HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux

darkonc points us to a writeup on linux.com about a very Linux-unfriendly policy at HP. A woman bought a Compaq laptop and loaded Ubuntu on it. Some time later, still well inside the 1-year hardware warranty, the keyboard started acting up. An HP support rep told her, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation. (Linux.com and Slashdot are both part of OSTG.)

Comments

Illegal?

[jshriverWVU]

What does software have to do with a hardware waranty?

Re:Illegal?

[bcmbyte]

That LINUX is evil, just ask M$, they will tell you how it crashes computers all the time. I have heard of stories where LINUX has turned off the sun. Third grade linux users are writing code that causes hardware like keyboards and mice to break all the time... How is HP supposed to be responsible such catastrophies...

Oh wait tech support for linux on systems costs companies more, that's why it voids the warranty... I would like to see some one take this to court.

Re:Illegal?

[iamnafets]

The solution is pretty simple, use the recovery disks to reload windows along with all those crappy applications that are distributed with your computer and send it in. It's a hassle, but hey...

Re:Illegal?

[Helvidius]

The only way that I could see where software would void a hardware warranty is if the software in question performed operations that would directly contribute to the hardware failure (e.g. writing to the same sectors of a hard drive, thousands of time). I think the real question is:

Does the HP warranty explicitly state that installing Linux (or any other operating system) voids the warranty? If it does, then it is unfortunate, but there is not much that she can do. I think the explanation for the action would be very interesting. If she would have somehow legally installed HP-UX, would it have also voided said warranty? Looks like a job for the EFF.

Of course, that's just my opinion--then again, I could be wrong.

Re:Illegal?

[sconeu]

When you are using unsupported drivers who's to say the driver didn't screw up the hardware.

Exactly how is an unsupported driver supposed to cause physically sticky keys?

Re:Illegal?

[eno2001]

Yep. That's what I do. I get an extra HD and back up the original factory installation. That way if some dickhead from coporate wants to see a Windows box, he'll see one. Wanna know why this works for Linux users? Because the ONLY time we call support is when the hardware is actually broken. Unlike the Windows dorks who think their systems are broken when it's really a software issue.

Re:Illegal?

[MBCook]

Microsoft has had Sticky Keys in Windows for years and years now. Maybe someone just developed a similar driver for Linux?

(yes, I know)

Re:Illegal?

[wallywam1]

I'm really curious as to whether this is representative of HP policy or just some tech support person overstepping their bounds. I've never done full-time tech support, but from what I understand there is a great deal of pressure placed on the support people to get the customer off the phone as quickly as possible. The you-installed-Linux-it's-your-fault approach might just have been a ploy.

Re:Illegal?

[Lumpy]

A local IT support company locally called NEXT/IT actually tells customer that linux causes viruses and security holes if it's anywhere in their office. Microsoft tries hard to make sure their partners spread BS FUD like that from the corporate level to the field techs. I find it offensive and inform customers that if a company rep starts spewing things like that then they need to see it as a warning that they are probably lying about other aspects as well.

Re:Illegal?

[Keiseth]

Well, for starters, let ME try making the drivers. They said it was daft to build a computer next to a swamp, but I did it anyway! The first computer, it sank into the swamp. The second computer fell over and sank into the swamp. If I make the drivers for the next one, that one will probably burn down, fall over and sink into the swamp. But the next one; that one will stay up! And then I'll give that one to you; the strongest computer in all of Slashdot. I have no idea how or why I integrated a Monty Python joke into driver discussion.

Re:Illegal?

[Pentavirate]

This has nothing to do with Linux. I once owned a Toshiba that came with Win98 installed. I had installed Win2000 on the computer as a dual boot with the win98. Later I was having some hardware issues that fell under warranty. On the phone, the technician told me that I had to have the original Win98 on the computer. I explained that I had it but I dual boot into win2000. That wasn't good enough. It had to have the original configuration only. I hung up and called back and lied about only having win98 installed.

From their point of view, they need to have the software in a known state so that they can troubleshoot the hardware. They don't want to go to the expense of sending out a technician (I had an on-site warranty) if the problem turned out to not be hardware related and they needed to know that the technician will be familiar with the OS so they can do their troubleshooting as well.

I know it's fun to jump on the "everyone is against Linux" bandwagon but this just isn't the case in this situation.

Re:Illegal?

[Cocoronixx]

SOL, or you just use another computer to re-image it?

Re:Illegal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly how is an unsupported driver supposed to cause physically sticky keys?

By displaying particularly good porn?

Re:Illegal?

[ohearn]

Having done full time tech support as my primary job through my undergrad and as part time during grad school, I can tell you this is true in call center tech support. I've worked for shops having the onsite service contract for an area with HP, but this basically is just go install replacement parts for customers to afraid to open the case. I have worked phone support for Gateway, Dell, and MS.

From my experience I would say that a Gateway tech would probably tell you the same line since the are under a strict time deadline at most of thier centers unless its changed a lot since I worked for them. Dell's environment for the techs isn't nearly as bad, so you would probably not get it nearly as often there, and to MS's credit they had no time limits; all they cared about was getting the customer's issue fixed even if you were on one call all day. MS also mandated much better training for the techs than Gateway and Dell did, although Dell was a better than Gateway on this by a little bit.

Technically the policies for any of the com panies I did phone support for would not support this BS. All the tech has to do to bypass any driver issues, OS issues, or other nonsense would be to test the keyboard in the BIOS, or boot from the Windows CD that came with the system and get to a command prompt that was to test it. Worst case should be that they require the customer to reinstall windows and then test it, and replace the keyboard as needed at that point.

Again I only worked onsite for HP, and it has been years since I did tech support for a living, but this is at least speaking from someone who has a lot of experience in the area.

Re:Illegal?

[Alien Being]

"how is an unsupported driver supposed to cause physically sticky keys?"

When I delete Windows and install Linux, it's such a joy that I immediately ejaculate all over the keyboard.

Re:Illegal?

[nine-times]

When you are using unsupported drivers who's to say the driver didn't screw up the hardware.

So does it void your warranty if you install an unsupported driver in Windows? And supported by whom? If I have an nvidia card, is the driver from Nvidia "supported"? What about the one from Windows Update? Or is it only the driver HP supplies for me? And what if I install a 3rd party piece of hardware or software which results in installing "unsupported drivers"? What if you tried listening to a Sony audio CD and got a rootkit?

Until they provide a list of all "supported" software, or all software which voids your warranty, they should just support the hardware. It's a general assumption that people are going replace software, or at least install additional software, after they buy a computer. If manufacturers are going to start denying warranties because of software installed, it sets a dangerous precedent.

Re:Illegal?

[trianglman]

The thing is, the warranty makes no mention of any software requirements. Its all well and good if they don't want to support Linux (well, imo its wrong, but still legal), but if they don't say "Changing the OS on this system voids the warranty" then what HP/Compaq is doing is fraud. You can't arbitrarily void the warranty. Otherwise they could say, "Oh, you installed Firefox? We only allow you to use IE, your warranty is now void." etc.

Re:Illegal?

[MoxFulder]

I had to send my HP laptop in for warranty repair once. They told me the hard drive would be formatted, which I refused. After a few minutes of me basically telling them, "look, the AC socket is physically broken and it has nothing to do with software", they agreed that I could send in the computer without the hard drive.

I suggest that anyone having hardware issues with a computer running Linux do the same: explain to the tech support people that the issue has nothing to do with software, and that you've diagnosed the specific hardware failure. Make sure they let you send in the computer for repair without the hard drive included, so you won't have them hassling you about what OS you run.

Re:Illegal?

[Mr. Flibble]

Because the ONLY time we call support is when the hardware is actually broken.

Are you certain of this? I have been to some LUG's where there were Linux newbies there who were migrating off of Microsoft not because they like Linux, but rather because they hate Microsoft. (I think that this migration is for entirely the wrong reason.) Many of these kinds of users seemed to blame the hardware of their machines, and feel that they could "demand" support for their hardware, even if it was an unsupported platform (Linux).

The thing is, a serious Linux user will check out the hardware in advance and verify compatibility, and most serious users are knowledgeable in hardware to determine that there are hardware issues. However, newbies are not. You cannot categorically say that all Linux users know their hardware, because I have seen that this is not so. I have seen new users rage against companies like HP, Dell etc. when sometimes they have not bothered to RTFM.

Likewise, I have been admonished for buying hardware that I knew would not be Linux compatible by other users. My Ati All in Wonder 9800 pro does not work under Linux, but I knew that before I bought it. I think that zealots (which is what some of the newbs I met were) harm Linux for all by actually complaining to the companies for the lack of support for Linux, but by doing it in a non-constructive manner.

So, I think that EXPERIENCED Linux users know when the hardware is broken, but then they also know to restore the default OS when getting the hardware fixed.

Re:Illegal?

[despisethesun]

Linux isn't perfect, but most Linux desktop users know what they're doing well enough to fix it themselves when something goes wrong, or they know where to look to get the information without calling tech support. In my experience in tech support, 99% of all Windows tech support calls are either virus/spyware related, or the customer did something stupid without knowing what they're doing and now the system is "broken". So yes, in my experience, if a Linux user is calling in about an issue, you can be fairly sure that something is well and truly fucked and you (or your employers) are going to be on the hook for it.

