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The Economist Magazine Looks Outside For Insight

An anonymous reader writes "All of traditional media is scrambling to remain relevant on the Net, but The Economist of London is taking it to extremes, with a skunkworks operation called Project Red Stripe. The magazine gathered six staffers from around the world, set them up in a London office, and gave them six months to come up with a radically new idea for the business. As a magazine for free markets, they figured others would have the best ideas — so are throwing open the doors for community input."

139 comments

  1. Business Model by ChadAmberg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Man, that rules as a business model.

    I'm hired to come up with new ideas. Paid who knows how much $$. So rather than do any actual work, I'm going to let the internet schmucks do it for me! I just have to pick which ideas are best.

    Man, I'm in the wrong job...

    1. Re:Business Model by figment · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No kidding.

      I've read the Economist religiously for several years. I firmly believe it to be probably the best magazine/newspaper out there. I subscribe despite their sub price being approximately 5 times that of Times or Newsweek or any other magazine out there.

      That said, this is the most stupid idea I have ever heard out of them. They actually will compensate you, with a rocking 6-mo web-subscrption to economist.com (street value: roughly $50).

      Perhaps the Economist should actually talk to their economists, and ask them what 'Incentive Compatability' means. $50 for a new revolutionary business idea surely isn't incentive compatible. If I were the Economist, I'd be terribly embarassed about this.

    2. Re:Business Model by PRC+Banker · · Score: 5, Informative
      this is the most stupid idea I have ever heard out of them. They actually will compensate you, with a rocking 6-mo web-subscrption to economist.com (street value: roughly $50).

      Perhaps the Economist should actually talk to their economists, and ask them what 'Incentive Compatability' means. $50 for a new revolutionary business idea surely isn't incentive compatible. If I were the Economist, I'd be terribly embarassed about this.


      I couldn't agree more. They're failing at the first hurdle. Even worse, the terms upon which the idea is submitted basically means they can use the idea in any way they like and they will hold a patent on it. So it's not just getting a poor level of compensation for an idea, but giving that idea up for use by anyone except the Economist Group. Here are 4 clauses from their terms and conditions:

      1. You grant to The Economist Group and its designees a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive fully-paid up and royalty free licence to use such Submission without restrictions of any kind and without any obligation of payment or other consideration of any kind, or permission or notification, to you or any third party.

      2. The licence shall include, without limitation, the irrevocable right in the name of The Economist Group or its designees throughout the universe in perpetuity in any and all media now or hereafter known (i) to reproduce, prepare derivative works, combine with other works, alter, translate, distribute copies, display, publish, perform, license the Submission, and all rights therein; (ii) to apply for and obtain a patent in respect of any inventions disclosed in the Submission; (iii) to file an application to register any designs and/or any sign capable of being registered as a trade mark; (iv) to register any name capable of being registered as a domain name.

      3. In addition, you agree that you will (at the request and expense of The Economist Group) enter into such documents as may be required to perfect or secure such rights or to assign such rights to The Economist Group absolutely if so requested.

      4. In exchange, if we use your Submission then we will give you credit by acknowledging you as a contributor on our website at ProjectRedStripe.com and if we launch a product or service thanks to Submission, we will also offer you a free six-month subscription to Economist.com. Where The Economist Group applies for a patent in respect of an invention of which you are the inventor The Economist Group will name you as the (or if appropriate an) inventor in such patent application.

      --
      Oh.
    3. Re:Business Model by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the Economist should actually talk to their economists, and ask them what 'Incentive Compatability' means. $50 for a new revolutionary business idea surely isn't incentive compatible.
      Have you submitted that idea yet? Because if you haven't, I'll do it claim the 6 month free sub!
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Business Model by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I'll throw them a few ideas if they plan on paying me for them. If not, then fuck them.

    5. Re:Business Model by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1. You grant to The Economist Group and its designees a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive fully-paid up and royalty free licence to use such Submission without restrictions of any kind and without any obligation of payment or other consideration of any kind, or permission or notification, to you or any third party.


      Let's not ascribe more evil than necessary.
      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    6. Re:Business Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm hired to come up with new ideas. Paid who knows how much $$. So rather than do any actual work, I'm going to let the internet schmucks do it for me! I just have to pick which ideas are best. You can do it too: http://ask.slashdot.org/
    7. Re:Business Model by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Something about that sentence is beautiful.

    8. Re:Business Model by jackv · · Score: 1

      ..and also reword the proposal and claim it was mine!

    9. Re:Business Model by LordSnooty · · Score: 1

      Love the bit about 'universe'. Yeah, just in case we conquer other solar systems. Although the idea of whether licence conditions set on Earth apply in other solar systems' legal jurisdictions is still going through the Galactic Supreme Court.

    10. Re:Business Model by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Well, as I read it, they protect themselves from you, in case you would like to patent your idea once it gets accepted. They want to be sure they can use your idea. The keyword here is "non-exclusive". They will be able to use it, and you will be able to "licence" it to anyone else.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    11. Re:Business Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it possible for The Economist (or anyone) to patent something that was licensed to them on a non-exclusive patent? If so, the patent system is even stupider than I thought.

    12. Re:Business Model by alienmole · · Score: 1
      The sentence has a straightforward overall structure:

          A grant to B a C license to use D without E.

      The value of C is a bit complex, but not too bad. It's only the last clause, E, that really needs to be broken up itself, e.g.: F and without G or H, or I, to A or J.

      Even though some of the "variables" have long values, it's still easily comprehensible because it's mostly linear. Here's Perl code to generate the whole sentence:

      $A = "You";
      $B = "The Economist Group and its designees";
      $C = "perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive fully-paid up and royalty free";
      $D = "such Submission";
      $F = "restrictions of any kind";
      $G = "any obligation of payment";
      $H = "other consideration of any kind";
      $I = "permission or notification";
      $J = "any third party";
      $E = "$F and without $G or $H, or $I, to $A or $J";
       
      print "$A grant to $B a $C license to use $D without $E.\n";
    13. Re:Business Model by Plutonite · · Score: 2, Funny

      I meant the sentence:
      We should not ascribe more evil than is necessary

      It is so understanding of slashdot spirit, so wierd in it's usage of words.. putting mature limits on the ascribing of evil is almost comical in the techy world. Or maybe I needed sleep. Anyway, sorry for putting you through all that. Feel really guilty now :)

    14. Re:Business Model by alienmole · · Score: 1

      I've done some work with automation of contract writing, so your comment played into my bias. No worries, I'll just ascribe evil to you. ;)

  2. Ok, here's the deal by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    We make a beer. But just not any beer. A beer that's brewed in Jamaica mon.

    1. Re:Ok, here's the deal by shadowspar · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I thought when I saw "Project Red Stripe". You get to sit back, kick around ideas, and pound back lots of Jamaican beer? How sweet of a job is that?

      (Red Stripe -- It's beer! Hooray beer!)

      --

      There is a spellbook here; eat it? [ynq]

    2. Re:Ok, here's the deal by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      "Wait, I just read about something called trademark law."

      "Damn...project blue stripe!"

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    3. Re:Ok, here's the deal by maxume · · Score: 1

      No one who did the one would say the other...

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  3. The plan so far by wombatmobile · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The magazine gathered six staffers from around the world, set them up in a London office, and gave them six months to come up with a radically new idea for the business.

    In the first week, the staffers bought beer, wine, wisky, condoms, flat screen televisions and gaming consoles.

    In the second week, the staffers hired a young graphic artist through the internet for $35 per hour to set up a rudimentary web page asking for innovative ideas.

    The next 5 months is a blur.

    The final two weeks were a flurry of activities. So many good ideas to review! So little time!

    1. Re:The plan so far by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the webcam!!

      They couldn't have their own personal Real World® without a webcam!

    2. Re:The plan so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The final two weeks were a flurry of activities. So many good ideas to review! So little time!

      More like the final two minutes. The winning plan was:
      1. Steal underpants.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!

  4. Hint #1 - lose the "Web 2.0" crap. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Focus on content, not the technology, okay?

    Now, decide upon what your content will be that will make it different or more useful than all the other content out there. That's hint #2.

    1. Re:Hint #1 - lose the "Web 2.0" crap. by Mard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about. Nice work!

      I'll qualify this troll-like statement by pointing out that The Economist IS IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING CONTENT. Take a look at their website, since you've obviously never even heard of the little magazine they run that puts Newsweek and Time to shame, and you'll realize how uninformed your comment is: http://www.economist.com/index.html

      --
      DRM = Digitally Restricted Media. This is a viral sig, pass it on.
  5. red stripe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    boo traditional media...Yay online services!

  6. Hold on... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 3, Funny

    They want us to come up with their business plan?

    Well, ok. for a price I'll let them in on a way to turn their debt into wealth following my easy five step program. Soon, they will be able to afford the lifestyle they deserve. This is a risk free, money back guarantee on how to turn their outstanding debt into outstanding wealth.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    1. Re:Hold on... by susano_otter · · Score: 1

      I'll let them in on a way to turn their debt into wealth following my easy five step program.

      Let me guess: The fourth step is "????", am I right?
      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

  7. Wikipedia killer for selected areas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    including international politics and economics, and big money science (space, biotech, energy, environment). The difference would be that each article would be written and edited by specialists in the subject area, and all would be credited as in a regular magazine article.

    The problem with Wikipedia goes beyond hoaxes, fraud, and silliness. The problem is that an article written by 50 people usually doesn't "flow" the way an article written by two or three people can. Replace amateur journalism by a crowd with real journalism by a few.

