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A New Lease On Internal Combustion

Somnus suggests we check out the latest issue of MIT's Technology Review, where researchers describe how they can dramatically boost engine output and efficiency by preventing pre-ignition, or "knock." How they do it: "Both turbocharging and direct injection are preexisting technologies, and neither looks particularly impressive... by combining them, and augmenting them with a novel way to use a small amount of ethanol, Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine."

431 comments

  1. What new technology? by Reason58 · · Score: 0, Troll

    How long before this is bought/patented by oil companies and sealed away in the same warehouse as the Ark of the Covenant.

    1. Re:What new technology? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      It's an MIT research product.
      Anyone with knowledge of how they handle IP produced by their researchers care to comment?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:What new technology? by Rei · · Score: 4, Funny

      It might be a while. They're still busy relocating Jimmy Hoffa's body, plotting out new wars in the Middle East, and assassinating more people connected to the moon landing hoax.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    3. Re:What new technology? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be Warehouse 23, right?

    4. Re:What new technology? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you implying that they haven't done things like, say, help innovate Lithium-based batteries, then prevent their use in electric cars?

    5. Re:What new technology? by dbschman · · Score: 1

      Another company has patented another method of increasing the efficiency of a turbocharger without the need of injecting ethanol: http://cetengines.com/how.html

    6. Re:What new technology? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long before this is bought/patented by oil companies and sealed away in the same warehouse as the Ark of the Covenant.

      It won't. The oil companies have the consumer on a subscription model. As long as the average consumer continues to pay their $150/mo subscription, they actually prefer that the consumer use less gas in doing so. That may be part of the reason that this article had a "vs hybrid" spin. Hybrids are a staggeringly effective model (potentially better power, efficiency, handling, features and mileage) but they have the "flaw" of being able to be adapted to use any source of electricity.

    7. Re:What new technology? by Rei · · Score: 1, Informative

      Most aren't involved in batteries. Chevron is, but they're invested in NiMH.

      Lithium is no panacea. It is:
        * Quite energy dense
        * Reasonably power dense
      But it also:
        * Is a major fire hazard (if you've seen what a burning laptop battery can do, consider that a laptop battery is only a few dozen to a few hundred watt hours)
        * Has a sadly short lifespan, irregardless of usage patterns. NiMH batteries keep performing well even a decade later, but as any laptop owner knows, Li-ion charge rapidly degrades over just a few years of usage.
        * Is expensive.

      Works well for laptop batteries. Not as well for cars. I don't relish the thought of a car that's *more* likely to burn in an accident (or even normal usage, due to defects), and burn much hotter, and for which I have to change its expensive batteries every few years. I hope tech improvements change all this, but I wouldn't want present-day Li-ion battery power in my car.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    8. Re:What new technology? by waferhead · · Score: 1

      Great, some genius patented the Miller Cycle again, but now with direct injection...

      Sorta like anything "with a web interface" seems patentable again.

    9. Re:What new technology? by MrNaz · · Score: 0, Troll

      IRREGARDLESS IS NOT A WORD!!
      Use either "irrespective" or "regardless" but you can't use both at once!
      *Falls to the floor frothing at the mouth*

      --
      I hate printers.
    10. Re:What new technology? by jcr · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is a word, but it's also a double-negative, and people who use it hardly ever realize that.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    11. Re:What new technology? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      It is only a word if you consider recognized non-words to be words. The only reason irregardless has any entry in a dictionary is to say "this is not a real word, but lots of people use it mistakenly believing it is".

      This is where people who sat linguistics 101 chime in with "language evolves so who knows if it will be accepted in the future" or something equally silly. I don't know if it will be accepted in the future, but I know that it is not accepted *now* and will stay that way for a long time given that the word itself makes no friggin' sense. So cut with the crap. It's not a word.

      --
      I hate printers.
    12. Re:What new technology? by jcr · · Score: 1

      It is only a word if you consider recognized non-words to be words.

      Or if you consider a word with a prefix or a suffix to be a word. The word in question is "regard", and although it's improper to negate it with the "ir" prefix instead of "dis", the result is still a word, albeit one whose use tends to make its user look like an idiot.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    13. Re:What new technology? by Rei · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia goes into great detail on the word, and sums up:

      "Irregardless seems to be moving slowly in the direction of standardization. It has gone from nonexistence in the 1910 publication of Etymological Dictionary of the English Language,[7] to being a normality in modern dictionary publications, and it frequently occurs in edited professional prose. The fact that its listing as a "humorous usage" has practically disappeared today supplies further evidence in favor of acceptance. However, strong resistance to this word still remains."

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    14. Re:What new technology? by 10Ghz · · Score: 1

      IRREGARDLESS IS NOT A WORD!!


      "Yes it is! It means "without lack of regard"!"
      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  2. I find many of life's problems... by 26199 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...become simpler with the addition of a small amount of ethanol.

    In a large glass.

    1. Re:I find many of life's problems... by Goldenhawk · · Score: 1

      "Ethanol would be stored in its own tank or compartment and would be introduced by a separate direct-injection system."

      This does tend to give new meaning to the term "fuel siphoning". Imagine the fun...

      *grin*

      --
      --Brandon / Split Infinity Music

    2. Re:I find many of life's problems... by Penguinshit · · Score: 1

      imagine the brain damage....

    3. Re:I find many of life's problems... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      Mankind has made it to the Moon with thousands of years of ethanol-induced brain damage.

      You might be thinking of methanol, that is only fun once or twice.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    4. Re:I find many of life's problems... by More_Cowbell · · Score: 1

      Thats weird, I find many of life's problems become simpler with the addition of a large amount of ethanol from a small glass.

      --
      Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
  3. Old by jevring · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wow, this is yesterdays news. People in the tuning industry have been controlling "knock" in various ways for a long time. Either by raising the octane number on your ful (add ethanol or booster), so that you can had move advanced ignition timing, or simply retarding your timing and using the same octane rating fuel as you normally use

    --
    Move sig!
    1. Re:Old by AP2k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even still, water and alcohol injection used to cool the charge is not new, and has been around since the 30's.

      Whoever wrote the article doesnt understand why SUVs and trucks have big engines. Its not because they are powerful, its because they need lots of torque. You can pull a trailor up a hill in an S2000 just like you can a road tractor, but the tractor will use much less fuel and less wearing of the engine doing it.B enignes arent going anywhere in SUVs any time soon, despite this seemingly "revolutionary" new technology.

      I predict this will end up as a failure just like the last time an engine manufacturer tried this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire

      No matter how novel the technology, when the product's life depends solely on the customer, your product wont usually stay on the shelves for very long.

    2. Re:Old by iamhassi · · Score: 5, Informative

      "People in the tuning industry have been controlling "knock" in various ways for a long time."

      Exactly. This sounds a lot like water injection, which has been around forever and does increase mpg by about 10% in turbo cars and allows lower octane fuel.

      Here's what's going to kill the technology from TFA:
      "Ethanol would be stored in its own tank or compartment and would be introduced by a separate direct-injection system. The ethanol would have to be replenished only once every few months, roughly as often as the oil is changed. A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine."

      This is exactly like water-injection and it's why we don't see water-injection in vehicles. No one wants to have a separate tank that we need to remember to fill-up, and the 10% increase provided by water just isn't enough. This is the same story except it's ethanol, not as easy to find as water, and it's 25% better mpg instead of 10%.

      We will never see a production ethanol injection vehicle. Vaporware with a capital V

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    3. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Informative



      From TFA (and this goes for the reply above mine as well as the parent):
      "Similar approaches, some of which used water to cool the cylinder, had been tried before. But the combination of direct injection and ethanol, Cohn says, had much more dramatic results."

      Show me someone in the tuning industry using directly injected ethanol along with a turbocharger and regular gas. I've never heard of this approach.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Old by dr_wheel · · Score: 5, Informative

      I was thinking the same thing when I started reading the article. A quick search at any of the major car enthusiast websites will lead you to dozens of threads on direct injection and forced induction (turbocharging). This isn't news. There are already direct injection, turboed factory motors out there. The 2007 Saturn Sky Red Line, for example, is powered by a 2.0-liter direct injection turbo engine. You may have heard of another auto manufacturer using this same technology in it's diesel engines... VW's TDI (Turbo Direct Injection).

      The "new" part comes where they are using ethanol direct injection. It's a new twist on an old idea. See also water-methanol injection:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engi nes)

      Sure, it's not anything evolutionary. And the article might read like 1st Grade literature for anyone who is familiar with cars and tuning... but it's still interesting stuff.

    5. Re:Old by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is exactly like water-injection and it's why we don't see water-injection in vehicles. No one wants to have a separate tank that we need to remember to fill-up, and the 10% increase provided by water just isn't enough. This is the same story except it's ethanol, not as easy to find as water, and it's 25% better mpg instead of 10%.

      But the story is different because the system will know what to do when it runs out of ethanol, which is to say retard timing and reduce mileage and power output until you add more ethanol. Water injection is aftermarket and usually not compensated for automatically.

      The mileage improvement is pretty compelling and I think we'll see it implemented if fuel prices rise much more.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Old by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Try the BMW801 aircraft engine, as used by the Luftwaffe in WWII in the Focke Wulf FW190. That had fuel injection, supercharger and the MW50 ethanol injection system.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    7. Re:Old by Loualbano2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This actually is somewhat new.

      What they are doing is different from old alcohol injection that merely mixed the injected fuel with ethanol before it went past the intake valve.

      This method is using directly injecting ethanol similar to a diesel motor. The advantage seems to be the same effect but with way less ethanol. The article quoted having the ethanol refilled on the order of months.

      While the effects of alcohol injection are well known and are not new, this method seems to make it way more practical, which is new.

    8. Re:Old by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 1

      Hector Chavez is President of Venezuela. He's got nothing to do with ethanol production; in fact, the only reason we care about him is the oil reserves his country sits on, and sells to us.

    9. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's great, but the MIT spin-off is using DIRECT INJECTION, not fuel injection. There is an injector that actually squirts ethanol directly into the cylinder, not into the intake. Much higher pressures. Except for a German sports car back in the 50's, no one put direct injection into an automobile until the late 90s. While it is true that this is just an updated version of an old idea, it's still interesting enough to be called news if they can achieve hybrid-like fuel savings with just an internal combustion engine.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    10. Re:Old by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      Actually, his name is Hugo but, otherwise, you are correct. While the president of Brazil is pretty left leaning (and somewhat of a friend of Chavez's) the US government would much prefer dealing with him over Chavez.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    11. Re:Old by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Regardless, dual fuel will be the catch. Aside from convenience issues of filling up two tanks, E85 isn't even available everywhere in the US, and it's practically nonexistant outside of the US, Brazil, and Sweden. That means you can't take road trips, but more importantly it means the market is probably too small to be worth the effort.

    12. Re:Old by misleb · · Score: 1

      No one wants to have a separate tank that we need to remember to fill-up, and the 10% increase provided by water just isn't enough.


      10% is borderline, but 25% is pretty significant. I'd definitly give this serious consideration. Maybe we won't see it in "production" but certainly there'd be a market for retrofits or special orders. I'd love it if I could retrofit my Hyndai with this.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    13. Re:Old by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      Posted by someone else elsewhere:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire

      Not pure ethanol, but close enough. Especially when you concider that the reason it failed had nothing to do with the effectiveness of the technology. It was a sociological issue of people being to lazy to keep the ethanol/water tank filled.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    14. Re:Old by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Actually, his name is Hugo but, otherwise, you are correct. While the president of Brazil is pretty left leaning (and somewhat of a friend of Chavez's) the US government would much prefer dealing with him over Chavez.


      Except you can't reocate 1/3 of the worlds oil reserve. So you have deal with Chavez or Harper from Canada (the other 1/3).

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    15. Re:Old by blueroo · · Score: 1

      How about GM's Ecotec 2.0 liter direct injection turbocharged gasoline/ethanol flex fuel motor? You know, the one you can wander down to the dealership and buy today in the Pontiac Solstice GXP, Saturn Sky Redline, and Opel GT.

    16. Re:Old by Original+Replica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the main reason for big engines is high torque, how does Hybrid tech change our engine needs? If we can continue to tweek combustion for a set load (generator) we just need the electric motors and batteries to catch up to the demands of heavy hauling to make mileage improvements in SUVs and Big Rigs. Sure this might be the reapplication of old tech, but every step towards efficency helps. If an ethanol injected engine becomes "cool" with the SUV crowd, then we all win. Many if not most SUVs are status symbols more than heavy haulers. How often do you see someone towing their boat trailer uphill, really, not in a commercial?

      --
      We are all just people.
    17. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is well and good but diesels have been direct injected for some time. I really don't think these guys are going to achieve anything better than what current turbo diesel technology in the works can get as far as power and MPG.

    18. Re:Old by demonbug · · Score: 1

      Water injection is aftermarket and usually not compensated for automatically.

      Either the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VII or the Subaru WRX STi actually required water injection to reach the peak horsepower figure they gave, they just didn't include that fact in advertising.

      Hmm, come to think of it I think they were injecting water into the intercooler rather than the combustion chamber. Never mind.

    19. Re:Old by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      Very true, and that would be why, as much as they hate him, the US government still has to deal with him. However, I'm sure that they are very interested in any methods (ex. ethanol) that might allow them to, at least, minimise his importance.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    20. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      This isn't E85 - it's just Ethanol. It probably uses a relatively small amount of ethanol, probably small enough that you would buy it in gallon jugs. And it's in a separate tank, which, when empty, would just set the engine into a less-fuel-efficient mode. No need to cancel the road trip...

      But I think you are right, the added hassle of filling up a separate tank might turn people off of this idea enough to kill it. I can't tell you how many times I've run out of wiper fluid even though the little light warned me that I was low.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The Ecotec has an ethanol injection system and a turbo charger? I don't think so. Maybe in 2011 when this system is ready.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    22. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Yes, it will be interesting to see how much beefier they have to make the engine block in order to handle the extra pressure. But diesels still are limited to pretty low RPMs, limiting their power.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    23. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The technology actually DID contribute to the failure, since the turbo was plagued with problems. But your point is still a good one - people probably won't keep the stupid ethanol reservoir filled.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    24. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Americans are completely ignorant of modern Diesel technology. It's fucking sad, but their fuel is so cheap that you can hardly expect them to care.

    25. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "...limiting their power"

      Harsh. Apparently someone hasn't been keeping up on Diesel Technology lately. You know it was an Audi Diesel that one the last LeMans right?

      I dirve a little VW Golf TDI. 115hp is nothing special, but 175 lbs/ft of torque is enough to get the car moving in a hurry. The car is almost as quick stock as my '88 Fiero with a 3.4l V6 (about 180 hp and 175lbs/ft).

      When you have an engine that can (lightly/medium modded) put out 250 lbs/ft or torque from 1800rpm to 3500rpm, the concern is less about RPM and more about Gearing and shifting. Have you seen the new VW/Audi dual clutch manual automatic trannys? Their 6 speed DSG auto transmissions can upshift in 8ms. With that wide of gear range, and that fast of shifting, having a somewhat* limited rpm band is not an issue.

      *I say somewhat because the vast, vast majority of drivers will never spin their engine over 3500 rpm. Hondas, Subarus, what have you, they are all designed (stock) as commuter vehicles. And if you have to turn 7k rpms to get your car off the line, it's not going to hold up to daily driving.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    26. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Modern ECUs will already retard the timing based on anti-knock sensor input. Not much of a stretch to change to programming to accommodate this

    27. Re:Old by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      "We will never see a production ethanol injection vehicle. Vaporware with a capital V" We will see $5.00 per galon in the US in the not distant future. I'd say any new car you buy today will see $5/gal gas in it's tank before the end of it's life. At that price this new system will recover $20 per fill up. It will pay for itself quickly. From a car maker's point of view they have to think "how many more cars will we sell if the MPG can be listed as 25% greater?" Of course that depends. Many buyers don't care about MPG but in some markets it is a huge seling point. Cars today are computer controlled so it is very cheap and esy to revert to "standard" timing if say the ethanol system runs out of fails. Don't forget military and fleet applications. This market does care about MPG. I can see this used on Humvees and FedEx trucks

    28. Re:Old by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen would be a better choice than ethanol.

      You can add an onboard hydrogen generation systems without any engine modifications (neither aftermarket nor at the factory). It even works on motors with a carb & diesels.

      Not to mention you'll pay a lot less for distilled water than the artificially inflated ethanol prices in the USA.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    29. Re:Old by Spoke · · Score: 1

      You must mean spraying water onto the intercooler, not into. Neither the STi or the EVO has water injection.

    30. Re:Old by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I'll bet if your wiper fluid saved you 25% on your fuel bill you'd fill it.

    31. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we won't see it in "production" but certainly there'd be a market for retrofits or special orders. I'd love it if I could retrofit my Hyndai with this.
      Do you use gentoo by perchance?
    32. Re:Old by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Another thing not being discussed these days are power recovery turbines, "Turbo-compound" for those of you who remember the Connies. By the way, that water injection extended into the jet age by increasing the mass, thus the thrust, shooting out the back end, and it's also a good way to keep the cylinders clean during operation of your regular internal combustion engines. The stuff in the article is little more than fluff with lots of new patents that somebody's trying to sell. I'm not impressed.

      --
      What?
    33. Re:Old by HUADPE · · Score: 1

      The car will work when the ethanol runs out, just less efficiently. Also, ethanol is really pretty easy to make at home. Buy a distillation rig and a jug of vodka. Distill vodka. Ethanol abounds.

      --
      This sig has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any disease.
    34. Re:Old by qzulla · · Score: 1
      The mileage improvement is pretty compelling and I think we'll see it implemented if fuel prices rise much more.

      Which would lead to a rise in fuel prices. They sell less, they charge more.

      Simple arithmetic.

      qz

    35. Re:Old by r.muk · · Score: 1

      No one wants to have a separate tank that we need to remember to fill-up, and the 10% increase provided by water just isn't enough. This is the same story except it's ethanol, not as easy to find as water, and it's 25% better mpg instead of 10%.

      Just routinely top-up the ethanol tank whenever you buy gas. It'll just be a few millilitres (from what TFA says) - maybe up to a litre or so. No big deal, no big inconvenience.

      Also a cooler combustion is going to reduce NOx - very important with emission regs. tightening.

    36. Re:Old by ksheff · · Score: 1

      I know people who buy a bottle of Everclear just about everytime they get fuel for their car, so this won't be a big deal. One bottle for them, one bottle for the car.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    37. Re:Old by ksheff · · Score: 1

      what if it scores better on the emissions ratings?

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    38. Re:Old by modecx · · Score: 1

      But the story is different because the system will know what to do when it runs out of ethanol, which is to say retard timing and reduce mileage and power output until you add more ethanol. Water injection is aftermarket and usually not compensated for automatically.

      The mileage improvement is pretty compelling and I think we'll see it implemented if fuel prices rise much more.


      Like the anonymous user noted, modern cars have anti-knock sensors, and they will retard ignition, or reduce boost, or both.

      But here's the real deal: The primary purpose of water injection is to cool the air as it enters the intake manifold via evaporation. Water injection works just like a swamp cooler.

      More than that, however, most cars with electronic fuel injection have a Mass Air Flow sensor, and an intake temperature sensor or some combination of other sensors, and the computer uses these sensors to figure out how much fuel it needs to squirt out at any given time. In other words, the facilities to do this are ALREADY fully automatic and in operation in production cars, which are not even designed with water injection or turbo charging in mind! It's not rocket science, it's been there forever.

      Real world mileage rates, however, won't show that much of a difference. Water injection and turbocharging are all about packing more air into a cylinder. More air means more power, and more power means more fuel, and that means worse mileage. The only way to get the numbers they quoted will be to design engines that operate closer to their peak outputs, at wide open throttle, most of the time. We're talking about a small engine (less than two liters, and closer to one liter, for a start) designed to consistently operate at high boost.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    39. Re:Old by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen generators don't give you 25% more mileage. This does.

      Besides, hydrogen has the wrong attributes for what they're doing. The ethanol cools the chamber and raises the effective octane of the fuel injected a moment later, preventing knock under heavy operating conditions(IE accellerating or dragging a heavy load).

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    40. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait wait wait...you mean to tell me that you own both a TDI Golf and a fierbl..fiero ??

      Blasphemy! Hand the keys to your TDI over right now sir!

    41. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harsh. Apparently someone hasn't been keeping up on Diesel Technology lately. You know it was an Audi Diesel that one the last LeMans right? Apparently someone hasn't been keeping up on the English language lately. You know that 'one' is a number, and not a verb, right?
    42. Re:Old by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      No one wants to have a separate tank that we need to remember to fill-up, and the 10% increase provided by water just isn't enough. This is the same story except it's ethanol, not as easy to find as water, and it's 25% better mpg instead of 10%.

      Which makes no sense at all, since people will drive across town (burning gas the whole way) to buy gasoline that's $0.10 per gallon cheaper (net savings per 10 gallon tank: $1) but they won't put free water, no trip across town, to save $3 per tank? ($3/gallon, 10% of 10 gallons)

      And, saving 25% is about the difference in fuel economy between my full-sized, 8-seater van (for the wife and 6 kids) and my much smaller, 5-seater getabout Saturn SL2. (22 MPG vs 30 MPG Hwy) I'd spend a buck or so for that.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    43. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      Good catch on the type-o. An interesting mistake to have made, I must have been distracted at the time.

      As for the other anon coward... My eyes are currently set on the EU/Aust 2.0l VW/Audi TDI with the DSG tranny for the next engine in the Fiero. The big hold up there is money... I can go to any local junk yard and pull out a running 2.8-3.4 or 350 block for $100. Coming up with a 1.9 TDI from a junked car is rare, finding a 2.0 is import only. Dropping $6k on a new engine and tranny might not sit too well with the wife ;)

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    44. Re:Old by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      People will buy oil when the oil light comes on, and if they have excess consumption or a leak, they would be well advised to carry a spare bottle or two. Ethanol can be stocked alongside the oil, as it sounds like a quart will easily get you to the next city, let alone the next gas station. Just make sure the idiot light comes on early, and most people will be able to deal with this.

      Besides, if you were to run out, couldn't the turbo back off until you fix the problem? It doesn't sound nearly as destructive as driving without enough oil or coolant, provided the engine isn't allowed to tear itself apart by preignition. I'm sure the decrease in power could be a problem in certain circumstances, but certainly no worse than a piston seizing up!

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    45. Re:Old by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Hondas, Subarus, what have you, they are all designed (stock) as commuter vehicles. And if you have to turn 7k rpms to get your car off the line, it's not going to hold up to daily driving.

      It may have been a different mindset in 1989, but I drive a Subaru XT6 (manual) daily. Sure in traffic I may never have to get above 3500 rpm, and certainly won't have to sustain it, but I am pretty much obligated to open it up and take it to 5000 in the first three gears to get up to highway speed from one of the damn onramp lights. Then once I'm merged in, 5th gear isn't all that much of an overdrive -- 80 mph is a sustained 3700 rpm. The car is insanely quick off the line (I surprise ricers on a regular basis) but it tops out pretty low. I would not be comfortable sustaining anything over 90 mph, the engine just whines -- and I just got this engine so I'd rather it stay in one piece. A 6th gear would be perfect, the engine produces plenty of power at 3500 rpm.

      Sadly, it does suck on efficiency. It was rated 18/24 when it was new and I'm getting about 20.5 in mixed driving, even with those freeway launches four times a day, so it's not wear and tear. That's just how the car was designed. It's a rally car in an MR2's clothing.

      It also takes three days to get parts, but I knew that would be the case going in. I've only seen three others on the road in the last two years, and they were all 4-cylinder turbos. One of them led to me having a "dude, where's my car" incident at Hollywood Park as I kept coming across this other XT repeatedly while searching for my car. The first time, I even tried to open the door and get in. It took me 40 minutes to find my car! Half the people who see it tell me "I always wanted one of those when they were new", but they weren't cheap then.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    46. Re:Old by misleb · · Score: 1

      Do you use gentoo by perchance?


      Haha! No, I'm not a ricer. It is a Hyundai, not Honda (Civic).

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    47. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, really old. During the WWII this was done with water and methanol in aeroplanes.

    48. Re:Old by magarity · · Score: 1

      Actually, his name is Hugo
       
      Lately it seems to be 'Heckler'

    49. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rick, Honda's stand up to daily driving just fine spinning over 7k rpms all the time. So do lots of other cars.

    50. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VW also has direct injection coupled with forced induction in its gasoline engines, they're called TSI. They're using small displacement, 1400cc, combined with twin-charging: a small mechanically driven supercharger (a Roots compressor) works in the lower rpm range, and, as the revs climb, an exhaust-driven turbo will start working in parallel with the supercharger, eventually when the engine goes over 3500 rpm a control valve will close and the supercharger stops working, leaving the turbo to do its job. Very smooth engine, no turbo lag, very linear power, 170BHP and 180lb/ft out of a small 1400cc straight-4 with 38MPG. This engine is fitted to the Golf, Golf Plus, Touran and Jetta.

      There's also a 2 liter TSI engine in the works, making around 250BHP, and I think there's also rumours of a 3 liter V6 with 350BHP or thereabouts.

    51. Re:Old by ray-auch · · Score: 1

      Er, no. The combustion will be higher pressure, which will give more NOx - just like TDI diesel engines.

    52. Re:Old by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 2, Informative

      Erm, I have a Diesel Jaguar X-Type (Yes a Diesel Jaguar, I am from the UK)..

      Despite its "lower" Horsepower figures, and so on, in the Real World it competes well with Larger Petrol Engines. The main reason? Its Torque is available very low, and remains constant throughout. This is what is needed in the real worl, not nessasarily high RPMs, but sufficient power at ALL RPMs. Most 4 cyl petrol cars I have driven only start providing real Torque at 4000rpm, and peak at about 5500, running out of steam at 7000rpm, increasing cylinder count can improve the point at which the torque arrives, but lowers the overall torque output, compared to a similar displacement, lower cylinder engine.

      My Diesel, starts providing torque at 1500 reaching max at 1800/1900, and remaining at that high point up to its max rpm of 4500rpm. Combined with an appropriately built 6 speed Gearbox, It certainly doesn't feel like I am about to run out of RPMs whilst driving.

      And all this power, does not come at the expense of fuel economy, I have been able to get nearly 60 Mpg, on a motoway at 60mph, and nearly 75 to 80 mpg in the slipstream of an Articulated Lorry (Semi-Truck for US folks).

      MAkes you think, diesel has come a long way since the old days, and is a very popular option here in Europe.

      --
      Have a nice day!
    53. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty up on stuff in the automotive world, though not as much as when I was building a race car. I think that you should read this article before you assume that a diesel engine can beat a gasoline engine every time - it is more complicated than that, and Le Mans is a special kind of race.

      I happen to think that diesels are fine for daily drivers - but unless the rules are tilted in diesel's favor (as in Le Mans), I wouldn't build a race car with one. In general, more power-to-weight is better, even if the torque is not as nice.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    54. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I think diesels are a great match for daily drivers. The fuel is more energy-dense, both by weight and by volume, contributing to it's better MPG figures. Of course, it takes about 25% more crude to make a gallon of diesel, so the "efficiency" gain is largely imaginary. The other nice thing about diesel is that the torque comes much lower, so you don't have to drive like a formula racer to get comfortable performance with a relatively low-displacement engine.

      The problems with diesels are the weight and the up-front cost. In the US, the up-front cost doesn't get recouped as quickly as in Europe since our diesel costs about the same as gasoline. You must have fewer taxes on diesel in Europe compared to your gasoline, because there's no technical reason for it to be cheaper (though I'll concede that there could be some economic reason).

      All that said, a gasoline engine of the same weight and cost stuck in your car would blow your car away in any race except pure range, and range could be extended with a larger tank :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    55. Re:Old by e2d2 · · Score: 1

      How often do you see someone towing their boat trailer uphill, really, not in a commercial?

      Uh, everytime they pull the boat out of the water it's up hill. Otherwise they'd be under water ;)

    56. Re:Old by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Exactly the reason the railroads have been using "hybrid" drives for a long time.

      This is not new. Turbocharging, direct injection and ethanol injection? Daimler-Benz was doing all that in the 1930's.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    57. Re:Old by CannedTurkey · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the other thing they are doing is raising compression, which will use less fuel.

      --
      Ingredients: Turkey, Mechanically Separated Turkey, Water, Salt, Flavour.
    58. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      I made no such assumption, but "every race" is hardly winnable by any single engine type. Gasoline combustion engines (and diesels too) can not compete in the 1/4 mile with Ethanol. Each type of race has its own goals and different tools to best reach those goals.

      If a consumer is looking for a car that packs a solid punch performance whys, has lower maintenance fees, and will last longer than typical consumer vehicles, and gets significantly better fuel-mileage, then yes, Diesels are the obvious choice. But once you get into the pro/race market, cars become so specialized that other factors take precedence (ie: horse power over torque, power to weight ratio, RPM band, etc...)