Re:Illegal?

[Chandon Seldon]

It is hard to build a laptop at Newegg, but that doesn't mean that you're out of options and must resort to buying from HP or Dell.

It's possible to buy a whitebox laptop and drop in all the technician-serviceable parts yourself. It's annoying, so I personally try to avoid it.

There are also a number of independent vendors who are happy to sell high quality laptops to Linux users. Some, like http://www.system76.com/ actually sell laptops with Linux installed. Others, like http://www.powernotebooks.com/ sell OS-less laptops and are happy to service machines with Linux installed.

Most people immediately respond "but Dell laptops are cheaper". Three points:
- First, the price difference isn't that large. Start at System76 or PowerNotebooks and pick the system that you want. Then recreate the exact same hardware configuration on the HP/Dell/Lenovo site and compare the prices. Going the other way is harder because the independent vendors have a smaller selection, but it's extremely unlikely that PowerNotebooks doesn't stock a machine that fits your needs.
- Second, if you buy from System76, you *know* your hardware works with Ubuntu (since it comes pre-installed). No janky wireless drivers, no too-new sound card that won't be supported until the next kernel revision. If you buy from PowerNotebooks, it's not quite as good - but they have a Linux support forum where you can discuss your issues with other users (and the owner of the company who watches the forums closely).
- You get what you pay for. Dell brand wireless is $10 cheaper than Intel wireless for a reason. Other components, like power supplies / battery packs / LCD screens are harder to compare because they aren't independently branded. The independent vendors compete on the quality of those components whereas the large vendors will cut every corner they can get away with. I mean - HP won't even post a battery life estimate for its laptops.

Re:Illegal?

[ohearn]

Specifically I was working for the support group for XP SP2 when it first came out. MS basically has each group supporting more or less a specific application. In my case thier attitude was they they did not know exactly what issues to expect out of the gate, but that the sole priority was making the customer happy. Now admittedly that is slightly different than fixing the problem. You can fix the problem, but treat the customer poorly or have a bad attitude and still piss them off, or you can be very helpful and polite and make the customer happy most of the time, even if you cannot find an immediate solution to the technical problem.

I do know that with MS, the only metric they held us to was that when they did the random call backs to survey customer satisfaction we better have at least a 90% rating of making the customer happy, no call time, no minimum number of calls per day, no pushing for sales, none of the other BS that Dell and ESPECIALLY Gateway put on thier techs. Dell was reasonable, Gateway wanted sales people that could read a checklist more than they wanted real techs and ran a lot of good techs off that way.

Re:Illegal?

[livewire98801]

I sent my notebook in to HP earlier this year because the keyboard was acting up. I reported that the behavior was the same in Windows and Linux. They replaced the keyboard and a couple of other things with no problem. . .

Re:Illegal?

[GuyverDH]

Too bad Windows mucks things up in the handholding to the point that it makes everything soooo much slower than it needs to be.

You don't need to be a techie to figure things out. You just need to be able to figure things out.

Re:Illegal?

[zotz]

"From their point of view, they need to have the software in a known state so that they can troubleshoot the hardware."

Well then, what they need to do is provide a live CD that can test the hardware no matter what state the software is currently in. Once they know the hardware is good, they can give software support or not based on what is on the hardware.

all the best,

drew

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=zotzbro

Re:Illegal?

[the-amazing-blob]

Your "(yes, I know)" just ruined my chance at "whoosh" jokes following responses to this post.

Re:Illegal?

[pedalman]

Dell does this with their Resource CD that ships with their computers. You can boot to it and troubleshoot the hardware, regardless of the OS residing on the hard drive.

Re:Illegal?

[SleepyHappyDoc]

The Resource CD doesn't actually do anything, though. It runs 'diagnostics' for hours, and then reports back things your BIOS would tell you immediately (SMART status, temperature, etc.). A friend of a friend who worked for Dell support told me the technicians were instructed to tell the customers to run these 'diagnostics' to get them off the phones, reducing average call times (by forcing the customer to make multiple shorter calls rather than one longer one).

Re:Illegal?

[aslvrstn]

I sole-boot linux on a Dell, and when my file system got corrupted, I ran badblocks to make sure it was a hard disk issue. It turned out to be a bunch of bad sectors in the middle of my drive. So I called Dell, completely explained the situation, including the sole-boot and running badblocks, and not only did the guy not hang up on me, he started talking about linux with me and seemed actually supportive of it. He asked me to boot into the recovery partition (which I had obviously deleted), so I told him I wiped it, and he asked me to boot onto the recovery CD. The regular CD diagnostics that he told me to run was just a simple memtest and a very high level HDD read test, both of which passed. I knew the disk was dead though, so I told him I was going to run some other of Dell's tests (they have multiple HDD tests), and he said he would call me back. He called back in about an hour, and sure enough there were multiple read errors. I got my new disk (they even gave me an extra 40GB free) overnight. So whatever HP does, and whatever crap Dell takes, Dell still gets my support for their support.

Re:Illegal?

[stephentyrone]

Clearly you've never tried small claims court. It's fun and easy. Well, not alway fun. But you're not a real american until you've sued someone. Keep the companies honest, don't roll over and take it.

Re:Illegal?

[bfields]

Its all well and good if they don't want to support Linux (well, imo its wrong, but still legal), but if they don't say "Changing the OS on this system voids the warranty" then what HP/Compaq is doing is fraud. You can't arbitrarily void the warranty.

If you read carefully you'll see they didn't claim that installing linux "voids the warranty" (though the article, confusingly, suggests that they did). At least not as I understand the term. I thought it referred to something unreversible--like dropping it off a tall building.

They asked her to wipe the system and restore the original OS before returning the laptop.

Which is still annoying--it shouldn't be that hard for them just to boot the thing from a diagnostic disk if they want to test with a known software configuration. I'd think the sensible thing would be to say "ship it to us, but back it up first; if we suspect a software problem we reserve the right to return the disk to its original state before returning it, but we'll try not to do that unless it's necessary."

Re:Illegal?

[FesterDaFelcher]

Well, considering it's an ENTER key on most keyboards made in the 15 years, I would have a hard time finding it as well. :)

Re:Illegal?

[zcat_NZ]

For anyone who thinks that running recovery media is a copout, you should try talking some customers through finding their address bar, or maybe the return key on their keyboard. Data isn't under warranty anyways (remember to backup, kids).

Do you let them know that system recovery is going to trash all their documents and email before they start? Because if not that's just about the shittiest thing you can do to someone. I agree that everybody ought to have backups, but I know that most people don't and even people who think they do have sometimes turned out to have burned a CD full of desktop shortcuts...

Re:Illegal?

[Syphondex]

just a quick story, I have a Toshiba A100 and recently had the keyboard repaired under warrantee. I run ubuntu 6.10 pure (no dual boot) and sent it in for repair. On the sheet it asked for various details, one being "Windows login name" and "Windows Password" I summarily cross both out, wrote that a Linux Os was installed and gave my login details. Less than 24 hours later i recieved my toshiba back with replaced keyboard, a nice breakdown of what they did. On that repair sheet it stated that the login details i had given them did not work (possibly they couldn't be bothered trying but whatever) and another line saying that they used a different image (i assume they swapped the HDD out). i got it back, without any charges, no BS about linux or that i wasn't using the factory OS. Maybe customer service is a New Zealand thing but i can only give a glowing report of my experience. My guess is that if you went to an HP/Toshiba/Dell authorised repair shop instead of the manufacturer themselves you may get more joy?

Re:Illegal?

[couchslug]

When you get a helpful tech, do ask how to contact their supervisor in order to praise their professionalism. Even if their boss does nothing for them, the praise will help them get through the stress brought on by the more "difficult" customers.

Re:Illegal?

[stephentyrone]

That's ok, you're not a real american until you're 18 either.

Re:Illegal?

[Phoobarnvaz]

The thing is, the warranty makes no mention of any software requirements. Its all well and good if they don't want to support Linux (well, imo its wrong, but still legal), but if they don't say "Changing the OS on this system voids the warranty" then what HP/Compaq is doing is fraud. You can't arbitrarily void the warranty. Otherwise they could say, "Oh, you installed Firefox? We only allow you to use IE, your warranty is now void." etc.

Used to work for a former major OEM doing phone/online(email) support. Before we would even start doing anything...the first question out of our mouths (taught to us by management) that we can only troubleshoot/support anything under warranty was to ask if there were NOT ANY third party devices or software on the computer. The reason for this is that the company was under no obligation to support a device or software which you bought from someplace else. The third party software & hardware would not be in the configuration or be sold by the OEM. Unless you replace the OS or take off only god knows what hardware/software on there...you'd be shooting yourself in the foot & creating a worse problem. For the most part...the people who wanted free tech support to too cheap to learn anything about how their computer worked in the first place.

For instance...would you want to take your Chevy car to a Ford dealer to fix the problem of an after-market or even stolen device you had to have installed or installed yourself on the car??? Why should I have spent company time fixing an issue little Johnny caused in the first place by downloading & installing warez or developing a virus.

Re:Illegal?

[livewire98801]

They replaced one of the two hard drives, the RAM, and something else. Technically, they would have replaced Linux, they informed me that they may image the drives. When I got it, the drive had been imaged, but it had also been logged into and I could see they had used some windows based tools to check the new drive's integrity.

