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PC Call Centers Garner Lowest Satisfaction Score

Lucas123 writes "The University of Michigan took its first American Customer Satisfaction survey and found that of six industries measured for the Customers' Call Center Satisfaction Index, the PC industry received the lowest score, according to a Computerworld story. 'According to the survey, nearly 73% of the people who have bad experiences with their PC companies' call centers said they will consider purchasing their next PCs from another company, while 85% of customers who had their problems resolved by calling a PC call center said they would continue doing business with the company. Other calls centers included in the survey included banking, cell phone service, cable and satellite television, and insurance.'"

223 comments

  1. Profit! by slapout · · Score: 4, Funny


    1. Start computer company
    2. Have good tech support
    3. Profit!!!

    Wait, somethings not right ...

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    1. Re:Profit! by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That a great start, but then.

      1)want to make more money
      2) cut back on call center
      3) profit!....this quarter.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's been done. The company is called Apple.

    3. Re:Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4. Get brought out by a chain store that sells computers and completely lose track of the "good" part of #2.

    4. Re:Profit! by KillerCow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that the margins in the PC industry are razor thin, and with the number of people needed to man those phones, they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

      Retail customers aren't willing to pay for quality tech support. [Corporates are though.]

      Even if they were able to pay them more (which they aren't), you aren't going to get good people who know what they are doing to sit on a phone all day every day dealing with angry/frustrated customers. No one ever calls tech support to tell them how happy they are with their purchase. I was a tech for a year, and it was horrible. You only get angry/upset people talking to you, and most of the problems can be resolved by following a script.

      Add to this the PHBs who measure your performance based on average call times (not in actually resolving issues) and you get yourself micro-managed into mediocrity. Good people don't like being told to do a shitty job, and they will leave.

      If you've got the skills to be a good tech, you can make more money doing a job that is more satisfying somewhere else.

    5. Re:Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It actually *can* work. We've done that with our small medical software company. Goodwill is our strongest advertising. Don't get me wrong, our tech support is expensive to provide. We go far our of the way for our customers, well beyond our responsibility. It's frustrating sometimes, but it really is worth it at the end.

    6. Re:Profit! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      2. Have good tech support

      The problem is that good tech support is costly. In order to provide it, you need to pass the cost onto the customer. Customers will compare your computer to a Dell and purchase the Dell for its mildly lower cost.

      FWIW, I've always thought it would be neat to find ways of improving computer packages up front rather than relying on tech support calls. For example, POD (Print On Demand) is getting advanced enough to where you could literally print a custom manual for each computer that ships. Thus the manual can exclude features that don't apply to the hardware configuration, display the EXACT memory, disk size, file system format, video card manufacturer, motherboard manufacturer, CPU, speed, etc., and give precise instructions on how to operate each piece of bundled software.

      With any luck, this would do wonders to reduce the number of support calls. Even better, it would allow for a company to more cost-effectively pre-install alternative OSes like Linux, FreeBSD, or Solaris as the instruction manual could be tailored to the requested configuration. No more (or at least fewer) support calls on, "How do I do install software?" or "I can't figure out how to switch between booting Windows and Linux." Such items would be listed in the manual. At the very least the support staff could quickly refer the user back to their manual rather than diagnosing their computer's configuration. (It would be even better is said staff had a PDF copy on hand.)

      Even Walmart "boxed" computers would benefit from this as the manuals would reflect that configuration rather than mentioning features that exist in the model you didn't buy. (Anyone else get annoyed when their car manual says "if equipped"? It's that much more fun when your TV Capture Card manual discusses all the features you don't have with nothing more than "TV Card 2000" vs. "TV Card 2000 Deluxe" to clue you in to whether it applies to you or not.)

      Of course, I'm assuming a lot to think that users would read their manuals. Still, it could be an interesting selling point. Especially if it was advertised correctly.
    7. Re:Profit! by EggyToast · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's the thing -- people DO read manuals if they're good manuals. if they flip through it and it's just page after page of "Thank you for purchasing one of our products" with a list of all possible specs and languages, they're going to assume it's crap.

      If it was actually relevant to their computer and covered the basics, they would know it was a reference. Sadly, good documentation (and I mean good, not just "listing everything") is usually one of the first things cut, despite the amount of money it can potentially save.

    8. Re:Profit! by corifornia · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think you could cut through calls a lot faster if you hired a set of good PC techs. Instead a lot of companies hire people with little to no skill and you sit on the phone while you hear them typing your problem into Google or something.

      The worst is when you call into Dell and you have a hard drive that is clunking like a 1987 civic and you have to walk through all the possible fixes before they go, "It sounds like you have a bad hard drive." Really? Is that what the smoke and burning electronics smell is?
      Me: Hi, my hard drive crashed, the disk is making a clunking noise, I need to get my hard drive replaced
      Them: Are you sure your PC is plugged in
      Me: Its on, its making a banging noise
      Them: Did you try rebooting?
      Me: What, yes er, no, its smoking, rebooting won't help.
      Them: Did you try re-installing windows?
      Me: I run Linux
      Them: Ok, get your windows disk and put it in the CD Drive
      Me: What? I need to get the disk replaced
      Them: We need to try all possible scenarios to fix the disk before we can send a replacement


      I have actually heard that line multiple times from Dell. Which translates too, "Im sorry, we have to waste your time just in case you are wrong"

      --
      crap.
    9. Re:Profit! by bronzey214 · · Score: 1

      Actually documentation at all is one of the first things cut.

      I bought a new computer and the CD-ROM didn't work and the manual was, ha, on a CD-ROM.

      I was begging the tech to ask me why I didn't RTFM.

    10. Re:Profit! by TrippTDF · · Score: 1

      Good people don't like being told to do a shitty job, and they will leave.


      Amen to that! I'm getting ready to leave my current gig for just that reason! There's only so many times you can be directed to do sub-par work before you start looking for something else.
    11. Re:Profit! by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      don't forget:

      4) lose customer loyalty
      5) lose market share
      6) cash in multi-million dollar golden parachute... aka Profit!

      --
      We are all just people.
    12. Re:Profit! by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      The early Microsoft manuals actually had useful information. Now they're thick books of marketing information.
      Not a single page of how to setup an email address using Outlook Express or how to write a document with Wordpad.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    13. Re:Profit! by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      what burns me is they could just as well include a REAL REINSTALL media set (okay they might have to use DVD DL platters but..) and then save some hard drive space instead of the normal
      marketing size of the drive - real size of the drive - formatting overhead - diagnostics partition - [redacted]ware - WinStupidity - Windows itself = open space

      i dare an OEM to give stats on how much drive space is actually open after the loadout

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    14. Re:Profit! by slugstone · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with you. Just think if you called Ford for help on fixing you car.

      Customer: Hello, I have a problem with my car.
      Ford: What is the problem sir?
      Customer: It is not working.
      Ford: What does not work?
      Customer: Not sure just get my car working again.

    15. Re:Profit! by defaria · · Score: 1

      The point is that if you get good people you need less of them. I can't tell you how many times I've spend literally hours on the phone, on hold, transfered, having to explain the problem again, having to tell them that the problem has nothing to do with the solution they were suggesting, etc. I'm willing to guess that that 1 hours call could be chopped down to a 5 minute call if the tech on the other end were competent. Then do the math! You'd need to hire 12 people working problems at 1 hour a piece to cover what 1 good person would be doing (solving 12 issues/hour). Regarding money: A good tech person could be had for 6x a bad person's salary (and the tech company saves the other 6x in salaries). And while the purpose of calling tech support is not to tell them they have a good product, it is to solve a problem, I've been known to tell them they have a good product or a good service if and when they have a good product or provide good service!

    16. Re:Profit! by unlametheweak · · Score: 3, Informative

      My experiences as a techie for some major Fortune 500 companies:

      - MOST problems cannot be solved by following a script
      - Also, company knowledge bases (for the tech's) are usually outdated, inaccurate and poorly designed
      - People ARE willing to pay for tech support
              - When I did support for M$, customers of brand name computers with OEM operating systems would call in and ask for support because they couldn't get their problems solved through the OEM call centres (M$ customer service will just charge them of course)
      - Customers are rarely angry unless you feed them with bullshit, keep transferring them, constantly put them on hold, etc. If you do like me and actually treat a customer like a decent human being instead of getting them off the phone as soon as possible, then you will probably not get promoted, but you will have a feeling of personal satisfaction that you actually bothered to help the customer solve their problem

      Facts:
      - most call centres have time limits for tech calls, which means techs are pressured to get people off the phone as soon as possible instead of giving them any type of quality support

      - training is often limited to 2 to 3 weeks for a specific product, with much of the training time dedicated to human resources type training, i.e. how to talk to the customer to make them feel like you are helping them, instead of actually giving the techs the technical knowledge to actually solve their problems

      - techs often make things up. Yes I've experienced this as a customer and have seen other techs do this. If people don't know the answer, they will just make-up there own answer just so they don't have to deal with the problem (having the customer do something that takes a long time can help to get the customer of the phone, like doing a chkdsk)

      - With one company that I was with (that I quit in disgust), a customer told me that he noticed what seemed to be a manufacturers defect in the specific brand of computer. I went to my supervisor and he said this is not true. I asked my supervisor how he knew this since I never even told him the model number. He said "good point, I'll check", about 30 seconds later he said he checked and said there was no default with the product.

      - Turnover rate is high in this business. So keeping experienced techs isn't so much an issue as keeping within the short term quarterly profit margin targets

      Believe me I could write a whole book about my experiences, but I think you get my point. The only thing that seems to be saving any one company from bankruptcy through customer abandonment is that all companies seem to be colluding with the lie (or exaggeration at least) that they are providing technical support.

      Let's face it, if a customer had a choice of saving their computer data or just getting their computer to work properly, they will pay. Often companies with out-of-warranty customers charge $2.00 per minute, often for the same poor technical support. It is a rip-off and a cash grab for the companies involved.

    17. Re:Profit! by bronzey214 · · Score: 1

      This is true, but HP was kind enough to give me a reinstall DVD, so I feel somewhat better about messing around with the partitions to dual-boot Ubuntu + Windows.

    18. Re:Profit! by feedmetrolls · · Score: 0

      Wait, somethings not right ...

      Of course it's not right. One of those steps should read "steal underpants!"

      --
      You are reading a sig. Cancel or allow?
    19. Re:Profit! by qzulla · · Score: 1
      I guess you didn't work where I did.

      I was a tech for a year, and it was horrible. You only get angry/upset people talking to you, and most of the problems can be resolved by following a script.

      It was not the best but it paid (notice I didn't use payed) the bills. I was a Sales Engineer and took a lot of calls. We catered to businesses but on occaision we took the personal call. I'm not sure why.