      As for that link you posted, it was informative as too the rule differences, but the rest of it was some armchair BS. And as for the rules, I'm not surprised by them. If you're going to run the Iditarod with a snowmobile instead of sled dogs, you're going to have different rules applied.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    59. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that packs a solid punch performance whys

      Why what?

      The word you're looking for is either "-wise" or "performancewise". Although I believe the former is more correct ("performance-wise").

    60. Re:Old by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      But here's the real deal: The primary purpose of water injection is to cool the air as it enters the intake manifold via evaporation. Water injection works just like a swamp cooler.

      Except, well, that's not true.

      The primary purpose of water injection is to cool the cylinder. It does this by entering the combustion chamber in a mostly-liquid state - it's just been sprayed and atomized, it hasn't evaporated yet. Inside the chamber it is converted from a liquid to a vapor. Because you are changing state, there is a lot of heat energy absorbed.

      More than that, however, most cars with electronic fuel injection have a Mass Air Flow sensor, and an intake temperature sensor or some combination of other sensors, and the computer uses these sensors to figure out how much fuel it needs to squirt out at any given time. In other words, the facilities to do this are ALREADY fully automatic and in operation in production cars, which are not even designed with water injection or turbo charging in mind! It's not rocket science, it's been there forever.

      Not really. Also, most cars being made today seem to have a Mass Air Pressure sensor. MAF is waning and MAP is continuing to proliferate. MAP is superior because it can give you an idea of engine load (it doesn't just measure airflow, it measures pressure/vacuum.)

      But let's talk about the MAF since we're here. Then we'll talk about the knock sensor. The MAF typically works in one of two ways. Either there is a dual hot wire system in which the current through two hot wires, one in the path of the intake air and one not so much in it, or there is a "thin film" type sensor that accomplishes much the same goal without a separated reference. Either way the idea is that the intake air cools the sensor and based on the amount of cooling you can determine how much air enters the system. They are typically accompanied by an Intake Air Temperature sensor (hence IAT) because on their own they are not very accurate. The IAT is usually just a thermistor, and is often found in the airbox.

      If you inject water, you inject it AFTER the MAF, which is itself typically immediately after the air filter. Thus the MAF knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about your water injection. But because its main contribution to the process is reducing cylinder temperatures, this is fairly irrelevant.

      A MAP sensor doesn't know any more about it, of course.

      Now, the knock sensor is either a make/break sensor or a piezo sensor. Either way it detects vibrations. It's supposed to only detect vibrations in a certain direction. But the moral of the story is that it is a limiting factor, and not a very good one. Because we don't know just how bad the engine is knocking, we don't know just how far we have to back off the timing (the usual method) to stop it from happening. Of course, by using direct injection, we can more or less eliminate knock anyway because if there's no mixture sitting around to precombust... it won't do it.

      Finally, OBD-II vehicles (and possibly others) can detect misfires, and even determine which cylinder it's happening in. They accomplish this by having a sensor on each head (a "cam position sensor") and a sensor on the crank as well. they know which cylinder is firing, and they know when the cams and crank are [ever so slightly] out of sync. This is actually the only way the car has to find out precisely what is occurring inside of the engine, because it has no other way to even know if combustion has occurred. There's no combustion sensor.

      The last sensor we should talk about is the O2 sensor. This is the one that does most of the tuning that you attribute to the MAF. When it is heated, oxygen ions passing across it generate a current flow. The voltage is higher when the mixture is lean (less O2 burned, more ions) and lower when the mixture is rich. The O2 sensor is used from the time it heats up, and any time you're not at wide-open throttle (WOT). At WOT a tab

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    61. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I happen to agree that diesels make a lot of sense as day-to-day drivers. Especially while diesel is on parity or cheaper than gasoline. I don't think that diesel will stay cheap, however, if more diesel cars are sold. In Europe, gasoline is taxed higher - which makes diesel more attractive. It will be interesting to see how diesels do in the US market once the cleaner "low-sulfur" fuel is available.

      In any case, getting more efficiency out of gasoline engines is still very good. It would be nice to get the efficiency of a diesel with the performance of gasoline. Use the extra power to either use a smaller engine or get more horsepower out of existing power plants.

      I didn't mean to make it sound like diesel fuel is inferior to gasoline, but the diesel cycle requires a high compression ratio, which limits RPM, which limits power. Run any kind of fuel in a diesel-cycle engine and you will run into this limitation. Similarly, it does not really matter if you use gasoline (which contains alcohol) or some other fuel in an engine with an ignition system - it will simply be able to churn out more power because of it's lower compression ratio. For the same reason, a lower compression ratio engine will also not be as efficient. In general, if you are building a race car, efficiency isn't your primary concern. This is true in nearly every race that I can think of, even endurance races (because you can pit). Le Mans was special because there were different rules in place for different engines. They really should have separate classes if they are going to do that, IMHO, but they presumably know what they are doing. Indeed, they are reducing the size of the diesel's fuel tank this year to make it reflect the energy content of the fuel. In a passenger car, you have to balance initial cost, running cost, aesthetics, performance, etc... diesel becomes more attractive to certain buyers.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    62. Re:Old by r.muk · · Score: 1

      The combustion will be higher pressure, which will give more NOx - just like TDI diesel engines.

      Umm, I work in a R&D centre in India which designs and builds agricultural diesel engines to meet USEPA Off-Road Tier-III emission standards. Combustion pressures have nothing (or very little) to do with NOx. Temperature and abundance of oxygen have everything to do with NOx. Cooling the combustion reduces NOx. Reducing oxygen by recirculating exhaust gases reduces NOx. But of course NOx is not as big a deal for gasoline (we call it petrol) engines as for diesel engines - and the latter are what I'm more familiar with.

    63. Re:Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ethanol doesn't save any fuel at all. It allows the engine to get more power. The savings comes from using a smaller lighter engine and still getting lots of power. If you fail to fill the tank, the engine would have to run in some kind of degraded mode. I'm sure that would be enough motivation for most people (you wouldn't want this engine if it wasn't for the power).

    64. Re:Old by McNihil · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't mind retrofitting my engine with this if it indeed increased fuel efficiency by 25% and put a "Greener Car" sticker on it. 25% is a lot and actually worth it.

    65. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      "Especially while diesel is on parity or cheaper than gasoline."

      Diesel has been pretty stable at around premium +$0.10 around here. But seeing as how my diesel gets 44mpg (real life average) and has just as much torque as my Fiero (which gets about 20mpg), I'm fine with that premium.

      "I don't think that diesel will stay cheap, however, if more diesel cars are sold."

      It's a balancing act. The Trucking industry (ie: the back bone of the consumer nation) depends on Diesel, so there is a lot of pressure on the refineries to keep diesel prices down. Also, you can get more diesel per barrel out of crude than you can gasoline. And finally, there are realistic ways to develop significant quantities of bio-diesel. One of the big fuel industries that is just getting started is coal plant algae farms. Given the US's dependency (and mass possession) of coal, this technology is a double win: It cleans up our power production systems AND creates a fuel that can be used in existing diesel engines. But yes, if in 2008 20 million consumers trade in their Gas burning cars for Diesels in the US, there would be infrastructure problems and price hikes. But Supply and Demand will with all likelihood make the conversion more gradual.

      "It will be interesting to see how diesels do in the US market once the cleaner "low-sulfur" fuel is available."

      We've had low-sulfur diesel for years. The new stuff is 'Ultra low-sulfur'. I don't remember the exact proportions of PPM sulfur, but it's a good drop off. The big reason for the change is emissions though. LSD will clog and kill the 2007 and newer diesel catalytic converters. The ULSD takes a little bit more to refine, and loses a bit of its lubricity, but that can easily be corrected with a 5% bio-diesel blend. BD has much higher lubricity than LSD/ULSD and a significantly higher cetane rating.

      "high compression ratio, which limits RPM, which limits power."

      Uhh, high compression ratios do not limit RPMs. Rotating mass and valve train limit RPMs. Heck Indy cars turn 10k RPMs and run upwords of 16:1 compression. Dragsters run super low compression (6.5:1) but make up for it with supercharges putting out 50+psi. There's a calculation you can do to change boost pressure into effective compression, I can't remember the specific math, but I'm pretty sure 50psi would put the effective compression well over 10:1.

      "Run any kind of fuel in a diesel-cycle engine and you will run into this limitation."

      The primary rpm limitation of diesels (so far as I know) is just the shear mass of the rotating assembly. If you ever get a chance, lay a diesel connecting rod next to a gas one.

      "In general, if you are building a race car, efficiency isn't your primary concern."

      Hardly! Look at Nascar, HP limits, plate limits, body limits... The whole point of Nascar is to make each car (power performance wise) identical. That gives you 3 chances to shine: 1) Driver skill, 2) Pit skill, 3) Efficiency. If you can pull an entire race on one less pit stop than everyone else, you just bought yourself a free lap.

      I'm not saying the Gas engines are worthless or anything, just that they are inferior to Diesel engines in the vast majority of scenarios.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    66. Re:Old by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      Whoever wrote the article doesnt understand why SUVs and trucks have big engines. Its not because they are powerful, its because they need lots of torque.

      Lots of torque can also be accomplished with a smaller turbocharged engine, with a diesel or with a hybrid drivetrain. Engines in American cars are that big mainly due to inertia/boneheadedness of the companies that make them.

    67. Re:Old by jafac · · Score: 1

      What killed water injection was the corrosive effect it had on steel parts (especially exhaust components).

      However; that issue was largely overblown. There is enough water in most car exhaust from the burning of normal gasoline (a hydrocarbon, any hydrocarbon + O2 => H2O and CO2) - that a recovery system should be feasible, so nobody would even have to fill a water-injection tank.

      On the other hand, VW was working on a Urea-based catalytic converter to remove Nitrogen Oxides from diesel exhaust; which involved the periodic filling of a tank with Urea (the main non-water component of urine). As a maintenance point, I think that would be far more onerous than an Ethanol fill-up.

      But at the end of the day - what would sell this to consumers?
      If this system truly offered a +25% efficiency, and if we taxed carbon output (like they're proposing in Europe) - people would gladly fill up a water, ethanol, or urea tank, to avoid paying extra tax.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    68. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Also, you can get more diesel per barrel out of crude than you can gasoline. Actually, it's the other way around! It takes about 25% more crude to make diesel than gasoline, which is why I was saying that the perceived increase in fuel efficiency is partially false. A diesel is still more efficient due to it's high compression ratio. It is also true that it seems to be easier to make bio-fuels that are like diesel rather than gasoline, though it's also true that things like alcohol and hydrogen will run in slightly modified gasoline engines, so I don't know whether one engine type or the other really has a better claim to being "alternative fuel friendly".

      Uhh, high compression ratios do not limit RPMs. You are absolutely right - I was trying to oversimplify for the sake of shortening the discussion, and I was not aware that you were so familiar with engines (though I should have known from your other comments). The reason that diesels have so much rotating mass compared to gasoline engines is that they typically have a large stroke. There's not too much you can do about this that can't also be applied to engines with an ignition system. Take my original statement to apply to un-boosted engines.

      From TFA, one of the things that I am interested in seeing is how much they have to beef up the engine in order to achieve a higher boost. I wonder how much the gasoline engine that they build will start to take on the disadvantages of the diesels.

      The whole point of Nascar is to make each car (power performance wise) identical. Indeed they are mostly identical - including their fuel efficiency. If one of the teams started to use a technique that saved gas, they'd outlaw it. Using a diesel in NASCAR is out of the question because it would violate the rules.

      I'm not saying the Gas engines are worthless or anything, just that they are inferior to Diesel engines in the vast majority of scenarios. Wow. I'll take any gasoline powered sports car over any diesel powered sports car of the same weight and price any day. I don't care what the race is - autocross, oval laps, drag. For a daily driver, I can't wait for the clean diesel to show up. I'd love to have a car that'll get 500,000 miles on it before it dies - though I presume everything else will go at 100-200k, just like today. Diesel hybrids are another interesting (if expensive) concept.
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    69. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      "Actually, it's the other way around! It takes about 25% more crude to make diesel than gasoline"

      Interesting, I'll have to look into that, I could have sworn that it was the other way around.

      "though it's also true that things like alcohol and hydrogen will run in slightly modified gasoline engines"

      The word "run" is key in that sentence. A straight ethanol burning engine can run stronger and more efficiently than a traditional gasoline engine, but... A hybrid (flex fuel) or converted gasoline engine will run with less power and efficiency than an engine designed for the fuel it is burning. Ethanol CAN be efficient if you crank the compression ratio up to the 16:1 area, or if you are running 10:1 compression with a good amount of boost. But if you take a typical gas burning 9:1 compression engine and make it burn e85 your gas mileage will drop and the power will plummet. I think Ethanol has a future in our transportation market, but not as a flex fuel.

      "The reason that diesels have so much rotating mass compared to gasoline engines is that they typically have a large stroke."

      Not true,

      1.9l TDI:
      Diesel Engine
      Output 89hp @ 4000rpm
      Max Torque 202 @ 1900
      Number of cylinders: 4
      Capacity: 1896 cm3
      Stroke: 95.5mm
      Cylinder Bore: 79.5mm
      Comp Ratio: 19.5

      3400:
      Gas Engine
      Output 185hp @ 5200
      Max Torque 210 @ 5200
      Number of cylinders: 6
      Capacity: 3400 cm3
      Stroke: 92mm
      Cylinder Bore: 84mm
      Comp Ratio: 9.5

      The diesel engine has a 3.5mm longer stroke, but its pistons are 4.5mm smaller. Yet it's rotating mass is significantly larger due to the the heft of the parts needed to stand up to the 19.5:1 compression ratio. The two engines have nearly identical torque ratings, but at vastly different RPMs. If you were to put these two engines in identical (consumer) cars with appropriate gearing, the Diesel would launch easy and faster, would last longer, and would get significantly better gas mileage.

      "Wow. I'll take any gasoline powered sports car over any diesel powered sports car of the same weight and price any day. I don't care what the race is - autocross, oval laps, drag."

      Thus the reason I said the "vast majority". Race cars is a very very insignificant portion of the total usage of vehicles in the world. But, to chime in on Diesel's behalf, not only did they win the LeMans, but the worlds fastest Pickup Truck is a Banks powered Diesel and last time I was following the rally circuit there were a number of cars running TDI engines.

      "For a daily driver, I can't wait for the clean diesel to show up."

      They're already here. The 2006 TDIs diesels produce less of every type of emission per mile driven than Gas engines. The 'dirty' thing that most people associate with Diesels is soot. Soot is basically unburnt/partially burn fuel, you get enriching the air:fuel ratio with out advancing the injection of fuel (or increase the fuel to the point where you can't advance the inject enough to compensate). Stock from the factory, TDI's are so fuel starved that you have to try pretty hard to get any noticeable amount of soot from them. Sure, if you stick a stage 2 chip and injectors on one with out upgrading the turbo, it'll look like a dump truck any time you hit the gas, but it'll have some balls to it. The new 2k8 Diesels are all switching to Common Rail Injection (or PPD for a few performance models) and introducing a new particulate filtering system. Common Rail Injection has already shown that it can be more efficient than the current Pump Duse systems, so that'll be a welcome change.

      As for longevity, my Mother-inlaw bought a VW Rabbit new in the 70s. My wife learned to drive on it in the 90's. They sold it around 2000. In 2k5 we went out to get groceries and we saw it sitting in the parking lot. Same faded old bumper stickers and body damage. My wife actually bumped into the current owner again a while later and they chatted for a bit. Other than a new windshield wiper system (stock was one of those crappy vacuum systems) it was still driving just fine.

      I wish my Fiero held up that well, I'm on my 3rd engine now. Although I think I push it a little harder than that old Rabbit. ;)

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    70. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I don't dispute anything you typed, but there is one thing you are ignoring: cost.

      The two engines that you compared are in completely different classes. GM's circa 1980 "value" engine, complete with pushrods, can be purchased for maybe $1500 rebuilt. In contrast, the TDI is a mid-nineties tech marvel, complete with dual overhead cams and a turbochanger, that would cost 2 - 3 times as much rebuilt. If you give me the same budget and weight limitations, I can blow the doors off of a TDI with a gasoline engine.

      A killer engine to put up against your TDI:

      K23A1 (From the 2007 Acura RDX)
              Turbocharged
              Displacement: 2300 cc (acura.com)
              Compression: 8.8:1 (acura.com)
              Power: 240 hp @ 6000 rpm (SAE net)
              Torque: 260 ftlbf @ 4500 rpm (SAE net)
              Redline: 6800
              Bore: 86 mm
              Stroke: 99 mm

      That little nightmare would run circles around any similarly sized diesel. Put that thing in your Fiero and you'd have a very dangerous vehicle... not that you'd need to go so crazy. Take a stock 2.0 liter engine out of a Civic and throw a turbo on it and you will give any diesel of the same weight a run for it's money.

      I know that low or mid-range torque is very important, and is an advantage of diesels, but raw power can also be a huge advantage. Given weight constraints, diesels will never compete when power is what is needed.

      That said, I don't currently have any cars (I'm in Manhattan), but my last two were a Chevy Blazer and a Saturn SC1 - so a diesel would be very welcome! The Saturn already got 40 MPG - I can only imagine what it could have done with a diesel. Probably 60 easy. And it was already slow. The only problem with a diesel in that car would be that it already handled like a front-heavy pig - I'm not sure it could deal with any more weight up there.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    71. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      "That little nightmare would run circles around any similarly sized diesel... Take a stock 2.0 liter engine out of a Civic and throw a turbo on it and you will give any diesel of the same weight a run for it's money."

      Sure, but for how long? If you need to be launched off the line at 4k RPMs to be in the powerband, you're going to be going through clutches in a hurry (or what ever the next weakest link is). Also, I wouldn't put that engine up against the 1.9, I would put it up against a 2.0 TDI. The new 2.0 TDI turn 170hp and ~250lbs/ft @ 1800 rpm. I could launch that thing at peek torque all day long and still drive it for 100k miles before replacing the clutch. Throw a few mods on there (chip + injectors) and you're looking at closer to 240hp and 350 lbs/ft.

      "I know that low or mid-range torque is very important, and is an advantage of diesels, but raw power can also be a huge advantage. Given weight constraints, diesels will never compete when power is what is needed."

      Horse Power is just a calculation of force (torque) at a speed. It is an advantage only if your gear ratios are set up to use it. The vast majority of consumer auto tranny are geared for daily drivers, where an engine that has a power band in the 3.5k-8h range is incredibly inefficient and hard to drive.

      "And it was already slow."

      That's the thing, my Golf isn't that slow of a car. I drove a Camry once that got over 30 mpg... it was god aweful slow. I felt like I was risking my life trying to merge onto I95 just south of DC. The Golf does 0-60 in about 11 seconds, 1/4 mile in 17 seconds. Which is far from blazing, but a heck of a lot better than the anything else in the 40-50+ mpg range for fuel economy.

      "The only problem with a diesel in that car would be that it already handled like a front-heavy pig - I'm not sure it could deal with any more weight up there"

      The Golf is a bit nose heavy, she'll understeer if you push her hard enough, but it's pretty reasonable. It doesn't compete with the fiero, but it handles well enough to keep the tires between the lines even for spirited driving.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    72. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      But all those mods that you make to a diesel to make it competitive will cost more money. Spend that same money on the gasoline engine and you will also get performance gains... it's a moving target. I picked a larger gasoline engine because it is lighter than the diesels. I can get more displacement for the same weight from a gasoline engine. If you want to move up the size of the diesel to match the gasoline, you will increase the weight of the car. This will generally harm performance.

      Anyway, for daily drivers, I agree that diesels look very promising. Hopefully the cost will come down when they introduce the lower-sulfur fuel. It is currently expensive to meet US emissions standards with a diesel because of the sulfur - it kills catalytic converters, for instance. I'm willing to take a hit in performance for a more practical, efficient, longer-lasting car. Don't expect the same from buyers of sports cars, though! Expect to see them marketed as an alternative to the hybrids.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    73. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      The weight difference isn't that huge. The 2.0l TDI is 40kg heavier than the 1.8l gas turbo engine. That's right around 88lbs. The old 1/4 calculation is 100lbs = 0.1 sec off your times. So I would hardly say that the extra weight of the diesel is going to greatly compromise power performance. The extra engine weight may effect handling though, but that can be corrected through engine placement and a weight balanced design. Or in my case, switching from a 3.4l V6 with an auto tranny to a 1.9l TDI w/ DSG will have no major effect on the total weight of my car.

      "Spend that same money on the gasoline engine and you will also get performance gains... it's a moving target."

      I can take a 1.9l TDI and for under $600 push it up to a stage 2 mod (chip, injectors) and see 125hp and 265lbs/ft At the wheels on a Dyno. Short of nitrous, there's not much you can do to a gas engine for that low of a price to get that kind of a gain. And nitrous isn't exactly easy on the engine.

      The emissions issue is still the fuel issue. The 2007 light duty diesel engine have systems that reduce particulate exhaust, but you are correct, the LSD fuel will clog those systems. In November 2006 the conversion to ULSD began, and by the end of October 2007 you will no longer be able to buy LSD at any pump in the US. That's the reason for the complete lack of light duty diesels being sold this year, the EPA dropped two of the emission bins, but the fuel distribution hadn't caught up yet.

      As for marketing, absolutely, they will be touted for their environmental friendliness, their good gas mileage, and acceptable performance. But for an insignificant investment, a Golf will still have all of those benefits, and be faster (in street driving) than most of the other commuter cars.

      If someone wanted to, they could design a diesel engine that had performance characteristics more appreciated by the performance car market, but you would lose some of the other benefits of it being a diesel and there is a huge social stigma about Diesels in the US. End result would be that the (US) sales would never make up for the investment in design and tooling that went into making it. In Europe it may work though. You can get a 2.0l TDI with twin turbos that pushes some crazy numbers in a Golf on the other side of the pond.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    74. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I can take a 1.9l TDI and for under $600 push it up to a stage 2 mod (chip, injectors) and see 125hp and 265lbs/ft At the wheels on a Dyno. Short of nitrous, there's not much you can do to a gas engine for that low of a price to get that kind of a gain. And nitrous isn't exactly easy on the engine. Of course, the TDI costs more initially, so you'd have a little more money than $600 to work with on the gasoline side.

      The 2.0L TDI is an impressive car, no doubt. Of course, the GTI will kill in in a straight line, but the TDI is quite competitive when it comes time to pass someone. I also like the way that a diesel pulls you consistently with a more-or-less constant acceleration. The only thing is that I'm not sure I could ever afford (well, justify) the TDI :( My brother's Golf was my favorite small car for a long time, but it was just a cheap one.
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    75. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      The TDI package is like $1500 if I recall correctly. I put probably 15,000 miles on the car in my first year, averaged right around 43mpg, for about 350g of diesel. At an average around $2.60 that's $650 in fuel costs. A comparable performing Gas car (Mazda 3) gets about 30mpg average. Over the same 15,000 miles you'd need 500g of fuel. Gas has been around $2.40 for a while now, which puts your annual fuel costs at $1200. Provided fuel prices don't change, you'll have paid off the difference in initial cost in under 3 years. If (when) fuel prices do increase, you'll pay off the difference even sooner.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    76. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      That's not the price differential for the twin turbo 2.0L :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    77. Re:Old by RingDev · · Score: 1

      True, but if you're in the market for the twin turbo all wheel drive sportsline, you are most likely not in the market for a Golf. A more comparable package at that point would be the Subaru STI or other vehicles of the like. My knowledge in that area is a bit weaker though.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    78. Re:Old by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I like the Golf because I'm tall, and the Japanese are apparently not interested in designing a car for a 6'3" person. I don't fit in Subarus, but I fit nicely in Volkswagens - especially now that they all have these high roof lines.

      Still, I crammed myself into a Saturn for a year because I found it for $3500 with only 50,000 miles on it! I was still more comfortable in my gas-guzzling Blazer, but my wife drove that for her 5-minute commute while I took the fuel-sipper on my 40-minute commute. I was looking at an old 80's-era Mercedes diesel, just for kicks, when I found the Saturn.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  4. Rudolph Diesel by LiENUS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Congratulations You've discovered the same thing as Rudolph Diesel except that you don't quite have it right. You don't need to use ethanol or port injection ditch both of those and use good ol fashioned vegetable oil. 0 preignition and you can turn the boost way up on a tiny engine.

    1. Re:Rudolph Diesel by JesseL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      0 preignition and you can turn the boost way up on a tiny engine. It's actually more like 100% preignition in a diesel, but they're built to withstand it without grenading.
      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    2. Re:Rudolph Diesel by LiENUS · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's actually more like 100% preignition in a diesel, but they're built to withstand it without grenading. By design its impossible for diesel to have pre-ignition unless somethings wrong. so its 0% preignition, there is however 100% detonation which is a completely different thing. Pre-ignition is where your intake charge and fuel mixture ignite before your spark plug fires. Since diesels have no spark plug there is no spark plug firing event however intake charge also lacks fuel. So it can't ignite before it is supposed to. The fuel is injected after the compression stroke has already been made and the fuel ignites as soon as it injects, thus 0% preignition 100% detonation.

    3. Re:Rudolph Diesel by compro01 · · Score: 1

      0 preignition and you can turn the boost way up on a tiny engine.

      zero preignition? Diesels run on preignition. they don't have spark plugs.

      still, i am a large fan of diesels, now if only i could figure out why diesel is 8 cents a litre more expensive than gas at the moment...

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    4. Re:Rudolph Diesel by LiENUS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Preignition is ignition before its supposed to happen. It's impossible when your cylinder is filled with nothing but air. They run on Detonation, not preignition.

    5. Re:Rudolph Diesel by njchick · · Score: 1

      Diesel fuel is more expensive by volume, but not by mass. It's heavier.

    6. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      now if only i could figure out why diesel is 8 cents a litre more expensive than gas at the moment...

      Diesel is a bit more expensive than regular gas here, too, but my diesel Jetta gets 50% better mileage (no exaggeration) than my previous (gas) Jetta did, so I'm still coming out *way* ahead.

    7. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Prune · · Score: 1

      Since you seem to know your stuff, can you explain how the two cycle glow plug engines on remote controlled hobby stuff work? I never found a good description, and I always have trouble priming the damn thing properly.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    8. Re:Rudolph Diesel by xmundt · · Score: 1

      Greetings and Salutations.
                THe cost of diesel is always a challenging thing to track down. Since it is (essentially) the sludge left over after lighter components are cracked out, one DOES think it should be cheapler. I believe that much of the cost stems from political issues - including the fact that MOST of the diesel vehicles in America are in the $40K area, and I am sure that the refiners figure that anyone that can afford a $40K+ vehicle will not whine about a few pennies more pre gallon for fuel.
                I should point out that the cost of fuel MAY be one of the factors that destroys the American economy. It is a hidden expense for ALL consumer goods, and one that hurts all of us equally. After all, the folks that drive all those veggies across country are not absorbing the costs of fuel...they are passing them along to their customers...and those customers not only pay but crank it up a bit more each time, until it gets to us, the consumers, as quite an inflated amount.
              Pleasant dreams.
              Dave Mundt

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    9. Re:Rudolph Diesel by vought · · Score: 1

      Preignition is ignition before its supposed to happen.

      To be more precise, preignition is when the fuel/air mixture begins a flame propagation from one area (usually a dirty piston crown); the spark fires and burns any remaining mixture; in essence, there are two closely-spaced explosions, but it is NOT detonation.

    10. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      including the fact that MOST of the diesel vehicles in America are in the $40K area

      Where do you get that fact from? I'm not saying it's wrong, but it seems like almost all the diesels I see on the road are either fairly modern VW Jettas or Golfs, with the occasional Passat thrown in, or they're an ancient Mercedes. You'd be hard-pressed to find a $40K Jetta. :)

      This is definitely regional - Seattle is riddled with modern VWs, whereas the midwest (Kansas City, specifically) has a decided lack of them. Very strange.

    11. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I just topped up my little diesel car.. cost me £30. Last time I topped up is November... winter really gets the bills down :p

      The thing gets about 68mpg normally and according to the official stats could get 75mpg if I drove a bit better.

      So although diesel costs more per gallon (due to the huge tax difference in this country - it's taxed more.. used to be taxed less then everyone bought one so the gov. upped the tax to rake in some more cash) you still get a much lower cost per mile running cost.

    12. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 1

      Living in the midwest, you should have some idea just how many ginormous diesel pickup trucks there are on the road. A lot of those are over $40k new.

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    13. Re:Rudolph Diesel by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      It strikes me that running this lean would really boost the NOX production and it seems a waste to throw that away on the catalytic converter. How about a follow on diesel cylinder that runs on the exhaust? Too much extra weight?
      --
      Run on the Sun: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

    14. Re:Rudolph Diesel by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      Well, I used to live in the midwest, but I'm in Seattle. Here, we have lots of SUVs, none of which are diesel, as far as I know.

      I just found out that the new FedEx trucks are actually diesel-electric hybrids that get about 30mpg, which is pretty cool.

