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Annual H-1B Visa Cap Met In One Day

Posted by kdawson on from the cheap-indentured-servitude dept.

CNet is reporting that the door has closed on the H1-B visa application process for this year, one day after it began. The US Citizenship and Immigration Services said that it had received 150,000 applications as of yesterday afternoon. 65,000 H1-B visas can be issued for foreigners with bachelor's degrees. The USCIS will choose randomly from the applications to determine the winners.

56 of 473 comments (clear)

  1. Shouldn't be a lottery. by jcr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Those spots should be auctioned off. The more an employer is paying for an H1-B visa, the more highly-skilled the worker in question is likely to be. IOW, we really will be getting those people with skills we can't find here.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That sounds like a good idea, as long as you ignore the feedback effect of any government auctions. I'm not sure that making H1B visas a revenue source is really conducive to fair policy decisions in the future.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    2. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by StikyPad · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's a classic catch-22, since first we'd need people with the skills to implement such an idea.

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
    3. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by jcr · · Score: 2, Funny

      Piece of cake: just outsource the app to implement it to InfoSys in Bangalore.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by Lewisham · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You aren't wrong, but getting the H1-B is difficult enough already. The company has to want you really bad to burn up an application, without a guarantee of success, that only happens once a year, and if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position. For the applicant it's all those things plus convincing the company you're worth it and probably having to fly there to see said company in person.

      I don't see what else this would achieve without just being a way of gouging money, and further screwing job-seekers who actually want to pay taxes, contribute to the economy and the growth of American companies. I don't subscribe to the idea that skilled workers take American jobs, I believe they help companies grow and generate more jobs in the long-term.

      I think that IT is indeed a global economy, and if America is not willing to take on the view that companies can benefit from cherry-picking out of an international workforce, someone else, like Canada or Sweden, will, and companies there will grow.

      Disclaimer: Yes, I am a bitter UK citizen with a Masters degree that can't get a visa to live with his Californian girlfriend that I met during my year of study in the USA. We had to come to New Zealand for us both to continue being together without getting married.

    5. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by kevin+lyda · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Never been to NZ, but from what I've seen/heard it sounds like you got a better deal.

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    6. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by iamacat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      medical fields - a field the US is sorely in need of more skilled people.

      Nope, there are plenty of skilled people. We just need to stop suing them so much and torturing them with inhuman work hours.

      yet lets the illegals who burden the system walk across the border without fear of repercussion.

      Those would be the ones who ensure you never have to worry about affording basic groceries in Safeway.

    7. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by Malggi · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...and if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position.


      Unfortunately, you remember wrong. The Economic Policy Institute has a great article on this that should probably be submitted to the main page. You can find the article here: http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html

      To quote the linked article:

      The most significant design flaw is the absence of a labor market test. The U.S. Department of Labor recently expressed the practical implications of this fact in a straightforward manner when it stated that "H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker." Simply put, an employer does not have to test the labor market before hiring a foreign worker on an H-1B.

    8. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by cluckshot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I personally think it should be bid out and not a lottery. We sell access to airwaves in this way, why not this?

      To be quite frank the whole issue is a trade war the USA is running against its own citizens and the tax evasion of certain employers in that trade war. Its really quite simple: The USA taxes away (state local and federal) about 65% of the income of its workers. The foreign workers come into the country without the embedded tax cost of about $300,000 (varies on the degree) of tax exempt investment due to the parties not having paid US Taxes. I know there are parties who will discuss VAT in EU etc. (Blecch! It doesn't compare because of US Debt for Education systems) The USA wants its people to pay lots of taxes and then floods the market with either tax exempt goods and services or with tax evasion devices like "Illegal Aliens" and H-1B etc. They even set up a mechanism called "Totalization" where parties work in the USA without even paying the US Taxes at all and without audit in their own countries to evaluate even the compliance with the small local taxes.

      I am sure I will hear from some people who don't understand this but this is the whole issue. A US BS graduate has an investment of about $300,000 of Tax Cost before they graduate. This has to be repaid. This requires the party to earn about $3,000 a month in income just to justify the expense. That is about $3,000/month more than their foreign competition. Of course any employer who can get an H-1B L-1 or other visa party in the country and does not have to repay this money is thrilled. This is in wages to the employee the difference between having to earn about $95,000 a year and doing well on about $40,000 a year. (approx - skip the math games) Of course an employer being able to get equal parties at that wage difference is thrilled. Try this with an MD and we are talking living well on $100,000/yr as alien and starving on $500,000 a year as a US MD as US Grad. Of course the Hospital or where ever still gets the payments that support the $500,000 a year but the MD doesn't. This causes the CEO of the Hospital a lot of income for every H-1B he can get!