I always assume if I'm sending something in, they will re-image the drive. Armed with this knowledge, I always make an image of my own before sending it.

Re:Illegal?

[dwater]

"ship it to us, but back it up first; if we suspect a software problem we reserve the right to return the disk to its original state before returning it, but we'll try not to do that unless it's necessary."

IIRC, this is what AppleCare say.

Re:Illegal?

[LingNoi]

* ring ring *
* ring ring *
op "Hello Tech Support"
customer "Hi I am having problems with my laptop I bought from your.."
op "Did you change the operating system?"
customer "No"
op "Are you using a non-default web browser like firefox?"
customer "No"
op "Did you change the desktop theme?"
customer "well.. i.."
op "SORRY! We can't support your non-default system!"
customer "damnit! not again..* click *

Re:Illegal?

[MoreDruid]

I'd think the sensible thing would be to say "ship it to us, but back it up first; if we suspect a software problem we reserve the right to return the disk to its original state before returning it, but we'll try not to do that unless it's necessary."

Which is exactly what they will ask you here in Europe. I've worked for HP and there is no requirement of an OS if the problem is hardware related. However, for troubleshooting they will ask - if needed - to reload the original OS, because that's the only thing your are trained in. If the unit is to be picked up we recommend the user to back up his/her data, since the repair line may nuke the install and get a fresh image on the box to do some after-repair testing before sending it back. Most of the time the user is asked to do the repair him/herself (within reason) to speed up the repair process and to make it less expensive. Pickup & return is 5 business days, usually you can have the component in the next day or the day after and you can call back for instructions if you're not able to figure out how to disassemble/reassemble the unit to replace the failing part and they'll walk you through it.

I'd like to add that this is the way we handled it at the business helpdesk, I'm not sure the consumer desk acts the same way.

Also..

[Rob T Firefly]

..the warranty on your car is invalid if you let someone smarter than you drive it.

Re:Also..

[stratjakt]

Get ahold of the regional repair manager from whatever company you're dealing with. 95% of all claims that go above the dealership are resolved in the customers favor. Some dealers hate doing warrantee work, because Ford pays them about half as much to drop in a new engine as you would out of pocket.

Go above their heads, you'll come out the winner every time. I know a guy who threw a rod after installing (by himself) a supercharger, and argued himself into a new engine. He didn't deserve it, and it was douchebaggy on his part, but he got it.

There are bad dealers and good ones. Good ones want your business.

I found a Ford dealer who would install a third party turbo kit on my mustang, and still honor the drivetrain warranty so long as they do the work and tune it. I'm going to take my car up to have a limited slip rear diff and 4.10 racing gears. They have no problem with CAIs, exhausts, or other bolt-ons. It also helps they sponsor the local mustang club, and their business is no doubt comprised almost entirely of tuners and gearheads. Very smart on their part, since all Ford has these days are Mustangs.

Translation

[l4m3z0r]

Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation.

Translation: Gateway and Dell definitely won't honor the warranty and wish to remain free from bad press until they are forced to reveal the truth.

Re:Translation

[TheGratefulNet]

dell is ALSO guilty:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?for um=1004&thread=22581483

no WONDER why they had 'no comment'.

Re:Translation

[taniwha]

in my experience (twice now) Dell will honor their warranty if you run Linux (but then I always return the laptop without the hard drive), but both times I told them I ran linux

This is disappointing

[c0l0]

and surprising to me at the same time - HP always seemed to be "one of the good guys", fostering and supporting GNU/Linux and free software on many occassions (for instance, HP provides the quite powerful infrastructure for kernel.org).

I was going to go buy a HP notebook some time later this year, but as things turn out this way, I'll stick to Lenovo/IBM once more again...

Not Unreasonable

[ehaggis]

If Linux probes your hardware (monitor) and selects the incorrect settings, could that not potentially harm your screen? I am not saying Windows is not capable or the same problem, but at least you are not trouble shooting an entire OS. How does the woman know that she has not messed up some keyboard setting on Ubuntu? I would not want to be the tech who must troubleshoot over the phone a system which has a different OS than that which is installed. I love Linux, but you have to draw the line on troubleshooting somewhere.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[AKAImBatman]

If Linux probes your hardware (monitor) and selects the incorrect settings, could that not potentially harm your screen?

Not really. Modern CRTs have protection circuitry built in to prevent someone from overdriving the monitor. All you see is an error message saying "Signal out of Range". Besides, most new computers ship with LCDs, which do not have electron guns to overdrive.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[hobbesmaster]

If your software can break the hardware then your hardware is broken.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[oh_my_080980980]

From the Article:

"Until recently, she's been happy with it, and with Ubuntu Edgy. But a couple of weeks ago she began having keyboard problems. The keyboard is misbehaving when she begins to type quickly: keys are sticking and the space bar does not always respond when pressed."

KEYS STICKING. SPACE BAR DOES NOT RESPOND WHEN PRESSED. That's HARDWARE failure not SOFTWARE.

I sure as hell hope you are not a tech because if you can't read the article and understand the basics of her problem, you are a useless. Learn how to troubleshoot moron.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[Anonymous Coward]

If your software can break the hardware then your hardware is broken. Of course, since the software already broke your hardware.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[JacksBrokenCode]

A keyboard is not an example of such hardware.

Unfortunately they have a blanket policy stating that certain things must remain as installed in order not to void your warranty. Adding granularity to that policy in order to allow only certain pieces of hardware and (likely) only certain hardware vendors to be covered under the policy, etc. Each of those stipulations is going to require testing to make sure that it is solid enough to be covered by the warranty, etc. Doing this drives up support costs.

C'mon slashdot, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to install things on your own, accept that bulk etailers are geared for the computer-illiterate masses and your modifications will likely void warranties and support contracts. If you want to modify operating systems or hardware configurations without violating agreements you should purchase your box from a smaller supplier who is geared towards people like you or build it yourself. That will probably be more expensive than buying a cheap Dell, but it's the age-old axiom "you get what you pay for".

Slashdotters, for the love of god, please stop complaining that after shopping around for the cheapest deal you're not getting top-of-the-line service. This is as annoying as the people who buy all their airfares at the cheapest possible price and then complain that they don't have legroom.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[Carrot007]

> You trust an end user to tell you that a key is not working because it is sticking?

I'd trust one that ran linux.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[Dr Caleb]

If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[quintesse]

That silly of course, the likes of Dell and HP are definitely not the cheapest of the industry and normally you pay them more exactly because you expect at least some modicum of support from them. Remember that on the bill there is actually an item where you pay for support. I expect them to hold their end of the bargain. Which means that unless they can prove somehow that the damage was done by mistreating the hardware somehow (which could either be by playing football with it or by using faulty drivers) I want them to honor my warranty.

The thing is of course that those companies often try to shirk their responsibilities. It has happened several times in my life that companies tried to tell me that the problem was my own fault and that I had therefore voided my warranty. Normally it is enough to suggest that they check (and think) again which suggests to me that they just try to see if you will fall for it and fold as soon as you complain.

And with respect to airplanes: I would LOVE to be able to pay more for legroom!! Show me which airlines actually give me that option please! The only options I see are: a) tourist class = you will have more room if you go to the bathroom or b) business class = you pay triple the price and get enough room to have two small children play in front of you (which I have seen happen) and maybe even c) first class = like b) but you pay even more and I guess that nice flight attendant will even wipe your ass for you because why else would you pay such insane amount of money? Never having flow first class I can't speak from personal experience though.

I always thought: why not take out one row of seats and divide that space between 3 or 4 other rows and offer some kind of tourist+ class which has a price 1/3 or 1/4 higher than the normal tourist class ticket? Instead I always hope I will be in time to ask for seats near the emergency exists.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[mrbcs]

I had a shiny new installation of windows 95 back in the day. I still wasn't used to the file manager so this one time I had windows explorer open and I opened up winfile.exe to move some files to a floppy drive.

I killed the brand new floppy drive immediately. I couldn't believe it. First time I ever saw software kill hardware.

Re:Not Unreasonable

[JacksBrokenCode]

Your argument can also be bent in the opposite direction: If software can potentially damage hardware, the potential for damage is certainly not just limited to the OS. Must third-party applications be tested and explicitly excluded in a warranty? Hardware that can be damaged by software, whether it be in the kernel or the user space, is suspect to start with -- and the risk should not be placed on the consumer.

Testing third-party apps would be a monumental waste of resources. It would be much simpler to have it built into your agreement with the OS vendor (and the hardware/driver vendors) that the OS/drivers/hardware will not allow approved hardware to be damaged. Installing unapproved drivers or an unapproved OS would breach this integrity and therefore any promises of functionality can't be guaranteed and the warranty is broken.

same problem

[ChiefArcher]

I had the keyboard start acting up as well on mine. In addition the hard drive crashed sometime later.
In order for them to do ANY service on it..
A) I had to replace the hard drive with one that worked.
B) Install windows on that hard drive
C) Submit laptop to HP to get the keyboard fixed.
D) Get Laptop back..
E) Put bad hard drive back in
F) Ship it back to HP in order for them to fix the bad drive.

I pretty told them to pound sand and bought a keyboard replacement on ebay.