    15. Re:Rudolph Diesel by KC7JHO · · Score: 1

      The glow plug in all so equipped diesel engines are required to bring the combustion chamber up to a temp high enough to allow the fuel to detonate when injected. In large (i.e. Over the road trucks) Diesels the combustion chamber compression presser is high enough to achieve this temp. In (some) smaller engines (i.e. hobby, some car/light truck engines) the engine is built small and lite and cannot generate the presser with out a little help from a glow plug. In older GMC 6.2ltr Diesels the operator had to hold the "Glow Plug" button for ~30 sec before trying to start the engine, however if the temp outside was high, or the engine was already warm, an engine in good condition would usually start with out it.
      The thing is, every engine make is different, some smaller engines never reach the required compression and require the glow plug to always preheat the fuel instead of the combustion chamber, while others would burst a glow plug if used during normal engine operation because it was exposed to the presser of the combustion chamber and when "glowing" the material it is made of usually was much weaker in this state.
      As for priming the engine you speak of, I have never tried dealing with a diesel so small, however I would start by assuring fuel delivery to the injector and then setting the glow plug for 10-30 sec before attempting to start the engine. That is... If I had no owner/users manual and could find none on the internet;)

    16. Re:Rudolph Diesel by default+luser · · Score: 1

      Why not look at Wikipedia's description on how it works?

      Model engines and glow plugs

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

    17. Re:Rudolph Diesel by compro01 · · Score: 1

      it used to be about 10 cents cheaper per litre. it went up during the massive spike last summer, and hasn't gone back down for some reason, unlike gas prices, though they just went back up above the magic 1 dollar mark yesterday.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  5. Internal Combusiton? by Reverend528 · · Score: 2, Funny

    This headline made my brain spontaneously combusit.

    1. Re:Internal Combusiton? by atrocious+cowpat · · Score: 1

      This headline made my brain spontaneously combusit.
      It's spelled "healdine", you insensitive cold!
      --
      sig? Oh, that sig...
  6. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Both turbocharging and direct injection are preexisting technologies, and neither looks particularly impressive... by combining them, and augmenting them with a novel way to use a small amount of ethanol, Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine."

    Have those two NOT been previously combined before, or what?

    In any case, triple the power sounds awesome. If real, I want that tech in my motorcycle. As a two stroke.

    1. Re:What? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Mercedes Benz had direct injection on their race cars like back in the mid 50s or so. The problem was you needed about 600 PSI (IIRC) to make it work. If they're increasing the compression ratio, then they're going to need even more.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:What? by cyclopropene · · Score: 1

      Have those two NOT been previously combined before, or what?

      Yes, they have. Especially in diesels (all those Volkswagen TDI's you see around, it stands for Turbo Direct Injection). The standard engine in an Audi A4 (as well as the Volkswagen Passat among others) is now the 2.0T FSI turbo direct injection gasoline engine.

      --
      Shouldn't you be doing something useful?
    3. Re:What? by confused+one · · Score: 1

      This is really a non-problem that was worked out in production direct-injection cars over a decades ago. Many modern diesels use electronic direct injection, which, in a modern diesel (>20:1 compression), requires pressures significantly higher.

  7. Pretty soon, you'll have a turbo Diesel by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

    Just with a spark plug instead. This is similar to water injection and water/methanol injection on a turbo gasoline engine.

    1. Re:Pretty soon, you'll have a turbo Diesel by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can already do alcohol/nitrous injection into a diesel engine for power, and water injection has been fairly common for diesel performance for quite some time now. But because diesels don't have knock (they OPERATE by compression/hotspot ignition) this technology is utterly inapplicable there.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Not the final solution by dal20402 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I suppose my first question is, when the owner inevitably lets the ethanol run out, what happens? Can the engine computer dial down the boost enough to prevent detonation? Or does the engine just have to shut down?

    That aside, it's always great to improve internal-combustion efficiency, but the real solutions will have a more dramatic effect than this. My own view is that the solution should be a plug-in series hybrid with about 60 miles of electric-only range and the ability to run maybe 400 more with the engine providing generator power. This would not seriously compromise the essential attributes of modern cars, while *dramatically* (think 80% or more) improving their fuel economy in many real-world usage patterns.

    Then we should have nuclear power behind all those 220v outlets... and 90% of cars should be much smaller, with people able to obtain bigger trucks for big jobs on demand from time-share or rental companies... a guy can dream, can't he...

    1. Re:Not the final solution by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      When the Ethano runs out, the engine begins to "knock". It ignites before the right time. This decreases fuel efficiancy quite a bit, and could theoretically damage the engine if you did it long enough.

      But as you pointed out, a smart engine should be able to recognize that Knock is occuring. While the computer can not change the size of the cylinders, it could change the amount of fuel/air injected. This would reduce the chance of damage, but severly impair engine performance.

      The rest of your ideas are good, but will take quite some time. Nuclear power still needs both some more advancements and some better press before we begin to truly accept it. (And Russia should shoot anyone that suggets "Our plant is so good we don't need the essential safety feature X" - which is what they said when they decided not to put a containment roof over Chernobyl.)

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    2. Re:Not the final solution by codepunk · · Score: 1

      Yes it is called a knock sensor and they have been in use for years. In most cases the knock lets the computer know it is happening and it will then retard the timing to eliminate the knock. In this case the computer only has to retard the timing and adjust the waste gate to drop the boost pressure to eliminate the knock.

      --


      Got Code?
    3. Re:Not the final solution by Xiph · · Score: 1

      if you'd bother reading TFA you'd realized they did answer that question. You'll need to add more alcohol about as often as you change oil, the lack of oxygen to peoples brains is a much bigger problem

      --
      Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
    4. Re:Not the final solution by ZDRuX · · Score: 1

      I suppose my first question is, when the owner inevitably lets the ethanol run out, what happens? Can the engine computer dial down the boost enough to prevent detonation? Or does the engine just have to shut down?
      Most if not all of today's forced induction (and some naturaly aspirated) cars have knock sensors which will automatically retard the ignition timing when knock shows up, either from too much heat, bad air/fuel mixture, too much combustion chamber pressure, etc.. So yes, you could run out of any sort of "additive" and still have somewhat of an assurance that your engine won't blow up on the way to the store.

      As for the actual post, this is nothing new. This has been used by people "in the know" all the time to increase the ammount of power an engine produces without melting away your pistons by using something called Toluene, which is now a banned substance in the U.S. and Canada, but can still be purchased at some paint supply stores because it's a paint thinner, but apparently has been used to make Meth, or some other type of drug.

      For those interested - "knock" is when the fuel mixture inside your combustion chamber ignites before the piston actually makes it all the way to top, which as you can imagine is *really* bad. You are in fact, trying to compress an explosion while it is igniting, which creates incredibly hot temperatures inside the chamber causing all sorts of nasty stuff. If this last long enough (over the course of months or years if its small enough) it will eventually start chewing away at your piston rings, causing "blow by" which robs your engine of power, makes your oil get into the combustion chamber, smoke starts coming out your tail pipe, and things just go downl hill from there.

      If you wish to make your own "race gas" or want to know how this stuff works and how it has been used for tens of years, visit this FAQ http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
      --
      The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    5. Re:Not the final solution by drgonzo59 · · Score: 1
      Then we should have nuclear power behind all those 220v outlets... and 90% of cars should be much smaller,


      Exactly. During the summer when the grids are already at full capacity it would be a very bad idea to have hundreds of thousands of electric cars charging at the same time. Then you won't pay your hard earned $$$ to BP or Exxon but instead to power companies like Enron. We actually need two things - 1) more energy and 2) a good way to store it (this implies a safe and economical way to distribute it as well...). It would also be nice not to make much of a mess in the process. Nuclear power seems like the way to go. In US they have not build a nuclear power plant in ages instead they burn tons and tons of coal that ironically enough releases a lot more radio-isotopes into the environment than nuclear power plants would, not to mention other more obvious pollutants. Check this link out.

    6. Re:Not the final solution by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      If you'd bother reading my comment, you'd see I was asking about neglectful owners, not anything in TFA. How many of the people you know actually change their oil on time?

      If these were in large-scale use the ethanol *would* run out. Often. My question was whether, when that happens, you get reduced power or your car stops running.

    7. Re:Not the final solution by inviolet · · Score: 1

      I suppose my first question is, when the owner inevitably lets the ethanol run out, what happens? Can the engine computer dial down the boost enough to prevent detonation? Or does the engine just have to shut down?

      Not to worry; for decades now, we've known that water injection can similarly increase the power output (but not the overall efficiency) of an engine.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    8. Re:Not the final solution by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      If you're gonna dream, at least dream of something more idealistic, panacea-like, and less complex. :-)

    9. Re:Not the final solution by amigabill · · Score: 1

      plug-in series hybrid with about 60 miles of electric-only range and the ability to run maybe 400 more with the engine providing generator power.

      And have inductive field charging pads built into parking lot spaces which can be used to recharge the battery without having to plug in a cord. Have some RFID or other form of automatic vehicle and/or account identification which can enable/disable the charging pad depending on payment authorization if it's a commercial charging configuration and to monitor battery health and other interesting data. Could be useful for companies with fleets of such cars so workers don't forget to plug them in between uses, so you don't forget to unplug the thing when you leave and tear something apart or hurt anyone, etc.

      Hopefully this can be considered prior art publication in case some nut job tries to patent the idea and rip us all off later.

    10. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      and 90% of cars should be much smaller,

      Americans would never accept that. You might as well just say "and fairy princesses should fly down from candyland and give us all ponies to ride."

      I think a more realistic possibility is that vehicles will just get much lighter. As an example, if Boeing can make the Dreamliner out of carbon fibre, perhaps it's not that long before we start seing reasonably priced, mass-produced carbon fibre car bodies. There's also reasonably good odds of significant price reduction in titanium and titanium alloys, and aluminium use is becoming more widespread in the automotive industry.

      My ideal "dream" situation? A "grid" transportation system, in which vehicles are networked together without any humans behind the wheel (except "offroad"). electric vehicles which get their power from the road (standing wave transmission, perhaps). Autoconvoying and optimized speeds to greatly reduce traffic, increase road capacity, and reduce wind resistance. With vehicles much lighter from being pure-electric without need for even carrying the power source, high speed "bulletways" with coils of wire embedded in them, so that vehicles with halbach arrays (magnetic arrays with highly lopsided fields -- near double-strength on one side, near zero on the other) can employ "Inductrac" style maglev, eliminating rolling losses and having very little maglev losses at high speeds.

        * Greatly reduced wind resistance and no rolling losses.
        * Still your own, personal vehicle (the profiles would likely be a bit different from present day for optimal convoying, though)
        * Never having to drive. Play, sleep, work, chat, whatever during the trip.
        * Less need for roads eating up cityspace
        * Less traffic
        * Much faster travel, to the degree that airlines would be needed much less often.
        * Much less energy use
        * Independent of oil.
        * No need to even be in your vehicle while it's moving -- automated delivery, automated pickup of your kids or groceries (if the store will load for you), etc.
        * The great economic benefits of travel being automated and fast.
        * Much less space used up downtown for parking, as vehicles can drive themselves to and from less convenient parking without you.
        * No speeding tickets
        * Very few accidents (no human error, no drunk driving, etc)

      The benefits go on, and on, and on. Unfortunately, we have all of our existing infrastructure to deal with. Thankfully, it can be moved towards in stages. First hybrids, then plugin hybrids, then electrics, then grid-power electrics. First radar-assisted braking (like we have now), then wireless transponders to assist traffic, then increasing wireless information exchange and planning. Once vehicles are light enough, all-electric, and are designed for high-speeds with automated operation, inductrac-style maglev becomes realistic for long stretches.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    11. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 1

      I'd expect to see energy charges be more like cell phone charges: your "night" kilowatts are cheaper than your "day" kilowatts, to encourage people to charge their vehicles at night on timers.

      Nuclear provides base generating infrastructure. Unless you have a good way to store vast amounts of power (like hydroelectric -- but that's not exactly environmentally friendly), that doesn't help with the situation of high daytime/summer demand. Solar, on the other hand, would be great if it could be made cheaper. Peak generation in the summer, during the daytime -- what a winner.

      As for your "releases a lot more radio-isotopes" comment, that's not exactly true (not to mention that it treats all radioisotopes the same). Nuclear power, when you include mining, refining and operation, releases more, although not vastly more. However, that's in "ideal circumstances"; it doesn't include accidents. Which are, sadly, more common than one would like. Even CANDUs, which are a rather nice design, have had their share. I have good hopes for the next generation, though. I'm especially interested in lead and lead-bismuth breeders like BREST. Burns U-238, anti-proliferation, automatically entombs material in the event of an accident, can be cooled by natural convection only in case of an emergency, buried underground by design, etc. I even like the fuel they use for it (uranium mononitride). That particular model is kind of in limbo, but there are many others out there that look interesting. Thorium breeders, too -- there are some nice designs in the works.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    12. Re:Not the final solution by Osty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      * Never having to drive. Play, sleep, work, chat, whatever during the trip.

      I'm not sure I'd put that in the "benefit" column. I enjoy driving. What I fear most when people start talking about future transportation technology is that almost everybody assumes that driving is a chore and nobody should have to do it anymore. While it would be great to get the people who don't like driving off the road (the people who eat, read, do their makeup, change clothes, etc all while driving), if the solution involves removing my own ability to drive then I'm against it.

      Note that I didn't say anything about what I would drive. Electric, hybrid, magnetic, petrol, whatever, I'm fine with it as long as I'm allowed to stay in control of my personal vehicle.

    13. Re:Not the final solution by AaronW · · Score: 1

      Most people would recharge their vehicles at night, when there is often a significant excess capacity on the grid. Generators can't quickly ramp up and down the amount of power they generate so there's usually a lot of excess capacity at night. Many articles I have read on the web say that our current infrastructure could easily handle millions of electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles. One advantage is if designed right, the vehicles could help provide additional power to the grid during peak demand times while charging during periods of lower demand since currently there are not many ways to store the significant amount of electricity.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    14. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 1

      I enjoy driving

      Which is why I stated:

      without any humans behind the wheel (except "offroad").

      Nobody would stop you from driving offroad in legal spots. The point would be to not have error-prone, energy-wasting, traffic-causing human drivers interfering with people's daily commutes, errand-runs, package shipments, or cross-country trips. Such people would ruin it for everyone else (~45k people die in America each year from car crashes -- more than breast cancer -- and it disproportionally takes the young). Rather, if someone wants to drive for fun, they should go somewhere to drive for fun. Besides, it'd probably be a lot prettier of a drive than, say, the drive to work. And, because you'd not be spending nearly as much time driving to and from work, you'd have more leisure time that you could spend driving if you so chose to. ;)

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    15. Re:Not the final solution by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      I think the key problem is that if you set up the engine system to assume ethanol is on tap, you are dialing up cylinder pressures (higher compression and/or forced injection) to get some benefit out of it, no different than if you were building an engine to work with race gas.

      This works out great until ethanol doesn't get injected for some reason, at which point your engine has to withstand the pre-ignition (knock) before the knock sensor can detect it and the ecu can dial back your A:F, timing and/or wastegate settings.

      ...and yes, cylinder injection + turboed cars (some with aftermarket methanol injection) have existed for years. In many cases people lose their engines when the injection system fails.

      Most if not all of today's forced induction (and some naturaly aspirated) cars have knock sensors which will automatically retard the ignition timing when knock shows up, either from too much heat, bad air/fuel mixture, too much combustion chamber pressure, etc.. So yes, you could run out of any sort of "additive" and still have somewhat of an assurance that your engine won't blow up on the way to the store.
    16. Re:Not the final solution by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      I like driving too, but the benefits of having driverless highways and arterials are just too great to ignore. I would give up driving on highways if it would get me higher speeds, fewer accidents (by an order of magnitude or more), much greater capacity (as a computer could safely orchestrate much shorter following distances than humans can manage), and no anger from idiots on their cellphones, driving 50 in the left lane, or doing wheelies on their motorbikes in rush-hour traffic.

      The system would not make it to secondary rural roads or residential streets for years, if ever, because the benefits would be much less significant and would not justify the enormous costs. If you want to drive, you'll be able to go to those locations, or to a track.

      I know I would get all nostalgic about driving everywhere under an automated system, but if it worked as it should there is no way I would go back.

    17. Re:Not the final solution by ZDRuX · · Score: 1

      I think the key problem is that if you set up the engine system to assume ethanol is on tap, you are dialing up cylinder pressures (higher compression and/or forced injection) to get some benefit out of it, no different than if you were building an engine to work with race gas.
      Agreed, unless they decide to start selling this "super fuel" at your local gas station, then we`ll see regular people destroying their motors because Mrs. Smith was too lazy to put any ethanol into her gas tank that day. Which is why this kind of stuff is left to the people who know what they're doing and what purpose this serves, which leads us to the fact that this whole thing is utterly useless.

      This is exactly like Dell coming out and saying that they can now sell you a computer that runs 20% faster for a cheaper price by overclocking, but you have to make sure the water cooler is always working, that the temps. have to be monitored closely, and that no dust can get in and settle on the any of the fans.

      Sure this might be fun for the overclocking geek, but totally useless for the average person who wouldn't utilite this 20% speed increase anyway.
      --
      The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    18. Re:Not the final solution by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      Americans would never accept that. You might as well just say "and fairy princesses should fly down from candyland and give us all ponies to ride."

      I've posted before that I don't see why we just have to accept this and say it will never change.

      People buy large vehicles for two reasons: utility, and "image" (i.e. penis size). (There's also perceived safety, but that is not a valid reason, as no large vehicles except full-size sedans and minivans are actually safer, and those are definitely not the worst fuel and space guzzlers.)

      Only a tiny fraction of those who buy large personal, as opposed to work, vehicles use even close to all of their utility on a daily basis.

      Therefore, if it is convenient (I imagine delivery on order within 20-30 minutes, without a reservation), comfortable, and not too expensive, it seems that Americans ought to be happy to borrow/rent/timeshare large vehicles on the relatively infrequent occasions when they are necessary rather than paying the fuel, parking, and maintenance costs all the time.

      If Americans who are informed about safety don't like such an idea, then, the reason must be penis size.

      If you can make people feel stupid about things they are doing for image, the image value will evaporate overnight. Therefore, I don't think it's hopeless to try to get Americans into smaller cars for their daily commuting and errand-running.

    19. Re:Not the final solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i share your dream. i've thought exactly the same, but never seen it posted anywhere.

    20. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it seems that Americans ought to be happy to borrow/rent/timeshare large vehicles on the relatively infrequent occasions when they are necessary rather than paying the fuel, parking, and maintenance costs all the time

      Do most Americans want to own their house or rent?
      Do most Americans want to own their furniture or rent?
      Do most Americans want to own their TV or rent?
      Do most Americans want to own their computer or rent?

      On and on. People want to own "their stuff". Whether you consider it image or not, it's a basic fact. Ownership makes people feel comfortable. It's also convenient, and America is nothing if not a convenience society.

      "What, walk a block to where the neighborhood cars are parked, just to drive to a store that's five minutes away?"
      "What, have to put all of my baby's stuff in the car after hauling it there, then take out out and haul it back, every trip?"
      "What, have to replace this mirror that I knocked off when I could superglue it back on just fine, because the guy over on 2110 East Maple will throw a fit if I don't?"
      "What, I have to reprogram the radio every time I drive?"

      (and on, and on, and on)

      This is a culture for which driving to pick up pizza is too much work, a culture of TV dinners, a culture in which food companies have started to make peanut butter and jelly in the same jar so that you don't have to open up two jars. And you expect people to put up with *that*? Heh, Good Luck.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    21. Re:Not the final solution by ThousandStars · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Americans would never accept that. You might as well just say "and fairy princesses should fly down from candyland and give us all ponies to ride."

      Americans would and eventually will accept smaller cars, at least as soon as gas prices rise high enough. This could happen through any number of methods, including declining oil production, wars in oil states, or Pigouvian taxes. The latter makes a lot of sense because it would help prevent the first two in a feasible time horizon and with few negative externalities save creating a tax that would probably never die (hence bloating government) and potentially increasing the mass difference between very large and very small cars, leading to additional fatalities when they collide.

      Still, the benefits for both geopolitics and the environment would be enormous. It would also be much simpler to implement than the grandiose and probably error-prone systems like the one you propose.

      We saw a natural example of what happens to auto sales when prices increase two summers ago: SUV sales dropped precipitously and Honda sold even more Civics than it usually does. Prices have a way of making the unthinkable reality, whether Americans will "accept" them or not.

    22. Re:Not the final solution by Bluesman · · Score: 1

      The problem with vehicles becoming lighter is a safety one. Roads are designed with a certain vehicle weight in mind, such that the incline of the road as it curves keeps the car from sliding off of it, even in slippery conditions.

      I love the "grid" driving system though. Never having to drive on a highway again would be a treat.

      And if I had to commute, I'd love to buy a small car. The problem is, I'm 6'2" with long legs, and I don't fit in any of them, because they all try to be a "family car" and cram in some ridiculously undersized back seat.

      I have a car for the family already. Why does nobody make an inexpensive, two-seater, two-door commuter car that a normal sized person would be comfortable driving?

      My wife had a Miata for a while, and I'd drive that whenever I could, even though I had to get out the shoehorn to fit myself in it. Make a slightly larger Miata for a similar price, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    23. Re:Not the final solution by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      My own view is that the solution should be a plug-in series hybrid with about 60 miles of electric-only range and the ability to run maybe 400 more with the engine providing generator power.

      I love this idea, and I'd go so far as to say the solution should use a gas fired stirling cycle engine as a generator rather than an internal combustion engine.

      Then we should have nuclear power behind all those 220v outlets... and 90% of cars should be much smaller

      This is where our opinions diverge. I think natural gas is a better energy source than nuclear, at least until truly viable renewables are available, but then I'm Australian and we don't have existing nuclear infrastructure. We do have large natural gas reserves and perfect conditions for a range of renewable technologies, so the only people who would seriously argue for nuclear power here are either thick, have something to gain or both.

      I'm also reasonably tall and have a family spread over a large part of the South East corner of the continent. When I drive it's usually on weekends and I often do long distances. Small cars shit me to tears, to the point where I refuse to ride in my mothers little hyundai. I certainly don't like spending hours with my knees up around my ears and I tend to drive conservatively, so I'd opt for larger, heavier cars with regenerative breaking that can do longer distances and higher speeds with less wear.

      As for TFA, why on earth do we need another way of keeping (mostly) fossil fuel powered internal combustion engines alive as a technology? I mean really.....

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    24. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 1

      Weight can, of course, be simulated :) Airflow over the vehicle, depending on the vehicle's shape and speed, typically presses it against the ground. Some high performance sports cars could theoretically drive upside down in a long enough tunnel simply due to wind pressure.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    25. Re:Not the final solution by Oscar_Wilde · · Score: 1

      I have a car for the family already. Why does nobody make an inexpensive, two-seater, two-door commuter car that a normal sized person would be comfortable driving?
       
      When the smart fortwo arrives in the U.S.A. you should take a test drive.

      I haven't been in the new model yet but I have been in several of the current fortwos and recently test drove one myself out of curiosity. They have much more interior space than people seem to think and are quite fun to drive. The downside is that they really are only intended for the daily commute and poking about town but if you already have a family car that shouldn't matter. Just don't think of it as being something it's not; it's a small car and will only ever be a small car.

      People trash talk the smart quite a bit but if you've actually been for a few trips in one you'll know that it comes mostly from ignorance.

    26. Re:Not the final solution by jsiren · · Score: 1
      Rei:

      My ideal "dream" situation? A "grid" transportation system, in which vehicles are networked together without any humans behind the wheel (except "offroad"). electric vehicles which get their power from the road (standing wave transmission, perhaps). Autoconvoying and optimized speeds to greatly reduce traffic, increase road capacity, and reduce wind resistance. With vehicles much lighter from being pure-electric without need for even carrying the power source, high speed "bulletways" with coils of wire embedded in them, so that vehicles with halbach arrays (magnetic arrays with highly lopsided fields -- near double-strength on one side, near zero on the other) can employ "Inductrac" style maglev, eliminating rolling losses and having very little maglev losses at high speeds. You do have a clear vision about a transition to more efficient car-based infrastructure. Unfortunately, the worst downside of a car-based infrastructure still remains: that it is fundamentally inefficient. Try moving 1500 people from A to B. You get 300 (~full) to 1000 (~average fill) cars, or 30 buses (à 50 seats), or 5 to 10 subway or light rail vehicles (capacity 150 to 300), or 1 to 2 commuter trains. Light rail vehicles can run nose-to-tail in low-speed areas, subway trains can run 90 seconds apart, and commuter trains can run down to 2 or 3 minutes apart, signalling permitting.

      To phrase it differently: Rush-hour traffic between A and B is 9000 persons per hour. The average car has 1.5 occupants. A light rail train has a capacity of 300 persons. If all the 9000 people take cars, the traffic flow is 9000/1.5=6000 vehicles per hour. If all the 9000 people take light rail, the traffic flow is 9000/300=30 vehicles per hour.

      Another view: do you prefer a large MTU to a small one? Why? What happens if you use a small MTU in a network with heavy traffic?

      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
    27. Re:Not the final solution by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 1

      The SMART (Mercedes) is a reasonably cheap, small, yet reliable car that is small, and economical, and ideal for commuting. IT seats two, and is actually very spacious inside.

      It can almost park anywhere.

      --
      Have a nice day!
    28. Re:Not the final solution by Phleg · · Score: 1

      One problem. What happens when my transmitter or receiver dies? Other cars have no knowledge of my car's presence, or I have no knowledge of theirs. Take your pick. Any fully automated system is still going to have to have a lot of intelligence in the car for avoiding non-networked obstacles, lane following, and driving safely.

      --
      No comment.
    29. Re:Not the final solution by Big_Breaker · · Score: 1

      Well the plug-in hybrids are portable storage. At any given time a huge amount of that portable battery power would be connected to the grid. The cars are charged off peak and used on-peak, more or less. The technology would not necessarily require more power plants or transmission. They would simply soak up the excess capacity off peak - AKA load balancing. It's a shamelssly easy thing to pull off with existing infrastructure.

      If these EEStor batteries can do what the company says, then everyone will want their new car to be a plug-in hybrid. Notice I didn't will people to buy the ecological new thing... they will want to buy it. Why? Efficiency, performance, comfort...

      Really good batteries are all that is missing for electric cars.

    30. Re:Not the final solution by DrFalkyn · · Score: 1

      Well if their transmitter or you're receiver dies there should be very good backup system that can detect cars without a radio signal. Both systems are extremely unlikely to fail at the same time without adequate warning. Also, there should probably always be a special lane for cars that don't have the system or in the cases when the. I think the system will actually start out by being a special lane(like we have now with HOV lnaes) and most of the old cars will be in the standard lanes. When other people see how much faster the cars moving in the special lane are going, they will want the system for their own cars and it will catch on so that more and more lanes will eventually be the automated lanes and the older lanes will be considered "special".

    31. Re:Not the final solution by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      I think a more realistic possibility is that vehicles will just get much lighter. As an example, if Boeing can make the Dreamliner out of carbon fibre, perhaps it's not that long before we start seing reasonably priced, mass-produced carbon fibre car bodies. There's also reasonably good odds of significant price reduction in titanium and titanium alloys, and aluminium use is becoming more widespread in the automotive industry.

      The (European) average vehicle is almost twice as heavy now as it was 25 years ago (compare the Golf I to the Golf V). We're adding crap faster than we can save weight. There are exceptions (Jaguar XK), but notice that that's not exactly an average vehicle.

      New construction materials all have drawbacks: carbon fibre panels don't dent, they shatter. This would massively increase the repair cost, and make it harder to design the car for crash safety.
      Similarly, aluminium is harder to fabricate and repair, and titanium is notoriouly difficult to work with. All of these techniques would make the car a lot more expensive.

    32. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 1

      New construction materials all have drawbacks: carbon fibre panels don't dent, they shatter.

      Manufacturers are already moving away from having the skin bearing load in a crash situation, and are spreading more of the load out on the frame (the "spaceframe" design). For example, look at the plastic panels on Saturns and Pontiacs. They didn't need to bear load, and it'd be hard to claim that Saturns had poor crashworthiness. Having been in a highway-speed accident in one, let me be the first to attest to how impressively those things hold up. I rolled over and ended up in a ditch, and the front windshield didn't even break; I think the total bill was something like $2k. Carbon fibre is also already heading into commercial vehicles, although, unlike Saturns, starting at the high end (BMWs and Corvettes, for example)

      If you're worried about shrapnel, carbon fibre is certainly less of a shrapnel risk than glass, and we've dealt with that pretty well (for example, lamination). Just like a windshield, if a panel breaks, you replace it. In short, of Boeing thinks that carbon fibre will work for an aircraft situation, I have little reason to think that it wouldn't work for an automotive situation. Aircraft parts generally bear tougher operating requirements than cars do -- a lot more repetitive stresses and the like. Of course, if you want repetitive stress, I can't think of a better example than the Westgate Bridge (page 4).

