30 Days With Ubuntu Linux

jkwdoc writes "Vexed by Vista's hardware requirements and product activation issues, many have claimed on various boards that they plan to 'switch to Linux.' [H] Consumer spent 30 days using nothing but Ubuntu Linux to find out if this is truly a viable alternative for the consumer. Linux has indeed become much more than the 'Programmer's OS.'"

Comments

Misguided or simply lazy

[suso]

From the article: But what about power users, such as the typical audience of HardOCP - those who know how to build their own computers, but not compile their own programs?

IMHO, anyone who wants all the control of building your own computer, reads a website which has overclocking in the name and thinks Linux/FreeBSD/Open Source is either misguided about the benifits of Linux or is just lazy. Putting your own computer together these days with all the options, choices to make, etc. is getting harder than it was 10 years ago. Meanwhile, Linux has been getting easier. So I don't see where the challenge is for these people.

It is nice to see that non-Linux people are continuing to give Linux a try. Most things in the world only get one chance and then its over.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[MontyApollo]

It seems to me that often people who build their own computers and worry about overclocking are doing so to get the most bang for their buck for gaming purposes. This would not be necessarily be a target audience for Linux.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Building a computer today is easier than 10 years ago? O RLY?

Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts or undocumented jumpers. Perhaps you don't recall 'Plug and Pray'. To say nothing of cases wherein their manufacturers believed human hands were made of some steely, unbreakable substance and by no means needed protection from sharp metal.

I can slap a computer today very nearly by accident in comparison to the annoying foibles of yester-year-- saying it has become more difficult simply smacks of an unwillingness to become familiar with new technologies. That doesn't really play well in this community, sir.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[faloi]

So I don't see where the challenge is for these people.

The challenge is in the purpose. AFAIK, people don't just got into the guts of their system to crank everything up for the joy of theoretical numbers to throw around. Generally, they're after the biggest, baddest box for a reason. A big reason for a lot of people is gaming, after all...it's what consumes the most horsepower. And gaming is currently where Linux falls short. I think if more games (that people want to play) were available with native Linux support, more people would be willing to switch.

Distro's like Ubuntu are great for non-technical users to have a solution to hop on the Internet, check email, do word processing, that sort of thing. In short, all the stuff that a non-technical user is likely to do with a computer anyway.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[MBGMorden]

Even if you just want a dirt cheap PC you can still usually build one for cheaper than what Dell does. The main thing you get with Dell is: support, and a single stop for your warranty. Most people who read Slashdot are without need of the very basic support Dell can offer (good for the clueless, but overall their support guys know less than most technophiles). The warranty is nice, but even building your own you usually have a warranty on all the components, you just have to do more work (contacting individual manufacturers) in order to use the warranty if needed.

Personally though, while the upfront cost is nice, I found it beneficial a LONG time ago to stick with homebuilt PC's, simply because they all use fairly standard equipment. My first x86-based computer was a Packard Bell 486, and it pained me as that thing got old that there was very, very little I could do with it to keep it updated (everything was proprietary). So my next PC was one of those "screw driver" shop ones from a local store where they built them with everything off the shelf. That was circa 1996 or so. Since then, I've never actually bought an entirely new PC. Don't get me wrong, my current computer is absolutely zero components in common with that system (and I've been through countless iterations of unique configurations), but all of that has been done through an upgrade here, an upgrade there, etc. With almost any major manufacturer's systems, you eventually just have to dump it and start again.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[__aaclcg7560]

It's more harder to put a CPU fan on top of the CPU with all the extra clips, screws and whatever else. Back in the Pentium days, switching a CPU was no problem and I did that frequently. These days I switch out the CPU once in a blue moon since removing and putting the fan back on can be a bitch.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[cide1]

IRQ conflicts were 15 years ago. 10 years ago was about the easiest it has ever been. Buy an ATX power supply and case, any of the hundreds of Intel BX boards, whatever the fastest Slot 1 you could afford was, a hard drive, a cd drive, (it was all the same bus then) and if you really had mad cash maybe a Geforce 1 or Voodoo3. All cards were PCI w. AGP video. Everything was PC100 memory, and it was pretty cheap for the time.

Now, you have 5 differant processor sockets, 8 differant chipsets, 3 differant memories all in multiple speeds, differant power supply sockets, PCIx, PCI, and AGP, etc... Plus, it is harder to tell which parts are the fastest or best value now that everyone says their chip all their chips are equivallent to 4 GHz. The chance of being able to upgrade to current equipment is much less than it used to be. Replacing a processor now almost always means memory, power supply, motherboard, and heat sink.

All of this is hard enough building a windows machine, but now couple on getting Linux compatibility, and I say no thanks. I have built dozens of machines for family and friends, but I no longer do. I tell them to go to Dell, buy the cheapest thing, upgrade the memory. I don't have support or warranty issues. Im not returning parts that are wrong, etc...

My best solution to this problem was that when my super tricked out brand new system got stolen, I bought a mac, and it was one of my best computing moves. I paid a rediculous amount, but 3 years later, I haven't felt the need to upgrade it once.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Dog-Cow]

"(for example, the Command and Conquer 3 demo is completely playable but crashes after several minutes)."

I think it's this definition of "completely playable" that keeps people away from Linux.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[BJH]

Putting your own computer together these days with all the options, choices to make, etc. is getting harder than it was 10 years ago.

I call bullshit on that one (and yes, I was putting together my own PCs ten years ago).

Then: A dozen different video card manufacturers, twice that many chipsets, equal variety of drivers.
Now: Two major manufacturers, two unified drivers.

Then: IDE=slow. Master? Slave? Cable? WTF is this?
Now: SATA - plug and go.

Then: Set up your modem to connect to your ISP and hope you don't get any incoming calls. Firewall? What's that?
Now: ADSL. Wireless routers. Built-in firewalls.

Then: Scanner? SCSI (and don't forget your terminators). Printer? Parallel. Video in? Forget it.
Now: USB and Firewire.

Then: Steel case weighing 20kg, built out of razor blades.
Now: Complete kit with rounded internal edges, fans in the box, you name it.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[CPNABEND]

I have been building my own rigs for more than ten years, and I have KUBUNTU up on one of the boxes on my LAN. I have a stumbling block trying to understand the LINUX file system. It's like I download something like Firefox - and can't find where it went. I have been searching for a book that could walk me through everything, sort of like a translation of M$-speak to LINUX-speak. Then, I would be more than happy to kiss Windoze g'Bye.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[jcgf]

Even if you just want a dirt cheap PC you can still usually build one for cheaper than what Dell does.

I'd like to see that.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[TheQuantumShift]

"I can slap a computer today very nearly by accident"

I tend to do it on purpose and then tell people it fell down the stairs...

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Sobrique]

I'd agree. I have Windows on my PC at home, because my favourite game of the day is pretty much certain to be 'fully compatible' with Windows.

Whilst a _few_ make it onto Linux, it's a minority, and generally it's a lot flakier.

Which is kind of a chicken and egg scenario - No game developer in their right mind does 'Linux Only', and only a few do 'Linux as well', simply because of relative market sizes.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[vtcodger]

***Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts or undocumented jumpers.***

Was there some other kind of jumper?

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[nostrad]

I find your comment a bit funny. Recently I put together my neighbours computer and removed the fan by accident(!). It was a Core 2 Duo boxed with a fan. Putting the fan in place couldn't be simpler.

I didn't have to make sure it was aligned correctly, there was no socket parts that would raise the copper and disable it from cooling the CPU. There wasn't any huge force involved fastening the CPU, just align it with the 4 holes on the motherboard and push the locks until they clicked.

Removing it is even simpler, grab a screwdriver and rotate the locks 90 degrees (follow the arrows) and they pop right up.
I would say computers recently got a lot easier to put together.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[slashbob22]

Wanted:
Old PCs or parts to make a "dirt cheap" PC.

Send to: 123 Fake St.
(sender must pay shipping)

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[nofx911]

Below is a PC for $332 - including Microsoft Vista. The price would probably be around $280 if I used multiple companies for the component parts. All of this is, is from NewEgg.

  Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
1 Rosewill R103A Black SGCC Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 350W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: R103A
Item #: N82E16811147010

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $30.99 -$5.00 Instant $25.99
1 Foxconn K8S755A-6ELRS Socket 754 SiS 755 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #: K8S755A-6ELRS
Item #: N82E16813186068

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $36.99 $36.99
1 MSI MX4000-T64 DDR AGP 2X/4X Low Profile Video Card - Retail
Model #: MX4000-T64
Item #: N82E16814127128

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $23.99 $23.99
1 AMD Sempron 64 2800+ Palermo 1.6GHz Socket 754 Processor Model SDA2800AIO3BX - OEM
Model #: SDA2800AIO3BX
Item #: N82E16819104244

Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy

In Stock
        $27.00 $27.00
1 WINTEC AMPO 512MB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Desktop Memory Model 35145588-P - Retail
Model #: 35145588-P
Item #: N82E16820161615

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $33.99 $33.99
1 Western Digital Caviar WD800BB 80GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: WD800BB
Item #: N82E16822144102

Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy

In Stock
        $40.99 $40.99
1 LITE-ON Combo Black IDE Model LH-52C1P-187 - Retail
Model #: LH-52C1P-187
Item #: N82E16827106058

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $23.99 $23.99
1 Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
Model #: 66I-00715
Item #: N82E16832116202

Return Policy: Software Return Policy

In Stock
        $119.99 $119.99
Subtotal: $332.93

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[jalefkowit]

OK, I'll try.

You know how Windows has "My Documents", right? And that's the default place for downloaded files to go?

The analogous concept in Linux is the "home directory". It's called that because each user account on the system has one, and that user has complete power to do whatever they want there, unlike most of the system which requires admin privileges to make changes.

The home directories, logically enough, are all stored in the /home branch of the filesystem. So if your user account name was "cpnabend", your home directory is probably /home/cpnabend

The home directory is where the system is going to store lots of stuff -- configuration files for applications, downloaded files, you can even install applications in there (if you're the only user who needs them). In this way the "home directory" concept is more expansive than the "My Documents" concept, which is only for document files (your configs are in the Registry, your apps are in Program Files). It's also why the home directory is more useful than My Documents -- if you regularly backup your home directory, you will have nearly everything you need to bring your Linux box back from the dead in case of emergency.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[timonvo]

That config is seriously outdated.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[MBGMorden]

I'll bite. Below is the cheapest system I can find on Dell's site, with all options at their lowest levels:
AMD Sempron(TM) 3400+
Genuine Windows Vista(TM) Home Basic
512MB Single Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 1DIMM
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
16X DVD-ROM Drive
No Monitor
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Cost: $389 ($359 plus $30 shipping)

Below is a quicker perusal of Newegg. Note that I could slightly downgrade some of these specs (such as going with a Sempron 3000 instead of 3400 to save money, an option which isn't available from Dell), and I could also shop around and likely come out cheaper than Newegg, but it's a good place to through lots of stuff together:

AMD Sempron 64 3400+ Manila 1.8GHz Socket AM2 Processor Model SDA3400CNBOX - Retail $69.99
Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Basic for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM $94.99
Patriot 512MB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200) Desktop Memory Model PSD251253381H $33.99
Western Digital Caviar WD800BB 80GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive - OEM $40.99
LG Beige E-IDE/ATAPI DVD-ROM Drive Model 8164BI - Retail $17.99
PC CHIPS A33G V1.0 Socket AM2 SiS 761 GX Micro ATX AMD Motherboard (w/ integrated video/network/sound) - Retail $46.99
POWMAX CP808PL-1 Beige Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 450W Power Supply - Retail $20.99
DCT Factory KBJ-006UB Black USB Standard Keyboard - Retail $3.99
Rosewill RM800P Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse - OEM $3.49

Total: $362 ($334 plus $32 shipping)

Savings over $27 on building yourself. Not huge, but it is a savings, and at these costs that's darned close to 10%.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[nostriluu]

You shouldn't be installing things like Firefox manually. Any decent distribution (Ubuntu/Debian, Fedora, etc) have much better application management than Windows (or the Mac). They handle finding, installing, and updating mainstream apps for you.

If you really want to know where an application is, and are using the shell (command line), use the "which" command.