I will NEVER own another HP again.

Goodbye HP

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Oh well. Stop buying HP then. Fuck 'em.

As for your current problem, lie. Double fuck 'em. Tell the support rep you were mistaken, the machine having a keyboard problem has never had Linux. Any Slashdotter should be able to BS through a Windows troubleshooting session, and if they want you to run some app and send results, bite the bullet, tell them you'll have to call back later, backup, load Windows, get your hardware, and restore.

Re:Goodbye HP

[harrypelles]

If you go that route, and have to send the machine back for a repair, leave the hard drive out of it when you send it to them. Is it unreasonable to request that the customer keeps the hard drive (sensitive information) when they back to the manufacturer for repair?

Re:Goodbye HP

[sulfur]

Don't know about retail users, but we, as a business, have successfully sent laptops without hard drives to HP without any explanation and received them repaired. Though, all issues were diagnosable without the hard drive (such as bad LCD displays).

Re:Goodbye HP

[owlstead]

I've never have seen a problem with that. I have worked for the Dutch tech support on Gateway and we never had a problem with that. Of course, different tech support people from different markets may react differently. I've worked with the tech support guys for the Irish and British market and I must say both the tech support people as well as the customers were a complete horror to me (in general - there were also some very cool guys working there).

Gateway

[coren2000]

Gateway honoured their warrenty with me when my notebook's vidCard started acting up. I had Gentoo Linux dualed with XP on it at the time. I was actually past the 1 year warrenty by a few weeks too.

Uh, Car analogy?

[hobbesmaster]

Isn't there a part of the uniform commerce code about warranties only being voided by what you do to the product is the reason for its failure?

I mean if I buy a car and replace the breaks and several months later the air conditioning goes out, they can't void the warranty for what I did to the breaks.

Re:Uh, Car analogy?

[KillaBeave]

Yea there is, I wish I could remember the name of the law now. Basically it was to protect aftermarket parts makers and people who customize their cars. If I lower the car, only the warranty on the suspension is affected. If I change the mufflers on the car, only the warranty on the exhaust is affected. Here's a link to some info about it from SEMA. http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

Re:Uh, Car analogy?

[Kamots]

If I replaced the software in my cars computer, and then one of my doors falls off, I'd expect it to be fixed under warranty.

Now, if I destroyed my seals due to bad ignition timing, then that's arguably my own fault and wouldn't be covered.

Amazingly, this is how car warranties do work... unauthorized modifications don't void the entire warranty, they just void the coverage on damage that can be linked to your modification.

Now, IANAL, but it may not be a legally binding clause to state that loading a different OS invalidates the entire hardware warranty. I think there's consumer protection laws that'd require there to be a potential link between the two. Hence, replacing a physically defective keyboard should still be covered.

Its not just Linux

[alanshot]

they also will not honor the support warranty if you switch XP versions.

I bought a laptop several years back at Best Buy, but it only had XP Home on it. I did the usual dump and reload, and installed XP Pro using one of my spare open licenses. I tried downloading the drivers like I do for every other brand, only to find they didnt exist.

I called support to find out how to get the windows drivers, and was told that they warrant the unit as a whole, and if ANY different OS is installed, they wouldnt talk to me. He did say that after running the restore utility to recover the factory load that it would be valid again.

Turns out that if anything ever happened to that laptop's software, the course of action would not be to fix the driver, etc, but to wipe and reload from scratch.

Thanks for nothing HP.

The next day I took it back to Best Buy and exchanged it for a Sony.

Re:Its not just Linux

[glaswegian]

The biggest con I ever faced came from Medion / Carrefour (supermarket in France). I bought a Medion laptop in the supermarket chain and three months later a bios update for my model appeared on the Medion site. I flashed the BIOS and later found out that it had invalidated my warranty! Needless to say, I was lost for words ....

Re:Its not just Linux

[jimstapleton]

Interesting, My first notebook was a compaq, even with all the other issues, they didn't complain or void my warantee when I replaced the crappy Windows ME it came with, with 2000. However within a week after the warantee died, everything started falling apart. No support whatsoever. I also had to backpedal out of saying I had Linux installed at one point.

My next notebook was a Sony Vaio. It worked ok, until one day the touch pad and went flakey, and the power button kept slipping and getting stuck under the casing. I sent it in, fully functional except for what was mentioned, and the returned it, saying there was water damage to the motherboard, and they wouldn't replace it. The machine wouldn't even turn on after I got it back.

Those are two companies I won't deal with ever again for a personal computer. The annoying thing is, I bought the Sony before all this idiocy with the DRM and user abuse was known/public. Had I known, I would have expected that from them. As it is, I'll not buy another Sony product again.

I guess your post just made me think of my own experiences, althought they were a bit different, I used both of those vendors, in that order (although I only got the Sony from BB, another 'never again'...). My current notebook is a Toshiba, and the tech guy was utterly dumbfounded that I was worried putting a non-windows OS on my computer would void the warantee, he though the idea was ridiculous.

Who tells the support guy that you're using Linux?

[jandrese]

Seriously, if you have a fairly open and shut case of hardware failure, then there is no need to tell the person on the other end that you're using Linux. If your machine has to go back to the shop for repair, then slap the "restore" copy of Windows on it (assuming it's not too hosed to even boot off of CD) and send it back more or less the way you got it. If you don't have backups, well, it sucks to be you because most of the times the RMA guys won't save your data either.

However, if in the process of reinstalling the backup copy of Windows everything starts working again, well, maybe it was a problem with Linux after all.

Making too much of it

[stratjakt]

If she squawked up the chain, she'd get a new keyboard.

They have that policy because once some guy installs "random distro", and the wifi, or some other device "stops working", there's no way to troubleshoot that over the phone.

I wind up with that problem myself. It's hard with linux to know if the hardware has failed, the drivers have a bug, if they're configured incorrectly - or simply don't work at all. Especially when you're talking about that NDIS-wrapper crap.

I have a machine taht will randomly freeze up X - you can still ssh in, but X freezes. I dunno - is this X, nvidia's drivers, or the card? I dunno. Works fine in windows, so at least I ruled out the last option. I found a thread somewhere pointing to it being a bug. Like I said, I dunno.

Solution? Have a windows partition, even if it's on an old 3 gig drive - to be able to prove it's hardware that failed.

a little misleading

[brunascle]

from TFA:

In order to get warranty service, she was told, she would have to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS.

so you dont actually lose your warranty, it's just not honored until you reinstall windows. sounds like the tech support people just dont want to have to do their over-the-phone support unless they're working with windows. they should at least let her send the notebook in and swap out the hard drive with a windows-partioned one and test it.

Re:a little misleading

[ack154]

This is exactly it... they support what they supplied with the system - hardware or software. What's so wrong about that? Why is everyone throwing a fit about this?

I had Dell do the same thing a while back. I had a network card go in one of their systems, but I had upgraded it to XP (shipped with 2000) and they told me they couldn't help me unless it was in it's original condition. Though the guy on the phone said he'd help me get it back to that state if I wanted... I laughed and hung up. Called back when it was back to "normal" and got service as expected.

Why tell them which OS you run?

[$lingBlade]

Why bother telling them which OS you run if it's anything *other* than what came pre-loaded on the system? If I had a hardware issue, big or small, and I called Tech Support for a place like Dell, HP/Compaq, etc, and they asked what I was running for an OS I'd happily lie to them and tell them it was Windows XP or whatever came pre-loaded.

It's the same thing dealing with Tech Support idiots in other countries who can't deviate from a script. They ask if I've done X, Y, Z and I gladly pretend as though I'm going through those exact steps until I reach the point in their script where they either need to escalate the issue or issue an RMA or pickup for repairs.

I'm not saying this lady is an idiot, but come on, have some common sense!!! If you call some PC manufacturer with a hardware issue, and they ask you what OS you're running, tell em' it's all stock. Same with cars. These companies work hard to fuck you out of your money and would love to dismiss your claim for support (however warranted), for any reason they can.

In short: "...If someone asks you if you're a God, you say YES!!!"

Re:Why tell them which OS you run?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

So in other words, because HP is dishonest, their customers should be dishonest too? Greeeat. That'll help.

Here's a radical idea: everyone lives up their obligations. HP sold a laptop with a warranty. The warranty (if I read TFA correctly) says nothing about what OS should be running on the machine. They are obligated, ethically and legally, to fix the machine under that warranty.

Customers also have an obligation in such situations: when they call tech support, they are obligated (ethically if not legally) to tell the truth. When you call tech support, you're admitting that you have a problem you can't solve yourself; odds are pretty good that you don't know what information is relevant to solving the problem, and so you should answer all the questions they ask you. Of course, you should also be able to answer the questions, without having to worry that you'll lose support as a result ...

It's absurd to blame the customer in a case like this. She was doing what she was supposed to do; HP wasn't. This sounds like massive lawsuit material, and I hope she gets enough money from them to buy a brand-new laptop (from someone other than HP, probably) every day for the rest of her life.

Speculation

[Puff of Logic]

It's interesting to speculate as to the reason for this odd policy. The keyboard issues cited in TFA are clearly a purely hardware problem, unrelated to software. I've run some fairly iffy code, but I've yet to encounter something that would make my keyboard start sticking (some websites, however...). This policy's genesis would seem to lie in either ignorance or entanglement and I'm genuinely curious as to which one it is. Is it that HP's tech support folks are poorly adept with Linux and therefore officially eschew non-official installs? Or is there some sort of corporate pressure from Microsoft to make it less easy for Joe Blow to run Ubuntu and its ilk?