      Regards the parent post's remark about living together and visas...., Try having a marriage.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    9. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by BVis · · Score: 2, Informative

      OK, you need to explain your concept of "tax cost". Are you saying that the taxes that both I and my employer pay are "losses" that must be "made up" in order to be fair? If that were the case, it would seem that you're putting that in the same light as, for example, education loans or mortgages. If you're meaning something different, I think the community might benefit from a citation or two fleshing out your point of view. (I think I've been reading too much Wikipedia discussion.) Personally, I look at my taxes as paying for services that benefit society (as inefficient and wasteful as they may be sometimes.) I personally like having an FBI, an FDA, a national military, and so forth.

      Your figure of 65% seems suspect to me. A quick glance at my last pay stub says that even when you consider both my and my employer's contribution to Social Security, the deductions (state and federal taxes, social security, and Medicare) are less than 30% of my income. Where does the other 35% come from? Even figuring in property taxes (in my case, less than 5% of my income alone, and we're a dual-income household) your number seems high.

      IMHO the reasons that H1-B workers are so popular with US employers are more complicated than simply the financial considerations. Outside of the tax advantages (whatever they might be), it's easier to exploit H1-B workers. Specifically, you can pay them less and make them do more work than their native American counterparts, because they have the threat of deportation if they quit for being treated unfairly. Companies will always treat an employee as badly as they can get away with in terms of salary, benefits, and corporate culture, and H1-B visa holders are at a disadvantage. I know that the rules say they're required to pay an H1-B visa holder the same as they pay a US citizen, but honestly, how well is that enforced (or, more to the point, how enforceable is it?) An H1-B worker who finds out his/her US citizen co-workers are getting paid significantly more than he/she is has little recourse. Sure, they can file a complaint with the appropriate agency, but that's a sure way to find yourself laid off and on a plane back to your native country before you can follow up.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    10. Re:Shouldn't be a lottery. by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Simply put, an employer does not have to test the labor market before hiring a foreign worker on an H-1B.

      It was eliminated for good reason however. Labor market tests are well-known to be a bureaucratic exercise of pointlessness--companies who sincerely attempt the labor market test end up falling prey to an outcome which is "ambiguous" and doesn't necessarily meet the immigration criteria. Companies who don't care about being sincere adjust their said requirements so that only one candidate in a million can fit it (which is of course recommended even to the honest companies to avoid the ambiguous result.)

      It's really just stupid for everyone involved. Countries usually use the labor market test as a way of preventing most types of immigration.

      The Economic Policy Institute has a great article on this that should probably be submitted to the main page.

      Eh. It's an article written by a partisan think tank, and the more I analyze it, the more it hits me as BS. There are much more neutral and realiable sources of info on this rather complex topic. The connection between the fact that Wipro is a major Indian company that does outsourcing and the fact that they have requested the most H1Bs is specious at best. After all, Wipro has expanded dramatically outside of India, and as part of that expansion, they needed a large quantity of North American employees--hence, they were asking for lots of H1Bs. Wipro and Infosys don't need the US employees to outsource to India. They were simply starting new outsourcing facilities in the US.

  2. Not an english major by gkozlyk · · Score: 5, Funny

    Batchelor degrees, eh? Didn't know you could get those too.

    --
    1. Re:Not an english major by aalu.paneer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, people with Batchelor degrees do bach processing.

      --
      where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
  3. We need more by phathead296 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is there anyone else here who thinks this is an indication that we need more Visas?

    While millions of unskilled illegals flood our borders every year, stressing our social safety net, the people we want in this country can't get in. We need more skilled workers who want to work within the system and work here legally and fewer unskilled workers who end up with a free ride at taxpayer's--mine and your--expense.

    1. Re:We need more by illegalcortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's questionable what percentage of these H1-B workers would be as desirable if they were here on regular visas. H1-B puts the employee in a certain position that very advantageous to the employer. I wouldn't mind finding out, though. I'm all for ditching the H1-B system and allowing full, unlimited immigration to highly skilled workers.