      I ended up on the personal call Mac line. Ok, whatever. I took all the calls.

      Got laid three times with three different calls that year. Well, multiples of those three calls.

      My point is sooth the angry people. It paid off for me.

      Oh, and I am not the bottom of the barrel. My first assignment with them was 15mil bux.

      qz

    20. Re:Profit! by Phoobarnvaz · · Score: 1

      Even if they were able to pay them more (which they aren't), you aren't going to get good people who know what they are doing to sit on a phone all day every day dealing with angry/frustrated customers. No one ever calls tech support to tell them how happy they are with their purchase. I was a tech for a year, and it was horrible. You only get angry/upset people talking to you...

      Did work for a major PC company in the US for 2 years (1.5 of that in email support...rest on phones)...taking hotel reservations for a casino in Nevada & doing cold calling for insurance leads. You wonder what all these have in common??? Working almost as a slave for almost no money...dealing with people I wouldn't execute on my worst days & having a manager telling you that your numbers suck with a phone in one ear & them in your other.

      Got bad enough at the casino job that I was called into a meeting & told my "attitude" was not conducive for good customer service. After 1/2 hour of being on the clock & taking this BS for the whole time from 2 managers doing the "round robin" treatment...was handed the write up. As they continued barking up their tree...I wrote the following:
      This is my 2 week notice & even though this is the only thing you can find to get onto me about...you can go F*** Yourselves (underlined as I tore the paper)...especially since I'm the only employee who shows up for their shift & agrees to help you out by working extra shifts when others decide not to show up. Have a nice day...I am going to be counting down the moments until I leave here. Yours truly...
      Funny thing...gave me a 50 cent raise to $7.50 an hour & said they wanted me to come back if my plans don't work out. The funniest part about it is that I had fellow employees shaking my hand on the way out & wishing me well.
      Ended up living off my savings while waiting for my next job to open up paying twice the amount of money for working 6 hours a day...with plenty of vacation time. No paid benefits...but do enjoy the time off.

      most of the problems can be resolved by following a script.

      Or even by doing some SIMPLE reading in websites or in chat rooms. Have found out that the more that these type of people spend over $1.00...the more entitled they feel. Another suggestion I had was to get someone to write up the scripts in book form & email it to the customer.

      --
      Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. - Charles M. Schulz
    21. Re:Profit! by metlin · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the margins in the PC industry are razor thin, and with the number of people needed to man those phones, they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

      Retail customers aren't willing to pay for quality tech support. [Corporates are though.]
      Thank you. That is the heart of the problem. How many of the people who complain that they have a problem with call-centers cutting down costs would be willing to pay to get support? And how many would be willing to pay a higher price for quality?

      I mean, we are talking about people that gripe about paying for a piece of software because there is a free alternative available (principles notwithstanding) - but do they realize that part of paying for the software (Open Source or not) is that you get support in exchange for the money?

      Most people are unwilling to use IVRs and automated systems, even when such systems are really *good* and insist on talking to an agent, even when their problems can quite easily be solved through automation. On the other hand, they refuse to pay more to have good support but gripe when the quality of support isn't exactly spectacular.

      Sorry, folks. It doesn't work like that. Now, there may always be exceptions (where you pay and still get bad support) but those are few and far in between, compared to the expensive stuff that gets you good support.

      I would add one more thing in that if you look at certain other areas that are high-profit/high-margin, you will see that customer support tends to be good. Why? Because you paid for a good piece of product or service and you are getting your money's worth.
    22. Re:Profit! by Kenji+Mapes · · Score: 1

      Lol slapout.

    23. Re:Profit! by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      I'd actually prefer an IVR system, assuming it was well-designed and helpful. Unfortunately such a thing does not exist and never will.

    24. Re:Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Got laid three times with three different calls that year. Am I still reading Slashdot?
    25. Re:Profit! by houghi · · Score: 1

      I have written a manual and it was pretty good. It was not to thick to be boring, yet contained all basic solutions for about 80% of the problems.

      New customers would be angry if they did not recieve the manual. Yet when they phoned in a few days later and you asked if they had recieved the manual, the answer was ALWAYS: yes, but I didn't have time to read it. I want a solution NOW.

      Me: Sure, as we explained on page 2, ....
      Problem solved in about 1 minute if not faster.

      I have spoken to other people who have written manuals and they come to the same conclusion. The majority of people do not read them and those who do just do it so they can look if there is not the smallest of errors and bugger you about it.

      Manuals. Doomed if you do make them, doomed if you don't. Just don't think anybody will ever read them, ever.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    26. Re:Profit! by Floydius · · Score: 1
      I work in a call center for a credit union. we have probably about 1500 people answering phones and our membership is about 3 million. We have a very high satisfaction rate, but it takes an insane amount of work and money to keep things running smoothly.

      After about 3 years of constant involvement answering phones and monitoring queues/trends, I honestly think the whole call center model is not the best way to approach customer service unless you have a ton of revenue at your disposal and you know where (geographically) to place the call centers.

      There are some tough issues to tackle that have been mentioned:

      Finding people with a good work ethic. - Some people are not interested in doing a job right because it's the right thing to do. Hence, they will make up stuff instead of stating what they know. The fact that many callers are rude and/or demanding doesn't make it easy for those of us who will help them no matter how they act, but for someone with no work ethic, just be glad they're not your waiter.

      Having the right implementation. - When you do call center work, you're fighting two major fronts. (a) People are pretty impatient when they call. They want to have their call answered within 1 - 2 minutes. This can be done if the strategy is to push calls through as fast as possible. However this will inevitably sacrifice quality. Duh. (b) It costs a ton to staff capable people in a call center. If you're in an area with lots of job competition and a large pool of applicants, it is very hard to hire in a call center. It is hard work. People are often rude or demanding. Sitting on the phone for 8 hours every day really wears on you quickly, no matter how nice people are. So you have to put the center in a location where you are the employer of choice.

      My credit union is lucky. We generate an insane amount of revenue for our size. We can afford good workers and the management for the most part has not forgotten that we are quality service oriented rather than profit driven. We are not required to answer a certain amount of calls per day. The major factor for evaluation is QA monitorings (QA is a huge operation alone) and the amount of time spent on the phone. Most companies are not so lucky. They do not have the money to hire good people. Their customers demand to have someone answer the phone, and something has to give.

    27. Re:Profit! by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that customers always lie.

      That's why you need business support. You call them up, give them Type/Serial, FRU number for the disk, and 4 hours later a courier arrives with your new hard disk.

    28. Re:Profit! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Followed immediately by

      1. Turn company into a public company (corporation for you US guys).
      2. Fire half your workforce.
      3. Profit due to increased stock value.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    29. Re:Profit! by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      I've written technical documentation on more than one occasion, and the problem with people reading it lies in the presentation, not necessarily the content.

      Make people laugh, say something absurd, but stick to the details of what you're writing. If you include a little entertainment people are more likely to keep reading. Nobody wants to pick up a manual that reads like Encyclopedia Brittanica, but most manuals are written exactly that way.

    30. Re:Profit! by WarpSnotTheDark · · Score: 0

      I worked at Microsoft for a number of years back in the late 90s - when I arrived; Microsoft was a great place to work. We had guys that dressed up like Spock, Disco Stu and whoever else nerds may emulate - 1.5 hours of paid nap-time every day also, roving burrito-ladies, free coffee & soda. No shirt, no shoes, no problem - there was no dress code - it was just a bunch of nerds (about 50% were Unix Gurus as well). Microsoft sold off their Windows support groups to a company named Keane - Keane quickly learned that making money in tech support is nearly impossible, so they sold us off to my FAVORITE Company - Convergys. Convergys first order of business was to sell off the entire infrastructure that wasn't absolutely necessary - we had a 6:1 Person to Printer ratio - Convergys fixed that so we had one printer per floor - and that printer never worked. Convergys' corporate plan for us was to establish a 318% attrition rate such that most employees never pass their initial 90 days performance evaluation period - which would entitle them to a higher hourly rate. Ultimately, I was training people from India over the phone, who had PhDs and were willing to do the job for approximately $3 per hour - after they were trained and ready to handle some of the volume, Convergys fired 80 of us in one fell swoop and told it that it was because we hadn't called in sick appropriately sometime in the past 6 months - they then proceeded to put every employment lawyer in the state on retainer. I blame Microsoft for not keeping their tech support in-house. You'd have to look at Convergys' customer list to know what they handle currently, but while I was there I knew of contracts with Microsoft, Dell, Gateway, RoadRunner and Cox Cable. Tech Support exists to address deficiencies in the product your company provides and as such, one should not expect to turn a profit from it. Attempting to turn a profit from Tech Support is unethical - in my opinion. That's my rant for the day. Happy Da /.ers.

    31. Re:Profit! by diemuzi · · Score: 1

      I would really like to see the comments based on call centers for the Internet industry. When most people think about Call Centers they thing of the PC world, but what about those who do Web Hosting or Domain Registrations. It's a completely different type of assistance and most things can be resolved in a matter of minutes. Therefore leaving the customer with a much higher sense of satisfaction. ~ Sammie http://ecommerce.com/

    32. Re:Profit! by pedalman · · Score: 1

      As a former Dell phone tech (1998-2000), I can tell you what the hiring process would look for first is customer service skills first.

      Their logic was that anybody can be taught tech skills, but good customer service (giving good phone) is hard to find.

      Of course, we all know how well this works out. :p

      --
      Friends don't let friends line-dance.
    33. Re:Profit! by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      Those are the people who called. What about the people who didn't call because they just read the manual? It's an unknown -- a good manual will reduce call numbers, but if you didn't have a manual, would the numbers be higher? How much?

      Lots of companies assume that since they're already paying for phone support, they might as well cut costs on the manual and let the phone people handle it. Which is dumb. For that guy who called and you pointed them to the manual, since it was already written down *and they could follow along,* not only was the answer quick (as you say, less than a minute), but you weren't kept on the phone while the customer tried out the solution.

      That same customer could also have had another question but simply referred to the manual, instead of calling back again. The problem is the same as "happy customers," though -- happy customers don't complain, so you don't hear from them. If you only respond to the unhappy ones, you're ignoring a large portion of your customer base.

    34. Re:Profit! by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I was insanely pleased when I discovered that a great deal of retail hardware comes with those big, foldout "quickstart" manuals that have big pictures, direct people how to plug things in, and uses a very straightforward method to get people going.

      Of course, they're usually complemented with the encyclopedia, which contains all of the rest of the information for actually using and maintaining their products. It doesn't help that nearly every company only includes support for their own brand of products, which most people don't own.

    35. Re:Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't understand how clueless people are, until you have worked in a call center.