$ which firefox /usr/bin/firefox

If you want the basics, as another poster said, everything that is yours is in your home directory, which means when switching computers you just copy that directory and you're done. Otherwise, you might want to scan a document on Linux file system layout standards, but for typical desktop uses you probably don't need to.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[elgatozorbas]

Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts

Wasn't this conflict solved when Sddm was kicked out?

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[eln]

Meanwhile, Dell has a system that uses a SATA drive rather than your outdated IDE drive, a faster processor, a DVD-ROM (which you did not include), faster memory, and a 1 year warranty for only 20 dollars more.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /dimen_essential?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I build my own systems for the same reasons noted above: for high end stuff, I can build a nicer box for less money than Dell can. Plus, the cases you buy off the shelf tend to be easier to work with than Dell's, which seem designed specifically to discourage tinkering. For the low end, though, might as well just stick with Dell.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[avalys]

That's wonderful. Now consider the cost of your time in building the computer, installing Windows, downloading and installing all the drivers from the various manufacturers, and all that.

Never mind the fact that some of the components you ordered are OEM, meaning they have no warranty - and that even for the components that have a warranty, you will likely have to deal with dueling technical support departments. Random crashes while playing games? Video card manufacturer says its your motherboard, motherboard manufacturer says its your video card. Have fun with that.

The rest of us will pay the extra $27, spend ten minutes unpacked our fully-assembled, fully-warranted (from a single source) computers, and get on with our lives.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[MBGMorden]

The advantages you mention were covered in my original post. I specifically said that you get the better warranty and support when buying from Dell, but that you could get off cheaper if all you wanted was a cheap computer. You challenge that statement, and when proved wrong, you try to retort with points that I originally made.

My original point still remains exactly the same despite your completely irrelevant comments: building your own system *can* be done cheaper than Dell (even on the low end - the price savings increases as you approach the high end), but if you want the extra warranty or support, you can buy from them.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

>>That config is seriously outdated.

Who gives a fuck, it's new and it's cheap. Cheaper with XP or Linux instead of Vista, which I spent a good 3 hours setting up for someone yesterday (on a Dell) and was underimpressed. It sounds cliche, but there really are a lot of people who just want to use their computer to check email, surf the Internet and watch youtube videos. Call his suggested configuration outdated if you will, but it is adequate for a large group of users. I would also suggest that this configuration may actually boot up faster and run just as quickly as the average Dell because it won't come preinstalled without the megabytes of crap software that Dell likes to include with thier OEM and run at boot time. Ironically enough, looking through the invoice, they listed and charged $.01 per peice of crap software preinstalled. I can only guess it's for accounting/inventory purposes that they would do such a thing. I would hope that if they are going to charge for crap software that I don't want, even if it is a penny, I should have the opportunity to opt out when ordering.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[HUADPE]

And yet it is highly similar to a $400 Dell. Same processor (AMD Sempron) same HD space. No, it's not a great computer. It's a cheap computer.

http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c= ca&CS=CADHS1&l=en&oc=C521SB_R_E

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Ashbory]

Yes, the incorrectly documented jumper.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

The stock fan is not a problem. See how easy it is with a Zalman or Arctic cooler.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[d3ac0n]

That config is seriously outdated.

Um...

That's the POINT of a "Dirt Cheap" PC setup. You want dirt cheap, you get second, third, or 4th generation old parts. Frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with using older generation parts, provided you don't expect them to perform like cutting edge stuff. Honestly, any machine with at least a 1Ghz Processor, 1 GIG RAM, and a 2 generation old video card should be able to run XP or Ubuntu with no trouble at all. Vista, No.

But then isn't that the POINT of this article anyway? To get off the expensive upgrade treadmill by moving to an OS that doesn't waste your CPU and RAM by being full of bloatware and unnecessary services and processes? (I won't even go into the benefits from a computing experience free of virus and spyware worries.)

Methinks that you missed the spirit of the OP's post.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[teh_chrizzle]

5 differant processor sockets, 8 differant chipsets, 3 differant memories...

FIVE GOLD RINGS!

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[nostriluu]

Mac doesn't manage dependencies at all. So everything is a monolithic glob, or you have to manually install some other required piece of software.

Mac doesn't manage system wide updates at all. For every app, you have to hope it has a "check for update" option, somewhere. With Linux package managers, it's across the system, for all applications. Mac will never do this, because Apple vs Mac developers is a dysfunctional relationship, Apple wants to make it awkward so they can unfairly compete when they feel like it.

Finally, Mac apps and updates are often lazy, and request the system is restarted. Linux packages rarely do this.

I don't know what your Linux package management experiences are, but I've rarely had any issues installing, updating and removing apps, although granted on systems like Debian they are not the most up to date, which rarely matters over the advantages of everything being managed.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[teh_chrizzle]

AFAIK, people don't just got into the guts of their system to crank everything up for the joy of theoretical numbers to throw around.

talk to a hardcore seti addict sometime. they will drop $1500 on a new liquid cooled rig to push them up to the next user class. the guys in the top 20 are even worse. i had a friend who once misappropriated a whole software test lab over a 4 day weekend to see a boost in seti rank.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[adachan]

Since when do OEM products have no warranty? Check the item descriptions.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[nofx911]

As I said in the original post - all of this was a quick search. The drive listed above is CDR / DVD Rom. Its specs are:
LITE-ON Black 16X DVD-ROM 52X CD-R 32X CD-RW 52X CD-ROM 2MB Cache IDE Combo

Secondly, if you wanted a Serial ATA drive you could have one:
Maxtor DiamondMax 20 STM380211AS 80GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
            Cache: 2MB
            Features: Robust design for system reliability Great value RoHS compliant
            Form Factor: 3.5"
            Labor: 3 years limited
            Parts: 3 years limited
        * Model #: STM380211AS
        * Item #: N82E16822144095
        * Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy
        * In Stock
        * 3 Business Day Shipping $5.94
        * Move item to Wish ListMove To Wish List
        * $42.99

Its just $2 more expensive (And, yes, the above listed motherboard has 4 serial ATA slots).

As I stated this was just a quick search. If I were actually trying I could build a much, much, cheaper box.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never tried to get warranty service from Dell, it seems. The one time I did was also the one time I got into dueling tech support (with Microsoft!). It wasn't even a personal purchase: it was at work! I recommended against Dell at the time, but Policy overrode me.

Also, every OEM product I've bought has come with a warranty.

I hate to throw accusations around lightly, but you sound almost like a Dell FUD lackey.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[zizzo]

I'd rather spend a few hours installing windows than spend weeks uninstalling the Dell shovelware. I'd be pretty surprised if you bought a Dell and jumped for joy at the "fun" extras.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[uimedic]

First, if your building your own computer, chances are good you're not running to tech support every time something goes wrong. So the tech support issue is a red-herring for the home-built crowd.

Second, it's not like you just turn on the Dell and run. Dells come pre-loaded with a bunch of crap that consumes too many of the limited resources available to a low-end PC from the first boot. To remedy this takes a lot of time. I daresay as much time as it takes to throw together the parts for a basic PC.

Third, you are seriously misinformed about the OEM = no warranty issue. Your assertion is just not true. I've personally received excellent warranty support on several OEM components purchased through Newegg. I've heard that that Windows is unsupported by Microsoft when purchased with an OEM license, but I don't know the facts on that and I've never personally called MS technical support.

Finally, notice that $95 of this $362 machine from Newegg is a license for an OEM (unsupported) version of MS Windows Vista HOME BASIC?! With Dell, that cost is bundled in automatically. You can't remove it a la carte. You can only get it refunded by prostrating yourself in public while chanting "please, please, please." Building your own, you just don't buy windows and you save 26% on the purchase price (making it a full $122 less than the Dell).

If Ubuntu is a strong competitor to Windows (and I've found it that), there is substantial savings to be had for those interested in building their own computer to run linux vs. buying from Dell or any other mainstream manufacturer to run linux. Which is how this whole discussion got started anyway.

Respectfully,

uimedic

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[VGPowerlord]

Windows has home directories. In fact, My Documents is a subdirectory of it.

X:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents is the real location of My Documents (replace X: with the system drive and username with the user's login name).

The thing is, most people don't know about it because new users on Windows 2000/XP on non-Windows/Netware domain systems have administrative privileges by default.

Fun fact: User home directories (AKA User profiles) can be stored on a central server in a Windows domain. Only the Local Settings part of the user information is not stored in a roaming profiles system.

If you're a limited user on Windows, you have permission to write to your home directory, the All Users\My Documents directory, and the HKEY_CURRENT_USER part of the registry by default. That's it.

Application developers should code around this, but they haven't been. They are just finding out now how to write apps that respect Windows' security model due to Vista's annoying UAC dialogs, despite the same security model being around since Windows NT 3.1 came out over a decade ago.

In case you're wondering, Windows makes these paths available to programs through environment variables. To be exact, they have USERPROFILE, APPDATA (to store program settings, usually %USERPROFILE%\Application Data ), and ALLUSERSPROFILE (to read common settings, although most of this area is only writable by administrators).

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[CoolMoDee]

Luckly though, implementing updating into your application is only a few clicks and an rss feed away with Sparkle. Sparkle makes it so a developer has no excuses to not to add updating into their application - literally, zero lines of code added. Though - it would be nice to be able to hook into Software Update - just for the uniformity as a user - however I do like the current method (Sparkle enhanced) very much as well.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Junior J. Junior III]

Yes, but now busses explode randomly on a daily basis ;)

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Laurence0]

You say that (not needing a floppy drive), and I thought the same when I built my new computer a couple of years ago... Turns out though that Windows XP required drivers for the SATA controller from a floppy during the install process, so I ended up having to pull a hard drive out of an old computer, just to install Windows. In fact, the disk with the Windows drivers on it is still in my drive (poking out), despite me having been using Ubuntu full time for about 6 months now. So, whilst I agree that floppy drives are almost never required, it can come and bite you!

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[wolrahnaes]

Here's the problem with that system: Not future proof

If I buy even the cheapest Dell, I'll be getting either an AM2-socket AMD or a LGA775-socket Intel. I'll also be getting PCI Express. There likely won't be a video card in the PCIe slot, but it'll be there.

With your configuration, I get a Socket 754 AMD chip and AGP, neither of which have any future at all. No new parts are coming out for either or even have for quite a while now.

Now, let's try this the right way.

For reference, here's a Dell Dimension C521, currently priced at $359 + $29.99 shipping + $26.26 Ohio Sales Tax = $415.25
AMD Sempron 3400+
Windows Vista Home Basic
512MB Single Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 1DIMM
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
16X DVD-ROM Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
56k Modem

My system, built from Newegg
Powmax CP808PL-1 case with 450W PSU - $20.99
Sempron 3400+ - $69.99
DFI C51PV-M2/G Infinity - $93.99
--Provides GeForce 6150 Integrated Graphics and 7.1 Channel Audio
Western Digital WD800JD 80GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive - $42.99
Patriot 512MB DDR2-533 - $33.99
LG 8164BI 16X DVD-ROM - $17.99
Rosewill RK-101 Black Keyboard - $3.99
Kingwin KWI-123 USB Optical Mouse w/ Wheel - $3.99
Encore ENF656-ESW-AGPR 56K Fax Modem - $4.99
Windows Vista Home Basic OEM - $95

Total Price - $388.91 + $32.82 shipping = $415.73

That's a 48 cent difference in favor of the Dell. Also remember with the Dell it's already installed, tested, and expected to work right out of the box. With the homebrew machine, you're talking at least 20 minutes assembly if you're really good and then about 1/2 hour installing Windows (the new Vista installer really is a lot faster). Figure for another 1/2 hour downloading/installing the nVidia graphics and chipset drivers after that before you're ready to use it. Unlike some, I'll give that time up though, because going and decrapifying a new Dell, particularly the cheap ones, takes about as long.

In the end, you come out 48 cents poorer, lacking a single source of support if something isn't working right, and with no OS support at all (OEM editions of Windows are to be supported by the system builder, i.e. YOU). I love building my own machines as much as the next person (I haven't owned an OEM desktop in 10 years), but given the choice I'll take the Dell.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[wolrahnaes]

It's worth noting, I guess, that for those not intending on buying a new OS along with their new hardware (transferring from an older machine, using Linux, etc) the pendulum obviously swings way back the other direction.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

[Rocketship Underpant]

"Mac doesn't manage dependencies at all. So everything is a monolithic glob..."