      All of these techniques would make the car a lot more expensive.

      Which is why it comes down to tech improvements. After all, it's not the raw ingredients of carbon fibre that have been prohibitive, historically; it's the labor. I'm not sure why you think that aluminum is difficult to fabricate; it's easier to cast and machine than steel (repair, well, that depends on the type of damage; aluminium is more susceptible to metal fatigue, although it doesn't rust). Many of the problems in working with titanium are simply due to shops not being equipped to handle it -- for example, all welding must be shielded, and casting isn't as simple as just putting ingots in a crucible and pouring (although the Taramm process gets closer to that). Titanium has a number of manufacturing advantages to counter its disadvantages, though -- for example, corrosion, poor welds, and fatigue are easy to spot because the metal discolors proportional to its oxide thickness.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    33. Re:Not the final solution by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      Aircraft are four orders of magnitude more expensive than cars, operate under rather different circumstances and to a different set of performance and economic parameters. Spending $$$ on light materials is a far easier tradeoff in an airliner than in a car.

    34. Re:Not the final solution by Rei · · Score: 1

      That's part of my point, though: the circumstances that they operate in are stricter than those in which cars operate. If carbon fibre can withstand that kind of wear and tear (including accumulated damage, part replacement, etc), it can certainly withstand the sort it would get in a vehicle.

      The price of carbon fibre parts has decreased enough that high-end commercial cars -- not just custom cars, but mass produced luxury vehicles -- have started using it. It's all about efficient automation.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    35. Re:Not the final solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a culture for which driving to pick up pizza is too much work, a culture of TV dinners, a culture in which food companies have started to make peanut butter and jelly in the same jar so that you don't have to open up two jars. And you expect people to put up with *that*? Heh, Good Luck.

      Have you ever even been outside America to visit the rest of the first world? This is hardly American behavior, although they may have pioneered it. I was born in the States but started going to school in Europe in the 80's and lived in Europe and Asia from the 90's on. Good or bad, it is spreading, and hardly American only.

  9. Why stick with petrol? by shplorb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This sounds an awful lot like a modern diesel engine. Modern diesels are turbocharged and use common-rail injection to achieve insane pressures at the injector heads (for really fine atomisation of the fuel), which directly inject into the cylinder. I believe the newer engines even stagger the injection during the compression and combustion cycles too to achieve more power and cleaner burning.

    (NB: I'm not a revhead so I might be talking shit)

    1. Re:Why stick with petrol? by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're correct about all that, but the insanely high pressure is probably as much about getting the fuel into the chamber as it is about proper atomization. See, in a gasoline engine the fuel is [typically] drawn in with the intake air charge, although they are using direct injection sometimes as well. But in a diesel the ignition timing is controlled by injection timing. Diesels are typically over 17:1 compression - my Mercedes (currently defunct) is 22:1, PLUS an 11 PSI turbocharger. So you need considerable pressure just to get the fuel into the chamber. My Mercedes is old-school, it uses indirect injection (think CVCC, it's got a prechamber) but it also uses a mechanical injection pump that basically consists of a cam that runs five cylinder-type pumps (think hydraulics) and is driven by a connection to the crankshaft.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Why stick with petrol? by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, huh. Good ol' Rudy discovered this almost a century ago. I love the article, "An alternative way to prevent knock is to use a fuel other than gasoline..."

      What? Like diesel? AFAIK, your average diesel has something like 20:1 compression and a much larger torque curve. Plus we can use good old veggie oil.

    3. Re:Why stick with petrol? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Now if the US got their act together and got clean (low sulfur) diesel on the market like Europe, diesel would actually be an acceptable fuel.

    4. Re:Why stick with petrol? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you mean like what US refiners started producing last year?

    5. Re:Why stick with petrol? by shplorb · · Score: 1

      Yeah I know diesels have much higher compression ratios and how they're different from petrol engines. I do think that the insanely high pressures in injector systems these days is more about atomising the fuel than getting it into the cylinder - apparently the latest systems are pushing 4,000psi!

      I'd love to drive a diesel car built today, as the last one I drove was my parents 4wd that's about 4 years old. (That is a huge improvement over the last diesel I drove - their 4 tonne truck with no power steering!)

    6. Re:Why stick with petrol? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Check out one of the new-model Volkswagen TDIs. They're back on sale even in California. Most people have a hard time even knowing they're a diesel if they don't see (or comprehend) the badging. With low-sulfur diesel you can use a catalyst, so the emissions are even quite good. (And if you run on veggie oil, or biodiesel, they're even better.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Why stick with petrol? by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      Um, no. The pressure in the cylinder is maybe 10 bar (10:1 compression ratio) at TDC. Double that for a turbocharged vehicle, double again for a turbodiesel. 40 bar at most. Fuel injection pressure can be as high as 1600 bar (on common rail diesels).

    8. Re:Why stick with petrol? by jafac · · Score: 1

      I drive a TDI.

      And today, I'd tell anyone to avoid VW as a manufacturer.

      My 2003 TDI gets great mileage - and drives great. No getting around that fact. And the TDI engine has a long history of longevity and reliability. That's also a fact.

      But the rest of the car - the interior, the electronics, transmission, etc. Standard, typical Volkswagen cruft. The worst part is what the dealer charges for service. It's fucking absurd. It's like they think they're a fucking Porsche dealer. (One bad experience, I'm never taking it back there - I'll do the work myself).

      The other thing; DEFINITELY avoid the 2004-2006 TDI. It's got a very balky fuel-injection system, and it requires a special grade of engine oil that's very expensive, and hard to find. 2003 seems to be the last good year for these cars. I can't say the same for the 2007 - I honestly don't know. But I'm unhappy with my 2003. As far as reliability and trouble-free operation goes, it's nothing like the Honda I drove in the 1990's.

      Don't get me wrong. I'm a big believer in Diesel - especially with the future of biofuels; and the implications for a carbon-neutral economy. Its just that the Volkswagen experience isn't for everyone. Maybe one would do better in an Audi, Mercedes, or BMW. (Porsche has said they won't make diesels. Which is ironic. Because Porsche used to make diesel farm tractors in the 1950's).

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  10. Still using fossil fuel by fishdan · · Score: 1
    I'm not an eco guy by any stretch of the imagination, e.g. I still have an open mind about the cause of global warming. But I definitely believe what they said in Who killed The Electric Car: With at least $1 Trillion worth of oil in the ground, the oil industry will do ANYTHING to prevent people from finding an alternative source of energy.

    Even promoting more efficient cars.

    --
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm
    1. Re:Still using fossil fuel by EriDay · · Score: 1

      Times have changed since 1996. GM and Ford have spun off Delphi and Visteon. In 1996 the automakers controlled the entire automotive supply chain. Fast forward 10 years and we have Tesla assembling cars from OEM parts. A small cabal of automakers and oil companies can no longer squelch the electric car.

    2. Re:Still using fossil fuel by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      Two major problems still need to be addressed though:

      1) The current state of battery design means you need a big bank of batteries to get the electric car anything close to decent range, with the attendant problem of all that dead weight of the battery packs to lug around.

      2) It takes several hours to charge the battery packs.

      Fortunately, thanks to MIT research into using carbon nanotubes to build better supercapacitor battery packs, we could eliminate both problems simultaneously. This new high-density supercapacitor technology allows for a drastic reduction in the size of the battery pack for the vehicle to get decent range, and because it's a capacitor, it also means charging up the battery pack takes only a few minutes, not several hours you need with conventional NiMH or Li-On battery packs. It's possible that by 2015, a small B-Segment-sized car with a supercapacitor battery pack about the size of the fuel tank of a current car could go as far as 500 km (310 miles) on a single charge and could be recharged in only 3-4 minutes! :-)

    3. Re:Still using fossil fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "we have Tesla assembling cars from OEM parts"

      Do you mean "we have Lotus OEMing an Elise with an electric motor for Tesla"?

    4. Re:Still using fossil fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not an eco guy by any stretch of the imagination Yeah, me neither. In fact, I think the whole idea of there even being an "environment" is just a scam. And even if this so-called "environment" does exist, how the hell could people have any effect on it? And even if we could have an effect, it couldn't possibly be harmful.

      I say, take what you want, and as much as you want. Eat whatever tastes good. Drive whatever vehicle makes you feel safe inside. Don't worry about anything. Let those pansy "eco guys" worry about the so-called "planet" and so-called "ecosystems" and so-called "consequences." Compassion and pacifism is for fags.
  11. Hard to hide now by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1, Informative

    Once you've filed a patent (one synonym of "patent" is "obvious") and received as much news play as this has, it can't be hidden.

    Any attempt to hide it will get as much bad press as Chevron's blocking of high-capacity NiMH batteries for EV's through their Cobasys venture. It will invite things like compulsory licensing.

    1. Re:Hard to hide now by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Huh? You mean this Cobasys?

      "Cobasys, the First Name in Nickel Metal Hydride Battery Solutions, provides commercial NiMH battery systems for the hybrid electric vehicle (HEV), electric vehicle (EV) and 42 Volt transportation markets. The NiMHax brand for EV, HEV, HD HEV, and 42 Volt systems, provides flexible standardized architecture for a wide-range of vehicle solutions."

      Doesn't look very blocked to me. Let's search for more info. The company is greatly expanding...

      http://www.chevron.com/news/press/2005/2005-05-18. asp

      "ORION, MI, May 18, 2005 -- Cobasys, a leader in advanced Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery technology, today announced the grand opening of its new 84,000 square-foot headquarters in Orion, Michigan. The engineering, development, administrative, sales and marketing facility currently houses 175 of the company's 220 employees, and is expanding to accommodate anticipated employment growth of an additional 25 percent through 2006."

      Further searches reveal that all sorts of cars are using Cobasys batteries -- for example, the Saturn Vue. Two companies also produce batteries on license from them -- Panasonic and Sanyo, which produce other hybrid car batteries. It looks like the negative press Cobasys has earned is because it aggressively enforces its patents against NiMH interlopers (one of which happened to produce the EV1's batteries). Looks, by all means, like they want to be the only ones selling NiMH in the US, and selling them in bulk -- not that they don't want anyone selling them.

      From what I've seen, I have to agree with Wired.com's automotive blog:

      "Chevron should be lauded for investing in technology that reduces the demand for its main products (gasoline). The company realizes that hybrids are a great opportunity, so following the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em), they are profiting from the growth of hybrids."

      Oil companies will either adapt (by becoming "energy" companies) or die as the world slowly changes energy sources. That doesn't seem to stop the "it's a conspiracy to suppress energy-saving technology!" nuts.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    2. Re:Hard to hide now by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      To begin with, this technology has been around for something like 60 years. Sorry for the MIT guys but this isn't new. It has been quite possible for some time to get a lot more MPG out of a car. The problem has been two fold. The first is that the High MPG engines make the NOx Pollution. Sorry but if you put the performance chips in your car you can get nearly 2x the power on the same gallon of gas. Of course the sky will turn brown in places like LA if too many people do this.

      On the energy front the other reason for the failure is the deliberate prevention of advanced technology in the Auto and Energy supply industries. Those who think that the resistance isn't there don't know what it going on. Detroit and the other Auto centers don't want a "better car." They want the consumer throwaway car.

      For those who might just want to know the future rarely goes in the direction one thinks at first. IT tends to be a bit cantankerous and tends to go its own way. As a hint though, you might just be wise to look in other directions. Fuel might not be the solution at all. There are at least 11 technologies at this time which are working their way through R&D to production that probably will eliminate fuel from the consideration. A future generation will wonder how we lived the older ways.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
  12. not power, efficiency by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

    There really isn't a shortage of power in modern car engines. What we need is efficiency, and not mere volumetric efficiency at that. The article implies that a smaller engine would be more efficient since it could be lighter, but even if knock is controlled, it will have to be a very stout block with either heavy components (rpm limiting) or expensive titanium components. Knock isn't the only thing that wears/damages a high performance engine. Heat (and heat cycling), friction, and lubrication all have to be carefully managed.

    1. Re:not power, efficiency by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to have heavy components. They could be forged aluminum :) That's significantly more expensive than steel, but a lot cheaper than Ti. And in quantity they wouldn't be nearly as expensive as the aftermarket performance parts typically available. Modern engines are already specifying higher grades of oil and coolant than have been common.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:not power, efficiency by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a better point I could have made is that large, heavy components like transmission, driveshaft, differential, exhaust, radiator, suspension, and frame will not be able to decrease in weight to complement the lighter engine (well, the frame a little bit). These items have to be sized to accomodate a certain amount of torque, power, or heat and a small but powerful engine is no less of a burden than a 30% larger but same-power engine.

      In contrast, making the body lighter (e.g. aluminum as you suggest) reduces the stress on multiple other major components and they can be downsized to match fairly easily, improving mpg proportionately.

  13. I don't get it by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How do we go from this:

    A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine.

    to this: ...Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine, an advance that could allow automakers to convert small engines designed for economy cars into muscular engines with more than enough power for SUVs or sports cars.

    does a 25% increase in efficiency translate into tripling the power output?

    1. Re:I don't get it by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      'cause it has ethanol in it. It is the latest eco-buzzword! It will cure all our problems!

    2. Re:I don't get it by AP2k · · Score: 1

      Efficiency and power are not the same. If a 200 hp engine consumed 20 mpg, an increase of that nature would yeild 600 hp and 15 mpg.

    3. Re:I don't get it by dal20402 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes. Note that I don't actually believe the claim about tripling power, at least not with a whole lot of *very heavy* reinforcement of the block and heads.

      For example: (Note: Numbers strictly pulled out of ass.)

      2.4l conventional engine: 150 hp, 30 mpg

      2.4l Super-Mega-Monster-Gas-TDI-Ethanol engine: 450 hp, 12.5 mpg

      Your engine is 25% more efficient per hp and is generating 3x as much power.

      Of course, the real application they have in mind is to create reinforced motorcycle-size engines that can power sedans, or small car motors that can power SUVs. If your 2.0l engine can create 360 hp, big torque, and get 17-18 mpg, you've reinvented a turbodiesel, except that your engine is (even with reinforcements) way smaller and lighter.

    4. Re:I don't get it by maxume · · Score: 1

      Nothing translates, but it is a double plus good. The energy you can produce with an engine is roughly limited by how much fuel you can burn, which is roughly limited by how much air you can push through it. Limiting pre ignition means you can run at higher pressures, which helps with efficiency and lets you push more fuel through a smaller engine.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing 'Power/EngineSize', and efficiency (Power/FuelConsumption).

      Some of the rotary engines (found in the Mazda RX-7 and RX-8) have *tiny* engines (and substantial power), but still only marginal efficiencies.

    6. Re:I don't get it by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      2.4l conventional engine: 150 hp, 30 mpg

      2.4l Super-Mega-Monster-Gas-TDI-Ethanol engine: 450 hp, 12.5 mpg
      - that's the part I don't get. Is there a dependency between efficiency and power output? I don't see it. They are saying that by increasing efficiency by 25% they are tripling the power output.

      and by the way I don't think it's 150hp, 30mpg to 450hp, 12.5 mpg. It sounds more like 150hp 30mpg to 450hp 22.5mpg, but this can't be right, when the power tripples, the mpg has to be calculated from that trippled power.

      It's as if the engine normally running at 150hp, 30mpg was forced to give 450hp, probably at 10mpg, but would be more efficient at that power output by 25% (your 12.5mpg.) I don't know, it sounds iffy, I can't believe a 25% efficiency increase allows engine to triple power output.

    7. Re:I don't get it by TigerNut · · Score: 1
      The efficiency gain is obrained by using the exhaust heat energy to compress the incoming air and thereby get more air into the engine, which increases power output. The increased power output requires added fuel (as well as the added air) but essentially, more of the available energy is extracted from the fuel before the exhaust is dumped overboard.

      Typical gasoline engines are about 30% efficient from a heat standpoint: 30% of the chemical energy in the fuel is converted to torque at the flywheel. The remainder of the energy is more or less evenly split between the coolant and the exhaust. If the turbocharger were to extract half the available energy in the exhaust stream and use it to compress the incoming air, then that would give you a 25% increase in energy efficiency. The absolute air pressure (at sea level) is about 14 PSI. Using a turbocharger to double the intake air pressure would at least double the engine's power because it's also overcoming pumping losses in the process. Using ethanol or methanol evaporation to cool the intake charge boosts the air density while also adding to the fuel and oxygen dumped into the combustion chamber, so it's a double win. An intercooler would do the same (increasing charge density) but not add any fuel to the mix, and the heat rejected by the intercooler is dumped overboard. THe heat added to the ethanol/methanol gets recycled back out the exhaust.

      --

      Less is more.

    8. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Is there a dependency between efficiency and power output"

      It's called Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption (BSFC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_c onsumption
      Which is the power output of an engine divided by it's fuel consumption rate.

      It's a good measurement when you're talking strictly engine efficiency, rather than trying to picture it as MPG (which depends just as much on the vehicle's weight, aerodynamic drag, and rolling friction as it does on engine efficiency)

    9. Re:I don't get it by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      That's a typo. I think what he meant to say was, "Cohn and his colleagues have created a design they believe could triple the size of their bank accounts"

    10. Re:I don't get it by radl33t · · Score: 1

      I don't think there is much point speculating about what they mean with efficiency and power increase numbers. It generally seems like we never get the straight dope about thermodynamic efficiency. Quoting the true fuel to wheel efficiency would just make us look bad in the eyes of a layman. So instead we create clever yet often meaningless metrics to impress people.

    11. Re:I don't get it by coredog64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      In addition, there's also a point at which a significant reduction in the size and weight of one item (read: That big fucking cast-iron engine under the hood) can drive you towards significant structural reductions in the rest of the vehicle (read: Suspension, the unit-body structure that holds up the engine and transmission, etc. etc.) which then makes it easier to decrease aerodynamic drag without compromising the payload envelope (i.e. where the doofus GP poster sits). You then see an increase in installed efficiency.

      The simple example for this is the motorcycle: An 1100cc motorcycle is insanely fast and gets kick-ass fuel economy where the same 1100cc displacement in your run-of-the-mill Suzuki econobox means you're insane to drive it on the highway.

    12. Re:I don't get it by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      This means a 100 hp 40 mpg car becomes 300 hp 50 mpg. The economy does not degrade as other posters have suggested, because the hp rating is a peak rating, not the power the engine is developing most of the time (which is probably below 20 hp at highway speeds.) The higher economy comes from a better Carnot cycle profile; the higher horsepower comes from that and pumping much more air and fuel through the engine (by turbocharging).

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    13. Re:I don't get it by stmfreak · · Score: 1

      does a 25% increase in efficiency translate into tripling the power output?

      It does if you study mechanics and explosions more than mathematics.

      --
      These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
    14. Re:I don't get it by ksheff · · Score: 1

      People already mod their 2liter motors to produce 5-600hp, but the fuel consumption rate would get them labeled gas guzzlers. But it sounds like this technology is aimed at producing engines that very efficient.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  14. Since when is this news by Ninety-9+SE-L · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Um, we figured this out decades ago. Race engines types of higher octane solutions to raise boost and compression. Methanol, Ethanol, Alcohol, Race fuel. It's simple chemistry. Pure gasoline packs more energy but is unstable, additives like Ethanol raise octane ratings making the fuel more stable but packing less punch (energy per volume of fuel). E85 is equivalent to 108-116 octane, good stuff, but not for a Buick. Throw it into a regular car and you need to suck down more fuel to get the same output, however, throw it into a high compression or high boost engine, and you can more effectively make power. High compression engines are definitely more efficient, ask me how I know. I run 12:1 on 93 octane and get 37MPG on the highway, my car also runs 13s at the track. Before I went high compression, I made about 30MPG on 87 Octane. Calculate this out and I save money even though I'm paying 20c more per gallon. This is racing technology and it's not even remotely new. The only thing that's new is E85 is available at more places and cars are being set up to run E85. If you put E85 in a regular car, you're an idiot. If you buy a car that's supposed to run E85, make sure that it's set up to make the most out of the fuel and never go back to standard gasoline.

    1. Re:Since when is this news by spun · · Score: 1

      Yeah, we've been keeping ethanol in a separate tank from gasoline and injecting it separately and directly into the cylinders to cool them and prevent knock forever. Riiiiight.

      You should really read the article before making snide comments meant to demonstrate your superior knowledge of a topic.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:Since when is this news by Andy_R · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference between this idea and simply mixing ethanol into the petrol is that the ethanol is injected first, so it vapourises, cooling the compression chamber down, in a similar way to a water injection intercooler. Quite how they arrive at a huge power gain from this isn't adequately explained though, and they do seem to ignore the difficulties of strengthening an engine enough to cope with triple the power, and a few thousand freeze/thaw cycles per second, and the extra weight that's going to add.

      Getting a lot of power from a small engine isn't very difficult, the Brabus tuned version of my Smart Roadster (review here) gets over 100bhp from a sub 0.7 l engine, and my less tuned 80bhp version give me about 60 mpg (and thats using our smaller british gallons!). The downside is you don't get lots of torque, which is why you'll only find this engine in a light sporty car, not an SUV.

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    3. Re:Since when is this news by tygt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      give me about 60 mpg (and thats using our smaller british gallons!)
      You mean the little ones that are only about 120% the size of the US gallons?
    4. Re:Since when is this news by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Now go tell this to the folks who won't consider anything below 5 liters a high power engine. Marketing hammers "engine size==power" into consumers' brains around the clock.

      Ever wondered why car companies advertise engine size in the US and engine power everywhere else?

    5. Re:Since when is this news by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Yes, we have been actually. Not in CARS, but that technology is pretty old news as a 50/50 mix of water and alcohol.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    6. Re:Since when is this news by spun · · Score: 1

      Fascinating. You'd think the article would mention this older technology. The difference seems to be the use of pure alcohol rather then water or a water/alcohol mix. But the basic principle is the same, and it doesn't seem like much of a leap to move to pure alcohol.

      Oh, and the article you linked does say that water injection has been used on production cars, Chrysler and Saab, to be specific. It says that interest in the technology has waned after the introduction of the intercooler.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  15. These guys are really on to something by codepunk · · Score: 1

    Wow these guys should sell this technology to the drag racing community...oh wait they have been burning alcohol for years to give them the ability to, reduce intake charge temperatures, reduce pre-ignition in high compression and large boost scenarios.

    Yes we should be burning more ethanol and it is a outstanding engine fuel however pre-blending by the oil companies is a crappy idea. How about blending the fuel at the pump so I can buy pure ethanol and or blended. If one could buy pure ethanol at the pump then those of us that wanted to take advantage of high compression engines with insane boost pressures could do it, and those that wanted to run 15% passenger car run of the mill under powered plants could do the same.

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  16. brief review of article by Xiph · · Score: 4, Informative
    Yes, i'm whoring on the firstpost reply... Daniel Cohn from MIT claims to have increased the efficiency of a regular car engine, by altering the fuel injection system to combine direct injection, turbo charging and alchool into one system.

    A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine.
    They state that it is key to overcome the knock effect, from when the gas explodes before it's supposed to be ignited by the sparkplug. This is done by using the cooling effect of evaporating alcohol. They also recognize the fact that these addons makes the engine more expensive, but claim that it will be offset by not needing as large an engine. (It does not appear as if it has been properly analyzed). They claim that because it's a hybrid of existing technologies it could be ready as soon as 2011.

    This should be a lot more accurate than the original summary.
    --
    Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
    1. Re:brief review of article by dgatwood · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's a cool idea, but it's about twenty years too late to do any good, IMHO. The modified engine requires two separate tanks, one for gasoline, one for pure ethanol (or possibly just a high ethanol mixture like E85). This means that gas stations would have to be retooled to provide ethanol. If you're going to retool the gas stations to provide ethanol, you might as well retool them to provide hydrogen instead. The whole reason for sticking with gasoline is that the distribution mechanism is already in place. Once you take that away and have to start changing things, that benefit evaporates faster than the ethanol....

      And don't get me started about the customer confusion this would cause. "You mean my engine will stop running if I don't keep both tanks full?" If you think printers are bad, imagine your SUV suddenly having the engine capacity of a Yugo because you ran out of ethanol (if the engine runs at all). And I don't think they've considered the safety issues, either. Pump the wrong fuel into the wrong tank, and bad things could happen. That means that the new nozzles would have to be incompatible with gasoline nozzles and vice-versa or grandma's going up like a rocket ship.

      It's a neat idea in theory, and perhaps it will find an appropriate application, but I don't think cars are the right application for the technology. IMHO, by 2011, gasoline-powered vehicles should no longer even be manufactured. Even at maximum efficiency, they are only about 20% efficient. If it's 25% more efficient, that's only 25% efficiency, and that isn't counting loss from the transmission, etc.. Using a gasoline reformer, fuel cell, and electric motor, as best I can tell from running the efficiency numbers for various key parts of the system, we should already be able to beat those numbers by a significant margin (say a factor of two), and that's with technology that is available now and doesn't require any special fuel source....

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    2. Re:brief review of article by suraklin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This means that gas stations would have to be retooled to provide ethanol. If you're going to retool the gas stations to provide ethanol, you might as well retool them to provide hydrogen instead

      If you had bothered to read the article you would have come across this paragraph.

      The researchers devised a system in which gasoline would be injected into the combustion chamber by conventional means. Ethanol would be stored in its own tank or compartment and would be introduced by a separate direct-injection system. The ethanol would have to be replenished only once every few months, roughly as often as the oil is changed. A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine.

      So this could be something that is refilled when getting routine maintainence instead of a weekly fillup.

    3. Re:brief review of article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you missed the part of the article where it said the ethanol tank would need to be filled approximately the same time as you change your oil.

      imagine your SUV suddenly having the engine capacity of a Yugo because you ran out of *motor oil* (if the engine runs at all).

      And I don't think they've considered the safety issues, either. Pump *motor oil* into the wrong tank, and bad things could happen

      There, fixed.

    4. Re:brief review of article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who gives two shits about making petrol engines 25% more efficient when Diesels are already 50% better in practical applications.

      Once again, this just shows that what Americans don't know about car technology could just about be crammed into the Grand Canyon.

      Volkswagen already have quite a few turbocharged FSI petrol and Diesel engines - take a look at how efficient they are before swallowing this MIT bullshit.

    5. Re:brief review of article by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I missed the "every few months" part. So that removes the safety concern. It still doesn't address the other problem, though.

      Jiffy lube says to change oil my oil every 3,000 miles or three months. The manufacturer says 5,000 or six months. Even if I forget to change it and go 7,000, my car does not stop running because my car does not burn oil. If yours does, this probably indicates that your rings are worn or some such problem. Indeed, I could drive for 400,000+ miles on synthetic oil in cool weather without my car suddenly stopping. That's a little extreme, but you get the picture. By contrast, if I run over the limit on changing the ethanol, the car will likely stop running. And that will either be another gauge that people will have to learn to watch or another idiot light that they will ignore and then their car will stop.

      The point is that it's a significant change to the way the vehicle is maintained, with no real benefit when compared with today's alternative fuel technology, and it won't be out for four years, by which time fuel cells should be leaving such designs in the dust.

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    6. Re:brief review of article by voidptr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're going to retool the gas stations to provide ethanol, you might as well retool them to provide hydrogen instead. Except for that minor detail that ethanol is liquid at room temperatures, and otherwise behaves alot like gasoline for the purposes of storing and dispensing it. The cost to refit an existing gas station to carry ethanol is likely orders of magnitude lower than a refit to supply cryogenic hydrogen.

      In addtion, you could concievably blend 87 octane and Ethanol on-site to provide E85 to existing flex-fuel vehicles that can use it today. There's no installed base of hydrogen vehicles like that to transition on.
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    7. Re:brief review of article by suraklin · · Score: 1

      I agree we should be well on the way to alternative energy methods in the coming years. Sadly the US does not seem to be truly interested in other alternate fuel types, and honestly our current attitudes will keep squeezing oil from the planet until we have used every last drop. Instead the current push seems to be towards Corn ethanol which has more efficient alternatives such as sugar cane ethanol.

      From Wikipedia

      Chemically pure hydrogen is derived from a feed stock. The energy to drive this conversion can be produced from fossil fuels, etc. Thus, hydrogen is not a harvestable energy source comparable to fossil fuels, solar energy, and wind energy. The conversions to produce hydrogen will have inherent losses of energy that make hydrogen less advantageous as an energy carrier. Additionally, there are economic and energy penalties associated with packaging, distribution, storage and transfer of hydrogen. Current technologies use between 165% to 212% of the higher heating value to produce the hydrogen

      Fuel Cells have a lot of work to be done. One of the concerns I have is the tendency to freeze up in colder climates. Also fuel cells look to use Natural Gas (another resource that has the same issues as using gasoline) as the main method to produce hydrogen.

    8. Re:brief review of article by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "And that will either be another gauge that people will have to learn to watch or another idiot light that they will ignore and then their car will stop."