    36. Re:Profit! by Behrooz · · Score: 1

      I have actually heard that line multiple times from Dell. Which translates too, "Im sorry, we have to waste your time just in case you are wrong"
       
      It's tech support. If someone contacts tech support and already thinks they have a diagnosis for their problem, the vast majority of the time their diagnosis is wrong. Never assume anything about a computer's status when you're getting all of your information secondhand, because at least three-quarters of the time, the assumption will be wrong, and then you spend half an hour troubleshooting a broadband connection that is working perfectly normally when the problem is with the router plugged into it under the user's desk.
       
      The hard part is getting all of this mission-critical information out of users in a friendly-enough manner to avoid making them uncooperative, and yet precisely enough to successfully resolve the issue.
       
      ...and that's why I hate calling tech support for other large entities I have to interact with, because either
      A) I don't know what I'm doing, usually due to insufficient documentation from techs in the field or
      B) I know what I'm doing, but I know the techs I'm calling will have to assume otherwise.
       
      Either way, talking to a tech who knows what they're doing is priceless, and if they ask you a question, there's probably a good reason for it, whether that makes sense at the time or not.
       

      --
      "We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
  2. By phone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most likely caused by the customer wanting to fix their computer problem by phone - damn near impossible, I say.

    1. Re:By phone? by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      Especially when you cant understand the person on the other side because they moved the support jobs to India. No offense intended to people working tech support in India I am sure if I had to speak Hindi to help you fix your PC I would do a far worse job then you are doing.

      --
    2. Re:By phone? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      and then you layer in the "im so stupid i can't provide tech support for a spoon" type folks (i actually in my former job talked to a guy that found that one out)

      sometime the problem is an IQ barrier not a Language barrier.

      OEMs need to have online the following
      1 a way to download the restore dvd(s) (if not in the box)
      2 a detailed tech sheet (make/model and subspecs on all the bits) or maybe just include a copy of Belarc advisor or similar
      3 a simple page with any updates

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  3. When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by lena_10326 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...I don't even try. It's pointless.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
    1. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by __aaabsi3154 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Where's the -1 Racist mod when you need it...

    2. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe they stop trying when they hear your "thick foreign accent" :)

    3. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by N3WBI3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Its not racist its damn hard to understand people through an accent *especially* if you dont know what you're doing looking for help.

      --
    4. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by ehrichweiss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately I don't think this is necessarily under the racist umbrella this time. There are several factors in delivering tech support and one of them is for the customer to be able to understand the tech. If that weren't enough, try calling tech support and finding one of the smarmy mofos who think they are engineers instead of peon techs reading from a script. I've seriously had some guy, who I'll only say was from the middle east by the sound of his accent, try to tell me repeatedly that Windows was running out of resources and that's the reason I was having problems with my internet connection; I was using an SGI and was trying to report a router that was failing and told him this no less than 25 times. I blame it on their culture that they think that being in any position of power "over" you means they know everything you do not about that subject; I don't know where it comes from but it's prevalent. That doesn't mean I hate the person, but I understand fully why someone might want to talk to someone who'll actually LISTEN(and understand what you're saying) for a change. Besides, I don't need something petty like a person's accent or skin color to hate them when there are so many other good reasons to hate everyone.

      --
      0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
    5. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately? does the racist umbrella keep you dry or something??

    6. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Its not racist its damn hard to understand people through an accent *especially* if you dont know what you're doing looking for help.

      Damn skippy. I am horrible at math (dyslexia related to numbers or something, they just run away from me, I have a hard time adding two three-digit numbers together even when you don't have to carry) and when I took pre-algebra in college, I had some kind of asian guy (sorry, I'm a typical dumb american in this regard) as an instructor and his accent was more or less impenetrable. I had no idea what the hell I was doing and certainly couldn't learn anything from him. I ended up dropping out and to this day I still have never passed a single class in algebra (although I do utilize it in a limited fashion occasionally. I mean even to use ohm's law you need that, unless you want to draw a triangle every time you want to do that.)

      When you're talking about something you know well, it's easier to hear through someone's accent because you're more used to the words and concepts being expressed. When you are trying to learn something you don't know jack about, it becomes substantially harder. Most people don't know shit about computers and most tech support employees are no exception, so it's no wonder that many of us have a spectacularly hard time understanding the Indian tech on the other end of the shit phone connection.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, come again!

    8. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by blhack · · Score: 1

      The best is to just start asking the people where they are from. Xerox recently moved all of their tech support to jamaica, so when i called them last time, i finally just said "Out of curiosity, where are you located? It sounds like your accent is from somewhere in the bahamas" The girl started laughing and said Jamaica. After a few more jokes and stuff, it was "Let me transfer you to level 2 tech support"

      win :-D

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    9. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by megaditto · · Score: 1

      Here is a fun factoid for you: 5% of your user population will consume 95% of your support services (give or take).

      Are those 5% also the ones who are easily hamstrung by a 'thick foreign accent?' If so, hiring foreigners might actually save the company some serious cash.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    10. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      We had to take m68k assembly as part of my degree program. The class was taught by a professor who had just come back from spending the summer in India. Since I already knew x86 assembly, I was able to grasp the concepts fairly easily since I had a pretty good idea of what we were talking about to start with. A good portion of my class had absolutely no idea what they were being told and it really showed up in the lab portion where people would spend a week trying to write a simple program (perhaps to count from 1 to 10 on a LED by blinking it a corresponding number of times) and would come in with a 20 page program (had to submit a printout of our program for grading) that didn't work at all in comparison to my 2 page program.

      The guy was a smart guy but he just couldn't efficiently pass that knowledge on to the inexperienced in the class. I remember one time when he spent more than a minute trying to get out the word "mailbox" as an analogy when we were talking about registers. Being freshly back from India had rethickened his accent as well, making it harder for him to enunciate(if you know someone who grew up somewhere with a distinct accent (like the south) and then lost it, try talking to them after they spend some time back home... you'll notice that they regained a good portion of their accent, especially immediately after returning). The guy definitely wasn't an idiot or inferior, he simply didn't have the ability to communicate in his non-native language to students to convey his understanding. That's not racism (superiority of one race over another), it's simply reality. He probably would have been a great teacher to a class full of people who's language he natively spoke.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    11. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by xero314 · · Score: 1

      When I call and hear a thick foreign accent I just key hitting the 1 key on my phone hoping eventually it will acknowledge and get me someone that speaks english.
    12. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by CthulhuDreamer · · Score: 1

      I had to drop out of a Chemistry program because the instructors (or rather the grad students they had filling in for them) were unintelligible. Not only could be not understand what they were speaking, but none of us could read their chalkboard writing (half of which was in Chinese). We did figure out that "fus" meant "phosphorous", but we couldn't match up most of the others. After the first few weeks, the instructor was talking to an empty room. It doesn't matter how many PhD's a person has, they're useless if they can't pass the information on (and it's doubly aggravating when you are paying them for it).

    13. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 1

      Another point on that is that there is an assumption anymore (and understandably so) that the accent is always Indian. That's definitely not always the case, especially on enterprise-level support calls. Fortunately, I'm quite adept at deciphering even the thickest accents; however, I know people who have a hell of a time understanding the person on the other end when the call gets routed to England or Ireland! I remember once when I had to be called over to work with an Irish tech support because the other admin couldn't understand what he was saying!

      A dislike for thick accents != racism (unless Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton hear about it, of course).

      --
      The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
    14. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      yeah, we could put it next to the "raising racism as a smokescreen instead of discussing real issue" mod. Today I received a call from a recruiter in S. asia, could not understand him at all, even though I work with people from S. asia with heavy accents. If I had called for help with an urgent IT problem and been connected to someone speaking as he did, I'd be an unhappy customer.

    15. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by mackyrae · · Score: 1

      1. Racism is the wrong word. It'd be xenophobia because being Chinese-American doesn't mean you understand a Chinese guy trying to pronounce technical words correctly in English.

      2. The problem with accents is that they can be unintelligible. If your accent is really really thick, I might not know what word you're saying. It could be any of a number of things. They might be trying to name a kind of RAM. That'd be hard to understand. "PC2400? PC400? Peezee Thundered? What did they say?"

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    16. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the -1 Racist mod when you need it... Where's the -1 Dumbass mod when you need it? If the culture has a hard to understand accent when speaking English I don't want to deal with it. I've been around people from New Zealand I couldn't understand, if the call center was there the result would be the same. It doesn't have anything to do with race.

      Conversely, if a white person grew up in India they'd have an Indian accent. If they worked at a call center they'd be equally hard to understand.

      One could go so far as to imply you're the racist. Because you brought race into it, it could be inferred that you think there's a genetic deficiency when someone can't speak English without a heavy accent.
    17. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Its not racist its damn hard to understand people through an accent *especially* if you dont know what you're doing looking for help.

      How true that is!

      Today I was out flying and over the radio heard an impenetrable Asian accent. I literally could not determine if he was even speaking English, though I'm pretty sure that technically, he was. I tried and tried to figure it out. Even worse, it was all self-announced on a Unicom frequency shared by a number of local airports - I have no idea if he was even within 100 miles of me.

      It's not racism - it's simply an ability to communicate.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    18. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Courageous · · Score: 1

      A router? An SGI? Was this an enterprise class situation? I would have called up my CISCO sales rep or what not, and suggest that he and perhaps his boss get on a plane and discuss the situation with me. We did this to Dell, recently, when DRAC manifested some apparent problems. Those sales guys... they have more power than you think. Helps being a big buyer, of course.

      BTW, not all consumer level support sucks. I buy my DSL from Speakeasy (http://www.speakeasy.net). While they cost maybe 25% more than your local Baby Bell carrier, two things: 1) their tech support is top notch, 2) you own your connection... they don't care what servers you run, the bandwidth is yours, NAT, firewall, whatever. I got really, really tired of the utterly incompetent script readers once at Time Warner Cable, and I fired them. Went to speakeasy, and I'll never look back.

      C//

    19. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by devin15 · · Score: 1

      Wow it's the same when I get a customer with a thick foreign accent. //Sarcasm

    20. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      It also helps to learn "Do you speak English? Then get me someone who does!" in as many languages as possible.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    21. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is just rude.

    22. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      I'm aware of a corporate call centre that's move to hungary. Eastern Europe is proving increasingly popular. Same problem I'm afraid. I'm entirely prepared to accept and appreciate that the guy on the other end of the line knows his stuff. At least, until he's proved otherwise. However I get very frustrated when I can't follow English + accent + bad line + 'did you reboot it' tech support.

      I've experienced both good and bad support. I know how good the 'good' can be. And likewise how bad it can be.