Which is perfectly fine. Cocoa and Quartz APIs do most of the functions that programs share in common, and in this era of cheap hard disk space, I'd rather have self-contained globs than fiddle with correctly installing foo-gnome-lib-24.35.23.b-x86.lib which might conflict with foo-gnome-lib-24.35.22.b-x86.lib or whatever.

"or you have to manually install some other required piece of software."

I've never had one piece of software depend on another one like that.

"Mac doesn't manage system wide updates at all. For every app, you have to hope it has a 'check for update' option, somewhere. "

Amazingly, most of my apps work great out of the box, and I'm not in dire need of updates to make basic stuff like copy and paste work. That said, many or most Macs apps do check for updates automatically, and following a confirmation prompt will upgrade themselves without you lifting a finger.

"Finally, Mac apps and updates are often lazy, and request the system is restarted."

Um, that *never* happens unless it's a major Apple app and involves a bug fix to an OS X framework.

"I don't know what your Linux package management experiences are, but I've rarely had any issues installing, updating and removing apps,"

I gave Mandrake a shot not too long ago when it was still one of the major distros. I managed to successfully install fewer than 50% of the apps I tried installing, and while I'm no Linux guru, I'm better than the typical computer user. I have *never* failed to install a Mac app. I just download it and drag it to my Applications folder; it couldn't possibly be easier.

retromercial

[Stanistani]

We've quietly replaced his copy of Windows XP with Folger's Coffee Crystals. Let's see if he notices any difference.

Re:retromercial

[truthsearch]

/me sadly raises hand ...then realizes he's sitting in front of a screen and no one can actually see the hand raised ...then sadly lowers the hand...

Re:retromercial

[Stanistani]

It's my small contribution to the dialogue between the prematurely old and the young.

From the wikipedia entry:
Another famous advertising campaign from the early 1980s took the viewer inside various gourmet restaurants as a voice-over whispered, "We are here at (insert name of four-star restaurant), where we've secretly replaced the fine coffee they usually serve with Folgers Crystals. Let's see if anyone can tell the difference!" Of course, no one ever did.

I remember similar stuff said about XP

[0racle]

Look what happened there. People that might be interested in Linux or OS X will try Linux or OS X. People who aren't, won't. In the end, very little will change.

Re:I remember similar stuff said about XP

[Erwos]

I first seriously got into Linux when I found out about XP's activation system back in 2001 or so. Until then, I had used it for home server applications (like a web server for PHP testing, and a cheap NAT/firewall router) and a development environment for college programming courses, but the news of the crazy activation scheme drove me to actually using it as my primary OS, with the intention of phasing out Windows 2000 at some point.

I still use Linux (Fedora Core 6) as my primary OS, and I'm pretty happy with it. It does all of the day to day productivity tasks that I need, and I like the flexibility it gives me in terms of technical capabilities - if I want to, SSH into work write a program in C++, test a web page, try out a new language, and so forth, I can do it with minimal hassle. I don't really see switching off of Linux as my own personal desktop OS.

However, I still have a Windows partition, and it's not going to go away any time soon. The Linux gaming scene is still pretty much dead (no offense meant to Michael Simms and the folks at LGP!), for one thing, and my console isn't a complete replacement for that yet. Outlook is still (unfortunately) the best local email client when it comes to remote-synchronized calendaring, email, and address books, especially when you toss smartphones and such into the mix, at least until I move to Google Apps. And when it comes to my own needs, Windows Media Center provides a better fit than MythTV. I'm waiting for 30 people to chime in that MythTV is everything to everyone - but that's just not true. :(

So, much as I hate to say it, Vista's probably in my future. But so is Linux. :)

Re:I remember similar stuff said about XP

[Coryoth]

I think it is worth noting that similar stuff was said about XP before it's release. Once XP was out it became pretty clear that the uptake was going to be very fast. Here we have slow uptake of Vista and comments made about switching after the release. It isn't entirely wishful thinking this time - though wishful thinking clearly come in to it to some extent.

The other point is that Linux has come a long was since Windows XP was released while Windows has... well, just look at Vista. The difference between Ubuntu 7.04 and Vista will be very small in comparison to the difference between Redhat 7.2 and Windows XP, which, in turn, was small compared to the difference between Redhat 5.2 and Windows 98. This is the real concern for MS - that while Linux might have been behind in desktop user friendliness it has been improving much faster than Windows.

Re:I remember similar stuff said about XP

[ukemike]

I remember similar stuff said about XP. Look what happened there. People that might be interested in Linux or OS X will try Linux or OS X. People who aren't, won't. In the end, very little will change. Not entirely true. Windows XP was actually eagerly anticipated by most of the windows using world. The possibility of a stable OS that would work with existing applications, games, and be compatible with the stuff we use at work, was exciting. It's easy to forget the dark years of Win9x (especially for me since I held out using DOS/Win3.1 until 1 year before XP came out) but they were terrible with BSODs every day. I remember how a computer could not be left on overnight and be expected to run well in the morning. I remember that even if you setup password protected logins you could bypass all of that by clicking 'cancel' at the login prompt. Windows XP was a HUGE improvement. It was massively adopted upon release.

Now Vista on the other hand has elicited nothing but hand wringing for several years. For what I can tell it has little good to offer except eye candy. On the downside the OS has DRM in it's DNA, it has a ridiculous security sceme. It fails to run lots of current software. It claims but fails to be more secure (can't use 3rd party anti-virus). It has extreme hardware requirements. I built my last new PC within months of the release of XP. I will not build a PC for Vista. I will not buy a PC with Vista. I do not look forward to the day that I must start using Vista at work.

The big question is this: Linux or Apple? I have an older PC in the house running Ubuntu. It's great, and it also sucks. It has tons of free software. It can't legally play DVDs. It is supremely stable and runs really fast on very antiquated hardware. Getting it to do something out of the ordinary (like using the midi keyboard I got for my son) requires navigating a byzantine maze of forums, scripts, command lines. It fit nicely with my philosophy. You can build your own. On the other hand, Apples "just work." They cost more. You don't get to build your own. Since I don't have as much time as I used to I'll probably buy an Apple for 90% of my use, and I might have a 2nd PC with linux for doing stuff that requires high end software that I don't care to buy.

That being said, am I a typical user? Hardly. I've been on the internet since 1988. I built my last computer myself. I know enough to know how little I know. Lots of people think I'm some sort of computer guru. I realize that I am just barely competent. I would never recommend linux to my Dad or a computer-clueless friend. I tell them, "Go buy a Mac. They just work." When they get their Apple, they are happy. I'd rather USE a computer than ADMINISTER one.

Re:On the other hand...

[multipartmixed]

Are the configuration files in either a text format, or a well documented format?
Does have a normal UNIX shell environment?

Then it's got all the control you need.

That depends ...

[khasim]

... sorry, problem ain't on my end.

That depends upon what the problem is finally determined to be.

Since there is no way anyone else can diagnose your problem, you are free to make any claims you want to about it.

Meanwhile, your experience seems to run counter to the majority. I have installed Ubuntu on many machines without a single problem. Ubuntu does have problems installing at times, but mostly with SATA drives on specific chipsets in specific configurations.

Commendable but...

[Sobrique]

The place where Linux really needs to start to shine is the workplace. People run PCs at home, mostly because they run PCs at work. There's exceptions, but this is definitely the majority.

What's really needed is some 'professional' IT organisation to sell a definitive Linux solution for a whole workplace. And support it. And point out that actually it a) costs less to support and b) is way cheaper.

Personally, I think it's viable, and I can see IBM gradually moving that way, and perhaps Sun too. But they'll have a lot of work to do to overcome the 'No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft' attitude that's ingrained into most of the workplaces in the world. (I'm still somewhat stunned at the complete lack of understanding of the mere existance of Unix that I see in my current, IT company).

*shrug* I look forward to a day when every business desktop runs Linux. I think there's a lot of people who's talents are wasted being support monkeys for cranky windows bogosity. But at the same time, I can't see it happening, simply because it'll put a lot of people out of work.

Re:Commendable but...

[Stamen]

I'm old enough to remember a time when you would get laughed at if you suggested Windows would be used in the office, this was around the Windows 3.0 days. Novell ruled the smaller server space, and Word Perfect and DOS were king.

Windows started to penetrate the desktop first with Windows 3.1 (IIRC) and Office. Then Novell made some serious mistakes, like making it hard for Windows desktops to connect to Novell servers (actually Microsoft did this, but Novell could of done much better), and not supporting TCP/IP and going with their IPX protocol instead. Because of those two things, as well as others, it started to become easier to use Windows Server or Windows for Workgroups (peer to peer serving) instead of Novell server, even though it wasn't even close in regards to performance, ease of administration, or reliability (you could do some very cool things with Novell NetWare).

Linux is starting the other way, with the servers, and then going to the desktop. So it's a different challenge. But one thing, IMO, that Linux needs to do is develop some features (not just copying Windows or OS X) that aren't available anywhere else that makes people demand it on the desktop. LInux does, of course, have the very real benefit of not having many issues with viruses and malware, but it needs more than that. If you take a look at the history lesson above, perhaps Linux Desktop could leverage the large install base of Linux on the server to solve integration issues that you just can't on Windows, making it so that the IT people demand Linux on the desktop, as we use to demand Windows on the server (before we got smart and started demanding Linux on the server :-) ).

Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[parc]

I switched my 80 year-old grandmother to Ubuntu 6 months ago. I won't pretend there were no problems, but they all revolved around user interface. Specifically, things didn't EXACTLY match Outlook/Internet Explorer's interface. Once I explained that and she used it for about 2 weeks, she has no problems whatsoever.

She DOESN'T do any DVD editing. She DOES use digital photography (in that I send her pictures of her great grandson and she views them). She's even managed to solve minor problems on her own. She writes documents, receives documents (both word and excel), and has had no issues to date that could not be solved in 10 minutes on the phone.

Her only major complaint? It's not the user interface. It's not the multifunction printer/copier/scanner. It's not the funky colors. It's not the email. It's that she can't make the computer wit more than 2 hours before hibernating.

Perhaps these "reviews" of "typical users" should evealuate what a real "typical user" actually is.

Re:Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[metlin]

One of my biggest problems with Linux is - believe it or not - stability.

For one, getting X to work at a good resolution was hard (I've a widescreen notebook). In fact, until a recent upgrade, I could only get it to work at a much lower resolution. Secondly, getting the WiFi to work wasn't a cakewalk, either. And during the whole messing around with install process, I had to restart the system at least a few times (Linux, meet Windows - one and the same). Now, I've also had problems with the GUI in getting things done - sure, I finally end up resorting to opening a terminal and doing what I wanted, which defeats the purpose, I think. I won't even go into the number of times I've had to restart X. And oh, I've had hell trying to get files on a USB thumb drive -- for whatever reason, the files are simply not accessible from a Windows box. Tried every damn thing, and finally booted into Windows and did what I wanted. And I still can't get my printer and scanner to play nicely with Linux. Half the time, the box ends going bonkers. I finally upgraded to Edgy Eft and things seemed a little better, but not much better (I did get Beryl working though!).

And I won't even go into such things as DVD burners and the like - half the time, I just use Windows than go through all the trouble of getting something to work.

Linux is great, but it still is not as usable nor intuitive as Windows is for a lot of things (spare me the "you're used to Windows" crap - I've been using *nix for at least 10 years). Its support for other things (e.g. Indic language support, accessibility etc.) is also nowhere near Windows.

And the thing is, as Linux becomes more usable, its stability is going down the drain.

There is also the problem with drivers - yes, I am aware that folks don't always make everything with Linux in mind or do not release the appropriate drivers (although many are starting to). But this is a chicken and egg problem - the reason they are not is because Linux isn't picking up, and the reason Linux is not picking up is because it is hell to install. And the reason it is hell to install is because you have to go hunting for drivers, appropriate fixes etc.

Secondly, the amount of free (as in beer) apps in Linux maybe more than in Windows, but they are nowhere as stable or usable. For instance, compare Paint .NET with, say, GIMP - the former while low on features is infinitely more usable (and in my experience, stable) than GIMP. The fact that the MS Paint replacement is faster and more stable than the (supposed) Photoshop replacement is a little spooky.