    2. Re:We need more by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please explain how letting in more highly skilled workers would keep low skilled workers from entering the country illegally. Unless you're suggesting hiring H1-B workers as border patrol agents, I don't see it.

    3. Re:We need more by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What the heck is wrong with the idea that Americans can be doing American jobs?

      Sure, many employers would rather hire someone that needs permission to change jobs and can pay them something less than someone born in the USA. Why do we want to give them that privilege?

      This has nothing to do with illegal immigration. The illegals are being exploited in the US almost as much (but not quite) as they were exploited and abused in their home country. But given that the reward of working in the US is so much higher than any compensation possible in their home country, the risk of dying to get here is perfectly acceptable. It is very difficult to combat that. Maybe in 100 years the economy in Central America might be better so the differential would be so much less that it wouldn't be practical for people to go to the US. But these economies are so rife with corruption and graft that it would take a miracle for such a transformation to occur. So it isn't going to be soon.

      Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.

    4. Re:We need more by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there were Americans to fill these spots, I wouldn't doubt that they'd be filled by Americans. It's a far cry from "throwing open the borders" (which I would imagine would apply more to unskilled jobs than skilled jobs anyway)

      The H-1B process is so costly, time-consuming, and unreliable that an employer would be insane not to.

      Instead, in effect, you end up with a talent-shortage. Americans are still out of a job, and companies are unable to maintain an edge in order to stay competitive in the international market. It's not like H-1B workers tend to live in poverty or get paid less than Americans either. Given that we're LOSING skilled workers to emigration, wouldn't it make sense to let more back in to fill the void?

      If we can't fill our jobs with our own people, then there is something seriously wrong with our education system that needs to be addressed immediately. Basic economics indicates that opening the job market up to competition would be the fastest and most effective way to make this happen.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    5. Re:We need more by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.
      You're going to have to do better than just assert that if you want people to believe you, because it makes it sound like you are either a racist who thinks that the culture of central america is inherently dishonest, or you are a poor economist who thinks that open borders will lead to massive depression such that the majority of the people in the US are unable to earn a living wage and must resort to abuse of power to supplement their income.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    6. Re:We need more by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If there were Americans to fill these spots, I wouldn't doubt that they'd be filled by Americans.
      In a free market, if demand increases while supply remains constant, than prices will rise. Yet we've seen near static wage levels in the computer industry since the end of the dot-bomb years. This empirical evidence shows that there are plenty of Americans available to fill these spots.

      If we can't fill our jobs with our own people, then there is something seriously wrong with our education system that needs to be addressed immediately. Basic economics indicates that opening the job market up to competition would be the fastest and most effective way to make this happen.
      No, there is nothing terribly wrong with our education system. It is the incentive system that has something seriously wrong with it. The guys going into college know that the job market for computer engineers sucks, so they've been studying other disciplines, enrollment in computer science courses is at record lows all across the country but general college enrollment is climbing.

      Make it an attractive career, not one where the suits take advantage of the geeks, and you'll see plenty of increased interest. But if the industry continues to undercut its current people, they will eventually find themselves in a situation where they really do need tons of H1Bs for their talent and not for their effect on wages. Or they'll find that other countries need these guys more than the US does because we've lost our edge.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    7. Re:We need more by Realistic_Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The US certainly needs to do something.

      There is currently a 4 year+ queue for people over 21 with a US citizen parent to obtain a green card. If they get married during the wait they go to the back of an EIGHT year queue.

      Oh, and their spouse dosen't get a visa when they do, there is another 5 year wait on top of that. If they chose to apply as the spouse as an LPR (instead of waiting for citizenship) then during the 5 year wait their spouse can't even enter the US.

      This is true even for citizens of affluent countries with technical degrees and well paying jobs who would, but for ITAR and the difficulty of the H1B process, be happy to move them to the US.

      Because of this I have been unable to get married despite being engaged for over a year, and once we do manage to get married we won't be able to live together for at least five years.

      The US system is at present seriously broken.

      --
      Beep beep.
  4. Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles by illegalcortex · · Score: 2, Informative

    You actually submitted a headline where the moron spelled it batchelor
    Which moron? Isn't this a submission created by kdawson? I don't see any "So and so writes" in front of the article text. This would imply there was no second moron involved.
  5. Open offices in Canada! by cperciva · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's a simple solution to the H-1B visa problem: Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa. Vancouver in the same time zone as Silicon Valley, only a 2 hour flight away, and has a lower cost of living than any large city on the US west coast. Add to that two great universities, a moderate climate, and some of the best skiing in the world, in addition to all the usual amenities of a large city, and it's no surprise that Vancouver is routinely rated as one of the best places to live in the world. What are all you guys waiting for?

