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Vonage Loses VoIP Case With Verizon
cdrudge writes "A federal jury on Thursday said Vonage Holdings Corp. violated 3 of 5 patents of Verizon Communications Inc. and ordered the upstart Internet-phone company to pay $58m in damages as well as 5.5% in royalty fees per month per customer. Verizon said it would seek an injunction to block Vonage from using its patented technology. The jury did reject Verizon's claim of $200m in damages and that Vonage deliberately violated Verizon's patents. As you might expect, Vonage said it would appeal the decision and seek a stay if an injunction is granted. Judge Claude Hilton set a hearing for March 23 on whether to grant an injunction."
Guess I'll hold off on switching to Vonage for a little bit longer...
Another win for the little guy! It's always nice when the system works.
Create debt. Maintain debt. Keep people in debt. Work them until they die of debt.
How does this judgement affect the greater system?
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing," said John Thorne, Verizon deputy general counsel, in a statement. Yeah, for whatever company holds the patents. Using this same logic, wouldn't it help everyone a whole lot more if whatever technologies that are patented were allowed to be used by anyone? I hate patents.
Buckethead
I'm hopeing a company(Vonage) dropped alot of cash in political coffers. Not that I'm a care about that particular company, but this might be big enough to be the catalyst for serious patent reform that we so need.
We are all just people.
I have searched around and can't find the patent numbers that Verizon is claiming Vonage is violating. Anyone have a link to them or their numbers?
What a sickening outcome - even more sickening is it is just another in an endless farcical parade of patent lawsuits that show no sign of stopping.
"Vonage was told to pay 5.5% in royalties each month for each customer."
Wow, 5.5% for each customer you say? With 2.2 million customers that works out to 12100000% per month! Seems a little harsh if you ask me!
How can vonage claim patents on connecting things to the phone network ? Of course the TFA might be oversimplifying a bit.
I don't often see these things as groups of rich guys trying to screw each other over. Usually these things are a sign of rich guys meeting on the golf course and saying,"You know, if we make it look like we're at each other's throats, then we could slowly and carefully raise the monthly rates on the millions of investing idiots who take the news at face value every morning."
Which group of rich guys did this benefit? Even rich guys stratify. Usually the stratification of rich guys gives insight into upcoming political posturing. Which politicians now find themselves in the group of rich guys with more money as a result of this ruling? Is this ruling balanced by any other recent rulings which might have moved money in a different direction?
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
Their stock's at an all time low, they have the worst customer support (Bob aka Habib in India), their only source of revenue is over-advertising and saturating the telco market with their pointless, stupid commercials and worst of all.. their VoIP service sucks! My bet's this company going bankrupt (or will at least be bought out) in 18 months or less. Woohoo you fucking retards
I read a few articles on that news this afternoon but they are mainly aimed at the financial aspect of the story. I'm still trying to find what exactly are those patents and what are the larger (if any) implications for VOIP in general. Open Source Software like Asterisk could eventually suffer if Verizon begins a patent war and Vonage was only this first victim.
Traditional carrier are having a hard time adjusting to new technology and they will try anything to keep their old ways to stay relevant. During the last few years this happened in many 'traditional' sectors, music and movies being two of them. In the long run, they will adjust or die but for now all of those dinosaurs are desperate to keep their heads above the water. The crippled patent system is their flotation device...
This quote is from CNN's article on the subject coming from a Verizon lawyer:
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing. Verizon's innovations are central to its strategy of building the best communications networks in the world,"
Enough said!
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing," said John Thorne, Verizon deputy general counsel, in a statement. "Verizon's innovations are central to its strategy of building the best communications networks in the world."
.. um ... keep the economy going and create jobs? Why not just do the sensible thing [sadly in this case] and either buy out Vonage, or license the patents to them.
So they want to put Vonage out of business to
Though, the idea of "phone calls over the net" isn't exactly non-obvious or new. It would have been nice if the article could cite the patents they are violating....
Oh well..