Personally, I think that despite what Slashdotters may believe, Linux has at least another 5-10 years to catch up to Windows in terms of accessibility, usability and stability.

The day I can get my box up and working without having to go through the trouble of hunting around the net and spending a few weeks in fixing it will be the day Linux will be comparable to Windows on the desktop.

Linux is only free if your time is not money - and for some of us, our time is money.

Re:Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you're a fucking moron.

Re:Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[BJH]

And oh, treating someone complaining about the problems like an idiot is a great way to get things done.

Treating someone trying to help you like your personal support bitch is also a great way to get things done.

Why is "complain to the manufacturers" such a bad answer? It is the ONLY way that device drivers in Linux will improve in anything other than incremental fashion.

And BTW, if by saying "I've given talks on writing Linux device drivers", you actually mean "I've ripped off other people's work to make it look like I know something about writing Linux device drivers", then perhaps you shouldn't bring it up.

Re:Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[BJH]

Whether you've written Linux device drivers, met people who have written them, or sent spam to a guy who knew somebody who met Linus, is not relevant.

From what little information you saw fit to provide, most of your issues (Broadcom wireless, Intel wireless, NVidia/ATI video card?) seem to be with binary drivers.
In that case, talking to the manufacturer is the ONLY way you are going to get a stable system. Some people may be able to provide ad-hoc workarounds, but only the manufacturer can solve the cause.

(I also found it interesting that you gave the level of Indic language support as proof of the superiority of Windows, when it's apparent from the site you linked to that Windows' out-of-the-box Indic support is fairly sucky.)

Re:Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

[mackyrae]

Yeah, pretty much everyone I do tech support for is like that too. I think my boyfriend's the only person I know with a PDA (Crackberry) that syncs to the computer. I think he's the only person I know with a PDA, and he's far from an average user. He's a hacker. Everyone else just sends email using webmail or types things in Word (or Writer in my family's case) not realizing Notepad/Wordpad (or Gedit) exists or uses AIM (or Gaim) or browses the web on Firefox. They do understand single/double click, but I know my mom is afraid of right-click. In the interest of getting her to stop fearing her computer, I set her up with no sudo rights so she doesn't have to worry about breaking it. I mean, I'm in college. I look around my dorm, I see AIM, a web browser, Word, and iTunes. That's it. That's what average users use. There's also a few guys who play video games, but they're very outnumbered, and most are console-gamers anyway.

It's the Internet!

[frieko]

I 'switched' to Linux several times in the past, only to get frustrated and switch back. But Kubuntu has stuck. I'm Windows free for a year now. The reason it stuck this time is simple - with Firefox, Flash 9, Acrobat Reader, and w32codecs, the WWW is now as good on Linux as it is on Windows. I'm surprised more people don't make a bigger deal about this. For me it's huge.

Re:It's the Internet!

[Atuin the Great]

I'm also converted to Kununtu.
Some time ago, I've also installed Ubuntu on my parents' computer. It used to run WindowsNT, but it was getting really sluggish. And having to solve problems every other weekend was no fun either. Once Ubuntu and all the software they needed (ooffice, skype, mail, photo manager, ...) were installed, I sat them down for a 20min introduction and they're using it ever since.

More recently, I bought a new notebook (HP Pavilion dv9000), and installed Kubuntu 6.10 next to the installed Windows XP media center.
Now, I hardly boot in Windows anymore, especially after I had installed Beryl (simple apt-get) which looks and acts great.
However, using it on a relatively new laptop, it still needs some special attention if you want to use all features.

In my case, these were:
- automatically connecting to wireless networks to WPA-protected networks. after browsing some forums, I installed wpa_supplicant + edited some conf-files
- built-in speakers/microphone do not work out of the box. First had to find out which was included (Conexant) and then downloaded latest ALSA drivers + a specific patch which I found on the ALSA forum. After compilation/installation all specific buttons and the speakers worked. unfortunately, the built-in microphone is still not working.
- built-in webcam. This is a Ricoh webcam and is not UVC-compliant (although the company itself claims it is). After finding and mailing with some people who had similar hardware, I got in touch with someone who was willing to write a new usb-driver specific for this camera. After a lot of back-and-forth (he did development, I did the testing), the webcam now works.
Other then these problems, everything else worked beautifully.

Over the last few years, I've really become a big Ubuntu-fan and when I buy a new desktop machine, it will run Ubuntu as well.
I feel it has grown substantially over the last year, and is already a good candidate OS for a lot of people. What's needed at this point is even more hardware support. Hopefully, the initiative of the Linux kernel community will give a boost in this area.

Ubuntu

[vwstickman]

I tend to agree with the mass consensus, Ubuntu has gone a long way to bringing home the Linux desktop but still needs work in some areas. One such area is laptop support. When I installed Ubuntu my standby was flaky and hibernate hung on restart forcing a hardboot. These are key areas that do not work properly and there are many other little bugs like that. As I said it has come a long way but still does not work 100% out of the box.

OS changing is too complicated for most people

[fantomas]

"Frankly, I'm perplexed that anyone would pass on the opportunity to try out a free (as in beer) OS. "

Changing OS is too complicated for most people, and there's not enough payback. If it works, why break it? If you can send email, and look at the web, and write a letter, and it took a lot of pain to get that far, why change the system you use and have to learn all over again, maybe losing your old files? That's how most people see it.

Changing OS may cost nothing financially, but for many people, their time isn't free. The time required to install the new software, get up to speed using the new tools and assuring yourself that you can access your old files and all your other hardware (printer, digital camera, internet connection, etc) is either lost business time (=costs money) or lost personal time (=time away from more pleasant use of leisure time). It's only "free" if you were going to spend that time messing around with a computer anyway. For many people that's not the case.

My quest to "switch"

[fed0up]

I have been meaning to try out Linux for years, but never ventured. Thanks to reading /. (can't remember how long; should be 3+ years) I finally decided to take the plunge two weeks ago.

I chose openSUSE, simply because it got some Press(Read: Novell).

I have XP on Toshiba Laptop and wanted to have a dual boot on it.

I used GParted for partition, though openSUSE came with partition manager. GParted was very easy and "Windows like"

The installation went smooth and openSUSE recognized all hardware. I chose GNome as the desktop, simply because Firefox came with it.

I played around and customized to my liking. Opened the Terminal and played with the vi editor. It seems like vi skills are etched in memory(I used to program in C years ago).

I hit the road block with wireless network. The installer recognized Intel 3945 wireless card, but would not connect.

Doing a Google search(are you happy now Google lawyers?), I found I am not alone. I tried ALL solutions offered on various forums.

1. Using Intel's Linux driver - This required a kernel version of 2.6.8 or greater. openSUSE 10.2's kernel is 2.6.16 or something. It is only sensible to use the native driver right? I hit the wall again and again.

2. ndiswrapper - Grudgingly I tried this as a last resort. Same result.

Time spent: Few weekday evenings and a weekend (to the dismay of spouse)

I absolutely love the shiny OS. Unfortunately I can not use it without an wireless internet connection.

So it sits there unused.(I changed the default OS to Windows in GRUB).

I switched to Debian desktop in 2005

[br00tus]

Ubuntu is derived from Debian. I had qualms about making my main desktop Linux for various reasons, but in 2005 an attempt to have my Windows do wireless screwed up the whole system, and then I needed to use that OEM Windows CD crap, which not only mucked with my C drive but erased my whole D drive for some reason. I got tired of it and switched to Debian.

I thought I would miss some things in Windows but I didn't. The thing I thought I would miss most was Microsoft Word, but Abiword did fine. I was always concerned I would have to modify my resume and send it out in a nice Word format that Linux wouldn't have, but that was never a problem. I never missed Windows for anything. They talk about Windows having better hardware support, but my (then) 802.11b wireless was a hell of a lot easier to install on my system then Linux. I also liked the ability to open a shell and just be able to do stuff - do an awk or sort or whatever on a file, have multiple windows and so forth. It had all the nice user brain-dead stuff of Windows, but I could drop to a shell and actually do stuff, instead of getting some MS-DOS prompt crap. It's much better nowadays than my old days when I had a Linux kernel version 1 running fvwm as one of my work desktops (the other desktop at that time was a Sun IPX running SunOS 4.1.3_U1).

My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[Programmer_In_Traini]

I'm a long time windows user, from the DOS days and I've always remained on the windows side of things mainly because at work its all we use. I never saw any point of switching of linux at home knowing that knowledge would not serve me at work.

I'd usually spend efforts trying to improve on things that would help me at work.

Anyway, now im starting a web hosting and web design (very) small company. I'm not really impressed by the direction MS is taking nor by the fees its charging. Vista smells like a truckload of overhead shit that i have zero interest in even trying out. The 2003 line of servers from MS is just too expensive just to avoid mentionning i hate the notion of online activation/tracking.

I've installed Ubuntu and other distros of linux at the time and while I've always got stuck with the file structure and various command lines to learn, i feel this is something i could get the hang of over time.

But what brings me back everytime to windows are my own limitations regarding programming. At work, we do ASP and ASP.net. Not c#, vb.net. I can read c# but i don't really program with it.

I have no interest in learning php, ruby or other languages despite all their advantages. Because at work that's not what we use and I'd rather re-use my skills rather than split into a new branch just because im having something on the side.

so, my question is, is there any (easy) way i could be running the .net framework on ubuntu ? no virtual machine if possible, no emulation, just run .net framework on ubuntu ?

I know its pretty contracdictory but i dont want to install overhead on my server just for the benefit of running .net, I don't think its possible otherwise but that's why im asking to people who knows more about this.

So, is it possible ?

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[pembo13]

When one invests their time in platform dependant skills, one has to live with the fact they will be forever tied to that platform. I'm pretty sure that what you want is not yet legally possible.

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[Doctor Crumb]

It depends on what you mean by ".NET framework". If you mean the *Actual* framework, as in the thing that takes your c# code and runs it, then yes, you can easily use Mono (which is a competing implementation) in ubuntu.

If, however, you mean Visual Studio, then there may be issues. There are several nice IDEs in linux (Eclipse, KDevelop, etc), but none are exactly the same as Visual Studio, and I don't know how well any of them deal with .NET.

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[skiman1979]

Check out the Mono Project. Mono is a .NET implementation on Linux. You will need to make some source code changes to get it to work in Mono, but a lot of the code should work out of the box. I used Mono to port an in-house application we use here at the office into Mono. Our aplication is in C#, but I believe mono will also do ASP.NET. Someone correct me if I'm wrong? I only had to do some minor code changes to get a majority of our .NET application to work under Gentoo and Ubuntu. Some features had to be disabled, like ActiveX of course. I don't believe ActiveX is supported.

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[mdielmann]

Because at work that's not what we use and I'd rather re-use my skills rather than split into a new branch just because im having something on the side. No offense, but I've never understood this statement. A spreadsheet's a spreadsheet, whether it be 1-2-3, Excel, or whatever. How long do you expect it to take to be able to pick up the basics of it? After that, learn what you need to get things done. I went from MS Works to a shareware clone of 1-2-3 for DOS. Guess what? Most of it is the same, any serious stuff takes some different commands, but they all do pretty much the same thing.

I feel the same way about word processors, GUIs, and programming languages. If a language can be made to work with the CLR, it follows a fixed set of rules. Yep, that includes Java, VB, C, C++. You've already learned conditions, branching, looping, etc. So, now you know what needs to be done, you know the structures to use, take the next step and try to make it in another language. Worry about the unique features after you've done the translation - it will come a lot faster.

I'm not knocking your choices. I live in a MS world, work in a MS shop, and have been working (and playing) in VB from 6 to current. I've also had the mixed pleasure of using far too many versions of Access. But I've also played around in Java, javascript, and a couple others. I've also done serious work in SQL stored procedures and a custom programming language that looks painfully similar to Delphi. What I do in each looks pretty similar, just a different syntax in different environments (and maybe some unique features available in one vs. the other).

Remember, that first step is going to be the hardest. But once you get comfortable with a useful language for the tasks you have at hand (and I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about web programming), it shouldn't take too long to start learning the unique features that make that language extra useful. And as a bonus, you won't be tied to MS and their somewhat arbitrary changes.

Also, you may want to check out the Mono project. This may be in the direction you're looking for.

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

[Procyon101]

My comment has nothing to do with your solution, but...