    (This post brought to you by I-want-a-job-and-don't-want-to-move-to-California. )

    --
    Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
    1. Re:Open offices in Canada! by cperciva · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa."

      Guaranteed a visa "maybe", but not a job related to their profession. Like many others in Canada, I've had my share of chats with PhDs driving cabs.


      If you have a job offer related to your profession, then you are indeed guaranteed a job related to your profession. If you come to Canada on the basis of a job offer for a job which you don't want, well, you get what you deserve.

      There are absolutely highly skilled immigrants who are not able to get jobs which utilize their skills; but they are generally those who entered Canada as refugees or were sponsored by family members, not those who entered the country with a job offer.
      --
      Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
    2. Re:Open offices in Canada! by Paulrothrock · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are tech companies all over the place. I live in Lancaster, PA and I work for Mapquest.

      You don't have to live in a place where 1200 square foot houses cost $500,000 to get a great job with a company somebody's heard of.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  6. Re:US? by eln · · Score: 2, Informative

    My company has a fairly large presence in India. Recently, one of our India employees came to the US for a few weeks to work with us. He mentioned that working in India, he could expect to work for 10 years before he could afford to buy a house. However, if he were to work in the US, he could afford a home in India after only 2 years of work. If I were an Indian, I would want to work in the US too.

  7. Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles by Jose · · Score: 2, Informative

    kdawson does seem pretty lazy, leaving out the "dept" section a lot, posting *obviously* wrong and misleading summaries of stories, and not bothering to update the story..just seems lazy.

    --
    The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
  8. Re:US? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who would want to work in the US anyway? Better off heading to Europe. Not really. It is much easier to live in the US. For one thing, as an immigrant myself, and inspite of the constant rants about racism I've heard, I have found that as long as you avoid some of the more obvious states (the Bible belt comes to mind), racism and bigotry are rare in the US. I know for a fact that Germany is NOT a place where non-westerners would be as welcome as in ANY place in the US. Same goes for the Scandinavian countries where political parties gain power based on the single issue of keeping foreigners out. Aside from England, I don't know of any European country that is remotely as attractive as the US for a potential immigrant (and England is a rather ghetto version of the US at this point in history). France is a bit of a joke frankly (as far as immigration by non-westerners is concerned, they're as cosmopolitan as hilbillies :P).

    No, I think it's safe to say that the US always has been and always will be the place where people immigrate to. Unless of course the people here develop the disease of meaningless nationalistic jingoism like the rest of the banana republics in the world. Oh wait...

  9. Re:US? by edwardpickman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apparently most of the world wants to work here since large numbers apply for work and come here illegally. I've had a lot of friends who are English, Dutch, French, ETC. Most of them complain about the US and talk about how much better it is in their home country. Funny they still live and work here so it doesn't help their argument. It's hardly perfect but there must be some pluses since so many fight hard to get and stay here. I have an Australian friend that decided to go back. He stuck it out for 9 months and mostly stayed that long because it took him that long to earn the money to come back. He found he could earn nearly twice as much here for the same job and he had access to more things here. He still likes to boast of Australia but I haven't heard him talk about moving back since his trip back. It's not knocking other countries, I love Europe personally, it's like voting with your dollars in a sense. If it's so awful here why do you want to live here and a hell of a lot of people do want to live here.

  10. The DHS says these numbers are too low by btarval · · Score: 3, Informative
    This H1-B Visa issue limit is pretty much of a scam. Cisco for one uses tons of L1-B's from Wipro to by-pass this restriction regularly. I imagine that others do too.

    Add to this the fact that there's really no effective enforcement going on, this "limit filled in one day" just reeks of political fodder to push for more Visas.

    Surprisingly, there are indeed some actual real numbers published on the number of H1-B admissions into the U.S., from the Department of Homeland Security. These numbers appear to confirm that there are a lot more H1-B's entering the country than the Visa limit would suggest.

