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A Look Beneath the 'Surface'
Hajsky writes "Ars Technica takes a closer look at Microsoft's new "Surface" tabletop device. Turns out that Surface isn't actually a touchscreen at all, but uses five cameras located in the table's base to record movement and touch. 'The five cameras are near-infrared devices, but that's not because they are trying to read heat signatures from fingertips (or other body parts) on the table. Instead, it's because the entire surface of Surface is bathed in light; by illuminating the top of the table, the cameras can easily see when things are placed on it. Shining colored light across the surface of the table would spoil the effect that Microsoft wants, so near-infrared light is used for invisible illumination.' The whole setup runs on a Core 2 Duo and off-the-shelf hardware, and can handle 52 simultaneous touches." jfanning wrote with a link to an overview of similar technology used in the Helsinki 'CityWall'. The article she provides discusses the unique public display, and has an in-depth video on the way these kinds of setups work.
The video in yesterday's post DID say that the whole thing was run by five cameras. Doesn't it still make a touchscreen if stuff happens when you touch it? Why woudl it be any less of a touch screen if it sees you touchign it instead of feeling it?
Jeff Han lead project at NYU to produce multi-touch display technology and some demo applications.
Take a look at the original work at NYU: http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/
And the spin-off company by the same guys to develop the technology: http://www.perspectivepixel.com/
Very cool stuff. If you look closely, you can tell that they're running it on GNU/Linux.
Hopefully, they'll chose to collaborate with the X and kernel guys to create proper generic interfaces for multi-touch pointing device input.
http://tinker.it/now/2007/02/28/multitouch-table-e xperiment/
- multi-touch-table/- projected-table-284137.php
* 1 panel of plexiglass 8mm thickness
* 2 strips of IR LEDs (18 LED per strip)
* 2 sheets of tracing paper
* 1 projector
* 1 mirror
* 1 analog camera sensitive to IR light
* 1 IR filter for the camera
* 1 computer
The traking was done using vvvv. http://vvvv.org/tiki-index.php
==============
Also See:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/01/build-your-own
http://www.slashgear.com/make-your-own-multitouch
So I wonder if I got six of my friends and we all touched the Surface at the same time with all of our fingers. Would that produce the Blue Surface Of Death? Or would it drive the bloody thing psychizo?
Please note, I use WIndows, I use Linux, and I use Mac OS X, and am an apologist for none of them, but to put it bluntly, I have read much about this supposed innovation and it leaves me wanting tremendously. It requires so many ifs and ands that I would find it impractical in all but the most specialized settings.
For instance, from what I understand (though I may very well be mistaken), the table can read various things on it. That's great, but your body (or any part of it) better not be obscuring the infrared bath, otherwise it will look like your arm also is supposed to be indexed on it.
Also, the whole multitouch thing seems a bit overrated. Now, before anyone jumps on my back, I understand its implications to graphic manipulation, photo manipulation, engineering, and architecture, but it seems like it would be a rather trivial thing to implement on a touchscreen device, if there was a need. First off it has to be big, to allow the artist to use it comfortably, but then the artist has to keep it clear of any clutter, less it mistake the clutter for fingers.
Not only that, but the damned thing isn't all that new. I remember a documentary on Discovery about "anti-terrorism" efforts in the United States. The Department of Defense had something very similar in that they could call up any place in any city via live satellite imagery and manipulate it in real-time via their hands. They claimed it was the most advanced such display in the world, and frankly it was damned cool. It didn't rely on a bathing infrared light and cameras, it was touch sensitive, and you could use one hand to adjust pitch while simultaneously adjusting yaw with both hands.
Frankly, this device is sounding more and more like the iLoo (joke) from Microsoft.
I can't help but wonder how they will compensate for parallax between users' eyes, fingertips, and the screen objects. I'd imagine that the display panel will be relatively thick for structural reasons and that most users will be sitting far off the central axis of the table (i.e., the coffee-table scenario). This means that the image on the screen will be displaced with respect to the line sight from eyeball to fingertip. Moreover different people sitting around the table will see different parallax displacements between fingertips and the screen. Without some compensation for this, the device will be frustrating to use because it won't be intuitive as to where to touch the table top to "touch" an underlying display object. People will often touch the screen where they think they should only to find they've grabbed the object next to the one they really wanted.
