Annual H-1B Visa Cap Met In One Day

CNet is reporting that the door has closed on the H1-B visa application process for this year, one day after it began. The US Citizenship and Immigration Services said that it had received 150,000 applications as of yesterday afternoon. 65,000 H1-B visas can be issued for foreigners with bachelor's degrees. The USCIS will choose randomly from the applications to determine the winners.

Comments

Shouldn't be a lottery.

[jcr]

Those spots should be auctioned off. The more an employer is paying for an H1-B visa, the more highly-skilled the worker in question is likely to be. IOW, we really will be getting those people with skills we can't find here.

-jcr

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Chandon Seldon]

That sounds like a good idea, as long as you ignore the feedback effect of any government auctions. I'm not sure that making H1B visas a revenue source is really conducive to fair policy decisions in the future.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[StikyPad]

That's a classic catch-22, since first we'd need people with the skills to implement such an idea.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Seumas]

Uh. Obviously the employer wishing to displace the American worker with an H1-B would be paying for it. Not the H1-B.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[khallow]

They already are a revenue source. Just not for the federal government.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[jcr]

That would depend on whether the revenue went to the agency that decided how many visas to allow. There would be several factors at play, including corporate pressure on congress to increase the number of visas (as we have now), and also to restrict the number of visas (with the usual xenophobic arguments).

-jcr

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[jcr]

Piece of cake: just outsource the app to implement it to InfoSys in Bangalore.

-jcr

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lord Kano]

Brilliant.

This would really prove that they can't get enough qualified applicants from within the country.

As we all know, H1Bs are only about depressing wages.

LK

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lewisham]

You aren't wrong, but getting the H1-B is difficult enough already. The company has to want you really bad to burn up an application, without a guarantee of success, that only happens once a year, and if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position. For the applicant it's all those things plus convincing the company you're worth it and probably having to fly there to see said company in person.

I don't see what else this would achieve without just being a way of gouging money, and further screwing job-seekers who actually want to pay taxes, contribute to the economy and the growth of American companies. I don't subscribe to the idea that skilled workers take American jobs, I believe they help companies grow and generate more jobs in the long-term.

I think that IT is indeed a global economy, and if America is not willing to take on the view that companies can benefit from cherry-picking out of an international workforce, someone else, like Canada or Sweden, will, and companies there will grow.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am a bitter UK citizen with a Masters degree that can't get a visa to live with his Californian girlfriend that I met during my year of study in the USA. We had to come to New Zealand for us both to continue being together without getting married.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[sethawoolley]

Yeah, we could setup a stage and then auction off the people with the highest skills.

I'll be just like south of the mason-dixon line before the war.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[kevin lyda]

Never been to NZ, but from what I've seen/heard it sounds like you got a better deal.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[ddoctor]

Auctioning visas doesn't work because people being paid large salaries are not necessarily more skilled or more valuable to the economy.

It's a similar argument as higher education - higher education should be accessible for those academically qualified, not those economically affluent.

--
A doctor of philosophy stocks boxes of rock prophecies to block the toxins properly

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Yez70]

Actually these spots need to be increased.

250,000 seems like a better number, especially if we allocated about half of them to medical fields - a field the US is sorely in need of more skilled people.

Considering millions of unwanted people come in illegally, why not increase the number of legal and desired immigrants? Instead our idiotic system keeps the skilled immigrants we want and desire out, yet lets the illegals who burden the system walk across the border without fear of repercussion.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Rakishi]

Graduate school is, if you're really good you may not even have to TA/RA (ie: get a non-department fellowship). Undergrad varies, good universities are essentially no longer a question of money (free ride up to family income of $40+k now I think). If you're willing to actually work at it and take massive loans then they're not much of a question no matter where you go. Admissions are the real problem, not directly but indirectly (ie: better middle/high schools, better resources for filling out college apps, better access to extracurriculars, etc.). So yes, it's perfectly accessible to anyone except that like everything else in life its not as easy for everyone. Also, many other nations have free education period for those who qualify academically. This does however assume your family isn't so poor as to require you to work since you're 16 (or 10 in other countries I guess) to not starve.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[James_Aguilar]

Same situation, opposite side. I'm the American. My girlfriend was lucky enough to get an H1-B early on in the process last year. I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties. It is no fun being the American in this equation either. Best of luck.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[iamacat]

Not thinking about marriage, even a sham one if you guys are not ready to commit otherwise? Would solve visa problems and she can get citizenship after 3 years.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[iamacat]

medical fields - a field the US is sorely in need of more skilled people.

Nope, there are plenty of skilled people. We just need to stop suing them so much and torturing them with inhuman work hours.

yet lets the illegals who burden the system walk across the border without fear of repercussion.

Those would be the ones who ensure you never have to worry about affording basic groceries in Safeway.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[ynohoo]

some people take marriage vows more seriously than the divorce rate would suggest.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[drsmithy]

We just need to stop suing them so much and torturing them with inhuman work hours.

If the hours are "inhuman", then pretty much by definition there aren't enough of them.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[jcr]

Instituting such a plan would only enable these sorts of individuals to purchase their way into America.

You didn't read what I wrote. I was referring to auctioning the spots to employers, not to applicants.

-jcr

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Ihlosi]

You didn't read what I wrote. I was referring to auctioning the spots to employers, not to applicants.

That doesn't make a difference. As a possible rich-but-undesirable applicant, just find a prospective employer and offer to pay them for hiring you.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Malggi]

...and if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position.

Unfortunately, you remember wrong. The Economic Policy Institute has a great article on this that should probably be submitted to the main page. You can find the article here: http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html

To quote the linked article:

The most significant design flaw is the absence of a labor market test. The U.S. Department of Labor recently expressed the practical implications of this fact in a straightforward manner when it stated that "H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker." Simply put, an employer does not have to test the labor market before hiring a foreign worker on an H-1B.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Ihlosi]

if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position.

Such proofs, if they are necessary at all, are fairly easy to get. Just tailor the job description to the exact qualifications of the prospective applicant.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[galego]

Safeway?!?!?! Way too expensive ... I buy at Juan's Discount Mercado :p

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[MindStalker]

I remember when we hired an H1B here at work. Initially the person was working here because we are connected with a University and they were a student. When they graduated and their student visa was expiring we wanted to keep them on so we applied for an H1B. I bet they weren't the "most" qualified, but they already were working the job so it was the most logical.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[cluckshot]

I personally think it should be bid out and not a lottery. We sell access to airwaves in this way, why not this?

To be quite frank the whole issue is a trade war the USA is running against its own citizens and the tax evasion of certain employers in that trade war. Its really quite simple: The USA taxes away (state local and federal) about 65% of the income of its workers. The foreign workers come into the country without the embedded tax cost of about $300,000 (varies on the degree) of tax exempt investment due to the parties not having paid US Taxes. I know there are parties who will discuss VAT in EU etc. (Blecch! It doesn't compare because of US Debt for Education systems) The USA wants its people to pay lots of taxes and then floods the market with either tax exempt goods and services or with tax evasion devices like "Illegal Aliens" and H-1B etc. They even set up a mechanism called "Totalization" where parties work in the USA without even paying the US Taxes at all and without audit in their own countries to evaluate even the compliance with the small local taxes.

I am sure I will hear from some people who don't understand this but this is the whole issue. A US BS graduate has an investment of about $300,000 of Tax Cost before they graduate. This has to be repaid. This requires the party to earn about $3,000 a month in income just to justify the expense. That is about $3,000/month more than their foreign competition. Of course any employer who can get an H-1B L-1 or other visa party in the country and does not have to repay this money is thrilled. This is in wages to the employee the difference between having to earn about $95,000 a year and doing well on about $40,000 a year. (approx - skip the math games) Of course an employer being able to get equal parties at that wage difference is thrilled. Try this with an MD and we are talking living well on $100,000/yr as alien and starving on $500,000 a year as a US MD as US Grad. Of course the Hospital or where ever still gets the payments that support the $500,000 a year but the MD doesn't. This causes the CEO of the Hospital a lot of income for every H-1B he can get!

Regards the parent post's remark about living together and visas...., Try having a marriage.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Bobzibub]

Perhaps the US should simply fix its own education system?
Surely access to education is a greater problem for middle class Americans than foreigners not having to pay US ridiculous tuition rates.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[saider]

Much opposition to H1-B is not xenophobic. In fact, it is quite the opposite. We would rather see people be given full residency so that they are not beholden to a sponsor to remain in the country. With residency, they can ask for fair wages for where they are located instead of negotiating salary from across an ocean. Also, with residency we would actually keep many workers instead of shipping them back when their visas or extensions expire.

H1-B is a way for business to gain a little extra leverage over their employees. The talent is here, companies just do not want to pay to relocate domestic labor. Importing one person from India is much less expensive than relocating a family from California.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[bealzabobs_youruncle]

"have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position"

Having been attached to I.T. based Human Resources I can guaruntee you that this question does not get asked and all related policies are pretty much ignored.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[BVis]

OK, you need to explain your concept of "tax cost". Are you saying that the taxes that both I and my employer pay are "losses" that must be "made up" in order to be fair? If that were the case, it would seem that you're putting that in the same light as, for example, education loans or mortgages. If you're meaning something different, I think the community might benefit from a citation or two fleshing out your point of view. (I think I've been reading too much Wikipedia discussion.) Personally, I look at my taxes as paying for services that benefit society (as inefficient and wasteful as they may be sometimes.) I personally like having an FBI, an FDA, a national military, and so forth.

Your figure of 65% seems suspect to me. A quick glance at my last pay stub says that even when you consider both my and my employer's contribution to Social Security, the deductions (state and federal taxes, social security, and Medicare) are less than 30% of my income. Where does the other 35% come from? Even figuring in property taxes (in my case, less than 5% of my income alone, and we're a dual-income household) your number seems high.

IMHO the reasons that H1-B workers are so popular with US employers are more complicated than simply the financial considerations. Outside of the tax advantages (whatever they might be), it's easier to exploit H1-B workers. Specifically, you can pay them less and make them do more work than their native American counterparts, because they have the threat of deportation if they quit for being treated unfairly. Companies will always treat an employee as badly as they can get away with in terms of salary, benefits, and corporate culture, and H1-B visa holders are at a disadvantage. I know that the rules say they're required to pay an H1-B visa holder the same as they pay a US citizen, but honestly, how well is that enforced (or, more to the point, how enforceable is it?) An H1-B worker who finds out his/her US citizen co-workers are getting paid significantly more than he/she is has little recourse. Sure, they can file a complaint with the appropriate agency, but that's a sure way to find yourself laid off and on a plane back to your native country before you can follow up.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[ashwinds]

That reminded me of Gladiator where slaves were bought and peddled as glorified warriors. H1B employee finds a new job in the US "Boss I quit" H1B employer "Do you know how much I paid for you"?

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[ashwinds]

Marital Status? Bachelor Hmm, he says he has a masters - but is still a bachelor. No Visa for you liars.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[towsonu2003]

Those spots should be auctioned off. ... we really will be getting those people with skills we can't find here.

Wow, you actually are serious(ly imbecile).

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[kabocox]

Those spots should be auctioned off. The more an employer is paying for an H1-B visa, the more highly-skilled the worker in question is likely to be. IOW, we really will be getting those people with skills we can't find here.

Auction them off both ways! Only the companies that pay the most, and the employees that pay the most get to enter to do business in the country. This is even one that I wouldn't have any gripes if other countries applied to us just make an auction only the highest paying companies and employees can enter your country.

This would effectively force the relative poor to stay in their home country and the richer segments of the population could go anywhere on the globe that they want.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[JavaLord]

Those would be the ones who ensure you never have to worry about affording basic groceries in Safeway.

There is no industry in the US that is dominated by illegal workers, not even fruit farm workers.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Skapare]

I don't subscribe to the idea that skilled workers take American jobs, I believe they help companies grow and generate more jobs in the long-term.

To the extend that companies genuinely hire people for the skills that truly are not available domestically, I fully support the H-1B program. And I personally know some people who fit that definition (where unavailable can mean extremely hard to find or people unwilling to move to a less popular part of the USA). But I also know many companies just blindly seek people who they know will accept less than median pay, are willing to put in extra hours and work an extra day or two per week, and won't hop off to a better paying job in a couple years.

Skilled workers do take American jobs in the cases (that do exist) where there is an American worker who has the same skills and can do that job, but can't get it because he wants a pay level above his mortgage payments. At least H-1B does generally have pay levels at some significant percentage of the median (and in some companies, they are well paid). The problem is there are companies abusing the system, which itself is fundamentally broken with loopholes that let them do this legally.

FYI, you might actually be able to get your visa if this kind of abuse was not taking place.

One fundamental problem is the international economy is not a level playing field. People living in India can make a fraction of what is made in the USA, when figured on the exchange rate, yet be living in luxury in India, even by American standards. Aside from a few concentrated places in and around the booming tech centers, the cost of living in India is very low compared to the USA. Fix things to make the playing field level and the problem goes away. Of course the corporations would never let their Congressmen (American term for MP) do that.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[drinkypoo]

I bet they weren't the "most" qualified, but they already were working the job so it was the most logical.

It's not the most logical, but the most convenient. Raising unemployment is bad for the entire nation. You took the easy easy way out because it was convenient for you. Your excuses impress no one.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Gaijin42]

Americans deserving jobs in America more than people not from America? Obviously a racist point of view...

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Ihlosi]

Americans deserving jobs in America more than people not from America? Obviously a racist point of view...

Since when has "American" become a race ? You're confusing racism and nationalism here.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[GPS Dude]

I've been watching developments in the H1B area for the last few months. I have a very vested interest, as I am one of the 150,000 applicants with an application at USCIS. I wanted to share some of my story to show how this potentially affects us and others.

My wife and I both came to the US from New Zealand in 2005 on independent work visas. My wife has a PhD in Neuroscience and works as a post doctoral researcher at Columbia University. Her work involves research towards finding a cure for Parkinson's disease and other neuro-degenerative disorders. I have masters of engineering degree in artificial intelligence and work as the senior software architect for a $500M/yr global corporation that manufactures GPS navigation systems for cars. I have been in this company for seven years both in the US and New Zealand and built much of the global technology team that exists today. I have personally employed people from all over the world, including the US. Diversity in our team is a great strength.

Together my wife and I earn about $160,000 per year which is more then the prevailing wage in our respective jobs. Last year in 2006 we moved the majority of our capital to the US and purchased an apartment in New York. As you may know apartment prices in New York are not insignificant.

I am presently on an L1B specialist knowledge visa, and my wife is on an H1B. Why separate visas? Because this provides some robustness; if something should go wrong we can be together in the US with at least one of us working. I say "at least one" because the fact that you are married does not necessarily mean you can work in the US because your husband or wife is working. Whether you can depends on the subtleties of the different visa categories.

All is not well however; the company that I work for (and effectively started) is being sold, and because I am here on L1B that affects my visa status. In the sale the assets of the company are being transferred and the purchasing company is assuming the immigration liabilities of my current employer. So hopefully since this is happening globally the visa can be simply amended with the name of the purchasing company. However, this is not guaranteed, and to give me a range of future options, the purchasing company is also applying for an H1B visa at the same time. Like the L1B there is no guarantee that this will be approved, especially since this category was oversubscribed on the first day applications for the 2008 fiscal year were received. The entire process is costing around $10,000 with no guarantee of success. It is a very stressful time for people like me where my future path depends on what happens with all the paperwork.

Both my wife and I are highly educated, highly skilled, individuals of considerable means from a first world country. We are here because both ore very specialist careers depend on access to markets or facilities of a very particular type; a type that does not necessarily exist where we come from owing to differences in population size. We are also here because living and working in a slightly different culture affords us a different perspective on the world and enriches our cultural experience. So far I have to say it has been a great experience by and large.

I'd just like to remind readers not to tar all immigrants with the same brush. There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration, there is a difference between skilled and unskilled workers, and there are many reasons why people come to the US. We will play by the rules although the processes and systems in place do not necessarily make this pleasant or easy. We believe that a system based on individual merit rather than generalization would be fair and reasonable. We hope that our contribution to US society is valued and that we can continue to make it.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Shotgun]

The company has to want you really bad to burn up an application, without a guarantee of success, that only happens once a year, and if I remember right, have proof that an American applicant couldn't have filled the position. For the applicant it's all those things plus convincing the company you're worth it and probably having to fly there to see said company in person.

I'd like to respectfully disagree. I'm currently contracting with a globally known networking company, and I've been trying to get on full-time with the group I've been contracting for. I've been doing the job for a year, and the manager has no problem giving me extensions to continue my contract. There have been requisitions available, and I've interviewed for a full-time position. The results of the interview was a determination that I'm not qualified because I don't have a CCNA. I'm in a study group with 5 full-timers who don't have a CCNA. I don't have the skills necessary to maintain the routers, yet it is my job to maintain them on a daily basis, which I'm doing well enough to keep getting contracting extensions. I'm not upset, though. Obviously, this group is not doing work in RTP area of North Carolina that Americans are capable of doing. Over 60% of the engineers are from India.

I have noticed that the foreign workers seem happy to work many more hours than the locals. That seems to be something that escapes the H1-B visa safeguards.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[networkBoy]

There was a manager in my old company who would only hire H1B's when given the chance. If there wasn't an H1B available he would hire someone who was a citizen. Why? Because he was a sadistic asshole*, but an H1B can't complain, even to the cops, without fear of being immediately sent home and unable to get back in.

When I had a bad run-in with this manager he crucified my carrier, I went from being an outstanding employee 4 years in a row to being the bottom of the shit heap. This with an average increase in work output on my part. I learned just how many other managers he either had in his pocket, or had dirt on. I fought a good enough fight to get my review officially reversed, got a copy of my employee file, and left.

-nB

*Ex cop from the RSA who was part of the White minority rule, saw nothing wrong with it, and who repeatedly bragged about beating confessions out of people with a rubber hose deftly applied to the soles of the feet.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[JimBobJoe]

Simply put, an employer does not have to test the labor market before hiring a foreign worker on an H-1B.

It was eliminated for good reason however. Labor market tests are well-known to be a bureaucratic exercise of pointlessness--companies who sincerely attempt the labor market test end up falling prey to an outcome which is "ambiguous" and doesn't necessarily meet the immigration criteria. Companies who don't care about being sincere adjust their said requirements so that only one candidate in a million can fit it (which is of course recommended even to the honest companies to avoid the ambiguous result.)

It's really just stupid for everyone involved. Countries usually use the labor market test as a way of preventing most types of immigration.

The Economic Policy Institute has a great article on this that should probably be submitted to the main page.

Eh. It's an article written by a partisan think tank, and the more I analyze it, the more it hits me as BS. There are much more neutral and realiable sources of info on this rather complex topic. The connection between the fact that Wipro is a major Indian company that does outsourcing and the fact that they have requested the most H1Bs is specious at best. After all, Wipro has expanded dramatically outside of India, and as part of that expansion, they needed a large quantity of North American employees--hence, they were asking for lots of H1Bs. Wipro and Infosys don't need the US employees to outsource to India. They were simply starting new outsourcing facilities in the US.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[MindStalker]

No I was just relaying a story. I worked as a tech there, I didn't have management control. Geez your quick to place blame.

Either way a human is a human, I don't get the whole us versus them mentality of outsourcing or free trade etc.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[networkBoy]

As an American, with an American family, in California, I think you may have gotten the better deal.
How do you like NZ anyway? How's bandwith, wage to COLA (or wage to cola for that matter), etc. there?

I may be leaving my current employer and leaving the country is not an impossible option for me...
-nB

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[metlin]

I do not know if you know this already, but if you are engaged or married (to an American), it becomes a lot easier for you to come down here?

As an Indian engaged to an American girl, I can tell you that once you are engaged/married, the immigration paperwork becomes a lot easier. In my case, it's a little more complicated because my girlfriend is in the navy and has security clearance. So, if she married me, she'd be marrying a foreign national, so we both have to jump through hoops before we get married.

Fortunately, I came here as a student for my grad school and have been working here ever since on an H1B, so it's not been that big a deal in terms of my immigration status.

But I have heard stories similar to yours from a lot of friends. In your case, you were lucky that you could work it out. A lot of people aren't and it's unfortunate when people have to break up because of stupid immigration policies.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[drinkypoo]

No I was just relaying a story. I worked as a tech there, I didn't have management control. Geez your quick to place blame.

You said "we hired" - I took that to mean we the employer. I responded in like kind - I said "you", meaning you the employer.

Either way a human is a human, I don't get the whole us versus them mentality of outsourcing or free trade etc.

Well, it works like this: I live in the US of A. I would like to continue to maintain a certain standard of living that depends on having a certain level of income. Lots of people would like to live here because of the beautiful land and the great opportunity. Problem is that as they move here the land becomes less beautiful and the opportunities diminish due to an overabundance of those taking them.

I am not aware of any country that permits free immigration. If there are any they are in a very small minority even if they are themselves significant nations.

The simple fact is that these corporations became great by utilizing the ability and ingenuity of Americans and now they would like to abandon us. This is of course what we get by allowing corporations to exist - which is utterly unnecessary and is only a manner of preserving a society in as feudal a state as possible - you are effectively beholden to lords [of equity] who can banish you from their realm.

The law says that you may not get H1-Bs unless you cannot find Americans to do the job for a reason, and that reason is that unemployment is harmful to everyone. If I become unemployed because I can be replaced cheaply with an H1-B, which happens all the time but of course is not supposed to, and/or if I cannot find a job because the jobs are taken by H1-Bs, another thing which is not supposed to happen (ha ha) then you and everyone else pays for me to be a drain on society. Meanwhile we have taken an unemployed individual out of another country. So what we have done is made another country's situation better at the cost of our own.

While I do feel that we should be assisting the rest of the world in solving their problems, causing ourselves unnecessary problems is not the solution.

However, that isn't the reason we have the H1-B program, anyway. It is ostensibly to be used to fill positions that cannot be filled here because there are not enough people to do them. But in practice it is used almost exclusively to get engineers for a lower salary than Americans want to take. It's not used when there are not people to do a job - it's used when a business cannot attract people to do a job for them, because they refuse to pay a reasonable salary (based on the averages paid by other corporations.) But then they get the H1-Bs in, and now there really ARE less positions available for Americans, and the average wage for the position drops, so now all corporations with that position benefit because they can pay less for it.

The H1-B program is almost entirely a scheme to keep wages low in the face of inflation. The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation in over a decade, and neither have non-minimum-wage salaries.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[MindStalker]

Of course, all corporations should be fully prepared to pay local wages for whatever area they are in. Though H1B visa seem to get a lot of people annoyed when its less than 100K people. Not much. Now illegal immigration in the multi millions a year people turn their backs despite obvious harm to the legal manual labors. If there was a need for more manual labors than could be found I'm sure the government would create a program for it. And programs that force a high wage can be good, but there obviously isn't much policing of either issue.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[drinkypoo]

Now illegal immigration in the multi millions a year people turn their backs despite obvious harm to the legal manual labors. If there was a need for more manual labors than could be found I'm sure the government would create a program for it.

This is very true. The true costs of food production are hidden because of illegal immigration. Instead of paying for our food up front at the supermarket, we pay part up front and the rest by paying for health care for illegals, by paying for increases in crime due to illegal immigration (the mexican gang problem was imported from mexico, it didn't just spawn out of nowhere) and so on and so forth.

Basically if we didn't have illegal immigrants picking our food, you couldn't get a head of iceberg lettuce for fifty cents. It would cost three dollars (or something.) But our taxes would go down. I'm not an economist so I honestly don't know which situation is better for the economy.

And programs that force a high wage can be good, but there obviously isn't much policing of either issue.

I'd just like to see programs that force a living wage. You can't afford to live in San Francisco flipping burgers, unless you're willing to stack up several people in a living space intended for far fewer.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[koehn]

You said:
Its really quite simple: The USA taxes away (state local and federal) about 65% of the income of its workers.

Huh? I'm married, in the top federal tax bracket (AMT, thanks so much), living in a high-tax state (Minnesota) with a spendy house in a high-property-tax county. I don't spend anywhere near 65% of my income on taxes, not even close to 30%. Folks I know who make less than I do (i.e., not in top tax bracket) pay less of a percentage than I do. What are you smoking?

A US BS graduate has an investment of about $300,000 of Tax Cost before they graduate. This has to be repaid.

Also, what fiction are you using to come up with a $300K tax cost? To get a student through K-12 in my high-tax state (funds education at a higher level than almost anyone, my municipality is in the top 1%) costs the taxpayers about $84,000. How is it that you think that a BS costs the state (not counting tuition which is paid in after-tax dollars, mind you) the other $216,000?