As a fellow programmer, I have to put in a plug for using your time at home to learn other languages you don't use at work. Picking a new language and then forcing yourself to do a project in it will seriously make you a better programmer in your primary language, and will make your life much easier at work. When you dive into a language that is substantially different than your original you learn completely new ways to approach problems, many of which you can add to your mental toolbox back in your original language.

Now, as an ASP developer, going home and learning PHP would be a bit of a waste of time as they are pretty much the same, and you wouldn't get much from your pain. But going home and building something in C#, prolog, ruby, python, scheme, haskell, etc... would work miracles in expanding your brain because they are so very different. You may still do all your primary development in ASP, but you will find that you are 10 times the programmer in ASP having learned a couple of completely different ways of approaching programming.

Re:On the other hand...

[Teresita]

Yeah, I never understood the appeal of Ubuntu and am diehard Fedora. The sudo business was very odd to me. You can run a command as root by using "sudo", but you enter your *own password? What gives?

Sudo gives you root access for the purpose immediately at hand, and then takes you back to your account. It lets you get in, get out, and not have your fanny hanging out there on the net in admin mode for someone to burn you.

It isn't about trying, it is about sticking around

[Anonymous Coward]

There has never really been a problem with people willing to give Linux a honest chance. I've found that I could even get my mother to try with "Slackware 96".

The problem is having people that do try out Linux stick around. Most go back to what is comfortable and they are used to after the novelty has wore off. There seems to be so much fluff about those that try out Linux and not about about those that stick with Linux. There hasn't really ever been an issue with those trying out Linux.

This is not entirely realistic..

[phazer]

None of the two computers have an ATI video card. Allegedly the ATI drivers sometimes even work, but I have yet to see this for myself.

The author has a HP Laserjet standing around? Nice. Good luck with a Canon "software" printer or other GDI printers though.

One or the other would've made the report much more interesting to me.

Re:This is not entirely realistic..

[boyko.at.netqos]

(I'm the author)

I would have loved to test ATI, unfortunately, neither of the computers had ATI cards - that's just how it worked out.

I do have an HP Laserjet 1020 - it's a small little number, a personal-sized laser printer, NOT a full-sized behemoth. It's what I had to test with. And if you read the article, you'll notice I did have quite a few problems with it (but eventually it worked.)

And I will let you know that the HP Laserjet 1020 does not work in Vista, at all.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[Just Some Guy]

4) Commands to diagnose the problem won't run.

Oh, and:

5) If you act like a spoiled jerk on a community-driven forum, stamp your little feet, and absolutely refuse to try any of their troubleshooting ideas or provide them with the information they repeatedly ask for, then they probably won't help you.

Yeah, I read the thread where you "tried" to get help. Your take on the episode doesn't have a lot to do with what you actually posted at the time.

Moderators, before you mark me down, actually read the Slashdot thread he linked to. I'm not the one who initially pointed out his tantrums and complete refusal to help fix his own problem. I can't believe that he uses that thread as supporting evidence of why Ubuntu is broken.

The problems with Linux.

[LWATCDR]

Well the list is typical I am afraid.
1. No 64 bit Flash. Or the lack of support in the X64 version of Firefox for 32 bit plug ins.
2. You can not watch DVDs you buy at the store with out breaking the law... Thank you US government...
3. Drivers specifically the fact that it is IMPOSIBLE for a manufacture to put a binary linux driver on a disk and stick in the box with his product.

The first part the Linux community really can not do a lot about. I guess that the distros could ship the 32 bit version of Firefox as the default until Adobe catches up.

The second issue is a legal fiction and can only be fixed by lawyers... And that is never a good state of affairs.

The third is my least favorite problem because it could at least be helped by the kernel developers. If they would just put in a stable binary driver interface then it would be possible to put drivers an a CD. Currently they don't want to put one in because they feel it would encourage closed source drivers. They will use excuses about performance but the simple truth is it is all about politics.
This article was a great example. The new network adapter didn't have a driver in distro. In this case the driver hadn't made it to the kernel yet. Even if the manufacture had produced a FOSS driver there would be no way to put it on the CD. There would be no way of knowing if it would work with the users kernel. They would have put a bunch of source code on the disk and maybe a script to compile it... If the user has a development system installed and the right headerfiles...
I hate technical problems caused by politics.

Re:On the other hand...

[mackyrae]

It also means that if you're an admin and there are many users, you can avoid giving out the root password. You can set it so only specific people can use sudo, and you can monitor everything they do while in sudo mode. So, if something goes wrong, you know which person did it rather than a general "someone with the root password did it" and every guy's pointing to the guy next to him going "he did it!"

Re:Get the mono

[denis-The-menace]

(Not the caulking...)

http://www.mono-project.com/

A very good review in general

[crush]

I was impressed by the author's attention to detail and clear specification of the tested systems and the steps involved in using them.

One useful correction would be that programs are just as easy to install on .rpm-based systems as they are on .deb-based systems. The default tool on Fedora Core 6 is called YUM and it does all the dependency resolving necessary. There are even simpler front ends to it such as Pup and Pirut. Package installation, deinstallation, upgrade and update are just as easy as they are with Aptitude.

The problems that the author experiences with 64-bit Flash are unfortunately a result of there being insufficient pressure from GNU/Linux consumers on vendors to supply Free software. A similar problem is experience by many Ubuntu users that rely on the non-Free drivers produced by Nvidia for their graphics cards, or the various non-free binary blobs used for some dodgy wireless hardware. This will continue to be a problem as long as distributions like Ubuntu facilitate the manufacturers of this hardware in evading one of the central principles of Free Software. The manufacturers can't do a good enough job of staying current with the kernel and so GNU/Linux will always be a second class citizen as long as we accept this. Fortunately there are manufacturers, such as Intel that provide Free software for their 3D graphics cards and their wireless chipsets and so it's worth choosing their components when building a new system. (I used to buy ATI stuff because the Free 3d drivers were better than the Free Nvidia ones, but apparently the nouveau project is opening up the list of working Free Nvidia cards. I'll probably be giving Nvidia and ATI both a miss in favour of Intel though).

Unfortunately Mark Shuttleworth is a short-term thinker who is pushing many of the Ubuntu developers into including binary, closed blobs that work until you update your system. This is the tired old "I'm a pragmatist" line which has been releiving the pressure on manufacturers to open their drivers and on users to choose non-closed hardware while purchasing new systems. It's anything but pragmatic and leads to the sort of frustrations seen in the article.

Re:ya but

[Anonymous Coward]

Sim City 3000 (happy penguin pay)
Tremulous: http://tremulous.net/ (Repositories free)
Legends: http://legendsthegame.net/ (download free)
Uplink: http://www.uplink.co.uk/
Darwinia: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/
Defcon: http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/

Don't assume they're all rubbish till you've actually played them. Preferably on Linux. (Except Sim City. Thats rubbish.)

Recently Took the Plunge

[cyana]

I recently decided came to the exact same conclusion as the article supposes some people will--Vista was not getting on my computer and I didn't want to continue patching XP for the next 5 years. I have almost no Unix experience and the command prompt is something that I have never been comfortable with. But I had a lot of faith in The Community since I'm a regular /. reader and I figured that I could learn.

I use my computer for a couple of things:

1. Most importantly, media server, synchronizer of iPods and center to my home entertainment center.
2. Email, browsing, messaging.
3. Office documents.
4. Warcraft III.

Setting up Linux was difficult, I won't lie. I went with Fedora 6 after not really finding any distro review sites that I could understand what they were talking about. I don't "blame" the setup difficulty on anything--I expected it to be difficult for me. Configuring a dual-boot system took me 4-6 hours to figure out, setting up the right partitions (making sure nothing on my windows partitions got erased) took me wayy too long (screwed it up twice). Figuring out how to move from firefox 1.5 to firefox 2.0 was surprisingly difficult. I don't really understand why that particular thing isn't part of the yum update process but that's just an outsider's perspective. The other thing that was surprisingly hard was the browser plugins--I have an x64 chip and none of the plugins have x64 versions that I could find. So I had to install some firefox extension that creates cross-compatibility.

I haven't figured out Samba yet--this seems like it should be easy but so far it's not. Honestly, I'm inclined to believe that this is the fault of Windows Networking. Regardless, it's hard. As for Warcraft III, one day I'll set it up to run under Wine, but for now I'm happy dual-booting. It encourages me to play much less, which is definitely a very good thing.

Everything else has been pretty reasonable. It hasn't been easy, but it was more or less what I would expect moving from one platform that I've been using for 8 years to a totally new one. After 2 months, I'm now up and running and can use my computer for basically everything I want. I love the feeling of security I have in the system. File security is so easy and I love the fact that everyone doesn't log in as administrator. And I'm no longer terrified of viruses.

I'm very glad I invested the time and would encourage others in my position to do the same. Just keep at it--the answer is always there on a message board somewhere :)

Re:ya but

[__aaqvdr516]

actually you can get quite a few newer games to work. Unreal has had Linux distros for a while. Wow can be made to work under WINE. The problem with most of these games is the setup time required to get it to run. Why spend an hour or two attempting to get WoW set up under linux when you can spend 5 minutes installing it under windows?

It's a catch 22. More people would use Linux if the games were there. But the games aren't there because not enough people use linux.

For the record (before I get poo pood) I've had ubuntu and mandrake on 2 seperate comps. My laptop (3-4 years old) runs everything just fine. My desktop (2 years old) did not have driver support for what I have in it, and most likely will not receive driver support (Soundblaster X-fi sound card). Not to mention the config editing I had to do to get the Nvidia 6800 to work.

As a hobby Linux is fine. You won't get the gaming freaks to switch over any time soon.

Re:On the other hand...

[Torp]

sudo /bin/bash...

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[tha_mink]

Yeah, I read the thread where you "tried" to get help. Your take on the episode doesn't have a lot to do with what you actually posted at the time. I actually didn't think he was being *that* much of a dick. I mean, you can tell he was frustrated. He takes a bunch of shots at the people trying to help him, but still, he just seems frustrated. I can relate. When I first started trying to use linux years ago, I encountered the same types of problems installing RedHat and suse. The point of his bitching is that it didn't "Just Work" which is probably what has been forced down his throat by the people telling him to use Linux. Can't blame him for being pissed, only for being a dick about it. Just my opinion.

Re:On the other hand...

[paving-slab]

If you were competent enough to be trusted with a root account you would know it is trivial to achieve what you require on Ubuntu.

The sudo program used in Ubuntu is the same as used in every other distribution, so all you have to do is provide a password for root, edit the sudoers file to your taste and your good to go.

If you don't know how to do this are you sure a root account is a good idea?

My Ubuntu Experience

[alexgieg]

I'm also trying Ubuntu Linux on my desktop. I'm liking it a lot, although I didn't remove Windows yet. This is my 3rd install (1st one got wiped when my previous HD crashed, 2nd one I managed to destroy by running Nautilus sudoed and making all the files owned by root.root), and after some tweaking with Automatix and Automatix Bleeder, and uninstalling the older OpenOffice available in Edgy and installing the newer 2.1.0 one, everything so far is working well.

What I really miss in Ubuntu is a good and simple file manager. Nautilus is okay, but doesn't work in the intuitive way Windows Explorer works. Some annoying usability problems I have with it:

a) The tree view on the left panel doesn't answer to keyboard commands that work on folders and files in the right panel, such as pressing Del to delete a folder. Windows Explorer is consistent in this regards.

b) It doesn't get updated properly if I use a bookmarked folder to jump to a folder, I must press the Reload button for the tree structure to appear correctly. The same feature in Windows Explorer works as intended, with the tree instantaneously opening to where I jumped.

c) When I delete a folder I'm inside by right-clicking it in the tree folder and choosing Remove, it moves both the folder and the fact I'm inside it to the trash, thus making me lose the position I were in the tree. Windows Explorer deletes the folder and put me in the folder directly below the one that was deleted.

d) I can't move a file or folder with the mouse right-button. Windows Explorer allows this by showing me a context-sensitive menu when I release the button, offering options such as move, delete, create link, and other features integrated into the shell.

e) Lastly, even though Nautilus recognize some oddly named text files as such, double clicking them is an exercise in guessing: sometimes it will offer me a window asking me whether I want to run it (when it doesn't have the executable attribute set) or open it, other times it'll simply open it in GEdit, and others still it won't allow me to open them in GEdit, forcing me to right-click and choose the "Open with Text Editor" option. Windows Explorer, on the other hand, allows me easily select a default action for files with this or that extension, and it simply works.