      With modern engine control systems, it isn't too hard to back off the timing and the boost when the alcohol runs out.

      They'll get a "low on alcohol" idiot light, and while their car will not stop, it will run like shit and they'll go get a refill.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    9. Re:brief review of article by MasterOfMuppets · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not really, if you run out of Ethanol, the engine will run fine, but with reduced performance due to the increased knock, or more accurately due to the retardation of the timing/change of the mixture to avoid the possibility of increased knock.

      Not changing your oil at the manufacturers recommended interval is foolish and stupid, and imho you deserve engine trouble if you dont! An ethanol topup is the least of your worries if you don't follow the cars basic maintenance requirements.

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    10. Re:brief review of article by tkrotchko · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Jiffy lube says to change oil my oil every 3,000 miles or three months."

      Undoubtedly because Jiffy lube makes a lot of money from people wasting oil this way.

      "The manufacturer says 5,000 or six months."

      Unlikely. I think 7,500 miles is more common. BMW suggests 15,000 miles, but does use a simple computer that estimates gallons burned and tells you when the oil needs to be changed. The result is cheaper for the owner and better for the environment.

      I only bring this up because Consumer Reports debunked the 3K oil change rule about 10 years ago with actual engine teardowns. Globally, imagine the effect if people are changing oil twice (or 3 times) as often as necessary. Even if everyone was recycling the old oil, but when you figure a decent percent just dumps it and it winds up in the water, or soil. It's just terrible for the environment.

      --
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    11. Re:brief review of article by Brew+Bird · · Score: 1

      Nothing new, though, honestly.

      Take a factory turbo car, a window switch and some extra injectors (any NOS kit can supply those), turn up the boost and do a little dyno tuning, and Viola.

      Instant massive power.

        it also helps to put a good sized inter cooler on the system, and maybe a water mister on the Intercooler too.

    12. Re:brief review of article by sleigher · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is similar to alcohol injection, and has been going on for a very long time. The main difference is where and when it gets injected but the effect is the same. Cool the combustion chamber so you can run more boost. Works great! Now if we can get the car companies to make small turbo charged motors with ethanol/alcohol injection we will be doing great. You can run a small tank in the engine compartment with alcohol and inject it straight into the intake as boost levels rise. This stops detonation which allows you to have ALOT more power. Generally you run so little alcohol in the mixture that it isn't really flammable. Here is a SMC kit for alochol injection

      http://www.rjcracing.com/SMC_Alcohol_Injection/smc _alcohol_injection.html

      --

      --
      All points of time and space are connected.
    13. Re:brief review of article by coredog64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amazingly, the diesel is not right for everyone.

      As an honest-to-goodness engineer with several semesters of propulsion classes, it never ceases to amaze me
      that the group of internet fora readers has a massive intersection with diesel fanbois who just can't seem to
      get it through their thick-as-a-diesel-engine-block skulls that engineering is about compromise and there
      is no such thing as the one best way.

    14. Re:brief review of article by profplump · · Score: 3

      Diesel isn't right for everyone. But it is right for a lot of applications where we currently use gasoline, particularly in the US, due primarily to poorly targeted emissions standards, institutional inertia, and public perception. None of those are technical problems, and they're only engineering problems if you're trying to selling something and the business requirements conflict with the technical ones.

      You can't tell me that a gasoline engine is the best way to drive a low-voltage (i.e. low-speed) generator in a system with a sufficient power buffer to allow load adjustments to happen over a period of up to several minutes. I've actually worked on systems that did fuel->electric->rotary motion in a non-propulsion setting with much tighter load-match timing requirements than your average hybrid car, (moreover it was a system that was previously fuel->rotary motion just like hybrid cars) and I really can't fathom why you'd chose a gasoline engine for such an application. That's the kind of silliness that leads to diesel fanboys -- it's a counter to the silliness that puts gasoline into applications where diesel *is* the right choice.

    15. Re:brief review of article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Europe, oil changes at 12,000 mile/20,000 km/annualy are a pretty common periodicity, and some manufacturers go way beyond that, so long as you use a specified oil. The article said the ethanol would have to be replenished only once every few months, so it wouldn't fit with either the oil change/service or the regular visit to the filling station.

    16. Re:brief review of article by Chrisje · · Score: 1

      Hm.

      The 2004 Saab 9-3 that I had, had a small turbo-charger and fuel was already directly injected. It had a 1.9 Litre turbo-diesel engine which delivered 150 bhp and considerable amounts of torque.

      That thing would drive 224 km/hour over the German Autobahn while consuming 11 litres of diesel for 100 km. "Normal" driving, a mix of long-distance at approximately 120-140 km/hr and Stockholm inner-city driving, would yield an impressive 5.8 litres of diesel per 100 km driven. All of this with a manual gearbox with 6 gears.

      It would appear to me that that car was already equipped with said combination of both features. It performed very well and was extraordinarily economic. The engine, by the way, was designed by Italy's Alfa Romeo, but is on par with the Common Rail engines used by Renault and Volkswagen/Audi.

      All of this simply proves that if you want a car with a lot of performance, relatively small engine that is reliable and economic, and that can take curves decently, you should never, ever, ever get a car built by Americans. On top of the above, you'll get more elegant design with European cars, even if they're 0wn3rd by GM in the background somewhere.

    17. Re:brief review of article by MrNaz · · Score: 2

      As an honest-to-goodness consumer, I can tell you that after driving a diesel VW and an equivalent petrol model, I wouldn't give two hoots what kind of fuel the thing uses as long as I buy less of it.

      I don't know why spin doctors with lots and lots of letters after their names can't get it through their thick as a university textbook skulls that all the BS about engineering compromise and economic considerations don't change the fact that consumers don't care about the technology getting them from A to B, so long as it gets them from A to B.

      For the overwhelming majority of applications, diesel does that as well as petrol, and don't tell me otherwise or I'll run you over with any of the hundreds of diesel vehicles available in Europe from tiny hatchbacks through to heavy earth moving equipment.

      --
      I hate printers.
    18. Re:brief review of article by ChadAmberg · · Score: 1

      Somehow I don't think having a "Low on Alcohol" light is a good idea for many drivers...
      Whups, that light is on. I'll stop at the next bar and "Fill me up"...

    19. Re:brief review of article by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The manufacturer's interval is for non-synthetic oil because of viscosity breakdown. It is utterly meaningless for synthetic oil, which exhibits this problem at mere fraction of the rate of standard oil. You don't need to change synthetic oil every few months. It is not at all uncommon to only change it every 6-12 months when using synthetic oil, and it is not at all harmful to do so. Anyone who says differently is probably trying to sell more oil.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    20. Re:brief review of article by 10Ghz · · Score: 1

      "Amazingly, the diesel is not right for everyone."

      For all intents and purposes, diesel does everything gasoline can do. You obviously know of some use for gasoline-engine that couldn't be done with a diesel-engine. Lets hear it.

      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  17. Nowhere near final, but FAR better than E85 by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

    I suppose my first question is, when the owner inevitably lets the ethanol run out, what happens?
    The engine will not be able to run at high boost (power).

    Can the engine computer dial down the boost enough to prevent detonation? Or does the engine just have to shut down?
    That depends on the static compression ratio of the engine, but if it's kept down to a reasonable value the engine should be able to run but the controller will open the turbo wastegate. If the static compression ratio is high enough to knock at close to atmospheric pressure in the manifold, the controller would have to restrict the throttle opening.

    This scheme is a stopgap, pure and simple. 30% is nowhere near good enough — we need plug-in hybrids to displace 80% of our liquid fuel (for starters), not 30%. But when you compare the efficiency losses of gasohol and E85 to the efficiency gains of the smaller turbo engine, and consider that this engine has the potential to run on 100% ethanol (complete flex-fuel operation) and on ethanol with some admixture of water (reducing the energy required for distillation and allowing the ethanol to be shipped by pipeline where it might pick up water), this is a huge improvement.

    Unfortunately, it won't be good for much if we have to trade off food against motor fuel.
  18. Anyone got a link to an actual article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    No, not the PR summary, which seems to suggest that direct injection (into the cylinder, not outside like a standard MPFI system) was new. There's a clue here:

    But Cohn and his colleagues found that if ethanol is introduced into the combustion chamber at just the right moment through the relatively new technology of direct injection, it keeps the temperature down, preventing spontaneous combustion. ...but no more.

    So we know that we're talking exclusively about ethanol, but don't know anything about any claimed performance or efficiency gains. If I was trying to quantify the benefits of something and just said "would be a rocket with our technology" I'd expect to get a kick up the arse and a suggestion to try again. Presumably, since MIT is an academic institution there is something actually written up somewhere?
    1. Re:Anyone got a link to an actual article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The link to page two is kick ass technology it seams.

  19. BMW N54 by KrisJon · · Score: 1

    Aside from the ethanol bit, BMW already uses direct injection and turbocharging to get 300hp, 300ft-lb and 30 MPG (highway) out of a 3 liter I6. N54 engine from the 2007 335: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t= 144546

  20. Kids and car enthusiasts did this decades ago by Oz0ne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seriously. Direct injection, fine tuned control of timing, and turbo charging all put together is what you see in a large number of hobbiest race cars. Drag, autocross, whatever. A lot of times they'll skimp on tolerances thus reducing the reliability of the engine, but it's not at all uncommon to take a solid normally aspirated engine and triple it's output with some good planning and bit of machine work.

    I've personally never added a turbo where there wasn't one before, but I HAVE done machine work, timing work, and injector work. I've taken a car from 220 hp to 290 hp with no detriment to the mileage, just better fuel/air mixtures and precise timing. It doesn't surprise me at all that people who've actually studied combustion instead of working on it for fun have been able to triple the output.

    What's surprising is how inneficiently tuned a lot of engines come from the factory.

    1. Re:Kids and car enthusiasts did this decades ago by thsths · · Score: 1

      > What's surprising is how inneficiently tuned a lot of engines come from the factory.

      For American cars, I absolutely agree. Those engine sizes are just massive, and the power is not usually what you could expect. Of course the upside is that the engine will last forever.

      European cars (especially the engines designed in Germany) and Toyota engines are much smaller, but develop an astonishing amount of power. This does benefit the efficiency, but it is possible to ruin such an engine if you abuse it (revving when cold, cheap oil etc).

      So what have we learned? Nothing. Science is about generalising, and running a sample of one is not. So what they need to do is to look at different cars and see how efficient the engines are, and whether there are any side effects.

    2. Re:Kids and car enthusiasts did this decades ago by coredog64 · · Score: 1

      It's not surprising at all. If you keep the load on ferrous materials below a certain limit, they'll essentially have an infinite life. If you try and shave a couple of grams by using aluminum connecting rods, they do not have that same infinite life and will have to be replace.

  21. I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    if it will become the next redneck toy to show off at the Burger King's parking lot.

    Meh, they'll stick to the neon lights.

    1. Re:I wonder... by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      Man, you haven't been in enough Burger King parking lots.

      *Rednecks* would rip the neon right off the car. They're more interested in oversized tires, big loud ugly intake/exhaust components, and torn seats.

      *Ricers* put on neon, and fart cans, and decals. Lots of decals.

      Oh, and the rednecks are modifying pickups, old Detroit iron, and (when they somehow stumble across money) '90s Camaros. The ricers are modifying Civics and Corollas, mostly.

    2. Re:I wonder... by KC7JHO · · Score: 1

      And actually, a Redneck would be VERY proud of this tech! In my time going to vo-tech (google it) in mid Oklahoma I have seen pickups with windshield washers modded to spray watter mist into a carburetor! The even swore it boosted the horse power by some insane %!
      Ah the memories! Wonder we didn't kill ourselves!

  22. Audi A3 by neurosis101 · · Score: 1
    How about the Audi A3 2.0T? Direct injection from Audi's R8 racing technology and turbocharged too.

    Congrats to MIT for discovering already in use technology!

    Then again, maybe its new to them because Americans don't like LeMans?

    1. Re:Audi A3 by ettlz · · Score: 1

      Is that similar to the VW Golf GT, with the 1.4 TSI engine?

    2. Re:Audi A3 by zakkie · · Score: 1

      Corvettes have won their class at Le Mans for many years straight now. Sure, the yanks still build Flintstone-esque primitive automotive appliances, but credit where it's due, Le Mans is not unknown territory.

    3. Re:Audi A3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mention the Corvette. The last 2 generations of Corvette were quite the engineering accomplishments. They provided the best bang for the buck in a reliable, well engineered package.

      Featuring no ordinary a push rod V8 that seems to do just as well or better then it's Italian and German counterparts, and the most advanced leaf spring in a production vehicle.

      American cars have come quite a way in the past 2 decades. I've even considered buying one, even though I personally love Japanese sports cars. But yes, credit where credit is due.

    4. Re:Audi A3 by adrianmonk · · Score: 1

      How about the Audi A3 2.0T? Direct injection from Audi's R8 racing technology and turbocharged too. Congrats to MIT for discovering already in use technology!

      As the (proud) owner of an Audi A3 2.0T, I can confidently say that the technology described in the article is different. The A3 2.0T is one of the first production cars to combine turbocharging and direct injection, but it does not do the ethanol thing described in the article.

      The point of the article seems to be that, while direct injection has already been done, and while mixing in alcohol (or water) to combat knocking has already been done, direct injection of alcohol to combat knocking had not already been done, and it apparently has dramatic effects that either of the two alone does not have. Assuming this is the case, that would then allow you to increase compression with impunity.

      Getting back to the A3, it's clear it doesn't achieve its power by increasing compression with impunity. If it did, it would not require the high-octane fuel that it does.

  23. MIT guys!! by eclectro · · Score: 1

    Please drop your internal combustion research. This is a dead-end technology that relies on us burning stuff that we buy from terrorists. Please focus your efforts on a fusion engine that uses garbage like in the movies. The flying car part can wait though. Just get the fusion engine going. Thanks.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:MIT guys!! by jelizondo · · Score: 1
      Not every oil-producing country is infested with so-called terrorists.

      The U.S. buys a large part of its oil from México, for example.

      Don't buy the fascist rhetoric pal.

      --
      Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
    2. Re:MIT guys!! by eclectro · · Score: 1

      The U.S. buys a large part of its oil from México, for example.

      But aren't we being invaded by the Mexican's on a daily basis??

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    3. Re:MIT guys!! by synaptic · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because Mexico is such a great ally. The state owns and operates the oil reserves.

      Who really wants to depend on Mexico for energy? Hell, they've got cartels there putting the heads of police on pikes outside the police stations. Meanwhile, the government is actively encouraging it's peasant/lower class to illegally invade the United States and is quick to raise international protest when we move to protect our border. Our own National Guard has even retreated from our own borders after being engaged by Mexican gunmen, believed to Mexican military.

      And while most Americans couldn't tell you a damn thing about the Mexican-American War, most Mexicans remain bitter. We invaded Mexico, laid siege to Mexico City, and took over half her territory. We walloped them. They are paying us back through demographics so let's not finance their movement by a continued dependence on oil, if we can help it. And the suggestion that throwing money at Mexico will make those peasants stay home is a myth. That money will never reach the peasant indians.

      Foreign oil is foreign oil. Shove billions of money at Mexico and we'll have some even nastier terrorists there.

    4. Re:MIT guys!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please focus your efforts on a fusion engine that uses garbage like in the movies. The flying car part can wait though. Just get the fusion engine going. Thanks.
      I'm guessing you were trying to be funny, but it occurred to me that the DeLorean in "Back to the Future" actually only used the Mr. Fusion to power the flux capacitor (instead of the old plutonium fission reactor; just imagine fission-powered cars...). Strangely enough, it still needed gasoline for the engine, which was the plot point around the third movie. Stupid? Maybe. But hey, it's popcorn entertainment. :)
    5. Re:MIT guys!! by ksheff · · Score: 1

      we get even more oil from Canada. What about them?

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    6. Re:MIT guys!! by hador_nyc · · Score: 1

      LET'S INVADE CANADA!!!
      jk...

      although technically, didn't we during the revolution and the war of 1812? Do I remember that right? Technically, it was part of GB, but ...
      we lost, right? doh!

      --
      - Mike
      Once you've lost your temper, you've lost the argument - Me
    7. Re:MIT guys!! by ksheff · · Score: 1

      neither side claimed victory, so I suppose you could consider it a draw.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    8. Re:MIT guys!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All those Canadians must be terrorists. Otherwise, the US would not have added passports as a requirement for travel to Canada.

      That, and look at all the beer they keep pushing on us, trying to get us Americans all woozy and drunk. Some Saturday night while we are all out drinking and carrying on, they'll sneak across the border and we'll all wake up Sunday morning with a hangover and red maple leaf waving over the nation's capital and 'Oh Canada!' playing on the TV! We'll come to regret all the Molzons we drank the night before, yes we will.

      On the upside, we'll have better entertainment on the TV ("This hour has 22 minutes") and universal health coverage.

      Of course we'll also get stuck with Quebec, unless we can finally convince them to quit the union. Not that I really mind the froggy bastards, truly, but the language thing, what with all the Spanglish that we have already, would be just a tad too much. Plus, we'll still need a foreign place to visit that isn't too far away, and Montreal is such a lovely place, particularly in the late summer and early fall.

  24. What would you say... by Skadet · · Score: 2, Funny

    What would you say to some nice ethanol?

    I'd say, "Don't get too comfortable in that glass!"


  25. New Technology by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

    Do you really think that the Big Three will adopt new engine technology?

    You can still find push-rod engines being built today...

    1. Re:New Technology by confused+one · · Score: 1
      I know it's /. but...

      if you rtfa, you'd see that Ford is testing it.

    2. Re:New Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends who you think the "big three" are...

      BMW, Audi and Mercedes have been doing direct injection for a while, and I hear small, turbocharged engines are pretty popular in Japan.

    3. Re:New Technology by zzatz · · Score: 1

      DC, Ford, and GM already sell engines using direct injection.

      US automakers do have management problems, but technology is not one of them. Quality levels are actually better than most European and some Japanese competitors, but are sadly sabotaged by incompetent dealerships. The UAW remains a huge problem; the leadership would like to take the steps needed to save good jobs for the long run, but the membership will toss out anyone who tries. Health care costs are out of control. And so on...

      It could be worse. Ford looks good compared to FIAT.

    4. Re:New Technology by OKCfunky · · Score: 1

      Wow, it appears there is a big spread between a car nerd and an IT nerd 1) the Big 2.5 will take advantage of it when needed, some of their larger powerplants are very efficient. GM in particular has rather very efficient large displacement engines. I have a 496CI big block in a 7K lb very un-aerodynamic brick, and I get 14mpg... can you top that and still get 9mpg with a 12K load? It's a very, very tall order. 2) OHC is equally as old as OHV, and in general is less tolerant of abuse than an OHV system. Don't perpetuate ricer myths when you have no knowledge to be speaking. Please sell whatever car you drive, and get in line for public transportation.

    5. Re:New Technology by couchslug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "You can still find push-rod engines being built today..."

      Within the right rpm range, they are perfectly suitable for many installations.
      OHC engines are nice for high rpm use, and a dandy martketing feature, but pushrod engines can do the job from industrial equipment to Top Fuel drag racing.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:New Technology by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      >Do you really think that the Big Three will adopt new engine technology?

      Yes. After they went Chapter 11 and got picked up by Toyota, VW & co.

    7. Re:New Technology by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      >Within the right rpm range, they are perfectly suitable for many installations.

      No.

      High rpm & high compression (static and/or charged) => smaller engine with the same output => higher efficiency (less friction, higher combustion temperature => higher thermodynamic efficiency.)

      Pushrod => Low rpm => big engine & low combustion temperature => inefficient engine.

    8. Re:New Technology by hb253 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing inherently bad or wrong with pushrod engines.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    9. Re:New Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've no idea what you're talking about but your numbers scare me.

      Are you posting from the fucking '70s?

    10. Re:New Technology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Depends on the design goals, which may not include maximum thermodynamic efficiency!

      In drag racing, non-OHC engines keep high parts prices from becoming even more expensive because they are simpler to machine and easier to support due to the large installed base of similar engines. Pushrod engines are also a breeze to field-strip between rounds.

      Design goals may include inexpensive production, easy field repair, and long life under harsh conditions with indifferent maintenance.
      The classic Briggs and Stratton flathead, produced by the millions, is an example.The Changfa and Listeroid diesels are in use worldwide.

      http://www.utterpower.com/changfa.htm

      http://www.lovson.com/lister-type-slow-speed-diese l-engines.html

      A notable factor in the long life of designs like the inefficient Harley V-twins is that it was easy for the aftermarket to support them with replacement cylinders, heads, and crankcase halves due to their simple designs. I can easily keep an old H-D on the road, while most of the Japanese machines I grew up with went to the crusher because their high-tech powerplants were not economically repairable when they wore or broke.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    11. Re:New Technology by zzatz · · Score: 2

      The benefit of OHC is higher RPM, allowing a small displacement engine to pump the same volume of air as a larger, slower engine. Smaller displacement may mean lower weight for some components, but OHC adds weight for others. When taxes are based on displacement, OHC is a clear win.

      But OHC has drawbacks, too. Higher RPM also means more frictional losses pumping that air, and to a lesser extent, higher frictional losses in other areas. OHC also requires more parts, increasing cost and weight and reducing reliability. For the same displacement, the heads and drive train will weigh more for an OHC engine than for a pushrod engine. This is especially true for the V layout, where both banks can share a camshaft in a pushrod engine, but you need two (or four) cams and a heavier, more complex cam drive train.

      Pumping losses kill efficiency at high RPMs. For racing or for a sports car, efficiency is secondary to power/weight ratio. Turbo- or supercharging improves power/weight even more, but again lowers efficiency due to friction, lowers reliability due to increased complexity, and increases price. That's OK when maximum power is the concern. When getting the most power out of a given volume of fuel has priority, large slow engines rule.

      Both pushrod and OHC engines can be designed for whatever compression ratio and combustion properties you want. Neither has an advantage there.

      High revving engines are ALWAYS the result of rules or taxes based on displacement. Eliminate taxes based on displacement and substitute taxes on fuel, and you'll see a shift towards pushrod designs.

    12. Re:New Technology by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Now I'm wondering...

      Why are economical engines invariably (D)OHC with high rpm (I'm not talking >10,000 motorcycle engines, but 7-8,000 redline)?

      Why are gas guzzlers invariably pushrod designs? Ok, you can build inefficient OHC engines too, but show me an efficient pushrod engine.

      Could it just be that pushrod is an obsolete design, that's why the rest of the world has dumped it?

    13. Re:New Technology by zzatz · · Score: 1

      You have the cart before the horse. Many obsolete designs used pushrods. Many obsolete designs used overhead cams. They are obsolete for a variety of reasons.

      Where efficiency is critical and weight is not, large slow engines rule. Consider ships and locomotives. Granted, those are Diesel rather than Otto cycle, but it shows how important the relationship is between RPM and friction. Consider two pumps, one with a displacement half the size of the other. The smaller one must run at twice the RPM to match the volume. But the friction of the air moving in and out of the pump does not increase linearly with velocity, it increases much faster than that. Higher velocity means much higher drag. All industrial engines run at low RPM because that's where you get the lowest fuel consumption for a given power output.

      Consider a car at idle. The throttle is nearly closed, and the power generated by burning the fuel is exactly matched by the power lost pumping the air through the engine. Luckily, increasing the air friction reduces the RPM. which reduces the power by reducing the amount of fuel used. At full throttle, if the engine doesn't come apart, the power produced also equals the power used in pumping the air. The fact that gasoline engines have been controlled by throttles for most of their history shows just how important air (and exhaust) frictional losses are. One of the keys to the direct injection technology in the article is that it enables doing away with the throttle (and its frictional losses) and controlling power through metering the fuel.

      Most cars only need a few horsepower to overcome rolling resistance. All of the rest is used to overcome the friction of the air passing over the car. It takes power to move air over a car. It takes power to move air through an engine. And it takes way, way more power at higher speeds. High RPM engines make more power, but they also waste more power.

      High RPM engines waste more power than low RPM engines. Most racing rules limit displacement, so the loss of efficiency is much less important than higher overall power. Many countries charge lower taxes for smaller displacements, so smaller but less efficient engines are cheaper to run. But if you are optimizing for the most power from a given quantity of fuel, than slower is better.

      For automobiles, weight does matter. For a given displacement, pushrods are lighter. But a smaller, higher-revving engine may be lighter for a given power. It will use more fuel to get that power. But a lighter car will need less power to accelerate. On the other hand, engine weight is only part of the total weight, and aerodynamic losses don't depend on weight at all. So there's no clear winner if your only concern is fuel consumption.

      Compare the current pushrod Corvette with any similar class car, and see which gets better highway mileage. At legal speeds, it loafs along in top gear.

      Most of the world taxes vehicles by displacement. That favors small engines. You get more power out of a small engine by increasing the RPM. Not more power per unit of fuel, more power per displacement, at the COST of higher pumping losses.

    14. Re:New Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say eff pushrods, (D)OHC, and valves altogether. They're all inefficient.

      Give me a rotary any day; I'll rock my 1 litre Wankel until they outlaw the sucker!

    15. Re:New Technology by CreateWindowEx · · Score: 1
      I second that.


      My understanding is that OHC engines used to be more of a win, but modern materials have allowed pushrod engines to regain much the gap, plus the fact that pushrod engines can be more compact and have fewer parts that can break. There are even pushrod engines that can do 8000 RPM, others that use variable valve timing. Not to mention the powerful Corvette can still get 29 EPA Hwy, while many of its upscale competitors with "high feature" DOHC engines and comparable weight and power get worse fuel economy. I also think the European displacement regulations have caused many makers to focus on displacement over efficiency. Small displacement, high-power turbo engines get horrible gas mileage, especially if you ever use the throttle pedal.


      That being said, I find driving a high-revving Honda more satisfying than a low-revving GM stump puller, but that's more aesthetics than logic. And car fanboys will always pick some random differentiating factor to trumpet why their favored type of car is the best, even though in reality any number of designs have been both well- and poorly-executed at different times.

    16. Re:New Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You can still find push-rod engines being built today..."

      Like the 6.0 Liter LS2 engine in my GTO. It puts out 400HP/400TQ, and gets 25MPG on the highway, 20MPG combined. Awesome engine :)

    17. Re:New Technology by mesmartyoudumb · · Score: 1

      Some of the most popular and best sports-car engines today are pushrod v8's, and on top of that, the first ever Super Ultra Low Emission engine, made by GM, is a good ole American Super-charged pushrod motor (3800 Series III.)

      Some Push Rod engines you may be aware of:

      * Chevrolet Corvette 7.0L V8 Engine (505 hp, 475 lb/ft torque)
      * Chrysler Hemi

      As for the age-ole "Anti-American" propaganda, let's take a gander at the first engine on that list again:

      It's amazing that a Corvette makes that much power, and gets 27mpg. It also is a low emissions vehicle. Was the first 500+ hp car to avoid the Gas-guzzler tax. It goes 0-60 in 3.4 seconds as tested by Car and Driver.

      So just to reinforce the point: It's wayyy faster than an M6, gets wayyy better gas mileage, and costs about $30k less. Oh yeah, it's more reliable too.

      You can put any car in the world up against the vette and you won't be disappointed with the results. The upgraded 650 HP version is just around the corner.

      So, pray tell, WHY do you need two cams again? For no reason but Propaganda, son.

      --
      "Comedy's a dead art form. Now tragedy, that's funny."
  26. Why funny? by Skadet · · Score: 1

    Why is this rated "funny"? Mythbusters did this:

    "Although there's no word on damage to the engine from using used cooking oil, a diesel-fueled car did run on it. However, the MythBusters speculate that once this alternative fuel achieves a significant interest level among the public, used cooking oil will be hoarded as a saleable commodity. The used cooking oil also did not quite fit the requirement of improved fuel efficiency, as it yielded approximately 10% less distance for an equivalent amount of diesel."

    See here and here (scroll down)

    1. Re:Why funny? by LiENUS · · Score: 3, Informative

      the beauty of a diesel is it runs on any oil, used cooking oil, cod liver oil, diesel fuel oil, motor oil. Properly setup itl'l run on used motor oil, used transmission fluid, used any oil.

    2. Re:Why funny? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is hardly true. There are many non trivial barriers to overcome using high viscosity fuels, atomization, mu(T), build up, and corrosion. Don't be a clueless faggot and assume it works just because you can compress it until it explodes. Theres no point to using exotic fuels in a modern diesel engine if we can't take advantage of modern engine technology and currently we can't. Goto hell cock sucker.

    3. Re:Why funny? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      In theory it will, but on a modern diesel the engine management system won't let you get away with it.

      There's a biofuel station just a few miles from mem but even they say don't try putting more than 5% biofuel into my car as it'll refuse to start... so I didn't bother - I see little point in using 95% diesel *and* paying a premium (in the UK biofuel is taxed more heavily than diesel so it costs more).

    4. Re:Why funny? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They tax biofuels MORE than non-biofuels? Does your government get a hard-on passing more taxes? Sucks being a subject.