Given that HP (again, from TFA) sells laptops with Linux pre-installed, the former seems unlikely. The latter is indeed a fascinating can of worms.

Show me

[smooth wombat]

"Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux."

I would ask the rep to point out where in their warranty this is stated. If it's not in the warranty, they have to honor the request. If they refuse to honor the request, go to your state's Attorney General and file a complaint. After that, post your comments on every blog you can find related to computers. Nothing gets accomplished more quickly than when bad PR is involved.

As someone higher up said, what does what software one has loaded on your system have to do with malfunctioning hardware?

Re:Show me

[Red Flayer]

From the HP Warranty FAQ (emphasis mine):

Q17. Will my warranty be affected if I install a non-HP upgrade/option in my HP product ?
HP warranty extends only to HP products and options. If you install a non-HP option into your HP product and this option then fails, you must contact the supplier for warranty cover on that item.
The warranty on your HP product will not be affected by the installation of a non-HP upgrade/option unless your HP product is damaged as a result of installation and/or operation of a third party option, such damage will not be covered by HP warranty.
If your HP product is not operating correctly, you may be asked to verify that any non-HP option is not responsible for the problem be[sic] uninstalling any such items.

Can you prove that Linux didn't cause the hardware problem? If not, then your SOL.

Good question, Drivers?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

There's a warning in x86config when setting monitor refresh rates that warns you that your choice may destroy your monitor. Granted, thats not a necessary step in a lot of installs, and most people have moved to LCD screens that wouldn't explode, but I think they were thinking of something similar to that. Badly written drivers CAN destroy hardware, in rare cases.

Or, the higher level software may shorten the lifetime of hardware. Maybe Linux uses the hard disk more than Vista, which leads to higher usage frequency which causes it to reach its MTBF earlier.

Is it fair, no, not really. I'm sure you could wear out your hardware just even faster with certain applications.

They can't possible start rejecting the waranty, depending upon3rd party apps installed could they? I'm sure Something like Maya or Blender could put a lot of use on a hard disk, especially on a low end system without much RAM.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[badfish99]

Back in the old days, some monitors would fail to sync to some refresh rates, and the display would collapse to a dot in the centre of the screen, which would burn a hole in the phosphor (or worse).

I don't think monitors like that have been sold for the last 20 years or so, but the warning has never been removed from the manual.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[CastrTroy]

Most monitors sold in the last 10 years know which resolutions/refresh rates they support and will display an appropriate error screen if you feed it the wrong signal.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[kosmosik]

Well you probably can bork your hardware from Windows as from Linux (if your really, really wish to do so). But right now it is near to impossible to do it accidentaly.

For me it is fine that HP does not support Linux - they don't have to. But they should have strict policies like:

- phone technical support applies only when running supported operating system (i.e. Windows XP)
- when submitting hardware for warranty you allow us to wipe all data on your system (i.e. put fresh image of Windows and then diagnose the problem)

I know that when it comes to keyboard-keys-stucking problem it is no way a fault of the OS. But on the other hand I don't expect that any vendor will do phone support for any given operating system that I could probably install on the hardware.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[kasperd]

There's a warning in x86config when setting monitor refresh rates that warns you that your choice may destroy your monitor.

That shouldn't be true with modern hardware. Five years ago I got a new CRT (replacement for an old one which was kind enough to die shortly before the end of the warranty). The shop had told me, the new one supported the same frequency ranges as the old one, so I just connected it and started up the computer. Once X started, the monitor went black and showed a message stating the input frequency was outside the supported range. And I guess that kind of protection was pretty much standard at monitors at that time. The monitor didn't break, but of course I returned it anyway, cause I was supposed to get a new one at least as good as the old one. (Apparently the sales people didn't know that 75kHz was less than 85kHz.)

Badly written drivers CAN destroy hardware, in rare cases.

No. Badly designed hardware can destroy hardware. If there is any way in which the software can destroy the hardware, it is by definition a latent flaw in the hardware. Yes, a badly designed driver can expose the flaw, but the hardware was already flawed. And yes, sometimes manufactures do produce an entire series of equipment where all of it suffers from the same latent flaw. As long as it is one component destroying itself, it may be reasonable to deal with. It of course gets worse if one piece of hardware has a flaw which causes it to destroy other hardware. (Imagine a flaw in a graphics board that allows a bad driver to drive up the output voltage to the point of breaking the monitor. Luckily that scenario is probably highly unlikely, but I guess high voltage is the most likely thing which isn't trivial for hardware to protect itself against).

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[dgatwood]

Exception: a firmware updater. If hardware has firmware that can be updated, you can hose it with software by uploading broken firmware. The hardware should check to see if the checksums are right and stuff like that, but that won't keep somebody who wants to break hardware from doing so. There's usually no good way to prevent that; the firmware must be valid for the device to show up on the bus so that you can flash the firmware. Thus, if the firmware is hosed, so is the device. I suppose that for a bit more money, you could do an unwritable base image with a reset button, but that only helps if you know about the reset button. Your typical user would simply see it as a dead device.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[evolseven]

Or in the case of some of the older CRT monitors, the display couldn't sync higher than say 36khz (horizontal sync). I actually have an older CRT projector that wont sync higher than 36khz horizontal. If I were to feed it anything higher than 960x540p@60hz I would actually blow several transistors in the machine. So it is possible to damage hardware with software for sure. Although I am pretty sure any monitors that could be damaged would be well out of warranty by now.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

[DrCode]

Good point, and it might be true of applications too. For example, heavy use of emacs might wear out the 'Esc' and 'Ctrl' keys.

Standard practice

[DogDude]

As somebody who worked at various helpdesks for a few years as a phone monkey, this is SOP with any company. You can't run through the troubleshooting scripts unless the software on the PC is exactly or very close to the initial load. Helpdesk people are not trained to solve problems, just go through the appropriate steps. So, if you want your warranty honored, suck it up and install Windows. You would have known this if you had read the fine print when you bought the damn thing. If you want a Linux notebook, then buy a Linux notebook. Talk about a sense of entitlement...

Re:Standard practice

[LWATCDR]

Too bad.
If that is an issue then they can include a bootable CD that puts the hardware in a known state without overwriting the hard drive.
There is no such thing as a none custom software set up. People load software and yes even sometimes malware on a system. There is an assumption with a computer that you will load software on it. If they are going to not offer warranty support if I load a different OS then it is up to HP to clearly state that before I buy a computer from them.
And let's be honest. From what I have heard about HP/Compaq there tech-support is reload the the restore image and if that doesn't work send it in.
Don't get me started on what a ripe off HD based restore images are! Yea you have an 100 gigabyte hard drive but X amount is your restore partition because we are too cheap to include a disk.

Sticky keys of evil

[roman_mir]

Laura Breeden bought a new Compaq Presario C304NR notebook in January. She bought it because she wanted to get rid of Windows and all the malware that surrounds it and move to Linux, and her old laptop lacked the memory and power to run Ubuntu Edgy. The salespeople assured her that the C304NR was "Linux ready." But they didn't tell her that running Linux would void her warranty. - this does not say whether she bought the laptop with MS Windows preinstalled. Not like it matters much, just a question.

Until recently, she's been happy with it, and with Ubuntu Edgy. But a couple of weeks ago she began having keyboard problems. The keyboard is misbehaving when she begins to type quickly: keys are sticking and the space bar does not always respond when pressed. - they don't build them like they used to.

When she called Compaq -- the unit comes with a one-year warranty on the hardware -- they asked what operating system she was running. When she told them Linux, they said, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." In order to get warranty service, she was told, she would have to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS. - now this is trully evil (thus my question, was MS Windows preinstalled on the laptop? From the CSR it sounds like it was.) In any case what do sticky keys on a keyboard have to do with the OS?

Laura is not a software engineer, but she failed to see how her choice of operating system could damage the keyboard. Furthermore, there isn't a word about the subject on the Compaq C304NR Web page -- nothing to alert consumers to the fact that if they chose a reliable, secure operating system like Linux instead of Windows, they would lose their rights to service under warranty. - Laura is not a software engineer, but she is at least 10 times smarter than those Compaq representatives, but she is not evil enough.

She bought the notebook from Best Buy, and they did their best to sell her a maintenance contract ($200 for three years). But since the notebook only cost $549, she thought that was a lot of money to add to the purchase price, and she also thought that she could depend on the Compaq warranty. - or maybe she IS EVIL? What? Not paying for the obligatory extra warranty from Best Buy? Evil I tell you.

I've been tracking this story for a couple of weeks with a PR rep from Hewlett-Packard Customer Service, who has been trying to "do the right thing" by Laura. There has been some discussion of swapping her unit with an HP notebook which is available with Linux preinstalled, but after a couple of weeks of back and forth, nothing has changed. - normally 'do the right thing' in large corporations means either doing nothing (best case) or doing something trully evil, like suing the customer for their choice of product.