If someone knows of a Linux file manager that works in intuitive ways, if possible a Windows Explorer clone with Gnome integration, please tell me. I'll start using it right away.

PS.: Interestingly enough, I play World of Warcraft, and while it started breaking in my Windows XP installation, showing latencies of up to 15000ms and disconnecting, in Ubuntu with Wine it works almost flawlessly. One more reason to keep Ubuntu running. :)

Re:My Ubuntu Experience

[Lugae]

Personally, I'm a spatial Nautilus user, but Thunar is another file manager that works with Gnome and has tree views. You might check that out.

Re:My Ubuntu Experience

[cortana]

Your points A, B and C are good--have you considered filing bugs about them so that the Nautilus developers know about these shortcomings?

For D, try dragging with the middle mousebutton. When you release the button you will get a menu offering the choice of copying, moving or creating a symbolic link.

Re:ya but

[thc69]

Why spend an hour or two attempting to get WoW set up under linux when

Yeah, I mean, who ever spends a whole hour or two on WoW? It's not like an hour or two setting it up would merely be a drop in the bucket compared to the RL-ignoring relationship-destroying thousands of hours you'll spend in WoW...

check first!

[oohshiny]

You can't expect Linux to run on some random piece of hardware; no other operating system does that either. In fact, genuine Microsoft Windows frequently doesn't even install on supposedly supported hardware--you need the vendor's preinstalled image. In comparison, Linux works like a charm.

If you want no-hassles installations, buy a laptop that's know to work with Linux. Even better, buy a Laptop with Linux preinstalled, and it will work out of the box.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[BJH]

OK, let's see how you acted on the Ubuntu free support forums:

Before you make this even more frustrating for me:

Nice way to ask for help. Sure makes me feel like giving you a hand (or maybe a boot up the ass). Mm-hmm.

I should never have believed all that crap about "providing access to all".

Useful information? Missing. Needless slagging off of OS you're purportedly trying to convert to? Check.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide in helping undo the damage Ubuntu has done.

I guess there wasn't quite enough needless slagging off yet.

I thought -- probably because of all the liberation/openness rhetoric of Ubuntu -- I wouldn't need Microsoft software to get Ubuntu to work.

And I guess he thought you were actually interested in recovering your PC instead of trolling the forums.

So in other words, you didn't read my first post, in which I said that the disc is fine and I've tried reinstalling multiple times. This just makes my day.

If this is how you act towards people you've never met who are trying to help you, I'd hate to work with you.

Don't see what difference that makes, given as I can't even get into Windows, and the problem is obviously due to GRUB. Seems like a fishing expedition there.

How about just giving him the fucking information he asked for? Too much to ask for some people, I guess...

Just yesterday I thought I knew what chutzpah was.
"Starting on the right foot" would include "not getting locked out of my computer because I installed a OS billed as 'Linux for Human Beings' ". "Starting on the right foot" would include finding instructions that answer the frequently asked question of "how do I set up a new partition and install to that partition?". "Starting on the right foot" would include an Ubuntu forum that doesn't take me a week of trying to access from different computers and connections before it consistently loads.
Stop making excuses. So I wouldn't answer what Windows version it is. Can anyone think of any reason why one version of Windows over another would cause GRUB error 25? No? Okay then.
The problem is not the devices, or the Windows version, or getting the latest install CD, or scratches on the install CD. The problem is the boot loader. The problem has already been diagnosed. You just want to chase all these wild geese because you don't want to admit that maybe this "access for all" OS has a serious problem.
Would somebody just tell me how to edit, modify, fix, whatever, the boot loader? That's all. It should be really simple, given the rigorous testing that they would put a software capable of locking you out of your computer through.

Sheesh. You actually expected that to make people want to help you more than they were already?

Re:On the other hand...

[cortana]

Why don't you just do 'sudo -i' or 'sudo -s'?

Re:ya but

[iogan]

It also runs stuff such as Flightgear (http://flightgear.org) which kicks Microsoft Flight Sim in the ASS. Not because of nicer graphics, but because you can do such cool stuff with it because it's open. Like use a webcam to get headtracking (instead of buying a $200 IR device) and just about every other cool thing you can think about.

I think we need more linux game developers, and for them to develop games that truly surpass anything available under Windows.. as soon as we have really cool stuff that's not available under windows we can get the hardcore people to at least double boot.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[whoever57]

Well, Ubuntu Dupe, I read the thread.

You were asked what your hardware setup was -- including motherboard. I did not see any answer to this question.

I don't know if this was related to the problem, but I would certainly suspect it could be. You have a 1250MHz Athlon -- that's about a 1400+ or 1500+, correct? The sort of motherboard that would accept such a processor might not have BIOS support for >137GB disks

And you had your installation on a 200GB disk, correct?

So, I don't know if I have hit on the solution. You have not revealed it (why not unless you are just a troll?), but YOU FAILED TO ANSWER A CRITICAL question.

You were also rude, which is hardly a way to get help. In fact, I don't think you really wanted a solution -- you just wanted an excuse to complain about Ubuntu. That's why you have not revealed what the eventual solution was.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[Thuktun]

As someone who has never seen this particular exchange before, yes, you come off like a jerk.

You may not have meant it that way, but that's certainly the way it appears to someone reading it. In every response, you made a snide remark about Ubuntu or the other posters, rather than being polite with the people from whom you're seeking help. Implicit in all your responses is that it's all Ubuntu's fault, that there could not have been any user error.

That's not how to ask people for help. Remember, you're asking volunteers for help, not demanding support from a company to whom you've paid money. I think the respondents were more than patient with you; I didn't see a single flame returned at you.

Re:ya but

[theantipop]

I'd agree with your sentiments. At home, Linux is a hobby that I indulge in on a secondary machine that is primarily use as a HTPC. At work, however, I would love to be running Linux. I had the pleasure of developing exclusively on a LAMP workstation a couple years ago and I was easily twice as efficient in Linux as I was in Windows. What really made the process a breeze for me was the ease of remote operation for pushing test code to the development server.

Re:On the other hand...

[ballmerfud]

Linux may not be just a programmer's OS, but the Ubuntu flavor of Linux, IMO, isn't a very good programmer's OS at all. I think it crossed that fine line between control and ease of use.

That's just plain silly. I've been programming professionally for ten years and in my experience, Ubuntu is exactly what you want for a developer's workstation. It has practically zero maintenance, installs right out of the box with little to no configuration, almost every major software package is available in binary form, being little more than an apt-get away. Beryl, OpenOffice, Apache, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Rails, you name it -- Ubuntu has the most up to date builds of everything, wonderfully configured, and ready to install. Do you need the GCC toolchain and related developers tools? apt-get build-essential. Done. Do you need various multimedia or Win32 codecs not in the main repos? apt-get easyb-ubuntu or automatix and with a click-and-drool interface that even a Windows user would love, a few mouse clicks will fetch and install it all, plus some stuff you hadn't thought of or knew existed.

You have over 12,000 available software packages compiled for Ubuntu, in the official repository alone, not to mention all the others. I came from Gentoo, and Ubuntu is infinitely better because I can put my effort into building *my* software, rather than everybody else's. That is the point of programming, right? Working on your software, not spending days compiling your system from scratch.

Yes, there are some dependency issues with some packages, in that they may link with other libs you may not want (e.g. amarok brings in MySQL client lib), but this is true with *all* distros. You are at the mercy of the package maintainer. If you don't agree, you have to compile from scratch -- as with any other distro. But typically with a workstation, who cares if you bring in other libs? You've got tons of disk space and the goal is comfort and ease. Perhaps on a server you may mince over deps, but that's another story.

And -- getting on my soapbox I just have to add it -- since Linux/UNIX/OSS is so incredible, once I have my system exactly as I want it, I drop to single user mode, mount a USB drive and to do a dump of my root filesystem, making an exact backup image of my system. From that point on, I will *never* have to reinstall from scratch no matter what happens. If my drive hoses, I simply boot from a live CD of any distro, create a root file system, restore from my backup image, update grub, and reboot. Right back to normal. No online activation or phoning home, no install keys, nothing -- just rewrite the system image to disk. What would take three hours in reinstalling Windows (reinstalling the OS, activiation, and all installing other software) takes under 5 minutes with Linux. Of course, if I *buy* more software with Windows (e.g.Ghost), I could follow a similar process, but it still takes longer, and is still more of a pain in the ass. I've done it -- I know. My solution now is to run Windows in Linux using VMWare player (free). Now, my Windows partition is actually sitting inside a Linux file system, which I back up to USB using the aforementioned process. Windows backups/reinstalls are now as easy as Linux (thumbs nose at M$).

Re:On the other hand...

[CmdrGravy]

A fair point but my cat can push my PC off the desk, cover it in firewood, pour on petrol and set it alight destroying not just my PC but my house and possibly my neighbours houses into the bargain. I've even caught it dragging a couple of kilos of semtex to my off site backup locations with a joyful gleam in it's eye but luckily I was able to distract it with tuna.

For this reason I've now banned my cat from playing with matches. I had a maths teacher once who claimed his cat could do quadratic equations better than anyone in his class which did make me wonder that if he was able to teach his cat so successfully to do maths why he couldn't teach his class to do it so well, I suggested he may have had a more fulfilling career in a circus at which he looked surprised and said he thought that's what he had done.

Re:ya but

[Carik]

Not necessarily true:

It may simply be spoken by someone who values big explosions and flashy effects over playability. (Face it... Nethack IS ugly. It also happens to be a good game, but that doesnt' change the fact that it's ugly.)

Re:Replaced Windows and not noticed

[Technician]

We've quietly replaced his copy of Windows XP with Folger's Coffee Crystals. Let's see if he notices any difference.

For me and a guest speaker, we made the switch and he didn't notice.

One of our social groups (not business) had a guest speaker. He requested we provide a computer and projection system for a PowerPoint slide show. The newest laptop I have is a Windows 2K/Ubuntu machine running Office 2K & Open Office.

He came and spoke and complained that his slide show wasn't working properly. The text boxes appeared all at once instead of Bullet line by line. In some simple troubleshooting we found the file worked properly on my wife's work machine running XP and Office 3K (not a laptop and not borrowable). Since I didn't want to spend lots of money on upgrades, I tossed the PowerPoint presentation at my Ubuntu partition. It worked perfectly.

I let the guest speaker know we fixed the problem with the presentation computer. At the next meeting, we simply ran the presentation on the Ubuntu partition using Open Office. Since we set it up for him and had it ready to go, he didn't notice the switch.

Searching later, I did find out about the free PowerPoint viewer from Microsoft.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[Chris Burke]

Who recommends burning a CD from a computer that can't load an OS?

I don't recall them saying it had to be the computer with the problem. Sure, this didn't make it easy for you, but I'm willing to bet that with just a little effort you could have found another computer with a burner and a high speed connection. I'm am 100% certain that it was "physically possible". And if you had done this, your problem would have been fairly simple for the forum members to solve for you. Instead you yelled at and insulted members of a community volunteering to help you with a problem for even suggesting that you take the most straightforward method of fixing the computer, because you "shouldn't have to".

Sorry, but you did have to, "should" doesn't enter into it. You didn't want to. Your problem didn't get fixed. What a surprise.

I listed four things, none of which had anything to do with my attitude, that had to happen, and did happen, for me to be in my predicament. None of them should have happened. Ubuntu should not have recommended Grub, at least not without explaining the possible consequences. Grub should not freeze when it gets that error. The files should be where there's supposed to be. The commands to diagnose should not fail.

Of course! Ubuntu/Grub had a serious bug, and should never have put you in that situation. Sympathy was naturally on your side. You managed to burn through most of that sympathy two sentences into your first post, and you burned through the rest when you replied to serious attempts to help with derision.

If any one of those had not happened, the install would have gone fine. Think about it.

And if you hadn't been an asshat with a sense of entitlement and a "I shouldn't have to" attitude towards self-help, you would have gotten better help to try to fix it when the install didn't go fine. Think about it.