      The problem is, a) price - 'end users' want free. Business customers want cheap. The latter often can be persuaded with an argument of 'business impact' of crap support.

      b)End users lie. I mean, seriously. They're _terrible_ at admitting that they did something. I've seriously had someone bring a laptop to our helpdesk, with tyre tread marks over it. And when asked 'so, what happened to that then' his response was the usual defensive 'nothing, it just stopped working'.

      c) Support work sucks. I mean, seriously, I would have to be desparate to work in a call centre. It's a crap job on the coalface. Even if the payscales were good, I'd be very wary of it. (and by good, I'm taking 'suck it up for a couple of years, then go buy a house' level of good. I have had that discussion, there's some high power high profile jobs that pretty much relies on a couple of years running near burnout). So ... you get the people who are there, either because their desparate (and will leave as soon as they can) or crap.

      d)Home systems really lack badly in diagnostics. Servers, especially high end Unix, it's entirely possible to get extensive diagnostic information. I mean, you can plug into the diag processor of a Sun, and have it tell you precisely why it's not powering up. If it's 'up' you can do all manner of kernel hooking, especially with ultra-sexy tools like dtrace, which mean you can actually find out what's wrong. There is a reason why you go for the '3Rs' with windows. (Reboot, reinstall, rebuild)

      Call centres _can_ be 'reasonable' but ... doing so gets very expensive. That cost is compared in direct competition with el-cheapo helldesk in the middle of nowhere, and you lose out, since they don't actually put some considerationg into ever actually having to _use_ the support in a critical emergency situation.

    23. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      Cultural differences can also make things like tech support difficult. The 'way things are' in an Arabic country are just different. No, that's _not_ worse, just different. However when you're trying to interface between any two things, then ... well everything works better if it's as simple as possible.

      This goes double in a troubleshooting situation. It doesn't matter much if the 'interface' is your TCP/IP connection, the right ODBC drivers, or just being on the same damn timezone and language as the person you're dealing with.

    24. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      Bullying sales, whilst effective, is fundamentally a workaround for the underlying problem. Not to say it doesn't work, because as you say, they have power - sales brings in money. Big customer gives money. Big customer expresses disastisfaction, and then it's worth real money to sort it.

      I just feel a little dirty, each time I do it.

      Come to think of it, that might be more to do with dealing with salespeople, than what I actually talk to them about.

    25. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's when it's time to have some fun. Is your thick-accented tech support buddy from Bangalore? Put on a thick Irish brogue. Routed to Montreal? Then you're from the Outback, mate.

      Good times, good times.

    26. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      What a disappointing post. How can you mention Jamaica without throwing in some "irie, irie" or a pot reference? -1 unimaginative. :)

    27. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Courageous · · Score: 1

      I don't really agree that it's a "workaround". See, I think sales runs all those companies. Telling sales you're really pissed about customer support is much, much, much more effective than telling customer support you're pissed about customer support. The sales guys at the top of the tree talk directly with all the executives and can be very influential in the company. They can say things like "a big buyer is looking at Juniper instead of us because our India BPO for Customer Service is executing incompetently and treating them rudely (subtext: Maybe I should offer to help them switch their account their and go to Juniper myself, eh?)". Sales, not customer service, is the direct line of the customer to the company.

      C//

    28. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by bizitch · · Score: 1

      you want bageldonut with that?

      --
      ---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
    29. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by ehrichweiss · · Score: 1

      No, it was their router, not mine. I was trying to report it as giving marginal(at best) service and would often force me to reset my connection.

      I have a good ISP now, run by a group of old friends and I can do almost anything I like with the bandwidth.

      --
      0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
    30. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by evanknight · · Score: 1

      I work in Tech support for an ISP. A guy who started the same day as me is from Pakistan originally, he has an accent. He's been in the USA for a good twelve years, though. He's one of the best tech's here.. but people immediately distrust him because of his accent without even letting him try to solve whatever problem they're calling about. It kinda irritates me. I understand being frustrated with crappy outsourced tech support, but their accent has nothing to do with their skill level.

      --
      Well, its not quite a mop, and its not quite a puppet, but man.. So to answer your question I don't know.
    31. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      It kinda irritates me. I understand being frustrated with crappy outsourced tech support, but their accent has nothing to do with their skill level.
      Well, when there's a strong accent you know it's not their natural language so right off the bat you know there's going to be a very high probability of having a difficult time communicating.

      I've worked with a large number of H1-B VISA holders. Guess what? Communication is a problem 80 to 90% of the time (estimation provided by the Eyeball Method). I don't care if they have 3 PhD's and a 155 IQ, when you know it's going to take 15-20 minutes to get across "I like the product, but it has an intermittent problem that occurs only when the laptop has been sitting over-night plugged into the wall with the lid closed. Oh, and by the way when it does it the fan stops, runs real fast, then stops." you just feel like giving up.
      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    32. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      What's bad is when I can understand them (I had indian roommates in college) but they can't understand me... I would think understanding spoken english would be a requirement for tech support for english users, but what do I know. I don't have a particularly strong accent of any sort (fingerlakes area NY, USA - pretty generic, but even most of the mild accents found in much of the US)and should be easy enough to understand.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    33. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by Courageous · · Score: 1

      Oh, I see. I had exactly this problem with Time Warner Cable. I had actually managed to get their technical specialists to agree that there was a problem with one of their routers in our physical neighborhood. I called to get status on that very subject, and the person on the other end absolutely insisted on walking me through the "script," ... it's veddy important dat first you must power your modem on. And so forth. I attempted to explain the situation one final time, they refused to listen, and I fired Time Warner Cable for both digital and video service the very next day.

      The worst part of this whole thing is, I had gotten my digital satellite service all set up when later Time Warner folks came out and attempted physical work on my house, screwing up the digital satellite. Their customer service is so bad they fuck you over even when you're not a customer.

      C//

    34. Re:When I call and hear a thick foreign accent by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      If no one thought about race, there'd be no racism.

      And yes, as many others have written, not understanding those with heavy accents is not racism. They wouldn't want _us_ answering their tech support line, so what's good for them is good for us.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
  4. Your call is important to us by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'd leave a better comment but I'm still on hold with Dell...

    --
    It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    1. Re:Your call is important to us by RedElf · · Score: 1

      I'd leave a better comment but I'm still on hold with Dell... How many hours has it been now?
      --
      You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!
    2. Re:Your call is important to us by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      Hours? Unfair, you got the priority line!

  5. Complexity by truthsearch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, worse than cable service call centers? That's sad. I bet it's because of all the industries included, the PC industry has the most complex product and the most complex problems. Banking, television, insurance, and even cell phone service are all pretty straightforward. But PCs are such general purpose devices that the issues are bound to be more complex.

    Of course there's the other obvious problems of poor call center training, etc. But that just compounds the issue.

    1. Re:Complexity by freedumb2000 · · Score: 1

      Agreed, and it is very easy to just buy from someone else on the next purchase of a PC as well. Easier than switching Banks or the insurance provider.

    2. Re:Complexity by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you may have hit part of the problem there. It's hard enough to fix someone's computer problem when you have their computer in your hands, fixing it over the phone, especially when dealing with people who are, ahem, less than adept at computer use is exceedingly difficult. Combine that with the fact that many people think errors are simple on/off ordeals, "oh it's broken? hit a. problem solved" type things, and you have a very frustrating experience for both sides.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    3. Re:Complexity by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it also helps when you don't tell them to unnecessarily install GRUB, taking down all the other precautions they had set up, and locking them out of their computer. :-/

    4. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No offense man... But seriously, let it go. Just let. it. go.

    5. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Ubuntu experience was better, at least. All I got was a "sync out of range" message on my monitor, and when I asked for help, everything involved entering commands and editing files.

      The concept that THERE WAS NO UI TO USE TO ENTER THESE COMMANDS never took. Everyone would give random commands which couldn't be entered because there was nothing on the screen.

      So I was never able to even run the LiveCD, let alone brick my computer.

      By I don't doubt that it would, given that Ubuntu users apparently don't understand the concept of no UI.

    6. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, it is possible to type commands even if the refresh rate for the monitor is not right, you know.

    7. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, genius, Ubuntu starts with a GUI. Typing commands involves opening a Terminal window, which YOU CAN'T DO IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE GUI!

      Even if you could, you can't verify that the terminal is open, or selected, or that anything you've entered is even correct, or the command is running, or anything.

      But thanks, you're just as helpful as the rest of the Ubuntu idiots.

    8. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, now, there's no need to get nasty. Clearly he just assumed you knew about switching to a real console (Ctrl+Alt+F1) where it's solely text based and you can login and type without needing to see what you are doing.

    9. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again: NO GUI!

      Pressing random keys doesn't help if you CAN'T SEE WHAT'S GOING ON! Switching virtual desktops WON'T HELP when you can't see what's happening! Why is this so hard to understand?

      The ONLY POINT at which there's anything visible is when it gives you that menu thing before starting the GUI. After that, all I see is "sync out of range" and there's NO WAY to do anything - I'm typing in the dark.

    10. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hitting CTRL+ALT+F1 will take you to a text only console. Which will reset the video mode and refresh rate. If you can see the menu, you should be able to use that console as well.

    11. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again:

      I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING ON THE SCREEN. THE ONLY THING THAT DISPLAYS IS "SYNC OUT OF RANGE".

      Pressing random keys isn't going to help. The only thing that might be able to help is figuring out how to get the Live CD's "safe mode" to actually work. However I get the same error when using "safe mode".

      Why is this so hard to understand? Moving to another desktop won't help since Ubuntu is trying to use a video mode that the monitor doesn't understand. If it can't show the initial desktop, why would changing to another desktop help?

    12. Re:Complexity by awacs · · Score: 1

      "Why is this so hard to understand? Moving to another desktop won't help since Ubuntu is trying to use a video mode that the monitor doesn't understand. If it can't show the initial desktop, why would changing to another desktop help?"

      Because the text-only desktop plays by different rules. Even if your GUI is toast, you can (probably) still use text.

    13. Re:Complexity by KronicD · · Score: 1

      He didn't suggest switching virtual desktops, he suggested switching to a console. Seriously, hitting ctrl+alt+f1 will throw you into a text based frame buffer thingyo, which should run at a very low resolution (unless you've done a lot of reconfiguring to change that).