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Ideal:
Person A has a brilliant, rare idea. Person A invests years in refining and expanding said idea. Person A goes out and patents said idea. Person A opens a business with said idea, reaping customer praise and financial reward.
The patent has encouraged creativity and expanded the market.
Reality:
Person A has a somewhat obvious idea. Companys B, C, D, and E without investing in refining or developing the idea run out and patent said idea. Patent is granted to Company B (and sometimes C,D,and E too). Company B sits on patent, preventing anyone else from opening said business in order to protect the large profit margins on their current offering. 15 years later Company B sells the rights to said patent to Clearinghouse F. Clearinghouse F takes the broadest possible view of said patent, and sues everyone in the business. Years of fun in courthouse G ensues.
The patent has prevented the use of the idea or object patented, and has been used to bleed money from companies who do produce things.
The ______ Agenda
Does anyone have any links to which patents and what is covered? Will these patents effect other Internet VoIP providers? How about Asterisk and similar open PBX solutions and protocol stacks?
How is Vonage supposed to have any revenues if an injunction is imposed? I suppose they could write some new code that doesn't infringe on the patent, but how would Verizon have any claim to the revenues?
I don't get it..
i havent seen any stories about any cases of good old fashioned "jury nullification" since the civil rights era when it was used to protect racist groups and institutions...
i don't get it.. it's ok to use jury nullification to beat up on african americans but its not to tell a near monopoly "no, we won't allow you to destroy one of your very few competitors"?
I think we need to start a new biggotry movement that somehow involves monopolistic patent trolls.. then we'll see some action.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
>> I cannot even conceive of using 500 minutes in a single month.
Hmm, so you don't have teenage daughters, then?
(Sorry, this is Slashdot. Slashdotter's are not supposed to have girlfriends or wives, therefore children [at least living with them] are relatively unlikly. Silly me)
"Cats like plain crisps"
The article claims that Vonage was in violation of "3 out of 5" patents owned by Verizon, but does not list any information about the actual patents except to claim that they dealt with call waiting and voicemail. I did a little research and was unable to find any reference to these patent numbers. Does anyone have any more information on the patents or their actual numbers or the court filings?
Why is Vonage taking the flame for VOIP? Isn't there other buisnesses out there that allow people to use the public phone lines for comunication from computer to phone. I use skype which does not have a monthly payment(12 months for $24 for an phone number and voicemail)and 2 cents a minute for calls made in the US. Also, I do enjoy the video phone functionality of it.
Maybe some of these?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
"Yeah, for whatever company holds the patents."
Nice to know schools are teaching something.
"Using this same logic, wouldn't it help everyone a whole lot more if whatever technologies that are patented were allowed to be used by anyone?"
No
"I hate patents."
To borrow a famous slashphrase. Those who can, don't. Those who can't do.
Agreed, I have been VERY satisfied with my vonage. I've had it for 2.5 years. I moved out of the US to a small caribbean island last year. I brought my Vonage modem with me when I moved. It works perfect from here. I have two vonage lines running over my business cable line. I kept the same numbers I had when I lived in the US. So my US family members and in-laws and Customers can make a local call and get me 3000 miles away. Vonage == money well spent.
They do appear to be overly broad even for the one filed in 1999. Maybe Vonage will be able to talk some sense into the courts after the appeal.
6914966
6795395
The original generic sig.
"I cannot even conceive of using 500 minutes in a single month."
You obviously don't have a wife and a teenage daughter.
This is essentially the end of VoIP if this decision holds. Basically, Verizon claims patents on connecting a VoIP line to a PSTN line and on common billing methods for phone service. Verizon was the first one they went after because they are the most high profile. Expect them to leverage this victory to take on anyone else offer VoIP to PSTN service.
With this decision, Verizon has just derailed the horde of VoIP startup/conversion trains rolling down the tracks into the future. I picture a caped, curly-mustached Verizon villain with a box and plunger detonating a high bridge made of glass fiber.