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Bearhouse]

It would seem that the real problem is the lack of a labour-market test. The lottery system is simple, and gives a chance to people with no money, but clearly sub-optimal. If a US-company wants to recruit overseas, hell, why not? Paying for visa would perhaps address the concerns voiced above. If the employer had to shell out - say - 100kUS per visa, well then perhaps they'd really consider local options, and not be so tempted to 'abuse' people they recruited. What to do with the money? Easy, finance eductaion for people in the US who curently cannot afford it. Write your representative now!

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[MindStalker]

I mean force a higher wage than standard for an industry if you import workers.

Either way, I don't think food cost would be too as high as you imagine. There are a lot of farms that aren't on the border and don't have a large illegal work force, mostly mechanized, but at least you aren't paying social programs for the machines... :)

Though from what I've heard food cost in California has stayed relatively low when compared to prices for other things there, so I could imagine removal of such artificial barriers would likely drive food prices sky high, then possibly drive prices down for other things.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lewisham]

Yes, I agree with you. I certainly didn't mean to advocate free immigration or anything of that magnitude, although I know it sounded that way :)

Let's be realllllly bad and say all technology is in California; for argument. And let's also say that all the H1-B apps were for technology companies.

Google tells me that there are just under 34 million people living in CA right now. Rounding the figures, that's 520 Californians to every H1-B. Obviously, if you start widening the net, the number of citizens per visa goes up. I think there is certainly more room for more people; if it's proven they are well-skilled. New Zealand says you qualify as a tech worker if you have at least a BSc and three years experience, although they don't yet have the experience quota go down for higher education after that. I think these sort of people would be worth it. Heck, even make them take the US citizenship test to make sure they're coming to the US to integrate and not simply leech.

It shouldn't be a free lunch, but it's just too hard right now.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lewisham]

Yeah, the quickie marriage has been considered, which is quite sad in itself I think. It's not something I want to do, because as another commenter suggested, I only intend to do it once. That's why we're here in NZ just letting the relationship carry along it's natural course.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[sgt_doom]

Well said, Good Citizen Malqqi, and please don't forget those H-2Bs, H-2Cs, L-1s, O-1s, P-1s, P-2s, P-3s....am I forgetting anyone here???????

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lewisham]

Yeah, we've looked into the marriage thing. It's not off the table, but it's just not the right time for it. Not yet.

Yes, not having to worry about status is a wonderful thing! I'm glad it worked out for you guys too :)

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lewisham]

Bandwidth is terrible; the links out to the Pacific are just horrifically bad. Once it gets to 6PM, the available bandwidth falls through the floor and it chugs like crazy. Only a couple of ISP plans let you have unlimited transfer, which, coming from the UK, is utterly bizarre to me.

Wages as IT workers are good against other workers in the country, but pretty much everything comes with a higher premium attached because of import/export or something. Food costs more. Technology certainly costs more. Cars cost more than the US, but less than the UK. Rent is a bit less than the UK. It's certainly not a place where I think the time is something you can spend investing cash; the exchange rate doesn't help that either.

You can certainly live quite happily on the wages you get, but the time won't be spent saving money, so if you're looking to get on the property ladder or have loans you need to pay back home, finanicially, it won't be a clever idea.

Wellington is a lovely city though.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Lord Ender]

yet lets the illegals who burden the system walk across the border without fear of repercussion.

Those would be the ones who ensure you never have to worry about affording basic groceries in Safeway.

Groceries are like 5% of my budget. I'll manage.

Also, an increase in labor costs in the agro industry would promote an investment in automation, which would lower the cost of food in the long run (and provide jobs for highly-skilled laborers, like engineers).

In significantly socialized countries, like the USA (face it: our medical industry is inefficiently and informally socialized right now), we should leave the immigration decisions up to the actual economists.

Open immigration only made sense back when the US was minimally socialized-- 50+ years ago.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[iamacat]

Marriage vows have little to do with filling in a government paper.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[iamacat]

It's not your budget we are worried about. If you make 100K, millions of people spending 20K spend a quarter of income on food, after paying taxes, rent, medical expenses, home heating costs... If prices go 50% higher, it's easy to see how one can fail to get needing nutrition during pregnancy or for small children, with disastrous consequences.

Besides, if agriculture is fully automated, just how do you expect current farmers to pay for their groceries? What makes you think it will be more ecologically sound or humane to animals than some current factory-style practices?

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[jcr]

If you're not looking for employment and have that kind of money to spend, you can already get into the USA without the H1-B program.

-jcr

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[oakgrove]

The parent poster was replying to the GP poster that was implying that the argument of Americans deserving jobs in America more than foreigners was a racist comment. Notice his sarcastic use of the word nigger. Read slower, comment even more so.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Anonymous Coward]

So his numbers are off.

Your federal income tax if you made:

$25000 is 13.5%
$50,000 is 18.1%
$100,000 is 28%

if you are single

FICA withholdings include social security (12.4%) and medicare (2.9%) are 15.3% for everyone, even the part time burger flippers.

States have various taxes, licenses and fees. Everyone pays sales tax (except Montana and Oregon, who make up for it with higher income tax.) But overall state taxes run around 10 to 15% plus additional requirements like drivers license fees, vehicle registration fees, hunting and fishing fees, etc.

Then, if you own property, you can get hit with up to several thousand dollars, the more you improve your property, the more you pay. Sometimes you just pay more if your neighbors improve their property. Say you have a 1% percent tax on a $250,000 home, that gives you a $2500 bill every year.

Additional taxes on things like utilities, hotels, flights, gas, alcohol, tobacco are not insignificant either, but vary greatly. Just tax on gas alone, in a Honda that takes 10 gallons a week is is over We'll assume a flat $1000 to ease the computation.

So, an individual making $25,000 (after deductions) pays:
13.5% on Federal Income tax
15.2% on Social Security and Medicare
0-10% on State Income tax
0-10% on State Sales tax
10% on Property Tax
4% on miscellaneous licenses and fees

For a total tax of (averaging State sales and income tax at 10%)
52%

The same individual making $50,000 and with relatively increased spending, pays
50.2%
The slightly lower percentage reflects that purchases, property taxes and fees are a smaller percentage of income, even if state and federal income taxes are higher.

If he made $100,000, the total tax would be
55.8%
He get's a small break on FICA because only the first $90,000 is taxed.

If you make over $200,000 you get a really hard hit with income taxes, but other fees go down. The small business owner making between $100,000 and $500,000, but not able to shelter his taxes the way large corporations do ends up paying the most in taxesThese numbers seem a little high, since I live in Washington, a high tax state, and calculated about 45% spent on tax on wages of $62,000 (before deductions). Of course I don't own property, so that's probably the difference. But it reflects the national average, and you hear the media talk about "tax free day" estimated to be late in May (about 45% of the way through the year) for the average tax payer.

Just don't let anyone tell you fat cats pay it all or the poor get off without paying. Even if you get 100% return on income, you've still got 20% or more you pay in FICA and sales tax plus fees. The middle class is huge, and for every millionaire there are hundred of people paying 40% or more of $40,000 in taxes.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[r00t]

California is under US law. I'm sure California would be fine with you living in sin.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[niloo]

HOW TO CONTACT CONGRESS REGARDING CURRENT H-1B CRISIS SITUATION: See available webform to contact your Congressman or Senator here http://capwiz.com/aila2/issues/alert/?alertid=9221 981&type=CO

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[Copid]

I don't see what else this would achieve without just being a way of gouging money, and further screwing job-seekers who actually want to pay taxes, contribute to the economy and the growth of American companies. I don't subscribe to the idea that skilled workers take American jobs, I believe they help companies grow and generate more jobs in the long-term.

I think that the point of the H1-B program is that would could skim the most valuable workers from other economies without creating a total labor glut of mediocre people do depress wages all over. The idea was, if you need somebody with special skills that you can't easily get around here, you should be able to hire abroad. A lottery system doesn't perform that function nearly as well as an auction system would. Why give a visa to a person who was hired because he was slightly better than his competitors when you could give the visa to somebody who was so much more of a valuable rarity that his employer was willing to drop $100K or more on a visa to get him in the door? Giving the visa to the first person and sending the other person packing is a seriously suboptimal outcome.

In fact, it might be interesting to initially auction the set of visa slots off and then create a market for privately trading them afterward. New visas would issue at the market price like corporate stock. The price of a visa would more accurately reflect the discrepancy in value between the local market and the worldwide market and give labor economists interesting numbers to work with simply by watching price fluctuations in the visa market. The particulars could be pretty tricky, but the idea may work.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[ZoOnI]

Not a good idea. The large corporations use the H-1B workers as indentured workers, usually applying for green cards for them after they receive their H1Bs. This keeps a highly skilled worker at a company for years at a lower salary. Companies like M$ would gladly pay premium dollar for the cheap skilled labour and smaller US business would lose the ability to find workers and compete.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery.

[koehn]

You're obviously not filling out a tax form.

Nobody actually pays those rates, since tax credits, deductions, and exemptions all make the numbers go way, way down. The Fed credits you for all taxes you pay to States and municipalities, itemize your deductions (incl mortgage interest on your home), FICA caps out after $89,500, etc. Using 401K, VUL, IRA, etc. you can defer your tax burden until you're retired, and end up paying way, way less since after retirement most people are in a pretty low bracket. There are a ton of ways to dodge the burden at the high end.

On the other end of the scale, people who make $25,000/year pay very little in taxes, particularly if they have children. There's just no way to make it happen. Unfortunately the folks on the low end usually pay more than they should, because they often don't know the ins and outs of dodging the burden at the low end (different techniques than at the high end, obviously, but still present).

In any case, nobody pays close to 65% in the US. Not even 50%.

Not an english major

[gkozlyk]

Batchelor degrees, eh? Didn't know you could get those too.

Re:Not an english major

[aalu.paneer]

Yes, people with Batchelor degrees do bach processing.

Re:First post!

[RobBebop]

batchelor's degrees? shouldn't this be bachelor's degree?

Maybe the US is simply recognizing that our own standards have fallen so low that when a foriegn-born individual comes waving his or her "batchelor's degree", we welcome them with open arms because we are none-the-wiser.

kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[Anonymous Coward]

Kdawson, please suck my balls. Hard. Really hard. You make this site suck even more than it normally would. It's half as bad as digg at this point. You actually submitted a headline where the moron spelled it batchelor

Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[illegalcortex]

You actually submitted a headline where the moron spelled it batchelor

Which moron? Isn't this a submission created by kdawson? I don't see any "So and so writes" in front of the article text. This would imply there was no second moron involved.

Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[Jose]

kdawson does seem pretty lazy, leaving out the "dept" section a lot, posting *obviously* wrong and misleading summaries of stories, and not bothering to update the story..just seems lazy.

Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

Surely that's what the firehose is for? I'd have thought that the Powers That Be (tm) would know by now roughly how long typos and other errors take to get spotted there, and would wait that long before sticking stuff on the front page?

Actually using a spellchecker would, of course, also be an option...

Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[jimbojw]

> It's half as bad as digg at this point.

And since digg's half as bad already, that splits them into some kind of fraction I can't even measure.

Re:kdawson FOR THE WIN at posting articles

[T.E.D.]

You actually submitted a headline where the moron spelled it batchelor

Which moron? Isn't this a submission created by kdawson? I don't see any "So and so writes" in front of the article text. This would imply there was no second moron involved.

The second moron was hiding in the grassy gnoll.

We need more

[phathead296]

Is there anyone else here who thinks this is an indication that we need more Visas?

While millions of unskilled illegals flood our borders every year, stressing our social safety net, the people we want in this country can't get in. We need more skilled workers who want to work within the system and work here legally and fewer unskilled workers who end up with a free ride at taxpayer's--mine and your--expense.

Re:We need more

[illegalcortex]

It's questionable what percentage of these H1-B workers would be as desirable if they were here on regular visas. H1-B puts the employee in a certain position that very advantageous to the employer. I wouldn't mind finding out, though. I'm all for ditching the H1-B system and allowing full, unlimited immigration to highly skilled workers.

Re:We need more

[eln]

Please explain how letting in more highly skilled workers would keep low skilled workers from entering the country illegally. Unless you're suggesting hiring H1-B workers as border patrol agents, I don't see it.

Re:We need more

[MillionthMonkey]

Is there anyone else here who thinks this is an indication that we need more Visas?

We? Who's "we"?

Re:We need more

[Brandybuck]

I've been saying that since day one. Get tough as nails about illegal immigration, but otherwise give visas to anyone who has a job lined up, valid as long as they are employed.

And then you'll start seeing everyone's hypocrisy rising to the surface! The "pro-immigration" crowd is okay with immigration as long as it's poor Mexicans wanting the jobs "no one else wants", but they'll scream bloody murder when it's middle class Indians after *their* jobs.

Re:We need more

[cdrguru]

What the heck is wrong with the idea that Americans can be doing American jobs?

Sure, many employers would rather hire someone that needs permission to change jobs and can pay them something less than someone born in the USA. Why do we want to give them that privilege?

This has nothing to do with illegal immigration. The illegals are being exploited in the US almost as much (but not quite) as they were exploited and abused in their home country. But given that the reward of working in the US is so much higher than any compensation possible in their home country, the risk of dying to get here is perfectly acceptable. It is very difficult to combat that. Maybe in 100 years the economy in Central America might be better so the differential would be so much less that it wouldn't be practical for people to go to the US. But these economies are so rife with corruption and graft that it would take a miracle for such a transformation to occur. So it isn't going to be soon.

Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.

Re:We need more

[ClosedSource]

"While millions of unskilled illegals flood our borders every year, stressing our social safety net, the people we want in this country can't get in"

Given that few Americans are interested in the kind of unskilled work illegals do and there's no shortage of unemployed engineers and programmers who are US citizens and willing to work, I'd say we need the unskilled a lot more than the skilled.

".. fewer unskilled workers who end up with a free ride at taxpayer's--mine and your--expense."

What "free ride" are you referring to?

Re:We need more

[kevin lyda]

Actually, illegal immigrants contribute more than they consume.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

(source)

Re:We need more

[Raptoer]

I agree(in a way)
The only true solution to illegal aliens from central America sneaking into US is to make the central Americas better, so that they do not need to illegally immigrate.

if you deport them they will come back.
if you put up a wall then its bad PR
if you go on a giant manhunt to get rid of every illegal alien and every person that helps or hires them then you are just asking for trouble, like witch hunt type thing.
there are 2 good solutions (both needing to be implemented at the same time) increase the number of visas so that people will actually try to get one, rather than just ignoring it, and making it so that they have less of a reason to immigrate.

Japan, china and western Europe were annihilated during ww2, and yet with American help (mostly loans) they came back to be major powers, so why cant we fix Central America?

America has always been the refuge for people needing relief from economic or political conditions. All the way back to the colonies, and more importantly the Irish and German immigrations in the 1800's and the immigrations from eastern Europe past the 1850's.

Re:We need more

[moosesocks]

If there were Americans to fill these spots, I wouldn't doubt that they'd be filled by Americans. It's a far cry from "throwing open the borders" (which I would imagine would apply more to unskilled jobs than skilled jobs anyway)

The H-1B process is so costly, time-consuming, and unreliable that an employer would be insane not to.

Instead, in effect, you end up with a talent-shortage. Americans are still out of a job, and companies are unable to maintain an edge in order to stay competitive in the international market. It's not like H-1B workers tend to live in poverty or get paid less than Americans either. Given that we're LOSING skilled workers to emigration, wouldn't it make sense to let more back in to fill the void?

If we can't fill our jobs with our own people, then there is something seriously wrong with our education system that needs to be addressed immediately. Basic economics indicates that opening the job market up to competition would be the fastest and most effective way to make this happen.

Re:We need more

[Tablizer]

Unless you're suggesting hiring H1-B workers as border patrol agents, I don't see it.

Dude, I think you're on to something there.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.

You're going to have to do better than just assert that if you want people to believe you, because it makes it sound like you are either a racist who thinks that the culture of central america is inherently dishonest, or you are a poor economist who thinks that open borders will lead to massive depression such that the majority of the people in the US are unable to earn a living wage and must resort to abuse of power to supplement their income.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

If there were Americans to fill these spots, I wouldn't doubt that they'd be filled by Americans.

In a free market, if demand increases while supply remains constant, than prices will rise. Yet we've seen near static wage levels in the computer industry since the end of the dot-bomb years. This empirical evidence shows that there are plenty of Americans available to fill these spots.

If we can't fill our jobs with our own people, then there is something seriously wrong with our education system that needs to be addressed immediately. Basic economics indicates that opening the job market up to competition would be the fastest and most effective way to make this happen.

No, there is nothing terribly wrong with our education system. It is the incentive system that has something seriously wrong with it. The guys going into college know that the job market for computer engineers sucks, so they've been studying other disciplines, enrollment in computer science courses is at record lows all across the country but general college enrollment is climbing.

Make it an attractive career, not one where the suits take advantage of the geeks, and you'll see plenty of increased interest. But if the industry continues to undercut its current people, they will eventually find themselves in a situation where they really do need tons of H1Bs for their talent and not for their effect on wages. Or they'll find that other countries need these guys more than the US does because we've lost our edge.

Re:We need more

[Alpha830RulZ]

Actually, economically speaking, it's an indication that wage rates in the US are too high, as viewed in the world market. We are oversupplied with wage seekers from overseas. Be careful of what you ask for, these barriers are a partial reason for why those of us who read slashdot get to drive nice cars.

Re:We need more

[drsquare]

How are unskilled workers getting a free ride? I'm pretty sure they're working for a living. The skilled immigrants have more chance of making a living back in their own country than the unskilled workers anyway.

Re:We need more

[drsquare]

Japan, china and western Europe were annihilated during ww2, and yet with American help (mostly loans) they came back to be major powers, so why cant we fix Central America?

After the war, Europe's problems were merely economical, beforehand they were decent countries. Central America's problems go way beyond economics, their problems are institutional and ingrained. They're completely corrupt, and I'm not sure that can be easily changed.

Re:We need more

[maop]

Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.

This seems to be a non sequitur. Do you want to explain yourself here?

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Quantity does not mean quality, 100 monkeys can't do the job of 1 human. You can't magically create properly raised children with work discipline, intelligence/critical thinking and 20 years of proper education.

Hello, McFly?

What part of "demand exceeds supply" do you fail to understand? 'Quality' is just another factor of the supply. To be stunningly obvious, if the supply of qualified people did not meet demand, then the price for qualified people would be increasing. Their incomes would affect the figures for average industry income, yet average incomes have long been stagnant.

The rest of your post is a bunch of bizarre anecdotes, dismissal of cited facts and ridiculous generalizations, "Most Americans ... are lazy idiots." If you really think those kinds of claims equal a supporting argument, then clearly you've indulged in this terrible education system you rail against.

Re:We need more

[iamacat]

After the war, Europe's problems were merely economical, beforehand they were decent countries

Which is what made them fight one world war after another, huh?

Re:We need more

[iamacat]

"Free" because the their salary is minimal, so almost no taxes are withdrawn.

Its too bad that their employers are forced by someone to pay lousy salaries or to evade taxes themselves.

Re:We need more

[clickety6]

The only true solution to illegal aliens from central America sneaking into US is to make the central Americas better, so that they do not need to illegally immigrate.

Actually, there is a second solution that the USA is pursuing which is to make the uSA more like a corrupt Latin-American dictatorship with secret police, disappearing citizens and restricted press/reporting. After a few more years, the central Americans won't want to move to the USA because it will be worse than where they currently are! :-)

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Not really given how damn massive a field CS/IT are and just how many different jobs there are.

Lol! The "its too big for regular arithmetic to work!" argument. Yeah, right.

Also not everyone agrees with your "facts":

Your citation is not in the least contradictory. From your article, "For the first time since 2001, employers reported increases in starting salary offers to students in computer science" - in other words, 3 years of no increases until finally in the 4th year there was an increase that still lagged inflation for the prior period. Hardly the damning contradiction.

this is me amusing myself.

Now that we've established you are just engaging in public masturbation, I think we are done here.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Not quite done...

Your CNN article with NACE data for 2004, starting salary Computer Engineering: $53,117

NACE starting salary data for 2006: $53,330

Right there in the heart of H1B land, yet only a 0.4% increase in two years.
The market is really boiling ain't it?

Re:We need more

[Alioth]

In a free market, you wouldn't have H1-B visas - there would be no requirements for a visa at all. You could work in whatever country you pleased. Visa and immigration restrictions distort the free market (actually, prevent it from existing at all).

Re:We need more

[narf501]

I do agree, we are losing skilled people, mainly because of the bad perception the workplace is for CS and IT people. The image of a CS person once they get their degree is someone working endless hours for low wages, trying to fight for their jobs against cheap offshore labor. This is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Good people who would go into CS, who know what software engineering is end up heading into other fields because they hear the horror stories and head to other places. I looked at statistics of a local liberal arts college which offers a CS plan, and enrollment is down 90-95% in the past several years.

What is important is that the US NEEDS to have a solid CS/IT worker foundation. This will become increasingly more important as more of our life ends up dealing with the Internet.

Re:We need more

[Realistic_Dragon]

The US certainly needs to do something.

There is currently a 4 year+ queue for people over 21 with a US citizen parent to obtain a green card. If they get married during the wait they go to the back of an EIGHT year queue.

Oh, and their spouse dosen't get a visa when they do, there is another 5 year wait on top of that. If they chose to apply as the spouse as an LPR (instead of waiting for citizenship) then during the 5 year wait their spouse can't even enter the US.

This is true even for citizens of affluent countries with technical degrees and well paying jobs who would, but for ITAR and the difficulty of the H1B process, be happy to move them to the US.

Because of this I have been unable to get married despite being engaged for over a year, and once we do manage to get married we won't be able to live together for at least five years.

The US system is at present seriously broken.

Re:We need more

[cfulmer]

In all but the tiniest minority of those cases, though, there are Americans to fill those spots. Think about it: what would a company do if the number of H1B visas suddenly went to zero? (Let's ignore offshoring the job itself, which I'll admit is one of the probably outcomes.) Another way of asking the question is: what do all those companies do when the don't get the H1B visa? Well, the company would search harder for potential candidates, would hire suitably qualified people from their competitors and would find people who aren't quite trained for the job, and train them. All those alternatives have costs. But, as long as the cost of the H1B visa is lower, nobody is going to expend those training and search costs.

An auction actually helps determine where the tipping point is -- the point at which the cost of the H1B visa is more than the search and training costs. If the auction price is low, that's a good indication that companies are not willing to spend much effort in training and recruitment, preferring to turn to H1B visas instead. But, if it's high, that means that they're expending a lot of money doing training and recruitment, and it may be a good policy to increase the number of H1B visas to reduce that cost.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

The only true solution to illegal aliens from central America sneaking into US is to make the central Americas better, so that they do not need to illegally immigrate.

So the US is held hostage: come and fix our messed up countries, or we'll flood you with illegals until you collapse. Does this seem acceptable to you? Why would the US even be obligated to rescue Central American countries from their own problems? When the US does intervene somewhere, people complain about World Police and imperialism, and I don't think this would be any different.

if you deport them they will come back.

Doesn't matter. They're illegal aliens for a reason, they should be deported.

if you put up a wall then its bad PR

Who cares? The US has a right to secure its borders and enforce its immigration policies. Anyone who protests that is effectively saying that people have some kind of right to illegally enter the US and live there, which in turn means that the US may as well stop monitoring the border entirely.

Also, bad PR (justified or not) is routine for the US. Anything they do or don't do is always bad PR.

if you go on a giant manhunt to get rid of every illegal alien and every person that helps or hires them then you are just asking for trouble, like witch hunt type thing.

It's not a witch hunt. They're illegally in the country and the government has a right to eject them.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

What about the American Civil War? Oh snap!

No, fighting wars doesn't mean that your country is a tool of the Anti-Christ. Everyone fights wars, the US and Europe included.

Re:We need more

[Cyberax]

Grandparent is not racist, he's not saying that Central Americans are genetically corrupt.

Their _countries_, however, are corrupt.

Re:We need more

[VEGETA_GT]

Ok I am a Canadian working in the US on a TN visa (1 year visa specific for Canadians and Mexicans), my company was applying for a H-1B Visa for me, but now I have to wonder if I even have a snow ball chance of getting it because of this. I actually never looked for a job in the US, this company literally called me up, the interview was a few questions and they wanted me down within 1 week. I have been working ever since on a TN visa. The TN can be renewed every year, usually not a big issue, but all it takes is one time for homeland security to say no and I am screwed. I am asked by a company to work here which to me shows they have a hard time finding people to fill my shoes state side. Yet the government dose not understand this and looks like I may not get a H-1B this year and hell its a crap shoot for next.