P.S. Acrylic is a horrible choice of material for the top as it scratches too easily.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Does anybody remember the HP touchscreen computer (from back in the Lisa days) which bombed miserably because people couldn't hold their arms up for hours on end? The thing about a mouse or trackball is that a little motion produces a lot of motion of the cursor - without fatigue.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
1. the cheap 'touch technology' - the infrared cams
2. the cheap big screen - rear projection
3. multi touch input software
kudos for putting the package together but was under the impression this was actually done by another company with close relations to MS?
So if I wanted to use this thing as a coffee table, which in many homes sits in front of the couch, I would then have to run a powercord across the floor to this 'table'? Nice.
How much power does this thing consume? Wonder what happens to it if you spill a drink on the surface.
A camera doesn't just detect touch, it can detect movement, objects, people, etc. For example, if you where in a conference room, and someone lifted a chair to throw, then the cameras could identify the object being thrown, who is throwing it, and whom it was aimed at, and then play the appropriate sound file DUCK.wav!!!
ffs
I'm a rabbit startled by the headlights of life
Could this be a forerunner of a gaming tabletop? All the terrain, units and record keeping are kept for you as you play on a largish surface. Could be pretty cool.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
That would, btw, be a great password method. Place your palm down on it to login.
As far as automated fortune telling, that would certainly be the app that many people would come over to try first.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCARS
:) Nothing would be difficult to pop a keyboard onto the screen for typing, reszing it to you needs, hell even moving keys where you want them.
Simple and to the point, no longer will the interface have to suit one person, with the right software it could recognize what side you are sitting on, and even who you are, and then customize the interface to you. A set of priorities, or even simple touch zones, could keep it set to the primary person or allow quick changes.
This opens up more than manipulation to the masses, it introduces who new methods of using technology to them and that is what I enjoy most about it. I look forward to games on it
The possibilities of an easy to touch and interact surface are boundless. Microsoft is just going to be the most out there company with it... others will follow. I say, put it in front of children who are not computer literate and see what they do with it. If its truly a new paradigm in usability that would be a great test.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Camera-based multitouch surfaces were first built about 20 years ago. They're nice but not all that useful.
So how exactly does one simulate 52 simultaneous touches? 5 people with 10 fingers plus 2 toes from one person?
Many of the comments in the previous news post were about how the touch screen would be unsafe for regular coffee-table use. This obviously negates that to some extent, since we can now just the top at a much lower cost, presumably, than was previously thought. (Although large pieces of glass custom-cut to the right size aren't cheap either)
--Edward Dassmesser
It's pretty obvious that this "innovation" is just one of many projects trying to bridge the traditional computer screen with tangible objects. The post mentions one of the other public projects. I also remember seeing this exact sort of thing at the MIT Media Lab 5 years ago and apparently it's still being developed. The real test is how useful and flexible the interface can become. Just like with the motion sensing in the Wii controllers, you can develop stuff all you want but until you make it cool, easy to use, easy to program, and introduce it to a mass market, it's really just a novelty.
Now, don't get me wrong, theres not a single MS product that comes to mind that I would consider to be all that innovative, but lets give credit where credit is due. Yes this idea has been done before. Yes this idea has been implemented better. But MS is currently the only company thats pushing this as a viable product. There can be a zillion different MAKE projects and DIY guides to make this thing only better, but if you want a future where you can walk into the store and purchase a multi touch screen table top device, this is clearly the OSFP to do so. MS may be an evil corporation with a crappy OS, but in this case they are moving technology forward, cut them a break.
Browse at -1 to keep an eye out for abuses.
If this is the same thing that Bill demoed a couple months ago, at that conference where everyone was expecting the new 360 to be announced (and wasn't), I thought it was pretty obvious that it wasn't an actual touch screen, and that it would be detecting your motions.
I must be missing something.
I wasn't that impressed with the whole thing. Yes, the way it handles external storage devices placed on the surface is slick and a few of the UI features use the interface well but overall it doesn't seem very interesting. At least not nearly interesting enough to live up to the hype I've heard over the last two days.
I've heard claims about how this will revolutionize the way we interact with computers. Someone explain what new things I'll be able to do with this. Some explain how I'll be able to do old things better. (What, am I supposed to send all of my emails as finger-paint jpegs?)
