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New Gentoo 2007.0 Release Gets Mixed Review
lisah writes "Gentoo's recently released version 2007.0 gets a fair-to-middling review from Linux.com. Installation was a headache from the live CD and DVD versions, but the Gentoo Linux Installer saved the day and gets high marks for being 'far better than it's predecessor.' The user experience is also mixed — on the one hand, the distribution boots quickly, has great hardware support, and new, user-friendly artwork. On the other hand, 'for some strange reason, the installed Gentoo doesn't allow normal users to run any administrative applications.' Overall, it doesn't look like Gentoo offers any compelling reasons to switch to 'Secret Sauce' if they're happy with their current, uh, flavor."
Yes, but would it run an Indy car?
Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
Ease of installation is not one of the drawing points of Gentoo. In fact, for some of us, an arcane installation procedure is the main draw...nothing teaches you more about linux than having to choose, configure, and compile every single piece of the OS.
2007.0 already? And I only just finished compiling 2006.0!
I'll probably be modded down for this...
while I appreciate a good gui install, and the previous 2006.1 gentoo gui install was QAB, I'd have to agree with the review that any step forward is a good step. Also agreeing with the article, the CLI install is still the way to go and even if the gui install worked flawlessly I think I'd still choose the CLI install method over it. Once everything is installed, the review finds several things they say "don't work", but that is just the nature of the "do it yourself"/"linux my way" mentality of Gentoo. Has this realease turned Gentoo in to Ubuntu? No, and thankfully it hasn't. I believe Arch might be more up your alley if that is what you are looking for.
I get the scripted installer part for admins, but why would a distro like Gentoo, which has already found its niche, violate that niche by dumping development time into a "newbie" installer? It's not as though I'm really bothered by it, but it seems like they've been content to leave the super-easy install to the Fedora and Ubuntu's of the world... even if it meant lesser uptake on their own distro. Does this new installer still download and compile everything from source? Just seems like it takes the focus off a specialized-install-for-all and puts it squarely on increasing the userbase. Why the change?
The reason is "security". Login root or sudo to run admin apps.
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Portage will remind you that it has an update and you should install it after you `emerge --sync`. Updating portage should be the first thing you do before you `emerge -NDu world`
;)
If you're getting to the point that you're getting incompatible updates with your existing setup, then you can always try `emerge -NDuep` and look at the resulting list it'll give you (p is for preview). From that, `emerge -C` anything you don't use any more, and then drop the 'p' from the command above and re-run it. It'll re-compile everything on your system with the latest packages, meaning that you should hopefully avoid the incompatibilities you're referring to.
Then again, if all that looks too much to do, Gentoo might not be for you?
NeoThermic
Use my link above, or to view my server, NeoThermic.com
Gentoo isn't so much a distro as an educational game. If your system works better than an Ubuntu box, you're winning.
/etc and unpack the latest stage3 tarball on top of your installation
There's always a way to fix these problems.
1. Use 'quickpkg' to save important things like Python before you break them
2. Plow over broken dependencies with 'emerge -C'
3. revdep-rebuild when needed
4. If it doesn't work, try the ~x86 package
6. emerge -uDNv world
7. wait a day, emerge --sync, try again
8. update often!! stale systems are harder to update
And the craziest trick of all....
9. backup your
One of those things should fix just about any update problem you encounter
I use Gentoo on servers because of the flexibility. I can specify exactly what I need. I can generate custom ebuilds easily (they are just shell scripts after all). In fact I can make entire installable custom *distros* for in-house apps and combinations of libraries, etc. I can pin specific packages to specific versions. I can set the build flags for each individual app. I can selectively override the Gentoo-supplied ebuilds with overlays. I can keep track of all my config files and track changes with RCS. I can install multiple versions of PHP, MySQL, Java, whatever, and keep it all straight. This is why I use Gentoo.
I really don't give a shit about a pretty installer. Let Gentoo focus on the power-user niche please, and if you don't like it, use something else.