Re:ya but

[mcvos]

Sure. Oh, you meant ones that do not suck greasy cocks ... no, sorry; it only does ugly amateur console-games like Natheck and Hangman.

Install Cedega. It's not Open Source, but it does come in a nice and friendly .deb package, and it runs a reasonable number of my favourite games perfectly. In a way, the installation, starting the game and running it in a window instead of a stupid fullscreen mode, works even easier and smoother than on Windows.

For some games, that is. Others just don't install or install but don't work properly.

Shopping.

[pavon]

For me what has changed the most is that the reliability of hardware is much harder to predict. 10 years ago there were good brands and as long as you stuck with them you would have a reliable machine. Now-a-days it isn't anywhere near as clear-cut. Every brand is trying to aim for the low prices and thus has it's occasional stinkers. And the hardware review sites are no help because they only test for performance not reliability. Pricing has also more time consuming as half the online retailers advertise artificially low prices which they make up for with high shipping costs. And if you are running linux, the amount of work necissary to check if the hardware has drivers has increased as well.

So while slapping the components together has gotten easier, shopping for them has gotten harder. Even 10 years ago, shopping for parts was always more time consuming then actually building and configuring the machine, now it is even worse. Not wanting to deal with all that and not wanting to buy a crappy HP/Dell was a big factor in convincing me to get a G5 for my last computer rather than a PC. Probably as much of a factor as the OS.

This may seem tangental to the original discussion, but I don't think it is. Like building computers, it's my opinion thatthe limiting factor in moving to linux isn't lack of technical skill, but being willing to spend the time lookup up how to do things that are different from windows, and scouring mailing lists and forums to find an answer when something goes wrong. So if someone is willing and able to spend the time to learn about everything you need to know to pick out PC components, and deal with windows driver issues on bleeding edge hardware, then they have the skills needed to use linux. The question is one of motivation - why would they do so if linux doesn't do what they want, ie play games.

Re:ya but

[mcvos]

blockquote> And here you have stated the problem perfectly.... Linux is for the guy who has no problem spending a few HOURS to get something working. People who want the machine to just do it with a minimal amount of effort use something else.

Not true. Ubuntu installs very smoothly, and if you don't mind paying for Cedega, Cedega and the games it supports also install very quickly, easily and smoothly. Installing firefox was a lot harder. Or installing WinXP. Or those very same games on Windows, even. Seriously, for gaming, Ubuntu+Cedega is as easy as you could hope for, annd it gives you a lot more control than you'd have in Windows.

Re:ya but

[clark0r]

Not to mention Doom 3, Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe, Neverwinter Nights (both) and don't forget Tux Racer :p

Re:ya but

[spazmolytic666]

Face it... Nethack IS ugly

You sir, Mr. sour grapes, have obviously never gotten the AoY and ascended.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[BJH]

Since GRUB was apparently having difficulty in stage 1.5 (where it tries to read from the disk), it's possible that it was looking for the bootloader in the wrong place (since you had three hard drives, a fact which you failed to mention until halfway through). The location of the bootloader would be affected by the Windows version. Depending on whether you're running Windows 95/98/Me or Windows NT/2000/XP, the bootloaders that are installed are completely different.

Now will you shut the fuck up, you loudmouthed waste of oxygen?

Re:ya but

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention [...] Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe

Is that the one where you compete to network the most Classic Macs together?

Re:ya but

[menkhaura]

Yeah, the usual ones: all the stuff from Id Software (Quake 1-4, Doom 1-3, Wolfenstein), UT2k3, Neverwinter Nights (the original, and its expansions), Darwinia and Uplink, and the run-off-the-mill patience, majhongg, tetris, sokoban &c., besides the ones ported by Loki (Soldier of Fortune, Kohan I [GREAT RTS], Rune &c.) and by Icculus (America's Army up to version 2.5.0 among others).

Re:ya but

[bigbadwlf]

Why spend an hour or two attempting to get WoW set up under linux when you can spend 5 minutes installing it under windows?

Whoah. You obviously haven't installed WoW under Windows. It's 5 CDs for WoW, 4 more if you have Burning Crusade.
Then there are the patches. When I installed on my notebook, there were at least 3 of those. The first was in the neighbourhood of 500MB.
In reality, you're looking at a couple of hours.

My point is that the actual copying of the files from CD is the big hassle with installing WoW, regardless of the OS. At least configuration is better than watching a mind-numbingly slow install, waiting to be prompted for the next disc.

My Windows Experience

[argent]

As someone who uses other sustems more than Windows, but with quite a bit of Windows experience as well, I have to agree that you've hit one of the places where Windows actually shines.

The tree view on the left panel doesn't answer to keyboard commands that work on folders and files in the right panel, such as pressing Del to delete a folder. Windows Explorer is consistent in this regards.

Consistent keyboardability was one of the things that impressed me in Windows right from the start... and the first version I used was Windows 2.something... but over the years Microsoft has gratuitously broken existing shortcuts, introduced new controls with inconsistent or *no* keyboard access, and generally degraded things until I would hesitate to use Windows mouseless.

But for all that they're still better than Apple or X-11-based systems.

It doesn't get updated properly...

Another strength of Windows, though it's not consistent. Luckily F5 almost always works to refresh.

When I delete a folder...

Losing the selection when deleting files or directories, or losing the selection on refresh, is another annoyance that Windows mostly avoids. Mostly.

I can't move a file or folder with the mouse right-button.

That's something that I thought would be really useful, but I find I don't actually do it on Windows... instead I do copy/cut and paste/past-shortcut when the default drag isn't the right thing, and I'm more bothered by Finder not having "cut" on OS X.

Lastly, even though Nautilus recognize some oddly named text files as such, double clicking them is an exercise in guessing

I'm wary of double-clicking anything these days, particularly on Windows. Open With is my friend.

The things that bother me about Windows Explorer are mostly things like "you can't open that in a Window, that's on the desktop!" and "you don't really want to see these files, yes I know you said you did last time, but I'm still going to hide them anyway". That, and the whole "html desktop integration" fire drill.

Re:Installed Linux on a machine running linux?

[Coryoth]

I'm not suggesting it is ready for prime time. I was merely trying to provide a description for the OP of how helping someone overcome initial difficulties/fears can pave the way. He was interested in helping his parents switch, and I was merely suggesting to him good ways to do that. I think the fact that you read everything as a "Linux is ready now!", whether it is or not, says more about you.

Re:ya but

[Panzergheist]

I'm not much of a PC gamer these days, but unless Linux gets real support (not Cedega, nor Wine, nor any other form of emulation/non-native method) of WoW, there's no reason for me to drop my XP box.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[eldepeche]

Unfortunately, you didn't follow the suggestions that could have helped. You also assumed that you knew the solution to the problem, which is pretty much never the case, especially when you're troubleshooting an installation of an operating system you don't have much experience with.

You absolutely don't need proprietary software to install GNU/Linux. You, quite unfortunately, didn't download the desktop CD. I'm not sure why, but that had a pretty big effect. If you had downloaded the desktop CD, you could have booted a working system and examined what was going on. Since you didn't have one, and refused to try to burn one on another computer, it was suggested that you find your Windows disk so that you could repair your computer to boot Windows.

I admitted, right from the get-"go", that this was my fault. Did you read the "It's my fault, really. I never should have ..." bit? That wasn't sarcasm. I don't suspect it was, but it was pretty chode-tastic. The end of that sentence was basically "trusted all you fucking assholes." I wonder why they didn't really want to help you?

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[BJH]

Jesus fucking Christ. You still think your approach was the right one?

Everybody was telling you to do exactly the right thing - boot from a CD that would allow you to overwrite the bootloader with something that would work - and you just kept whining about how you didn't have anywhere to burn a CD.
Perhaps you need a nanny to spoon-feed you everything, but at least make an effort to listen to the people who are attempting to help you.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[eldepeche]

You can't edit the bootloader from a non-bootable system. You needed a live CD.

Re:ya but

[HermMunster]

Linux used to be a hobby for me. For a few years linux was on the fence and one could fall off quite easily. Today though Linux has really matured. The biggest problem still exists--the linux zealot. They kill Linux, they harm the community, and the completely stifle growth on the desktop. The Linux community should shun them hard. They are like an outdated car. They are more broken than they are worth. It's best to move past them instead of trying to fix them. You can't appease a Linux zealot--they are harmful just by their very existence. I think the BSD community needs them now, and they should relent to the desktop.

You know in reality this fanaticism toward total open source is just ridiculous. On the one hand you see everyone saying Linux is only good if you are true open source while the majority say that they want quality commerical games and apps running under it. You can't have both. No one is going to release a commercial application or game as open source. So just consider the OS open source and get the applications/games running so the market share can grow.

I see the zealots holding everyone in a catch 22 with their false logic. We need development and yes that means comemrcial apps. Linux is just an OS. The applications and games are just applications and games. What benefits the users is more important then even open source. Never relinquish the open source product to the commercial venue but realize that the OS is just that, the OS. It is meant to be installed and forgotten. The users don't interact with the OS they interact with the applications and games. If you can get that through those zealot's thick skulls we'll have growth in the market. But that also means a real stand-alone universal distro applications installer.

It's about the USER not about the OS. Never has. These zealots have the same disease that Microsoft has -- OSitis. We, the users are the king. It is us that make or break you. It isn't about the OS. Your OS should provide the services to the apps and games so that we the users can benefit the greatest in the smallest amount of time.

All in all, I use Linux as my main box. My favorite game (Enemy-Territory) plays just fine on it. If I want to get any of my other games installed I can. Not that I can get them all but through Cedega or Wine I can. Keep in mind that there are quality commercial games out there such as Doom 3, Neverwinter Nights, Quake 3, UT2003/2004.

The problem here is DX9 and 10. It is a closed environment which requires a sizeable investment to learn and develop for. With Vista discontinuing support for OpenGL (even though OpenGL is still a widely competent and quality product) it makes it hard for developers to choose to target OpenGL even as a secondary target audience. These are efforts of a Monopoly power using tactics to close down its competition, clearly.

Gave Ubuntu a fair trial myself - bought Vista

[Cloud K]

I ask that instead of automatically going "OMG he went with Microsoft he must be stupid / evil / a troll / whatever" - you think seriously and constructively about the pros and cons of each platform and why the MS route was more suitable for me. And perhaps, how Linux can cater to my type in future.

I've been interested in Linux for a long time, but as yet I haven't found it suitable to be a *complete replacement* for Windows; and unfortunately because it's so inconvenient switching back and forth, I might as well use the platform which works for me. I find myself facing Compromises quite a lot with Linux, and this is fine for a secondary machine but not a primary one. The compromises are fully understandable - most of the software is written by unpaid volunteers in their small amounts of free time, there are patent/DMCA issues holding back certain areas and many hardware and software manufacturers simply refuse to develop for Linux. However the fact remains that there are still compromises to be made - and ones which I'm not willing to make when I can pay £67 and do everything and never have any compatibility problems, compromises or headaches.

I have a long log of my experience with Ubuntu somewhere, but basically it boils down to this:

- Installation itself was ridiculously easy - on par with Vista. It was after installation that things went downhill...

- It didn't recognise my 1Gb network port (Asus P5B) so I had to use the 100Mb one until I *recompiled the kernel with patches* (messy, and getting the bits together for compiling it was a bitch)

- I never got wireless networking going, it would see the access points and connect to them but not get any data through and signal quality read '0'. I knew what I was doing and it was clearly a bug. Even ndiswrapper with the win98 drivers didn't work. There were endless other people encountering exactly the same problem in the Ubuntu Forums (network section) but nobody coming up with working answers. I am not willing to accept "well you have a wire connection, use that" as an answer.

- I got bluetooth kind-of working, although it was flaky to say the least (to be fair, the same usually applies in Windows. I only know of Macs and other non-PCs that have decent, reliable bluetooth support)

- Getting something other than 60Hz on my monitor, required hacking xorg.conf manually... I can do this so it's not a problem, but really I shouldn't have had to. A flaw with Ubuntu rather than Linux itself (and a long standing flaw as I had the same problem with early versions) as other distros handle monitor detection and configuration perfectly.

- Getting things like java, flash, etc were a ballache, as ever, due to all the licensing/patent issues.

- World of Warcraft didn't work in WINE or Crossover when I tried it. I didn't get around to messing with it much, to be fair, but I expected the latter to work as it's advertised as one of their primary supported products.