The PR rep told me, after wading through all the terms and conditions attached to the notebook's warranty, that "it is impossible to anticipate every single issue that a customer can face, so the terms and conditions of warranties can't list every possible scenario. Usually if a customer installs a different OS, it has a big impact on the PC and will void the warranty. - BS. Evil BS. Usually the OS does not do anything intrinsically bad to the hardware it is running, except for using it of-course.

However, since the OS couldn't have been responsible for keys sticking on a notebook keyboard, I think this is an exception to the rule." She also asserts that Compaq's "warranty terms and conditions are in line with the rest of the industry." - yeah, it is in line with the industry of Evil. Sticking keys on a product must be a new evil way that a customer is trying to undermine the innocent distributor.

I have a feeling that she is correct about that. Gateway and Dell have both declined to respond to queries about their own warranty coverage in a similar scenario. Tier one manufacturers like Dell and HP are locked up in double-blind secrecy about their marketing deal

it's good to have a Thinkpad

[Yonder Way]

Linux is actually a supported OS on some Thinkpads.

Vote with your $$$. If HP is screwing you, screw them. Give someone else your money that values your business.

I cheated and RTFA'd

[xs650]

FTFA
" "When she called Compaq -- the unit comes with a one-year warranty on the hardware -- they asked what operating system she was running. When she told them Linux, they said, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." In order to get warranty service, she was told, she would have to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS."

HP didn't refuse warranty coverage, they told he she needed to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS to get warranty service.

That is completely reasonable. The script readers doing the trouble shooting at HP wouldn't be able to trouble shoot a system that didn't have the OS on it that HP originally installed.

Re:I cheated and RTFA'd

[drinkypoo]

HP didn't refuse warranty coverage, they told he she needed to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS to get warranty service. That is completely reasonable.

That is completely illegal as per the Magnuson-Moss warranty act, which prohibits any tie-in requirements in warranties unless it can be proven that they are necessary for proper functioning of the device.

The other side of the coin: you cannot refuse warranty service to a customer who has used a non-specified product with the system unless you can show that the product they were using can cause the product to fail/be damaged.

You simply can not require the use of windows. If they want a known diagnostic environment on the machine, they can put it in the BIOS. But they can't legally prevent you from using Linux on your own computer. And unless the warranty specifically says that you must be running the packaged OS to get service, then you don't need to. But because of the Magnuson-Moss act, they can't specify that, because it would be an enforced tie-in and thus a violation of federal law.

At least, that's how I read the law. I'm not a lawyer and am not familiar with relevant case law. I would love to hear from an actual lawyer on this.

Re:I cheated and RTFA'd

[Chazmyrr]

You have misunderstood Magnuson-Moss.

If HP sold the computer without an operating system, and the warranty specified that it would be void if you did not use HP OS289 (sold separately), that would be a prohibited tie-in (if HP had not previously obtained a waiver to the tie-in clause from the FTC). It does not apply in this case as HP provided an operating system with the computer.

The warranty does specifically state that they can require a specified configuration prior to providing warranty service. This is not a tie-in provision because they are not requiring you to buy an additional product.

HP is saying that before they provide warranty service, they want to test their product without any aftermarket modifications to see if the defect is actually in their product. They don't have prove that a different operating system can damage their computer because they aren't invalidating the warranty if you ever use a different operating system. However, if you refuse to return your computer to a supported configuration, you are the one that has to prove that the defect could not be a result of your modifications.

Re:I cheated and RTFA'd

[drinkypoo]

No, they aren't requiring that she use an additional product. They are requiring that she use the operating system that was provided with the machine when she bought it. Your transmission fluid analogy is also faulty. If you used a non-specified transmission fluid in your transmission and there was a problem that could legitimately be related to that transmission fluid, or couldn't be diagnosed with their normal procedures because of the transmission fluid you would be SOL.

Yes, the operating machine provided with the machine, to which the warranty does not apply. And in the latter case, yes, if there was a problem that could legitimately be related to the transmission fluid, then yes, they could deny you service. That's why transmission fluid conforms to standards; you just pick another fluid that conforms to the same standard.

If they needed their tranny fluid to do a diagnostic, then they would be responsible for putting it in, because they cannot require that I use it. They can only require that I use a fluid that conforms to proper standards.

Re:Who tells the support guy that you're using Lin

[brunascle]

Who tells the support guy that you're using Linux?

they start to suspect things when you laugh at them after they tell you to click Start -> Run

Re:Who tells the support guy that you're using Lin

[stratjakt]

Unless the whole thing is staged to generate nerd-rage on slashdot.

What proof is there that this event ever happened? I know that HP is pretty hated around /. and linux.com in general.

Here's a story: I called novell support, the guy called me a "faggot" and told me to "go fuck myself". I called Apple to order an iPhone and they told me the same thing. They also said the holocaust was a lie! Boycott Apple please.

Same problem here with HP & harddrive

[GiMP]

I had this problem too when a harddrive failed. I ran badblocks and smartctl against the drive, both reported failures. However, they refused to replace it, as we ran Linux.

After 8 hours of phone conversation and repeated readings of the warranty, verbatim, to the manager, I finally was able to have them consent to accepting the use of their disk-testing utility from a bootable DOS disk, rather than from within a pre-installed Windows OS. They refused to accept the smartctl and badblocks output, regardless of having support for Linux. Apparently, the hardware we had did not quality for Linux support, thus they would not allow us to use Linux-based utilities to prove a hardware failure.

With the amount of time that they spent with me on the phone, it would have been far less expensive for them to simply send me a new drive, rather than waste time debating semantics.

Suggested fix

[Flying pig]

A possible fix, and relatively cheap insurance, is to buy a new HDD of the correct type at the time you buy the laptop. On the original disk, do all the registration stuff, clean off the corporate malware, patch Windows, Ghost, then just remove the disk (nb don't forget to remove batteries - on the Acer 1500 series, the HDD crate is accessible by removing the battery, which is well thought out.

Now install new HDD and the OS of your choice. If the system fails under warranty, switch hard drives and try rebooting. If it works fine, you know you have an OS problem. If it doesn't, claim under warranty.

Assuming you back up regularly, this is a good insurance strategy. I experienced it the other way when an update to Ubuntu caused an unrecoverable video driver problem and I needed my email back urgently. It took well under an hour to reload the Windows HDD, move the Thunderbird data back from the server, and carry on till a fix was available.

Encountered this as well

[Zarhan]

Needed to send a Linux-running Omnibook to RMA (bad Combo drive - couldnt read DVD's or burn CDs). Solved the problem by using sysrescue-liveCD (which it could read), and just doing an image from the harddrive to another computer over NFS. Then punched in the original WinXP "restoration CD"s and shipped the thing away. When it came back, just restored the images.

THEREALISSUE

[Gary W. Longsine]

SHIFTKEYBROKENTOO.

This is why....

[brunes69]

This is one of the reasons why whenever I buy a PC I never remove windows. I just shrink the partition to it's minimal size plus a GB or two, install linux, set it to default. Sometimes I even remove Windows from the grub menu.lst so I can't choose it by accident :)

There are several reasons you should not uninstall windows. One is what this article is about, warranty support. If you ever have a hardware issue you can just delete the linux paritions (after a backup) and ship the thing; unless the tech has some weird reason to do forensic analysis on the HD they will never know it ever had linux on it.

There are other reasons too - wine works better with some applications when you can point it at some actual windows DLLs. Also, you have the ability to boot into Windows to play the occasional game or other multimedia nonsense that don't work in Linux.

Really I don't know why someone who bought a PC that came with Windows, which THEY PAID FOR, would just go erase it anyways. It's a total waste of money, and you aren't sending anyone a "message".

Disk space is dirt cheap. Until you can buy PCs barebones with the Windows tax removed, IMO it is ill-advised to un-install.

Re:This is why....

[codemachine]

It would seem to make more sense for the vendors to have a LiveCD version of Windows to boot and test with, instead of assuming that you'll never modify your hard drive. For those who actually keep Windows and use it, their setup would hardly be "factory" anyhow.

If you're going to require an untouched install for warranty, then you'd better be the ones providing it, either via a ROM chip, a LiveCD, or through a seperate recover partition that buyers are instructed not to wipe (or else warranty is void). In which case you should also state the "usable" hard disk space, not the total, when selling the machine.

Expecting people to not actually write to their hard drive, therefore not using the system at all, is a pretty stupid requirement for hardware warranty anyhow. And is almost certainly illegal in most juristictions.

Death of hardware diagnostics

[Animats]

Nobody has hardware diagnostics any more. It used to be that when you had a hardware problem, you booted the hardware diagnostics disk and ran tests. Better manufacturers provided you with such a disk.

Today, most of the "PC diagnostic" tools run on Windows, which assumes Windows is 1) installed, and 2) will run. This makes sense, because Windows is most likely to be the defective component.

This probably isn't even HP policy.

[shaitand]

Once upon a time I worked for Sony and performed tech support for their PC's. Here is the way it works. The company has a policy, they only support the operating system the machine was shipped with. This means if the machine shipped with WinME then only ME would be supported on that machine. If the customer later upgraded to 2000 or XP it would void the warranty. All we could do, as a courtesy, is direct them to the appropriate drivers for that version of windows on the website. However, this only voids the software warranty.