Only one word for this: VAPORWARE
...and can handle 52 simultaneous touches.
Gaming Geek Reference: Does this limitation remind anyone else of the old solution to D&D enemies with stoneskin - throwing pebbles/gold pieces at 'em until you wear out their stoneskins?
I got 53 cents worth of pennies around here somewhere. Let's see what happens!
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
The more I think about it, this table (or whatever they end up calling it) could be the computing device that finally succeeds in finding its way into peoples' living rooms. People don't want to compute off of their TV, they only want their TV to display things, that's why every attempt to combine the internet with a TV has pretty much failed. But imagine this device somehow integrated into your coffee table and using it to order and pay for a pizza, using it to control your home lighting and thermostat, using it to look at photos, magazines, catalogues, pay your bills, or using it to sort through your home media library of music and movies. The list goes on and on. The technology will have to get better, the cost will have to come down, it will have to be simple to use, and the applications will have to be developed flawlessly, but I actually think Microsoft could pull it off. If Apple created this people would be gushing over it because they would know that Apple would succeed in doing all of the above. Microsoft should pour a lot of money and resources into this, because they might be on to something big. I hope they pull it off; there isn't enough innovation out there these days, too many copy cat devices. It's time for something new and this could be it.
One thing I've notice with most microsoft products is that they give them generic names. This makes it very hard to search on the web for their products. Is it a strategy?
...When I spill coffee on it!
It's funny how everyone is claiming they've seen/had this idea before, and it a case of MS "stealing" and claming innovation again.
If it was Apple and that came out with the iTable people would be cuming all over themselves to be the first to praise/order/or be an expert on it.
You too can build your own Surface: reacTable, Wikipedia article.
Oh wait, it can only keep track of 52 objects... better make that "checkers", not chess!
Seriously, a "Surface" machine in a busy public place is going to be a smeared mess within an hour. I wonder if the MSFT people have thought of this. I can just imagine my wife: "Ewww...I'm not going to touch that..."
The article mentioned that the device uses a rear projector for the screen, so they could easily have the scattering surface (what the image is projected onto) be the topmost layer (or beneath a very thin protective layer), resting on top of the thick structural portion (transparent glass or plastic).
Sure it looks nice when you put a camera on top of it and the picture pops out, but I don't think it's very scalable in the age of multi-gigabyte flash cards, or more then one flash card for that matter. You also have to be careful not to put a stray finger down while dragging things. Seems to be one of the things that looks better when someone else is using it.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
imagine if they had these as pizza hut and you could play ms pacman on it
This stuff has been going on longer than that. Bill Buxton (now at Microsoft, ex of Alias, PARC, University of Toronto) has a page showing some of the history of multi-touch interfaces:
http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html
Can't wait to put my porn collection on "surface". I hope the "52 simultaneous touches" includes slapping.
But I can't see it in the home.
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... oh, wait, never mind.
I for one welcome our date-watching tennis table overlords and look forward to watching them deal with power surges
If I wanted to live in Red Russia, I'd have
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Y'know.. there's a really good reason why television screens are situated in the vertical plane.. because we can sit on chairs and watch them without getting back ache. That's also a good reason why our computer monitors are situated the same way. So.. going to something that's horizontal is a recipe for uber-bad ergonomics and back ache with any sort of extended use.
When people come round and you want to show them photographs, home movies, or some crap that's on your computer or network.. who in their right mind is going to hunch over a table? It's about as convenient as reading a newspaper together.
I remember HP came out with a few workstations (back in those days workstation meant beefy desktop computer) with touch sensitive (amber, if I recall correctly) screens, where they used infrared LEDs and sensors, that formed an invisible grid on the screen. NOw MS uses cameras as sensors, but heck if this isn't the same thing.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
The projector resolution is currently 1024 x 768, according to the Popular Mechanics article. The "touchscreen" camera resolution works out to about 1280 x 960. Not exactly high; hopefully this can be improved by the time I need to replace my coffee table...
There's some good details in that article, a nice diagram and some more in-depth videos too.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
His brain's overloading
It has a chocolate coating
Textbook case for Sigmund Freud
Freakazoid! Freakazoid!