  8. Sorry, could not resist by Cyberax · · Score: 2, Funny

    1. Create Economics journal.
    2. Let the people on Internet do your work. ...
    3. Profit!

    1. Re:Sorry, could not resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to slashdot. You just failed pattern matching. Next time include the ??? step.

  9. HA HA HA HA HA by innncomingg · · Score: 0

    NOW THEY want it for free....all my best ideas i have to give to the economist for free... i LAUGH HA HA HA HA HA at these pretensions by the big corporations that they are on the side of FREEDOM!!!! HA HA HA HA HA

  10. recursive business by jjeffries · · Score: 3, Funny

    They should start a business consulting for other groups who want to go into business but can't quite figure out what business they want to be in...

  11. You Can't Create Innovation by tedhiltonhead · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This raises an interesting question about the value of ideas. Naively, one might guess that anyone with sufficiently good ideas for the Economist's future are a) already working there, b) already working for some other organization that will use them, or c) independent entrepreneurs, implementing their ideas themselves. However, there is a real possibility that forward-thinking people do exist outside those categories, and who are perfectly willing and able to articulate their ideas to others in an actionable way.

    From the Economist's standpoint, however, creating an "innovation group" seems misguided. You can't *cause* innovation and creativity; you can only *allow* it to happen on its own. This occurs through maximal exposure to atypical influences, such as books, activities, people, and entertainment that one might not ordinarily choose. This, in fact, is how the brain grows -- by forming new synaptic pathways among its neurons.

    The Economist, or any organization, can best innovate by encouraging *all* its employees to, in the course of their ordinary work, occasionally take a moment to submit to management their views of how the organization's processes or other aspects can be improved, as it occurs to them. Good management must know how to create this culture. Everyone can be an innovator.

    1. Re:You Can't Create Innovation by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      You'd better CC: that remark to all the businesses that have R&D divisions.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  12. Okay by me by dave562 · · Score: 1

    Anything that the Economist does is okay by me. That organization consistently releases exceptionally informative and insightful articles. If there had to be an Information Ministry for an ideal one world government, I'd hope that it would be as useful as what the Economist is.

  13. Well, for starters... by CPNABEND · · Score: 1

    I am running 1024*768, and the page sucks. If they can't even get a request for what is wrong done correctly - this may explain what they are doing wrong!

    --
    My wife doesn't listen to me either...
    1. Re:Well, for starters... by skeeterbug · · Score: 1

      you have to have javascript turned on or their submission form doesn't work. they haven't even figured out how to make their entry form fail gracefully for people who don't have JS enabled. what can i say... this is like asking someone else for an answer while saying, "i already know the anwer, i just want to see if you do, too." frankly, i think this is in poor taste - those 6 folks are pulling in ~$500k per year and they want to add value by using the insight of others without compensation? they must abhor gratitude as much as they abhor closed environments. do they need to follow minimum wage laws? if not, how long until we get the... "i need people to run my business effectively. i'm not paying - but i'll give you credit on the company website. i can't wait to hear from you!"

    2. Re:Well, for starters... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a real computer?

  14. Deal killer by Somnus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From their FAQ, on the subject of remuneration:

    What will I get for submitting an idea?

    Unfortunately, we can give no direct reward or compensation for your contribution. If, however, Project Red Stripe chooses to develop an idea you have submitted, you will receive recognition on the Project Red Stripe web site and a free six-month subscription to Economist.com.


    I'm sure as hell not giving a money-making idea to the Economist Group if I'm not getting a piece of the pie. If it might save the world, maybe; if it's not money-making and helps folks, I probably would.
    1. Re:Deal killer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >What are the constraints and resources?
      > [...] We have six months and a budget of £100,000

      > What will I get for submitting an idea?
      > [...] you will receive recognition [...] and a free six-month subscription to Economist.com.

      Hey, impressive, the winning idea gets a 6-month free subscription! ;-)

      Come on economist guys, that's really cheap. You could at least save 80k of the 100k GBP budget and give it to the winning idea as funding for a startup.

  15. Mavericks at Work by ddebrito · · Score: 1

    One of the "best business books" of the year 2006 that
    the Economist recommended was:
    Mavericks at Work: Why the Most Original Minds in Business Win
    By William C. Taylor and Polly LaBarre. William Morrow

    In the book the cover some open source business models.
    One of their favorite example was an Canadian Gold mine
    that opened up their data and asked for new mining designs
    (or where to dig for gold in their fields).
    Sounds like the Economist is following this business model.

    1. Re:Mavericks at Work by alphamale · · Score: 1

      The same anecdote about the Canadian gold mine features in the opening chapter of Don Tapscott's new book, Wikinomics. Odd.

  16. Dogbert-esque by Wazukkithemaster · · Score: 5, Funny

    Give me $10000 a month, every month for the next 100 years. Your business will improve every year. If it doesn't, I'll just blame uncontrollable global market forces and claim your losses would have been more significant if not for me. It's bloody brilliant.

    --
    Live according to the Categorical Imperative. If the Categorical Imperative tells you not to live by it... ignore it
  17. The Economist Magazine Looks Outside For Insight by SoundDirections · · Score: 1

    Yes, what a model!!

    I hardly think gathering "staffers", employees, from around the world, is outside-the-box thinking, LMAO!

  18. Red Stripe by breadboy21 · · Score: 1

    Yea, Economics!

  19. Never give a sucker an even break by dsdtzero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The knee jerk reaction to this sort of thing is that they are trying to get something for nothing on the backs of us under appreciated geniuses. I've
    seen the NGASAEB W.C. Fields quote in The Economist many times so this mindset may actually exist in thier mission statement somewhere. However,
    I have a list of ideas in my head that I would like to see happen but know I will never make them happen. Ideas--even really good ones--are cheap. The hard
    part is making them happen. If they can extract something useful from the minds of the creative but uninitiated, bully for them.

    N.b.: Corporations do this all the time... Consider the pharmaceutical industry. Without the research that they get for free in the form of research
    articles that are in large part paid for by taxpayers the pharma companies would have to do WAY more R&D than they have ever done or will ever do.

  20. They deserve to be by 2Bits · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... doomed if all they can do was set up a lousy web site to ask for ideas from people on the street.

    That said, that's what the so-called "business consultants" do anyway. So what do you expect?

    (Note: I'm a long time Economist reader, I like it, although I do not necessarily agree with their sometimes-very-conservative view. I think they should throw those fuckheads out of the window instead of wasting time there.)

    1. Re:They deserve to be by martijnd · · Score: 1

      The Economist itself is one of the few fine print magazines that does not have to worry about going extinct anytime soon, but I second this-- the website and its pathetic implementation, not to mention the "submit your ideas, we will give you a honorable mention" fall far short of what I expect from the Economist.

      They gathered their most notorious underachievers in one spot -- and set them up to hang themselves?

      Potentially good idea -- but so far looks pretty shitty.

    2. Re:They deserve to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's not be so hard on them (both the parent and grandparent posts) ... I am a long time reader and subcriber of The Economist (and the website) and personally, it is THE BEST magazine there is, and compared to reading any of the US based magazines, the psychological sense of well being while reading it is enormous. The staff is first rate in their fields, though they lack tech/web savvy in the street-smart sense (e.g., their "screen saver" isn't reallly one - haven't looked for it lately). They don't have a hidden agenda (it is usually made very clear) and I never get a sense they are trying to manipulate me. They have been wrong many times (e.g., the Microsoft anti-trust case positions they took initially) and they sometimes openly acknowledge that over time. I certainly don't always agree with them, but I'll still say there is no better magazine for keeping track of what is important in the current world affairs.

      Having said that, the "idea mining" idea, with almost no rewards except a possible involvement for the originator is certainly insufficient to get a lot of people motivated.

      -rathinam

  21. Red Stripe Beer? by Lord+Prox · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ya know, this does explain the wacky-ness of the idea. It sounds just like what would come out of a brainstorming session with Red Stripe neuron lubricant.
    [exec 1] *glug* *glug* *glug* *belch* Yeah, like lets ask the Internet what to to...
    [exec 2] whadda we gonna call it? *glug* *glug*
    [exec 1] [voice type=bevis-n-butthead] hu-hu-hu hu-uh like Red Stripe hu-hu-hu


    SciTechPulse. Geek News Netcast. Hot Polynesian Geek Chick Host Silulu.

    1. Re:Red Stripe Beer? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      SciTechPlus. Geek News Netcast. Hot Polynesian Geek Chick Host Silulu. You know, there's something called a sig where you can put your advertisements. You don't need to spam everybody in the body of your comment.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:Red Stripe Beer? by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      he does if he wants it to be seen by people who turn off signatures.

      And, if he changes is sig, it gets changed in the comments.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    3. Re:Red Stripe Beer? by ZERO1ZERO · · Score: 1

      "There are 11 types of people in the world, those who know binaries and those who don't."# Uh, who's the third type?

    4. Re:Red Stripe Beer? by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      There's more than one binary encoding, hence the plural. You just filtered yourself into 0.
      Only you can change yourself into a 1.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  22. not much different from VC'ers... by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm hired to come up with new ideas. Paid who knows how much $$. So rather than do any actual work, I'm going to let the internet schmucks do it for me! I just have to pick which ideas are best.

    Laugh as you might, but this is almost exactly what Venture Capital firms do. People beat on their door with business ideas, they pick the most profitable, dump some money in with ludicrously favorable (for them) terms, and see what happens.

    One might say, "ah, but people benefit from VC money; here, people just get a magazine subscription." Well, I'd argue that the benefit to the idea-holder is about on par, comparing the two...

