like to see.

    In real life, it's rarely 'good choices' vs 'bad choices' - that's the sort of Manichaean superficial crap that all games are built on. Sometimes it's bad choice vs worse choice, or bad choice now vs bad choice later. In their new game, the first time someone cries "why did they create this unit in the first place?" do you get a flashback of what life would have been like if they hadn't been created? It's conceivable that the unhappy current situation - BlackSite hunting down members of this Army-created team - is still the BEST possible outcome.

    How about giving the player other moral/ethical dilemmas - they have to decide if they are going to shoot through a crowd of children to kill the insane guy with an automatic weapon approaching the playground? And then have it turn out that the guy has no more ammunition, so the local police, politicians, and newspeople can second guess the player until he dies?

    --
    -Styopa
  14. So... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 2, Funny

    So on American soil, Americans are fighting Americans, basically."

    Ah. A Civil War sim.

  15. Area 52.... by aapold · · Score: 1

    the logical sequel, has become yet another game industry conquered by Blizzard...

    --
    "Waste not one watt!" - CZ
  16. Lame question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Even if I just want to shoot stuff I can still acknowledge there is room for politics in gaming.

    My own personal opinion is that games are too large of a time commitment to support politics. Sure, if the message is easily ignored and does not affect enjoyment of the game, no problem. But games are longer than movies by a factor of 15x or more, so... If the game is the equivalent of Fahrenheit 9/11, forget it. I'll sit for two hours watching a political movie in order to challenge or reaffirm my own views, but a 30+hour game? No thanks, even if it agrees with my politics.

    So, basically, yes, there is room for politics in gaming. But, just like movies, the politics can have an affect on your demographic and sales. Unlike with movies, I don't fall into the 'political' demographic for games and I seriously doubt most other people do either.

  17. Everything Old IS new again! by Bieeanda · · Score: 1
    Politics and gaming? No, this is more like politics and politics-- the near-forgotten scandals of Reagan's Iran-Contra shenanigans, mated to more recent rumblings about class-based conflicts and paranoid militias. Really, the only thing that this guy's done is replace the usual lousy hodge-podge of space-alien myths with slightly more down-to-earth conspiracy theories.

    You're shooting at American soldiers. Ooh, edgy. It's not like we haven't been gunning virtual marines down since Half-Life.

  18. So we have Ex-Mexican soldiers, so what. by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

    "aliens become poor American citizens put in harm's way."

    --
    God spoke to me.
  19. Re:Shoot stuff. Sorry. by kabocox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you want political treatment, write a sim where you're an arms contractor and you need to pay off your local congresspeople in a legal or at least hidden way. Or, write a sim where you get send to a base in Cuba with no hope for escape, rescue or legal representation. There's plenty of dirt to really dig into without making up crap about spec.ops. vs. spec.ops.

    Nah, by writing the spec.ops. vs. spec.ops. the general public gets paranoid and thinks of that movie Enemy of the State. When they look for that, they don't find it. All the issues that you state, make a boring game so they won't play that or blow those issues off as they know that the government only engages in spec.ops. vs. spec.ops warfare with itself and that's obviously not going on so everything is perfectly normal except for those few crazies. Sort of makies you think of MegaTokyo and how Largo views all the scifi stuff going on in the background while to Piro and almost every other major character its just a normal day. We don't see the government acting badly out in public so those that scream at the top of their lungs that some thing is wrong that Miho is the zombie queen are looked at like absolutely crazy people and ignored.

    I think what would make a great game would be to start off with something like SimCity or the Sims as a backdrop and everything is normal except for your team of either magic users, super heroes, scifi hightech good guys, or covert gov. looking out for the bad guys. You raid random Sim's home for evidence that they are an "evil" doer however you define "evil" be it drinking, drugs, alien contacts, terrorist contacts, unlicensed magical use, being a general villian, or just being someone our team doesn't like today. I guess some one could make Police Sate the game and see how people like playing as Nazis or KGB agents. Nah, that's predictable. Police State the game with legit terror, disease, alien, and anti-government targets to search out and destory. Don't ask why that guy was a terrorist or bad guy, you are just in the swat team and taking his whole family out and take it as a given that he was a bad guy.

  20. Re:Shoot stuff. Sorry. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shoot stuff. Sorry.

    Does that mean you're opposed to political content in videogames when it doesn't interfere with shooting stuff?

    In real life, I'm a left-leaning SOB, but I completely enjoy smacking people over the head with a hammer and jacking their ambulances in GTA. I also enjoy squashing other cultures under my heel in any number of RTS games and generally being a dick in MMORPGs. Do you know why? Of course you do: it's not real.

    Yeah, werd to that. Like just about everyone else's my girlfriend hates GTA. Says she's worried about me.

    But of course you realize that the GTA games are themselves political statements, right? And I'm not talking about the freedom of speech issue of getting the game out in the first place. I'm talking about the world you can see that (for example) Carl lives in in GTA:SA. Now THAT is a political statement...

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  21. 'nuff said? by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Is there room for politics in gaming, or do you just want to shoot stuff?
    America's Army
    'nuff said?

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  22. I disagree by paranode · · Score: 1

    I would love a game where I can hunt down this elusive Haliburton Weather Machine and put a stop to it!