    The DHS document (The 2005 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics) is at: http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/year book/2005/OIS_2005_Yearbook.pdf

    I'm quoting the following from a discussion on dice.com at: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=49 2&tstart=15

    "Temporary workers and Trainees:" Specialty Occupations(H-1B):

    YEAR - H-1B visas Admitted
    1996 - 144,458
    1997 - 240,947
    1998 - 302,421
    1999 - 355,065
    2001 - 384,191
    2002 - 370,490
    2003 - 360,498
    2004 - 386,821

    There are a number of other excellent quotes on the above thread on Dice. It's well worth reading.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
    1. Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low by TeckWrek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The answer you are looking for is in the DHS document that you linked to. The table 26 on page 64 (where you picked the yearly number from) specifies in the header 'Non Immigrant Admissions (I-94 only)....'. The H1B visa has a maximum validity of 6 years. New visas are issued every year, but the ones issued in previous years (up till last 6) are still valid. All those people can go in and out of the country. Each time they do so, they are issued a new I-94. As a keen eye and some basic analysis will prove to you, the numbers increase every year, as they are cumulative for the last 6. Nothing more sinister here than the lack of understanding of the numbers. You know.. lies, damn lies and statistics.

    2. Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low by btarval · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The point remains that people are being mislead by the common suggestion that there's a limit of 65,000 H1-B's in the U.S.. Indeed, you mentioned some of the loopholes used to by-pass it. And there are many other loopholes, such as the L1-B's, which adds even more.

      These numbers are staggering; and it's no wonder why new C.S. students find it discouraging to enter the field in the U.S..

      It's also interesting that the last number available in the DHS publication is also strikingly close to the number of 400,000 that Bill Gates was pushing for recently (after his original proposal of limiting the restrictions).

      --
      The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
  11. Re:65000 is far too many visas by Jahz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The requirement for a degree in any CS profession is artificial. My degree is in Chemistry, and yet I work as a software engineer.
    My job isn't especially hard, and certainly two trained monkeys could do it. And I'm sure that if I practiced enough and studied enough text books, I could work as a crappy chemist too. What's your point? A CS degree requirement is not artificial. There is a good deal of non-trivial theory that a degree holder is expected to have a good handle on. Sure, its possible to script and write moderately complex programs without take Theory of Computation, Algorithms, OO Design, Programming languages, etc. Perhaps you don't need a grasp of graph theory or an understanding of why P=NP is important. However, when you get into anything sufficiently complicated, I believe a well-trained CS major will have a very strong advantage over you. But then again you're admittedly doing work that "a monkey" could do (boring), so it isn't anything a respected programmer would want to touch.

    In all the jobs I have had, I learned new skills, languages and methodologies. That is one of the benefits of working in a leading-edge field. Of course its possible to jump right in learn "how to program", but I contest that doing so will result in a shaky foundation, at best. My education continues at work, it didn't start there. If you find the *right employer*, most of your work will be challenging, and occasionally rewarding. I'm sorry that you chose the wrong major for yourself.
    --
    There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
  12. Way out.. by univgeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pick the H1B candidates according to salary. The people with the highest salaries get H1Bs first. The market will ensure that H1B's go to the candidates most in demand. Spread the cap over every month, with a backlog. This way, companies know the minimum that has to be paid as salary to get a H1B employee.

    Also IMO, a lot of this demand is drive by the Indian IT companies - TCS, Infy, Wipro, etc. They have HR teams who apply for as many of their employees as might be required to go onsite in the next year. And since a normal company can't usually afford to apply for, and hire, a person 5 months ahead of his possible entry into the US, the Indian IT companies are making hay.

    There are also students who are on their OPT who can apply for a H1B and work on their OPT until they get their H1Bs. These two'd probably be the biggest sets of applicants.

    This leaves a lot of companies in the US which might like to bring someone in on a H1 in an impossible situation.

    I'm an Indian, in India, and not going for a H1 any time soon. But I've seen a lot of my friends having problems because of H1. And the visa situation and general atmosphere after 9/11 was partially what made me come back after my MS.

    --
    All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
  13. Re:US? by liuyunn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    well good for him
    Folks here in the midwest still take 30 years to pay off their mortgage. Maybe we should start thinking about moving to India.

  14. Re:So this has become another green card lottery? by TeckWrek · · Score: 5, Informative

    As an H1B holding Indian working in the US, I can tell you for a fact that the assertion you make (really your lawyer) is completely and utterly false. The cap applies to the entire world. There are other visa types that you can come to the US under, but if its the H1B you are interested in, the cap applies.