As sad as this sounds, I am actully rooting for Billy Gates lobbying for more H-1B visa's, and I am no ware near a supporter for Gates in general. I will agree if the skilled people to fill my shoes are state side, then great let them work my position, I do agree with putting your countryman first, but if you can't fill some positions why make it so its near imposable to get someone else ware to fill it. Say I was from England, then I can't get TN visa status leaving my only hope in the H-1B and thats a 1 year event thats like concert tickets to the most popular band around.

Re:We need more

[hemp]

Great post!

Re:We need more

[hey!]

Except that demand and supply in an innovation driven field are related so simply.

One could argue that the stagnation of US tech wages reflects a stagnation of US innovation as much as an adequate supply of workers.

Re:We need more

[illegalcortex]

And then you'll start seeing everyone's hypocrisy rising to the surface! The "pro-immigration" crowd is okay with immigration as long as it's poor Mexicans wanting the jobs "no one else wants"

I'm not sure I'd say hypocrisy. I've heard plenty of them out and out saying it just the way you phrased it. So whether or not you like their stance, since they're already saying it there's really not a lot of room for hypocrisy. Maybe the confusion lies in the fact that there isn't only one crowd, but many different groups that sometimes intersect.

Re:We need more

[AK Marc]

Well, when we let in 10 skilled workers and 100 unskilled workers get in illegally, we have a 1:10 ratio of skilled to unskilled labor. When we let in 50 skilled workers, we now have a 1:2 ration of skilled to unskilled workers. That's how we get a lower impact on our economy from the flow of unskilled labor.

Re:We need more

[Idbar]

No, there is nothing terribly wrong with our education system. It is the incentive system that has something seriously wrong with it. The guys going into college know that the job market for computer engineers sucks, so they've been studying other disciplines, enrollment in computer science courses is at record lows all across the country but general college enrollment is climbing.

Although I agree that there is nothing terribly wrong with the education system, I also want to point out that the terribly wrong thing is the capitalist culture: "Why would I get a $18000 stipend studying and researching, spending late nights in a lab. when I can go there with a B.S. and get $50 or $60k?", simply because "I want the money now, and I know I can get it as an American".

Foreign students know that incomes will be much better here, but getting a job in the US with only a B.S. is out of the question (Even though some B.S. programs outside US might be much better than US programs), then the market needs to be filled with tons of graduate students that wait to get probably the same $60k, luckily, M.S. and PhDs get bigger incomes, that several Americans won't try to get because they are worried to get instant gratification for their 4 year undergrad.

I recently commented about more incentives from American universities, to get students into graduate programs. Otherwise, universities in other countries can easily "buy" skilled students by only paying stipends, decreasing the current research capacity of research universities. US has lots of money in research, and that's what keep students coming to the US, but the money doesn't seem to be enough for Americans, and that's probably why they run away.

As for Computer Engineering jobs suck... you are generalizing that all the H1B visas are going to be for Computer Engineering Jobs. But in that case, I believe that a M.S. or a PhD gives tools to step up faster in any hierarchy no matter the company, and that should be motivation enough. If not, probably start-ups due to research should be enough, but since Bill Gates made his fortune dropping school, who cares about graduate studies anyway? If Americans could understand that 4 more years of study can get them into better jobs, and that those 4 years don't need to be paid from you pocket, that would be reason enough to increase the motivation.

In the mean time, with no qualified hand of labor, I think US should be open to receive as many skilled workers as they can, since money to keep them here is still not an issue. Companies like Verizon, as far as I know, pay the employees studies aiming to increase the qualifications of the own workers that already know about the business due to the years of experience there.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Their _countries_, however, are corrupt.

Then please explain how that has any bearing on what would happen to the if we opened the borders.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

who thinks that the culture of central america is inherently dishonest

Well maybe it is....
They'll transform the country into their own image.

So, after going on and on about how I am somehow racist for pointing out a racist statement, you make the exact same racist claim?
You really haven't done your point much good.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

In a free market, you wouldn't have H1-B visas - there would be no requirements for a visa at all. You could work in whatever country you pleased. Visa and immigration restrictions distort the free market (actually, prevent it from existing at all).

Indeed. I completely agree, but in this case they only have the effect of isolating supply to what is in the country, as if the rest of the world did not exist, so it is still a pretty close approximation.

Re:We need more

[mutterc]

The H-1B process is so costly, time-consuming, and unreliable

I've always wondered this - why do employers do it, then? You have all these costs and paperwork headaches that come along with it, and you're required to pay them the same as equivalent American workers.

I can't imagine that there really is nobody already in the US (to take an example from the dozen or so H1B's at my day job), willing to relocate to Raleigh, who can do router development.

Should we start some shareholder lawsuits? Because obviously the companies hiring H1B's are wasting shareholders' money.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

I was posting anonymously earlier.

So, after going on and on about how I am somehow racist for pointing out a racist statement, you make the exact same racist claim?
You really haven't done your point much good.

I didn't make any racist statements. I never mentioned race. This has nothing to do with appearance or biology. Perhaps you think otherwise.

Re:We need more

[AK Marc]

If there were Americans to fill these spots, I wouldn't doubt that they'd be filled by Americans.

Aside from controlled entry positions (you can't be a doctor unless the AMA approves of you and if you aren't AMA approved, the state will come after you and wherever you work), jobs get filled. If there is a shortage, then companies pay a little more to lure people away from other companies. People see that there is demand and rising wages, and more people enter the field. There may be a short lag, but the jobs get filled by Americans. Companies want H-1B not because of the wait in filling the position (that's a requirement with H-1Bs anyway), but because they don't want to pay what it would take to fill the position. There is one and only one reason for foreign labor, lower cost. Yes, it takes time and an expense, but being able to keep wages down for all the well trained people is worth it.

Instead, in effect, you end up with a talent-shortage. Americans are still out of a job, and companies are unable to maintain an edge in order to stay competitive in the international market. It's not like H-1B workers tend to live in poverty or get paid less than Americans either. Given that we're LOSING skilled workers to emigration, wouldn't it make sense to let more back in to fill the void?

But the effect is that the depression of wages gets Americans to not go into that line. Why should I train for a position that they hire foreign workers for anyway? They'll replace me with someone cheaper, as they've shown that they are interested only in money. H-1Bs drive American workers from the market, then the workers driven away are proof that more H-1Bs are needed. It's a downward spiral that hurts the American economy.

Re:We need more

[loudici]

>I can't imagine that there really is nobody already in the US (to take an example from the dozen or so H1B's at my day job), willing to relocate to Raleigh, who can do router development.

I used to wonder about that. I have spent the last 6 months interviewing candidates for a senior developer position, and the one qualified guy we interviewed was snatched by another company.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I didn't make any racist statements. I never mentioned race. This has nothing to do with appearance or biology. Perhaps you think otherwise.

So you think you can hide behind a narrow definition of "race" as being solely about biology? Do I really need to quote the dictionary to you to show that race is more than just biology, it includes culture?

Re:We need more

[Cyberax]

One word: culture.

I was born in Russia and currently live in Ukraine (moved here just a year ago). Corruption and graft is ingrained in Russian culture. Bribery is considered immoral, but it is still just a "fact of life". A lot of people here, for example, just give bribes to road police when stopped for speed limit violation because "everyone does it".

You just can't imagine how deep corruption can be.

Re:We need more

[djp928]

There is currently a 4 year+ queue for people over 21 with a US citizen parent to obtain a green card.

What exactly are you talking about? If you have a US citizen parent, you are already entitled to US citizenship. Unless the country you were born in (presuming it wasn't the US--because if you were born in the US even if you *aren't* the child of US citizens, you're entitled to US citizenship if you want it) explicitly forbids dual nationality or something, then there shouldn't be any issue at all.

My wife fits this description perfectly. Her mother is a US citizen, her father is a New Zealand citizen. She was born and lived the first 30+ years of her life in New Zealand. But when she moved to the US to be with me, there was exactly zero hassle. Because her mother was a US citizen, she just applied for a US passport and came over. She's a citizen of both countries.

Re:We need more

[Kelbear]

I wonder if "America" as we know it can even exist in a world of full unchecked globalism. The net output of the world is almost undoubtedly higher in that scenario, but not everyone benefits equally from globalism. The company saves money hiring a lower wage worker, but the higher wage worker just got screwed, and will lose his standard of living.

3rd world countries who lack the capital to compete in the global market with modern industries have their corresponding industry undercut and wiped out.

An American losing his job to his immigrant may be able to find another job or go back to school and end up more productive and paid more. However, a farmer or fisher in the 3rd world whose industry gets destroyed is going to have a much harder time finding alternative employment or education for a new job.

For example, the Three Gorges Dam, an enormous project that will provide China with electricity to support its growing economic power. However, this same Three Gorges Dam involves relocation and destruction for the people living along the Yellow River on the scale of a man-made Hurricane Katrina. Fishermen along that river lose their trade and don't have the equivalent education of an American to find another job. Some obviously will, but the process is considerably harder.

In summary, globalism can be more productive, but not everyone benefits equally from that productivity and may even be harmed. And with that said, if an action is not in the best interests of the American voting populace, then I feel that it is wrong for the American government to pursue that action. Serving the (potentially) greater good of the global economy at the expense of the American citizen is not something the American government should be able to allow unless the American citizen advocates it.

Re:We need more

[Ihlosi]

If you have a US citizen parent, you are already entitled to US citizenship.

Nope. Only if you were born to a US citizen parent. If one of your parents becomes a US citizen and you're over 21, it's the queue for you.

Re:We need more

[SillyNickName4me]

I'm all for paying people a fair wage, but your argument has a very simple problem..

If those people would receive a better pay, and pay more taxes, guess who has to pay for them getting payed better...

Re:We need more

[SuhlScroll]

"I'm all for ditching the H1-B system and allowing full, unlimited immigration to highly skilled workers."

So, in other words, you want to allow the labor market to pay no more for "highly skilled" workers as it does for low skilled workers.

You do realize, of course, that's exactly why there's a "shortage" of "highly skilled" workers in the first place (although in reality there's really a shortage of "highly skilled" workers who will work for what companies think those people ought to be paid) ... so your solution only adds to population growth in exchange for lowering compensation requirements for businesses. That in turn only discourages people from entering "highly skilled" careers, thus feeding the need for more "unlimited" immigration of "highly skilled" workers ... and on and on.

Funny how they don't look to allow "full, unlimited immigration of highly skilled workers" like lawyers.

Re:We need more

[ClosedSource]

"If those people would receive a better pay, and pay more taxes, guess who has to pay for them getting payed better"

The same people who pay more now so that we can receive above average salaries sitting on our asses all day programming?

Re:We need more

[illegalcortex]

Notice how I said full immigration, not temporary work visas. This includes renouncing their current citizenship (where possible - some countries don't recognize this). Right now I believe the H1-B program is the reason why the pay is so low for the positions they fill. If these people were given full citizenship and didn't have to worry about deportation when their boss fires them, the wages wouldn't be so low. These people would be paying for things like cars and houses like the rest of the Americans and would no longer find a low wage desirable because it wouldn't cover the bills. Personally, I do not believe it will harm our country to skew our population towards being more skilled. I think it will in turn foster new business opportunities that will help everyone.

I would only support such a program if it completely replaced the H1-B program. Due to politics (and in some cases some actual real needs for certain specialties), it's going to be extremely difficult to get rid of the H1-B program any other way.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

I'm not hiding behind a narrow definition because, as I already said, this is not related to race. The only reason why you would want to associate race with culture is to allow yourself to call me a racist.

Re:We need more

[SillyNickName4me]

"The same people" will do.

Re:We need more

[Cyberax]

Not all non-American cultures are highly corrupt. And the USA is just corrupted to a somewhat lesser degree.

I definitely don't agree that poverty is the sole cause of corruption. For example, Russia is not poverty-stricken nation (but not richest in the world either). And in my experience, affluent people in Russia are the most corrupt. Besides, there are somewhat wealthy and highly corrupt Asian states.

IMHO, poor economics is not the reason of corruption but one of its main causes. If I knew what is the cause of corruption and how to cure it I'd be receiving Nobel Prize in economics and not speaking on Slashdot :)

Re:We need more

[Cyberax]

No, we shouldn't nuke them. Instead we should help them to build real democratic states with non-corrupt government.

I do NOT argue with _correlation_ between poverty and corruption. I don't agree that poverty CAUSES corruption. Do you know the difference between correlation and causation?

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

One could argue that the stagnation of US tech wages reflects a stagnation of US innovation as much as an adequate supply of workers.

One could argue that ... if they didn't understand the original point.

You aren't Microsoft, you can't just say "innovation" like it is some magic phrase. "Stagnation of US innovation" is just another way to say reduced demand for innovative workers.

Re:We need more

[Brandybuck]

No one wants to spend ten hours a day bent over picking tomatoes. I've done it, and it sucks. But if you can import some illegal aliens who you can pay less than minimum wage, then you can stay under the shade of the progressivist veranda drinking mint juleps and weeping for the plight of the poor.

Re:We need more

[illegalcortex]

No one wants to do it for cheap. For enough money, people will do a whole lot of crappy jobs. Just watch a few episodes of Dirty Work. I'm not suggesting that ANYONE do those jobs for peanuts. I'm willing to pay more in food prices for those jobs to be done by citizens. I don't see what that has to do with mint juleps, though.

Re:We need more

[plasmacutter]

Throwing open the borders isn't a solution, it is just a suicide pact. All that does is transform the culture of the US into being another corrupt, graft-driven Central American country.

pardon, i thought it already was a corrupt, graft driven country.

a list off the top of my head of regulatory capture accomplished through briber... forgive me.. campaign contributions:

the energy industries (especially oil)... they arguably instigated several wars for profit, they then proceeded to engage in obvious price gouging (3 bucks + a gallon anyone?) and their benefactors didn't see the need for an investigation.

the RIAA and MPAA... they now unilaterally write copyright laws, and thanks to those laws they wrote, have near legislative authority over any economic sector remotely connected to media, additionally they now have a huge say on admittance to the wto through their stanglehold on the US, moreso than even human rights organizations!

the mining and waste disposal industries... environmental regulations were rolled back and their representatives were put in charge of environmental regulation.

the pharmaceutical industry... they now profit directly from patents based on research done with public money, enjoy protectionist policies they designed to allow price gouging in the US, and their medications are not put to strict enough scrutiny, causing irreparable and sometimes fatal damage to the health of countless hundreds of thousands (millions?) due to "unforseen side effects"

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

I don't agree with the way people casually use the word racist in every possible situation these days, and I don't care what the dictionary says about it or doesn't say about it. I've learned to think independently.

But, lets say the dictionary definition is what you want it to be - would you prefer to be called a bigot instead of a racist?

Would you prefer to actually think about things, properly argue your points or have brainless, politically correct knee-jerk reactions every time someone challenges PC Dogma #1627? People like you can't do anything except scream "BIGOT! RACIST! FUCK!" every goddamn time someone says something that's even remotely politically incorrect, or something that attributes negative qualities to a group of people who have been designated as perpetual Victims in the leftist cosmology. You're like trained monkeys.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I don't agree with the way people casually use the word racist in every possible situation these days, and I don't care what the dictionary says about it or doesn't say about it. I've learned to think independently.

So, I use the a word in its correct dictionary form. You hop in all high and mighty correcting me, and when shown up for the ignoranus you are, you think "I've learned to think independently" is an excuse? (oh wait, I can hear it now, you don't make excuses, you are the universal dictator of truth!!!!)

Would you prefer to actually think about things, properly argue your points

All the while you have not refuted a single point from my original post. Your kettle is so black it has sucked the light out of your soul.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

So, I use the a word in its correct dictionary form. You hop in all high and mighty correcting me, and when shown up for the ignoranus you are, you think "I've learned to think independently" is an excuse? (oh wait, I can hear it now, you don't make excuses, you are the universal dictator of truth!!!!)

It's not an excuse, but I don't really expect someone like you to understand anything about independent or critical thinking.

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

It's not an excuse, but I don't really expect someone like you to understand anything about independent or critical thinking.

Aisha was 19 years old when she married Muhammad, you rascally independent thinker, you.

Re:We need more

[ScrewMaster]

The problem with your approach is that it leaves out a whole lot of other aspects to a human being that make them desirable immigrants, or otherwise. Their skillset with regards to their job is important, to be sure, but from society's perspective not so important as their understanding and accepting what this country is about. Not so important as whether they are actually good people, that can be trusted in the rather sensitive positions where they frequently end up. We have been far too focused on the economic factors (because that's all most large businesses care about) and have been completely ignoring the far more important cultural ones.

The thing is, we want people that want to be American, not just people who want to improve their lot because their country of origin sucks, and who could not care less about America and its people. It isn't our job to provide work for everyone that needs it, nor does legalized usury (for that's what an H1-B amounts to) really sit well with our history and traditions. Some people think that it does, and the results of that thinking are self-evident.

Consequently, I don't care how bright or educated a potential immigrant: we have plenty of bright, educated people here, and we'd have more if it weren't for the H1-B program and other intellectual deterrents our government has put in place. What I want to see, as an American, is someone that understands our traditions and our beliefs, and doesn't look at America as an entity to be exploited. If that's how they see us, we don't need them. They aren't worth it. Immigration isn't about giving away our candy store, it isn't about providing jobs for people that can't find work in their homelands ... it's about making America a better place. That's how all other nations look at immigration, in fact most are very careful to whom they grant residency or citizenship. We used to be. For some interesting reading take a close look at Mexico's own immigration law. Then try emigrating to Mexico. I guarantee that the results will be enlightening, and point out a lot of what is wrong with our own policies.

I understand this well, because my fiancee is African (I'm not ... your typical middle-aged Caucasian engineer.) She's been here for over twenty-five years as a legal immigrant, finally got her citizenship about four years ago. She's a shining example of what happens when United States immigration policy works, when you get right down to it. However, what's happening with illegal immigration and the H1-B's just torques her into a pretzel, because she went through all the hoops and earned her right to work, earned her citizenship, and they just weasel on in. Matter of fact, I respect her more than many of my fellow Americans who, in their post-industrial complacency, seem to have forgotten what this nation is all about. She sees America, its law and traditions, as something of a wonderland, rare in the history of the world. Furthermore, she sees this country as something worth preserving. So do I.

A lot of us don't see it that way anymore, or so it seems to me, but anyone wanting to move here should be required to see it that way. Otherwise we're just shooting ourselves in our collective foot.

Re:We need more

[avanaardt]

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the higher skilled workers will earn higher salaries and pay more taxes.... to pay for more border guards? Just a wild guess, mind you.

Re:We need more

[illegalcortex]

I'm not sure why you claim there's a problem with my approach. I don't see anything in yours that is different from what I suggested. What is different is that I wouldn't let them stay here for twenty years dicking around without deciding whether they wanted to be an American.

Re:We need more

[ScrewMaster]

What is different is that I wouldn't let them stay here for twenty years dicking around without deciding whether they wanted to be an American.

That is your mistake. The reason you spend twenty years dicking around with them is because, when that time is up ... you're sure that they're people we want to have on our side. You're sure that they are not only on our side, but that they are us in spirit. Like it or not, that's what it takes: the process is called "assimilation" (yes, rather Borg-like in a way) and it requires time. During that period, there are many who decide that America is not for them, and return home. Others prove unacceptable to us, and are sent home. Think of it as a trial period.

And when those newly-minted Citizens have children, those children are raised by American citizens, with respect for our laws and our traditions. Not by people who are only here for the money, who may have no respect for our nation or its people. That's the reason that citizenship was never made easy ... it had to be earned. You had to prove yourself to our government and to the rest of us. Don't trivialize what it mean to be a citizen of the United States: people want to come here for many reasons. Some of them have good reasons, and will be of benefit to society as a whole. Others may have good reasons, but are not people we want to have around. It is, after all, our country and we should get to decide who we want as neighbors. All other sovereign states on this ball of rock reserve the same right: I don't understand the hypocritical attitude that says that America has to accept anyone (I'm not saying that's your attitude, just that it's a prevalent one, and a very dangerous one.)

It is important to note that that system worked extremely well for a very long time, a couple of centuries, in fact. Most of our recent problems have come about because certain highly-placed people (Congress, are you listening?) dicked around with a functioning immigration system, and allowed people into this country that never would have made it to first base under the old system. They also dicked around with some other equally-important aspects of our society, things that the Founders felt were important. Say, independence from the economies of other nations. Copyrights. Patents. The list isn't endless but it is extensive, however those are arguments for another day.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

She wasn't 19 years old, but why are you bringing this up?

Re:We need more

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Because your personal version of independent thinking is no more than a second pack of lemmings.

Re:We need more

[Das Modell]

I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought, here. Because Mohammed's wife was nine years old, it means that I'm not capable of independent thinking? Really, you're not making much sense.

Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

There's a simple solution to the H-1B visa problem: Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa. Vancouver in the same time zone as Silicon Valley, only a 2 hour flight away, and has a lower cost of living than any large city on the US west coast. Add to that two great universities, a moderate climate, and some of the best skiing in the world, in addition to all the usual amenities of a large city, and it's no surprise that Vancouver is routinely rated as one of the best places to live in the world. What are all you guys waiting for?

(This post brought to you by I-want-a-job-and-don't-want-to-move-to-California. )

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[loconet]

"Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa."

Guaranteed a visa "maybe", but not a job related to their profession. Like many others in Canada, I've had my share of chats with PhDs driving cabs.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[JimBobJoe]

a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa

Which is not strictly speaking untrue, but Canada's immigration system is notorious for being slow.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[scott_karana]

Vancouver's got the second highest cost of living in Canada, behind Toronto. If it's cheaper than the States, I feel sorry for you.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[nermaljcat]

A colleague of mine is going to do this. He is not eligible for a US visa because he doesn't have a degree. So he'll just stay in Canada operating as a separate company. Charging a US company for services, paying Canadian taxes, buying Canadian consumables...

Unfortunately, the US immigration policy does not account for outsourcing. Rejecting skilled workers (more often than not) has a negative impact on the US economy.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[kevin lyda]

Google has offices in Toronto and Montreal.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

"Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa."

Guaranteed a visa "maybe", but not a job related to their profession. Like many others in Canada, I've had my share of chats with PhDs driving cabs.

If you have a job offer related to your profession, then you are indeed guaranteed a job related to your profession. If you come to Canada on the basis of a job offer for a job which you don't want, well, you get what you deserve.

There are absolutely highly skilled immigrants who are not able to get jobs which utilize their skills; but they are generally those who entered Canada as refugees or were sponsored by family members, not those who entered the country with a job offer.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

Google has offices in Toronto and Montreal.

And in Waterloo, if you happen to be a wireless developer (gee, I wonder why Google is hiring wireless developers in RIM's home town?). But judging by the jobs on offer, it seems like Google's Canadian offices are small and mostly sales and marketing, not anything really technical or related to Google's core operations.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Tablizer]

There's a simple solution to the H-1B visa problem:

What "problem"? There is no problem, only companies who want to pay C wages for A workers (or D wages for C workers). Microsoft, one of the biggest visa lobbyists, is also one of the pickiest. Coincidence? I think not.

Open offices in Canada, where a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa.

Why would Canadians want to work in the US when the wage differences are negligable? Sure, there might be a few, but 3rd world workers really want the big cost-of-living differential.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[tbo]

(This post brought to you by I-want-a-job-and-don't-want-to-move-to-California. )

As a Vancouverite who's now living in California (in the Bay Area), I can tell you it's not a hard transition. Yes, the Sierras are farther away than the Coast Mountains (it's always nice being able to see the mountains from your window), but Yosemite is really, really amazing. Other pros are the availability of good, cheap Mexican food, and a better subway system (BART beats SkyTrain, although Vancouver's buses are pretty good). Cost of living isn't really much higher, either--Vancouver's done some serious catching up there, unfortunately.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

Why would Canadians want to work in the US when the wage differences are negligable? Sure, there might be a few, but 3rd world workers really want the big cost-of-living differential.

You misunderstand. Workers who can't get US visas could work for the same company in Canada instead -- if the company has offices in Canada.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

It's always nice being able to see the mountains from your window

It's also nice to be able to see trees -- by which I mean forests of 50m tall Cedars, Hemlocks, and Douglas firs, not puny 3m high shrubbery.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[creativeHavoc]

SHHHHHHH! One of the main reasons it's so good up here is idiots don't know about the place. You start making it sound good and stuff, and who knows who might show up. Edited: No work in Canada, the west coast is horrible, there are no beautiful trails, Vancouver isnt a marvel of a city, and we don't recruit the smartest minds in the country to the 3 amazing universities that we don't have (nor do we have several other successfull smaller universities within hours drive.) We don't have one of the best climates, neither is it one of the most diverse in the world. Our weed isn't better and our health care costs an arm and a leg, just like yours. We arn't accepting and you won't have the time of your life if you ever come visit us. I would also like to point out that Vancouver isn't the home to the two top professional teams in Canada. See, if you do it like that ^^ you at least have a sarcasm filter...