  23. I'm fine with politics. by MaXimillion · · Score: 1

    Shooting stuff is fun. If I get to shoot americans, that's even better :p

  24. wasn't all of this done with "destroy all humans"? by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 2, Informative

    in the first one you are an alien in the 50's fighting traveling across america fighting police, soldiers, and "men in black" agents called majestic. the game is full of sarcasm about how cold war americans in the "golden age" were all secretly gay, or on drugs, or worse.

    in the second one you are an alien in the 60's fighting the KGB for world domination in america, britain, japan, and russia. the game is full of jokes about cultural stereotypes.

    in both games, the governments hate you and want to destroy you, but harvest your technology and stuff to use against you and their enemies.

    --
    sarcasm:
    -noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  25. Re:Still mindless by Grant_Watson · · Score: 1

    ...he adds in left-wing conspiracy theories...

    Actually, he seems to be making the game an allegory of sorts. Allegories can work well in games; American McGee's Alice did an amazing job, although the ending was pretty heavy handed, alas.

  26. "what if they are terrorists we helped create?" by Mc_Anthony · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Hasn't Michael Moore been saying that all along? Honestly, this guys sounds like another leftist moonbat to me.

  27. As an admitted Hideo Kojima fanboy... :P by Speck'sBacon · · Score: 1

    I have to say that political or socially conscious messages in video games aren't new. The whole Metal Gear Solid mythos (and Kojima's other games like Zone of the Enders) deal with everything from the threat of nuclear proliferation, to censorship, to the futility and tragedy of war, to how the allies of today can become the enemies of tomorrow and vice versa. Some of the themes are a bit too blatant for my tastes (though that may be a function of the translation from Japanese to Western culture), but I still think they added depth to the story, and help make MGS a classic. To hear the description of this story idea, I think the writer may be barking up the wrong tree if he's going to take such a blatant "blame America for terrorism" tack. It's one thing to express your opinion in a story, but I tend to prefer art that's left up to interpretation (which I think the MGS games did, even as they made clear Kojima's perspective).

  28. So did Deus Ex by WiPEOUT · · Score: 1

    There's obviously a market for games with political elements. Fallout and Deus Ex are both widely hailed as amongst the best games ever released for the PC. Both depicted an artistic vision of how life could be if certain negative aspects of modern culture are not challenged, and it was the storyline that engrossed it's players.

  29. That's great but by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 1

    this plot line has been used so many times it's got stretch marks.

    --
    Clear, Dark Skies
  30. Politics has been in games since at least 1990 by turing_m · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ultima 6 is a prime example. That fictional universe was probably a prime reason in me becoming pro-multicultural at the time. Looking back on it, the propaganda aspects are obvious.

    All these Gargoyles have invaded Britannia. You start off killing them, encouraged by your king, Lord British. Of course, part way through you discover that they are only coming through to your world because their world is falling into a void and they need you to rectify it. And they aren't evil, they in fact mean you no harm and are a very cultured and learned race. As an added bonus, you will pick up a gargoyle character who has better stats than anyone in the entire game. And of course, the only way you can finish the game is to help them out. (I'm somewhat surprised that the game didn't have you lobby Lord British to give amnesty for undocumented Gargoyles or go on a quest to get the local bards to put on a Live Aid show.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_6

    As the audience in games has grown larger and recognition has dawned on people that you can buy tens to hundreds of hours of influence with a game compared to 2 hours with a movie, it's no accident that anyone with the desire to manipulate public opinion and the means to create video games decides who is cast as villain or hero in games, what the quests shall be, and what assumptions will be challenged by the protagonist in the game.

    Propaganda in art is as old as art itself. I'm not sure why this is news.

    --
    If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
  31. all one big excuse... by daddyrief · · Score: 1

    "... aliens become poor American citizens put in harm's way."

    Is it just me or does this sound like an elaborate excuse?
    (Let's skip making aliens and just release another run-of-the-mill fps...humans killing humans, but we'll call it 'Area 51!!!'

    --
    "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson
  32. Given the timing of Fallout's release. by GodInHell · · Score: 1

    Their choice was America, or some other nation yet to be named, (post soviet oppoisition problem) which fallout was not set in. (remember, the original was set in the American west.)

    -GiH

  33. Left Wing? Conspiracy? by GodInHell · · Score: 1

    How is this a "left-wing" conspiracy theory?

    This sounds more like the ruby ridge / OK city "the government is out to get my guns and kill my family" conspiracy.. you know.. a far right wing nut-job invention.

    Left wing conspiracy theories tend to be about crazy economic domination theories and Bush family members.

    -GiH

  34. "X-Files" should sue by 80+85+83+83+89+33 · · Score: 1

    and politics in gaming? anyone heard of metal gear solid? sons of liberty?

    oh yeah, this guy is breaking new ground. Not.

    --
    i disable sigs
  35. Just Politics? by Lawn+Jocke · · Score: 1

    Previous posts have mentioned that a political spin on a game can make it a propaganda of sorts, and hence, damages the integrity of gaming. But, moral and ethical choices have appeared in games (KOTOR was used as an example) and those too are propaganda. Just because a game says something doesn't make it evil. Someone said earlier that when the game "asks a question" it retains its integrity, but when it tries to "force an answer," it destroys what it set out to do. If games take a more "applicable to life" stance content-wise with the intent of making people think and confront issues, as opposed to making people take their side, then there is a great potential for success. Its a fine line, yes, but games, like all other forms of media, can be used to open peoples eyes. If gamemakers set out with this purpose, they have my approval.

    --
    Maybe if this sig is witty or clever enough, someone will love me...
  36. Re:This is Area 51 people.... by mink · · Score: 1

    The last one made, has good multiplayer modes, and is not a railshooter/guncon game like the older arcade ones. Check it out, you might not like it still, but it is not ust a new version of the Aerosmith game.

    --
    Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.