    1. Re:not much different from VC'ers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol what?

    2. Re:not much different from VC'ers... by DavidNWelton · · Score: 1

      Well, except for the fact that the VC's put thousands/millions of dollars (and quite often some of their own) into the idea. These guys just give you a magazine subscription.

      To me it sounds like they're copying the advice in "The Innovator's Dilemma" and attempting to hive off an "internal startup", but perhaps they should have done it with people who already had some ideas, plucked from within the organization...

    3. Re:not much different from VC'ers... by orielbean · · Score: 1

      No, VC firms are a lot more discerning than this. They require a working business model and actual working product before you get your funding. An Angel is more like what you described - give them the pitch, if they like you / your idea, they run w/ it and have far fewer questions. The VC firms are famous for pulling the rug out from underneath when you miss more than one or two quarterly goals.

    4. Re:not much different from VC'ers... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      As a capitalist, albeit a poor one, I've got to say that you're missing something here. The VC firm has the money (actually, I think it's probably someone else's money), and they take all the risk by investing it. So it's not unreasonable that they negotiate a deal where they get most of the rewards on the minority of the businesses they invest in which don't tank.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    5. Re:not much different from VC'ers... by Belgarath52 · · Score: 1

      Some people who present ideas to VC firms make fortunes, or at least something while nobody who presents ideas to the Economist's Jamaican Beer Project can reasonably expect more than a subscription worth $50.

      That's the difference. People play the lottery despite small odds, but wouldn't play if the odds were exactly zero.

  23. Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This seems doomed to failure. You think comittee thinking is bad? Imagine a comittee of tens of thousands or more. Filtering good ideas out of the gibberish would be a gargantuan undertaking -- probably one that is more difficult than just thinking up your own ideas. Didn't the article say that they got some of the best minds in the business? So why would those great minds turn to a few thousand sub-mediocre minds? Given the choice, I'll take half a dozen smart people locked in a room with a whiteboard and an espresso machine over ten thousand jackasses making decisions by mob thinking.

    It's interesting how in every modern war, the government that wins (assuming there is anything even vaguely like a winner) invariably puts a very small group of top military minds in charge of the war effort, even to the point of managing relevant aspects of the economy. Losers do just the opposite -- they let their legislature, congress, senate, president, chairman, corporate interests, beauracrats, and cronies make war decisions. And naturally, they either make retarded decisions or they rob the public blind at the expense of the war effort.

    Comittee thinking is a disease. The bigger the comittee, the worse it gets. Human collaborative efficiency for creative works tops out at around 4 or 5 people. If you hope to invent new paradigms, you'll be hard-pressed to accomplish it with even as many a three people, and even two is pushing it.

    1. Re:Model by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 1, Funny

      This seems doomed to failure. You think comittee thinking is bad? Imagine a comittee of tens of thousands or more. Filtering good ideas out of the gibberish would be a gargantuan undertaking -- probably one that is more difficult than just thinking up your own ideas. Didn't the article say that they got some of the best minds in the business? So why would those great minds turn to a few thousand sub-mediocre minds? Given the choice, I'll take half a dozen smart people locked in a room with a whiteboard and an espresso machine over ten thousand jackasses making decisions by mob thinking. It's interesting how in every modern war, the government that wins (assuming there is anything even vaguely like a winner) invariably puts a very small group of top military minds in charge of the war effort, even to the point of managing relevant aspects of the economy. Losers do just the opposite -- they let their legislature, congress, senate, president, chairman, corporate interests, beauracrats, and cronies make war decisions. And naturally, they either make retarded decisions or they rob the public blind at the expense of the war effort. Comittee thinking is a disease. The bigger the comittee, the worse it gets. Human collaborative efficiency for creative works tops out at around 4 or 5 people. If you hope to invent new paradigms, you'll be hard-pressed to accomplish it with even as many a three people, and even two is pushing it Everybody here disagrees with you.
    2. Re:Model by dotslashdot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You obviously thought this up all by yourself, without the help of a committee, because it is really stupid, thereby disproving your point. Democracies ARE committees; that's the whole point. When you leave one or a handful of people in charge, you get Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Incompetence. Occasionally you get Hitler, Stalin and Mussolinis. Unchecked madness. Are you saying democracies are losers and military fascists are winners? Also, your pointless rant is unfounded. These 10,000 assumed jackasses you refer to are merely offering ideas. A handful of people are making the decision of which ideas to go forward with. I don't understand why you're going crazy, except maybe that you could use a committee.

    3. Re:Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, funny mod please

    4. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Democracy is a horrible form of government. Can you point out even a single example of a democratic state that doesn't operate in a state of complete and utter lunacy?

      The problem with Vietnam and Iraq is precisely the fact that they were run by committee. Congress got to periodically hamstring the war effort, senators got to earmark funds for projects that did nothing more than keep useless people employed, generals couldn't agree on how to wage the war and were going in a dozen directions at once. In Vietnam, the government couldn't even agree to have the goddam basic courage to admit that they were waging war and not a "police action". In Iraq, there isn't even any clear military leadership -- Bush is such a complete and utter retard that he puts civilian and corporate leaders in charge of a military effort and lets them completely ignore the actual military experts.

      Your confusion stems from the fact that you assume that ANY handful of people will be equivalent. I'm talking about a handful of COMPETENT people.

      How do you find the five best ideas in a hail of "advice" from 10,000 people? You can't -- it's molecules of gold in a river. Valuable in theory, completley worthless in practice, because it's unrecoverable.

      The only thing democracies have going for them is that they can assign power to where it's most usefully employed -- small groups of experts that are close to the problem domain. Committees are only marginally better than small groups of idiots. Despotic governments routinely outperform democracies. That's the main reason that communist governments are so good at waging war. It's just that there's no way to ensure that despotic governments remain competent, or to replace them once they lose their way. That's the main reason that communist governments are so BAD at running their economies in the long-term. Democracies have the flexibility to go both ways -- to operate despotically when necessary, and to revert to the nice, safe, lowest-common-denominator shittiness of committee thinking the rest of the time.

    5. Re:Model by Antity-H · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Filtering good ideas out of the gibberish would be a gargantuan undertaking -- probably one that is more difficult than just thinking up your own ideas


      What if the garguatuan dataset was the filtered through a community process ? like everyone can submit ideas and everyone can vote for the ideas they like best ? :)
    6. Re:Model by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      I interpreted it that you get Vietnam and Iraq: the countries, not Vietnam and Iraq: the mess the US/UK make trying to sort out the mistakes they made incorporating said countries in the first place.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    7. Re:Model by dodobh · · Score: 1

      Fred Brookes put it far more succintly in TMMM.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    8. Re:Model by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Yeah, back in my day we had no stinking commitees, the Pharoh drew a trinagle in the sand and proceeded to beat people until he got what he wanted.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      The Mythical Man Month, if I recall correctly, is a book. That would seem to be significantly LESS succinct than my garbled pseudo-paragraph. Unless of course you mean the phrase itself -- which actually makes a lot more sense and is the very epitome of brevity.

    10. Re:Model by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      What if the garguatuan dataset was the filtered through a community process ? like everyone can submit ideas and everyone can vote for the ideas they like best

      Except "most popular" does not imply "best", and "best" does not imply "most popular". This is what the GP was stating by asserting that democracies aren't really that good at determining "best" courses of action.

      Of course, for this discussion to have any meaning, you have to have some more objective measure of what is meant by "best" in the first place.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    11. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      So they get 10,000 ideas submitted by ideas, and then we get more idiots to choose the best from among them? I take it you don't live in a democratic nation. Voting en-mass gives you results that are -- at best -- mildly horrible. At least when a small expert group makes a decision, you get the nice cleanly defined possibilities of -- at best -- awesome, paradigm-changing ideas, and -- at worst -- world-shatteringly stupid and evil. It's good to have such polarized outcomes, because it makes it easier to decide who will be up against the wall.

    12. Re:Model by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't forget, though, that the country that wins gets to write the history. And, since people in power hate the idea of anyone but themselves making the decisions, they will invariably ascribe faults to the loser such as you describe:

      "They waged war by committee, legislature, blah blah blah".

      There were a couple of countries in "the modern era" that were extremely authoritarian in model (Germany, Japan) and who lost a fairly big skirmish to countries that were anything but (USA, England) who both had huge running squabbles between political parties, legislatures, committees, etc. all through their war effort.

      Mark, you're a bright guy, but you didn't think this one through.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:Model by rustalot42684 · · Score: 1

      Right, but you're forgetting that the U.S. had way more production capacity, so once they [finally] went to war, they were producing more tanks, more ships, more planes, &c , as well as having a large population with which to man them.

    14. Re:Model by daigu · · Score: 1

      Thank you Ayn Rand. If you are focused on decision making efficiency, then yes, committees don't tend to be efficient in that way. However, there are many circumstances in this world where a focus on decision making efficiency or heirarchicial models of decision making are worse than the committee model.

      I'll give you two examples - one abstract and the other concrete. People that believe in "free markets" are ultimately arguing that the decisions and inputs of many individuals in a committee called a "market" leads to better decision making than "controlled economies" where you put the top 4 or 5 economic minds in charge of the economy.

      Peope that like the controlled model argue that it enabled agrarian countries like Russia and China to develop at a much faster rate than they would have in a "free market" system because they were more focused toward a particular end. You could probably also add the early years of Hitler Germany as an example.

      Which is better? Obvious problems with the controlled model comes from selection bias of individuals and what they value (both a good and bad thing depending on what decisions they make and how well they line up with what you value), larger likelihood of having incomplete information, information lag that makes it less likely to respond to changing circumstances, etc. However, it is really good about strategically focusing the economy. Which is better depends on what you value - to put it more simply, you might look at they at efficiency vs. development.