    5. Re:Why funny? by Carnivore · · Score: 1

      There's no reason I've seen in any of my research that would indicate that it's bad to run any percentage, up to and including 100% biodiesel.

      They may be concerned that your engine is old, and that it has natural rubber tubing, which biodiesel will eat. It's not likely that you do--even if your engine was that old, you'd probably have replaced the lines by now anyway.

      Or they might be worried that the biodiesel's superior solvent properties will strip dino-diesel residue out of your fuel system and clog your filters...?

      I'm really not sure. Maybe it's just that they'll look bad if they charge you what appears to be an outrageous price for a litre of fuel.

      Why's the tax on biofuel higher than dino?

    6. Re:Why funny? by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      You must learn to read, Properly set up I said. you can take advantage of modern engine technology with vegetable oil by simply preheating it until it reaches the same viscosity as diesel fuel oil. There are other similar methods of getting other fuels to burn. And generally most of the oils I listed do not cause corrosion or buildup. You really ought to learn to read, reading is a wonderful thing.

  27. Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff already. by sbaker · · Score: 4, Informative

    The '07 MINI Cooper'S has a 4 cylinder 1.6 liter direct-injected twin-turbocharged engine - and since most fuel in the US now contains 10% ethanol, I'd say the "experimental" technology these guys are pushing is already out there in at least one production car. The problem with knocking has been nailed a bazillion years ago - just about all modern cars have an anti-knock sensor that can richen the mixture if it detects signs of knocking - but with high octane gasoline - it only very rarely has to actually do that - so the "problem" of knocking isn't really there. The only time the MINI actually does something like that is when the dumb user filled the thing with regular low-octane gas instead of 'the good stuff'.

    Add to that that the MINI has goodies like electric oil, power steering and water pumps that can actually be turned off (rather than merely bypassed) when not needed - so the engine reaches it's most efficient temperature faster and you aren't burning fuel circulating fluids that don't need to be circulated yet. It has computer controlled inlet and exhaust valves - so the timing is infinitely variable - and can be varied separately for each cylinder. For short bursts of accelleration, the car has an 'overboost' feature from the turbo - which won't help you much for prolonged hard accelleration - but is great for a rapid burst of speed for overtaking, blasting out of a corner (FUN!) or blowing away those bloody ugly Scion xB's at traffic lights (a personal mission of mine, I might add).

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  28. Hardware: A New Lease On Internal Combusiton by DuckByte · · Score: 1

    With all the new technology constantly being tested by the auto racing community, it's hard to believe that any "breakthru" could truly produce such a large increase in horsepower. The Formula One teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars for modest increases in performance. If it were taht easy, it would have been done already.

    1. Re:Hardware: A New Lease On Internal Combusiton by TigerNut · · Score: 1

      The difference between F1 technology and what you drive on the street is comparable to the difference between Lance Armstrong riding his bike, and you riding your bike (or atleast me riding my bike). At the consumer level, there are many options available for easy, fast, and reliable performance improvement, at relatively low cost. If you've already been to that well a few times then finding the next significant performance improvement is exponentially harder.

      --

      Less is more.

    2. Re:Hardware: A New Lease On Internal Combusiton by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Formula One teams have some very strict rules they have to work to.

      1) must be normally aspirated (no turbocharging/supercharging)
      2) strict controls on fuel (which rules out the water or ethanol injection)

      I would love to see what they could do if they were given a clean slate.

  29. Turbo lag, premature combustion by hcdejong · · Score: 2, Informative

    If they use this to increase turbocharger pressure, I'd expect turbo lag [1] to become a problem again. It'd be better to increase the compression ratio instead. Or maybe combine ethanol injection with some of the variable-compression designs that have been surfacing lately.

    Also: why would premature combustion still be a problem in a direct-injection engine? It should be possible to inject the fuel when it is needed, and not before. Or would that lead to timing problems?

    1: turbo lag is the delay between pressing the accelerator and power output rising. It's affected by the size of the turbocharger, boost pressure and a few less important factors.

    1. Re:Turbo lag, premature combustion by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      >If they use this to increase turbocharger pressure, I'd expect turbo lag [1] to become a problem again.

      With intelligent engine management, you can keep the turbo rpm up and/or spin it up very quickly.

      Also, you can add a compressor (like VW with TSI.)

    2. Re:Turbo lag, premature combustion by njh · · Score: 1

      Hybrids should solve the turbolag problem. (whether ultraflywheel or battery)

    3. Re:Turbo lag, premature combustion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Variable vane technology has come to small turbos that are useful for spark-ignition passenger cars so you can have quick spool-up without having a small scroll that creates too much back-pressure at higher RPMs. The vanes act like a thumb over a garden hose directing high velocity jets at the turbine buckets at low gas flow so that the scroll can be sized for the full operating range of the engine without neccesarily needing a wastegate. This means the turbo is being used fully as it was meant to be, as a scavenger of waste heat that would otherwise be dumped out the exhaust.

      The most efficient internal-combustion engine ever devised, the R-3350 radial of the Lockheed Constellation, actually geared the fluid-drive output of its 3 turbines directly to the driveshaft. The 2-speed centrifugal impeller of the supercharging was powered from the gearcase. It also used direct fuel injection. And water-alcohol injection.

      As far as the alcohol injection is concerned, the description seems to imply that it is being used as a phase-change "intercooler" of sorts. (There's no 'inter' to the cooling however, maybe intracooler?) The amount of alcohol used also seems to imply that he isn't trying to claim any oxygenation of the fuel. And he seems to be specific that it's not direct fuel injection but rather direct alcohol injection during the compression stroke while the fuel-air mixture is being compressed.

    4. Re:Turbo lag, premature combustion by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      The most efficient internal-combustion engine ever devised,

      Not by a long shot. For its time, and for being a petrol engine it was pretty good, but much more efficient designs (using 40% less fuel to produce the same amount of power) are available now.

      Comparison here. Note the Napier Nomad, which used similar ideas to the R-3350 but burned diesel.

      The R-3350 is a two-row aircooled radial, not the most efficient layout to begin with.

  30. CSIRO have researched this by EEPROMS · · Score: 1

    I listened to a CSIRO podcast about this about 6 months ago. With normal combustion as you increase the pressure you also increase the problem of early ignition (knock) due to a side effect of the temperature increasing. What they found out was if you add ethanol it has a "cooling" effect to the combustion chamber thus allowing you to increase the pressure in the combustion chamber. For auto makers this means they can use smaller lighter motors in a car to gain the same amount of power output.

    1. Re:CSIRO have researched this by EEPROMS · · Score: 1

      Sorry I missed a bit, what the study actually found was how little ethanol you needed, you can have a small tank (around 10 litres) and it would last 3 months on a single refill for the average commuter, but the engine could have 2 times to 4 times the power to weight ratio.

  31. Audi RS4 by mihalis · · Score: 3, Informative
    Audi already uses direct injection and uses a compression ratio of 12.5:1 in its 4.2 liter v8 achieving 100 horsepower/liter without a turbocharger, see 2007 Audi RS4 review at Edmunds.COM

    I'm intrigued to imagine what they could do if this ethanol based charge cooling works out. I'm already forced to put 15% ethanol in my Audi V8 (sadly NOT an RS4), living in NYC, but if this works out maybe I can support the farmers AND have a powerful car for the weekends (I commute on the subway).

    1. Re:Audi RS4 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might be giving direct injection too much credit for the the 100HP/liter figure. My E46 M3 achieves ~104HP/liter without employing direct injection or forced induction, and a Honda S2000 produces 120HP/liter the same way. Direct injection is superior to conventional EFI and there's no question that it's they way of the future, but there's more to creating a high efficiency motor than DI.

      The RS4 is a great car by the way... now if only they could shed a few pounds off of it! Two tons? Yikes!

    2. Re:Audi RS4 by mihalis · · Score: 1

      You might be giving direct injection too much credit for the the 100HP/liter figure. My E46 M3 achieves ~104HP/liter without employing direct injection or forced induction, and a Honda S2000 produces 120HP/liter the same way. Direct injection is superior to conventional EFI and there's no question that it's they way of the future, but there's more to creating a high efficiency motor than DI.

      I didn't mean to imply that direct injection is the only way, it's been possible for a while with variable timing and aggressive cams. There are several normally aspirated engines exceeding 100 bhp/liter without direct injection, for example I believe the Ferrari 360 CS (Challenge Stradale) gets approaching 117 bhp/liter.

      But the engines that do this without direct injection had a reputation for peakiness due to the aggressive cam profile needed, true for all of the Ferrari, BMW and Honda engines mentioned. What the Audi engine seemed to offer is competitive specific output, especially for a big engine but still with a very healthy torque curve. The Honda is particularly impressive on paper, but it uses sky-high engine speed and is reputedly gutless at lower speed. The Porsche GT3 engine in the latest version is something like 400bhp from 3.6 liters, again with a good torque curve.

      So I guess my contention is direct injection increases the output without going to heroic means like 9000rpm screamers.

  32. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by jumpingfred · · Score: 2, Informative

    What!? Most fuel in the US contains 10% ethanol? Only 1/8th of the Gas in the sates has ethanol.

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/blends/etha nol.html

  33. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by GameMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You either need to read the article or, if you have, brush up on your reading comprehension skills. The technique used in the article is supposed to allow them to push the turbo pressure much higher than any modern car can handle, even when using high octane fuel. They're talking about using a separate direct injection system to pump a small amount of pure ethanol into the cylinder out of phase with the gasoline. It would cool the cylinder enough to stop knock when the gas is injected at extreme pressures. Supposedly, you would have to replace the ethanol about as often as you have to replace the oil (every few months).

    Next time, please try reading the article instead of seeing "ethanol" and "turbocharger" in the summary and shooting your mouth off.

    -GameMaster

    --

    Rules of Conduct:
    #1 - The DM is always right.
    #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
  34. Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Spoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People have long known that ethanol fuels have high octane ratings (the measure of how knock resistant a fuel is).

    People have also long known that turbo charging an engine is a great way to extract more power out of a small engine.

    People have also known that direct injection allows you to reduce the tendency to knock since it lets you inject fuel into the hot engine at the very last second - reducing the amount of time the air/fuel mixture has to heat up.

    And guess what? Mazda produces cars today that has both direct injection and is turbo charged. For example, the MazdaSpeed 3.

    It's 2.3 liter engine produces 263hp and 280lb/ft of torque and has an EPA fuel economy rating of 20/28mpg. So yes, while it does provide good power and decent gas mileage, it's nothing earth shattering compared to turbocharged cars without direct injection.

    The engine has a very high compression ratio for a turbo charged gasoline engine (9.5:1), especially one that pushes over 15psi of boost into the cylinders. That is direct injection working for you.

    For example, the slightly bigger turbo charged 2.5 liter Subaru WRX engine has a compression ratio of 8.4:1 and maximum boost of 11.6psi is rated at 230hp/235lb/ft of torque (though it is admittedly underrated) with similar fuel economy as the Mazdaspeed 3 considering that it is all-wheel-drive (20/26mpg EPA). The more powerful WRX STi has the same 2.5l displacement, 8.2:1 compression ratio and a bigger turbo pushing 14.5 psi is rated at 293hp/290lb/ft of torque but less fuel economy, 18/24mpg.

    Unless there is a lot of potential still to be found by combining these 2 technologies, I see it as more of an evolution rather than a revolution. Perhaps a 1.0 liter engine would be able to muster 120+ hp/torque but I find it hard to believe that it could achieve mileage ratings significantly higher than a hybrid. And you still can't turn the engine off when idling or coasting down hill.

    So how about a direct-injection, turbo-charged, atkinson cycle hybrid and combine the best of all technologies?

    1. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by hardburn · · Score: 0

      Read my other reply. No car on the market, even if it's labled "turbocharged" and "direct injected", has anything like what these guys are doing.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    2. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      "People have also long known that turbo charging an engine is a great way to extract more power out of a small engine.


      True. But it should be noted that it's better to use a super charger vs. turbo on an I-4 (four cylinders). First, it's cheaper and more reliable. Second, you will benefit from the extra torque in everyday driving. With a turbo charger, you don't start making power till mid to high RPMs. Oh ya, and the turbo lag thing sucks ass with a small engine. Because of the aforementioned, turbo charging is the perfect application for a V-8 or I-6 block as you've already got the torque to start with and extra exhaust flow to spool up the turbine.

      While it's true that a super charger system is parasitic (takes HP to make more HP), this is only true under load. Modern super charger kits have a waste gate so your compressor isn't always under load.
      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      >> So how about a direct-injection, turbo-charged,
      >> atkinson cycle hybrid and combine the best of all technologies?

      You left out diesel and two-stroke!

      Seriously, a direct injection two-stroke turbo diesel running intermittently at optimal RPM in a serial hybrid might get north of 75mpg in a typical family sedan. The NOx and particulate emissions are very hard to mitigate though so most manufacturers have chosen not to go down this route.

    4. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about a turbine engine in a series hybrid?

    5. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by XCol · · Score: 0
      Unless there is a lot of potential still to be found by combining these 2 technologies, I see it as more of an evolution rather than a revolution. Perhaps a 1.0 liter engine would be able to muster 120+ hp/torque but I find it hard to believe that it could achieve mileage ratings significantly higher than a hybrid. And you still can't turn the engine off when idling or coasting down hill. Check out the 998cc engine in the Yamaha R1, a sub 1 litre engine punching out 150+hp is nothing new... http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/YZ F%20R1.htm

      # Engine: DOHC, 20 valve, 4cyl, 998cc # Power output: 152bhp @ 10,500rpm # Torque: 77.4 ft-lb (107Nm) @ 8500rpm
    6. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      small turbine engines are relatively low efficiency. they have very good power density but a lot of heat just goes out the back rather than turning the wheels. check this out:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

      i like the part where it runs on almost any fuel available, including vegetable oil, without any modification.

      anyway, it doesn't seem like good starting point for a hybrid car, but it was used in locomotives for a while:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine-electric_ locomotive

    7. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Spoke · · Score: 1

      You are right. I totally missed the fact that they are injecting ethanol separately from the rest of the fuel.

      Is injecting pure ethanol that much better at cooling as it vaporizes than regular old gas mixed with ethanol? I can't imagine it being so...

    8. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Spoke · · Score: 1

      Turbo charging a car isn't that expensive. I can't see how it's much more expensive than a supercharger. If anything the price seems fairly similar.

      If you are experiencing turbo lag, it's because the engineers traded off low-end torque for high-end torque by sizing a bigger turbo which requires more exhaust pressure to spool. With a properly sized turbo, turbo-lag is a non-issue. Add direct injection which lets you increase the compression ratio and you gain a large amount of torque that you would have lost since most high output turbo charged cars significantly lower the compression to avoid detonation with high boost pressures.

      If superchargers were better than turbos on small engines, why is it that most small engines these days are turbo charged and not supercharged? I can name a half-dozen 4-cylinder turbocharged cars sold today but can't think of any supercharged cars. If they made the same power, same fuel efficiency, same reliability and were cheaper, I can guarantee that you would only see superchargers instead of turbos.

    9. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Spoke · · Score: 1

      Well, most modern diesels are direct injection now, and a lot are turbo charged, too. But yes, once they figure out NOx and particulate emissions, combined with a hybrid would also be a good combination for an efficient car that would still be peppy to drive.

    10. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfft, you mention MazdaSpeed 3 as your example. MazdaSpeed 6 > *

    11. Re:Buy a direct injection turbo charged car today! by KC7JHO · · Score: 1

      It is also used in the US M1 Tank, It is used for power to size/weight ratio not fuel economy. It generates a tremendous amount of power in a fairly small package but as you said most of the energy seems to be sent out the back of the machine. If you follow with in about 30 feet you will find your paint pealing off your hood and possibly your windshield warping soon.

  35. Erm.. Audi? by bmajik · · Score: 1

    You can go buy an engine right now that uses turbocharging, high static compression, and direct injection. The Audi 2.0T FSI engine, featured in the A3, A4, VW Jetta, and VW Passat feature this.

    Ethanol is an octane enhancer (which prevents pre-ignition), and lets you run either higher boost, higher static compression, or more ignition advance.. all of which make more power (or more efficiency), and none of which, even in combination, will triple the output OR fuel economy. Many auto enthusiasts are discovering the benefits of running E85 in their modified turbo charged cars, since it is effectively 104 octane fuel, but at normal fuel prices. Ethanol also burns cooler than gasoline so is especially nice on turbocharged engines where unrecaptured heat and absolute exhaust temperatures are your enemy.

    --
    My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    1. Re:Erm.. Audi? by ncttrnl · · Score: 1

      Don't forget you can but an ethanol injection system in the aftermarket for 300 bucks. It may not be as efficient as direct injecting the ethanol but the turbocharging guys have been doing this for years to fight knock. Most kits come with controllers that adjust the ethanol injection depending on intake temp, boost, and sometimes even knock levels.

  36. you dopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, you dipshits know everything.....why are folks even bothering to go to MIT!?!?!

    Knock sensors and computers don't add power, they give the engine as much advance as it can take short of detonation.

    This sort of setup will inject a cooling shot of alcohol AT THE PRECISE BEST TIME (unlike the WWII fighters which just poured it on like some nitro funny car's MECHANICAL injection)

    This is a good idea which MIGHT make a very measurable difference in future cars.....

    So unless you're a mechanical engineer WITH DECADES OF EXPERIENCE IMPROVING THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE, STFU.

    1. Re:you dopes by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Lol!

      MIT won't give you your tutition back?

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
  37. This is not news, or a discovery. by a4r6 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    For anyone that knows their stuff about car engines, this article is a joke.

    Both turbocharging and direct injection are preexisting technologies, and neither looks particularly impressive. Indeed, used separately, they would lead to only marginal improvements in the performance of an internal-combustion engine. Really? So there aren't people slapping large turbochargers on little 3 liter supra engines and increasing the engine output 5-fold? Or is that only marginal?

    That aside, the problem with this is that a turbocharged engine at full output is very inefficient. A larger naturally aspirated engine will always be more efficient than the small turbocharged engine of the same maximum output. That's because a lot of energy is wasted compressing the intake charge, more than can be made up for with the displacement decrease, even with the newest fanciest garrett turbos. The only merit efficiency-wise of turbo engines is engine efficiency at low loads (when the engine is not under boost) relative to the maximum output. There is obviously a balance to be struck here, and that's why 18 wheelers have big v8's with turbo chargers, rather than even bigger engines or smaller engines running under high pressure. Designing a motor vehicle is always a balancing act, and in most cases a turbo is not helpful because of the cost, reliability and other shortcomings versus the benefits.

    Recently, car makers have started using direct injection to combat preignition that can damage an engine. It allows them to run leaner fuel mixtures, higher compression and more aggressive spark timing, improving the power/efficiency of engines. Direct injection has the exact same benefit with turbocharging. There are no compounded benefits from mixing the two technologies.
    1. Re:This is not news, or a discovery. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I remember, I think many diesel engines actually get *more* efficient with the addition of a turbocharger, which is a big reason why you see them more frequenty on diesels than spark-ignited engines.

    2. Re:This is not news, or a discovery. by JustAnEngineer · · Score: 1

      That aside, the problem with this is that a turbocharged engine at full output is very inefficient. A larger naturally aspirated engine will always be more efficient than the small turbocharged engine of the same maximum output. That's because a lot of energy is wasted compressing the intake charge, more than can be made up for with the displacement decrease, even with the newest fanciest garrett turbos. The only merit efficiency-wise of turbo engines is engine efficiency at low loads (when the engine is not under boost) relative to the maximum output. There is obviously a balance to be struck here, and that's why 18 wheelers have big v8's with turbo chargers, rather than even bigger engines or smaller engines running under high pressure. Designing a motor vehicle is always a balancing act, and in most cases a turbo is not helpful because of the cost, reliability and other shortcomings versus the benefits.

      This isn't really correct. The turbo does increase efficiency because the engine is always dumping a lot of heat into the exhaust that just goes out the tailpipe. The turbo uses this heat energy to compress the intake charge. This isn't wasting energy, but using energy that would otherwise be wasted. Tht is why heavy duty trucks use turbos - that lets the engine use more of the fuel energy for moving the vehicle and less for heating up the air. They also use big inline 6 engines, never V8s, and they use very high pressure - at least twice atmospheric pressure.

      That efficiency gain may be fairly small on a gasoline engine, which is more due to how the turbo system is set up than anything (full boost comes at much less than full engine power, for drivability - that means that too much boost would come at full power so the system frequently dumps compressed air to the outside before it reaches the engine, which limits any effiicency gain). A semi engine will have a turbo system designed to come on full at maximum power, which is pretty close to where the engine operates when the truck is going down the road. That lets the entire intake and exhaust system be optimized for where the engine runs most often and that gives efficiency.

    3. Re:This is not news, or a discovery. by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1
      everyone here is switching from back and forth from gas to diesiel I assume because they don't understand the article (ok it is so dumbed down to be meaningless.) or don't understand the difference. Gas is measured in octane, diesiel in C-Tane (sp?). in a gas engine, because of charge density (% oxygen) of the incoming air, can run much lower compression ratio with boost, since their is more energy density. In a diesiel the advantage is not only charge density (not as important, because they tend to rain lean anyway) but the compression ratio, direct injection lets you control the combustion point, the higher the compression, the longer you can inject diesiel the more power per stroke.

      so in a normal diesiel you can increase you compression ratio with boost. in a normal gas, you can decrease your compression ratio with boost, and still get the same/more power. The article is about doing both, IE use high octane fuel (= low cTane, generaly makes lowsy diesiel fuel) but with direct injection prevent pre-ignition and with high compression get a longer/higher burn rate. so use the diesiel burn rate, with the high energy density of gas.

      The turbo does increase efficiency because the engine is always dumping a lot of heat into the exhaust

      no, the whole free energy thing is a strech to say the least. The extra heat from the exhaust is a negative, since it decreases the charge density (amount of oxygen) taken into the combustion chamber. the "free energy" is the unspent exhaust expansion energy (ok heat whatever) but that increases the backpressure that causes less pressure differential (IE power) output from the engine.

      That is why a inter-cooler is soo important in a turbo, the heat has to be removed before use, or the air is too hot, the oxygen density would suck, now you cool the hot air, and you can get more O2 in for combustion. Get more 02 into a gas engine, more to burn, more gas, more power. get more Air into a diesiel, higher combustion, better/longer burn more diesiel burned. Run higher Compression and higher boost with gas would normally cause pre combustion if the gas is present when compressed (at low octane=higher ctane), but its not since it is (now proposed to be) direct injected during compression.
  38. No, the story is exactly the same by GameMaster · · Score: 1

    This link was posted by someone else responding to the original post.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire

    If you read the section, you'll notice that, even without fancy computer controls, they had designed the engine to retard timing when the reservoir was empty. The reason they discontinued the engine really was that people just didn't bother keeping the thing filled.

    Unfortunately, people are lazy. Unless the system is designed to kill the engine when the ethanol tank runs dry they won't bother keeping it full. If you did kill the engine that way they would, simply, refuse to buy the car (as was the case in the 60's).

    -GameMaster

    --

    Rules of Conduct:
    #1 - The DM is always right.
    #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    1. Re:No, the story is exactly the same by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, people are lazy. Unless the system is designed to kill the engine when the ethanol tank runs dry they won't bother keeping it full. If you did kill the engine that way they would, simply, refuse to buy the car (as was the case in the 60's).

      The difference is that gas was pennies in the sixties and is over three dollars a gallon right now (at least in NoCal) and is probably going to continue to rise over the years ahead.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:No, the story is exactly the same by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      True, that and an increased public awareness of the political problems presented by foreign oil may help improve the acceptance of a system like this. It has been suggested in another post that pure water injection could be used (and has been used in the past) to provide a similar advantage. This has the advantage of being a much more plentiful resource and would free up more of that ethanol to be used as a fuel rather than a coolant (also displacing more of that foreign oil). I think I like that idea better.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    3. Re:No, the story is exactly the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Three Dollars a gallon is a pittance - try pricing the alternatives!

    4. Re:No, the story is exactly the same by tsa · · Score: 1

      The difference is that gas was pennies in the sixties and is over three dollars a gallon right now

      You don't know how good you have it. Here in the Netherlands I pay 1.35 Euros a litre, which amounts to 6.5 USD a gallon.

      --

      -- Cheers!

  39. Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Turbocharging already gives about a 2-to-1 boost while avoiding the knock limits - and it doesn't require a second tank, just higher-octane gas (which, at current price levels, doesn't command all that high a cost premium over regular). So the claimed 3-to-1 boost, while a significant further improvement worth going after, isn't as big a jolt as the standalone description would make you think.

    (My commuting vehicle is a 4-cylinder turbo - and 15 years old. It has 100k miles on it and I'm rebuilding the vehicle around it at a cost of about 8 grand - suspension, tranny, major engine service - because I can't get an equivalently performing vehicle on the current new market at any reasonable price. That's apparently because adding a turbo to a small passenger car has enough downsides that the public isn't interested. (Or perhaps because the auto companies' marketing departments are totally clueless.))

    Direct WATER injection of a high-compression ALSO gets this 3-to-1 or better boost. It has the same advantages as the alcohol injection at less cost: Higher power, reduced preignition, etc. But you can go even farther, since water won't, itself, combust.

    You also get more efficient transfer of heat to mechanical advantage by using the vaporization of the water powered by the heat of the regular fuel.

    And water is easier to find and cheaper than ethanol when it comes time to refil the second tank.

    This has been well known for a long time.

    The reason it hasn't been built into production engines so far: It requires two tanks of consumables. Run out of one and the engine has to stop, or run in a degraded mode. Auto makers haven't wanted to add that sort of operational complexity due to liability and consumer satisfaction issues.

    This "new" idea has the same drawback, only moreso, since the second consumable liquid is less generally available and already highly regulated.

    = = = =

    On the other hand, we've now got much more flexible computerized control of the engine. With the compression boost provided by a turbo (which can be disabled by software control if the alcohol or water runs out), a car with an empty second-fuel tank can still run while meeting emission requirements and without self-damage. You'd lose 2/3 of your peak power and your MPG would drop. But the car would remain legal, street-legal, and unharmed.

    So perhaps it's time to revisit direct cooling-fluid injection, dual-consumable, internal combustion engines.

    But if so, unless research shows that ethanol has some BIG advantage over water, using water would have the advantage that you don't need to modify the support infrastructure.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      You make a lot of good points, especially about using water rather than ethanol. You might find this interesting:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire

      It was posted by someone else in another post. You'll note that even without computer controls they were able to design their system to retard timing in the even the ethanol tank went dry. In the end, the problem that lead to the ceasing of production was, apparently, sociological. People were to lazy/annoyed to bother keeping the second tank full.

      Higher gas prices and better consumer awareness of the political importance of using less foreign oil may help to ease the adoption of a similar system. We'll have to see if it gets picked up by any of the major car makers.

      -GameMaster

      --

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    2. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      As an amendment to my previous post, I came across a reason for using, at least, a 50/50 mix of ethanol with your water injection. It turns out that the ethanol provides some measure of anti-freeze effect to the mix. This would be extremely important in many parts of the world as the temperature often falls below the freezing point in populated areas. Still, even a 50/50 mix is an improvement to using pure ethanol that could, otherwise, be used in the fuel and increases the cost of the mix.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    3. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Massive146 · · Score: 1

      "You also get more efficient transfer of heat to mechanical advantage by using the vaporization of the water powered by the heat of the regular fuel." I don't believe this is true. When water is converted to steam, some energy is used up in the heat of vaporization. This energy doesn't increase the temperature of the water at all, it is the energy required for the phase change. So instead of that energy being used to increase the combustion temperature (thus increasing combustion pressure), it is used up converting the injected water (or any injected liquid) to a gas. And I know that by adding more fuel to the air/fuel mixture, or injecting water into the combustion chamber lowers the combustion temperature, which, unless there is something more going on, will reduce combustion pressures (and then reduce the torque transmitted to the crank) Let me know if I am forgeting/missing something.

    4. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Spoke · · Score: 1

      Water injection primary benefit is to increase knock resistance. If power output isn't being limited by knock, then you won't pick up any additional power by injecting water. It will steam clean your combustion chamber and it can reduce emissions, though.

      Water injection will also typically slow down combustion so that more timing is required for the same amount of air/fuel, though.

      I am still surprised that there isn't any manufacturer selling cars with water injection. You can often even inject plain old washer fluid. People usually remember to keep that filled, don't they?

    5. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "You also get more efficient transfer of heat to mechanical advantage by using the vaporization of the water powered by the heat of the regular fuel." I don't believe this is true. When water is converted to steam, some energy is used up in the heat of vaporization. This energy doesn't increase the temperature of the water at all, it is the energy required for the phase change. So instead of that energy being used to increase the combustion temperature (thus increasing combustion pressure), it is used up converting the injected water (or any injected liquid) to a gas.