- I'm a keen photographer, and photography in Linux is "pants", to say the least. The only decent, configurable RAW converter (not dcraw, which only does the basics) was the commercial Bibble, and even then - due to it not using Canon's SDK - it's not a patch on Breezebrowser Pro or Canon's own DPP in Windows when the results are put side by side. Photography was essentially the deal-killer with me: there are many things I'm willing to compromise on or 'live with' - but I am not willing to compromise on my photos, otherwise I wouldn't have bought a 30D.

- What with all the other bits of software and games for Windows which are not ported to Linux or supported in WINE, and the sheer amounts of time you *still* have to invest in getting anything out-of-the-ordinary working (not nice after a hard day at work when all you want to do is spend the few available hours having fun) I'm afraid I went with the horned devil. £67 (Home Premium OEM) seems like a very reasonable amount to pay after all the wrestling with Ubuntu :)

Re:Too many choices?

[Bacon Bits]

I've not seen any *nix distro use anything but /home for years, with the exception of the superuser wich always uses /root. The last time I did was about the time Microsoft changed from %windir%\profiles (the Windows NT 4 directory) to Documents and Settings.

Additionally, you can use the '~' shortcut. '~' is current user's home directory. It's equivalent to %userprofile% in Windows. '~fred' is user fred's home directory. Also, 'cd' with no directory always changes you back to your home directory (it's the same as 'cd ~').

Linux's unified directory structure is very confusing especially compared to the Windows system (everything is a file, logical to physical mapping is not obvious), but home directories are one of the easiest things possible. The most complicated thing for me was figuring out the difference between /bin, /usr/bin, and /usr/local/bin (and then /sbin and it's contemporaries). It boils down to needing to learn the FHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy _Standard), and then learning the history of the directories. For example, /opt and /srv are still rather new, so a lot of systems still use /var.

If you think about it though, Windows's directories are also rather complex. Windows doesn't install in C:\Windows. It's really in C:\Windows\System32. Program Files is supposed to be read only, and it's one of the reasons so many apps only work when you're an admin. Documents and Settings, while an accurate name, is filled with hidden directories where the OS is trying to keep the user from breaking it, but you still need to get into them from time to time. pagefile.sys is the system pagefile, hiberfil.sys is for hibernation. NTLDR is the bootstrap, and the bootloader is kept in the volume MBR and is completely hidden since all it does is find NTLDR and run it. Most systems have an \i386 directory copied from the CD since Windows wants it from time to time. There's also \RECYCLER which is the recycle bin, and \System Volume Information which contains information Windows itself uses as well as where it store the Restore Points. %userprofile%\NTUSER.DAT is the user's registry hive, while the other registry hives all live in C:\WINDOWS\system32\config. %windir%\system32\config\systemprofile and %documentsandsettings%\.Default user also exists on most systems, containing information on the default profiles. %windir%\system32\drivers is filled with kernel-mode code (real mode, mostly drivers) and %windir%\system32\dllcache contains protected-mode code (user-mode apps). Then there's 5 or 6 different temp directories, and storage locations for Group Policy, security objects, system logs, etc.

IMX, none of that is half as well documented as the Linux stuff.

Re:ya but

[mcalwell]

I was easily twice as efficient in Linux as I was in Windows. What really made the process a breeze for me was the ease of remote operation for pushing test code to the development server. Linux really comes into its own here - with sshfs/fish etc the network just disappears as a potential obstacle. Add to that the fact that X Windows is client/server from the ground up and you can export applications running on machines half way across the world to your desktop through ssh. I mean, how would you go back to a Windows machine for development/systems administration after that?

30 + days with Ubuntu

[r1_97]

It's more like 90 days since by Xp computer's hard drive crashed and I switched "everything" to my Linux hobby computer. I haven't looked back. Running Open Office, Firefox and Thunderbird gives me everything I need. I replaced the hard drive on my former "main" computer, re-installed Xp and went through Windows re-registration hell, but still use Ubuntu for all my everyday work except for an income tax program and a game. There's no way I'm going with all the added baggage to upgrade to Vista and MS Office '07.

Re:ya but

[utopianfiat]

I think exactly what you said is what ubuntu has caught onto. Ubuntu is a complete change in paradigm away from the configure-everything linux to an OS that is user-aware, configurable-yet-sane, and generally does what Microsoft fails at (and fails on an epic magnitude).

Re:almost but...

[jedidiah]

For just about everyone (even those of us building MythTV backends), the difference between the IDE drive and the SATA drive is going to be completely negligible.

The filesystems you use will make more difference than the whole IDE vs. SATA thing.

Intel wireless is easy in Kubuntu

[Micah]

I just installed Kubuntu Feisty Fawn Herd 5 on my new ASUS laptop with Intel 3945 wireless. It recognized it immediately on the default install and let me connect to my home router. Didn't have to do anything else!

Kubuntu rocks, try it! :)

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[Chris Burke]

No, if you actually read the thread (*crossing fingers*), I did follow many of their suggestions, specifcally, the ones tailored to the troubleshooting I had already done. None followed up after that.

I read the thread. I read the thread when you first posted this shit, when I was completely willing to go along with your premise that the community (at least one web forum subsection of the community) had treated you badly and refused to help someone in need, since I'd seen it happen before. However your first post before there was a single reply made it clear you weren't giving all the story, hiding the fact that you began with an atagonistic attitude. Your first reply to someone suggesting the live CD proved that you were being a complete asshat, and I was shocked as I kept reading and still saw people trying to help you, while you continued to blow them off.

Every reply you got after that which wasn't an outright flame you should consider a blessing you did not deserve. I sure as fuck wouldn't have replied after your second post.

You protrayed it as an example of the community gone bad. It turns out it was actually an example of an asshat barging into a community and demanding help while insulting those he was demanding help from, and lo and behold, said community didn't like the asshat.

Frankly it continues to amaze me that you want people to read that thread. Your story of being the poor abused supplicant blown off by the evil community works much better when we can't see what an asshole you were. I actually believed you, before I read it and realized the truth.

Is it too much to ask that people read my posts? Are you going to defend the community as a whole, when so many of them didn't bother to read what I had posted?

Some didn't, one even appoligized for it. Are you going to assault the community as a whole when so many of them tried to help you? Yes, yes you are. I find it funny because the one who appoligized really had no need to. You said "no error in burning the CD", but you never said shit about actually checking the md5 of either the CD or the downloaded .iso to verify that the data was correct -- writing the wrong data with no errors is not the same as having the right data.

But apparently you were being given the benefit of the doubt by the guy who appologized. I feel no need to do so. As far as I'm concerned you ran off on this expedition without so much as making sure the boot CD was correctly downloaded. And you'd probably blame the Ubuntu Community Forums for not making the Internet perfect, because you're entitled to an error-free internet connection.

I have to follow their suggestions? Fine, as long as someone can go on record saying "You need proprietary software to run Ubuntu."

Someone, somewhere, has found a Linux live CD useful in fixing a broken windows install when they didn't have a Windows install CD. Therefore you need free software to run Windows? Does that make any sense to you?

But more importantly, that has nothing to do with the fact that you were given a solution to your problem. You invent a reason not to like that answer -- you were running Windows before, so I highly doubt you care about using proprietary software to fix a problem -- just so that you can claim that you got no help. Well, you did. You were just unwilling to do anything about it. That is not the same thing. One is the community being unhelpful, the other is you being a giant asshole.

The only things I felt entitled to were:

1) having my posts read
2) non-miserable software design
3) people following up when I try their suggestions
4) people recommending solutions that are possible given my predicament.
5) that attempting to install Ubuntu would, at worst, not work, NOT that it would lock me out of all OSes.

What kind of rich-boy handed-everything-on-a-platter white priviliged fuck upbringing did

Re:ya but

[Panzergheist]

Let me preface this by stating some facts that will provide perspective to my argument.

I am quite used to Linux. I used to help my local University setup Linux in their computing labs. I was also one of those nuts who found it fun to use LFS. I started on Slackware and have since become accustomed to every distribution from Debian to Gentoo. I still run OpenBSD (yes, I know it's not Linux) as my network firewall, and have developed production firewalls using IPTables for government contractors. Nothing is "holding me back" from switching. I switched a long time ago. My statement is that there are still applications, (WoW is just one example) that are good enough and have no comparable replacement on Windows, that I need to keep it around.

Now to address your question of why I would not use Wine for WoW. It's really simple. There is a risk that as long as Blizzard does not produce an official client for WoW that your account may be banned for using "third-party" programs. Notice that I stated there is a risk, not a certainty.

I know what wine is. That is why I prefaced that list of tools with emulation/non-native methods. Wine is most certainly not native in the strictest sense. It is a reimplementation of the Windows APIs. It will never run applications as well as those that are made for Linux. It may run them as fast, but never as well. Please note the difference.

The biggest problem with wine itself is that it lets developers be lazy with regards to Linux. Why would I, a game developer, write any cross-platform code when I know that Wine will run it "good enough"? I wouldn't. And I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this way.

In conclusion, you're preaching to the choir about the virtues of Wine or Linux. I was evangelizing these same things before the turn of the Millennium. The comments I make are not really complaints of Linux, but legitimate observations of the software market.

Re:ya but

[spoco2]

Did you read the article? The experiences he had with Cedega were less than stellar, problems, low framerates etc. Not ideal

And $5 a month? I thought one of the points of Linux was that it was free... surely by paying $5 a month you're just paying the same amount as windows over a longer period of time, and all for less performance, installs that take 10 times as long as their Windows counterparts (read the article), and worse graphics and performance.

Sorry, doesn't cut it for me.

Defcon for Linux

[tjwhaynes]

Did I miss the press release or isn't Defcon still Windows-only?

You missed the press release. Download the beta (direct link) or place an order with TuxGames.

Cheers,
Toby Haynes

Re:ya but

[Anonymous Coward]

Blizzard already DID do this. However, they apologized and said that they supported people running WINE under Linux.

Jerk illustrates good/bad of linux community

[ukemike]

OK, let's see how you acted on the Ubuntu free support forums:..... goes on to illustrate with quotes how one user failed to make good use of the unbuntu forums

This discussion about the jerk and his problems with ubuntu and his interaction with the forums can be used to illustrate the greatest strength and weakness of Ubuntu.

The forums.

They are really amazing. There is a huge community of VERY helpful people that will usually step forward to help you solve whatever problem you have, for FREE. That's a great strength.

The weakness is that answers often come in the form of several commands with lots of switches and operators that should be copied and pasted into the command line interface. It often works but leaves the seeker of help ignorant as to WHY it works. After months of using Ubuntu, and getting really excellent help from the forums several times, I am still so ignorant that I don't even feel worthy to post a question anywhere but in the "absolute beginners forum." When I've learned how to do something in win or mac I can show another person how to do it, because I understand. With linux my answer would be, "post a question on the forums." It's like that weirdo in the computer lab said back in 1989 when I asked a dumb question about how to do something on the unix mainframe, "It's Unix son. You just gotta know." There is a significant culture of elitism linux and the culture that nurtures it.

Several times I have been given a correct bit of advise, but I have to ask several follow-up questions before I know what the hell the original answer was suggesting that I do. Someone once told me that their family owned land near Peoa. I asked, "where's Peoa?" The answer was, "near Oakley." Which was true but totally unhelpful. With windows and mac I know that the difference between newbie and power-user is time and experience. With linux I'm beginning to believe that there is a huge hurdle that must be surmounted before time and experience will help at all. I fear that I will never make it past that hurdle.

I hate to make this analogy but it is very useful to me. Windows 1.0 thru 3.1 (and really all the 9x's) were just graphical user interfaces tacked onto DOS. The modern Linux distros are really just a hodgepodge of extremely varied GUIs tacked onto the OS and onto each of the many different applications. When you need to get something out of the ordinary done you have to get into the command line. I am past the age where I have years of time to spend learning the intricacies of another CLI. That's why my 3 year old son's computer runs linux. HE will have the time to learn this stuff. So I guess I'm breeding/raising my own tech support, much like my Dad did.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

[Bertie]

Man, are you still bleating like a stuck pig about this? You know, with the sheer amount of effort you've put into this whine over the past months, you probably could have rewritten Grub from the ground up.

Any chance of you putting a sock in it?