      Another interesting example is to look at resource allocation as it is practiced in any large organization - say Fortune 500. Resource allocation is a top-down, heirarchial decision making model that has a few people in charge and typically is characterized by how very difficult it is to get funding for any kind of unconventional idea that would improve the business.

      Now, one of the reasons that resource allocation uses a controlled model is because it is effective at stablizing and reducing costs. However, it also has disadvantages. For example, it is terrible at finding ways to create operational efficicencies (say, through building new infrastructure) - typically because the people making the decisions about funding are too far way from the operational problems to even be aware of what they are, much less understand them and the possible solutions. The result is the problem typically grows until it cannot be ignored - then more money is spent in a shorter amount of time to address it, in other words it is less efficient. You can perhaps also look to the matured economies or China and Russia after they reached a certain point to see similar problems.

      Some companies have tried to address these problems by making mixed systems. I seem to recall reading in Gary Hamel's, "Leading the Revolution" that Shell had a system set-up where anyone can an submit idea, and a small committee evaluates it within 5 days. The committee has people from every aspect of the business and they decide whether the idea is interesting enough to be developed. If so, then they provide $XX,XXX dollars to the individual/group to test and develop the idea and submit a report within 30 days. The committee then evaluates it again. If it has promise, then rise/repeat with more time and resources each time until it either is implemented to the degree it can be within the company or dies out/gets killed. This model combines centralized decision making, but it also tries to address the problems of centralized decision making - ignorance of on-the-ground problems, poor responsiveness and so forth - that are inherent in an authoritative model.

      Bottom line: Top-down heirarchical models can work best when you are executing an idea. However, if your goal is to find unconventional ideas, more people and more groups are better because the number of unconventional ideas that a single group can think of is finite and small (and is typically limited by group values and biases).

    15. Re:Model by stewsnooze · · Score: 1

      From projectredstripe.com
      "We already have some ideas, of course. But as champions of free markets, we abhor the concept of a closed system. This is why we would like you to submit your idea by filling out the form at ProjectRedStripe.com. The deadline is March 25th, 2007."

      Now read the first five words. They have ideas. All businesses must try to innovate around there product offerings. I for one am happy to see companies embracing the web and its users. Companies stop existing pretty fast without customers and The Economist seems to be reaching out and saying. "What can we do for you?" I'm glad they are not just going to push some in house fluff out on the world.

      The six months subscription is obviously, for me, a legal thing that they had to throw in to stay legal. You can't have a contract between parties without payment. I guess this is why my house lease cost a peppercorn. They are a company and I am not sure whether they have even figured out what to do with the ideas. Perhaps they'll involve the idea originators in a serious way when the gathering and selection round is over.

      I think that if they are going to be creative and help build and combine the ideas they receive they will need to be together. One thing the web hasn't gone anywhere near emulating is the personal touch. The ability to see the wince in someone's eye. An uneasy shift of the legs. They need to be together.

    16. Re:Model by dodobh · · Score: 1

      'The Mythical Man Month' is also chapter 2 of the book of the same name. Chapter 3 is 'The Surgical Team'.

      I would recommend reading the book anyway. It's still one of the best project management books out there.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    17. Re:Model by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Democracies aren't about picking the best idea. Unless you're having a referendum. They're not about picking the most popular idea either.

      They're about picking the best leader. The best leader is the one that is respected and trusted by the people they lead.

      Once they're elected, democratic leaders don't have any less power in-the-moment than totalitarian leaders, although they do have less capacity to make long term plans.

      Modern democracies are a failure according to the objective view.

      They've been hopelessly corrupted and have scaled badly.

      People no one trusts are elected, and when they betray every value they were elected on, there's no timely and effective process to get them out.

      Modern democracies just keep pushing more and more wealth into private hands where the administrators of that wealth don't even have the pretense of responsibility to society. Year after year, same old shit. Confronted with the corrupting power of Capitalism, they just plain fail.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    18. Re:Model by daviddennis · · Score: 1

      First, I agree with the grandparent that this seems a little chintzy, particularly the "if we like your idea, we give you a six month subscription to the online edition". Surely at least a 12 month subscription to the print and online editions would be warranted? I would hope my submitted idea would be worth a hundred and ten bucks at least, not $39.95.

      I actually think the idea itself is good. What they're trying to do is prevent the stale thinking caused by a bunch of like-minded toffs(*) in a room all exposed to the same ideas. So they invite us to send in our ideas, and they'll take a look. I don't see that as being a bad strategy at all. They figure that they need to be exposed to people unlike them.

      Pearson, the group that I believe still runs the Economist, had an interesting foray into movie production. Called Goldcrest, it was completely different from their normal business, and they got into it more or less by accident. Goldcrest was run on a shoestring by a brilliant chief executive, Jake Eberts. Because of Pearson's corporate culture, they were unwilling to pay him what he was worth, and so he reluctantly left (to an extremely high level of success in his own production company).

      His successor ran Goldcrest straight into the ground, with decisions that looked bad even at the time they were made. Of coure the subsequent losses were many times Eberts' salary demands. (This is all told in an extremely well-written book, 'My Indecision is Final', which I highly recommend to anyone interested in the world of film finance).

      I think Pearson would rather not make similar mistakes in online publishing, and that's why they're soliciting outside input. A very good idea, even if combing through the submissions will take a fair amount of time.

      One thing that helps them is that The Economist is a magazine with an unusually high level of intelligence and so the readers are pretty intelligent. I would think most of the submissions would be of high quality and worth reading.

      But a six month subscription? To the online edition?

      That kind of prize is simply not worthy of The Economist. Surely as a free-market publication they should appreciate our value better?

      D

      (*) This is a Britsh term for upscale, well-educated people, like Economist employees.

    19. Re:Model by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      And we couldn't beat Hitler and Mussolini without Stalin, Churchill, and an insanely war-powers-dictatorial Roosevelt making decisions on their own, or delegating them to people like Eisenhower.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    20. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It's a bit funny to think that the "democratic" and "capitalist" powers were operating as -- for all intents and purposes -- Communist dictatorships. It got results though; didn't America manage to field somewhere on the order of fifteen MILLION servicemen? That's greater than the population of most of the world's cities, and more than a few of the world's nations. Even Canada got about a million servicemen together, a remarkable feat for a nation of 25 million or so (although still less per-capita than Britain or some of the other commonwealth nations). But my God, 15 million. Even if only a fraction of them were ever sent overseas, it's a staggering number of people to trolly around. I doubt any contemporary government could manage anything like it. Canada had trouble evacuating just a few thousand people from Lebanon last year.

    21. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      I actually started reading it once, but got distracted by the necessity of learning COM and ASP for work. If I could do it all again, I probably wouldn't have accepted a job in which knowing COM was considered anything other than a character flaw.

    22. Re:Model by Razor+Sex · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying, is that they're not being paid appropriately for their labor input? ;)

    23. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      The point is that the USA and England each put small authoritarian groups in charge of their war efforts. In fact, part of the reason that England and her allies fared so poorly at first was that they DIDN'T operate in a centralized, fascist manner. It took the downfall of France and some early setbacks during the battle of Britain before they got their shit together. Both the USA and the UK were operating in an extremely Communist (in the Stalin sense, not the Marx sense) fashion by the end of the war. And when you consider the amazing feats that the Soviets themselves pulled off -- overcoming such ridiculously horrible initial results in the war -- you can't help but be amazed by what authoritarian leaders can do.

      The big thing that Japan and Germany had going against them was that they were stuck with the authoritarian leaders that they had, leaders that were geared for waging the kind of blitzkrieg warfare that characterized the early portions of World War 2; the USA and the UK (and the USSR... sort of) appointed authoritarian military leaders that were primed for the kind of warfare that they were actually dealing with at that point. And of course, Germany and Japan had comparitively little industrial capacity compared to England, let alone the combined industrial capacity of the commonwealth or the unheard-of levels of industrial capacity of the USA. But none of that would have meant a thing without commanders that had the power to act relatively arbitrarily and autonymously. That's EXACTLY what happened in Vietnam, and EXACTLY what's happening in Iraq. The commanders can't do the things they need to, because they have ass-hats like Rumsfeld trying run the war as a public-relations exercise. All the industrial capacity and technological superiority in the world is meaningless without the kind of good strategy that comes from putting a small number of domain-experts in charge.

    24. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      This whole conversation was worthwhile, just for the fact that I have now been compared to Ayn Rand. When asked which historical figure I would most like to give a ritualistic bitch-slapping to, I almost invariably choose Ayn Rand (I can't hate Nietzche, since he at least had the decency to go completely fucking insane by the end of his life).

      It's interesting that you bring up free markets. I would suggest that free markets actually fit perfectly into the points that I have made. Free markets function as a bottom-up, emergent phenomenon. Committees are the opposite -- they are an authoritarian, top-down form of management. Lots of people interact to develop a solution, but it still comes down to one decision that everyone is stuck with. The free market is a million people driving in a million directions all at once. If there's anything interesting to be found, someone is going to find it, even if only by accident. The committee is a million people loaded into a single bus, all yanking on the steering wheel at once. Sure, the bus will probably go somewhere -- but it's doubtful that it's a direction that anyone actually wants it to go. If you want that bus to get somewhere specific and useful, you designate one person to be the driver and let him operate the bus; and you try to designate someone that actually has some idea how to drive a bus and get it somewhere that people might actually want to be. And that is centralized, authoritarian leadership. That's not to say that people don't get some say in which bus they ride, or that they can't have the driver replaced if necessary. But driving is definitely not a collaborative activity.