      The vaporization increases the volume of gas enormously - in an enclosed space. That increases the pressure drastically. So the heat of vaporization did a bunch of work without necessarily changing the temperature of the water. Meanwhile, lowering the combustion front propagation rate lets the combustion run at a higher temperature - adding more of the heat at high temperature and improving the carnot cycle efficiency. (The water is under considerable pressure and the drops are microscopic. So they get very hot BEFORE they boil. Further, things are happening so fast they can superheat far above even the raised boiling point from the local pressure.)

      Think of the liquid water as working fluid you didn't have to compress before ignition.

      I haven't done any thermogoshdarnic calculations to check this. Perhaps somebody with more knowledge can fill us all in.

      Meanwhile, steam engines that end up with the steam superheated are noted for efficiency, despite having the same heat-of-vaporization issues - even those that don't get to scavenge low-temperature heat for the vaporization step. Unlike ordinary steam engines, internal-combustion droplet-flash-boiling can add most of the heat of vaporization at a temperature far above the softening point of the metals containing the process.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    6. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by njh · · Score: 1

      Cars already have two reservoirs of water - the windscreen water and the radiator. With a little care perhaps these can be all combined into a single 'pour water in here when the light comes on' interface?

    7. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm curious as to what you drive that's 15 years old and can't be beaten by today's market.

      There are about 4 MY07 and MY08 cars out that are turbo charged and under 25K. I'm talking ~250HP vehicles here. Audi, BMW, Volvo, Saab, Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW, Mazda...the list goes on and on with consumer turbo cars. You're not looking hard enough if you can't find something.

      And if you're from Oz, Europe, or Asia, the list is MUCH better.

      So what is this exotic super-mobile that none of the dozens of factory turbo charged vehicles can touch, because I want one. ;)

    8. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Well, washer fluid and coolant are not the same thing. Coolant has water pump lubricants in it and doesn't make a very good cleaning solution. Also, I don't think I would want my coolant as a "consumable". If you run out of coolant you'll run out of engine very fast.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    9. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by smithmc · · Score: 1

        Cars already have two reservoirs of water - the windscreen water and the radiator.

      Um, neither of those contain pure water, at least not in my car. The windscreen "water" is blue (antifreezes, solvents, etc.) and the radiator "water" is pink (VW G12 coolant).

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    10. Re:Equivalent (but inferior) to WATER injection. by smithmc · · Score: 1

        You make a lot of good points, especially about using water rather than ethanol. You might find this interesting:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire [wikipedia.org]

      It was posted by someone else in another post. You'll note that even without computer controls they were able to design their system to retard timing in the even the ethanol tank went dry. In the end, the problem that lead to the ceasing of production was, apparently, sociological. People were to lazy/annoyed to bother keeping the second tank full.


      Wow, and with all this complicated hardware they managed to get a whopping one horsepower per cube. Yeah, let's get all over this, immediately.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
  40. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by hardburn · · Score: 3, Informative

    The '07 MINI Cooper'S has a 4 cylinder 1.6 liter direct-injected twin-turbocharged engine - and since most fuel in the US now contains 10% ethanol, I'd say the "experimental" technology these guys are pushing is already out there in at least one production car

    As the article notes, direct injection has been around for a while (since the '50s). Turbochargers are older than that. The idea here uses direct injection in a novel way.

    . . . just about all modern cars have an anti-knock sensor that can richen the mixture if it detects signs of knocking - but with high octane gasoline - it only very rarely has to actually do that - so the "problem" of knocking isn't really there.

    The problem isn't stopping current engines from knocking. The problem is to increase compression ratios or boost of an engine without introducing knocking. Increasing the amount of gas in the mixture only makes your fuel efficiency worse.

    The key to this new idea is that the ethanol is injected separately from the regular gas (specifically, during the compression phase). Naturally, you'll need a separate tank of ethanol, which the article claims would need to be replenished about as often as a oil change.

    As we know from thermodynamics, matter going through a phase change from liquid to vapor will suck away a lot energy. Ethanol has the nice quality that it will go through a phase change at a lower temperature compared to water.

    Thermodynamics also tells us that as pressure increases, so does temperature. In a normal engine, the piston will compress the fuel/air mixture, thus increasing the temperature of the mixture. If the temperature gets too high, the mixture will ignite on its own. This is more likely if your engine has too high of a compression ratio or you're using some kind of boost system (turbo or superchargers). This is why cars with turbos often have intercoolers.

    What they're doing here is increasing the compression ratio and/or adding a turbo. You can choose to slap on an intercooler if you wish. As the piston goes through the compression stroke, the fuel/air mixture gets hotter as before, but then some ethanol is injected, which vaporizes, thus cooling the mixture. The mixture is then ignited by a spark plug normally. Brilliant.

    --
    Not a typewriter
  41. Carnot Efficiency by truckaxle · · Score: 1

    by combining them, and augmenting them with a novel way to use a small amount of ethanol, Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine

    What did someone overturn Carnot cycle efficiency?

    You can always detect hype when they completely disregard the second law of thermo.

    Some brilliant scholar once said "In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
    1. Re:Carnot Efficiency by truckaxle · · Score: 1

      Err... never mind I RTFA - Power based claim.... ok shame me.

  42. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Alien+Being · · Score: 2, Informative

    Knock sensors detect detonation, not pre-ignition. Besides, richening the mixture defeats efficiency. The idea is to run lean without detonation.

    Injecting ethanol separately from the gasoline is different than mixing it, and it's nothing new. Oldsmobile made turbocharged cars with alcohol injection 40 years ago and people have been adding it to turbo Buicks for a long time as well.

    Direct injection's time will come, but I'd wait at least a decade for the industry to be ready to handle 1000psi gasoline rails.

    Electric water and oil pumps are a suckers bet. Don't plan on a long life for that engine.

  43. Credit where credit is due by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Water (yes, water) or ethanol injection are already commonly used by tuners to allow them to run at higher compression ratios without preignition. (which is really a step beyond knock -- TFA really doesn't describe the problem accurately).

    Once again MIT is trying to claim credit for things others have been using in practice for a long time.

  44. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just proved his point with your link...

  45. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

    That's great...



    ...if you want to drive a subcompact. What about for those of us who want to drive a midsize car like my Avalanche?
  46. "25% more efficient" by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

    In the second half of the article they get down to brass tacks. "A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine."

    That sounds a lot less dramatic than "a design that could triple the power of a test engine."

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
  47. that sounds awesome! too bad its wrong by hildi · · Score: 0

    the valves are using cams, they are not infinitely variable computer controller by some kinda magic solenoid or motor or whatever. people have talked about doing that sort of thing but the cost, compared to the good old fashioned cam shaft, would be pretty expensive. look in google groups for more info on this.

    1. Re:that sounds awesome! too bad its wrong by Mercedes308 · · Score: 1

      I've seen a marine diesel than used main valve solenoids. The failure rate and replacement cost was quite a show stopper apparently. I can't for the life of me remember the make of the engine at the moment.

      --
      And no, I couldn't give a shit what my karma is.
  48. TDI by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    == "Turbo Direct Injection." Used in volume by VW and others for more than a decade. It is for Diesels, the same thing for gas is called FSI ("Fuel Stratified Injection") or TSI ("Twin/Turbo Charged Stratified Injection".)

    Now tell me again why high gas prices are bad for the economy.

  49. What About Failures? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    The question that I have is what happens if the direct injection ethanol system should fail or if the tank of ethanol runs dry while the vehicle is in operation? Would it not be difficult and add substantially to the complexity of the engine to detect that the ethanol system has failed and thereby automatically take steps to reduce the compression ratios or else suffer severe knocking?

    If this technology is to be widely deployed then it must be able to degrade and fail gracefully without causing damage to the engine. It would also be desirable for the mechanism by which the engine is switched back to regular compression ratios to be highly reliable or else the engine must be designed in such a way that damage cannot occur if the ethanol system fails.

    Another interesting question is the effect of more alcohols burning in the engine and producing more water vapors which will serve to foul the oil more quickly than normally occurs in a plain gasoline engine (with minimal ethanol added to the gasoline). The oil filters are designed to handle some water contamination but this type of engine would require a more substantial filter to handle the increased load.

    1. Re:What About Failures? by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      I believe this is addressed in the article but if not here goes.

      This link was posted, by someone else, earlier in the discussion:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine# Turbo_Jetfire

      it definitely addresses you issue. Even before computer controls, they were able to retard the timing automatically. Today, it would only require the addition of a simple gauge in the ethanol tank to detect if it is empty.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    2. Re:What About Failures? by squizzar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As far as I know most modern engines are pretty much entirely computer controlled. The added complexity is the few lines of code that detect the ethanol tank is empty and switch to a different set of performance characteristics (lower boost, different fuelling and timing etc.) Given that a lot of cars will modify their performance based on driving style (K-series Rover engines I know for a fact do) - drive hard and the engine will respond quicker, drive conservatively and it will favour economy and that the difference between engines of similar capacities and differing performance is quite often determined electronically, it seems that the electronics are in charge of these decisions, so there is little complexity to be added. The simplest solution is to make an empty ethanol tank a failure that drops the engine into the limp-home mode (usually restricted to about 30 Mph) until it is refilled.

  50. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The 2007 Saturn Sky Redline also has a DI turbocharged engine, and it does manage to crank 260 HP out of 2.0 liters, making it GM's highest-output engine for its size ever, but it still gets pitiful fuel economy (some reviewers got 14.3 MPG average during their test). The 6.0 L 400 HP standard corvette engine, which is naturally-aspirated and pushrod-controlled, has only slightly inferior fuel economy.

  51. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I read your post it occured to me, why just ethanol? I was thinking acetone.

    Why not any organic solvent that easily vaporizes? Ever worked in a chem lab, acetone vaporizes and leaves the glassware (and your skin) COLD!

    Google acetone in gasoline.

  52. Preignition is NOT knock by Alizarin+Erythrosin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Preignition is when the fuel/air charge ignites at the point of lowest compression, and then the engine has to compress this hot, expanded gas. This is how holes get burned in pistons. Knock is detonation, where the fuel/air charge does not burn in a controlled flame front, i.e. it suddenly detonates. It requires that timing advance be backed down a bit.

    --
    There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
    1. Re:Preignition is NOT knock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did some searches and there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of either of these terms, but yours is not a common one.

    2. Re:Preignition is NOT knock by Alizarin+Erythrosin · · Score: 1

      OK then, let's try some more information then. You can read what I've written below, or you can go here for more info (a very good article).

      Knock and detonation are two different names for the same effect. It is also frequently called "pinging" due to the characteristic sound of detonation. Note that a knock sensor just listens for the specific frequency (approximately 6.4KHz according to that article) of the detonation "ping".

      Detonation is when part of the unburned/partially burned fuel air mix reaches a critical pressure and temperature and transitions from a normal burning process to an explosive detonation that progresses at near the speed of sound. This causes huge increases in cylinder pressure. Detonation always occurs near peak cylinder pressure with the engine under load, but after the spark fires. It is most likely to occur near the peak torque rpm of the engine.

      Pre-ignition by definition is the early ignition of the fuel air mix (before the spark fires) and can be caused by any source of excessive heat in the combustion chamber such as a hot spot from carbon build up, or a hot glowing spark plug due to the excessive heat generated by detonation, use of nitrous oxide or too much boost, etc. This will usually occur at the time of lowest cylinder compression, i.e. the bottom of the intake stroke. This is because it gets harder to light off the air/fuel charge the more you compress it.

      It is not uncommon for uncontrolled knock to trigger pre-ignition. Severe pre-ignition can destroy an engine in litterally seconds, it usually melts a hole in a piston and the hole looks like it was caused by a welding torch (i.e. obvious melting of the metal). Because there's no tell-tale "knock," preignition is a silent killer.

      Detonation usually breaks things, and if it holes a piston it will simply knock a piece out of the piston like it had been struck by a hammer. One of the most common modes of failure is for the sharp pressure increases due to detonation to break the piston rings, and or the upper ring land on the piston. It can also beat out oil from bearings leading to a bottom end failure, or blow head gaskets, and break cylinder walls.

      --
      There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
  53. They ARE late to the game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The newest Audi/VW 2.0T motor, found in at least the A3 (plus A4 now?), GTI, and Jetta, is a direct-injected turbo motor. A simple chip upgrade puts it at 260HP for 2 litres, and is basically torque limited by the stock transmissions. Get manual if you really want to tune on that platform.

  54. High tech engines by asc99c · · Score: 1

    The article has some interesting technology but most engines still aren't making decent use of the existing technologies. The US seems to lag in engine technology, but it's not even just down to US manufacturers. Just picking a car I would consider buying - the Honda S2000 - here in the UK, it uses a 2 litre engine, while the US model uses a bigger 2.2 litre that produces less power, much less torque, has a much lower redline, and worse fuel consumption to top it off. I'm not singling out the US here though, it's only a little behind.

    The S2000's 2 litre engine is regarded as one of the best 4 cylinder engines around. It develops more power (240bhp) than a typical 3 litre V6 and being substantially lighter than a 4 litre V8 means even they don't have much of an advantage. I'd love to see that sort of engine in some more practical cars. The problem is it's easier to play the numbers game and put in the 3 litre V6.

    1. Re:High tech engines by JustAnEngineer · · Score: 1

      Wow. So many comments in this thread. I had to pick this one, just because I actually have one of those "low-powered" S2000's here in the US. The 2.2 liter engine produces the same power and a little more torque than the 2.0 liter that is used in Europe. The difference is that it comes about 1000rpm lower. I don't know about fuel consumption exactly, but I don't think there was any significant change between the 2.0 liter (pre-2004 here) and the 2.2 liter. Redline isn't too different either - 9000 rpm for the 2.0 liter and 8000 rpm for the 2.2 liter. Admittely, it's much cooler to brag about a 9000 rpm redline, but the newer engine is still one of the highest revving car engines on the market and has the second highest specific power (power/displacement) of a production car engine (after the 2.0 liter S2000 engine).

      Myself, I'm happy with the 2.2 liter engine as it's a little more pleasant in stop and go driving and still goes like stink when the road is clear. I wouldn't have complained about the 2.0 liter engine either though, if that was what came in the car.

      Also, that engine would be horrible in a more practical car. The torque is fine for a car that weighs 2850 lbs, but not for a four door hardtop that comes in at 3500. It would end up feeling less fun to drive than using one of Honda's more conventional engines that have a more balanced power output. To make that practical car faster you need both the power and the torque of that 3 liter V6, or else a turbocharged four-cylinder that can give the same kind of torque (compare the Mitsubishi & Subaru turbo fours with the Honda/Toyota/Nissan 3.5 liter V6 engines - pretty similar numbers).

      I got the S2000 for the engine, but I wouldn't have if it was in a car that wasn't suited for it. Developing the entire car is much more than good engine+good car = good package. There are lots of details to get just right.

    2. Re:High tech engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.. More practical like my 06 Civic SI. Granted its only 200 HP from a 2 liter NA engine, but it is one of the funnest cars/price, and is in no way a horrible practical car. Yes, when I have 4 people and a loaded trunk it's not as fun but it gets us where were going just fine.

    3. Re:High tech engines by asc99c · · Score: 1

      Feeling pretty foolish now - I hadn't checked units on the figures I was giving - the US S2000 is indeed 162 lb ft torque which is more than 208 Nm for the UK model. US 237 bhp is spot on the UK 240 PS. Fuel economy is also about the same because US gallons are smaller than UK gallons.

      However, regarding practicality, I wasn't necessarily talking about putting the same engine in a big four seater car. The S2000 is just a bit too small - I have to have the seat fully back and steering wheel fully up and it's still cramped. My current car is a Honda Prelude which is just that little bit bigger in the front which makes it much more comfortable. It's also a 2+2 but only one rear seat would ever be usable. The boot is a much better size as well. As much as I hate hot hatches, I would like to see the S2000 engine in the Civic Type R.

  55. How is this New ? by ray-auch · · Score: 1

    Both turbocharging and direct injection are preexisting technologies, and neither looks particularly impressive... by combining them


    How the heck is that new ?

    WTF do they think "TDI" stands for ? (hint - something to do with Turbo and Direct and Injection perhaps ?)

    Oh, wait it's MIT, they're American - that place where fleet average fuel economy is currently going DOWN and heading for less than half that of the EU and Japan. Probably they think the D stands for Diesel (wrong), and every good US auto maker knows you can't build a diesel vehicle with anything less than 18 wheels...

    On the petrol side, seems like they missed the engine-of-the-year awards (for a couple of years) too: http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/ 18_2.html (the VW FSI is a direct injection turbo petrol engine).

    These folks really do need to get out more, and then come up with something new - claiming that combining turbo and direct injection is new is just laughable.

    1. Re:How is this New ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhm... Turbo Diesel + Intercooler/Injection, normally. :)

    2. Re:How is this New ? by ray-auch · · Score: 1

      From the site of company that invented it (see eg. here for history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharged_Direct_I njection) it clearly stands for Turbo Direct Injection:

      http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/technology_gl ossary/Pumpe_Duse

      Like I said, some people _think_ the D is for diesel, but it's not. People researching engine design ought to know that though.

  56. Looks fishy by sheddd · · Score: 1

    Ethanol's intake temperature benefits are not new knowledge. Direct injection isn't required for a benefit; I suppose it's possible they're found something new but I doubt it; probably just an ethanol hyping professor. I'd perk up if he had any amazing efficiency or hp/cubic inch numbers to back up his claims.

  57. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by autocracy · · Score: 1

    Well, for the record, completely mechanical thermostats have been a part of engine cooling systems since... well, probably nearly as long as enginges have been around. The radiator in a car is designed in about the worst-case scenario. The thermostat valve is definitely much wider while driving in Texas in the summer than Maine in the winter, but the engine temp would remain the same. If the thermostat wasn't there, my engine might never get warm in the winter (esp. consider the size of the radiator exposure on my car).

    --
    SIG: HUP
  58. Mod parent up! by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    +5, Funny.

  59. Yes, THAT Cobasys by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 4, Informative
    You are quoting Cobasys' press about itself. This is not unlike citing the "Live green, go yellow" campaign as "proof" that GM's products are all ecologically beneficial, or "Carbon dioxide, we call it life" as proof that Exxon-Mobil is likewise.

    Other people have different things to say about Cobasys:

    Boschert describes many obstacles hindering widespread production of PHEVs, but none are more important to her than the difficulties that EV developers encounter when they try to obtain large-format nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries.

    And this, which killed the electric RAV4:

    Chevron then put the battery rights under control of a Joint Venture, "COBASYS," and decided to fund a lawsuit against large-format (electric car battery) competitors such as Toyota-Panasonic.
    Chevron's lawsuit led to a settlement agreement with PEVE (and Sanyo, etc.) whereby Toyota paid $30M to Chevron, Toyota was granted the rights to use "small-format" batteries on the Prius, and Toyota agreed not to build "large-format" versions of its batteries (needed for plug-in cars) for export to the U.S. until 2014.
    There's plenty more, just perform the search suggested at the first link.

    It appears likely that the advances in Li-ion and carbon-backed lead-acid will make it far more difficult to keep the next round of batteries out of vehicles. Regardless, the delay in availability of mass-market PHEV's and EV's has meant many billions or tens of billions of dollars in additional revenue for the oil companies and oil exporting nations. (The current administration shares responsibility for e.g. terminating the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, which would have delivered 80-MPG sedans about.... now.)

    The take-home lesson? Don't believe everything you read.
    1. Re:Yes, THAT Cobasys by Rei · · Score: 1, Troll

      "You are quoting Cobasys' press about itself. This is not unlike citing the "Live green, go yellow" campaign as "proof" that GM's products are all ecologically beneficial, or "Carbon dioxide, we call it life" as proof that Exxon-Mobil is likewise."

      Yes, that would have been a perfect response... had my post only quoted from their website. It didn't. Hence, straw man.

      "Chevron then put the battery rights under control of a Joint Venture, "COBASYS," and decided to fund a lawsuit against large-format (electric car battery) competitors such as Toyota-Panasonic."

      That can be summed up as follows:

      NEWS FLASH! Company with patents sues competitor who infringes on said patents, Details at eleven!"

      It would be news if Toyota had infringed on their patents, there was money to be made, and they *didn't* sue. Hell, they don't even meet the definition of a scummy patent holding company, as they *actually do* make products in the field that their patents are in, and are ramping up their operations. Their actions don't suggest ulterior motive at all. Evidence of an ulterior motive would be them *not* doing something that they could have made money on (in order to help Chevron) -- for example, *not* making batteries for hybrids when they have the patents for them. Here, they're being run of the mill, money-grabbing corporate pigs, looking out for *their* bottom line.

      It appears likely that the advances in Li-ion and carbon-backed lead-acid will make it far more difficult to keep the next round of batteries out of vehicles.

      NiMH are advancing as well, although being an older tech, odds are that they don't have as far to go (although one could have said the same about lead-acid batteries). Carbon-backed lead acid is not *that* impressive, and if it has the typical lead-acid chemistry reliability, let me be the first to say "no thank you" to a car full of them. Li-ion: see this post for my take on Li-ion.

      It's always easy to say "NotYetHereTech will revolutionize the world!" Unfortunately, NotYetHereTech, more often than not, never comes or is obsolete by the time it does. Thankfully, there are so many NotYetHereTechs out there that the world still changes -- it's just a bad idea to back only one horse.

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
    2. Re:Yes, THAT Cobasys by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      "It is also important to note that there are large-format NiMH batteries available which are not subject to control by the Cobasys patents. Electro Energy Inc. and Nilar Inc. both manufacture large-format NiMH batteries"

      That article is really interesting. Are the Nilar batteries less interesting to EV manufacturers? I get the sense that NiHM batteries are really only preferred today, but that in a few years, the Li-Ion will be preferred, assuming it proves as durable as NiHM.

      Thanks for the link.

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  60. muscular engines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what does that say about the size of your hard disk?

  61. hype by serbanp · · Score: 1

    Just a MIT professor trolling for grant money, why is this news?

    B.t.w., many (most) car engines now running in US could be tweaked to increase their efficiency. Unfortunately, it looks like the efficiency peak and the emissions dip do not coincide and the car makers design their engines to lower the emissions (thus running the engine at a lower efficiency than possible).

    B.t.w., a higher compression ratio obviously improves the cycle's yield, that's common knowledge. Unfortunately, unless the engine is fed pure oxygen, the NOx residues increase dramatically.

  62. Power vs Efficiency by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine.
    [...]
    A vehicle that used this approach would operate around 25 percent more efficiently than a vehicle with a conventional engine.


    Triple the power doesn't mean triple the efficiency, if "antiknock" means more fuel is burned. 25% more efficient is more like it. Fuelcells are typically 50% fuel efficient, compared with 40% maximum (to date) internal combustion. That's about a 25% efficiency increase, it's already here, and it's just getting started. Plus the drastically reduced pollution (especially Greenhouse pollution) means huge energy efficiency at the end of the cycle, when climate disasters are avoided. Meanwhile fuelcell efficiency is just getting started, racing towards 80% (over triple typical internal combustion efficiency) and beyond.

    So while this advance might be good for the market that's not ready for fuelcells, the fuelcells still look better. But at least we've got scientists and engineers working on fuel efficiency, and not just ways to squander the remaining fuel for combustion engines. That's a big change in efficiency in itself.
    --

    --
    make install -not war

  63. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by coredog64 · · Score: 1

    The benefit of ethanol isn't that it's being burned in concert with gasoline, it's that it can be added to the cylinder to combat preignition. You're also incorrect on how ECMs prevent knock damage. When the ECM senses knock (via the knock sensor) it will retard the timing until the knocking goes away. Adding more fuel _might_ help with knock as it will reduce the overall temperature of the burned mixture but that's counterproductive in that it negatively impacts fuel economy and emissions. Computer controlled intake and exhaust valves aren't exactly new -- the technology is known as "variable valve timing" and has been showing up in production automobiles since the 80s (I'll grant that computer controlled, infinite profile timing is more recent, but it still dates back to ~ 2000). Call me when the MINI shows up with computer controlled pnuematic or electric valves ;)

  64. Vs. Hybrids? by dthx1138 · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure their claim about this being a better solution than hybrids is justfied. Looking at the Honda Civic and Toyota Camry, the Hybrid versions offer approx. 45% better fuel efficiency, much higher than the 25% quoted in the article for this technology.

    Additionally, this technology does not eliminate idling (especially on ignition with a cold and poorly-performing catalytic convertor) which is one of the things about hybrids that gets them a high air air pollution rating (AT-PZEV from the CA Air Resources Board).

    Still, because of the low cost this technology might be a great benefit to large cars which are so expensive already, even in addition to hybrid systems.

    --
    I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
    1. Re:Vs. Hybrids? by vidarh · · Score: 1

      Their argument is that it is "better" because it is cheaper, and hence likely to get far wider market penetration and so have a larger impact on gasoline use, not that it's more efficient per engine. There also appears to be nothing in this technology that would prevent it from being combined with hybrid technology to get even larger boosts in fuel efficiency.

    2. Re:Vs. Hybrids? by dthx1138 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the cost of adding a hybrid drivetrain is around $3k which is about double the estimated cost to add the proposed system, and you get nearly double the efficiency gain with a hybrid, so it's not like this blows hybrids out of the water is all I'm saying.

      And I mentioned it could be used in concert with hybrid technology.

      --
      I just found the box to change my sig. Um.... [timeless witticism].
  65. NiMH Batteries? by kad77 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So producing hundreds of thousands of tons of NiMH or LiON batteries for cars is better for the planet than buying a 40mpg gasoline vehicle...

    I've got some new crack-vitamins for you!

    1. Re:NiMH Batteries? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the value of the raw materials and the current success of car battery recycling, yes.

      Now where's my crack?

  66. Better than water injection by g8oz · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    The MIT researchers focused on a key property of ethanol: when it vaporizes, it has a pronounced cooling effect, much like rubbing alcohol evaporating from skin. Increased turbocharging and cylinder compression raise the temperature in the cylinder, which is why they lead to knock. But Cohn and his colleagues found that if ethanol is introduced into the combustion chamber at just the right moment through the relatively new technology of direct injection, it keeps the temperature down, preventing spontaneous combustion. Similar approaches, some of which used water to cool the cylinder, had been tried before. But the combination of direct injection and ethanol, Cohn says, had much more dramatic results.


  67. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by moonbender · · Score: 1

    Midsize. Riiiiiight.

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    Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
  68. At least it isn't a fullsize gas guzzler by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

    ...like this truck.

    http://www.backcountryjournal.com/21742.jpg

    And it was much better than my compact Maxima.

  69. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by RobinH · · Score: 1

    I imagine it's probably because ethanol is a renewable fuel that we have tons of and actually contributes to the combustion with less emissions.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  70. you can buy one already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A google search for "alcohol injection" will yield hundreds of his, like this one:

    http://www.rjcracing.com/SMC_Alcohol_Injection/smc _alcohol_injection.html

    And as for "fancy computer controls to control knock" it's called a "knock sensor" and "electronic ignition." My 1990 eagle talon tsi had it, and it was not new then.

    This is why MIT researchers should get out of their labs once in a while.

    1. Re:you can buy one already by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      That kit sprays alcohol into the intake air - the MIT derived idea directly injects it into the cylinder. RTFA.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  71. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Dantoo · · Score: 1
    I'm not certain of the tech involved here but most of the concepts seem to be established. Injecting a cooling agent into the cylinder independently and directly to boost the charge has been used for 60-70 years. Water-meths and nitrous oxide are well proven technologies.

    Lots of sites about that give some history on it. Here's one off the top of Google search:

    http://www.dieselsite.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIE WCATS&Category=300

    and a lift of what it has to say:

    A brief history:
    Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930's by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol. The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection. The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the "automatic power reserve system (APR)" for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60's when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power. Bombadier's E-tech outboard engines (no link - horror flash site) use computer timed injection to control charge and lubrication to get greater efficiency and cleanliness from 2-stroke engines.

    Again I am not sure which measures of efficiency are being spoken of here, but even a couple of percent reduction of fuel burnt would mean astronomical savings in money, easing of political pressure and of course conserving the resource itself.
  72. supply and demand by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

    hmmm, I always thought that lower demand = lower prices.

    --
    We are all just people.
  73. Other potential solutions by zakkie · · Score: 1

    Interesting ideas are coming from Volkswagen, who are developing prototypes of their "CCS" engine technology. It's described as something halfway between a diesel and a petrol engine, with the fundamental principle being spontaneous and homogenous combustion of the fuel. Extensive resuse of exhaust gases is employed to help prevent pre-ignition. These engines use the common rail direct injection systems from VW's TDI engines, and are having fuels designed for them, one based off natural gas and called "SynFuel", the other from biomass, called "SunFuel". Both are, according to Volkswagen, free of sulphur and aromatic compounds, which greatly reduces emissions.

    See here http://media.vw.com/article_display.cfm?article_id =10016 for more info.

    1. Re:Other potential solutions by Froster · · Score: 1
      I was just about to post this myself. The approach that VW is using with CCS makes a lot of sense to me because it recognizes that there are attributes of both diesel and gasoline engines that are desirable and that a combination of these concepts could yield the way forward.