      --
      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
    14. Re:Complexity by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Does Ubuntu have a safe mode? In Windows you can press a function key to get to safe mode where the generic VGA driver is used.

      http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/w indows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/boot_failsafe.mspx?mf r=true

      Then you can right click on the desktop and fiddle around until you get the right settings. You can test the new mode for 10 seconds before applying it too.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    15. Re:Complexity by c1t1z3nk41n3 · · Score: 1

      hehe. I used to do phone support for Dell and when people would ask my why it takes so long I would tell them this. Imagine that you are a car mechanic. Now imagine that you have to help somebody fix their car by phone and all they can tell you is "it sounds funny". It's gonna take some time. (I know, I know. another comp/car analogy. mod away)

    16. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, genius, Ubuntu starts with a GUI. Typing commands involves opening a Terminal window, which YOU CAN'T DO IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE GUI!

      Ubuntu doesn't have keyboard shortcuts??

      Even if you could, you can't verify that the terminal is open, or selected, or that anything you've entered is even correct, or the command is running, or anything.

      Assuming the command you type was to change the refreshrate, either it will work, or it won't.

      As for verifying what you've entered is correct, try typing it right to begin with.

      But thanks, you're just as helpful as the rest of the Ubuntu idiots.

      YOU couldn't get UBUNTU working, and I'M he idiot??????????

    17. Re:Complexity by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      That's actually a pretty good analogy IMO. I use that a fair bit. I mean, _most_ drivers have certain expectations regarding cars. That they'll need a service every now and then. If something goes wrong, it'll take some time to investigate and fix.

      All too often, we're getting situations where 'computer broke, fix now' is the way to go. Sometimes 'it isn't that easy' benefits from reference to things they follow.

    18. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Ubuntu has a safe mode. I tried it.

      It does the same "sync out of range" thing the non-safe mode did. So it's still a non-starter.

      In fact, as far as I can tell, Ubuntu's "safe mode" is identical to its "normal" mode. Which makes it completely worthless.

    19. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, look, I know a little something about computers, or I wouldn't be on Slashdot, m'kay?

      Ubuntu is attempting to use a video mode that the monitor doesn't support. Period.

      Switching desktops IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THAT. After going through the boot menu and past the startup screen, Ubuntu automatically chooses a video mode that the monitor doesn't support. The monitor won't magically start supporting the video mode Ubuntu is forcing on it just because there's a command line on the screen.

      Look, I already know the solution. I need to know how to tell Ubuntu to use a specific video mode from the boot menu. Anything else is USELESS because once Ubuntu has started, I CAN'T USE IT BECAUSE IT'S USING AN INVALID VIDEO MODE!

    20. Re:Complexity by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

      Bravo sir! for the funniest post of the day.
      Also, could you at least *try* what they are suggesting before going on and on about this issue that you very well could be wrong about? I too know a bit about computers, but I certainly won't pretend to know all about them.

    21. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't try any suggestions any more, I gave up and just went with Windows XP. Windows XP does this thing which Ubuntu might consider looking into: IT ACTUALLY WORKS!

      I'm not about to risk bricking the machine just to test out random suggestions on fixing an OS that can't even manage to query a monitor for its valid modes, something Windows has been able to do since Windows 95.

      I just find highly amusing - and, honestly, frustrating - how many suggestions people make that involve using the UI when the UI isn't actually even visible because Ubuntu screwed up the display mode.

    22. Re:Complexity by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Windows seems to have been fine tuned so it's hard to get into this situation and easy to get out of it. You probably already have a license to run it too ;-)

      What happens if you do an Alt F1 to get a virtual console? That should flip the screen to text mode, then you could log in an edit xorg.conf.

      http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=83973

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  6. Rude reps. by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Customer service reps located outside of the U.S. are rated lower on communication skills.

    I was once on a service call with a company's service rep and he was giving me instructions rather quickly and with a thick accent. When I asked him to repeat what he said, sometimes more than once, he became very irate and somewhat rude.

    I had to call in because because of their lame website wouldn't activate their damned product. I no longer do business with them nor will I ever.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Rude reps. by iibenyayaii · · Score: 1

      I also encountered some rep from cellphone call centres with thick accent. Just hang up and call them again. computer problems are much complicated, and computer is very widely used. Usually, u cannot solve your problems only with help from the service rep. you need to know some computer skill yourself. Those people already works hard.

    2. Re:Rude reps. by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      This is a situation where they should've responded with email instructions.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    3. Re:Rude reps. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Which Linux distribution did you switch to? Or did you buy a Mac?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Rude reps. by tresstatus · · Score: 1

      did it happen to be a website order for a cellphone from bestbuy? last week i went round and round with them. i purchased 2 phones and extended my cingular contract, all over the bestbuy website (would have done it in the store but they didn't have the color phone my wife wanted). the phones shipped and 3 days later i got the phones and new sim cards. i was informed that i HAD to use the new sim cards in order to use the HSPDA technology. that was fine with me. so i ask them to activate the phones. the indian girl tells me it will happen any time at random within the next 24 hours. WTF? so i ask her why i have to carry 2 phones for the next 24 hours until they get around to activating it. I talked to another guy, supposedly a supervisor, that said the same thing. i called back the next day around noon and got the same answer. finally i gave up and just called cingular directly. the people i had been calling before were from bestbuy's vendor Inphonic (avoid them like the plague). anyway, i told the cingular rep what was going on and she had my phone activated within 5 minutes. to add salt to the wound, it turns out that MY new cell phone was broken. i think about it for a couple hours and decide to cancel my contract extension and send the phones back. i talked to a cingular rep who kindly canceled the extension so that i could do a new phone deal elsewhere. actually, he gave me a better deal on the phones than the cingular stores and website do, so i just ordered the phones through him. now, here's the catch....that Inphonic company wanted their SIM cards back. cingular informed me that once a sim card has been deactivated, it can never be activated again. so i couldn't go back to using my old phones/cards in the interim while i was waiting for the new phones after i had already shipped the old phones. anyway...... call centers in india are crap. i could tell an instant difference in quality of service when i was speaking to someone that spoke english as a primary language. not only could i understand them speaking, i knew that they at least somewhat knew what i was talking about and needing. props to cingular/ATT. all 3 reps that i talked to were the nicest reps that i have ever spoken with. they resolved my issue and got me new phones and gave me a great deal on the new phones.

      --
      stephen
    5. Re:Rude reps. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, do you want to clue us in on the company you had a bad experience with? It'd help us out a bit, and you'd be able to take a little revenge guilt-free.

      Of course, there's Verizon. I'd have had a less frustrating time with them if their customer support had been unable to speak English. Worst customer service I ever had.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. Well, lets look at this a bit closer by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Other calls centers included in the survey included banking, cell phone service, cable and satellite television, and insurance.'"

    Desktop computers and their attendant problems just might be more complex than:

    - What's my bank balance?

    - What are all of these calls to Bangladore doing on my cell phone bill and where is the damn ON button?

    - What channel is Bugs Bunny on?

    - Where's the lizard?

    Not like Dell tech support is on my friends list (until you get to the server folks, they've seemed decent), but we're talking about a complex system in the hands of well, just about anybody.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:Well, lets look at this a bit closer by jguthrie · · Score: 1
      I don't buy it. Not for a second. Oh, I'm sure that the computers people are using are more complicated than their bank accounts, I just don't buy that the problems can all be laid at the feet of that complexity.


      Instead, I think that the problem lies in the attitude of the people who provide the tech support. When tech support is viewed as a "cost center" to be minimized rather than an opportunity to gather data about the products that you provide, everybody loses. Outsourcing is always a bad idea because the goal of whoever you outsource to is never going to be your goal. They're trying to maximize their profits by gaming their compensation. You (assuming you have a clue, for mutual benefit is the essence of trade) are trying to maximize your profits by maximizing the value of your products. The easiest way of gaming the system is not going to be actually solving problems. That doesn't add any value to your products.

      As a matter of fact, Joel Spolky has an article on providing customer service and while I disagree with one of the points (I think that vendors should be judged based on how often problems happen in addition to how well they resolve the problem--if it always takes six tries for an organization to get something right, I don't care all that much if they admit it's their problem and fix it for free, I'm still not going to think they're doing a good job) I think his direction is right. The feedback you get through your customer service folks gives you a direct window into what's happening with them and an opportunity to improve everybody's experience. It's just that nobody seems to realize the value of that information.

    2. Re:Well, lets look at this a bit closer by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      "- Where's the lizard?"

      One question- where the hell do you work?!?! :)

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  8. Three types of support people by toddbu · · Score: 1
    I've found that there are three types of support people who answer helpdesk calls:

    1. The guy who is clueless and couldn't care less about his job,
    2. The guy who thinks he knows everything but doesn't really have a clue, and
    3. The guy who really knows a fair amount and cares about the customer.

    #1 will be working at McDonald's next week and knows it. #2 will also be working at McDonald's next week, but doesn't see it coming. In the intervening days, he'll be posting comments on Slashdot about how everything is the customer's fault. #3 will have a long, successful stay at his company, which will reap the rewards of his hard work.

    --
    If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
    1. Re:Three types of support people by tazbert · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No - #3 will have a short stay at his company, moving on when it becomes obvious that all his management chain cares about is his average handle time, not the quality of his support.

    2. Re:Three types of support people by kentmartin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      [i]#3 will have a long, successful stay at his company, which will reap the rewards of his hard work.[/i]

      Will the fairies on his planet help him? Your idea of reaping the rewards gives us all the warm fuzzies, but such ideals sadly belong to the generation before us.

      Seriously, part of the problem is it is no longer seen as cost effective to hold onto good employees. Take the UK, sometimes people can wheedle(sp?) an extra couple of grand from their employer every year or 3, but, a 10 grand pay rise doesn't even raise an eyebrow when someone changes company.

    3. Re:Three types of support people by toddbu · · Score: 1

      Will the fairies on his planet help him? Your idea of reaping the rewards gives us all the warm fuzzies, but such ideals sadly belong to the generation before us. If you had read the summary, it said "... 85% of customers who had their problems resolved by calling a PC call center said they would continue doing business with the company." I agree that many managers may not realize that these numbers exist, but your comment about ideals belonging to the generation before us is clearly untrue.
      --
      If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
    4. Re:Three types of support people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "#3 will have a long, successful stay at his company, which will reap the rewards of his hard work."

      Too bad this isn't true. Support people are rarely promoted and companies are always trying to outsource these staff because they consider them overhead and not part of the core business.

    5. Re:Three types of support people by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Seriously, part of the problem is it is no longer seen as cost effective to hold onto good employees. Take the UK, sometimes people can wheedle(sp?) an extra couple of grand from their employer every year or 3, but, a 10 grand pay rise doesn't even raise an eyebrow when someone changes company.