      Decentralization abolishes both the committee AND the despot. Or rather, by allowing agents to operate independently, each agent can function as a despotism of one. You, making decisions for yourself, are the very antithesis of a committee. That's what I dig about decentralization, at least for those domains in which it works.

    25. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      I have heard the term toff before. We demi-british do get exposed to enough of the BBC's sloppy seconds(*) to pick up on these things. ;)

      The free subscriptions are actually a pretty clever idea, in my opinion. They give out a bunch of six-month subscriptions, but they give them out as part of this idea-gathering project, so that people feel like they're getting a prize rather than a free sample designed to lure them into a lifetime of purchasing the magazine. I mean, common -- these dudes study economics. Duping saps(%) is their meat and potatoes. If they do somehow garner a useful idea out of all this, bonus.

      (*) This is a ... nevermind.

      (%) We Canadians are big believers in taking money away from stupid people. After all, our entire economy is based on taking money away from Americans and selling them rocks, sticks, and ice.

    26. Re:Model by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Democracy is a horrible form of government. Can you point out even a single example of a democratic state that doesn't operate in a state of complete and utter lunacy?

      America? Oh wait...

      Seriously, Winston Churchill's quote about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the others is spot on.

      The only thing democracies have going for them is that they can assign power to where it's most usefully employed -- small groups of experts that are close to the problem domain. Committees are only marginally better than small groups of idiots. Despotic governments routinely outperform democracies. That's the main reason that communist governments are so good at waging war

      Actually, democracies are disturbingly good at war. E.g. if you compare the Axis and Allies performance in D Day. On the Allied side, the general in charge had a handwritten note with a speech prepared to say that the landing had failed and he accepted responsibility. Only desperate fightfighting by Omar Bradley at 3am prevented utter defeat. On the Allied side, Hitler had decided that the invasion would happen on a different date and time, and his minions were too scared to wake him until the early afternoon, by which time the Allies had a beachhead and air superiority.

      The Allies prepared well and still thought they'd lose, but the Axis didn't prepare at all and thought they'd win. In fact the Nazis managed to botch any decision involving military priorities - e.g. V2 vs fighter aircraft production.

      Or look at the Ancient Greeks defeating the vastly more numerous persians. Or the Iraqi army getting massacred in the first Gulf War.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    27. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      Democracies are sometimes good at waging war, and for precisely the reason I've described: when the chips are down, and the stake is all in, they put a "war group" together to make the hard decisions. The US and the UK both did this. In each, a small group of generals were given wide-ranging power to wage total-warfare on their own terms, right down to the level of managing the economy and controlling the "free" press. A democracy can emulate any other form of government as needed -- that's its strength. You want a theocracy? Elect your priests. You want totalitarianism? Elect the GOP. You want free markets? Elect the Liberals(*). You want libertarianism? Well, you're probably fucked for that one unfortunately. But you get the idea.

      The allies won because they put a few extremely clever domain-experts in charge of their war efforts. The Nazis and Fascists lost because they selected the people that would manage the war effort based on cronyism. Cronyism is the surest path to defeat, other than maybe nepotism (upon election, politicians should have their family and friends summarily murdered to prevent such odious hiring policies). And the Bush government? They engage in rampant cronyism -- and as predicted, they can't win a war to save their lives. Under current political conditions, America could be conquered by a pack of racoons.

      Hitler, in particular, arranged things so that he would always be told exactly what he wanted to hear. That's what cronies are good at. And Bush does the same thing. 9/11? Oh, we're sure that Iraq was involved. The iraqi people? They'll welcome us with open arms, they will. Mission accomplished? You bet! Being a born-again Christian? No, that's not even remotely retarded! Being too illiterate to read the CIA's reports about Bin Laden? You're better off without that evil book-learnin' anyway. ... and sure enough, Dubya has no concept of reality, no idea what's going on in the real world, and has fucked up every war decision he has ever made. It takes world-class incompetence for the world's most powerful and advanced military to fail so consistently at everything it does.

      (*) The Liberals are a Canadian Neoliberal political party, one that unfortunately has no analog in the US; they're like what the Democrats SHOULD be. Deep respect for personal freedom, only marginal nanny-state tendencies, and a godlike command of economics. Not socialist enough for my tastes, but I bet Americans could dig them as their left-wing party.

    28. Re:Model by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Filtering good ideas out of the gibberish would be a gargantuan undertaking -- probably one that is more difficult than just thinking up your own ideas. Is it really that much of an undertaking? Let's say only 1 in 1,000 ideas are any good, and that they get 10,000 submissions. Let's also say it takes, on average, two minutes to filter an idea. With 6 employees filtering, it would take less than 60 hours of work. Worth a shot, and by no means "doomed to failure". Worst case scenario is they get free publicity for their magazine. Best case scenario is that actually get a brilliant idea they would not have thought of themselves.
    29. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      Two minutes seems optimistic to me; any idea worth even cursory examination would almost certainly require a more detailed examination. I mean, we're not talking about going through a pile of drawings looking for our favourite. We're talking about proposals for a website, something that would be inherently complex. Some good ideas could be missed (a proposal every two minutes is an aggressive rate), and there will undoubtedly by at least one false positive at some point. And I don't even know that 1/1000 is a realistic rate of good ideas. The internet brings out the stupidest in everyone. None of us is as stupid as all of us.

      I could just be too suspicious of mass-collaboration (and yet I'm addicted to Wikipedia... the irony of it all). That's why I'm a libertarian-social-demofascistocrat with communocapitilocrastic tendencies that puts beef gravy on his tofu.

    30. Re:Model by ccp · · Score: 1

      There were a couple of countries in "the modern era" that were extremely authoritarian in model (Germany, Japan) and who lost a fairly big skirmish to countries that were anything but (USA, England) who both had huge running squabbles between political parties, legislatures, committees, etc. all through their war effort.

      In fact, they lost the said skirmish with Stalin's SOVIET RUSSIA (insert joke here), not a shining example of democracy.

      And yes, the Western front was really a skirmish in comparison, and opened very, very late. The real war (tm) was fought (and lost) in the Eastern front, against Uncle Joe.

      Cheers,
    31. Re:Model by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      The big thing that Japan and Germany had going against them was that they were stuck with the authoritarian leaders that they had, leaders that were geared for waging the kind of blitzkrieg warfare that characterized the early portions of World War 2; the USA and the UK (and the USSR... sort of) appointed authoritarian military leaders that were primed for the kind of warfare that they were actually dealing with at that point.


      I don't know if it was that well thought-out. I think chance plays a very big part in which leaders emerge in times of war and we were lucky to get some really good ones at a critical time. You make excellent points about the mis-handling of the war in Iraq, but I don't it matters what leadership does when a war is unnecessary or unjust. How does one "win" when the mission is so badly flawed?
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    32. Re:Model by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      I can't begin to understand your politics. I agree with you that group think and council-based decision making can be dangerously bad, and therefore cannot understand why socialism would be your government of choice. However, you made me laugh with this one:

      We Canadians are big believers in taking money away from stupid people. After all, our entire economy is based on taking money away from Americans and selling them rocks, sticks, and ice.

    33. Re:Model by daigu · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree with your sentiments on Ayn Rand more. But, reading this post and your previous one - particularly the despotism of one idea in this post - made me think instantly of her.

      I think there may be differences in how we view what domains these models work in. I've seen Quaker decision making a number of times that have given fantastic results toward understanding and resolving thorny problems that, at another point in my life, I would have favored an up or down vote on or a more authoritative decision making model reasoned along the lines of your bus metaphor.

      I think the experience with Quaker decision making is what led me to respond to your categorical condemnation of committee decision making - because in my experience it can be quite effective. It's slow, to be sure. But, there are many times where it is better to hash out all the issues, get insight from every source you can and get to general agreement - rather that appointing someone to be King (ala Saul or David) or driver.

      I do agree there are circumstances, like driving a bus, when it is better to have someone executing the decision making. But, I think it is also revealing, that the metaphor assumes a tension that in many circumstances can be mitigated. On a bus, people make decisions on whether to get on it because of the bus schedule, without a schedule general agreement can be made on the destination before setting out (and letting those going elsewhere get off), etc. But, it is also true that there are circumstances where it doesn't work and there is no general agreement to be reached - abortion, Iraq war, etc. These are also good examples demonstrating the limitations of decentralization - something I too generally think is a good idea.

      Not sure where that leaves us, but your post had me thinking a bit so thought I'd write something.

    34. Re:Model by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      I don't know, I think decentralization solves the particular issues that you mention perfectly. Abortion? Let each person make up their own mind and make their own decision. It seems to work perfectly. The Iraq war? Wouldn't it be better if each person had a little checkbox on their tax return where they could indicate whether or not they wanted to pay the additional tax monies required to fund the war? Or better yet, anyone who favoured the war could just send a cheque to their local militia, which could ship off as many soldiers as it could afford. Or even better yet, anyone who favoured the war could just buy a gun and go die their on their own, leaving the rest of you out of it (I'm not American, so it doesn't really affect me at all other than to necessitate numerous assertions of my Canadian nationality if I go abroad).

      There are certainly areas where decentralization doesn't work, and committees do have advantages over single decision-makers. A committee's indecisiveness can reveal that a problem may require a more subtle answer than simply yes or no. The sloth that committees demonstrate can give stakeholders more opportunity to impress their needs on the minds of the committee-members. Sometimes, simply failing to make a decision is better than any of the options being considered. But creativity? Assertiveness? Boldness? Never. The committee can't accomplish these things.