      VW already has prototypes using the first generation of these engines including the EcoRacer concept, which is a little roadster that will do 230km/h with an efficiency of 3.4L/100km.

      The VW press release about it is here: http://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/medias_pu blish/ms/content/en/pressemitteilungen/2005/10/19/ in_a_nutshell__the.standard.gid-oeffentlichkeit.ht ml

      and here is a Test Drive from Automobile: http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0605_20 06_volkswagen_ecoracer_concept/

      There was also a clip on Fifth Gear of it in season 9

  74. Paint Thinner by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

    it's practically nonexistant outside of the US, Brazil, and Sweden. That means you can't take road trips,

    Oh no, no more road trips to Sweden?!? You can find ethanol in every hardware store in the US and Canada. It's call denatured alcohol, it's in the paint supplies isle.

    --
    We are all just people.
  75. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Technician · · Score: 1

    Next time, please try reading the article

    Other than choice of fuel and the retention of a spark plug, how is this not the same as a turbocharged diesel?

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  76. Power/efficiency tradeoff by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1
    There doesn't seem to be much interest or much consumer demand for applying this technology to higher gas mileage instead of higher performance.

    The market for high fuel efficiency is with some of the hybrid cars (can't say whether they hybrid Highlander, Escape, and even Camry are really providing such high gas mileage, and the hybrid Accord and certainly the hybrid version of the ES300 seem to be more of a performance market) -- there is also a small fuel efficiency market with the VW direct-injection Diesels. Beyond that, I don't see anyone marketing fuel efficiency, even at today's high gas prices.

    Go over to www.thetruthaboutcars.com, and those dudes have the odd article complaining that there are no advances in fuel economy, but they rag on any car with a 0-60 time of 8 seconds or longer. There was this thing on cable TV covering the auto show where there is a Mazda 3 (otherwise a small, practical car with somewhat sporty handling and good ergonomics and space efficiency) being equiped with a 260 HP 2 litre direct-injection turbo motor.

    I imagine with that motor you have a sporty car with comparable gas mileage to say a V6 Camry, and maybe a souped-up Mazda 3 with that motor is a more ecological choice for someone who wants a sporty car than a Mustang GT with a V8. On the other hand, couldn't they equip a Mazda 3 with a 1 litre 130 HP motor using that same technology, and wouldn't that car get a lot better gas mileage yet have perfectly workable levels of acceleration? I know things don't scale -- the 1 litre engine doesn't get twice the mileage of a 2 litre engine on account that not all the drag in a vehicle is engine friction.

    1. Re:Power/efficiency tradeoff by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      >> couldn't they equip a Mazda 3 with a 1 litre 130 HP motor using
      >> that same technology, and wouldn't that car get a lot better gas
      >> mileage yet have perfectly workable levels of acceleration?

      Small displacement, high output engines usually are unappealing to consumers since they produce their high power only at high rpms. The frequent downshifting and high noise levels that ensue are unpleasant for the average commuter.

      But hybrids are a good approach since the electric motors can fill in at low rpm and allow the main motor to be small while overall maintaining a torque curve that resembles that of a larger gasoline-only engine.

      (My personal preference would be V-8 engines in the 2-3 liter range. These are small enough to be efficient, and the V-8 configuration can rev up to high rpms w/o as much noise and vibration as a 4 or V-6. The valley of the V-8 is a good spot for a small supercharger btw. And V-8's can use cylinder deactivation to reduce pumping losses at highway speeds.)

  77. computer can EASILY detect lack of ethanol by Matthew+Bafford · · Score: 1

    This works out great until ethanol doesn't get injected for some reason, at which point your engine has to withstand the pre-ignition (knock) before the knock sensor can detect it and the ecu can dial back your A:F, timing and/or wastegate settings.


    People keep acting like the knock sensor is the only possible way to prevent a shortage of ethanol from causing problems. Think about it; there's got a tank of ethanol that's feeding this system. If my car can signal me when my windshield washer fluid is low, I think it can detect when this tank goes empty, too. All this takes is a level sensor (or pressure sensor) hooked up to the control unit. The knock sensor should be a final backup for detecting a problem, not the first line of defense...

    If the ethanol fails to get to the injectors because of some other problem not related to a shortage - well, there's a lot that can go wrong in modern engines. This isn't really any likely to fail than any of the other high pressure delivery systems already supporting engines.
    1. Re:computer can EASILY detect lack of ethanol by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      True, assuming that the engine has low enough compression to run on pump gas. A pressure sensor would be needed but even then a bad solenoid, bad sensor, bad pump, or a plugged injector could cause the same failure mode. The bottom line is you're adding more points of maintenance and failure to the car. If I'm 30% more likely to lose an engine, is it worth 15% more hp/mpg?

      People keep acting like the knock sensor is the only possible way to prevent a shortage of ethanol from causing problems. Think about it; there's got a tank of ethanol that's feeding this system. If my car can signal me when my windshield washer fluid is low, I think it can detect when this tank goes empty, too. All this takes is a level sensor (or pressure sensor) hooked up to the control unit. The knock sensor should be a final backup for detecting a problem, not the first line of defense...
  78. Lemme guess.... by NerveGas · · Score: 1


        Use a higher-octane fuel, advance the timing, and use a block/head that sheds heat more quickly.

        OK, now I've read TFA. It looks like they're injecting ethanol not just for the octane, but for cooling. Previous far-out turbocharging systems have injected water for cooling, ethanol is a step over that.

        The ideas, though, aren't really new. Back in WW2, before the USA entered the war, the German planes significantly out-performed the British planes. Suddenly, baffled German pilots found that the British planes were pulling away, climbing and flying faster. They knew that they hadn't had new engines installed, it wasn't until they found a downed plane that they found the source: The USA, while not technically entered into the war, had been supplying fuel to Britain which had an octane rating about 40 points higher - allowing more compression and power without the knock.

        Blending fuels isn't exactly new, either - top-fuel dragsters run about 97%-98% nitromethane, with a small amount of racing fuel added to keep things from getting too rough. In any event, now that I'm done shooting down their claims about being so revolutionary, I think that they should keep up the good work. Any improvements in this area are very good ones for all of us.

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
  79. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by MoxFulder · · Score: 1

    I work in a physics lab and use acetone all the time, and it's true that acetone "feels" even cooler than ethanol as it evaporates. By the way, I wouldn't handle pure acetone with bare hands!

    Ethanol is probably more practical than acetone since it's cheap,it's already produced in huge quantities and distributed to fueling stations, and it's less toxic.

  80. 1000psi is no problem by name_already_taken · · Score: 1

    Direct injection's time will come, but I'd wait at least a decade for the industry to be ready to handle 1000psi gasoline rails.

    Common rail diesel engines use rail pressures up to 1600 bar (23,200 psi), and normal hydraulic car brake systems (which the automakers have been reliably making for a long time now) can easily exceed 1000 psi on a regular basis. I don't see why 1000 psi for any other fluid system would be a problem.

    --
    Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
    1. Re:1000psi is no problem by DanielArdelian · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it's the liquid that you're trying to compress that makes a difference.
      There may be some problems with gasoline (flammability ?) that are not present in brake fluids or diesel fuel...

      --
      The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
    2. Re:1000psi is no problem by Mercedes308 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The thought of having petrol under high pressure in an engine bay concerns me a bit. One fitting failure/debris impact and the bay will quickly fill with atomized fuel.....charming thought. I've been involved in the rebuilding of an engine room on a vessel that had burnt out from the result of pressurized rail failure. The result of that was over a million dollars in damage from a liquid that is vastly less volatile than petrol. I'd hate to see what the result from petrol would have been like.

      --
      And no, I couldn't give a shit what my karma is.
  81. Save 25% of my gasoline bill? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    I only have a 10 gallon tank, and it's cosing me almost $30 a fill up. I'd be saving $7.50/fill, ~$780/year. Somebody with a truck or SUV would only save more.

    You tell somebody that it'll save them $1k a year in fuel and many will go through the bother of keeping it filled. Or just let the oil change guy top it off along with the other fluids.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  82. What's actually new by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

    The difference is that spray-guided direct-injection is here, and available for passenger cars. That wasn't true 60 years ago, or even 20.

    You're probably right about the auto companies (I know them, from the inside), but they don't have a choice any more and they seem to realize it.

  83. Cobasys passed up lots of sales by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be news if Toyota had infringed on their patents, there was money to be made, and they *didn't* sue.
    And the outcome could have been "Toyota agrees to license the prismatic cell technology from Cobasys". This would have made Cobasys a lot more money than keeping Toyota out of the market for another 7 years.

    Carbon-backed lead acid is not *that* impressive, and if it has the typical lead-acid chemistry reliability, let me be the first to say "no thank you" to a car full of them.
    The whole point of the carbon-foam backing is that it eliminates the grid-corrosion failure mode and doesn't have enough room for large sulfate crystals to grow.

    Li-ion: see this post for my take on Li-ion.
    Neither the lithium iron phosphate nor the lithium titanium spinel chemistries have the fire failure mode (the Saphion demo pierces a cell, and nothing much happens). Some people think Altair Nano is dodgy, but they're claiming 0-100% charge in 5 minutes and 80% charge in 60 seconds. Oh, and 15,000 cycles so far with more than 80% capacity remaining. A123Systems isn't far behind, and they've been shipping product in power tools for a while.

    It's always easy to say "NotYetHereTech will revolutionize the world!"
    It's harder to deny stuff that you can buy off the shelf today. A few years ago, a small Li-ion cell was a lot of money. Today, you can order cars (Tesla roadster, eBox) powered by the things. The trend is clear.

    Not that I'd expect you to admit this, because you're a troll.
    1. Re:Cobasys passed up lots of sales by Rei · · Score: 1, Troll

      It would be news if Toyota had infringed on their patents, there was money to be made, and they *didn't* sue.
      And the outcome could have been "Toyota agrees to license the prismatic cell technology from Cobasys". This would have made Cobasys a lot more money than keeping Toyota out of the market for another 7 years.


      Whatever Cobasys asked for, Toyota didn't think it was worth it. It happens. You think Microsoft wants to use mp3 after their recent patent blow? Once again, I'll reiterate: Cobasys *really does* make batteries that *really do* go into vehicles that save gasoline, hurting Chevron's bottom line. They also license to other companies that do the same thing, undercutting the notion that they're opposed to licensing. You're kind of boxed into the line of argument that they're opposed to the use of *one type* of cell that they hold the patents for while they *promote* the use of others that they make. This makes absolutely no sense. Hell, the terms of the settlement involve Panasonic EV and Cobasys cross-licensing future tech: that is, not only does Cobasys get the rights to use Panasonic's NiMH patents, but Panasonic got the right to use Cobasys's patents. Strange choice of settlement for a company that's trying to hide the tech, wouldn't you say?

      A123's li-ion phosphate batteries are a mere 100 Wh/kg. Call me unimpressed. PO4FeLi is still less than conventional Li-ion (about 25% less, if I remember right). Altair is indeed dodgy. I'd say "dodgiER", because most press release claims about new tech simply fall through when it comes to commercialization. All of them are still better energy density than NiMH, but not by nearly as much. Charge cycles are rarely ever a problem for Li-ion. As I stated earlier, it's about battery age (well, not just age -- age at a given temperature; that's why you're supposed to cold-store your laptop batteries if you're not going to use them for a while). You can run your laptop battery up and down constantly for a month and see almost no change, but if you leave it sitting in your closet for a few years, when you get it back out, it'll have lost significant capacity.

      A few years ago, a small Li-ion cell was a lot of money. Today, you can order cars (Tesla roadster, eBox

      I hope that you were trying to make me laugh. If not, you seem to think that paying $100k for a car isn't "a lot of money".

      --
      Assuming ethanol comes from murdered children and the hydrogen from magic, hydrogen saves 132% more lives than ethanol.
  84. pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US has very strict diesel emissions standards, that is why we have so few diesel powered autos here, although diesel trucks, from pickup sized on up, are common. This year lower sulphur diesel is being mandated and there will be more entries. Most european diesels can't pass emissions here yet, ie, you are worse polluters with that, but because your fuel is so much more expensive, you put up with it.

    So it isn't that we are ignorant of diesels-the US has a very robust past history of ICE powered everything, thankyou very much, we just took to gasoline more for autos, that's all. And don't forget, we were a huge oil producing nation for a long time, even exported a lot, just starting in the 70s we were forced to finally really import a lot more. And as such, when the crude gets refined, we had the gasoline, so we used it. What were we supposed to do, throw it away?? You get a variety of fuels from crude, we used all of it in some form or another. Gasoline, diesel, kerosene (think jet fuel then)-all comes from the same distillation and cracking. so-gas for cars, diesel for trucks and trains and industrial equipment, kero for planes. makes sense, wastes nothing.

        Most of our other equipment besides light cars is all diesel powered, except for stuff used inside buildings or mines, which are usually propane or electric battery powered. Myself, today, only used a smidgen of gasoline in a mower and trimmer (probably a quart or less), the rest was diesel in two different tractors. In fact, I think I personally drive more miles on a diesel tractor then I do driving gasoline powered cars any more.

    And sorry about your excessive fuel costs, but how again is that "ignorant americans" fault? If you guys are so much smarter, why do you even need "modern diesels", shouldn't you be running on pure hydrogen by now, or pure electric? Go ahead, show us your smarts! If it is really that much better, we'll buy it from you. If you can make your diesels all pass advanced emissions standards, then by all means, export them here, pass the tests, you'll sell them. People here want good mileage PLUS good performance PLUS good range, all of the above. We need performance and range first though, because we are a big nation, we travel a lot, we haul a lot of stuff, etc. Make the vehicles realistic to fit our nation, and they will sell. Even the japanese makers finally got hip and all produce real sized pickups now, because we need them that size for a lot of purposes.

      The US is never going to be "your" nation, so don't think it will be-it just isn't going to happen, apples and oranges. Celebrate the differences, it would be beyond boring if we were all the same now wouldn't it?

  85. You're very negative about water. Air too? by ImitationEnergy · · Score: 0

    I agree with you that asking consumers to keep up with two fuel tanks is a big negative. I designed an engine process that re-uses the water for a very long time (engine life) > http://www.newpath4.com/enginewow.htm with extra links on > http://www.newpath4.com/imitationenergy.htm . It is essentially a "climate engine" that combines highly compressed liquid air with the water being pre-flashed into steam.

    The air is also recycled, recompressed endlessly through compressors that replace the car springs and shocks. Neither requires refueling & neither requires a fuel tank because the lines from cylinder exit around to cylinder injection constitutes the storage tanks. Much as this looks like perpetual motion it is not because the gravity-inertia being used to recompress the air is an "outside energy source", a definite disqualification for perp.

    Since this "imitation fuel" combo is pre-processed before cylinder injection the returning piston is not losing power to recompress the next fuel mixture like a combustion engine, significantly reducing combustion engine efficiency to 25%. So while the steam + air may not produce an equal horsepower of a Hemi rig it gains a 400% effective hp boost. Being running at a balanced temperature, such an engine does not need a radiator, further reducing hp requirements.

    But you should give these other guys some credit. They're trying.

    --
    Industrial Age 2 + How-to Stop Malignant Cancers.
    1. Re:You're very negative about water. Air too? by noctrl · · Score: 1

      hehe, slashdot moderators have no humor :D

  86. Uh OLD NEWS by AgNO3 · · Score: 1

    This is old news. My 1981 Callaway BMW comes with a water injection system. The thing is you don't put water in it you put ethyl alcohol. Why? Well its water based which created steam and compression and then the Ethyl burns cooler preventing my pistons from melting. What is so different about this?

    --
    OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink :-(
  87. Re: VW's FSI technology by Froster · · Score: 1
    The article dwells on direct injection and turbocharging quite a bit though, and it is valid to mention that VW has been producing these engines for a couple years now, winning a few 'best engine' awards in the process. One important advantage of the FSI (stratified injection) direct injection that VW uses in the 2.0T is that the Air/Fuel mixture is stratified in the cylinder so that the flame front can spread more quickly within the cylinder, which increases efficiency.

    I agree though that cooling the cylinder with ethanol vapourization is an important innovation, but it would seem to be a complex addition to an engine. If I'm not mistaken, to take advantage of this, you would need to have a separate, parallel injection system for the ethanol rather than a blended fuel (which we already have). If this is the case, then an engine would need to be substantially revised to allow for dual injectors, and I would image the engine management would have to become much more sophisticated ensure that the ratio of gasoline to ethanol was appropriate throughout the combustion chamber. I would hate to find out what would happen should this system fail, starving the engine of ethanol, presumably causing massive knock issues.

  88. Flossing a Dead Horse by ddoctor · · Score: 1

    Yay, wow! Let's spend all our energy research money on building better ways to burn fuel. Increasing fuel efficiency is good, but we're still burning fuel. Can't this research effort be put into something non-polluting?

  89. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by willy_me · · Score: 1

    Well, for the record, completely mechanical thermostats have been a part of engine cooling systems since... well, probably nearly as long as enginges have been around. The radiator in a car is designed in about the worst-case scenario. The thermostat valve is definitely much wider while driving in Texas in the summer than Maine in the winter, but the engine temp would remain the same. If the thermostat wasn't there, my engine might never get warm in the winter (esp. consider the size of the radiator exposure on my car).

    Actually, you're wrong. You'll notice that people driving older trucks put cardboard in front of their rad in the winter. This is because, as you suggested, the motor never gets a chance to warm up in the winter. I have a 86 Ford that is like this. The water pump is driven directly from the main pulley system. So long as the motor is turning, coolant is circulating through the radiator.

    What a lot of modern cars do is that they circulate the coolant all the time. To prevent over cooling, the radiator fan is only turned on when it is required (via a heat sensor). This is likely how your car works. Seeing this for the first time (in 1990) was a big deal as previous vehicles simply turned the fan all the time. (Please note that I was a kid in 1990 - it was obviously in existence before that.)

    Willy
  90. Marketing Conflagration by twitter · · Score: 1

    why would premature combustion still be a problem in a direct-injection engine? It should be possible to inject the fuel when it is needed, and not before. Or would that lead to timing problems?

    If you can define what mature combustion is, your engine will be very satisfied. Is it true that Honda's charge shaping hits her G-spot? Lube and timing are critical, especially on start up. Chitty-chitty bang-bang, we love you.

    An actual answer to your question can be found in the above link. You need the correct distribution of fuel for proper operation and might not be able to get that with direct injection and still avoid pre-ignition.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  91. VW's TDI by giminy · · Score: 1

    I'll echo the hundred other people here. I drive a VW TDI, which means Turbo Direct Inject. It's pretty old-hat for diesel cars. For gasoline engines, though, this is certainly something new.

    TFA is pretty bad IMHO. First they say the new engine would have triple the efficiency. Later they say a 25% increase in efficiency. What they propose, is to start using pressures inside the combustion chamber similar to that found in a diesel motor (most gas cars are ~10:1 compression, diesels are ~20:1). They don't talk about NOx, oxides of nitrogen, that tend to form when fuel is combusted at higher pressures of O2, though. Will modern catalytic converters be enough to deal with the increased NOx? Catalytic converters are probably the biggest bane for diesels, because the fuel has more sulfur than gasoline, and sulfur kills the magic catalyst material by bonding to it and making it not respond to nitrogen anymore. Ethanol probably doesn't have that problem, but the volume of NOx coming out the tailpipe will need some dealing with, the unit injectors for the ethanol will be expensive (you'll need fuel injectors + unit injectors or a common rail system, instead of just unit injectors/common rail on a modern diesel), and all for not a lot of gain in efficiency.

    It seems like a lot of research will have to be done to make gasoline cars as efficient as a modern diesel, and then even more work will have to be done to clean it up. Yikes. I'll stick with my Jetta, thankyouverymuch.

    Reid

    --
    The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
  92. Mitsubishi GDI engine? by Askmum · · Score: 1

    Isn't this something Mitsubishi are working on with their GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection)engine?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injec tion

    For something even more novel, see http://www.prautotype.nl/ (sorry, only Dutch) for an engine that can use a different compression for compression and exhaust stroke and can even change its compression dynamically whilst running.

  93. Add Pre-Atom Smashing Win Win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now all they need to do is add pre-atom smashing, so when the water from the garden hose gets to the intake manifold, it is changed to two pieces of hydrogen, and disgard the one piece of oxygen, then send the two hydrogens to the pre-ignition thing-a-ma-bober and boom, Bush's filthy oil war was all for naught.

  94. What does Preexisting mean? by CMan0 · · Score: 1

    Where did they find this word? What's preexisting? You can use "Existing" in exactly the same place and get the same meaning, what are they trying to achieve by using this word? So now my cellphone is preexisting too?

    1. Re:What does Preexisting mean? by vidarh · · Score: 1

      It means "existed before". Go look at a dictionary. In other words you can't just use "existing" in the same place and get the same meaning. "Existing" would just imply it exists now, "preexisting" implies it existed in the past, and in this context that it implicitly still exists (but "preexisting" can also be used when something existed in the past and doesn't exist anymore) because a technology exists by virtue of being known.

  95. Problem by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    You need to put batteries into that equation somewhere because fuel cells are slow to start up. Battery production and disposal SUCKS for the environment.

    --

    +++ATH0
  96. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, dickhead, it is you who is wrong. Engines have had thermostats from the start, You came to that conclusion from seeing clapped out old cars with the wrong thermostat, too big a radiator or most likely, thermostat siezed with scale. As for electric thermo-fans, they are used because they are more efficient than pulley fans which run to slow at idle and are pointless at highway speed.

  97. I Say Tomato, You Say Tomahto..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 1

    Whatever.

    REAL "Internal Combution" increases come from drowning a jalapeno taco from the BurritoMobile across the street in Tabasco sauce.

    Granted, you won't get very many miles per gallon out of it before you have to stop.....

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  98. old hat by Mean+Ass+Troll · · Score: 0

    "Cohn and his colleagues have created a design that they believe could triple the power of a test engine"

    is that all?

    this has been done years ago on a buick grand national. they were late 80's v6, and turbo'd. by adding efi, and some other tricks, quite a few people have gotten over 1200 hp out of these motors, and not just in a lab, but on a streel legal, drive-able car.

  99. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by Mercedes308 · · Score: 1

    Ethanol is more volatile than diesel I believe and might compression ignite more readily than the diesel which would require it to be injected very late after TDC in turn negating the cooling effect it would have to the chamber. But it would work as you said it would if some other substance exists that would have a higher octane than the diesel.

    --
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  100. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by deadweight · · Score: 1

    FYI my 1993 MR2 had an electric power-steering pump. I also doubt anyone is shutting down the OIL pump at any time.

  101. A better idea than this... by hodedofome · · Score: 1

    Is to remove the one of the biggest obstruction's to making more power...the valve. http://www.coatesengine.com/ I still don't know why every car manufacturer hasn't implemented rotary valves, it's got to be politics holding it down. Wayyy more power, better MPG, less moving parts, oil changes every 50,000 miles, it's ridiculous.

  102. This was done more than 60 years ago... by mongogeek · · Score: 1

    German aircraft engines in world war 2 had direct fuel injection and also injected MW50 (50% methanol 50% water) for maximum power.

  103. Bad Mod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Commenting to cancel a mistaken mod. I have no idea who I modded Troll, but didn't mean to do it.

  104. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

    Again I am not sure which measures of efficiency are being spoken of here, but even a couple of percent reduction of fuel burnt would mean astronomical savings in money, easing of political pressure and of course conserving the resource itself.

    Long term, that's what it means. Short term, it means (from the article) a $1000-$1500 increase in engine production costs, plus additional expenses in safety measures, safety testing, and the development of maintenance manuals and training for mechanics.

    Automakers are in business to make a profit. This tech will take years of work to go into production, and a few more years before it is profitable. I predict it never makes it to production, because there is an environmental case but not an economic one.

  105. old news, Saab has been doing this since 1985 by baine · · Score: 1

    In addition to the racing technologies that others have mentioned, there's a whole lot more common example of this existing technology. Saab has been selling cars to normal folks like you and me for over 20 years with this kind of technology right from the factory. They started out using a simple(ish) analog circuit to control the turbo waste gate valve based on an engine knock sensor. Too much knock, step down the boost (by bleeding some off through the bypass valve) until the knocking goes away. It allows the tuner to crank the boost up significantly (as long as the engine seals hold) and let the circuit sort out how much boost the engine can run on, given the fuel supplied. Saab engineers have made their careers on extracting lots of HP and torque from 2.o and 2.3 liter 4 cylinder engines by judicous application of turbos.

    --
    Need a simple, easy to use data tier generator? http://www.gryphinsoftware.com/
  106. also old news by alizard · · Score: 1
    An electric motor provides max torque at stall, the opposite of a gasoline engine. Does that answer your question?

    How often do you see someone towing their boat trailer uphill, really, not in a commercial?


    In RL, would your name happen to be A.Square and your home area Flatland? Hills and mountains are not imaginary things you see on your TV set. Lots of hills outside where you live, and to get from home to the water, one has to drag one's trailer over those hills.
  107. Many of you are missing the point. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    This *IS* new, in the sense that they are not proposing add-ons to existing vehicles at all! Rather, they want to design the engine around this technology in order to get higher compression ratios than are currently available. Saying that this is old just because there are add-ons for existing engines are missing the whole point of the article. Existing engines do not have the compression ratios they are talking about. Having said that, though... am I the only one who noticed that the statements "triple the power of a test engine", and "25% more horsepower", differ by more than an order of magnitude?

  108. CVCC/Combax? by falconz · · Score: 1

    There are lots of anti-detonation methods around. My favourite is Honda's CVCC (1970s) and CVCC-II/Combax (early 80s). These divide the combustion chamber into two areas. A small area has a rich mixture and the spark plug, and is separated from the rest of the combustion chamber by a perforated panel. The main combustion chamber can be run much leaner, as the flame front passes smoothly into this area through the panel. This slows the burn process and effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel - so, no detonation. The benefits are considerable - cleaner burning, these engines were able to meet emissions standards with no catalytic converter. Plus, the Combax Turbo was able to produce huge amounts of power, without the detonation problems that normally plague turbocharged engines, and with much less stress on the engine. It's a very clever system, and I thought it was worth mentioning here as it's a very workable way of reducing detonation without having to go to the trouble of using additives. f.

  109. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by autocracy · · Score: 1

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system8.htm I strongly suspect that the cardboard factor has to do with raw airflow over the engine since the opening on large trucks is so big. I'm strongly considering cardboarding mine next year as well, since it suffers a similar problem of taking a very long time to warm in winter (almost the whole facia, axle to hood between the headlights is exposed for ventilation).

    --
    SIG: HUP
  110. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by dryeo · · Score: 1

    Actually as a kid we had a '37 Morris Minor which had no water pump or thermostat, just a big radiator with blinds in front for winter.
    Coolant circulated by convection.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  111. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by sbaker · · Score: 1

    I believe that on most cars, the water pump is driven continuously by the engine - whether it's needed or not. What the mechanical thermostat does is to allow the output of the pump to go through the radiator or simply to circulate around the engine block and directly back to the pump. So when the engine is cold, no water flows through the radiator - but the water pump is still pumping at full speed. As soon as you get up to temperature, the thermostat opens, the water goes through the radiator and (all being well) the engine temperature immediately stabilises at whatever temperature your thermostat was built to set.

    The radiator fan is also turned on and off with an electrical thermostat - you don't need the fan on unless the radiator is failing to cool the water sufficiently unaided - but that's not to regulate engine temperature - that's to save energy by not running the fan unnecessarily.

    Some people react to a chronically overheating car by completely removing the thermostat which allows the water to flow around the radiator all the time - and removes an obstruction to the water flow. However, this can be dangerous. On an older car that I own (a '63 Mini as it happens), removing the thermostat also removes turbulance from the water stream which causes a 'stagnant' area where water no longer flows - this results in a hot-spot building up on the sides of two of the cylinders which can wreck the engine in pretty short order!

    If you did that on one of these trucks - then you might well have problems in cold weather of the engine never reaching it's desired operating temperature. That's bad for gas milage - but shouldn't be all that serious otherwise.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  112. Re:Check out the 07 MINI - it has this stuff alrea by GameMaster · · Score: 1

    A turbocharged diesel may use direct injection, such as in the VW TDI engines, but it uses direct injection for the diesel fuel. The system in the article uses direct injection only for the pure ethanol which is injected seperately, and out of phase, from the main fuel. The pure ethanol isn't, primarily, meant to be burned. It serves to cool the cylinder through evaporative cooling. If it were injected with the fuel (as is the case with 10% ethanol mixed fuel from a gas station, it would just be burned with the rest of the fuel and wouldn't cause any cooling effect. This is also why the pure ethanol has to be stored in a seperate reservoir. This may end up being the achilles heel of the design as similar systems have been introduced to the market in the past (the 60s) and failed because people were too lazy/annoyed to bother keeping the seperate reservoir filled.

    -GameMaster

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