GUI installation is moot to most Gentoo users. If you want a nice, easy graphical installer and easy system administration go download Ubuntu, it fills that niche very well. However, if you want to toil and trouble to build an optimized system from scratch then Gentoo is still the best solution.
'for some strange reason, the installed Gentoo doesn't allow normal users to run any administrative applications.'
Gentoo is set up the same way as older Unices for privilege escalation. You cannot su if you are not a member of the wheel group.
~ C.
what part is true?
* The inability to use the box while compiling (not true - I do stuff when compiling all the time, not what is being compiled mind you).
* Slashdot saying BSDs are 1337? Funny, posts saying that they like BSD tend to get modded "Troll"
* That circular dependancies are the only thing to cause Dep-hell? I've had plenty of cases where I have had "Package A" and "Package B", where both required "Package C" of differing versions, where neither would accept the same version of C, and the two versions of C didn't want to coexist. Maybe more helical than circular...
Sorry, while some of it is true in some cases, I find the lot of it quite not funny.
And no, I don't use Gentoo. While emerge has treated me better than some of the alternatives in the Linux world, it's not quite as hassle-free as I'd like.
34486853790
Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
It does have some of the best documentation I have come across. In the form of the gentoo-wiki site. I always find what I need in that site, even when fixing problems with other distros. That site deserved a mention for being so damn good, but I forgot to place it in my original post.
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
Like with everything else it has it's advantages and it's disadvantages
/etc/init.d scripts has been placed into common functions referenced elsewhere
it all depends on what you want to use it for
(it's a bit like hitting a screw with a hammer and saying, hmmm this isn't going into the wall very well)
if you want something that's going to work first time, and that your not going to have to arse about setting up
(e.g. a commercial environment) then go with a rpm solution like redhat or suse (this way you've always got the option of support as well at the same time)
If you want something for running the latest cutting edge software and damned the consequences
the sort of person that would make the attempt at building his own conservatory on the side of his house go for Gentoo
Disadvantages
1. it's source based
which can mean less stable / well tested
ultimately gentoo is a source based dist, which means any binary files you end up with won't have been tested
and there's no guarantee of behavior as it all depends on how things have been linked
2. rpm's do some amount of checking when installing the binary, with gentoo it's assumed that whatever has been compiled is correct
(unless make install throws up an error during the build process or you write some checking into the script it's not always possible to guarantee that everything is installed the way it's supposed to be
admitily problems are rare but do crop up now and again
3. it takes ages to compile / install etc
the trade-off here is having access to the latest stuff, so I'm happy with this one
Advantages
1. if you want to get something working that's only just been released
it takes me 5 mins to write an ebuild script
it takes much longer to write an rpm spec file
(this especially comes in handy when your trying to add / remove patches / custom graft as part of the script)
the reason for this is a lot of the common stuff has been functionalised (is that a word?) into eclass files
this makes the whole thing default to a certain common behavior unless overridden in the script
also you don't have to list all the files that should be installed as it works it out for itself all auto-magically
in an ideal scenario for rpm you'd at least have both options depending on the use of the system (do some checking, don't do some checking)
ideally I'd really like rpm to take on some of the same advantages as this one (why not?, it might need testing / change of spec files but it'd be well worth it)
2. a lot of the scripts that form the bootup are much more up-to-date
again most of the stuff in the
it's part of the whole "if it's not broke don't fix it" thing, which in principle gives advantages to commonality if everyone is using the same sort of
startup scripts if your writing a RPM for several dists and may be more stable / tested
but the gentoo method is much simpler to write for / more automated
3. it's sourced based
which means it'll run on pretty much anything, any weird ass bit of hardware you can throw at it (usually)
(PS3 hint hint)
Personally I'm confident I can fix most things when they go wrong in the portage tree, via an overlay (or at least have the patience to wait for it to be fixed). but for the average Joe user in an office that couldn't give a monkey's for that sort of thing something binary / rpm is better suited
There's probably lots of stuff I've missed here but the general idea is
if you like home brew go to Gentoo (mmm tasty brew)
If you like it plain and flat go for Red Hat
I hear your frustrations, because I've been there before. I've been running Gentoo exclusively on all of my varied machines for a little over 4 years now, and non-exclusively (dual booting Windows) for almost 6.