  24. Humour Paper by sugarmotor · · Score: 0, Troll

    When I read the Economist it strikes me their readers are interested mostly in humour pieces about world events, mixed with right-wing illusions and then also flashy ads.

    In other words, it's in my mind in a league with "The National Enquirer", and "The Globe", of course with a different audience and subject matter, but of comparable actual usefulness.

    Stephan

    --
    http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
  25. Stupid MBAs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Once again, I'm terribly disappointed at those stupid business (possibly MBAs?) types.

    Open source and all that shit is based on the concept of reciprocity of benefits. If I help them, am I going to get a position at The Economist and get a visa to be relocated to London?

    At least, am I going to get a piece of the dough?

    There's absolutely no benefit for me, since only them will be able to reap the benefits!

    Shit, these bozos at The Economist should at least learn the damn thing called "economics"!

  26. Who are these staffers? by Skeezix · · Score: 1

    It takes 6 staffers to run a blog?

  27. Innovation tank! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A room breaming with hope and inspiration. Nothing says innovation like a big square table.
    But hey! At least they're "Available to go to the Pub"

    http://redstripe.dyn-o-saur.com:8000/view/view.sht ml
    (link to a webcam of their office taken TFA site)

  28. And What's to Bet.... by darkonc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That, if they get a useful idea from the public, that they patent it (at least, in the US, where business method patents are allowed).

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  29. I'm not sure... by Mard · · Score: 1

    I have no idea if this plan will result in some way for The Economist to survive, but I hope they find a way to modernize where so many other papers are currently failing, because I've found them to be one of the single best sources for news in the world. Sure it's a week old by the time the paper (okay, "magazine") reaches my mailbox, but I still find myself learning more about topics that I'd previously only find headlines and blurbs about in mainstream national media. Sometimes the paper takes a stance I don't agree with (for instance, they basically support Bush's troop surge), however they present their stance on hot issues like this one in such a way that you really understand how someone can hold that belief rationally, rather than traditional media which simply tries to dismiss opposing viewpoints (or sometimes doesn't even present them, ala Fox "News"). It's refreshing to read compared to, say, AP source articles, which are written to the lowest common denominator. I suggest everybody take a look at their website to see what quality journalism in today's world can look like. The full content of next week's issue is available for free online (such is the nature of the internet), as well as some additional media content. If any paper deserves to survive the tradition to the new electronic era, it's this one....oh and I guess the NY Times should live, too.

    Check them out: http://www.economist.com/index.html

    Typically I would take the stance that if an industry can't adapt to the information age, it deserves to die... Leaner and meaner companies are still capable of competing in some markets, but journalism is an industry that by its vary nature requires more manpower to achieve success, yet their revenue streams are failing as people flock to the internet for news. The problem is, people ignore advertisements online and nobody has found another model that can support news organizations. Some companies will survive this "great dying": CNN and Fox News, for example, are owned by parent companies and are essentially pet projects of very rich men. It helps that television is still profitable, too. But must all independent news organizations be purchased to survive? Will the news industry solely survive as the philanthropic arm of gigantic megacorps in the future?

    --
    DRM = Digitally Restricted Media. This is a viral sig, pass it on.
  30. Wow by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1

    I'm reading a lot of what sound to me like childish viewpoints regarding their request for idea submissions. Great ideas are thought up every day. In bars and laundramats and grocery lines all over the world people come up with ideas. Most of them suck, and most of the rest are never shared with anyone, even if they're decent ideas. How many people thought of a chip-clip before somebody actually made and marketed one? My mom used to use clothes pins back when they weren't such a rare item. WAY before anybody sold a something called a chip-clip.

    Back to the Red Stripe solicitation for ideas... you don't need to (and shouldn't) spend a lot of money on a fancy website, or promise riches, for what is essentially a request to be spammed with thousands of bar-napkin ideas from people who are otherwise very unlikely to do ANYTHING about their idea, including share it, if it weren't for Red Stripe.

    If they have created a sort of small targeted think tank, then what they are really looking for is an endless flood of "inkblots" and doodles and crackpot ideas so they can sit around playing free association games in their effort to "innovate".

    I seriously doubt they are expecting to receive a business plan for the next e-bay. But in exchange for the word "auction" they'll toss you a bone.

    Sounds fair and bright to me.

    --

    Operator, give me the number for 911!
    1. Re:Wow by popo · · Score: 1


      Riiight. You send them your "crappy back of the napkin idea", and they'll use their razor sharp Oxbridge eyes to spot its actual brilliance. (You didn't even *know* it was brilliant. Afgterall, you're just some dolt in a bar.)

      Yes, these chosen ones have a unique talent: not for actually generating ideas, but for "knowing it when they actually see it". \

      Now here's the question: Let's just say for the sake of argument you had the most incredible idea for a media company in the history of corporate media.... Great! You've earned yourself a big thank you from these guys, and the satisfaction of seeing them promoted.

      Sounds fair and bright to you? That's funny, it sounds like an immense pile of horseshit to me.

      --
      ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    2. Re:Wow by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1

      Let's just say for the sake of argument you had the most incredible idea for a media company in the history of corporate media...

      You're missing the point. Ideas all by themselves are worthless. You have to actually take big risks to do something with them to create value. Anybody who thought of the next "most incredible media company" has 3 options,

      1- interrupt their busy schedule, miss their kids soccer games, likely quite their job, and then dedicate a good portion of their lives trying to get seed money.

      2- share it with their bar buddies and tell themselves it would probably never work anyway.

      3 - or toss their idea at Red Stripe and see if it sticks.

      The corresponding risk/reward scenario is then

      1 - Huge risk, give up tons of family time, maybe declare bankruptcy, maybe kill your marriage, and MAYBE make your idea work and get rich.

      2 - no risk, your buddies might think you're clever for a minute or 2.

      3 - No risk again, but your idea might take flight and you might get some small credit.

      Now... which risk-reward proposition do you think sounds the most attractive to most people?

      Again, ideas are totally worthless by themselves. Here on Earth, it's risk and effort that create value and earn rewards.

      Or do you think somebody will send Arthur C. Clark a check for his idea to build a space elevator?

      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    3. Re:Wow by skeeterbug · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. Ideas all by themselves are worthless. You have to actually take big risks to do something with them to create value.

      worthless is actually better than burning $500k on 6 people and a blog, no? you've entirely missed the point, imho. *if* one turns in so much spam, no compensation should be required or expected. BUT, should someone share the idea THAT SAVED THE FREAKING ECONOMIST, that person should be duly rewarded - much more so that 6 people running a blog groveling for free ideas. you see, if they *really* want the idea from the smart guy, they won't get it this way - so they've already defeated their purpose. what's wrong with offering $100k to the person with a successful submission? heck, they have no problem spending ~$500k on 6 folks who OBVIOUSLY don't have "the idea." it seems the person with "the idea" is the power broker in this equation, no? who are you going to work for - the person who pays you or the person who will put your name on a web page as they rake in millions off of your work? COME ON! this is the freaking ECONOMIST HERE! do they know NOTHING about, well, micro-ECONOMICS? perhaps a remedial econ 101 class is their first step in this process.

      Anybody who thought of the next "most incredible media company" has 3 options,

      you've missed the point again. this isn't about a person with "the idea" who wants to strike it rich... it is about 6 people paid to generate "the idea," BUT CAN'T! what are their choices? groveling for a "hail mary bailout" is obviously one such choice.

      1- interrupt their busy schedule, miss their kids soccer games, likely quite their job, and then dedicate a good portion of their lives trying to get seed money. 2- share it with their bar buddies and tell themselves it would probably never work anyway. 3 - or toss their idea at Red Stripe and see if it sticks.

      but why? this is the ECONOMIST. why should the person with "the idea" spend any time trying to save a group pulling in ~$500k for a large corporation? why? i would ASSUME the ECONOMIST covers micro-economics, no? again, you asked the wrong question. "the idea" guy isn't groveling here, the 6 "the idea, NOT!" people are in a world of hurt, not "the idea" guy / gal.

      The corresponding risk/reward scenario is then 1 - Huge risk, give up tons of family time, maybe declare bankruptcy, maybe kill your marriage, and MAYBE make your idea work and get rich. 2 - no risk, your buddies might think you're clever for a minute or 2. 3 - No risk again, but your idea might take flight and you might get some small credit.

      iow, effectively NO REWARD. what does micro-economics say about situations such as this? the worse the reward, the better the ideas that will flow in - s that where these guys/gals are at in their knowledge level? have these ECONOMIST employees exposed an INCREDIBLE gap in understanding regarding econ 101 principles and concepts?

      Now... which risk-reward proposition do you think sounds the most attractive to most people?

      effectively no reward == effectively no time spent on project sounds the best. don't you agree? how many times have you stopped by and helped out a business THAT DOESN'T PAY YOU. i'll bet you can add value to what they do... so why don't you stop by and add value FOR FREE? after all, your idea to add value to this company is worthless unless they implement it, right? so, go help every company you can for free.

      Again, ideas are totally worthless by themselves.

      not as "worthless" as 6 people without "the idea" - they COST ~$500k per year.

      Here on Earth, it's risk and effort that create value and earn rewards.

      there is no reward to give "the idea." the guy at the bar won't bother leaving the table to help these 6 "the idea, NOT!" people out. don't you get it? these guys h

    4. Re:Wow by sane? · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. Ideas all by themselves are worthless.

      Let's see: Good idea + Effort = Success
      or. . . . . . . .No Idea + Effort = Failure

      If you refuse to value ideas, then you get NOTHING. Why should I? For all I know I might have use for it in the future, or I might find the effort to exploit it myself. Not telling you maintains its value; telling you loses it.