    If your lawyer doesn't know this or is feeding you misinformation for whatever reason, you should look into taking your business elsewhere.

  15. Re:US? by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who would want to work in the US anyway? Better off heading to Europe.

    Europeans don't tolerate threats to their career the same way Americans seem to, and cap the visas lower. Europeans take labor unions seriously, while Americans shun them. Unions have a bad rap in the US because they've gotten carried away and created silly rules that companies have to follow. It may take a generation or two before the stigma wears off and/or unions don't keep making the same mistakes.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  16. Re:So this has become another green card lottery? by locus_standi · · Score: 2, Informative

    I know for a fact that the cap _does_ apply to Indians and Chinese. Your lawyer is either incompetent or he is misleading you for whatever reason.

  17. Re:US? by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 4, Informative

    Scotland - we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world. There's a hell of a lot less racism here than in England (as far as you can tell by the news anyway) and there's a lot of open space for people to enjoy if they're looking for that sort of thing.

  18. Give us your... by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Funny

    Give us your rich, your lucky, your highly educated masses longing to be exploited...

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    1. Re:Give us your... by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hmm, maybe the selection of immigrants by lottery will make American an increasingly lucky country, just like Larry Niven's tongue-in-cheek hypothesis in Ringworld that through a birthright lottery evolution would select for luck and eventually human beings wouldn't have to fear any accident.

  19. Re:US? by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 4, Interesting
    "we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world"

    Unless you're English. Try moving to Scotland at the age of ten from England. It's funny how a much crap the Scottish can dish out because they're indoctrinated at an early age by their parents that anyone/thing from England must be the devil in disguise and out to beat the Scotsman while they're down. At 23 I left and came to the US.

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
  20. Re:US? by RKBA · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If by "your 'own' home" you mean the bank's home, then I would agree; however, even after the mortgage is paid off it still isn't your own home. It belongs to the county and you must pay a yearly rental fee to the county for the rest of your life or they will repossess it. The county calls the rental fee "property taxes" and they can be quite high in some areas. I wonder if they have that in India?

    --
    9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
  21. Re:US? by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Here in Dundee we have a lot of people or chinese and asian origin, lots of them are born and bred here in Scotland with parents or grandparents who emigrated to Scotland. In the shop I work in we get non-whites in every day, and Glasgow for instance has a huge asian population.

    Indeed. One of the most surreal experiences in my recent trip through the UK was hearing an old Asian lady - not a day under 80, I'm sure - start talking in one of the thickest Scottish accents I've ever heard (the type where all you can answer with is "what ?").

    This wasn't in Glasgow though. Edinburgh, I think it was.

  22. Re:US? by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 3, Funny

    Come to Dundee sometime, the locals can't say the "aye" sound. Which, in Scotland, is a bit strange anyway but for them it comes out as a flat "eh", with no raised pitch at the end that might indicate "eh?". So they say "peh" for "pie", "fev" for "five", and - amusingly - "Dundeh" for "Dundee".

    All leading to the hilarious phrase "Eh went to Dundeh fer a peh but eh fell and meh peh went skeh heh."

    I love my country.

  23. Re:US? by narf501 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Wrong. The US Supreme Court made a decision that anyone's property can be condemned and be made part of a private business at anytime.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_L ondon

    This case shows that a county can take property from one landowner and give/sell to another landowner at will. You live in the property you "own" only at the whim of the county and state.

  24. Re:US? by Alioth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I went to the US to live for several years. I enjoyed it very much, and wouldn't change it for the world.

    However, I'm extremely glad that I'm back home now. When I hit my late 20s, I realised that there were things that were a lot more valuable to me than the money I could earn in the US or the stuff I could buy cheaply in the US.

    The US isn't awful at all, I go back and visit my friends in Houston at least once a year. But I'm so glad I moved back home. Perhaps some time in the future I'll get the urge to live abroad again, but next time I will choose a different country. Not out of dislike of the US (which I will continue to visit) but just because I've been there, and I'd want to go somewhere new.

    --
    Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
  25. Re:US? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Very true. I am an Indian American and if any immigrant group into India becomes as successful in India as Indians have been in USA, there will be riots in the streets.