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Paulrothrock]

There are tech companies all over the place. I live in Lancaster, PA and I work for Mapquest.

You don't have to live in a place where 1200 square foot houses cost $500,000 to get a great job with a company somebody's heard of.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Paulrothrock]

SHHHHHHH! One of the main reasons it's so good up here is idiots don't know about the place.

I feel the same way about my town (Lancaster, PA). I say where I live and anybody who doesn't know about it automatically thinks it's Amish country. That means less jerks on my roads, in my bars, and waiting in line at the grocery store.

And the best part is that I'm surrounded by fundies who think that they'll get possessed by demons if they venture into the city, so they avoid it like the plague.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Tablizer]

You misunderstand. Workers who can't get US visas could work for the same company in Canada instead -- if the company has offices in Canada.

If location didn't matter, then they'd offshore to the cheaper 3rd-world.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

If location didn't matter, then they'd offshore to the cheaper 3rd-world.

Unlike most third-world countries, Canada is (a) in the same time zones as the USA, (b) close enough that workers can easily fly in for meetings, and (c) has a population which speaks English fluently (except for some regions of Quebec).

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Acer500]

a skilled worker who can speak English and has a job offer is practically guaranteed a visa. Vancouver in the same time zone as Silicon Valley, only a 2 hour flight away, and has a lower cost of living than any large city on the US west coast. I recently went to Canada and I loved it, I'm thinking of emigrating there.

I have been looking into the Skilled Worker program, which I would qualify for, I've been told it'll take a year to a year and a half to process my application (I haven't submitted one yet).

Would it be better (or faster) to apply for a job and try to get a visa that way? I've seen hundreds of job ads for positions I'd be qualified to fill.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/index.html

Sorry for turning this into a mini-Ask Slashdot :)

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[wolf31o2]

Yes, but it also has Canadians.

*grin*

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[atomic777]

This is not true. While Canada is certainly closer in wages to the US than, say, India, there is still a significant difference, especially for high-education jobs, that lures talent away.

I am a Canadian working the in US purely because I can get paid anywhere from 1.5-2x the salary for the same work. Not to mention there are more jobs. The only reason there aren't more Canadians working in the US is that we are famously stubborn and working in the US is akin to selling your soul. Well, America, you have my soul, and I'm happier (and wealthier) for it. Luckily for us, we do get a bit of a pass on the H1-B restrictions and have our own special TN-1 visa (that is not subject to yearly limits), but it would be nice if the US and Canada would be more like the EU and have a much more open job market between them.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[kidcharles]

Don't forget the health care system, which takes the burden off of the company for providing health insurance for its employees. I'm sure the taxes are higher there as a result, but I imagine it is a net savings in the end compared to the extremely high cost of health care in the U.S.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[HellsAngel]

Got some tips on how I can find companies willing to sponsor working visas in Canada?

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[cperciva]

Would it be better (or faster) to apply for a job and try to get a visa that way? I've seen hundreds of job ads for positions I'd be qualified to fill.

Apply for a job, but be prepared to not get it. Canadian law says (approximately) that a job can only be given to someone from outside of Canada if the employer has tried and failed to find a qualified Canadian. Fortunately this is applied rather vaguely; it's quite common that when an employer decides that they want to hire someone from outside of Canada, they (a) decide that they didn't need to fill the position which they were originally advertising, and (b) invent a new position which they need to fill, which has astonishingly specific requirements.

In short, you need to convince a company that they want to hire you; not necessarily that you should be hired for a particular job which they're advertising.

Re:Open offices in Canada!

[Acer500]

In short, you need to convince a company that they want to hire you; not necessarily that you should be hired for a particular job which they're advertising. Thanks to both for your replies. Unfortunately, I don't think I have such specific in-demand skills to make an employer go that much out of the way (unless they're really short on MS-trained comp-sci graduates), I'll try the slow and safe route :)

Re:US?

[bobbozzo]

How do I get one of them batchelor's degrees??

Re:What is a degree worth?

[illegalcortex]

You're a little late to the party, Sherlock. I'm not sure which is worse, the misspelling or you missing the fact that the fourth and fifth posts already pointed that out.

Re:US?

[eln]

My company has a fairly large presence in India. Recently, one of our India employees came to the US for a few weeks to work with us. He mentioned that working in India, he could expect to work for 10 years before he could afford to buy a house. However, if he were to work in the US, he could afford a home in India after only 2 years of work. If I were an Indian, I would want to work in the US too.

This is a great idea...

[Chmcginn]

The profits from the visa auctions could be used to retrain/pay unemployment for the workers getting replaced. Just like the 'lotteries paying for school' thing all those states do. And we know they'd never, ever raid that cash for other stuff... right?

Re:US?

[eht]

Apparently well over twice as many people as we'll even begin to look it.

And that doesn't even count the people who took too long to submit their forms.

Why not just auction them?

[Animats]

Put them on eBay, a new batch every week, and make the Government some money. Then we'd find out what the real demand is.

Re:US?

[tftp]

Here :-)

E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[Fex303]

Just thought I'd mention the E-3 visa for any Australians that happen to be reading this and want to work in the US. It's a handy little visa specifically for Aussies who can find work in a 'specialty occupation' (jobs which require a degree) in America.

There's practically no demand for them at the moment which makes it much easier to get them, since they'll never use up the maximum allotment per year (10,500). The application process is a pain in the ass (I'm here on one), but I imagine that's the case with all visas. If you're interested, I found this FAQ rather helpful.

For the record, this came out of the recent FTA between the USA and Australia. So at least we got something of it.

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[nermaljcat]

The E-3 visa is great. And your spouse can also work (even in a non-specialty occupation).

It is even better than the TN visa for Canadians. If only it applied to non-Australians without a degree working in specialty occupations... :-D

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[Lewisham]

You don't happen to know of an equivalent for UK citizens do you? It seems that I'm not eligible for the green card lottery, and I haven't found a UK-specific visa like the E-3 for Aussies.

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[nermaljcat]

I'm not sure if there is a special UK visa. I think it is just the H-1B.

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[Builder]

The only thing that even comes close is an L1, but that requires that you work for a company with a presence in the UK and the US for at least 1 year, and then have an offer to work for that same company in the US. And it's non-trivial to get, unlike the E3.

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[dean.collins]

No we got the e3 because we supported the war on terror in such a big public way, i almost felt guilty considering applying for one of these because of the FUBAR in the middle east.

having said that ....I got approved on a L2 as my spouse is on a L1.

it's interesting seeing how difficult it is to apply to a H1 knowing that the 10,5000 E3's didn't even come close to all being applied for last year (I think i heard through the NY Advance group that they filled about half of them).

I guess aussies are smart enough to know that they are on a good thing back home (lol- yes I like living here in New York but I love living in Sydney).

Cheers,
Dean
www.collins.net.pr/blog

Re:E-3 Visa - Something for the Aussies

[ashitaka]

The Canadian equivalent is the TN-1.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[nermaljcat]

Doesn't apply to Australia either. But technically the Australian visa is an E3 (just another kind of H-1B).

65000 is far too many visas

[rwwyatt]

The requirement for a degree in any CS profession is artificial. My degree is in Chemistry, and yet I work as a software engineer. My job isn't especially hard, and certainly two trained monkeys could do it.

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[rickytickytavi]

Your statement is not true. Individuals like you who gets these jobs are the reason so many softwares are hacked into. You think that coding is just putting a bunch of statements together without regard to design. Which is why companies are seeking visa candidates cause they can actual develop organized code however, people like you aren't really getting the job done. then tne rest of them can't do the math (which is why you got the job) to get the computer science degree. It would be just as easy to get a degree in chemistry then become a software engineer.

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[Jahz]

The requirement for a degree in any CS profession is artificial. My degree is in Chemistry, and yet I work as a software engineer.
My job isn't especially hard, and certainly two trained monkeys could do it. And I'm sure that if I practiced enough and studied enough text books, I could work as a crappy chemist too. What's your point? A CS degree requirement is not artificial. There is a good deal of non-trivial theory that a degree holder is expected to have a good handle on. Sure, its possible to script and write moderately complex programs without take Theory of Computation, Algorithms, OO Design, Programming languages, etc. Perhaps you don't need a grasp of graph theory or an understanding of why P=NP is important. However, when you get into anything sufficiently complicated, I believe a well-trained CS major will have a very strong advantage over you. But then again you're admittedly doing work that "a monkey" could do (boring), so it isn't anything a respected programmer would want to touch.

In all the jobs I have had, I learned new skills, languages and methodologies. That is one of the benefits of working in a leading-edge field. Of course its possible to jump right in learn "how to program", but I contest that doing so will result in a shaky foundation, at best. My education continues at work, it didn't start there. If you find the *right employer*, most of your work will be challenging, and occasionally rewarding. I'm sorry that you chose the wrong major for yourself.

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[Zader]

A CS degree requirement is not artificial. There is a good deal of non-trivial theory that a degree holder is expected to have a good handle on. I agree with the second (in that a technical education of some variety is important, although I know this isn't what you really meant), but don't necessarily agree that a CS degree is predominant. Experience plays a bigger role when you have a good core staff since so much of what is taught in school isn't necessarily relevant to what works in the real world. I won't go so far as to say 4 years of education is a waste of time, but 4 years of equivalent on the job experience was far more valuable. (No more of this silly "assume a spherical cow falling from the top of a building" type of nonsense - real problems are far more interesting, which IMO the college system leaves most grads utterly unprepared for.) Theory is fine as a basis for understanding but it's not the only thing that matters.

The recent CS grads we've been hiring tend to think they know it all the minute they walk in the door, yet don't understand why it's not a good idea to spool up a JVM with a 1 gig memory min memory model every minute in cron just to check and see if a file exists. These are the same chuckleheads who had a very major project get canned recently since they could discuss the abstract concepts but couldn't actually troubleshoot the code they were writing -- because for all the buzzwords they didn't really understand how computers in general or the hardware architecture they were running on work. Java - the great write once, debug everywhere programming model... but I digress.

But then again you're admittedly doing work that "a monkey" could do (boring), so it isn't anything a respected programmer would want to touch. What color is the sky in your world? It must be a nice place, but this is the planet "Earth". You sometimes have to do what pays the bills to support yourself and your family. As a sysadmin I get to come in and clean up the messes that our developers (CS degrees and otherwise) leave behind. Being the zookeeper is just part of my job -- it pays the bills, and I've been a unix admin for just shy of 20 years now. Besides, somebody has to take responsibility for the code monkeys since they tend to perch on the edge of their cubicles and sling poo when left to themselves otherwise... :-) I have some fun projects at work -- like designing and implementing an enterprise storage and backup infrastructure for ourselves and one of our major customers -- but being a zookeeper is a necessary evil.

I'm sorry that you chose the wrong major for yourself. Go back 25-30 years and look at the course offerings and then lets discuss exactly the relevance of a CS degree back then on where technology is today. If I were to do it all over again, I might have gone the EE route instead of math/physics. The EE's I work with have a firm grasp on how computers actually work since they have to understand the low level fundamentals. Unfortunately a lot of the new CS types (at least that I've met recently) don't. Frankly though, I'm happy with both my degree path and my profession. Diversity in backgrounds makes for a more creative group in general even if IT is our core company focus.

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[Jduv]

Alright genius, riddle me this. I got this question when interviewing with Google.

You have 1 million distinct seven digit phone numbers. You have to store them in 2MB of RAM.

How would you do this optimally? Can you sort them? In what time can you sort them?

Hacking php or having Visual Studio 2005 write all your ASP.NET/C# code for you does not constitute being proficient in Computer Science. My theory class at Georgia Tech was hard as hell, and I loved every minute of it. In order to function in my current research job I need to understand all sorts of concepts such as: statistics, information theory, complex geometry, graph theory, digital signal processing, and many other purely mathematical concepts.

Pardon the flame, but I get intense when people call CS easy. I usually reference some of the machine learning related research papers I'm currently reading, and that usually shuts people up pretty quick.

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[Afecks]

A little full of yourself eh?

I'm a programmer making six figures a year. I dropped out of high school then I majored in CS and dropped out of that. I never even completed a single credit. So please don't tell me CS degrees aren't overrated and generally not needed. The only reason employers request a degree is because they are too lazy (read: not cost effective) to actually interview their employees and test their skills prior to hiring them. So you're pretty much screwed unless you make a name for yourself or start your own company. So please don't act like a CS is some magical piece of paper that is the only way to obtain programming knowledge. Just because you were too lazy to go to the library or read some PDF's. Did you think finite math books are only available at the campus book store?

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[slowhand]

Yep, You too can be a highly skilled HTML programmer. No money down, in fact I will send YOU a check for the amount of Harvard tuition for 1 year, plus living expenses for 1 year. You may deposit the check, and send me a check for 1/2 of the amount as the class is covered by H-1b Nigerian rebate, so I must use this moneys to reclaim education funds left in limbo after the infamous dance-dance revolution. I'll need a visa number to validate your address, and a susial secutity number to process your application...

Re:65000 is far too many visas

[rwwyatt]

The arrogance demonstrated in this thread is amazing. I see many graduates in Computer Science who are not proficient in the design, and fail basic logic. Your faulty logic has already been shown in this thread. I am actually quite proficient and indeed contribute to several of the standards committee. Too many engineers are constrained by the current technology and fail to dream beyond. I am proficient in C, and C++ along with higher level languages such as Java.

speling errors? wheeere?

[freaker_TuC]

Never seen a Bitchalor before ? ;)

Hope you don't make (too many) errors, getting people nagging on your back like that, it'd be a shame for living not?
And yes, there may be errors in this reply, since I'm not native English speaking and I'm human so I'm supposed to make errors...

Re:US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who would want to work in the US anyway? Better off heading to Europe. Not really. It is much easier to live in the US. For one thing, as an immigrant myself, and inspite of the constant rants about racism I've heard, I have found that as long as you avoid some of the more obvious states (the Bible belt comes to mind), racism and bigotry are rare in the US. I know for a fact that Germany is NOT a place where non-westerners would be as welcome as in ANY place in the US. Same goes for the Scandinavian countries where political parties gain power based on the single issue of keeping foreigners out. Aside from England, I don't know of any European country that is remotely as attractive as the US for a potential immigrant (and England is a rather ghetto version of the US at this point in history). France is a bit of a joke frankly (as far as immigration by non-westerners is concerned, they're as cosmopolitan as hilbillies :P).

No, I think it's safe to say that the US always has been and always will be the place where people immigrate to. Unless of course the people here develop the disease of meaningless nationalistic jingoism like the rest of the banana republics in the world. Oh wait...

slight correction and amendment

[sethawoolley]

s/I'll/It'll/

The proceeds should go to transporting poor families from places where they aren't highly skilled to those places where manual labor is needed.

They won't have Television to entice them into debt, but at least they'll now be able to afford the food or have enough space to do their own subsistence farming to survive.

Let's start with families on welfare while we're at it.

Re:US?

[edwardpickman]

Apparently most of the world wants to work here since large numbers apply for work and come here illegally. I've had a lot of friends who are English, Dutch, French, ETC. Most of them complain about the US and talk about how much better it is in their home country. Funny they still live and work here so it doesn't help their argument. It's hardly perfect but there must be some pluses since so many fight hard to get and stay here. I have an Australian friend that decided to go back. He stuck it out for 9 months and mostly stayed that long because it took him that long to earn the money to come back. He found he could earn nearly twice as much here for the same job and he had access to more things here. He still likes to boast of Australia but I haven't heard him talk about moving back since his trip back. It's not knocking other countries, I love Europe personally, it's like voting with your dollars in a sense. If it's so awful here why do you want to live here and a hell of a lot of people do want to live here.

Time to change visa system

[iamacat]

The idea that visas are allocated to help big companies recruit cheap workforce is ridiculous for many reasons, including the fact that government should help (as in maintain opportunities to succeed) individuals rather than corporations. Let companies work with local universities instead. On the flip side of the coin, a job is the least of the reasons most people (including me) come to US. Rather, it's a milder form of political asylum. Maybe you will not be killed for your beliefs, race or personality traits, but your government or countrymen are sure going to make your life miserable. Think of widows in India, second children in China or people who dislike killing other people (fight in Chechnya war) in Russia. If such individuals lose their jobs even for a month while on H-1, they get kicked out of the country where they discovered value of freedom, bought a house, have a girlfriend...

A partial solution would be simply to have a longer time to find another job. I guess a country can afford only so many unemployed people or new immigrants in general at a time. A better long term solution would be to create an international agency that helps people resettle in some country - not necessarily US - where they will not be killed or harassed. In any case, basing visa quote on what Microsoft says it needs seems ridiculous.

The DHS says these numbers are too low

[btarval]

This H1-B Visa issue limit is pretty much of a scam. Cisco for one uses tons of L1-B's from Wipro to by-pass this restriction regularly. I imagine that others do too.

Add to this the fact that there's really no effective enforcement going on, this "limit filled in one day" just reeks of political fodder to push for more Visas.

Surprisingly, there are indeed some actual real numbers published on the number of H1-B admissions into the U.S., from the Department of Homeland Security. These numbers appear to confirm that there are a lot more H1-B's entering the country than the Visa limit would suggest.

The DHS document (The 2005 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics) is at: http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/year book/2005/OIS_2005_Yearbook.pdf

I'm quoting the following from a discussion on dice.com at: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=49 2&tstart=15

"Temporary workers and Trainees:" Specialty Occupations(H-1B):

YEAR - H-1B visas Admitted
1996 - 144,458
1997 - 240,947
1998 - 302,421
1999 - 355,065
2001 - 384,191
2002 - 370,490
2003 - 360,498
2004 - 386,821

There are a number of other excellent quotes on the above thread on Dice. It's well worth reading.

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[transonic_shock]

Those are not new H1bs. Thosee numbers include reapplications/renewals that H1bs have to do after first 3 years and then every year at the end of six years while their green cards are being processed. Plus you have to figure in all the post-docs/professors/research staff being hired by universities.

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[TeckWrek]

The answer you are looking for is in the DHS document that you linked to. The table 26 on page 64 (where you picked the yearly number from) specifies in the header 'Non Immigrant Admissions (I-94 only)....'. The H1B visa has a maximum validity of 6 years. New visas are issued every year, but the ones issued in previous years (up till last 6) are still valid. All those people can go in and out of the country. Each time they do so, they are issued a new I-94. As a keen eye and some basic analysis will prove to you, the numbers increase every year, as they are cumulative for the last 6. Nothing more sinister here than the lack of understanding of the numbers. You know.. lies, damn lies and statistics.

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[btarval]

The point remains that people are being mislead by the common suggestion that there's a limit of 65,000 H1-B's in the U.S.. Indeed, you mentioned some of the loopholes used to by-pass it. And there are many other loopholes, such as the L1-B's, which adds even more.

These numbers are staggering; and it's no wonder why new C.S. students find it discouraging to enter the field in the U.S..

It's also interesting that the last number available in the DHS publication is also strikingly close to the number of 400,000 that Bill Gates was pushing for recently (after his original proposal of limiting the restrictions).

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[transonic_shock]

there is limit on new h1bs (65000+20000). it is that simple. that doesn't mean that at any time there will be only 65000 h1bs working in the US. and l1s are an altogether differnet matter from h1bs...and so irrelevant to the ongoing discussion.

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[The Cydonian]

First of all, it's all become a huge scam now; most of the H1-B's are now being filled by bodyshops and such.

Second, because there are only a limited number of visas to go around, there are many who would apply for a H1-B "just in case" (via the bodyshop route). So it's becoming more of a good-to-have credential that you can show to a potential employer, rather than a legal necessity for working in the US.

Third, quotas are absolutely stupid and, politics apart, I don't see a single good reason for the US to persist with it. Singapore, a much smaller country and reputedly more authoritarian, has mostly done away with quotas; you can now waltz in to the city-state with a call-letter in hand, and your application will be processed in a day at the maximum.

The rest of the world is opening itself up; just as for capital and goods, restrictions on free movement of labour are fast withering away in this part of the world. It is the US that still persists with an arcane immigration control system. I mean, really, I was shocked two days back when a friend told me you need a lawyer to process your immigration status update in the US. Here in Singapore, all I needed was a morning at the Immigration Control Authority to process my permanent residency.

Re:The DHS says these numbers are too low

[Squirmy McPhee]

Second, because there are only a limited number of visas to go around, there are many who would apply for a H1-B "just in case" (via the bodyshop route). So it's becoming more of a good-to-have credential that you can show to a potential employer, rather than a legal necessity for working in the US.

Um, no. An individual cannot apply for an H1-B visa, only the sponsoring employer can. That is, you have to find a job before the visa application is submitted by your potential employer. Once you have the visa it is valid only for work with the sponsoring employer, so it is useless as a "good-to-have credential" in finding other work -- if you want to change jobs, your new employer has to get you a new visa.

As for the "bodyshop" route, the H1-B is intended for "specialty occupations" that require at least a 4-year degree, and while "bodyshops" (I assume you mean what most Americans call temporary empolyment agencies) certainly do exist for such occupations, they are the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore, while I'm aware of no provisions prohibiting temp agencies from sponsoring H1-B visas, I rather suspect that for most positions they would have a difficult time making a successful case for one (though I could be wrong). Plus, given the fees charged for a visa application and the nature of the temporary employment industry, I suspect they would have to be pretty desperate before they would consider sponsoring H1-Bs.

Way out..

[univgeek]

Pick the H1B candidates according to salary. The people with the highest salaries get H1Bs first. The market will ensure that H1B's go to the candidates most in demand. Spread the cap over every month, with a backlog. This way, companies know the minimum that has to be paid as salary to get a H1B employee.

Also IMO, a lot of this demand is drive by the Indian IT companies - TCS, Infy, Wipro, etc. They have HR teams who apply for as many of their employees as might be required to go onsite in the next year. And since a normal company can't usually afford to apply for, and hire, a person 5 months ahead of his possible entry into the US, the Indian IT companies are making hay.

There are also students who are on their OPT who can apply for a H1B and work on their OPT until they get their H1Bs. These two'd probably be the biggest sets of applicants.

This leaves a lot of companies in the US which might like to bring someone in on a H1 in an impossible situation.

I'm an Indian, in India, and not going for a H1 any time soon. But I've seen a lot of my friends having problems because of H1. And the visa situation and general atmosphere after 9/11 was partially what made me come back after my MS.

Re:Way out..

[akintayo]

I think you'll find demand is not that closely tied to salary. Someone working in a high cost of living area is going to earn more than someone in a lower cost of living area, regardless of demand. Likewise the pay in some fields are going to be higher, even if the demand isn't. Simply put, a real estate consultant is going to make more than a software developer.

Re:Way out..

[Cowboy Bill]

Excellent Points!

Re:Way out..

[metlin]

Pick the H1B candidates according to salary.

Not a good idea. Especially because the cap applies to *all* industries, not just CS/IT. And no two industries pay the same.

Someone working in silicon valley for a software company will probably make way more than someone working as a physicist in Wisconsin or doing biotech research in the Carolinas.

So, you end up with the high-paying industries attracting more and more skilled workers, while the smaller industries (which also need skilled people but have a shortage locally here in the US) being affected adversely.

Re:Way out..

[univgeek]

Right, so scale according to the median salary by region and job profile, and then award visas to the highest paid.

Almost anything is better than the way it is now. At least companies/people who are really needed will be able to make it in. As opposed to only those who can afford to wait for 6 months being able to get in.

And this will avoid the argument that companies take in H1B candidates only because of lower wages.

This would probably make it more difficult for my friends who want to get work and go to the US. But I think it'll make it more fair than it is today.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[Tablizer]

My guess is that the US govt is trying to steal China and India's intellectual capital.

It's that Duck & Lentil Curry recipe they're after. That's where the real profits are.

Re:US?

[liuyunn]

well good for him
Folks here in the midwest still take 30 years to pay off their mortgage. Maybe we should start thinking about moving to India.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[TeckWrek]

As an H1B holding Indian working in the US, I can tell you for a fact that the assertion you make (really your lawyer) is completely and utterly false. The cap applies to the entire world. There are other visa types that you can come to the US under, but if its the H1B you are interested in, the cap applies.

If your lawyer doesn't know this or is feeding you misinformation for whatever reason, you should look into taking your business elsewhere.

Re:US?

[Tablizer]

Who would want to work in the US anyway? Better off heading to Europe.

Europeans don't tolerate threats to their career the same way Americans seem to, and cap the visas lower. Europeans take labor unions seriously, while Americans shun them. Unions have a bad rap in the US because they've gotten carried away and created silly rules that companies have to follow. It may take a generation or two before the stigma wears off and/or unions don't keep making the same mistakes.