      Personally I'd say that a good idea has more worth to a company than the CEO, since its been shown time and again that most CEOs have little better idea how to make a company succeed than the average chimp. If you pay the CEO six figures, you pay me six figures for the idea on success.

    5. Re:Wow by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Eienstien (or was it Edison?): "Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration". If you "save the Economist", I would asume 5% of their company is a fair price.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  31. Translation: by popo · · Score: 1

    "We have no ideas."

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  32. I've got this brilliant idea ... by chris_sawtell · · Score: 1
    ... which will cut transport carbon emissions by at least 75%.

    BUT I'll share it with you lot only after I see a few million dollars / pounds / euros / whatevers. Yup, it'll work absolutely guaranteed!

  33. Needs more Simpsons references by redleaf8 · · Score: 1

    "Look at me. I'm reading The Economist. Did you know Indonesia is at a crossroads?". http://www.duffzone.org/framegrabs/index.php?op=5& path=fabf14&file=fabf14-071.jpg

  34. A fresh database to play in! by blu3+b0y · · Score: 1

    If they want free ideas from teh intarweb, I say we give them the kind of quality one can only expect from late night posting trolls.

    Here's my entry:
    ====
    Title: The New Operating Paradigm
    Keywords:econ, windows, os, browser, mind-blowing, RSS

    body: We're just now on Web 2.0, and there are people already writing and blogging about Web 2.1. Pretty soon we'll be on Web 3.1, and just like Windows 3.1, that means a new paradigm of using computers. When the browser becomes the operating system in a few months' time, people will personalize their computing environments like they personalize their office or dorm room. Econometricians will seek their own profit-maximizing fiscally-embedded platform from which to make their trades. That will be "Economist X, the Operating System."

    How awesome is that?
    ====

    Another fifteen or twenty thousand of those and they'll spend all summer just looking for the few kernels of free corn in a sea of jabbering chaff...

  35. The Economist is the best.. by mumblestheclown · · Score: 1

    The Economist is the best magazine ("newspaper") in the world, which is why I pay a premium price to subscribe to it. The entire USA, sadly, has nothing that comes close. Hey geniuses: don't change anything.

    1. Re:The Economist is the best.. by homer_s · · Score: 1

      I used to subscribe to the Economist, but stopped after realizing that they had very few ppl there with any economic sense.

      The final straw was an article where the author claimed (rather proceeded with the assumption) that inflation is a general rise in prices.

      It is like a magazine about evolution being run by creationists.

  36. Cantor Fitzgerald comes to mind... by JRHelgeson · · Score: 2, Informative

    Cantor Fitzgerald is a bond trading firm, one of the few firms who can trade U.S. Government securities with the Federal Reserve Bank. They lost 658 souls on the 9/11 attacks, more than any other single company (their offices being above the impact site of One World Trade Center).

    In the early 1990's, it became apparent that their traditional way of doing business was going away. The future lay in electronic trading, not in suits talking on phones. The problem was their entire culture was built up around the brokers working the phones. They soon realized that changing the entire culture of how they did business would be nearly impossible.

    They realized that failure to change meant that newer startups would be soon coming online to take advantage of electronic trading, and that they would be doomed to a slow death of attrition as the competition cannibalized the marketplace.

    Rather than waiting to be cannibalized by some unknown competitor, they decided to create their own competition, to create their own cannibalizing agent. Thus was the birth of eSpeed which went public in 1999. As the broker/dealer market declined, the eSpeed market took up the slack and eventually consumed the old guard completely.

    The transition was so successful that before 9/11, Cantor handled about one-quarter of the daily transactions in the multi-trillion dollar treasury security market. The fourth quarter of 2001, after losing 2/3 their workforce, Cantor Fitzgerald posted a 25% profit.

    Today, thousands of traders at hundreds of global financial institutions conduct transactions worth over $45 trillion annually in eSpeed's multiple buyer/multiple seller markets.

    %-%-%

    Traditional media is scrambling to remain relevant on the Net because the 1:1 communication provided by the internet has completely decimated their existing business model. They are used to owning the information gathering and distribution networks.

    I have now completely abandoned the print media because I know that the reporting I will read is going to be one-sided, heavily slanted, while at the same time professing complete objectivity. How many print newspapers have had to shut down the online feedback on their editorial pages because the blowback was so overwhelming that they couldn't tolerate it?

    Digg is nothing but a groupthink mob rules mentality with no decent way to hold an actual conversation, which is fine because the one thing the groupthink mob mentality abhors is open discussion, so Digg is a perfect match for them. The positive result is that the level of discourse on Slashdot forums have risen significantly now that the Diggers have gone.

    I say that the future for The Economist would look a lot like Slashdot's discussions, where experts from around the world can opine on the news of the day.

    I have more to add, but it is getting late.

    --
    Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
    1. Re:Cantor Fitzgerald comes to mind... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I say that the future for The Economist would look a lot like
      >Slashdot's discussions, where experts from around the world
      >can opine on the news of the day.

      Wow. There's a second version of Slashdot that I'm unfamiliar with!
      Where is it, and how do I participate??

  37. It's their advertising agency's idea? by romit_icarus · · Score: 1
    I'm willing to bet that the Project Red Stripe initiative springs from their current advertising agency - BBDO!

    Why else would the team be situated at AMV-BBDO

    Where is the project based?

    Our digs are at AMV-BBDO, The Economist's ad agency, on Marylebone Road in London. Take a look at our web cam.

    And Ad agencies (I've worked in one) are usually credited for such poor ideas..

    1. Re:It's their advertising agency's idea? by The+Cydonian · · Score: 1

      Answered on their blog.

    2. Re:It's their advertising agency's idea? by romit_icarus · · Score: 1

      Thanks, but it still doesn't adequately answer why they chose their advertising firm's offices.. London real estate is too costly for this decision to be simply casual as it implies!

  38. Pyramid by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

    The dude got results, you can't argue with success. :)

  39. we dunno by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    they figured others would have the best ideas -- so are throwing open the doors for community input
    In other words "er, we dunno!".
    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  40. 'Net = decentralized; Red Stripe = centralized??? by kevinmc · · Score: 1

    Their bosses obviously don't get it (same 'ol same 'ol). Before the project the employees were scattered around the world, communicating via the Internet. When the project was created (to create something relevant for the internet) all of the project leaders were required to move to London and sit in conference rooms. As we all know, conference rooms are the worst place for innovation to take place. So the only idea they came up with was to throw their arms up in the air and beg for help.

  41. Economist must be in some deep Sh*t... by corecaptain · · Score: 1

    This has got to be one of the lamest things I have ever seen ...

    "We already have some ideas, of course. But as champions of free markets, we abhor the concept of a closed system. This is why we would like you to submit your idea by filling out the form at ProjectRedStripe.com. The deadline is March 25th, 2007."

    They abhor closed systems? Why aren't they sharing any of their ideas?

    "Your idea can be as simple or complex as you like. It could be a product, a service or a business model. Before you jot your idea down, think about how best to describe it (here are some hints for doing this). If you want to track our progress, please visit our blog, where we would love to hear from you."

    Okay, I have two great ideas for you!

    a) Online pet supplies for those on a budget.... ECONOPETS.COM

    b) Online delivery service for those on a bugdget ... ECONOVAN.COM ......

    jeeeeeez.

  42. Tilting at windmills by SideshowBob · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are no 'revolutionary business ideas'. For a century people have been conditioned to expect electronic media to be free, while print media has always been for-pay. The 'revolution' will be in changing those expectations. That just takes time.

    I'd also add that electronic media hasn't caught up to paper media in the area of convenience. I can roll up a copy of the Economist and stick it in my back pocket and read it while I'm waiting in the doctor's office. To read the Economist.com I have to take a laptop (or at the very least a PDA) and I have to somehow get the articles downloaded onto it first or rely on wi-fi service wherever I'm going.

  43. Please don't change... by Number10 · · Score: 1

    Please don't radically change the Economist. It's one of the few print publications that I still read.

    The high signal-to-noise ratio of the articles and "better than grade school English" standards are rare anywhere, let alone in print. Don't change over to a sensational headlines + ads rag in the search for higher revenues.

  44. You guys are missing the point by real+gumby · · Score: 1

    Most of the comments I've seen have been on the level of "those guys want us to do their job for free. Right" or "this is stupid and will never work."

    Flip it around and be selfish: The Economist has a certain set of resources: primarily access to a set of reporters around the world and some cash. If you're a reader, you know what the magazine (aka "newspaper") is like. So what would you prefer it to be? That is: what's the XXX in "gosh, if only someone would do a XXX, I'd be glad to buy it?" Tell them to make that for you!

  45. Socialism?! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

    Socialism is NOT my government of choice. I like a neoliberal government with socialist tendencies. You know, free markets, free trade, and a nice social-support network.

    1. Re:Socialism?! by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: not trying to argue, just understand.

      Does your view on health care fall under free markets, or social support?

      How do neoliberals differ from Libertarians?

    2. Re:Socialism?! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      Well, neoliberalism refers strictly to economic liberalism -- maximizing the economic freedom of the state's citizens and corporations. Neoliberals are very much into deregulation, free-trade, and they usually only interfere with monopolies if those monopolies are having a detrimental effect on their industry.

      Libertarians believe in freedom from the government -- so even government policies that are intended to guarantee the preservation of certain freedoms (whether social or economic) are considered unacceptable. Really, a very different idea altogether.