--
make install -not war
Look at these patents:
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6137869.PN.&OS=PN/6137869&RS= PN/6137869
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6104711.PN.&OS=PN/6104711&RS= PN/6104711
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6282574.PN.&OS=PN/6282574&RS= PN/6282574
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6298062.PN.&OS=PN/6298062&RS= PN/6298062
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6359880.PN.&OS=PN/6359880&RS= PN/6359880
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
So basically any VOIP system utilizing a database to authenticate callers and bill them for usage is infringement. Amazing.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
VOIP DNS.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
Same.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
Voice mail / call waiting / call forwarding I assume. Now this is proprietary because it's been ported to VOIP systems?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
This looks more applicable to wireless networks; I wonder how it applied in this case.
Top of the page. It's a small PDF, and the patents are near the back. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to find and read (and understand) the patents yourself.
This is bullshit.
I say we should boycott Verizon and refuse to pay any outstanding verizon bills till they back off.
Surely Verizon wasn't the first company to do VoIP. They've patented hooking voip upto a PSTN. Which is the only way that VoIP can work in a mostly PSTN phone system.
Is Cisco's PSTN gateway next? Are they going to sue AT&T/SBC, SuddenLink, RoadRunner, Northland, COX, or the countless others doing the *exact* same thing?
Can someone please slap these trolls with prior art to nullify the patent and take the ammo out of these bastards patent gun. Can you hear me now? Good.
I call shenanigans, get your brooms.
"Though, the idea of "phone calls over the net" isn't exactly non-obvious or new. It would have been nice if the article could cite the patents they are violating..."
The idea is rather old. I remember when I use to use an ISA sound card and a program (before VOIP) to make point to point "phone calls" over dial-up. Sounded like talking into a tin can.
The only thing this case really could in a worse case mean, is there's no central organized alternative phone service. There is however nothing that prevents point to point phone calls. e.g. Skype. The "phone directory" part is rather easy as well. The Genie is out of the bottle.
The telephone is old technology. It needs to die already. If I need to talk to a buddy, I send him an IM. I NEVER use customer service 800 numbers if an online chat feature is available. I order pizza online. IM technology needs to replace the phone. But then again, I'm an anti-social hermit who despises all human interaction.
Run a dial-up modem over it.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
"And really, who else do we call?"
Mom.
Vonage's businss model depends on Verizon, SBC and the other existing phone companies. It depends on utilization of their facilities without paying anything for the use.
It also depends on the customer independently having broadband Internet service, often over a conventional telecommunications companies facilities.
Vonage has pretty much no facilities of their own. They rely on the facilities of their competitors being used at no cost to them. This is hardly a case of competition - more of leeching.
Let's assume that Vonage were to be overwhelmingly successful against Verizon, to the extent that Verizon were to cease operations. Vonage would be unable to service the customers that were using Verizon lines to get on the Internet. Interesting. Vonage relies on Verizon to exist to provide free services so they can service the customer.
This doesn't sound at all fair or equitable. I don't see this business model surviving very long in any case.
The patents in question seem to have claim to have invented VOIP in 1999. However, the free world dialup project has been around since 1995. Also, back in 1998-1999 I remember Microsoft was offering free PC-Phone calls to the US using MSN Messenger. Their partner was charging for the same service. I think that would certainly qualify as prior art.
You also don't beat up ones that the jury (if there is one, I didn't RTFA) are most likely to be using personally or see as "The Good Guys". ie. Don't beat up on Skype. There are a lot of people who use Skype personally and a jury of those people would likely feel that they'd personally lose out if Skype got damaged. Rather beat up on someone else.
Then there's also the concern with legal fees etc. If you take them all on at the same time, you invest a lot in legal expenses. You're exposing a lot of cash. Rather expose a smaller amount of cash at a time.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Not the end of VoIP, only the end of US VoIP companies. Foreign-based VoIP companies are little if at all affected by this. This just opens the US market to foreign-based VoIPs.
The situation is not that different from the early movie industry, which was harshly limited by patents. Only California did not recognized the patents, and guess what -- the movie industry flourished there!
What's that sound?
Vonage's business model evaporating.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.