Re:First post!

[Tablizer]

batchelor's degrees? shouldn't this be bachelor's degree?

That's for an expert in writing nightly batch scripts for database updates and virus scans.

"Visa Cap"?

[Tablizer]

Is a "Visa Cap" that tin-foil hat for those of us paranoid of free trade? After the rotton 2001-2003 IT season, I think I own 3.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[locus_standi]

I know for a fact that the cap _does_ apply to Indians and Chinese. Your lawyer is either incompetent or he is misleading you for whatever reason.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[akintayo]

I think what you are think of is that India, China and other 'over-represented' countries have a special line for permanent residency.

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

Scotland - we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world. There's a hell of a lot less racism here than in England (as far as you can tell by the news anyway) and there's a lot of open space for people to enjoy if they're looking for that sort of thing.

batchelor's?!?! SERIOUSLY?!

[nilbog]

I herd it's prety difikult to get a batchelor's

Give us your...

[mwvdlee]

Give us your rich, your lucky, your highly educated masses longing to be exploited...

Re:Give us your...

[CRCulver]

Hmm, maybe the selection of immigrants by lottery will make American an increasingly lucky country, just like Larry Niven's tongue-in-cheek hypothesis in Ringworld that through a birthright lottery evolution would select for luck and eventually human beings wouldn't have to fear any accident.

Re:US?

[Rakishi]

Instead in Europe the government creates the silly rules that companies need to follow.

numbers, numbers

[l3v1]

I have to say, that I'm not American, but I'd like to work in the US, but sorry, I don't have a "batchelors" (funny stuff :) , instead I have a phd.

IMHO, these numbers limiting the legal work visas/year are just ridiculous. For two main reasons. Countless numbers of illegal aliens flow into the US every year, yet their main concern is limiting the number of people who want to work legally and pay taxes. Then, no matter how low or high you put that limit, there will always be more requests than places. Solutions ? I don't really think we - or, more correctly, you - could find an easy one. One of them might be not to put a limit but try to judge every application and try to select, but this also wouldn't work since there are only so much people at USCIS whu can process visa applications. Besides, the whole thing just s*cks, since there are no guarantees you get a job you might fit into, since the best they can tell you is you'll get the job if the gods and uscis want it too.
 

Re:numbers, numbers

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been on a software development team in the US that over the last five years has hired 8 foreign workers from Indian, Pakistan and China. It is very hard to get a measure of a programmer's skills. As it turns out, none of those that we brought in know how to bit twiddle (mask, shift, etc.) or how a hashtable works. (These basics I assumed would be covered by their degree, so I didn't ask in the interview; my mistake) When the new hires came in, we gave them a task that should take about a day, then gave them about a week to do it. After two weeks, we started to question more aggressively about what was going on, assuming they were lost in the big picture of our big, ugly, complex project. Nope, in most cases, they didn't understand what we had asked them to do, and didn't come back asking questions. The communication is just so different than what we are used to, that we can't detect when something is going wrong. Even then it is often months before we figure out the the real misunderstanding (in this case that they didn't understand bit twiddling and had spent days with floating point math libraries to isolate bits instead of using a mask).

I realize that there are quality foreign workers. I have met some, but it is very difficult to identify them, due to the communication barriers. I can normally sniff out a fellow American's skills in about 20 minutes.

Joe

Re:numbers, numbers

[l3v1]

Fight for something, instead of leaving the mess behind

No offence, but easy thing to say from where you stand. Besides, you think that everyone who wants to work in the US also wants to live there forever ? I highly doubt that. Besides, I wasn't talking about immigration, I was talking about legal work in the US. I feel very good in Europe, thankyouverymuch, and I'd like to continue living here. I also have the opportunity to travel a lot, but that's not common. Then, when I say I'd also like to work in the US for a while (since this is the only reasonable way to spend a longer time in another country unless you're filthy rich), you say I should stay put. Well, to how many of those tens of thousands of indian and chinese visa workers you tell the same, stay home and fix your country ? How many countries have _you_ fixed - oh, wait... ?

Re:US?

[The Great Pretender]

"we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world"

Unless you're English. Try moving to Scotland at the age of ten from England. It's funny how a much crap the Scottish can dish out because they're indoctrinated at an early age by their parents that anyone/thing from England must be the devil in disguise and out to beat the Scotsman while they're down. At 23 I left and came to the US.

Re:US?

[cheater512]

Open your eyes. We are down under but we are bloody multicultural. ;)
(Hope I gave you enough clues about what country I'm talking about)

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

Ouch, on behalf of all the non-dickheads here, sorry about that. I have a friend who was born up here but moved to England at a young age. She was teased there for being Scottish, and when she finally moved back up she had an English accent so was teased for being English. Thankfully she's a well-rounded person and has put that all behind her. My parents never indoctrinated me in anything resembling hatred of the English, but I it's an historic thing that sadly still lingers around for drunken football fans. These are the ones who teach their kids bullshit about the English but dickheads and their dickhead kids are always much more vocal than those who were brought up as good people.

Seriously though, the only thing I hate about England is that since in Scotland we basically get English TV every four years all we hear about is 1966 and how it's going to be England's time again. But thankfully that soon passes after their decidely average football team gets knocked out a few rounds in. (Scotland's team is of course decidedly shit, but we support them anyway because it's all we have)

Come visit Scotland some time if you can face coming back, there's a lot of friendly people here.

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

Ah yes, the kilt. A garment invented by an English King. That fact doesn't go down well in a pub full of Scottish football supporters. Not that it doesn't look cool and act as a chick-magnet when holidaying abroad, it's just not as much a symbol of Scottish awesomeness as most like to believe.

Green card lottery

[JackMeyhoff]

Is just a money making scam.. That is all

Re:US?

[robot_lords_of_tokyo]

Overall it's all pretty spot on. I work in Germany and have a couple of Indian and Turkish co-workers, and they don't seem to have any problems as the've integrated to the point where they are more or less German. There is however quite a bit of hostility against immigrants who immigrate and end up not being able to find work for years, which ends up creating artifical barriers to integration. From what I've seen, westerners are just fine with non-westerners coming over and working in their guest country.

Re:US?

[zrobotics]

Well yes, but you can 'buy' a house after <10 years of work. It might not be paid off in ten years, but you can be living in your 'own' home before then.

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

Uh huh....which country are you talking about, exactly? Just because Scotland's population has a white majority doesn't mean there aren't any other ethnic groups around. Here in Dundee we have a lot of people or chinese and asian origin, lots of them are born and bred here in Scotland with parents or grandparents who emigrated to Scotland. In the shop I work in we get non-whites in every day, and Glasgow for instance has a huge asian population.

Re:US?

[RKBA]

If by "your 'own' home" you mean the bank's home, then I would agree; however, even after the mortgage is paid off it still isn't your own home. It belongs to the county and you must pay a yearly rental fee to the county for the rest of your life or they will repossess it. The county calls the rental fee "property taxes" and they can be quite high in some areas. I wonder if they have that in India?

Re:US?

[Ihlosi]

It belongs to the county and you must pay a yearly rental fee to the county for the rest of your life or they will repossess it.

That's a fairly distorted view of property tax.

The county doesn't own a thing (if they did, they could kick you out of the house any time without any legal trouble). You also don't owe them any more than the property tax (in case of a mortgage, you owe the bank a frickin' large sum, and monthly payments on top of that).

Re:US?

[SillyNickName4me]

Apparently most of the world wants to work here since large numbers apply for work and come here illegally.

Economically, it is the better deal for quite a few people. That doesn't anywhere mean they want to live in the USA however

I've had a lot of friends who are English, Dutch, French, ETC. Most of them complain about the US and talk about how much better it is in their home country.

I may not be a 'friend' of yours, but I have hadpermission to stay and work in the USA untill jan. 2002, and I let it expire out of lack of interest. I might have earned a few bucks more in the USA, but it also would have meant living in a country that can't be arsed to acually understand anything about the world around it, and that I didn't like at all. (and yes, I am aware that many people from the USA do know a bit more, but they are still the exception, esp. when compared with those who are voted into the US government)

  Funny they still live and work here so it doesn't help their argument. It's hardly perfect but there must be some pluses since so many fight hard to get and stay here. I have an Australian friend that decided to go back. He stuck it out for 9 months and mostly stayed that long because it took him that long to earn the money to come back. He found he could earn nearly twice as much here for the same job and he had access to more things here. He still likes to boast of Australia but I haven't heard him talk about moving back since his trip back. It's not knocking other countries, I love Europe personally, it's like voting with your dollars in a sense. If it's so awful here why do you want to live here and a hell of a lot of people do want to live here.

Re:US?

[terjeber]

Scotland? You are kidding right? In Glasgow the life expectancy is somewhere around the same as poor countries in Africa. The average male above age 40 has less than 30% of his own teeth left. Why would one move to Scotland?

As an immigrant living in the US, and spending a lot of time elsewhere: If you like to work and want to get ahead in the world, move to the US. You'll do well.

If you enjoy being on unemployed (and basically unemployable) on the dole, sucking the government for its last few dimes, hate working, love the fact that none of the "native" inhabitants of your new country will speak to you except for the cops, move to Europe. What is the unemployment rate of immigrants in France? 40%? 50%? And that is after the government has found "for dole" work for a large number of them.

Given the fact that the same immigrants, when they come to the US, find work, settle down, buy a house etc, this is not a problem with the immigrants but a problem with the governments of Europe.

Oh, yes, I lived the first 30 or so years of my life in Europe. I don't think I'll go back. I am writing this from Australia, perhaps my next destination.

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

I know you were being sarcastic, but come on eh? Some parts of Glasgow are pretty rough but it's also got a lot of big business too. Life expectancy in Glasgow in 2005: "Glasgow had the worst life expectancy, 72.9 years, compared to Kensington and Chelsea in London on 82.4." Not a huge surprise that the highest was in the most affluent area in the UK, where you simply don't have poor people living. 72.9 years life expectancy in a poor African nation sounds pretty good to me!

Saying the things you said about Glasgow is like me saying "Don't emigrate to the USA because there are a lot of murders every year in NYC." Please don't tar a whole country with the same brush, just because a few areas of its biggest city aren't somewhere sensible people walk in after dark. Frankly, your comments about Glaswegian men border on gross ignorance, and I find it sad to find that in a serious discussion about places to live/work (and no, I'm not new here).

Re:US?

[drsmithy]

Here in Dundee we have a lot of people or chinese and asian origin, lots of them are born and bred here in Scotland with parents or grandparents who emigrated to Scotland. In the shop I work in we get non-whites in every day, and Glasgow for instance has a huge asian population.

Indeed. One of the most surreal experiences in my recent trip through the UK was hearing an old Asian lady - not a day under 80, I'm sure - start talking in one of the thickest Scottish accents I've ever heard (the type where all you can answer with is "what ?").

This wasn't in Glasgow though. Edinburgh, I think it was.

Re:US?

[Kazzahdrane]

Come to Dundee sometime, the locals can't say the "aye" sound. Which, in Scotland, is a bit strange anyway but for them it comes out as a flat "eh", with no raised pitch at the end that might indicate "eh?". So they say "peh" for "pie", "fev" for "five", and - amusingly - "Dundeh" for "Dundee".

All leading to the hilarious phrase "Eh went to Dundeh fer a peh but eh fell and meh peh went skeh heh."

I love my country.

Relevence of CS degrees

[apodyopsis]

I agree with the parent on a number of points. A CS degree is not the most important criteria in a number of SW/IT jobs, and secondly - we all have to do work that it not enjoyable to pay the bills.

My main degree is in engineering (not CS, or EE or any even related field) but I have been a programmer for 10 years. My chosen field is firmware, mostly my work involves assembler, electronics, C and some win32 support apps. In this time I have worked with and interviewed many CS graduates who have all been largely unskilled in this field - the ones we have had have not understood resources, interrupts, reentrency, real-time or many other important factors in firmware. Yet some have behaved as though the great steaming brown mounds of code they have pumped out should be worshipped just as much as the ground apon which they have most recently walked. EE graduates have been by far the most promising recruits, though I have worked along side former carpenters, plumbers, and even car mechanics and dustbin men.

Judge someone by the skillset they possess, not some (largely meaningless) paper qualifications. Above all enforce a strict, well thought out interview regime full of relevent questions to weed out the dross.

I personally loath some of the jobs I have to do - but I recognise that any job is not all 100% coding and I accept that any project life-cycle will require some more boring jobs. As a respectable programmer I just get on with it to the best of my ability.

Re:US?

[narf501]

Wrong. The US Supreme Court made a decision that anyone's property can be condemned and be made part of a private business at anytime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_L ondon

This case shows that a county can take property from one landowner and give/sell to another landowner at will. You live in the property you "own" only at the whim of the county and state.

Re:US?

[Alioth]

I went to the US to live for several years. I enjoyed it very much, and wouldn't change it for the world.

However, I'm extremely glad that I'm back home now. When I hit my late 20s, I realised that there were things that were a lot more valuable to me than the money I could earn in the US or the stuff I could buy cheaply in the US.

The US isn't awful at all, I go back and visit my friends in Houston at least once a year. But I'm so glad I moved back home. Perhaps some time in the future I'll get the urge to live abroad again, but next time I will choose a different country. Not out of dislike of the US (which I will continue to visit) but just because I've been there, and I'd want to go somewhere new.

Re:US?

[mikkelm]

Doesn't matter how long you've lived in Europe - What you're spreading is FUD.

The high unemployment rates amongst immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with the government, except perhaps that they're too generous. Most any immigrant in any Scandinavian country can live off of welfare alone, and a great many of them do. A lot of them don't even bother learning the language through -free- courses offered by the government. Not because it clashes with their work schedules, 'cause they have no jobs. Simply because they don't want to.

Now, the US isn't exactly what you'd call a "welfare state". It's much, much harder to get by in the US if you have no intention of working, and -that- is what's forcing immigrants into work.

I despise the fact that people bitch and moan about the government of my country being harsh on immigration, but Denmark *is* a welfare state. It doesn't come cheap, and it certainly isn't sustainable if people just choose not to work out of convenience. We have a lot of trouble with immigrants here. Not just employment related, either. Violence, tax evasion, apathy towards integration and countless other problems. Of course, whenever you point this out, you get drowned out by accusations of xenophobia, but the numbers are there to support it.

Denmark had a long history of being a friendly and tolerant nation for many decades in the past, but since the mid 90s, things have really gone downhill. Not because of the Danish government, which offers many more opportunities and incentives for immigrants to integrate and work than most any other country in the world, but because of the apathy towards integration, and immigrants who settle for welfare and leech from the system.

We're sorry that we can't have our doors wide open like we used to, but the immigrants who abused our system have ruined it for everyone else.

Re:US?

[Ihlosi]

This case shows that a county can take property from one landowner and give/sell to another landowner at will.

Not without compensation (which wouldn't be necessary if they owned the property in the first place). Also, there's going to be some legal wrangling about it, even if it is just about the size of the compensation (which would also be a non-issue if they truly owned the place).

Fact: The county cannot simply tell you "You're out. Bye.". They could do that if they own the place in question.

Re:US?

[Ihlosi]

and -that- is what's forcing immigrants into work.

And don't forget that governments in Europe are much, much more eager to combat illegal employment. There are no millions of underpaid, illegal workers over here.

Most illegal workers are not exploited at home.

[jotaeleemeese]

Simply there are no jobs there or the salaries are much lower and not enough to satisfy the needs of a normal family.

If you get a job sweeping streets in Mexico you will not be exploited in any way, but try making a living out of US$ 100 a month or less, and you will understand the conondrum these people face.

How many job are like that

[aepervius]

Most of the people which are hired in the IT do not need a CS degree. maybe in academia and in some private big concern research... But that is it. "a well-trained CS major" maybe can demonstrate why P=NP is important and speaks hour long about AI and DNA like design, but if it can't understand the business it will be working in, it will be no better than the average non-cs major. There is a good reason why physics, mathematic and biology people were hired in the place I work over to the exception of 2 CS major : they have a better grasp at the language used (f77) could adapt better to the business rules, and grew better optimized code than the lonely 2 CS major. Sure you can argue to hell that the 2 CS majors were crap, but my experience is that NOT THE DEGREE make the man, but the ADAPTIBILITY to the job. And it seems all the CS major I know fail more on that part than the other mentionnend study categories.

Re:US?

[blind biker]

Serious question (I have been considering Scotland since a few months): how many cycling-friendly months per year? Are there any bikepaths in the cities?

Re:US?

[mikearthur]

A lot less racism unless you are English and mention it in one of our major cities where you will probably be stabbed, robbed and left for dead.

Enjoy your stay! (Unless you are English)

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

You really think all taxes are bad and all govt is bad? Or are you whoring to get mod points?

Learn these basic things about civics. Govt, by its mere, presence adds value to your property. The general law and order, enforcement of contracts, truth-in-labeling laws, truth-in-lending laws etc foster the climate the create value. Just think, how valuable your home will be if it is wrenched out of USA and plunked smack-dab-in-the-middle of Darfar, Sudan. The property tax there is probably 0. So before you mouth off, "govt is bad and zero tax is the fair tax" just remember that it just shows how shallow your comprehension of the world is.

Re:US?

[Nimey]

Some parts of Glasgow are pretty rough

I have it on authority from a Glaswegian that Glasgow has the best stab-wound doctors in the world. ;-)

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Very true. I am an Indian American and if any immigrant group into India becomes as successful in India as Indians have been in USA, there will be riots in the streets.

Just look at the hostility shown to the South Indians (disparagingly refrred to as the Madrasees) by the people of Delhi. Or the "sons of the soil" policies advocated by Shiv Sena in Bombay which is just thinly veiled antogonism shown to the educated South Indians getting plum jobs there. Not that the South Indians are paragons of virtue. My own native place lumps all North Indians as "marwadis", though Marwar is just one district in Rajasthan. Most North Indian are businessmen but political parties paint them to be money lending Shylocks.

I will say it once more, Indian Americans household median income is around 60K$, compared to some 52K for the Whites, 45K for the blacks and 42K for the hispanics. If this happened in India, the succesful group would have been hounded mercilessly and demonized for political purposes.

Re:Shouldn't be a lottery...

[Vr6dub]

"Those would be the ones who ensure you never have to worry about affording basic groceries in Safeway."

Bullshit!! I'll pay more for my damn groceries. I'm not sure if others are prepared for it but I am. Bottom line --- they are here illegally and no amount of word or thought play can get around that fact.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Rarely I see a post on /. so right on the money as your post, (sadly) Anonymous.

You are absolutely right on France and Scandinavia. Can you imagine a US public school even in the Bible Belt, that would prohibit a girl from waring a headscarf?

I think the most tolerant country in Europe is UK.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

That is because US is supporting the current disastrous regime, which mere existence (or non-existence) causing the need to flee Iraq. Admitting them to US would be a political disaster.

Vietnam was completely different. US lost, so naturally they had to accept their supporters and prove that the winning Viet Kong party are bad, bad, bad. So, welcome to 1M Vietnamese and welcome to 466 Iraqi refugees.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

Seriously though, the only thing I hate about England is that since in Scotland we basically get English TV every four years all we hear about is 1966 and how it's going to be England's time again. But thankfully that soon passes after their decidely average football team gets knocked out a few rounds in.

Go, Portugal! Scots probably love us for knocking England's socks off on every important match :-)

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[_albertpinto]

Dude , infact Mr good for nothing ignorant A$#@#. Cap applies to everyone for H1B. Also, for green card, Indians and Chinese have the longest wait time due to the number of people applying from these two countries.

Re:US?

[GayBliss]

Apparently most of the world wants to work here since large numbers apply for work and come here illegally.

There are large numbers that apply for work and live illegally in just about every developed country in the world. Do you really think the whole world is trying to get into the US? It's a hard concept for Americans to understand, but money is not everything. In many other countries, the focus is more on happiness of the individual and the SOCIETY around them, although American greed seems to be spreading. Americans tend to think about money and themselves, and can't imagine why you wouldn't want to do the same. Of course there are plenty of people that will make money their number one priority, but their are plenty that don't.

I am an American living and working in Spain and I make less than I would in the US, and it's worth it.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

Can you imagine a US public school even in the Bible Belt, that would prohibit a girl from waring a headscarf?

Twisted view... There is nothing against the scarf in particular. The French have long prohibited all religious symbols in schools. It's a good measure. Christian crosses aren't allowed either. It's just that no Christian ever made a fuss about it...

Re:US?

[thetroll123]

>Scotland - we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world.

We're not including English visitors in this, right?

Re:US?

[tha_mink]

This case shows that a county can take property from one landowner and give/sell to another landowner at will. You live in the property you "own" only at the whim of the county and state. Wrong. Like all eminent domain cases, they don't "take" your property. They force you to sell it. You could argue that it's still unfair, and that's fine, but they can't "take" your property. Not to mention the fact that in most eminent domain situations, the government usually pays well above market value for your property. Shame on you with your FUD.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[cyfer2000]

People in India and mainland China are not allowed to enter green card lottery. I recommend you find a new layman, ah, sorry, lawyer. Countries can't participate in green card lottery include BRAZIL, CANADA, CHINA mainland-born (Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan ARE eligible), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, EL SALVADOR, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, PERU, POLAND, RUSSIA, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM and UK dependent territories (except Northern Ireland which WAS eligible), and VIETNAM.

Re:US?

[the eric conspiracy]

That's called eminent domain.

Re:US?

[muzthe42nd]

I live in Glasgow most of the year, and Perth for the rest of it, and I'm quite a fanatical cyclist.

You can find out lots of information about cycling in Scotland, and the UK in general, on SUSTRANS.

Most councils have pages on their websites that let you know about cycling. For Glasgow, this page is useful, since it gives you free maps and stuff.

I would thoroughly recommend living and cycling in Scotland. Amazing scenery really.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[anup_at_mac]

Did you know (according to my lawyer) that the cap does not apply to Indians and Chinese? Can I have some of that stuff your lawyer is smoking? Dude ... please tell me you did not actually pay this lawyer.

Re:US?

[terjeber]

Doesn't matter how long you've lived in Europe - What you're spreading is FUD.

FUD? Do you even know what FUD is? No, I am no spreading "FUD", but some may say I spread lies about Europe. I do not. I was born and raised in Norway. I have worked in several European countries, and I have been gainfully employed in the US for a good few years now. As opposed to most Europeans (and Americans for that matter), I have experience enough to know what I am talking about.

The high unemployment rates amongst immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with the government

It doesn't? Please educate me. How can it be that when a major news organization followed two groups of Somali immigrants, one settled in Europe (Germany) and one in Phoenix AZ, after one year out of Somalia, every family in the Phoenix group had at least one full-time employed member, while the group in Germany had zero employed people, full or part time. Did the US get all the "good" Somalis and Germany all the lazy shits? Unlikely. The Germans got the same Somalis, but they hadn't been able to get them work permits yet, in fact 6 months later (18 months after landing in Germany), most of them still were not allowed to work. At that stage they were all happy enough on the dole, and well on their way to doing what so many immigrants do in Europe, generate generation upon generation of unemployed children.

Why do people find work in the US? Well, because when you immigrate to the US, you work or you starve. Simple enough. You no work - you no eat.

A lot of them don't even bother learning the language through -free- courses offered by the government. ... Simply because they don't want to.

Who cares? You don't speak the language -> you don't work. You don't work -> you and your kids starve. Simple. They'll learn. Don't put them om welfare. Remember: "Nød lærer nøgen kvinde at spinde". Wise words. In an effort to be "nice" to the immigrants, those words are forgotten and the "nice" becomes a behavior that hurts both the immigrant and the host country.

I despise the fact that people bitch and moan about the government of my country being harsh on immigration, but Denmark *is* a welfare state.

Welfare for people who get into trouble in their life is good. Once they have earned it. Stepping onto Danish ground doesn't make you deserve it. The fact that the European governments not only allow, but actively encourages their immigrant population to stay on the dole is the reason Europe has an immigration problem. Well, a major reason. The second reason is that Europe in general has a no immigration policy. Europe doesn't accept any immigrants in fact, only refugees, political refugees in general. Bad idea. Stop accepting them. They don't really exist. There are perhaps 100 real political refugees in the world, the rest of the refugees are convenience refugees. Don't accept them. If someone comes to Denmark and claims political asylum, check the person against a list of known persecuted political active figures in his country (usually less than 10). If he's not on the list, put him on the next plane back to his country. If he doesn't have papers, put him on a plane back to the country his flight came in from.

Immigrants are generally good for the country. Let them in. Let them bring their family. Let them work from the day they set foot on Danish soil. If they do not have a job within 6 weeks of arriving, ship them back out. Any immigrant accepted into Denmark should be required to have an open-ended return ticket. If he can't prove that he can support him self within 6 weeks, make him use the return ticket.