    Just look at the hostility shown to the South Indians (disparagingly refrred to as the Madrasees) by the people of Delhi. Or the "sons of the soil" policies advocated by Shiv Sena in Bombay which is just thinly veiled antogonism shown to the educated South Indians getting plum jobs there. Not that the South Indians are paragons of virtue. My own native place lumps all North Indians as "marwadis", though Marwar is just one district in Rajasthan. Most North Indian are businessmen but political parties paint them to be money lending Shylocks.

    I will say it once more, Indian Americans household median income is around 60K$, compared to some 52K for the Whites, 45K for the blacks and 42K for the hispanics. If this happened in India, the succesful group would have been hounded mercilessly and demonized for political purposes.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  26. Re:US? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's called eminent domain.

  27. Re:US? by terjeber · · Score: 2, Informative

    Doesn't matter how long you've lived in Europe - What you're spreading is FUD.

    FUD? Do you even know what FUD is? No, I am no spreading "FUD", but some may say I spread lies about Europe. I do not. I was born and raised in Norway. I have worked in several European countries, and I have been gainfully employed in the US for a good few years now. As opposed to most Europeans (and Americans for that matter), I have experience enough to know what I am talking about.

    The high unemployment rates amongst immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with the government

    It doesn't? Please educate me. How can it be that when a major news organization followed two groups of Somali immigrants, one settled in Europe (Germany) and one in Phoenix AZ, after one year out of Somalia, every family in the Phoenix group had at least one full-time employed member, while the group in Germany had zero employed people, full or part time. Did the US get all the "good" Somalis and Germany all the lazy shits? Unlikely. The Germans got the same Somalis, but they hadn't been able to get them work permits yet, in fact 6 months later (18 months after landing in Germany), most of them still were not allowed to work. At that stage they were all happy enough on the dole, and well on their way to doing what so many immigrants do in Europe, generate generation upon generation of unemployed children.

    Why do people find work in the US? Well, because when you immigrate to the US, you work or you starve. Simple enough. You no work - you no eat.

    A lot of them don't even bother learning the language through -free- courses offered by the government. ... Simply because they don't want to.

    Who cares? You don't speak the language -> you don't work. You don't work -> you and your kids starve. Simple. They'll learn. Don't put them om welfare. Remember: "Nød lærer nøgen kvinde at spinde". Wise words. In an effort to be "nice" to the immigrants, those words are forgotten and the "nice" becomes a behavior that hurts both the immigrant and the host country.

    I despise the fact that people bitch and moan about the government of my country being harsh on immigration, but Denmark *is* a welfare state.

    Welfare for people who get into trouble in their life is good. Once they have earned it. Stepping onto Danish ground doesn't make you deserve it. The fact that the European governments not only allow, but actively encourages their immigrant population to stay on the dole is the reason Europe has an immigration problem. Well, a major reason. The second reason is that Europe in general has a no immigration policy. Europe doesn't accept any immigrants in fact, only refugees, political refugees in general. Bad idea. Stop accepting them. They don't really exist. There are perhaps 100 real political refugees in the world, the rest of the refugees are convenience refugees. Don't accept them. If someone comes to Denmark and claims political asylum, check the person against a list of known persecuted political active figures in his country (usually less than 10). If he's not on the list, put him on the next plane back to his country. If he doesn't have papers, put him on a plane back to the country his flight came in from.

    Immigrants are generally good for the country. Let them in. Let them bring their family. Let them work from the day they set foot on Danish soil. If they do not have a job within 6 weeks of arriving, ship them back out. Any immigrant accepted into Denmark should be required to have an open-ended return ticket. If he can't prove that he can support him self within 6 weeks, make him use the return ticket.

    Denmark had a long history of being a friendly and tolerant nation for many decades in the past, but since the mid 90s, things have really gone downhill. Not because of the Danish government

  28. Re:US? by JavaLord · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You really think all taxes are bad

    No, just most of them.

    and all govt is bad?

    The bigger it is, the worse it is.

    Or are you whoring to get mod points? Learn these basic things about civics. Govt, by its mere, presence adds value to your property. The general law and order, enforcement of contracts, truth-in-labeling laws, truth-in-lending laws etc foster the climate the create value

    These things are good, but property tax and state tax is what leads to these. You can lobby for change when it comes to those, or just move if it is that bad. Want to debate the fairness of federal taxation? Want to talk about the $25 million dollars that is being earmarked for spiniach growers in the upcoming federal budget?