I saw it once for sale at the Stanford student store, and noticed one thing that immediately made it an unattractive purchase -- the screen was covered with greasy fingerprints. It wasn't a graphical UI, so the resolution of the touch-grid was basically enough to have a simple grid of finger-tip sized "buttons." For years after we made fun of it whenever accidentally touching our own computer screens and leaving behind fingerprints. "Whoops, this isn't an HP."
--
Franklin Brauner
ftp://ftp.merl.com/pub/DiamondTouch/videos/Diamond Touch Multi-User Boxes.wmv (diamondtouch.merl.com)
Pre-Surface, but shows some more cool applications for a multi-touch interface.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
This reminds me of a (very cool) audio/visual project called reactable. Wikipedia article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReacTable
Looks like iBar? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6509090414 611358862&q=bar+projectors&hl=en
This stuff has been around for awhile...
Cool, so a more precise version could be implemented by utilizing ultraviolet light instead. Plus, it would give you a tan as you used it. AH! MY EYES!!!
im guessing not, since the cameras would only be able to see whats on top, not underneath.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Apple came up with iPhone, a tiny handheld device with multi-point touchscreen. Microsoft tried to copy them, but they just couldn't fit the internals into anything handheld-sized so they said "Screw minimization" and came up with a table-sized device.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Well I am not at all a M$ fanboy. But this time I'll have to admit there is something from M$ that can be put into the category of "innovation". The technology may be not new, but the way they have packaged existing technologies into a sell-able product is awesome. So far, MS has been copying blatantly; from Zune to Xbox. This is something that it can call as it's own. But it would be interesting to see whether there are any takers.
I'm amazed the Domino only has eight bits available as a "key" to identify the object. 256 possible object types? That seems ludicrously limiting to me. Why wouldn't they develop a sixteen, or even thirty-two, bit key to promote expandability? Heck, make it thirty-two bits, with the first eight bits signifying "category", the next sixteen signifying "description", and the last eight signifying "subclass". Then you could have a set of chess pieces in the category "Game Pieces", the description "Chess Pieces", and the subclasses "Black Pawn", "White Rook", et cetera. Have these IDs standardized across the industry, and now you have an interface capable of identifying a ton of different objects "at a glance".
Great. Now I have an innovative (simulated) touchscreen product that lets me and another person sit around the table, work on the same stuff, and both get the same awful neck cramps. This'll really help build friendships in line for aspirin at the drug store.
This post should not have been modded Troll... this is a very valid concern. Hunching over it for extended periods of time will not be comfortable.
... to see where this came from. Microsoft, the great "Innovator" does it again.
& search=Search
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=reactable
Intuilab, see : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgOuZ2jJQBc And it is quite old
That doesn't look very "safe".
I've been waiting for something like this for a couple years now, since I've started working as a draftsman. The amount of paper that companies use for mailing out proposals/revisions/mark-ups is ridiculous. Now they can e-mail a drawing package to whomever, and they can then view at least Arch D drawings (24"x36") easily, and could even use a "red pen" to mark up drawings, and then e-mail the revised drawing package back.
At that point, you could even re-introduce the "drafting table" with integrated AutoCAD or similar. I would love to see this sort of thing as mandatory as a plotter.
I personally like the interface, but the technology backing the interface needs some work before I can see it being used in everyday life. I think they could expand upon the initial design using some updates to some new technologies we have all seen.
Screen: Replace the screen surface with the new 'ePaper' or thin film screen materials. Allow tracking of objects(& fingers) via a method similar to those laser based keyboards(just make it infrared). Have it talk to any standard PC via wirelessUSB or nextgen Bluetooth or even heck plain old wired USB at the start. This allows you to make the unit mobile. You take it with you and roll the mat out onto any surface and go to work. With some improvements into ePaper or similar tech to reach LCD quality this would be a hit. Or, develop an LCD surface to do the same thing, with the cost of flat panel monitors dropping like a rock you can get a 24-30" LCD panel for relatively cheaply, addition of touch sensors on the screen give you most of the interface (minus the "dot" recognition)
Device links: Connections via wireless device recognition or wirelessUSB/Blutooth would also work. Just have detected devices show up in a side dock (ala dashboard). This mean no cameras and will work with any consumer products already enabled with wireless communication. Wired devices would also supported using a dash like interface.
I guess what it boils down to, is I just don't see the need for large furniture and complex camera systems to get a system that would be more useful without them. The nifty part of this is the multi-touch interface and the devices intercommunication through the UI.