      As for healthcare, the conflict between public healthcare and free markets is almost completely imaginary. Even in a single-payer system like Canada's (the extreme of socialist healthcare), all the equipment is still bought on the market, the employees can quit, take new jobs, and negotiate aggressively for benefits and salaries, many services are provided by the private sector or are not covered at all by the public system, etc. Most medical specialists run private clinics -- the government will pay the bill if your doctor refers you to one, but I can still go to any dermatologist I want, at anytime I want, and pay whatever they care to charge. A system like Canada's does fail in the sense that hospitals aren't in competition with each other, but that has nothing to do with public healthcare; many nations have public healthcare systems in which public hospitals compete with each other AND with private hospitals.

      Public heathcare is just another social safety net, and doesn't interfere with free markets at all. It's no different than how disability assistance money doesn't stop the market for foodstuffs from operating freely, or cause the job market to collapse. Or the way that the existence of police forces doesn't prevent private security from being a highly lucrative field to work in (if you don't mind getting attacked by the occasional junkie with a hypodermic).

    3. Re:Socialism?! by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the thorough reply. As an American I am finding myself very leery of socialized healthcare, if only because of the quagmire my Government has made out of social security. However, I think you raise a valid point that socialized healthcare does not nullify free market advantages, such as suppliers competing on price, and private practices innovating new procedures.

      From a personal perspective, how do you rate your local healthcare? Have you ever been treated in America? If so, how do the two systems compare?

      Follow up question: is it fair to assume that Neoliberals and Libertarians agree on the issues of individual liberty and human rights? i.e. pro-gay rights, pro-drug legalization, etc?

    4. Re:Socialism?! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      Strictly speaking, there is no neoliberal position on individual liberties and Human rights. The Liberal party that I originally mentioned is quite progressive about both, but that's a separate issue from Neoliberalism. Typically though, they take the position of protecting rights and liberties, while libertarians just want to prevent the government from impinging on those things.

      The local healthcare? My position is probably VERY biased. I'm a student, and can't afford any healthcare coverage of any kind, beyond what the government provides. In the US, even with the cheapest, most basic healthcare insurance, I would have to choose between health coverage and buying food. This issue was driven home for me by the fact that within a week of moving out on my own, I developed a severe form of appendicitis and had to spend four days in the hospital. One year later, I got an inguinal hernia, which I would not have even been able to have treated at all in the US since it's not an acute condition.

      I actually only know one person who has had much experience with the US healthcare system, and that's only because she had to go to San Diego for an experimental form of Gamma Knife surgery that wasn't available anywhere else ... and even then, the BC government paid for the surgery and every aspect of the entire trip other a couple of tickets to the San Diego zoo.

      So the local healthcare? I'd rate it awesome, since the alternative for me is NO healthcare ... beyond emergency conditions that would necessitate my declaring bankruptcy afterwards. Naturally, I have little patience for those that believe their need to pay slightly lower taxes is worth more than my need to not be dead from a ruptured appendix (or my desire to not have a lump of peritoneum sticking two inches out of my abdomen). Of course without the social support system, I wouldn't even BE in university -- the social support system is part of what keeps the price of tuition for students down, what provides the student loan system I depend on to supplement my meagre income from my part time job, what supports the weird public-private transit system I use to get to school, etc. For that matter, without the social support system, I wouldn't have been able to go to school at all until I was 14, when my parents' income was finally high enough to not qualify as "hideously destitute", and I certainly wouldn't have been able to start university 4 years later.

    5. Re:Socialism?! by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      Thanks again for replying and challenging my own opinions and bias.

    6. Re:Socialism?! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      Eh, no problem. What opinions and biases are those? I'd have hoped that most of what I've communicated is simply fact -- the facts about whether one can afford health insurance with a 20-hour a week minimum wage job, the facts about what the Canadian Liberal party advocates, about what Neoliberalism constitutes, and about what Libertarianism constitutes. I've tried to keep opinion out of it, beyond explicitly stating my opinion that people who oppose public healthcare are literally advocating the premature deaths of people like me.

    7. Re:Socialism?! by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      Sorry for the late reply. Let me give you my p.o.v. in a nutshell.

      I am currently 26, born in 1980, American. I have been told my entire life that social security will not exist when the time comes for me to retire. Yet, despite this mantra of a doomed social security net, for my entire working life (~10 years now) I have seen a chunk of my paycheck, my labor, my LIFE, go to this system. At the same time, I hear horror stories of old people eating catfood to survive, and retirees working part-time to maintain their status of living. As I understand it, the average U.S. retiree living soley on social security is living well below the poverty line.

      To recap: the most heroic people in our society, the so-called "Greatest Generation" is being forced to live in squalor and poverty, DESPITE the fact that I, and millions of other working Americans, have paid into the system designed to protect them and their (IMO well-deserved) standard of living.

      My father was a collections attorney who worked to collect debt for hospitals. It is a disgusting profession which resulted in an equally disgusting person. I have NO PITY for the current system, and agree 1000% that it is DISGUSTING that a child or elderly person should be forced to suffer an emergency before being allowed healthcare, except for the lucky few who are covered by health insurance. For example, I myself do not have health insurance, cannot see a doctor without either a) paying a gross amount or b) suffering an emergency first. All the while, I work full time, pay my taxes, take out the trash and mow my lawn (i.e. I do what has been asked of me by the system in which I operate). To make matters more ironic, I am currently engaged to an RN who works at our community hospital, and hear first-hand the horror stories and tales of the disgusting, corrupt scumbags who profit from the status quo at the price of the health of children.

      So there's my dilema: on the one hand, I understand the social ideal, and agree in moral principle that a human being is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which occasionally demands a tylenol, an x-ray or an operation. On the other hand, I think back to my old boss who was fond of asking (in his broken-English way): Who gonna pay? Who is going to pay for socialized healthcare in America? More important- what will we get for our money?

      True, social security is another animal altogether, but to me it represents what happens to our social ideals when placed in the hands of the U.S. Government. And Republican or Democrat, it makes little difference to me- throughout the past 50 years both teams have looted and corrupted the system beyond the worst nightmares of a rational person.

      So there is my perspective. I am happy to lose a part of my paycheck, my effort, my life, if it means a higher standard of living for all, including myself. I am also happy to keep my own money and effort, and take care of my own healthcare and insurance needs. However, this half-ass "pay for the cake but don't get to eat it" bullshit is the epitome of unfair. To give a concrete example, I paid about $10,000 USD in taxes in 2006, and yet, besides roads, I did not consume a single public service. Even my student loans have been privatley financed, and paid for by myself.

      I fear that my nation will soon demand nationalized, socialized healthcare, and do so without considering cost as we so often do. But what then? How high can our national debt grow before China (et all) cash in those bonds and greenbacks for a more stable currency? And what then? Will my children's children think back to a time when grown men and women ate catfood as the "good ole' days"?

      I like Canada, and find Canadians to be especially polite and friendly. I spent a summer in Manitoba when I was 13, and loved every minute of it. However, I fear many here in the US are looking over the fence to a greener pasture, without first considering the immense cultural differences, not the least of which is a ~30 million v. ~300 million population. Not that we can't learn a lot from each other- we can- but it remains an Apples-to-Oranges comparison.

    8. Re:Socialism?! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
      That's the thing I always forget about Americans -- they never receive any benefit from their taxes, unless you count the huge amount of money that gets spent arranging for young Americans to be crippled in foreign lands. Frankly, if I were American, I'd probably boycott my taxes on principal, and be distrustful of anything the government did.

      For starters, IF the US went in for a socialized healthcare system (probably in the European-style, where the public and private systems compete), taxes would have to be increased. US taxes are about 30% lower than Canada's (I think that's the figure, anyway), and the US squanders most of what it collects; when you count what Americans spend on healthcare, the difference is much lower.

      It ultimately comes down to American culture -- in particular, the fact that Americans tolerate a level of corruption in their politicians that is unheard of outside of the worst banana dictatorships and African diamond-warlords. If Americans started voting based on the government's ability to budget sanely and to get maximum value for their tax dollars, rather than on retarded bullshit like how Christian the leaders are, America could have it all. Frankly, I don't know how America got so obsessed with Demagogues to begin with. The city on the hill was never meant to have a sociopath at the apex.

    9. Re:Socialism?! by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that sometime around the year 2000, after the immense tech goldrush of the 1990's, a good chunk of Americans started to feel left out. Those who hadn't gone to college, hadn't gotten the "good jobs", hadn't invested in those awesome tech stocks, etc. It seems to me a lot of these people feel bitter that they were "missing out" on the future, and so, in a typical childish fashion, they prefer to have no future at all.

      And then came 9/11, and suddenly racial bias was acceptable, religious war inevitable, and collectivley, America began walking, and then running, backwards. It was the one of the worst days in American history, and worst yet, it was our leaders, not our attackers, who did the most damage.

      America is my home, and of course I will always root for the home team. But so many of my fellow countrymen are so stupid, so easily distracted, and so easily cheated that I would almost rather forgo the advantages of socialism if it means avoiding the inevitable disasters these programs may create.

  46. America by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
    Well, such enlightened patriotism is always refreshing. Still, I'm not sure what you mean by "they prefer to have no future at all". I can't even begin to fathom what that would look like, outside of the idea of self-termination, which is probably not what you mean...

    I guess it could refer to the staggering number of Americans that genuinely believe that the rapture will occur at soon, let alone that believe it will happen at all. I used to try to be tolerant of religion, but after seeing what it's done to the USA, I now make it a point to help people of faith to feel deep embarassment and shame over their nutty beliefs (as nicely as possible, of course).