Denmark had a long history of being a friendly and tolerant nation for many decades in the past, but since the mid 90s, things have really gone downhill. Not because of the Danish government

+1 Insightful ^^^^^

[pkbarbiedoll]

I would mod the parent +1 Insightful, but I'm fresh out.

All too often Americans interested in protecting their own jobs and culture are immediately and without question branded racist xenophobes. Unfortunately, there has to be a degree of truth to that for many people -- but certainly not all, and probably not even most. Throughout the world people aren't as open to unchecked immigration as we in America are led to believe.

Where is a line drawn between believing in and loving ones own country (which could be called nationalism by certain, shrill, individuals), and opening borders and allowing a country's own culture to be slowly replaced with other cultures? Hear me now -- I was taught and believe that America is like a giant salad bowl, we have a richly diverse culture here. But taken to an extreme, people who were born here and live here and work here could see their own livelihoods ruined by say, H1-B visa abuse and outsourcing.

Why should a country not protect it's own people (and jobs), within reason?

Thanks for sharing this.

Re:US?

[Marcus Green]

"There are perhaps 100 real political refugees in the world"

How do you define "real"

Background

[deblau]

The term H-1B derives from the immigration law, more precisely 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b). This post is probably tl;dr unless you're really interested.

Section 1101 is definitions. 1101(a) sets out definitions for the entire chapter on immigration, while (b) and (c) give definitions for different subchapters. 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15) defines "immigrant" as "every alien except an alien who is within one of the following classes", then lists 22 classes of "nonimmigrant aliens". For example:

• Class A covers foreign ministers, ambassadors, and public officials.
• Class C covers people who are stopping over in the US on their way to another country or the UN.
• Class K(i) covers people who are engaged and entering the country to get married within 90 days.

Class H covers aliens coming to the US to work, and is probably tl;dr for most people, but I went ahead and read it anyway. H(ii) and H(iii) apply only if the person has "a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning."*

Class H(i) sets out three types of nonimmigrant aliens:

• H(i)(b): aliens coming to the US to work in "specialty occupations" or as a fashion model**
• H(i)(b1): aliens coming to the US under the free trade agreement with either Chile or Singapore
• H(i)(c): aliens coming to the US to be registered nurses.

Admission of nonimmigrants is covered in Section 1184. 1184(i)(1) defines "specialty occupations" as those that require "theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge, and attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum." In other words, the job doesn't have to be high-tech, but it does require a college degree and some smarts. In order to be allowed into the country to practice such an occupation, 1184(i)(2) requires a nonimmigrant alien to either

• be licensed by a State to engage in the occupation (if that licensing is required),
• have an appropriate post-secondary degree, or
• have experience equivalent to a degree AND "recognition of expertise in the specialty through progressively responsible positions relating to the specialty".

The numerical limit comes from 1184(g). According to 1184(g)(1) and (g)(2) there can be up to 65,000 H(i)(b) visas granted per year and 66,000 H(ii)(b) visas, not counting spouses and children. The H(i)(b) quota was as high as 195,000, from 2001 to 2003. 1184(g)(3) says that petitions are granted first-come, first-serve. With 150,000 H(i)(b) applications for 65,000 slots, it's reasonable that the USCIS would refuse further applications.

* H(ii)(a) covers seasonal agricultural workers. H(ii)(b) covers everyone else (except foreign doctors entering to practice medicine), provided that "unemployed persons capable of performing such service or labor cannot be found in this country". H(iii) covers aliens in the US to receive (non-medical) training, if they are not training for the purpose of getting a new job.
** Doctors coming over under H(i)(b) have to meet special requirements. See 8 U.S.C. 1182(j)(2).

Re:US?

[BlueTrin]

In Soviet Europe, the unions create silly rules that the government forces upon the companies ...

Re:US?

[JavaLord]

You really think all taxes are bad

No, just most of them.

and all govt is bad?

The bigger it is, the worse it is.

Or are you whoring to get mod points? Learn these basic things about civics. Govt, by its mere, presence adds value to your property. The general law and order, enforcement of contracts, truth-in-labeling laws, truth-in-lending laws etc foster the climate the create value

These things are good, but property tax and state tax is what leads to these. You can lobby for change when it comes to those, or just move if it is that bad. Want to debate the fairness of federal taxation? Want to talk about the $25 million dollars that is being earmarked for spiniach growers in the upcoming federal budget?

Just think, how valuable your home will be if it is wrenched out of USA and plunked smack-dab-in-the-middle of Darfar, Sudan. The property tax there is probably 0. So before you mouth off, "govt is bad and zero tax is the fair tax" just remember that it just shows how shallow your comprehension of the world is.

Just because someone doesn't have the same views as yours on taxation and government doesn't mean their comprehension of the world is 'shallow'.

Re:How about students from American Universities?

[bogjobber]

Well, I sympathize with you and hope you get lucky and end up staying here. I think a great system would be to offer automatic work visas and a fast-track to citizenship for anyone who graduates from an accredited US university. A huge amount of top students from around the world (particularly Asia) get their degrees here, and it would be a tremendous advantage for us to be able to attract more talented people into immigrating. I really don't see a down side. Most of our immigrants (it seems, at least) are unskilled and uneducated. It'd be great to get more skilled workers.

Mmmmm.. more cheap labor!!!! CIO Happy!

[Proudrooster]

This is great news! No need to retrain or hire college grads! Just give us more cheap labor! Cheap labor enables us to continue to compensate our CXO officers at insanely high levels. No need to think farther that the next quarter. Cheap labor today means profit next quarter.

Makes you wonder, why couldn't we get some H1-B CIO's and CEO's :) Anyway, this is my shot for today.

A refuge from harsh economic conditions?

[pkbarbiedoll]

Tell that to the people of Detroit, MI (and many other local economies ruined by offshoring).

Health System

[Slashdot Parent]

That's to get you accustomed to their slow health care system before you arrive.

Re:US?

[DCheesi]

Yeah, I was just going to point out a bit of wisdom my old boss gave me: Racist feelings in a particular area always focus on the largest (or most visible) minority in that area. Which in the case of Scotland would obviously be the English. Other minorities usually get off easy by comparison, not counting the hard-core bigots of course.

Wrong, wrong wrong

[pkbarbiedoll]

The goal here isn't to protect America's interests, it's to further erode the middle class. Profits, sir, profits.

Marry an American

[Slashdot Parent]

Really, that's your best option. A guy I used to work with is on a Hetch Von Bee visa and thought he was going to get his Green Card years ago. I told him at the time he should just marry his American girlfriend so he could quit being a slave to my old boss, but he wouldn't listen.

Instead, he married some Indian woman and now they're both screwed. He could have been married and divorced three times by now and have his Green Card. But nooooo. No one listens to me.

Re:US?

[mikkelm]

Your post is too long for me to dissect piece by piece, so I'm just going to sum it up.

On some points you agree with me. When you don't agree with me, what you're saying is essentially that you expect the government of a country to change the way the country works to cater to immigrants. Sorry, that's not how immigration works. Immigrants integrate into the system of the country, the system doesn't change to cater to the immigrants.

The US is very different from Europe. Naturally. Comparing the US to the EU is comparing apples to oranges. We may be more compassionate and have more comprehensive social security in place, but that is how our countries work. Expecting us to change to conform to immigration is the product of an unfounded sense of entitlement. If the immigrants are incompatible with our system, then that's just too bad. We can't take in any more if it doesn't work.

As you yourself agree, immigrants themselves choose not to work. Not through any "active encouragement" as you put it. That's just bullshit. Immigrants today with alarming regularity end up on welfare, but when our doors were wide open, and immigration, integration and getting a job was *considerably* easier and government help with employment much more readily available, the same thing happened.

It's sad that a good number of immigrants decided to show their appreciation for their new country by leeching on the system, but don't for a second think that you are justified in your criticism. If the immigrants can't conform to and work with the country, then it's the fault of the immigrants, not the country. We are in no way obligated, neither by law or by morals to open our arms, embrace whoever wants to move here, and then modify how we run out country to conform to their needs.

Perhaps the immigrants should think about finding a country they appreciate and where they can actually earn their keep instead of barging in, settling down and then doing nothing but complain while sitting at home on welfare instead of being out looking for a job like the rest of us.

We gave them a chance, and they showed that they weren't compatible with our system. Surely they're better off moving somewhere else if they don't like it.

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

There is govt waste and inefficiency. But the original poster was not making a case for eradicating inefficiency. (S)he was saying things like, "you dont own property in USA because you are obliged to pay taxes which is same as not owning anything but paying rent".

The taxes you pay protect your property directly by the police force. The local govt maintains the proof that you own the property. It maintains the infrasturcture that allows you to ward off intruders and usurpers without having to resort to violent means. If you own some land in Sudan or Angola you will realize how much of a benefit it is to just live in your home without having worry if a local warlord will evict you and take over your property.

What is the value of your property? It is largely the amount someone would be willing to pay for it. And laws like truth-in-lending, fairness clauses and the thriving economy increases the buying power of people that directly enhances the value of your property.

Considering it all, see if the amount taxed from you for your property is less than the value created to you by the Government. If the tax is less than the value created by the Govt, shut up and pay it. Dont make snide comments like "paying property tax means I dont own it and I am only renting it." Making such a statement shows the shallow grasp of economics and civics.

The real numbers are too shocking

[btarval]

Yes, we're in agreement that the number of 65,000 is a flat-out deception, and that the actual number of H1-B's working in this country is vastly greater. At least 6-times greater, and more like 10 times the so-called limit of 65,000.

According to Business Week, there were "an estimated 700,000 holders of H1B and L1 visas in the U.S., and critics say the number may be closer to 1 million." (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_3 4/b3846032.htm)

This was in 2003 alone, at the very worst part of the dot-com bust. So yes, the visa limit number is a pure deception of the total number working in this country. A more honest statement would be to portay the number as 390,000. But this absurdly low number would be too shocking for the American public.

And contrary to your attempt to gloss over it, it's not that simple. Here's a quote from Wikipedia: "The actual size of the H-1B program is difficult to gauge due to exemptions from the 85,000-person quota limit. 130,497 new H-1B visas were approved in FY 2004 and 116,927 in FY 2005." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa).

The exemptions aren't nearly so clear cut as you portray them in your attempt to downplay the numbers. Read the article for some more of the exemptions. And that's not even counting the ones who overstay their Visa and remain here illegally, considering that this whole program is not policed effectively.

And again, contrary to your attempts to downplay this issue, the L1-B's are extremely relevant to this discussion. They provide yet another direct loophole to the H1-B program. It allows companies to bypass the H1-B program completely. Unless you're arguing that we should eliminate the L1-B program completely? Hmmm. Somehow I don't expect to hear you say that.

Re:The real numbers are too shocking

[metlin]

According to Business Week, there were "an estimated 700,000 holders of H1B and L1 visas in the U.S., and critics say the number may be closer to 1 million."

Umm, that's because H1Bs are granted and last for six years. So, if you have 65k + 20k granted per year, and accumulate that for six years, you get 85k * 6 = 510,000. Combine that with L1s and you get the figure you talked about.

Secondly, the numbers in your previous post are a function of MEVs - multiple entry visas. If I had a single H1B but went back to my home country and reentered the US, it gets counted as a new entry. Obviously, a lot of people will visit their home country once every few years, just so.

Also, a lot of the exemptions go towards existing H1B holders who are waiting for their green card (permanent residency), and depending on its status, their H1Bs are renewed in one or three year increments.

L1s are a different issue, but usually L1s are issued for people who are on the track to permanent residency (either they are, or their spouses are) and need an L1 for a short amount of time (2 years as opposed to six). Secondly, L1s applicants usually tend to have an American residence and take up the visa merely as a stop-gap between their H1 and green card. If the L1 numbers were anywhere as high, trust you me - the INS will clamp down on those asap.

You know, it really would help if you grasped what the figures meant before foaming at the mouth and repeating your point over and over again. I can understand that this is Slashdot and immigrant bashing is considered fair, fun and all that, but seriously. Read a little and try understanding what it's all about.

Re:The real numbers are too shocking

[btarval]

The point, which you completely missed, is that presenting the yearly number is completely misleading; and it's probably done so deliberately in order to downplay the effects of the H1/L1 visa issue. It would be more honest to present the total number allowed into the US. But that would be politically unpaletable, since it is a large fraction of the total number of unemployed in the U.S.. It's even a larger percentage of the unemployed in the IT area.

Sorry for having to keep repeating the point over and over, but some people are rather slow, and are either unable or unwilling to grasp new concepts.

I realize this is Slashdot and all, and that people constantly post without understanding what they're talking about. But seriously, if you're going to try to add to a conversation try reading and understanding what the points being made are.

Amazing!!!!!!

[macheels]

I think it is amazing how the deadline for H1-B Visa applicants is so close to the time of year many college students graduate. Hmmmm . . . Let me see, we want people in the U.S. to pursue a degree in technology related fields, yet we don't have job opportunities when they graduate.

Re:Amazing!!!!!!

[snowtigger]

That's not true.

The first (any this year the only) date to apply for an H1B is April 1st, but the worker can't enter the US to work before Oct 1st. So in order for a company to hire an H1B worker from abroad, they must hire them before April 1st, but won't be able to use them before October.

For college grads, this could work out pretty well. If you find a job right before leaving college, you can start working right away and wait for the H1B to arrive :)

65,000 jobs that didn't go to American citizens

[J.R. Random]

Thanks a lot, Congress. I hope your corporate masters paid you well, because they sure as heck aren't paying us.

You never "own" your property

[VampireByte]

I think part of his point is that you don't own your property, you own title to use it in a certain manner.

Thinking of property tax as a rental fee to the county is a bit of a twist, but do take into consideration that in some counties (like mine) it is quite substantial.

Re:US?

[JavaLord]

There is govt waste and inefficiency. But the original poster was not making a case for eradicating inefficiency. (S)he was saying things like, "you dont own property in USA because you are obliged to pay taxes which is same as not owning anything but paying rent". The taxes you pay protect your property directly by the police force. The local govt maintains the proof that you own the property. It maintains the infrasturcture that allows you to ward off intruders and usurpers without having to resort to violent means. If you own some land in Sudan or Angola you will realize how much of a benefit it is to just live in your home without having worry if a local warlord will evict you and take over your property.

That is great, and few people would argue with paying their local police force, firefighters, etc. What about the money that goes to the local schools? Or to help businesses in your hometown? Not all taxes are 'just and fair' and provide you with something as tangible as police protection. As for the police 'warding off' intruders, that is unlikely. They are a deterrent to crime, but when it comes down to it, you are much better if you have a weapon if you have to deal with an intruder then hoping the police get there in time, but that is a different issue.

What is the value of your property? It is largely the amount someone would be willing to pay for it. And laws like truth-in-lending, fairness clauses and the thriving economy increases the buying power of people that directly enhances the value of your property. Considering it all, see if the amount taxed from you for your property is less than the value created to you by the Government. If the tax is less than the value created by the Govt, shut up and pay it.

I think you are making some incorrect assumptions:

First, you assume American towns would turn into the Sudan without police protection, which is incorrect. If you've ever been to a small town in the middle of nowhere with limited social services, you would find something very different than the Sudan. On the other hand, you can find towns that pour money into their police departments and social services, yet resemble something closer to the Sudan.

Secondly, people shouldn't just 'shut up' and pay taxes. Anytime the government (or anyone) for that matter is taking money from you, you should question where it is going. 'Shut up and pay it' is the attitude that leads to abuse of power.

Dont make snide comments like "paying property tax means I dont own it and I am only renting it." Making such a statement shows the shallow grasp of economics and civics.

His position is much more reasonable than yours.

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Have you lived in another country?

Re:US?

[drewzhrodague]

However, if he were to work in the US, he could afford a home in India after only 2 years of work. If I were an Indian, I would want to work in the US too.

Shit. I am an American living in the US, and I would love to work in the US too!

industry asking for unlimited visas since 1990s

[peter303]

Who is blocking industry? I am surprised no one has successfully snuck in a "midnight admendent" (too late to delete) for unlimited visas. I am guess its a some pro-union dems looking out for american workers. When you see abuses like Circuit City and Enron, I am surprised its not worse than it is for developers.

Re:US?

[xtracto]

I love Scotland, I love their people and the place. In fact I would really love to work there, unfortunately Scotland is ruled by the which leaves you two options, 1. Try to get the "highly skilled immigrant" visa for which you need an MBA or a PhD, or 2. Try to get a company to sponsor a Work Permit. Unfortunately, in my experience UK companies wont touch immigrants with a 100 yard pole.

Personally I'm looking for a place to work after I finish my PhD in UK (as an International student), I have always been opposed to the idea of working in the USA as I really hate their international policy (and I do not want all my personal information to be disclosed the moment I am traveling there and as they see I am a Mexican the government will think I want to be a pollero or something). But, as some friends (who got their PhD's here in the UK and have now either returned to Mexico or gone to the USA to work) said, companies in the USA do not care about the origin of the person, if you are good they *will* do whatever they need to get your, whereas companies in the UK are more conservative and in some way "racist" when it comes to employing people.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Scarf is not a "religious symbol". It is a religious obligation. Can you tell a difference between "religious obligation" and "religious propaganda"?

So you are saying I should be quiet now because every other religious person is discriminated? THAT is twisted.

Christians do not make fuss over it for several reasons: first, it might be that people do not consider it obligatory to wear a cross, second, there aren't so many as deeply believing Christians in France as Muslims anymore.

Given years of vicious secularism in France, no wonder. Muslims are recent emigrants, they are new to the outrageously hypocritical attitude of French government to religion.

Re:US?

[jagdish]

Reminds me of Brad Pitt the pikey (pikeh?) in Snatch.
Ya got a good kick fer a fat fella.

Re:US?

[jhylkema]

by nighty5 (615965) Alter Relationship on Tuesday April 03, @09:08PM (#18599221)

Who would want to work in the US anyway?

Better off heading to Europe.

How is this a troll? It's the truth. Fucking right-wing mods.

Let's see here . . . what's it like to live in the U.S., with its asinine, idiotic "faith based" (read: Making scientific and public policy based upon long-discredited fairy tales comprised of mistranslations of out-of-context quotes from documents whose provenance is dubious at best, all describing events that are preposterous as being contrary to the laws of physics) approach to life? Oh my, where to begin.

-- First in the world in health care spending, yet 37th in health care outcomes. Practically speaking, this means 1/6th of the population has no access to health care at all, i.e., no insurance. The rest? Most insurance policies only cover 80% of the costs after a deductible is met, and then there are further limits and exclusions aplenty. What's 20% of the cost of your $200,000 open heart surgery? Do you have that kind of money laying around? I didn't think so. And believe me when I tell you, they are going to want it all and want it now.

-- Well behind the rest of the world in internet use and broadband penetration. Don't give me that bullcrap about "the U.S. is a huge country." Canada has more broadband penetration.

-- A people so culturally and intellectually bankrupt that it twice elected a (1) downright moron and a former actor already in late-state Alzheimer's. Both times, they were frontmen for the Machivellian sociopaths (Cheney, Bush Sr., et al) who run things from behind the scenes.

-- Continuing the above theme, a culture where stupidity is glorified, no condemned as it should be.

-- Workers are losing, not gaining, ground. Real wages have been falling since Carter was in office, while the number of hours worked has increased. In other words, we're working more and more, harder and harder, just to keep the bleeding under control. Did I mention that one in four U.S. jobs pays less than $10/hour?

-- At the same time, the only group whose income has gone up over these past eight years has been the wealthy. Not the merely well-to-do, mind you, I'm talking about the super-rich, the top fraction of one percent. Their incomes have increased by approximately 50%.

-- A government run by of, by, and for moneyed special interests. The government folded winning hands against both Microsoft (toothless non-settlement) and the tobacco industry (declined to seek money damages when they were found to have engaged in racketeering.) Oh, and with the Medicare Part D, it is prohibited by law from using its purchasing power to negotiate lower drug prices. Free market my ass, that sounds an awful lot like socialism to me.

-- An unsustainable economy built on a housing bubble and Pentagon socialism. Vonage is a perfect example of what happens if you try to "innovate" - you get sued out existence because of some vague interpretation of a heretofore unused patent.

-- A long history of being the world's bumbling idiot bully. The U.S. has repeatedly toppled democratically elected governments all over the world. Nobody likes a bully, and everybody laughs their ass off when said bully gets kicked in the nuts good and hard, as happened to the U.S. on 9/11. It's even funnier when the mastermind of said attack, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, entered the U.S. legally on a tourist visa six weeks prior to 9/11 while he was a wanted fugitive! Oh, and let's not forget that the 9/11 hijackers had their visas approved weeks or months after the attacks!

I could go on, but that's why you'd be better off going to just about any other first-world country besides the U.S.

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

"Shut up and pay your taxes" is the correct and valid response to whiners who say, "If I have to pay a tax own this property, I dont own anything, I am nothing more than a renter." .

Re:US?

[blind biker]

Thank you (and the other two guys). From your description, it sounds quite a bit like southern Finland (my beautiful home), minus the showers. Yeah, I kinda mind the rain. Even snow at -20 C bothers me less than rain, but all the rest you described makes Scotland very attractive.

Last 2 questions: how cold does it get, and how windy?

Solution coming our way...

[mutterc]

I have a solution to all of our immigration problems:

Completely co-opt government in the favor of corporations' short-term profits. Once the USA's economy collapses and we become a third-world country, then the line of people waiting to get in will get a lot shorter.

Re:US?

[coolmoose25]

And just for the record, where do you live?

Bonus Question: If the answer to the above is "US", why have you not emmigrated to another first-world country?

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I've visited, but no and I wouldn't want to.

Why not? You support people who claim that the Government (Federal, State or local) have done nothing to deserve the tax they collect. There are places in the world where there is no government to speak of. They are not nice places to live.

Government protects wealth. Government enhances your ability to earn a living. It deserves to tax you. It is possible that it could protect it better, or enhance your ability more than what it currently does. It could probably do it with lot less tax than what it collects now. The quantum of tax collected is a legitimate point to argue about and act up in the elections. But making stupid statements like, "If I have to pay a tax then I dont own anything I am nothing but a renter" is either dumb or politically motivated lie.

Re:So this has become another green card lottery?

[manastungare]

There is, however, an exceptions to the cap for people who have earned a Masters or Doctorate degree from a U.S. university. There is no distinction made by nation of origin, as correctly stated by the parent.

Scots: Mostly Harmless

[Shag]

Actually just the other night on the news (here in Scotland) they were talking about racially motivated crime being on the rise. Not violence, per se, just property crime. But overall, though, it's a pretty nice place.

Mobs of drunken Scots pose little threat to strangers, although they're quite commonly encountered. They seem to primarily just beat each other up, presumably realizing that other members of their own little drunken mob are unlikely to go to the police, while strangers would probably do so.

Mobs of sober Scots pose little threat to strangers as well, primarily because you can't find enough sober Scots at once to form a mob. ;)

Re:Scots: Mostly Harmless

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Mobs of sober Scots pose little threat to strangers as well, primarily because you can't find enough sober Scots at once to form a mob. ;)

Sobriety is overrated, anyway.

Four kinds of visas - H1-B only one of them

[WillAffleckUW]

The ones that matter to geeks are the L-1 and L-2 visas for professors and grad students from overseas - H1-B is just an artificial way to avoid talking about the need for a real immigration reform where people with skills - like fluency in English, ability to be understood in English, knowledge of American non-metric measurements, and skills our country can use - would lead to people becoming citizens.

The fourth type are NAFTA and CAFTA visas for Mexican/Canadian and Canadian workers here, who have a separate category.

The real appeal of H1B

[loudici]

There is one part of the H1B program i have not seen mentioned which I think explains why the industry likes them so much. H1B workers are pretty tightly linked to their job and won't quit, because they would jeopardize their visa, and later their Green Card application process. I have seen a lot of H1Bs working for years maintaining crappy legacy code while they were waiting for their visa number. Americans on that team would ask to be transfered to another project or quit.

The other hidden face of that program is that a lot of H1B workers are employed by staffing companies who are taking advantage of them ruthlessly.

Re:US?

[cascadingstylesheet]

>I could go on, but that's why you'd be better off going to just
>about any other first-world country besides the U.S.

Then why do so many try to come and stay here?

healthcare

[NoBozo99]

I agree. At least they have a healthcare system that won't bankrupt or penalize you if you get sick.

Re:healthcare

[oakgrove]

Yeah, because that always happens to everybody. Crawl back under your bridge, little troll.

Re:healthcare

[NoBozo99]

Takes one to know on and you know them all.

Re:US?