    Just think, how valuable your home will be if it is wrenched out of USA and plunked smack-dab-in-the-middle of Darfar, Sudan. The property tax there is probably 0. So before you mouth off, "govt is bad and zero tax is the fair tax" just remember that it just shows how shallow your comprehension of the world is.

    Just because someone doesn't have the same views as yours on taxation and government doesn't mean their comprehension of the world is 'shallow'.

  29. Re:US? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Informative
    There is govt waste and inefficiency. But the original poster was not making a case for eradicating inefficiency. (S)he was saying things like, "you dont own property in USA because you are obliged to pay taxes which is same as not owning anything but paying rent".

    The taxes you pay protect your property directly by the police force. The local govt maintains the proof that you own the property. It maintains the infrasturcture that allows you to ward off intruders and usurpers without having to resort to violent means. If you own some land in Sudan or Angola you will realize how much of a benefit it is to just live in your home without having worry if a local warlord will evict you and take over your property.

    What is the value of your property? It is largely the amount someone would be willing to pay for it. And laws like truth-in-lending, fairness clauses and the thriving economy increases the buying power of people that directly enhances the value of your property.

    Considering it all, see if the amount taxed from you for your property is less than the value created to you by the Government. If the tax is less than the value created by the Govt, shut up and pay it. Dont make snide comments like "paying property tax means I dont own it and I am only renting it." Making such a statement shows the shallow grasp of economics and civics.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  30. Four kinds of visas - H1-B only one of them by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ones that matter to geeks are the L-1 and L-2 visas for professors and grad students from overseas - H1-B is just an artificial way to avoid talking about the need for a real immigration reform where people with skills - like fluency in English, ability to be understood in English, knowledge of American non-metric measurements, and skills our country can use - would lead to people becoming citizens.

    The fourth type are NAFTA and CAFTA visas for Mexican/Canadian and Canadian workers here, who have a separate category.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  31. The real appeal of H1B by loudici · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is one part of the H1B program i have not seen mentioned which I think explains why the industry likes them so much. H1B workers are pretty tightly linked to their job and won't quit, because they would jeopardize their visa, and later their Green Card application process. I have seen a lot of H1Bs working for years maintaining crappy legacy code while they were waiting for their visa number. Americans on that team would ask to be transfered to another project or quit.

    The other hidden face of that program is that a lot of H1B workers are employed by staffing companies who are taking advantage of them ruthlessly.

    --
    Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros http://euclidian.org
  32. Re:US? by HungWeiLo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If this happened in India, the succesful group would have been hounded mercilessly and demonized for political purposes.

    That's only because there are relatively few Indians in the US. I'm guessing around 50% of Americans have never actually interacted with or even seen an Indian. (Besides, they'd think "smoke signals" Indian, not "dot-on-the-forehead" Indian - sorry). Just like the successful Jews were hounded in Europe 60 years ago, the early Chinese immigrants (who were starting to do well as they starting enterprising into other ventures other than getting themselves whipped or blown up while building railroad tracks out West) were targeted by the Chinese Exclusion Act and had all their assets taken away and kicked out of the U.S. 1 in 8 Koreans are entrepreneurs in their home country, and most of these people have migrated to the U.S. in recent years. It's not too much of a stretch for some hypothetical hate-baiter politician to use Koreans as a convenient statistic for their own gains.

    Because of the relative recent prosperity of the U.S., there have been very few conflicts arising from jealousy of groups of foreigners perceived to be "doing better." But off the top of my head, as recently as the 80s, people like Vincent Chin have been murdered for being perceived to take jobs away from the "natives" when times do get bad in the U.S. Or witness the fervor surrounding the debate on Affirmative Action in the last 10-15 years, where an insignificant 1-5% of positions slated for minorities are bitterly fought and debated over and you can see how nasty things can get.

    --
    There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
  33. Immigration Nightmare! by RexRhino · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Remember the nightmare, back before the U.S. restricted immigration!?!?!

    We had the scurge of people like Einstien, and John von Neumann! We had the evil of people like Enrico Fermi, and Nicoli Tesla, and Alexander Graham Bell, stealing up all those jobs that should have gone to hard working Americans! And it is about time we kick that evil job-stealing bastard Linus Torvalds from this great U.S. of A. to whatever Scandinavian hell-hole he is from!!!

    Think how much more advanced and successful the U.S. economy would be if it wasn't for these people ruining everything!