      This has been true in tech in the USA at least as long as I've been in it (some twelve years now or so.) Getting a raise is like pulling teeth unless you are a) a big ass-kisser and b) very lucky. Not or, but and. But when you change jobs it's easy, unless you got your ass fired or something.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Three types of support people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked at a phone support company for a while to try and get on my feet right after college. I knew what I was talking about and I wanted to help. Those are not the ones that have "long, successful stay" at the companies. The ones that try and get a quick fix to get call times downs are the ones that screw you over. Nothing better than getting one of those calling back and it takes you 10 minutes to fix the issue when the other guy just told them to try something and call back if it didn't work. Guess which one gets praised by the company? Guess which one ends up with heartburn because of trying to help some of these people. The worst ones are the ones that called up telling me they had some cert or degrees and were convinced they knew more about the system than I did. I wanted to ask them why the hell they were calling me then...

    7. Re:Three types of support people by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      you think any of that repeat business money will go to a pay rise for the techsupport guy on phone? I think it will go for a bonus to the very PHB who was trying to make techsupport guy answer calls faster with no regard to quality. Meanwhile techsupport guy, stays on minimum wage.

    8. Re:Three types of support people by MoneyT · · Score: 1

      You've never been number 3 have you? Let me tell you how that works. You have management down your back because you're taking up a lot of time with each customer (good quality tech support takes time) and making more work for other people, plus you're not getting through enough people and so the company is spending more on each person who you're helping.

      As if that wasn't bad enough, every other customer starts every conversation with you bitching about how long they had to wait for service (remember good quality tech support takes time). Inevitably half of them have no clue what they're talking about, and are so jaded from other tech support experiences they don't belive you.

      On top of all of that, at least 5% of your customers will have entirely unreasonable demands, where even after speding every reasonable effort to resolve their problem they're still not satisfied. These people will take up the most of your time and generate more problems from paragraph 1 and 2.

      Good, quality, fast and efficient tech support can be had. But until people are willing to pay what a business pays for business class support, tech support for consumers will always be shit.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    9. Re:Three types of support people by Adambomb · · Score: 1

      I do not know about callcenters you have seen but having worked in cellphone customer service, tech support, and now insurance sales. What i've seen is the quality requirements of most HR departments depends entirely on the possibilities of liability.

      The company i worked with for celphone customer service did NOT want #3's. #3's lead to long handling times, people noticing the spin on marketing, and setups that are efficient (read: low margin). The #1's are perfect so long as they meet statistics requirements, as the clueless and "care less" rarely suggest the most efficient setups.

      In this industry we were basically a liability buffer to keep customers busy for as close to 90 days as possible in the event of any billing error (thanks to Canada's Consumer "Protection" Act, which states that once 90 days have gone by from an invoicing date the charges can be considered valid regardless. Now I dont know if this has even been challenged in court as of yet myself, as I still don't understand how a service providor can force one to pay for a service it can be PROVEN they did not use. This was what we had to tell our clients though)

      In tech support, you could be correct. From people I've spoken with, and the company I worked with, it seems to vary quite a bit. The peril here was that I worked for a subcontractor who was publicly traded. This led to one goal for the company: Meet or Beat the contract requirements, or else (as they would pay punitive amounts if they failed to meet the metrics). This led to the most horrible practices amongst other reps to find ways to dump callers, give easy answers, etc. #3's are especially hated here as doing the job RIGHT is failing to meet the metrics.

      In both of the above cases, the company had a clause disclaiming all liability of the agents on the phones actions (unsure if that had been tested in court here in canada either). In both cases, the bottom of the barrel is perfect, so long as the scrapings keep up with the metrics. Indecipherable accents[1] or poor attitudes are pretty much an ASSET in these situations as they indirectly lower your average handling times significantly (people hanging up angry, people giving up in general, etc).

      In insurance sales however, it seems to be the exact opposite. The sold policies are audited every which way from tuesday, and any imprecision is immediately coached. The particular company I work for seems to be aware that Insurance companies going to court against a client is NEVER going to be in a favorable light, so everyone HAS to know a fair a mount and HAS to care about the customer. You still run into average handling time type issues but its a secondary concern to accuracy (unless you cant become accurate AND reasonably quick).

      I really do not know how anyone can compare these types of call centers "qualities" either, as they all perform VERY different tasks. Tech support has to be the biggest shot in the dark in the history of support (see the various posts about complex general purpose systems).

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    10. Re:Three types of support people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please, I'm a #3! Don't scare me like that! The minute I find something better I am GONE!

      BTW, I do Internet support, and no one here reads from a script--that would be insane. Extracting the issue from some of the people is like brain surgery. Some people are clueless, but that's normal because the bar to entry is so low and the good people tend not to stick around.

    11. Re:Three types of support people by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      In my experiences as a techie, the people I've seen get promoted and stay with the company are:

      - People who get the customer off the phone the fastest without helping them:
      By transferring calls, telling customers to re-installing their OS, etc
      - People who go out to the local bar drinking with management (this is not an exaggeration)
      - People who just plain get over-friendly with management (I'd be too embarrassed myself to try such obvious ass-kissing)
      - People who just don't have the skills to find another job

      The people I've seen not sticking with the company are always the more competent who can find higher paying jobs (no matter how marginal the pay rise would be).

      I'd have to agree with the fact that your ideals don't match up to reality (at least with my many and varied experiences)in the call centre industry.

    12. Re:Three types of support people by nothingtodo · · Score: 1

      >> #3 will have a long, successful stay at his company, which will reap the rewards of his >>hard work. You must not live in reality, because those that know a good amount and care about the customer quickly get burned out with a job taking calls because it's all about number of calls taken, not necessarily whether a problem was fixed or not. First time fix? Who cares? All the call center is concerned about is how long you're logged into the system and that you should be doing two things: Either on a call or waiting in avail for one. It appears to be more important to know HOW to talk to the customer rather than knowing the skills to resolve the problem in the first place. Eventually most burned out call techs don't care about stats, and take time not taking calls to update their resume and look for jobs online.

      --
      -- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
    13. Re:Three types of support people by Archangel_Azazel · · Score: 1

      --I do not know about callcenters you have seen but having worked in cellphone customer service, tech support, and now insurance sales.--

      Just a few things:
      I've never worked cellphone customer service, but otherwise, I think you're my clone. I just got my license to sell Life/Health ins. *chuckles* Now then, on to my experiences.

      Oh the stories. There was a guy who figured out how to get spectacular call times. "Hi, thank you for calling--[click]" "Hi, thank you [click]" about 5-10 in a row and then he'd take a couple of calls. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. He got promoted. I wish I was kidding. Mind you, I got bitched at weekly because my call times were much higher than most people. Why you may ask? Because I usually got the guy who had just gotten off tech support...for the fourth time...and they told him to wave a magic wand over his computer and wave his mouse in the air. Well, it didn't work (suprise!) so I had to spend the next 45 minutes trying to get him back online. I worked for one of the largest outsourcing companies for internet tech support that a certain *cough*deathstar*cough* company had, and they DID figure out how to game the system. In spades. When I started working there, call times had to be less than 600 seconds (10 minutes.) When I left, it was down to 450. Then there was the time I heard "Ok, click start...run...now type in the following : r-e-g-e-d-i-t. Yes that's right." It got worse from there. Mind you, we weren't doing full blown computer support, just internet and e-mail tech support. I figured the guy was going to go in, delete some critical keys, and then say "oh wow, looks like your computer is messed up, would you like the number for Micro$oft tech support?"

      I will **NEVER** work tech support again as long as I live, and I can see why people think it sucks ass.

      [/rant]

      My two cents,
      A.A

      --
      Your mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's been opened.
    14. Re:Three types of support people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Erh... no. #3 will be replaced by outsourcing to India or China in a few weeks, and if he can do more than answer support calls, he'll move up in the corp chain, else he'll be joining his coworkers.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:Three types of support people by evanknight · · Score: 1

      ++; pulling up careerbuilder now...

      --
      Well, its not quite a mop, and its not quite a puppet, but man.. So to answer your question I don't know.
    16. Re:Three types of support people by Adambomb · · Score: 1

      Heh, no surprises to me there. I think those of us with our mindset are pretty common. Just think of the high amount of turnover you saw while at the tech jobs. Many of those heading out the door are exactly like us.

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
  9. Phone Support for PCs are a Bad Idea by roseanne · · Score: 1

    It's easy to laugh at PC call centres, but I think the problem is in the nature of the PC itself. It does many things and isn't quite an appliance. There are just too many failure points in software, especially on a system administered by novices.

    That said, PC support over the phone is a ridiculous idea. If PC vendors really wanted to improve customer service experience, they should add screenshare software into their BIOS (with an obvious hardware kill switch). When you can actually *see* the other desktop, lots of problems become easy. (And if the network is fubar-ed so this BIOS-based screen share doesn't work, give the customer an onsite visit (charge for it if it's not in the service plan).

    1. Re:Phone Support for PCs are a Bad Idea by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      With the low wages and thankless bosses/customers and high churn rate of tech support?! Are you crazy? I'm sure those passwords will stay secure for about a day. Not to mention you would open up a HUGE channel for phishing. "Hello, we are from Dell and need to use your screen to run a few commands to check the status of your computer. We have been getting some cases of broken computers giving out data they shouldn't and we want to make sure yours isn't corrupted"

    2. Re:Phone Support for PCs are a Bad Idea by roseanne · · Score: 1

      Well, there are ways to securely log in remotely without requiring passwords (you could always make the customer read out a number which would be a one-time token), limit the software to accepting connections from specific IP blocks only -- I'm sure security pros can flesh those issues out. However, yes, if you don't trust someone, you shouldn't let them see your screen, esp since you might have things like your tax returns on your PC (or, um, photos you'd rather keep private).

      But the fact remains that thousands of on-phone support reps ask tens of thousands of novices to run EXEs, alter their registry, etc everyday (even run things like LogMeIn and Webex); and it hasn't become a big phishing channel. Most call centers know that they need to ensure their employees are on the up and up -- or go out of business.

    3. Re:Phone Support for PCs are a Bad Idea by nasor · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are surely many challenges associated with trouble-shooting PCs that arise because of their complex nature. But things like

      1) Support personnel who don't speak comprehensible English

      2) Support personnel who don't actually have any clue how to fix anything

      3) Support personnel who are only concerned about getting you off the phone as quickly as possible

      do not have anything to do with the nature of computers.

  10. Perhaps It's the Users by BlueMikey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I had a friend who once worked at an AOL call center in the Mac division. Real transcript: AOL: "What type of Mac do you have?" Caller: "Uh...tangerine?" Maybe the callers think the service is so shitty because they don't know that the problem is fixed or because they can't provide good enough information to the agent to get it fixed. I've had 10 times the problems with cable company call centers than I have with any other, including PC manufacturers.

    1. Re:Perhaps It's the Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Real transcript: AOL: "What type of Mac do you have?" Caller: "Uh...tangerine?"