Here is the problem. If you have a bad motherboard with a flaky usb port. As a Sony tech rep there is a troubleshooting routine I am required to go through before I can issue an RMA on that hardware. That routine involves a number of windows based steps. If you aren't running the shipped OS AND the same VERSION of the shipped OS then I am not allowed to go through a troubleshooting routine with you.

Unless it is a case of clear hardware failure, you would have to perform a complete system recovery before we could help you. If you didn't have the discs then I could refer you to where you could buy a replacement copy for $40. If you didn't want to lose your data then your SOL, the first thing the repair center does when you send in your PC is a complete system recovery anyway.

Technically your hardware warranty isn't voided by installing another operating system. But it may very well effectively be voided since I can't go through the troubleshooting procedures required to issue you an RMA.

you have to press them

[yagu]

Shazbot, not early enough in the thread to help... sigh.

I had a similar experience. I configured my HP laptop to dual boot, absolutely loved the machine. But the opening and closing eventually loosened the video display connector so badly, you had to hold the display at just the right angle to get it to come on and/or stay on. I called HP support, and through painful session lasting more than an hour someone pretending to be able to speak English (this was one of the reasons the call lasted so long -- repeatedly had to ask for instructions until I could understand), I had to jump through all of their hoops which included, but was not limited to:

• reboot
• reboot again, but this time leave off for 30 seconds
• reboot by powering off
• uninstall driver and reboot to re-detect display and re-install drivers

Of course I'd long since tried everything the support tech offered, but he would not let me go to the next level until I'd completed his script. Somehow during the course of the call I'd let slip I had the machine up as dual-boot, and that's when the whole dialog and relationship went South.

When he heard it was a dual-boot machine he said the machine would not be covered under warranty, as that may have been the cause of the problem. I pleaded my case, he wouldn't budge. I asked for his manager, he put me on hold ostensibly to do that, but I got disconnected.

I re-called the help center, got someone who spoke only slightly better English, and who, surprise!, had the notes from my previous call. There was no going back on my dual boot debacle. He too declined any warranty support, and he too somehow lost my connection when "going for his manager".

Fuck it. I went to the HP on-line site, found contact info for the corporate offices, called that number (don't remember which one), and got someone in Texas (she said so). I described my problem, and why I thought it was a hardware problem and was unrelated to the dual boot setup. She immediately agreed with me, and said they would cover the repair if it turned out to be hardware.

She cautioned that when it arrived for warranty work at the labs it was common for them to completely format the hard drive when doing diagnostics and advised that if I wanted to be sure of my machines integrity to remove the hard drive and ship it sans disk drive. She agreed if the hardware problem was as we guessed, it would be repaired under warranty, no questions asked.

I sent it, they fixed it, done! It was a headache, and the extra kind treatment and effort from the last tech elicited a thank you call from me to her manager for exceptional cool under pressure (I was pretty hot by then).

For me, the problem was less with HP's willingness to support and more with the outsourced, pseudo-english speaking work force ostensibly to provide me with support. It doesn't work -- they don't get it, and it has really hurt HP's reputation with me... I've since purchased and owned 7 more computers, and not one of them has been an HP. Their loss.

Dell did this to me once.

[UtucXul]

Dell pulled the same thing with me a long time ago. I had a Pentium 2 running Red Hat 7 or so and Windows 2000. The Ethernet card died while under warranty. Dell support refused to replace it because I didn't have the factory installed OS (Windows 98). So it may be more of an running any unapproved OS, not just GNU/Linux.

I went through several levels of tech support before they finally told me that if I had a problem with the warranty, I could talk to their legal department. I decided that the best solution was to not do business with Dell anymore.

This was while ago, so it is possible that they have changed their policies for personal support (not business where I hear they are better), but I doubt it.

Why this is illegal

[drinkypoo]

IANAL, but this same issue has come up before. I'm sure someone will let me know (specifically, with citations please) where I am making incorrect assumptions.

I visted the FA and saw a comment from an alleged HP employee defending this policy. The following is my response to him. See the comment link for the full text of his comment.

...babble above, content below...

In the case of the car industry, most warranties would be voided if you change the most minimal detail on the car. I had a friend that couldn't get the car serviced under the warranty because he changed the seat belts.

If your friend changed the seat belts to street legal parts, then he was protected by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. The following is the specific text of the US Code which specifies this protection:

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if--
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

In other words, assuming the warranty service had nothing to do with seat belts or their mounting hardware, OR he used street legal parts (and using DOT listed safety harnesses is quite legal, even on the street - replacement hardware must MEET OR EXCEED OE specifications) then it was quite illegal to deny him warranty protection.

By the same token, it is QUITE illegal to deny someone warranty protection because they are using an operating system which is different from that shipped with the unit unless it can be shown that the system will not work properly with that other software installed. Since Linux is no more likely to cause hardware failure than Windows, it would be trivial to prove that this is a violation of US Code (TITLE 15, CHAPTER 50, 2302 (c)) and your employer would lose a fat sack of cash in a lawsuit, to be followed by a bigger sack of cash in a class-action lawsuit for anyone who purchased an HP laptop, etc etc.

I don't see what the big deal is on returning the computer back to factory state. It makes everything easier on everyone. If it wasn't for standardized processes, 2 day turnaround time wouldn't be possible.

The machine should be booted with a diagnostic LiveCD for testing. You cannot assume that hardware problems are actually real problems until you test with a known good software platform. This argument is complete nonsense.

Also, the tech support department is only trained on Windows. Troubleshooting must be done in every case. If the staff is not trained, they can't troubleshoot on that platform.

See my last point. (I found it useful to respond to your points in psuedorandom order.)

Also remember that thanks to those secret deals between HP/Compaq and Microsoft, the computer that that particular customer got was that price and not more expensive.

Those deals are an example of price fixing and bringing them up is the most specious argument in the whole comment.

HPQ's policy on Linux and warranties is quite blatantly a violation of federal law.

Re:Why this is illegal

[drinkypoo]

And yeah, business support is completely different. That's what usually makes an identical "business" machine so much more expensive. I just ran across this... I bought an old, off-lease Proliant a few years ago. I needed some help with parts (RAM, drive cages, etc.), and it was waaaay out of warranty. It was a long shot, but I was surprised as hell when they helped me with no questions asked.

I had the same experience with a Dell Precision Workstation 410, a dual-processor intel box (P2 I think) that was, once upon a time, a super badass. Of course now it's a turd, but Dell was still quite helpful when I called them up, gave them the service tag number, and asked them questions.

In general, buying server or workstation class hardware definitely gets you a hell of a lot more respect on the phone. This laptop, in fact, is a "mobile workstation" (says so right next to the keyboard.) It came with less preloaded bullshit, but so far I haven't seemed to get notably more respect on the phone. I told them that my trackpoint cover was coming off when it shouldn't and they first blamed me for it, so I sent them a big nastygram email about how I expected better from HP tech support, especially on a workstation class system, and I would be happy to buy from someone else next time. They ended up sending me a whole baggie of the new tips, which lo and behold, have a different part number on them than the original. In other words, they have already been revised, but they were still willing to deny that there was a problem.

HP has been pissing me off more and more lately, though. I would rather choose anyone else, except Sony. Even before the Lik-Sang, Blu-Ray, and "Probably too cheap" crap, I didn't buy Sony because it was shit. I had a Vaio way back when, support on the machine continued past the release of Windows 2000 but they never bothered to bring out drivers for the graphics chipset, even though the manufacturer of the graphics chipset (Neomagic) had themselves developed drivers (which they were releasing only to OEMs.) There was one in the IT office at the same time I chose this HP, and it had been here only for a week and was already falling apart - and this was or was near to their flagship at the time, a core duo system with a 17" widescreen.

I would have bought the MBP, but not with ATI graphics. *shudder* Otherwise it would be the ideal linux workstation. Well, if it had three buttons instead of one.

Magnuson-Moss

[Akita24]

IANAL but if the O/S wasn't specifically excluded, then they can't deny the warranty unless they can PROVE that my "modification" caused the failure: 1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of this law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle makers brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part: "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name...." (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)). And to the apologists / excuse makers: Screw 'em. The company's job is to get as much money from me (the consumer) with as little outlay as possible, thereby maximizing profit. My job as a consumer is exactly the opposite: To get as much from the company for as little of my money as possible. It is not my job to give a rats ass what their excuses or problems may be, any more than they care about my ability to make house payments or feed my children.

Not illegal for my desktop

[Klaus_1250]

Same here, though I just use a second HD for Linux and FreeBSD. BTW: I just contacted HP through chat, and asked if running Linux/FreeBSD would void my warranty. The answer was that running Linux would not void the warranty of my particular model (Pavilion t.490). It took a minute or 2 for the answer, but, it seems like HP does have some sort of list of Linux-compatible models. 8 years ago, I loaded FreeBSD on a Toshiba laptop (Satellite 320CDT). The first time I used X, I was greeted with a loud high pitched sound from the video-circuit (second try was ok), so I can understand the no-warranty statement for certain problems on certain models. Though I can't understand the relation between keyboard problems, loading Linux and no warranty. PS: During the support-chat, it was mentioned three times that Windows would run best, the computer was designed for Windows and I could not get support for Linux.

Re:Not illegal for my desktop

[rbanffy]

the computer was designed for Windows and I could not get support for Linux.