[JimBobJoe]

It may take a generation or two before the stigma wears off and/or unions don't keep making the same mistakes.

That's unlikely. There are several states in which the majority of unionized employees are government employees. We are about a decade or two for most union workers in the US to be government employees. Once that happens, unions will never be able to shake their reputations.

Scotland Immigration

[Acer500]

It doesn't seem that easy to me to emigrate to Scotland (if you're not an EU citizen).

I'm thinking of emigrating (not because I'm unemployed, there's actually 100% occupation in IT in my country, but because of the low low wages), and after reading your post I made some quick searches.

For someone like me, with a bachelor's degree, I'd have to apply to the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme.

I went to the HSMP website, and this is what it said (despite my speaking fluent English and having a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, being young, healthy and single, all requirements which would qualify me for residence in Canada or Australia, which are the countries I'm looking into):

HSMP Points Calculator

We regret to inform you that at this time, you either do not meet the current pass mark of 75 points or do not meet one of the other requirements for entry to the UK under the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme. You would therefore not have a good chance of being successful in your application based on your skills, qualifications and age.

20 points for your age 30 points for your qualification 0 points for UK Qualification or UK Work Experience 0 points for earning power 50 total points (75 needed to qualify)

You are unable to show that you will have sufficient funds in the UK to pay your living expenses there - not eligible

http://www.talentscotland.com/view_item.aspx?item_ id=589

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk /en/homepage/schemes_and_programmes/hsmp.html

Re:US?

[jhylkema]

And just for the record, where do you live?

The U.S., for now.

Bonus Question: If the answer to the above is "US", why have you not emmigrated to another first-world country?

I'm working on that.

Re:US?

[jhylkema]

Then why do so many try to come and stay here?

A classic ad populum fallacy, that.

Be that as it may, the U.S. needs cheap, easily exploitable labor, and the U.S. lets them in.

Re:US?

[Retric]

Why do you feel government should care about religions?

It is my view that religious indoctrination is a form a child abuse which warrants the forcible termination of his/her parental rights and responsibilities without his/her consent.

Now are you going to go along with this or do you feel that the state can ignore the beliefs of some of its people?

what this really means...

[withsmile]

While you guys are focusing on the legitimacy of H1b, impact on US economy, good or bad etc, let's look really into those numbers and get some real meaning under the whole H1b-cap stuff. Let's say there is a company, namely IT consulting company, hiring the people in their home country who want to pay for their H1b visas. The company trains the people and looks for IT projects for them(or worse, you are on your own to find projects). You have to pay $5000-10,000 up front and the company "modifies" your resume so that everyone is pretty much guranteed for a job. Once you get started, the company keeps up to 6 months of your paycheck and after that, you are free to go, just transfer your H1b to another company. "In 2006, a review of new information from the federal government suggests that the companies benefiting most from the temporary worker program aren't U.S. companies at all. Rather, they appear to be Indian outsourcing firms, which often hire workers from India to train in the U.S. before returning home to work. Data for the fiscal year 2006, which ended last September, show that 7 of the top 10 applicants for H-1B visas are Indian companies. Giants Infosys Technologies (INFY) and Wipro (WIT) took the top two spots, with 22, 600 and 19,400 applications, respectively. The company with the third most applications is Cognizant Technology Solutions (CTSH), which is based in Teaneck, N.J., but has most of its operations in India. All three companies provide services to U.S. companies from India, including technology support and back-office processing."-----businessweek Hope this will reveal some insights about where the hell the 150,000 applications come from. One note: those people are bearly qualified with little knowledge on IT but trained to do repetitive coding work.

Re:US?

[Retric]

To be clear I don't think "It is my view that religious indoctrination is a form a child abuse which warrants the forcible termination of his/her parental rights and responsibilities without his/her consent." is a good idea.

I was pointing out that the state can not meet everyone's desires. And just because you feel strongly about something does not mean someone feels strongly about its antithesis.

Re:US?

[coolmoose25]

I hope you find what you are looking for there. Vaya Con Dios... Or perhaps "Goodbye, eh" would be more appropriate. And FWIW, if the move is largely driven by orientation issues (supposition based on the blogs you linked to), I for one wish things were different here - and that you'd feel more welcome to stay.

Re:US?

[HungWeiLo]

If this happened in India, the succesful group would have been hounded mercilessly and demonized for political purposes.

That's only because there are relatively few Indians in the US. I'm guessing around 50% of Americans have never actually interacted with or even seen an Indian. (Besides, they'd think "smoke signals" Indian, not "dot-on-the-forehead" Indian - sorry). Just like the successful Jews were hounded in Europe 60 years ago, the early Chinese immigrants (who were starting to do well as they starting enterprising into other ventures other than getting themselves whipped or blown up while building railroad tracks out West) were targeted by the Chinese Exclusion Act and had all their assets taken away and kicked out of the U.S. 1 in 8 Koreans are entrepreneurs in their home country, and most of these people have migrated to the U.S. in recent years. It's not too much of a stretch for some hypothetical hate-baiter politician to use Koreans as a convenient statistic for their own gains.

Because of the relative recent prosperity of the U.S., there have been very few conflicts arising from jealousy of groups of foreigners perceived to be "doing better." But off the top of my head, as recently as the 80s, people like Vincent Chin have been murdered for being perceived to take jobs away from the "natives" when times do get bad in the U.S. Or witness the fervor surrounding the debate on Affirmative Action in the last 10-15 years, where an insignificant 1-5% of positions slated for minorities are bitterly fought and debated over and you can see how nasty things can get.

BAN CHILDBIRTH!!!

[RexRhino]

The people who are against allowing foreign workers and immigrants into the United States claim they are not racists or xenophobes. They claim that by increasing the labor pool for a certain job, that it lowers the wage for that job - And they are just trying to "protect American workers". They feel that these workers are "stealing jobs" from Americans.

Fine. In that case, lets ban childbirth! Every year, millions of babies are born in the United States, and grow up to compete with the existing labor force! Our population is increasing and increasing and increasing! That of course means there are millions of more people competing for the same jobs!

Now, I know what you are saying... people get old, they retire, they die. Of course. I am not saying that a few selected people won't be allowed to have children - Perhaps there could be some sort of national childbirth lottery. But if we don't do something about all those job-stealing babies being born, we aren't going to have a country left!

Yes, I agree, some may say that we are sacrificing our tradition of freedom by taking away people's right to procreate. Sure, but we are also sacrificing our tradition of being a country of immigrants by restricting immigration (ever heard of "give me your tired, give me your poor"? Probably not. Lets just say that unless your skin is red, you are the product of immigration). The freedom-loving person would want to be free to hire whoever they want, not to be told who they have to hire. This sacrifice in freedom is nessicary to protect our economy!

Re:BAN CHILDBIRTH!!!

[RexRhino]

I am sure you understood that it was simply a modest proposal I was making.

But, U.S. immigration is far more restrictive now than it ever was. There was a time when immigration was far greater in proportion to population size than today. If something is killing the middle class, it is not immigration.

The U.S. has always allowed education people to come to our country to work. In fact, the greatest minds in America of the 20th Century (Einstien, Von Newman, Tesla, Bell, Fermi, Von Braun) were immigrants to the U.S.. The U.S. would have lost WWII and the Cold War if it wasn't for granting Visas to foreigners. Clearly it isn't visas that are destroying the middle class.

Outsourcing? Canada has a higher minimum wage and higher taxes than the United States, yet U.S. jobs are being outsourced to Canada (more so than India). Why? Clearly there has to be something more at work here than a "race to the bottom" that everyone pretends. Can you think of a reason why U.S. companies would want to outsource to a country with a higher minimum wage and higher taxes? Think of the answer to that, and it will give you an idea of why outsourcing is becoming so popular.

But the Lou Dobbs Yellow Journalism Xenophobic "Damn Furiners and Biznessmin" Theory is not the reason for the decline of the middle class.

Immigration Nightmare!

[RexRhino]

Remember the nightmare, back before the U.S. restricted immigration!?!?!

We had the scurge of people like Einstien, and John von Neumann! We had the evil of people like Enrico Fermi, and Nicoli Tesla, and Alexander Graham Bell, stealing up all those jobs that should have gone to hard working Americans! And it is about time we kick that evil job-stealing bastard Linus Torvalds from this great U.S. of A. to whatever Scandinavian hell-hole he is from!!!

Think how much more advanced and successful the U.S. economy would be if it wasn't for these people ruining everything!

Re:Immigration Nightmare!

[RexRhino]

All those people you mention were European. Europeans, in general, are fairly easy to assimilate into American culture, as America springs from European origins.

Hordes of Latinos and Asians are coming these days, and they are not assimilating. Millions of Africans are coming, and they are not assimilating. I know it's liberal dogma that race and culture don't matter, but reality cares nothing for your dogmas.

It's okay... mod me troll, and repeat over and over "he's a racist, he's a racist, he's a racist, I can ignore him, he's a racist..." Just like the Catholic with their prayer beads, and just as empty, but oh so soothing and you don't have to think... Well, first of all, this Slashdot post was about H-1B visas, which are for highly skilled professionals, not the hords of poor people which you imply, so your comment doesn't even make sense.

But in regards to immigration in general - Did you know that the KKK established in the north as a reaction to Irish and Italian immigration? That the same stuff said about Muslims now were said about Catholics and Jews? Do a google search on the anti-Catholic and anti-Irish propoganda, and you can see that all of the complaints you have now about non-Europeans were being used against Europeans.

Did you know that the percentage of people who speak English as a first language in the U.S. has been steadily INCREASING!!!? Back in the late 1700s and early 1800s there were entire towns that spoke German, Italian, Dutch... At one point in the late 1800s, there were more people who spoke Dutch as a first language in the U.S. than in Holland?! (in the real "old west", people where more likely to have a European accent than the southern style drawl you hear in the Hollywood version) Even in the 1950s it was not uncommon for second or third generation Americans to be somewhat fluent in their parent's or grandparent's language. If anything, English is spoken too much - most Americans nowadays are monolingual.

You do realise, also, that many Europeans didn't totally assimilate into American culture - American culture assimilated those cultures. Do you celebrate St. Patricks day (an Irish Catholic holiday)? Do you ever call someone a "schmuck", or talk about a computer "glitch", or go to a party to "shmooze", or go to a "shlock" horror film, or eat a "bagel"? (Well, then you are speaking Yiddish!). Do you enjoy rock music, or jazz music? (Then you enjoy African rhythm! They aren't even European!!!). Those things just seem "American" to you because YOU have been assimilated into those cultures as much as those cultures were assimilated into America.

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

How does the government enhance my ability to earn a living? For some of us, it actually interferes with our ability to earn a living.

Really? You make a widget and some local thug comes in and takes it away from you. You run to the police! Wait there is no police. Ok grudgingly all the widget makers band together to fund a local police and chip in some money. That is how local govt started collecting taxes.

You go, "I am ok with local govt and its taxes, I am talking about the Federal govt here". Just think it through you will get it. What the much maligned federal govt is doing for you.

Widget market gets controlled by a widget sellers cartel who pay the widget makers rock bottom prices, not unlike what Walmart is doing to China. It is the Sherman antitrust laws that gives the common man a fair shake. The interstate commerce clause makes sure the widgets you make has a huge market. The fair credit laws, breach-of-contract laws, more importantly the machinery to enforce it creates wealth for your consumers who will pay more for your widgets. The ability to enforce contracts using civil court proceedings is such a huge wealth creator and multiplier like you cant imagine. That is why I asked you if you have lived in another country. Despite all the lawyer jokes, and law being an ass and courts being laughed at for their insane decisions, the civil dispute resolution mechanism of USA is the envy of every developing nation in the world.

To make your widget making facility you walk into your local bank and get open a line of credit. Self made man you are and all you want is govt off your back so that you can make widgets and a living through that. In India you cant do that. The banks are Govt owned and they will lend you money only if they think the widget you make is of national interest. Or you should know someone. Or you should bribe someone. OK what about private lenders? Soft people who would be willing to lend money at lower interest dont do it because there is no effective debt collection mechanism or contract enforcement mechanism. Those who are willing lend are those who have the ability to collect without going to courts. You are their mercy for loans and the loan rates depend on the weapons owned by your clan/caste/tribe and the willingness of your cousins to stand up to the money lenders. Is there any wonder why USA creates wealth and India is mired in poverty?

You want lower taxes? That is a reasonable. You want to claim that "if I have to pay a tax I am nothing more than a renter"? That is hyperbole. To think that the Federal, state and the local governments have done nothing to enhance your ability to earn a living is just plain ignorance, to be charitable.

It is beyond question that the earning potential of every American is enhanced by the goverment. Every one of them. Without any exception. The only question are could it do even more? Could it do it for less taxes? It is really a sad day that I, from India have to teach the fundamentals of economics to you. (a natural born American, I assume)

Re:US?

[sgt_doom]

Also, I believe Europe isn't composed of rogue terrorist nations (can you say USA?). Anyone disputes this, check the news and read a book. 'Nuff said....

Re:US?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Yes they can. The fair value is something that they set, often below what you could sell it for if you decided to sell, and usually well below what it's worth to the developer. If proeprty rights were real, the developer would have to offer a lot more money; basically, ED is way too powerful and should be limited to cases of invasion and devastation - using ED to force the sale of some of the NOLA houses that have been abandoned and plant trees is one example of proper usage.

Are employers getting that great a bargin?

[walterbyrd]

From what I have seen: PHBs love to chase the latest managerial fad.

I know of techies that are seriously under-employed: BSEEs working one of those jobs where you handle tickets, etc. But, instead of hiring US citizens, the PHBs just *know* that H1Bs are the bargin of the century.

But, I really wonder, if you were to add it up: all the overhead involved, all the demorallizing, all the bad-will. I have to wonder if the PHBs are getting the bargins that they think they are getting.

Re:US?

[frank_adrian314159]

Scotland - we're possibly the most welcoming country in the world.

Yeah, but you have to go learn another language...

Re:US?

[Ihlosi]

How does the government enhance my ability to earn a living? For some of us, it actually interferes with our ability to earn a living.

Yeah, if you run a racketeering operation, deal drugs, are a professional hit man, a fraudster, or various other types of criminal, or want to sell cheap-o, shoddily made, unsafe products, then, hell yeah, the government really interferes with your ability earn a living.

For most honest folks, if the government really interferes that much with their ability to make a living, they're not adaptable enough or are doing things wrong.

Re:US?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You do know that it was Germany that was hounding Jews, right? And that they used them as a scapegoat for the Weimar republic that resulted from them being blamed for WW1, right?

Re:US?

[Copid]

I have it on authority from a Glaswegian that Glasgow has the best stab-wound doctors in the world. ;-)

On a related note, I seem to remember reading that there are a number of European countries that send their military trauma surgeons to the big cities in the US to train. If they didn't, they might very well arrive on the battlefield never having seen a gunshot wound.

Re:US?

[terjeber]

Someone who is actively, and visually, engaged in disruptive work against a totalitarian government. Now, I do know that there are more than 100, don't get me wrong, but Europe receives thousands and thousands of "political refugees" each year. People who have never voiced opposition against any government and who have never been persecuted for anything.

Very close to 100% of the "refugees" coming to Europe are convenience "refugees". The European governments should act accordingly.

Note that the US doesn't have this number of "political refugees" coming in. Why? Because they know that there is no social welfare system in the US that will feed them.

system should favor highly skilled applicants

[pixelator]

Well, this is bad news for me. I am about to get my PhD from a top-ranking U.S. university (in computer science). Yes, I am a foreigner. I worked hard for 6 years to earn the PhD, and published several research papers in top journals. I am one of the top experts world-wide in my field. As far as H1B is concerned, I could be getting my Masters Degree from the worst university in this country, with low grades, no research papers... and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. I like USA: I came here to follow my dream. I want to contribute to this society. And now you are telling me I should do the H1B lottery if I want to work for an American company. And that I am taking a job away from a skilled American... If you are not going to let people like me stay and live in this country, you are going to lose competitive edge - and I will lose a great work environment and friends I made while living here. Please establish a system that favors highly skilled candidates with advanced degrees.

Re:US?

[terjeber]

When you don't agree with me, what you're saying is essentially that you expect the government of a country to change the way the country works to cater to immigrants. Sorry, that's not how immigration works. Immigrants integrate into the system of the country, the system doesn't change to cater to the immigrants.

I am not saying you should change the system to "cater to immigrants", quite the opposite, you should change the system so that you stop catering to lazy shits. The reason Europe has an immigration problem is that Europe wants to put all of its immigrants on the dole. Fine. If having them on the dole is what Europe wants, then that is what Europe gets, but then you can't complain that you have a problem. You have exactly what you wanted.

As you yourself agree, immigrants themselves choose not to work. Not through any "active encouragement" as you put it.

Rubbish. Of course it is actively encouraged. When a "political refugee" arrives into a typical European country he is not allowed to work. He is forced to take social welfare. This situation lasts, depending on the country, anywhere from 6 months to several (4, 5 6) years. Forcing someone onto social welfare for this amount of time conditions them to continue on social welfare. There is your encouragement.

when our doors were wide open, and immigration, integration and getting a job was *considerably* easier and government help with employment much more readily available, the same thing happened.

No, it didn't. The Scandinavian countries have had a no-immigration policy in place since the late '70s early '80s. Immigrants who arrived prior to the implementation of the no-immigration policy did a lot better than the current immigrant population, not only that, they did better than the Scandinavian population on average.

Please tell me, if this isn't a policy issue, why didn't it become a problem until we (including me in the Scandinavians now) changed our policy on immigration?

Perhaps the immigrants should think about finding a country they appreciate and where they can actually earn their keep

They can, and they do. Remember, the US does not have these problems. Why? Any ideas? Do you think it has anything to do with the different policies in the US and Europe?

instead of barging in, settling down and then doing nothing but complain while sitting at home on welfare instead of being out looking for a job like the rest of us.

If I was allowed to stay in a country, but barred from working for 3 years after arriving, I think I would become malcontent as well. How about you? If, on the other hand, I came to a country where I knew they would allow me to work, and kick me out of the country after 6 weeks if I didn't have a job, maybe I would go looking for one.

Again, the US doesn't have this problem. Why? Do we only get the good immigrants over here?

Re:US?

[metlin]

You make a good point, however while there is some degree of hostility, it is particularly bad in the South (at least, compared to the North).

As a "Madrasi" who spent most of his childhood growing up in parts of North India, the North was a whole lot more broad minded than the South. The term Madrasi is used to refer to all south Indians, but for the most part it is fairly benign, humorous even.

Sadly, I doubt I could say the same of the south. I've lived in a few states in the South - and TN was the worst (in my experience). If anything, as someone who did not speak good Tamil, I had trouble integrating with my classmates in Madras (even though I'm technically a tam-brahm). In fact, I noticed visible hostility towards cultural practices that people in the North didn't really care about (e.g. you'd get teased and made fun of for even speaking in English, was surprised me). And speaking in another language in public (autos, restaurants, buses etc) just got rude responses. Compare this with North, where even if you didn't speak the language, they usually try to help you out.

I really do not know enough about the East/West, but between North and the South, the North is a whole lot better and broad minded. People tend to be nicer, compared to the South, particularly Tamil Nadu.

Now, I do agree with the rest of your points, though. If any one group had gotten successful in a region of India they are not from, things would not have been that pleasant. Although, I do believe that things are looking a whole lot better today than they did a few years ago.

But I think the key difference is that India is inherently a very conservative, closed culture (at least in recent history). The US is inherently a very open, immigrant-friendly culture -- hell, it was built by and for immigrants. That may have something to do with it.

PS - had added you as a friend a while ago, but for whatever reason, you showed up as a foe. Weirdness.

That just means...

[Krojack]

the other 85,000 will have to sneak across the Mexican border

Re:US?

[vague_ascetic]

Although intended as comedy, this exemplifies why there should be open borders for immigration worldwide, and why any concept of citizenry not based upon voluntary decision is an illegitimate assertion of state power over individual rights. Acquiescing to the state's assertion of power in this regard is in reality an atavistic return to feudalism.

America was founded upon the concept of a Natural Right to Expatriation, which was then understood to mean both egress from and ingress to a country. This was essential in legitimising their separation from the yoke of allegiance to the British Crown. It was an expression of Human Rights by a free people, rather than an act of rebellion by treasonous subjects of the crown.

It seems Americans are more content to be the subjects of lords than free humans these days. Contemplating the implications of this for both my country, and the world, is a source of sadness.

Re:US?

[SageMusings]

That's a fairly distorted view of property tax

I believe it to be accurate.

The county doesn't own a thing (if they did, they could kick you out of the house any time without any legal trouble).

It's called imminent domain. The Supreme Court ruled the country or city can kick you out if the can get a higher-taxed property to take your place. I recall it caused quite a furor but very quickly died down.

Insource Corporate Board Members

[vague_ascetic]

If we were to allow in unlimited number of temporary visas for any person who was employed as a Corporate Executive, and then inform them that the temporary visa was transferable to a permanent one, only if they succeeded in keeping jobs in America, along with keeping the corporation competitive in the global market, it would substantially decrease outsourcing in the USA. Another benefit from this would be a significant downward pressure on Corporate executive compensation packages.

Re:US?

[Ihlosi]

I believe it to be accurate.

Well, sorry, then your belief is wrong.

It's called imminent domain.

Eminent domain.

The Supreme Court ruled the country or city can kick you out if the can get a higher-taxed property to take your place.

They cannot "kick you out". They can force you to sell it. If they really owned anything, they could kick you out without having to compensate you for it, and any legal wrangling would stop several instances before even getting to the SCOTUS.

Alternative for Canadians - TN-1

[ashitaka]

There is a special class of visa for skilled Canadians who want to work in the U.S. but who don't want to (or can't e.g. no degree) go through the hassle of getting an H1-B.

The TN-1 is a one-year renewable visa with much laxer requirements. I have this to qualify for working at client sites in the States, although that rarely happens as all my development is done remotely.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

"Why do you feel government should care about religions" That is exactly my point. It should stick to egalite and allow people to ware whatever they want as long it is commonly accepted as decent.

"It is my view that religious indoctrination is a form a child abuse" How it is different from any other child upbringing? Any education involves indoctrination of a child by parents believes, because you cannot convince a child with a logic (entirely).

"Now are you going to go along with this or do you feel that the state can ignore the beliefs of some of its people?" The state is not ignoring: it is banning "religious symbols". It is banning something solely for ideological basis.

Re:First post!

[emilper]

No, it's because education is a form of capital. A bachelor's degree is the same as bringing 40000USD with you (amount based on: four years in undergrad x 10000 USD per year in a non-US university).

For the people that bring money with them there are other ways to get a visa.

In more normal times United States encouraged immigration because the immigrants brought in, on average, more capital than what money they sent back home.

Re:US?

[mikkelm]

I am not saying you should change the system to "cater to immigrants", quite the opposite, you should change the system so that you stop catering to lazy shits. The reason Europe has an immigration problem is that Europe wants to put all of its immigrants on the dole. Fine. If having them on the dole is what Europe wants, then that is what Europe gets, but then you can't complain that you have a problem. You have exactly what you wanted.

Our system worked just fine before mass immigration. There were lazy people, yes, but the overwhelming amount of Danes actually worked for a living. The problem now is the pressure that immigrants are putting on the system. If immigration tipped the scale, then immigration is the problem, and changing *anything* about our system to fix a problem created by immigration *is* catering to immigrants, and while the majority of us don't at all mind immigrants who are ready to work just like we do and integrate into the system, almost none of us want to see the system change because of it. Immigration is a privilege, not a right to be abused.

No, it didn't. The Scandinavian countries have had a no-immigration policy in place since the late '70s early '80s. Immigrants who arrived prior to the implementation of the no-immigration policy did a lot better than the current immigrant population, not only that, they did better than the Scandinavian population on average. Please tell me, if this isn't a policy issue, why didn't it become a problem until we (including me in the Scandinavians now) changed our policy on immigration?

If you think that our doors closed in the '70s, then I'm afraid that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast, *vast* majority of immigrants in Scandinavian countries are there as a result of family reunification, which until the late '90s was a free pass into the country if you had any sort of relative living there. These were the immigrants who continued the trend of one or two people working for the family, and the rest staying home, and put a huge load on the system as a result of their unwillingness to integrate into the system and get jobs like the rest of us. Instead, they chose willingly to live like they used to, in a way completely incompatible with the Danish way of life, and instead collect welfare just because they can.

It's obvious that this isn't a policy issue, but an issue of incompatibility with the system. This inherently means that there won't be an issue for the first few years, but as immigration increases, the problem will increase with it exponentially. That's logical. The immigration policy change happened when it became evident that there were too many bad apples in the bunch for our system to handle, and instead of changing our system, we felt it better to stem the tide of immigrants. Which is logical. No other developed sovereign nation in the Western world would change their system significantly due to outside influence.