      Having done Mac support, I have to say that getting a response of "tangerine" out of a customer is better than just getting "an iMac" as an answer. At least with the tangerine ones, there were only two or three models made, and they were all very similar. While I certainly see the humor in the post, it was actually a very informative answer.

    2. Re:Perhaps It's the Users by Mattintosh · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Tangerine" tells a good Mac tech exactly what type of Mac that user has. It's a "tangerine" iMac with a 266 or 333MHz G3 processor (PPC750, IBM-style, with copper tracing instead of aluminum), between 64 (most likely) and 256 (max) MB of RAM (PC66 168-pin DIMM), a 24x CD-ROM drive, a 4 or 6 GB HDD (ATA/33), 10/100 Ethernet, an ATI Rage Pro LT 8MB video accelerator, and a 17" CRT screen.

      But your point stands for other, less-distinctive types of hardware.

    3. Re:Perhaps It's the Users by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      Ok, how about if it is a beige PC? ;)

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    4. Re:Perhaps It's the Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's any sort of name-brand machine, then chances are good that it was made before 2001 and is thus obsolete. : p

    5. Re:Perhaps It's the Users by Ender_Stonebender · · Score: 1

      Actual transcript of a PC support call (from when I worked for a certain ISP well-known for sending out unsolicited copies of the software needed to connect to them):

      Me: What version of Windows are you using?
      Customer: Dell.

      --
      Loose things are easy to lose. You're getting your hair cut. They're going there to see their aunt.
  11. No Surprise by Frenchy_2001 · · Score: 1

    Call centers are cost centers. Support is part of the purchase cost and with razor thin margins, you can only get bottom support.
    Compound the low pay with the high technical expectations and you get a recipe for a disaster. Doing it over the phone makes it even worse.

    In summary, PCs are complex, the customers are for the most part not very good with it to start with, problems can be very complex, interface is so rich that it is difficult to describe over the phone and tech level needs to be high to diagnose problems when the pay needs to be low to keep margins.

    It is an impossible situation. In a few years (yeah, right...), with more savvy customers and maybe video conferencing, you may reach a point where you can diagnose remotely. Or remote access to the computer (hello, security breach).

    For those of you that have had the pleasure to diagnose computer problems remotely for your family, you know what i am talking about. This is what the people on the other end of the phone face every day...

    1. Re:No Surprise by Kashgarinn · · Score: 1

      I work for an international Computer Support company which specializes in being lvl 1, 2 and 3 support for pc client and server infrastructure for companies (the helpdesk itself takes care of most lvl 1 and 2 problems), and the model is that we get payed if we solve the problem.

      Companies know that proper computer infrastructure support is one of the best tools to keep downtime costs low as well as the employees content. 2 of the most important factors regarding tools people use everyday.

      Most normal people don't think about how much their time are worth when they are doing stuff at home, they don't value their personal time the same as companies do their employees time, equaling it to being almost worthless, when in fact it isn't.

      But, if you think your time has no value, that means any delays in your personal work because of computer problems are acceptable delays, acceptable loss of time, or if not acceptable, that solving the problem should cost as little as possible, again because people think personal-time value doesn't equal to company-time value and thus money spent on solving downtime issues should be low.

      However, Good technical support is based on good technical people, and the only way to get good technical people is to pay them proper wages.

      This means that people need to reevaluate how much their time is worth, is it better to try and figure the problem out for yourself, taking perhaps a few hours, even days to find a solution, or do you contact a support company who can help you diagnose your problem within a few minutes, and let you know the proper steps to take to solve your problem, even solving it on the phone.

      If people are annoyed and angry regarding the support they are getting (for free or little value), then their expectations are what's really to blame. I do know of people who think that 1) any kind of support should be free and 2) any problem should be fixed instantly no matter how big or small or worst of all 3) that any irritation of having a problem in the first place gives you the right to be angry or annoyed towards the person you're asking for assistance. Thankfully most of the companies we support do not have these expectations, and if they do, then we make it our goal to inform them how we work as a company, who they are talking to on a daily basis and what our procedures are like and what time-frame estimates they should expect their problems to be solved in.

      If a company promises quality service, but underpays their staff, has a shoddy "follow-this-manuscript" level of support, and hires people with no technical know-how because you can pay them less, then that's a breach of advertising.

      If Fox could lose the rights to use "Fair and balanced" for not being fair and balanced, then tech companies should only be allowed to use "quality support service" when they actually have it, as in my humble opinion "quality support service" really should mean something.

      K.

  12. Partly depends on customer's abilities by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 3, Funny

    As anyone who's done any kind of support knows, a significant chunk of troubleshooting/support depends on the customer's ability to follow directions. When the support person says "I need you to click here and do this. Now read to me EXACTLY what the window that opens up says," they expect the person to do that. It doesn't help when the person on the other end does something else then says "It's not opening a window that says anything" or they say "It's giving me an error message" [duh, that was the point!] rather than "It says 'Program terminated. Error code: PEBKAC'". Yes, some companies have abysmal support. But sometimes the people asking for support don't help the problem either.

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:Partly depends on customer's abilities by Rodness · · Score: 1
      Amen!!!

      I literally received this email from one of my users yesterday, from his home address since he was having a problem accessing the corporate external web mail server:

      The e-mail has be dying the last couple of days and can't send e-mail about the e-mail I was so overwhelmed with the articulate and detailed description of the problem that I didn't know what to check first. (/sarcasm)
    2. Re:Partly depends on customer's abilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, *YOU* are the exact sort these people are complaining about.

    3. Re:Partly depends on customer's abilities by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      And these are exactly the sort of people who go to an auto mechanic and say nothing more specific than "My car's making funny noises" and then get upset when the problem isn't fixed after a week of tests and diagnostics. You know what? Some people can't be helped.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    4. Re:Partly depends on customer's abilities by r3m0t · · Score: 1

      Helping people fix their car over the phone, if people knew cars like they knew computers:

      "OK, so you've got the car now, can you open the front for me?"

      Customer: "Yes, here it is"

      "Can you see a red thing?"

      Customer: "No, my dog's here"

      "That's the back of the car. You want the other side"

      Customer: "They should be labelled *mutter mutter* OK, I'm going to need to leave the phone hanging now..."

      *techie sighs secretly* "OK..."

  13. Could the people be at fault? by cyberianpan · · Score: 1

    nearly 73% of the people who have bad experiences Possiby those people may not be very good with computers & would have had problems with any helpdesk.

    Too many companies treat call centers as cost centers rather than seeing them as an opportunity to solidify the customer relationship, resulting in increased loyalty and retention Also how many computer users need to ring heldesks ? Might not more bad, cranky & mad users ring the desks ? I'm not convinced that helpdesk callers are repesentative of users.

    1. Re:Could the people be at fault? by redheaded_stepchild · · Score: 1

      Easy way to find out - restrict support to email. If they can't figure that out, they'll probably blame you for it anyway.

      --
      Don't use the Troll mod just because you disagree with me.
  14. any reason to be pissed off by jhutchens · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Americans these days jump at any opertunity to be un-happy with just about anything, and asking if their unhappy only permits them to be more un-happy and express it loudly.

    1. Re:any reason to be pissed off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      asking if their unhappy

      It's "they're", not "their".

      YOU FUCKING IDIOT!!!!

    2. Re:any reason to be pissed off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC, you missed the opportunity to apply spelling-nazi skills on "opertunity".

      your rediculous.

    3. Re:any reason to be pissed off by jhutchens · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the correction dick. You probably have nothing to say so stick to trolling for grammar errors.

  15. Sale Call Center Work by snowgirl · · Score: 1

    I did some work inbound call sales work (that means I didn't call people, they called us) and signed them up for PeoplePC... Wow... eventually, I quit, and when I was asked why, I told my boss's boss that $8.50 an hour wasn't worth my time, when he asked why, I said I have a bachelor's degree. Then the idiot had the nerve to say "Well, I have a bachelor's degree, too!" It's like... uh, but you don't earn $8.50 an hour now do you?

    Now I work for a large software company and probably make 2 or 3 times his salary... :)

    --
    WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    1. Re:Sale Call Center Work by rafaMEX · · Score: 1

      hehe im going to guess you're in USA, well for this very reason US companies outsource the phone tech support to india and mexico (here at Mexico we speak with a more more clear accent tho, try hp for example), AND THEN people complain about the ugly accent of the call centers in India, AND in Mexico. :/ we're doing the job you guys don't want! :P

    2. Re:Sale Call Center Work by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I had a guy complain to me that our Tech Support was in India, but I knew for a fact that none of our tech support was in India.

      However, we did have an indian worker in the US that was doing tech support.

      I don't know if the guy actually believed me that he was absolutely in America...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  16. yea by phone.. by tempest69 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ok, I ate some troll bait here.

    Having done some tech support over the phone a decade ago, I know that some things can actually be done over the phone. ISP support for one isnt too bad if you have a decent technician. The problem is that they dont pay the price for a technician, so they force a script down the throats of the support personel, and caos ensues.

    Your best bet is to call tech support BEFORE YOU BUY... call the line, wait a few minutes on hold, if they dont pick up with a real person in a timely fasion, skip the purchase.... your not being treated right. If the voice on the other end is hard to understand, skip it again... if they pause when you ask a reasonable question like "I have a pixel in the middle of my screen that is always red, is that normal" run like mad..

    Unless you have no need for warranty work or tech support check the support out, your paying for it.

    Storm

  17. You Sir, Are Misinformed. by asphaltjesus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you become a part of the average big soul-sucking support center, what passes as productivity is **precisely** tracked.

    Read the following carefully.

    -No caring.
    -Know nothing. They provide scripts. Don't _ever_ deviate from the scripts.

    If you are with me so far, read on carefully.

    Call center productivity is *NEVER* measured by customer satisfaction. It is measured as calls per unit of time. Period.

    Take a moment to comprehend the implications of the previous statement before moving on.

    If you meet/exceed the calls per hour (or whatever) then another component of your productivity is the number of parts shipped. More parts bad, less parts gets you an atta-boy from your manager and maybe even a shiny nickel.

    Finally, a call center is most profitable when there is a queue. Fewer support people processing more calls per hour = profit & productivity.

    --
    Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
    1. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      Bingo!

      I worked phone support for a financial firm (via a contracted company) one summer as temp work. They would get mad at me if I was too quick in helping customers because the call had to be a minimum time length for them to bill the firm. So I had to purposefully slow down and delay the customer.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    2. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      Yea, this could be solved by your employer having a statement in the contract that "Each support call will have a 10 minute duration, minimum" or some similar legalese. Like if AT&T has to go onsite...sure, they're there 15 minutes, but they bill you 4 hours minimum or something insane...