Just about every personal computer since mid 90's (Macs excepted) is designed to run a flavor of Windows. Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them. Do you think Intel and AMD could not make a multi-core processor until about last year? They could do it since almost ever (I have seen multi-processor 386 systems), but there would be next to no market for them as Windows 98 couldn't use more than one processor.

Truth is - most computers are really designed to run Windows and this has inhibited or postponed many technical advances. We still use glorified 5150's.

BTW, manufacturers are quite happy with this.

Warranty Act

[jimlintott]

I would think that under the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act that her machine is still warranted by law.

The act says that you can't tie people to only certain products. It's why having your car's brakes fixed at a small shop doesn't void the vehicle's warranty. If you look at Linux as just a part then she should have recourse.

I'd take them to small claims.

It seems to be covered here

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

Seems to me that saying use Windows or no warranty is a violation.

Standard disclaimer = IANAL

Right hand, meet left hand...

[HalfOfOne]

HP (as a whole) can't hate Linux. I know this because we run HP servers where I work, and their entire Smartstart process for loading the OS onto their servers are Linux driven.

This is a simple case of a helpless helpdesk for the desktop division not being able to peer above the edges of their box, let alone think outside of it. Nonstandard? Exterminate it. Not our problem. This is true of every level 1 desktop support organization I've ever seen.

I doubt you'd get the same response from the gold level guys on the server side of things. Actually, IIRC, one of them used a minix variant to troubleshoot a problem I had with an old LC3, since we didn't want to mess with the existing disks or OS partition.

Is HP as a whole to blame? Yeah, they should get their stuff together. But they're sitting in a field of pariahs at the moment.

A good reason not to buy from them ...

[jopet]

I just wonder if they make this sufficiently clear before one buys the hardware.
However, this practice is really only possible in countries with rather lax customer protection laws.
At least in most European countries, this practice would very likely be illegal since the customer has a legally granted right to get faulty hardware replaced within a certain time (usually 12 months). This cannot be legally made dependent on what software the customer chooses to run on his computer.

The old "voided your warranty" scam

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

A few years ago, there was a story here on Slashdot about a guy who wrote an insider account of working for either Gateway or Dell. I think it was Dell, but it could have been Gateway. Anyway, he told about how he had a co-worker who was considered a tech support genius because his average call length was something like 45 seconds. Every call this guy got, he told the customer "Sorry. You violated your warranty." followed by the click of him hanging up. If they called back and got someone else who actually cared, then that person could work the ticket. His job was to get the customer off the phone ASAP. Management took notice and made him a supervisor because they just assumed that what he was doing was fixing problems really quickly and they had no idea he was just saying the same "Sorry. Not our problem." speech to every customer he talked to. I can't rule out a similar thing happening here.

installing Linux on HP PCs

[falconwolf]

The thing is, a serious Linux user will check out the hardware in advance and verify compatibility, and most serious users are knowledgeable in hardware to determine that there are hardware issues. However, newbies are not. You cannot categorically say that all Linux users know their hardware, because I have seen that this is not so. I have seen new users rage against companies like HP, Dell etc. when sometimes they have not bothered to RTFM.

Several years ago I found myself in a related problem. As someone new to Linux I wanted to get a new PC as the one I had then was dying and I wanted to install Linux on it. Back then there was a lot of press about how HP was working with and was going to be Linux friendly. So I went ahead and bought a Pavilion along with another hd and video card. The second hd was going to be for Linux and the video card was so I could use two monitors. I didn't have any trouble with either, the hd showed up in My Computer as did the video card. The video card worked fine with a second monitor. However when I tried to install Linux I found out the motherboard wasn't Linux compatible. It ended up being one of those combo boards with nic, sound, and video built onto the motherboard and there were no drivers for it.

I spent several hours searching through HP's tech support then emailing trying to see how I could install Linux on it and tech support just said it wasn't Linux compatible and they wouldn't support it. They said if I wanted Linux then I would have to order a PC with it from them. So I'm not supprized they wouldn't support this woman's laptop.

Falcon

Windows, Office, and Alphas

[falconwolf]

Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them.

I do have an Alpha close enough so my knee can touch it. It runs Win NT 4 and though I don't have it MS did release a version of Office to run on it. I think the only reason Alpha didn't last long was because DEC dropped the ball. They didn't do enough to market Alphas, Amiga deja vu all over again. They also didn't work on FX!32 enough to get it working tranlating software. On my Alpha I was only able to install one commecial app and a few shareware programs.

Falcon

I would not buy Compaq anyway...

[lewkor]

My experience with Compaq was that I bought Compaq after testing it with Mepis and Knoppix. Everything seemed to run at the store so I bought it. I had a hard time getting it to get the wireless running even in windows. The wireless card was a micro PCI card so I thought "lets just get a card that Linux supports". When I installed the card and booted the computer, it didn't get past the POST. There was an error message as soon as the BIOS came up saying, "Unsupported hardware detected" and it didn't even try to boot. This was only about 2 years ago. I simply won't buy a computer that mandates that I have to use hardware from the vendor. I sold it and got another computer that is completely supported. I also use every opportunity to warn poeple about such practices.

If thats the type of crap they want to pull with their hardware, I won't go anywhere near Compaq or HP!

Never ascribe to malice,...

[DimGeo]

... that which can be explained by incompetence. I doubt the phone jockeys could tell what was going on, they just knew their company only supports Windows. To dodge stupidity, one must learn to hmm... bend reality a little.

How can we be sure?

[sintral]

I'm an Ubuntu Edgy (now Feisty) user, and I can tell you first hand that after Synaptic does it's thing with online updates I am occasionally left with hardware that doesn't work correctly. I've had two systems onboard audio stop working altogether, my scroll wheel on my mouse quit working, my BlueTooth Logitech keyboard was no longer recognized automatically at boot time, my /boot was not longer recognized by grub on one occasion last week. I'd like to respond to several of the comments in one post as well.

1. Dell wouldn't help me get my Gigabit LAN card working with Ubuntu even though the card mfg said "supported with kernel 2.4.14 and higher". So they're no better than HP, but they did at least tell me they know nothing about Linux.
2. Even simple hardware support can be dropped following an online update
3. It's too expensive to have your tech support guys trained on multiple open-source OS's.
4. No Linux guru with the skills to troubleshoot OS/Hardware issues is going to work tech support, c'mon man

In A Better World That'd Be Fine

[Petersko]

"I suggest that anyone having hardware issues with a computer running Linux do the same: explain to the tech support people that the issue has nothing to do with software, and that you've diagnosed the specific hardware failure."

It's been a long time since I did my time on the front lines, but some things never change. You can't trust somebody who says they have diagnosed the specific hardware failure, because most of these people have about 80% less of a clue than they think they do.

Far too many times they were just wrong. And naturally they want others to pay for their misdiagnosis.

Policy is to wipe anyhow

[phorm]

HP's policy seems to generally be that the OS gets reimaged when the machine comes in anyhow. I was told this by a rep when sending my machine in for motherboard issues (zd7000 has issues using both RAM slots, Northbridge is a bit flakey). To avoid losing my data, I took out the 80GB drive and stuck in a blank 10GB. Oddly, the laptop came back with another 80GB drive and fresh OS install :-)

So I guess the solution is, don't mention linux, just stick a spare drive in and get a free upgrade.

I would file a small claims case pro se

[kurt555gs]

First off, I would never buy hardware from HP again. Secondly, I would go down to my local county court house, and file a claim in small claims court for the amount that I paid for the HP computer, then go over to the post office and send the complaint to HP by registered mail.

Total cost, about 16 bux and an hours time.

Now, HP could decided to help you, return your money, or send an attorney to BFE where you live to defend the case.

If they do nothing, you go to court and get a default judgment for the cost of they system. Another hour on your part.

So, they will honor the warranty linux or not, you just have to not lie down for their Microsoft inspired tactics.

Large corporations will try this all the time, you just have to make the effort to stop them.

Cheers

My anecdote

[AusIV]

If you've actually read the article, HP is saying they want the user to restore Windows before they will repair the system. To me this seems reasonable. If the keyboard works fine under Windows, it's a software problem and HP is under no obligation to trouble shoot it for her. If she re-installs Windows and the problem persists, they'll honor the warranty.

It may seem like something like this has to be a hardware problem - and it probably is. But I've seen things I was absolutely certain were hardware issues turn out to be software. My girlfriend has a Dell Laptop. A few weeks after the warranty expired, it quit charging her battery, even when off. I tried all sorts of things to get the battery to charge, I called Dell's tech support, posted on several forums, and eventually concluded that this was a motherboard problem and she was out of luck. A few months later, she decided she wanted to try out Linux - her anti-virus had just expired and she saw that I was quite happy with Kubuntu. When I put in the Live CD to install, I noticed the battery was charging. For whatever reason, her laptop's battery will charge under Linux, but not under Windows.

My point is, software problems can appear to be hardware problems. Sometimes switching operating systems will fix this. If I were the customer in question, my first step would be to try another Live CD. If the keyboard works fine on the live CD, I'd assume the problem was somewhere in my installation. If it still had problems, I'd back up my data, restore the computer to factory settings, and ship it back.

I don't see why people expect HP to support the computer without first being able to verify that the problem is unrelated to some third party software that they have no control over.