Rubbish. Of course it is actively encouraged. When a "political refugee" arrives into a typical European country he is not allowed to work. He is forced to take social welfare. This situation lasts, depending on the country, anywhere from 6 months to several (4, 5 6) years. Forcing someone onto social welfare for this amount of time conditions them to continue on social welfare. There is your encouragement.

Guess what? This only goes for people in asylum centres. Guess what our new policies limit? Among other things, the number of asylum seekers let into the country, and the demand to those asylum seekers once they do get in.

No, this isn't a result of any failed policy - This is a result of immigrants showing themselves to largely be incompatible with our system, and the government subsequently acting on this.

If you're really so convinced that it's the fault of the government that immigrants don't work, then you're deluded. The onus is on the immigrants to find

Re:US?

[terjeber]

The problem now is the pressure that immigrants are putting on the system. If immigration tipped the scale, then immigration is the problem

Immigration didn't tip any kind of scale. The problem is that there was a policy change. Before the early '80s, immigrants were allowed in. Immigrants. After that, only "refugees" were allowed in. Is there a difference? Yes there is, the immigrants had jobs before they arrived, the "refugees" are not allowed to work for months or even years after they arrive. That is a change in policy, not in people.

If you think that our doors closed in the '70s, then I'm afraid that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast, *vast* majority of immigrants in Scandinavian countries are there as a result of family reunification, which until the late '90s was a free pass into the country

Family reunification for whom? For the refugees that have been let into the country for years. Not for the pre-1980s immigrants. The pre-1980s immigrants are doing quite well. Far better than the population in general. Why did that change? What changed in the early '80s?

BTW, even though I would have to check the numbers, I think you are seriously wrong about the sources of immigration. As far as I know the vast majority of immigrants to the Scandinavian countries still come from the other Scandinavian countries. Britain and Germany are probable also up there at the top, and so is probably also the poorer EU countries these days, countries like the Baltic states and Poland. The immigrants from non-European countries are probably relatively low on the list still, even though they are the source of the majority problems that involves immigrants.

It's obvious that this isn't a policy issue, but an issue of incompatibility with the system. This inherently means that there won't be an issue for the first few years, but as immigration increases, the problem will increase with it exponentially. That's logical.

Wrong again. The problem didn't increase from pre-1980s to post-1980s, the situation changed dramatically. The immigrants were less criminal, better employed etc than the Scandinavian population in general. They did better than us in all measurable areas. Then we stopped immigration and turned to a policy where we allowed "refugees" instead. Then suddenly immigrants became more violent and more criminal than the population in general.

If this was just a "manageable problem" when immigration was small, a problem that became unmanageable when immigration became large, then immigrants pre-1980s would have exhibited the same behavior as you see now, but on a scale so small that it would not have been a problem. They would have been more criminal than the population in general, had higher unemployment etc. That is not the case. Pre 1980s, they were less criminal than you and I (we are now the representatives of the average Scandinavian), better employed etc. This isn't a problem that became worse with increased immigration, this is a situation that changed dramatically when we changed our immigration policy.

We see a dramatic shift when we go from immigration to "refugees", and since that was the main change, perhaps we did something wrong there. It is also interesting to note that US, which did not go from immigration to "refugees" have not seen the same problem.

The reason immigrants find easier employment in the US is that they're forced into it by the system in place.

Are you dense? What is it that you are saying over? You are saying that the immigrants in the US are doing well because of "the system in place". What does "the system in place" mean? It is the policies of the government. The law of the land. The way things work. So, you are saying that the immigrants in Europe are doing poorly because they are lazy shits, but the same immigr

Fundamental Moral Issue

[rogerz]

I haven't seen any posts mention the fundamental moral issue: Government power ought not be used to prevent any individual from moving freely in pursuit of whatever peaceful purposes they choose.

As applied to immigration, I am fully sympathetic to the idea that such individuals should face the burden of proof that their intentions are peaceful, and that unlawful behavior in their country of origin (so long as that country has a legitimate rule of law) would be a prima facie case for rejecting their application. And, based on the realities of the modern world, there would also be strong grounds for rejecting the application of individuals from areas that are known to harbor sworn enemies of the U.S. and of individual rights in general.

I would venture that these criteria would eliminate only a tiny fraction of the H1B applicants. I would also submit that, were the process framed this way, enforcement would be much easier. Honest people would be extremely forthcoming in their willingness to prove their suitability to be allowed in, if they knew that only truly evil behavior and intentions were grounds for rejection. Immigration officials could focus their energies on ferretting out actual bad guys instead of trying vainly to optimize a decision involving endless incalculable political and economic variables. And again, the burden of proof would be on the applicant.

Otherwise, however, preventing the free movement of individuals is a violation of their human rights, and should not be the policy of a free country. Those opposed to this position should answer the question: on what basis should the power of force be used to prevent someone from peaceably pursuing their own happiness? Do you have some kind of "right" to a particular job at a particular salary which nullifies someone else's (actual) right to simply try for a better life? If so, then you must be saying that this "right" of yours derives simply from the accident of you having been born in the U.S. Think about the illogic of that position.

That is in addition to the practical benefits of immigration to all Americans, mentioned by other posts.

Re:Fundamental Moral Issue

[rogerz]

I won't argue with any of these points.

Instead, I will save this reply in my ~ as a quintessential example of what is meant by the idea "will to power".

Re:US?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Shutting up and paying taxes isn't the way America should work.

You seem to rather preoccupied with the phrase "shut up and pay your taxes". You dont seem to realize it is a reply to a whiner who said, "if I have to pay tax, then I am nothing more than a renter". You repeat the standard kool-aid of the far right, from worshipping Bushmaster AR15 to treating the Federalist papers like the muslims treat Q`ran. "This is how I interpret the Fedaralist Papers and any deviation from it means you are apostate." But when the very same papers were interpreted they way you do women, native Americans, slaves, Jews and the minorities suffered enormously. Except for a few White men willing to appear to be God fearing Christians, all the rest had very very difficult time in the early America. You dont have any comprehension of these things. All you know is to repeat the hard right mantras

You say you've read Rand in your profile, I'd suggest you try the federalist papers next.

I have, in this very thread, eulogized the US Justice Department as the very envy of every devloping nation in the world. I am also aware, among many other things, that as recently as in 1918, US Supreme Court (Justice Sutherland) ruled that "Although Indians are Caucasians, they are not white and hence not eligble for naturalization". I admire the Courts despite such a past. And you seem to derive some kind of perverse pleasure in calling India a a third world shithole. You are still living the times of Justice Sutherland who made that ruling. I have shown far better analytical skills and depth of knowledge and very clearly I am not in need of suggested reading material from you

You may have the last word.

Re:US?

[ghoul]

So what you are saying is just because Indians are racist its OK for Americans to be racist. Following your logic you could say just because the Nazis put Jews in Gas chambers it is ok for Americans to put Blacks into gas chambers (No wait .. thats not really a good example given the number of blacks on death row but you know what I mean) America as a nation of immigrants needs to be held to a higher standard than other countries. America has always benefited from immigration . India on the other hand has just recently regained its independence which it lost by welcoming foreign traders to their shores. So maybe Indians, French or Germans could have some reason for being racist but why Americans? Everytime a foreigner comes to America and becomes American they increase America's strength. I do agree that assimilation should be fast - maximum one generation and am violently opposed to bilingual education. A common language is necessary for common civic culture. On that note I have an interesting idea for those who believe large scale immigration will swamp communities and create their own Little Mexicos, Little Italies , Indiatown etc. Make it easier for people from mixed cultures to become Americans e.g. Allow any couple where the husband and wife have different mother tongues become Americans. These are obviously people who dont want to recreate their own countries in USA and their loyalty is going to be only to the US

Re:US?

[tom's a-cold]

Come visit Scotland some time if you can face coming back, there's a lot of friendly people here.

I second that. I'm an American of mostly Irish origin. My wife is from the Middle East. We lived in England for a number of years. But now, when we visit Britain we prefer to go somewhere in Scotland. Generally there's less xenophobia, much less class obsession, the people are sometimes reserved but genuinely friendly. And I think the best English is spoken by the Scots.

Of course it's not all sweetness and light. For one thing, there are midges. And I still don't understand how someone can eat a deep-fried Mars bar, but I'll just have to live with that mystery.

Re:US?

[ghoul]

Third wold citizens feel most comfortable coming to US as it is the first world country most similar to the third world. Europe with its welfare, govt sponsored programmes and adequate funding for students feels strange to third worlders. The US with its ruthless capitalism where if you cant pay you die is familiar from childhood.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

Scarf is not a "religious symbol". It is a religious obligation. Can you tell a difference between "religious obligation" and "religious propaganda"?

It is a symbol. The fact that it is a mandatory symbol is secondary. It is a symbol, and civil law forbids it. No religion supersedes civil law. Case closed.

So you are saying I should be quiet now because every other religious person is discriminated? THAT is twisted.

It is only discrimination if different people are treated differently. That is not the case. No one is being discriminated here. No one is allowed the use of religious symbols.

Christians do not make fuss over it for several reasons: first, it might be that people do not consider it obligatory to wear a cross, second, there aren't so many as deeply believing Christians in France as Muslims anymore.

Christians do not make a fuss over it because of History. It's a direct result of the French revolution. It is no longer mandatory to wear a cross, because Europeans in general have weakened the weight of religious power on the society. Muslims haven't. They can do however they please in their land. They can't, however, criticize the history and costumes of other countries.

I believe Europe is better off without religious power meddling with society. This historic evolution is a positive evolution. Hence, I believe Europe should defend that religious independence. I congratulate the French for doing so openly. There is nothing to criticize in their stand.

We openly receive foreigners, as long as they understand and respect our culture, as much as we (Europeans) understand and respect their culture in their land.

As an exercise, imagine what would happen if a french woman decided it's her right to wear a miniskirt in a Muslim country.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Ok, I guess, if you say it is a "symbol", then it should be "a symbol". What I am, a Muslim, know about Islam anyway?

Discrimination. Right. Atheists can ware whatever they want as long as they do not reveal their religious identity, and religious people can ware whatever they want as long as they don't reveal their religious identity. Fair indeed!

French revolution. I do not care why they are not making a fuss. What I am saying is that the foundation of French republic which is based on equality and liberty are outrageously incosistent with religious persecution. Freedom means freedom of the religion as well, you know. In YOUR society.

What is mandatory and what is not is not up to decision of the government. Muslims ware what they ware not because they are forced by the government, it is because they consider it the religious obligation. Their belief is forcing them to obey the Lord, not some government. Especially in France.

Waring a cross was never mandatory by the way. Nobody criticizes the history and costumes of other countries... You are out of your mind. The subject is what Muslims ware.

The customs of the French, the French culture does not impose generally prohibition on the type of dress as long as it is decent (covers to some extent the body). I have never heard of it. The prohibition of a certain type of dress is not about French customs of not waring certain type of headcover. It is about suppressing freedom of religion in an outrageously hypocritical disregard to "openly" declared adherence to freedom.

Miniskirt in a Muslim country is an outrage because of the DECENCY standards, not because it is a religious symbol of slut religion.

Decency standards (not to reveal more that certain areas of the body) for dress exist in every single country, it is a universal human feature.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

What you don't seem to grasp is that in France, as in all of western Europe, religious law abides to civil law. If there is a contradiction between civil and religious law, people must follow civil law. This is a cultural difference between Europeans and middle-easterns. In France, as in Europe, if religion mandates a scarf and civil law forbids it, people should obey civil law and go bare-headed.

Is it correct? I'm sure you think not, I obviously think it is. I'm not discussing it, as I'm not discussing how high should a decent skirt be. It's a cultural difference. I'm stating, and please agree with me, that current law hierarchy is the result of events over two centuries old. It's the result of European History. It is a cultural marker of Europeans, which was already present generations before the Muslims who generated a ruff about the scarf arrived in France.

As European women respect Muslim decency standards, it is expected that Muslims - as all other religious believers - respect the culture of host countries. It's common sense.

To cap, I'll explain the religious symbol prohibition: It was instated to force the separation between state and church, in times when the church was perceived as having too much power. It's a leftover. I don't think it's needed anymore, but I doesn't do any harm either.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

I "grasp" that. What you are not "grasping" is the whole subject of the conversation which is not about Muslims, it is about French.

What _I_ do not "grasp" is how can an honest and intelligent person cannot see that this law contradicts the basic principles of French constitution: it discriminates against religious people vs atheists.

Religious people won't obey civil law if it contradicts what they must do. They either leave or fight for their rights. Hypocritical atheists can do whatever they do, and, we, religious people, will do whatever we have to do. So stop pointing to pointless banal statement that atheists are in power in France. I know that. Thank you.

"Over two centuries old". I do not care. It hypocritically contradicts your own constitution and if you are a honest person, you have to admit that.

Wearing the scarf does not violate French culture, French themselves wear scarfs of all kinds when they are in fashion. It is not culture, because people are not allowed to ware a piece of clothing if they adhere to the same ideology and they ARE allowed to wear the very same clothing item if they do not. That is how actually Muslim girls are effectively overpassing this idiotic law - by wearing all kinds of different headcovers - hats, scarfs, very weird looking ones.

"It does not do any harm"? I agree. It does ZERO harm to Muslims (in fact it is even beneficial to Muslims). As a parent I would home school my daughter as much as I can. If the state would attempt to take her away from me, I would try to emigrate, if they would not let me get my daughter, so that was the Higher decree, not the decree of mere tools, that atheist authorities are (so full of themselves). I am content with what is happening if I am not granted the power to change it.

You do not get it. Muslims are obliged to use MEANS, not to ACHIEVE goals. Achievement is GRANTED as a gift from the Creator who has created all this world and time and space, who decreed "Be, and it became". And in that aspect we will be still obeying religious laws in the first hand, while superficially obeying the civil laws of France. We are fine with that. It is not without us. Earth is wide, we can leave to other places. We will leave the world in less than 3 sec actually (that is the length of life compared to eternity of Paradise or Hell).

It is not about US, it is about YOU, atheists, YOU, French people, who are rotting inside, contradicting your own very basic principles that you so proudly declared for "over two centuries". I pity you, people, and I am writing here out of it.

And by the way, the law prohibiting waring religious symbols in school, or its application of this law to any headcover is not 200 years old. This is probably a reaction to Muslim immigration, partly a result from pressure of Le Pen and Co.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

I "grasp" that. What you are not "grasping" is the whole subject of the conversation which is not about Muslims, it is about French.

What _I_ do not "grasp" is how can an honest and intelligent person cannot see that this law contradicts the basic principles of French constitution: it discriminates against religious people vs atheists.

And herein lies the root of your misunderstanding. You missed the first phrase of the first article of the constitution:

Article 1er :
La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l'égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d'origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances. Son organisation est décentralisée.

Laïque, which I can only translate to English as lay, means non-affiliated to the church. You disregard that this lay stand in the constitution is strong enough to have made it to the first phrase of the text. In fact, it is so strong that there are countless reflections of the lay stand in individual laws. One of which is the prohibition of religious symbols in schools.

You say it is discrimination, because it's a prohibition affecting religious people and not atheists. It's a nonsensical argument. Atheists aren't affected because the law affects religion and religious symbols, which do not constitute part of an atheists life. It's a bit like saying that prohibition of drinking in the street is discriminatory because it affects alcohol drinkers only. It would be discriminatory if it singled out a group. It does not. It establishes a rule that everyone must follow. And it affects the vast majority of Frenchmen.

You do not get it. Muslims are obliged to use MEANS, not to ACHIEVE goals. Achievement is GRANTED as a gift from the Creator who has created all this world and time and space, who decreed "Be, and it became". And in that aspect we will be still obeying religious laws in the first hand, while superficially obeying the civil laws of France. We are fine with that. It is not without us. Earth is wide, we can leave to other places. We will leave the world in less than 3 sec actually (that is the length of life compared to eternity of Paradise or Hell).

You do understand that this is the same kind of rhetoric used by suicide terrorists who blew themselves up in the WTC. It's frightening to see so much blind faith.

Europe has long reached the enlightenment that blind faith produces blind horror. I won't use present events or Muslim History as it would put you in the defensive. Look at European/Christian history (I'm Christian btw, not atheist). Look at our own History, with witch hunting, torture, holy wars and it's obvious that blind faith produces powerful leaders. If History has taught us something is that power *always* corrupts. Religious leaders are human and corruptible as humans are.

Religion quality is not at stake here. The central tenet of Christianism is "Love others as you love thyself" or, put another way "Do unto others as you would do to yourself". There is no best life objective than that. Well, this same religion produced horror over and over. This only stopped when religion no longer attracted power. After it ceased to be in power, the Vatican became a center of goodwill and peace.

Church and State separation is a good thing. Europe has achieved it, the Muslim culture didn't get there yet. Measures to defend it are needed, may be inconvenient, but are being applied with a reasonable level of good sense. I really do not understand how the Muslim world takes this as a personal attack.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Listen, you keep talking on a different subject. I will go somewhere else. My job is done here.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

No need to concede to me. Study my points and you'll find out I'm right and your opinion is based on the false premise that Muslims are persecuted in France.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Your arrogance is funny. My experience with other people tells me that arrogance when a person lacks knowledge or sense of being right.

The claims that Muslims are not persecuted in France is absurd. Government is telling Muslims - "amend your religion, your beliefs or out of school".

I am telling you that according to the Qur'an and Sunnah it is obligatory for Muslim women to wear a headscarf all the time they are in the public place (in front of men that are not their husbands, fathers sons or close relatives).

It is not my personal opinion, but opinion of all reliable scholars (which is vast majority of Islamic scholars). You, being uneducated in Islam (you do not have any credibility in that) cannot claim anything on this matter, and have to admit that this is a fact. Millions of Muslims in France and other countries share this opinion.

This is one component of the story.

After knowing that claiming that frohibition of Hijab - proper Islamic cover of the female body - in French schools is not persecution is absurd. You already agreed that is not necessary now, but you are arrogantly saying that "there is no harm".

I agreed with you: there is no harm to Muslims. Persecution is actually good for Muslims, they just become stronger in Faith and higher chances of getting into Paradise. Bring it on!

There IS harm though. There is harm to a French society, harm to minds of the people who are told a big lie that human rights are respected and on top of the priorities in France.

You know what happens after people are told a big lie for a long time? Eventually they learn the truth and there is a hangover. That is what happened to people of Soviet Russia. That is what happened to Germans after WWII and after being brainwashed by goebbelsian propaganda.

That is what is happening to French people.

So, again, pity yourself, not Muslims.

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

Your arrogance is funny.

You ran out of arguments and did not concede. I didn't ever expect you to concede. I just hoped that once your apparent anger on the discussion ended, the ideas I've expressed flourished. It takes a leap to see the other person's perspective and I never saw that leap in your texts.

The claims that Muslims are not persecuted in France is absurd. Government is telling Muslims - "amend your religion, your beliefs or out of school".

Once and again, you are taking the message of the government personally, even after I've explained the origin, proven it is older than any person alive and not targeted specifically at Muslims. In simpler terms, the French government is saying: "France is a lay country.". The rest is consequence. Unfortunately for your anger, persecution feelings and generic tendency to blow things up, we are not persecuting Muslims.

I'm talking you hear me but do not listen. Sorry, I quit banging my head against a hard place. Save these texts and re-read them when you gain a bit more perspective into the world. I recommend studying another culture's history. If you resent Europe for some reason, study China history from Confucius (~500BC) to Mao. Observe the effect of religion in their society, their reaction and the result

I am telling you that according to the Qur'an and Sunnah it is obligatory for Muslim women to wear a headscarf all the time they are in the public place (in front of men that are not their husbands, fathers sons or close relatives).

You, being uneducated in Islam (you do not have any credibility in that) cannot claim anything on this matter, and have to admit that this is a fact. Millions of Muslims in France and other countries share this opinion.

You definitely do not understand the result of living in a lay country. Sunday mess is mandatory for catholics. Vote is mandatory for French citizens. Imagine there is an election requiring all-day presence on a sunday. Catholics must forfeit mess and attend the election.

Don't like it? Easy. French is a democracy. Vote for a candidate that supports a religious government. Good luck.

BTW, I am educated in Islam even if not a follower. I've read and studied the Koran. The passage you refer is by no means accepted universally. Not that it makes any difference in the discussion...

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

France is a lay country "beying lay" is light years away from the law in discussion (you admitted that). So it is not about THAT constitutional cornerstone of the country. It is about the fact that stomping religious rights of people is much more important than freedom.

My point is that all declarations of freedom in France is just handwaving, it means nothing.

Observe the effect of religion in their society, their reaction and the result Please respect my time and save your arrogance for someone else. How old are you? What is your education? Tell me something more about yourself that will prompt me to have more respect to your words. So far I hear a talking mouthpiece of atheistic propaganda only, and why would I listen to the advices of that? So please respect my time and give me one sentence version of Chinese history. Otherwise your words are just handwaving.

Catholics must forfeit mess and attend the election. I do not see a problem here at all. As it is not a problem of Muslims, I keep telling you, but you do not seem to understand, because if person believes in God, he or she will put God's commandment above all human-made laws. So religious people would go to mess and then vote. It is not an all day event, isn't? Muslims will home-school their daughters, no problem.

The effect of the idiocy of French laws and it's IDIOCY is it's self-destructiveness, self-contradiction. You cannot declare religious freedoms or any freedoms in the morning and restrict those freedoms in the evening. Government is for the people. In USA, so hated by Europeans, if Mexicans or Dominicans do not understand English, then government uses Spanish, wildly, in France, if a tourist does not understand French and speaks English, he is publicly humiliated, yelled at, denied service, etc...

So if a large portion of population is having difficulty going to election at certain day, then it should be made a different day, on in two days or three days. Jews do it on Sunday, Catholics do it on Saturday. No problem. It is a problem only for a fascist atheistic hypocratic state that France is right now.

You defend excesses of the law, saying there is no harm. That makes you a fascist, Professor.

The passage you refer is by no means accepted universally. That is nonsense. If someone accept a single letter of Qur'an, he is not Muslim. You do not know the basics. Why don't you go and study better before talking on the subject?

Re:US?

[Khazunga]

So it is not about THAT constitutional cornerstone of the country. It is about the fact that stomping religious rights of people is much more important than freedom.

Limiting the effect of religious leaders on society has historically produced good results on overall freedom. Are you asserting that people have more freedom in islamic countries? Do they have the freedom to be anti-islamic? We have satanic groups here. They're non-dangerous, but people are entitled to them in the name of freedom. Don't throw stones when you have glass doors.

Freedom is never absolute. It's always necessary to draw lines and limits on freedom. Western civilizations reached a good compromise. It's not optimal, but it is one of the best.

My point is that all declarations of freedom in France is just handwaving, it means nothing.

Because it affected you and your religion? Boohoo. It affects others too, and you don't see them waving discrimination accusations.

You cannot declare religious freedoms or any freedoms in the morning and restrict those freedoms in the evening.

...

It is a problem only for a fascist atheistic hypocratic state that France is right now.

And there you go again with the decline theory. Again I repeat: The French Revolution happened in the late XVIII century. Over two hundred years ago. This separation between church and state happened then. Mind you, then it was much worse than it is now, because religious orders were persecuted. Now people are free to follow their religion.

That makes you a fascist, Professor.

And thus we hit Godwin's Law. This thread is now closed. I won't answer nor read anymore.

Re:US?

[mapkinase]

Limiting the effect of religious leaders on society has historically produced good results on overall freedom.

What religious leaders are you talking about in this case of shameless undressing people? What are you smoking?

Are you asserting that people have more freedom in islamic countries? Nope. Muslims are not obscessed with freedom, Islamic Shariah has completely different fundament.

Do they have the freedom to be anti-islamic?Nope. It is not Islamic or anti-Islamic, it is just certain freedom in the limits of the moment, that is it.

Don't throw stones when you have glass doors. What "stories" I am "throwing"?

Western civilizations reached a good compromise. It's not optimal, but it is one of the best. And the proof of that is?

Because it affected you and your religion? No. That made me noticing it, not affecting me or my religion. It is also the most outrageous of hypocrises in France. I brought another example (language) as well.

It affects others too, and you don't see them waving discrimination accusations. Because they are faithless, because wearing a cross outside of your clothes is not a religious obligation (ask Christians), because rich orthodox Jews have money to send their orthodox kids to private yeshivas. That is why. Got it?

Now people are free to follow their religion. You are an idiot. I am talking to an idiot. i just explained you, idiot, that they are not "free" as you claim.

Godwin law is not about fascists, it is about Nazis and Hitler. I use correct words.

Get lost, idiot.