But Gentoo is not a distribution. It's really more of a meta-distribution. It can be tailored to just about anything you want, but you need to be willing to take ownership of it and work with it.
If you're looking for your server to Just Work (tm), then by all means, go get SuSe or Mandriva or Ubuntu or Fedora or some other distro with precompiled binaries and a slick installer program. Gentoo's not for everyone. But, if you're looking for fine-grained control over your operating system with some handy scripts to help you out along the way, then you have to be willing to get your hands a little dirty.
I picked up Gentoo as an educational tool; I figured building it from scratch was the best way to learn about Linux, and I was right. Since then, I've stayed with Gentoo because I like the flexibility it gives me, and because at heart I really just enjoy building things. Right now I have Gentoo installed on two servers, a desktop and a laptop at home, and I'm working on building a tiny MythTV frontend that will boot from a USB key (under 100MB). Gentoo's flexible enough to allow me to do that, but then again, I'm willing to sit with it until it's right.
Gentoo never has been and never will be a Just Works (tm) operating system. It's for the hobbyists, the administrators, the students: anyone who wants a much finer grain control over their system. If that's not for you, then no one at Gentoo will hold a grudge.
For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
Or, if you're hardcore as Gentooers like to think they are,
/etc/make.profile /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2007.0
/usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2007.0 /etc/make.profile
# ln -snf
Real hardcore Gentooers would get the parameters the right way around.
ln -snf
Not wishing to rock the boat, and not having a problem with gentoo per se, initially I maintained the status quo.
A few weeks ago, I made a decision. Future server rollouts will be Debian, Gentoo will slowly be discontinued. The reason is nothing to do with installation - I've got enough experience with it that I could install Gentoo in my sleep with my hands tied behind my back.
The problem is one of maintenance. With Debian or RedHat or Mandriva or almost any other Linux distribution, there's a specific version. A line in the sand, if you will, which states "this is what version we're dealing with".
Gentoo gets rid of all that, in favour of individual packages being marked stable/masked ("unstable")/hard masked ("very unstable, will break things, you have been warned"). In theory, you never have to do a major version upgrade of a Gentoo system. You just install everything that's marked stable that you want, if you need something specific that hasn't been marked stable you unmask it. A bit like running Debian Stable with the odd package from the testing branch.
This sounds great, until I now point out the problem.... Gentoo suffers from bit rot. Before you mark me down as a troll, let me explain. Packages still turnover as they age. Eventually, packages are marked obsolete - ie. dropped from portage altogether - and unless you've already taken account of this possibility, once that happens it's a bugger to reinstall them. And once a package is dropped because it's obsolete, sooner or later other packages won't take account of the older versions quirks and version dependencies become at least partly down to luck. Good luck rebuilding a system which has failed with the exact same versions of all the packages it had on there - if it's not been updated in a while and you haven't accounted for such a possibility, the task is to all practical purposes impossible. Combine this with package QA which frankly is nothing like that of Debian - "Stable" generally means "It doesn't cause anyones individual PC to keel over horribly", not "It plays nicely with everything else in the network like it's suppsoed to" - and you've got a recipe for long drawn-out pain if you're trying to run Gentoo on anything more than a few systems.
The only solutions that I've found are:
Note that I've omitted "keep a copy of every package you install" or "make a note of the version of every package you install". These are effectively useless because ebuilds frequently use the packages sourceforge site to download the code from, and if the package moves or the version that you have in your (old) copy of the portage database is removed from sourceforge, you can't install that package and you've got to do an emerge --sync to get an updated ebuild (and an updated everything else in the process). It's not like any other distribution where the mirrors keep a copy of every package so it doesn't much matter if the upstream server on which the project is hosted breaks somehow. Unless you keep every package from day 1 complete with all its dep