    3. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Call center productivity is *NEVER* measured by customer satisfaction

      only if the call center sucks (and most do).

      i know. my day job is ISP tech support (Sasktel). average call times are tracked, though pretty much for trivia purposes.

      our main stat is the resolve rate. basically, when you solve a problem and close the case, does the customer call back about the same problem within 3 days? if they do, it evidently wasn't fixed and you missed something or made a faulty assumption or something else. we shoot for 80%+ on this.

      another is our wrap time. basically, once you finish a call, how long until you're back in the queue and ready for another?

      another of the guys around here worked at other places before. once place mandated a call time of 10 minutes and they did PC support, meaning calls ranging from 2 minute "where is the internet" calls to 4-hour "format, reinstall, reconfigure" calls, so they were firing people left, right, and center for violating that policy (dunno if they got a clue yet, as he left that job 4 years ago)

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    4. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Call center productivity is *NEVER* measured by customer satisfaction. It is measured as calls per unit of time. Period.

      As someone who likes my units to have snazzy names, I propose that "Calls per unit time" be forthwith referred to as a "Dell".

    5. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by mittspk · · Score: 1

      Maybe from your experience but I work in a tech support centre for one the UKs biggest broadband providers. Although average handling time is highly important, believe me, customer satisfaction comes first. Then call time. Okay, it's great we make money if we take more calls in the short term, but when that customer tells thier friends how awful our customer service is.. You get the idea? I briefly worked in the quality ascessment team and I've seen people loose their job from consistently poor customer service. Also bonuses are offered for people who have consistently high customer service. Incase anyone was wondering, ability to diagnose and fix is also taken into account.

    6. Re:You Sir, Are Misinformed. by rfreedman · · Score: 1

      I work for a second-tier telecom. Just came back from several days observing our call center operations, and talking to the customer service reps and their supervisors.

      The most surprising thing that I encountered was a customer service rep being severely reprimanded for having an average call duration that was too short.

      Obviously, an average call duration that's too long is bad too, but the managers here figure that a short average call duration means that you're not really helping the customers.

  18. Wrong by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Informative

    2 stays because management believes that the person has a clue. And if 1 has a nice enough personality, they will stay as well. 3 will normally move on.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  19. My good experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Trying to decide on a RAM upgrade many years ago, I call the tech support of a major manufacturer to get some information on the motherboard.

    Me: Does this motherboard require parity RAM?
    Tech Support: Yes, the RAM needs to be installed in pairs.

  20. Completely unfair comparison! by burnttoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Banking, insurance even cable can be sorted out over the phone (unless your cable box has HCF'd). If a PC goes wrong then phone support is never going to be useful unless resetting does actually fix things. Even navigating your way through to a potentially incorrect setting is incredibly hard over the phone. Users don't listen properly, get frustrated and confused when they see the control panel for the first time if the machine is actually dead then it'll need to be RMA'd.

    Both myself and the bank, cable company, insurance firm can get their hands on my account and/or their hardware (f'nar f'nar) and fix things if broken.

    Many times I've tried to help people with their computers over the phone but when the problem is "I hit the power button and nothing happens" there's precious little I can do (other than get them to check connections) unless I can actually get there with a screwdriver.

    Much as I hate computer as car analogues I wouldn't phone BMW and ask them to help me fix my Mini's engine over the phone! It just wouldn't work especially as I, like the poor broken computer users, I am no mechanic.

    Ah well. My Mum bought a (pretty crap) PC a few years back but she deliberately bought it from a shop about 5 miles away. If it blows up instead of having to post the thing back or arrange pick up a bloke comes out with a screwdriver set and some spares. She paid more for that service but it was invaluable when lightning fried the modem.

    --
    Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
  21. PEBCAK by splatterboy · · Score: 1

    In a great number of cases...

    --
    "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." ~The Honorable Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    1. Re:PEBCAK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those that don't get it: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair

    2. Re:PEBCAK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those that don't get it: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair

      Actually we knew what it meant even though it was and still is spelled incorrectly in the subject line. In fact many of us probably thought of that when we first read the title of the story submission.

  22. Nonsense by iknownuttin · · Score: 1
    Usually, u cannot solve your problems only with help from the service rep. you need to know some computer skill yourself.

    I agree. But when it's activation codes and other nonsense that they the company force on me, that's their fault. I've learned - that's why I don't do business with them.

    Those people already works hard.

    So? Working hard doesn't give one license to treat the customer rudely. Otherwise, customers will leave, like me, and if enough customers get mad and leave, then those "customer service" people will be out of a job. Which is their problem. I vote with my money. I've given up a long time ago complaining and arguing with "customer service" people. Their job is to make me go away so that their management can keep their margins up.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
  23. Dunder-Mifflin Ranked High by no_pets · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of the episode of The Office (U.S.) where Dwight and Jim go on a sales call. Jim is working on making the sale while Dwight calls up the support line for their competitor and lands in an automated system. Meanwhile Jim calls up Dunder-Mifflin and gets Pam immediately.

    Of course this is just fiction and Dunder-Mifflin is quite the screwed up company (why we love it so much) but they have one thing right - human contact on the phones.

    --
    "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." - Shepard Book Quoting Malcolm Reynolds
    1. Re:Dunder-Mifflin Ranked High by bhmit1 · · Score: 1

      they have one thing right - human contact on the phones.
      And they have one thing wrong, they can't compete on price because of the high overhead. If independent organizations ranked computers based on support, quality, etc, and placed that rank right next to the price tag, things might be different. But until then, the uneducated consumer will buy based on the one piece of data they have there.
  24. Expectations out of whack by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Computers are becoming like automobiles in terms of the cost and effort to maintain and fix. People want instant solutions on the cheap, which is unrealistic. The problem is that cars cost dozens of thousands of dollars such that people *expect* service to expensive. The retail price of PC's might be much lower than a car, but the maintenance and repair cost is not. If PC's would stop changing, then they would settle and become a commodity to fix or replace; but change pace prevents that. (MS-Windows being goofy doesn't help.) If people knew the real costs, they'd probably buy a Mac.

    1. Re:Expectations out of whack by Udderdude · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, most people only look at the up-front cost. Not the cost when they have to send the PC back to Circuit City 4 times a year to clean out the badware it's collected.

    2. Re:Expectations out of whack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What real costs? My parents have a couple of PCs and a couple of laptops, all windows, and have never had the kind of software problems that a mac/linux would automatically solve. AFAIK the only time they've ever got a tech in is for a broken laptop screen. They're not exactly geeks either, they're smart enough to install a free firewall and AV package and that's it. My mother even sent me a chain email last week, which shows what kind of noobs they are.

      This is coming from someone who isn't particularly enamoured with Macs but wouldn't be without some form of unix system.

  25. Exactly! by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Or maybe they stop trying when they hear your "thick foreign accent" :)

    Exactly! You know, folks got so pissed at me when I did customer support in China. They couldn't understand a word I said - even though I speak perfect English! Go figure! I was hired as a support person by management. But nooooooooo, the Chinese are so racist they refuse to learn and take the time to understand me! After all, they're the customer and they should adjust to me because they are giving me!

    Isn't that the attitude with a lot of companies these days?

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
  26. significance? by binarybum · · Score: 1

    The clustering of scores for different industries sound pretty tight with a range of 64-77. I dug around just a little, but didn't find any descriptives. Anyone able to figure out what the confidence intervals are? I'm a little skeptical about there being a real difference between some of these ratings.

    --
    ôó
  27. customers are partly to blame by mo · · Score: 1

    It would be unfortunate to lay all of the blame for this on the corporations providing the support. When you combine an incredibly complex piece of machinery such as a computer and it's OS with a customer base that refuses to pay extra for support, this is what happens. The field of questions that a general PC tech support rep is expected to answer is insanely broad. You can't pay the bare minimum for tech-support staff and expect them to be able to field these questions with any competancy, and scripting will only get you so far. But consumers have a lot of trouble paying for intangibles like "good support". So retailers have to bake-in the support costs into their product and only provide the bare minimum of help.

    This is especially evident in the open-source world. Even when people get the software for free, they feel entitled to help from the project owners. However, when people try to charge for support services, customers balk at paying. Only when you get to very-large corporations with very deep support requirements does the support/services gig become profitable.

    1. Re:customers are partly to blame by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      So retailers have to bake-in the support costs into their product and only provide the bare minimum of help.

      I don't think this is the case anymore. The retailers have figured out that

      a) customers don't want to pay for something they aren't going to use(or they think they won't use).
      b) Manufacturers often provide crap support from a customer standpoint because as shown from this article, it's damned hard to do tech support over the phone for a computer.
      c) They can differentiate their offerings from Dell et al by having in store and on site support.

      You see this from Circuit City's Firedog and Best Buy's Geek Squad. They sell the extra warrenty which includes in store checks and hardware fixes. You also offer walk in service for up to X minutes to fix simple configuration problems.

      These are things that is hard for mail order to provide.

      I'm sure many customers like being able to walk in to where they bought the PC and ask questions, or have it looked at - or even call a local place where you can then see the person you called when you come in.

      Dell can't really do that. And some customers are willing to pay that extra $70-$300 for support and hardware coverage. Those who don't want it save the money, those who do, spend the money.

      I would think to some extent, manufacturers could try and see how many support contracts Best Buy et al are selling to see if maybe there is a large enough base who would pay more for better support. Then again, better support in that case probably doesn't mean over the phone.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  28. Too many potential problems by gilesjuk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    PCs have so many problems, so many different causes of problems. Hardware can cause crashes and problems, software can cause crashes and problems.

    Before the Internet you wouldn't have so many different patch levels.

    PC Tech support is hard, no mistake.

  29. reason by blhack · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is because computer tech support is actually a pretty specialized skill. It isn't something like calling visa where they have a flowchart of 5 problems in front of them.

    Unfortunately, the people running the call centers don't realize this. They give their employees the same sort of flow charts that are given in "non-specialized" fields.

    There are people out there with the skills required to to these jobs very very well. Some companies, like intermec (mobile computer manufacturer), zebra (industrial printer manufacturer), or CLI (provider of dumb terminals for As/400 systems) hire very very good people. I have even gotten the same person on multiple calls who recognized me "Hey RYAN! did you get that battery charger replacement i sent you?"

    Unfortunately, it hurts the bottom line to pay skilled labor, so the end user ends up suffering.

    --
    NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    1. Re:reason by homer_s · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it hurts the bottom line to pay skilled labor,

      No, paying more to an employee will increase the cost of the computer; which means the consumer will not purchase it. *That* is why you don't see good customer support.

      I have yet to see someone say "I bought an XYZ computer because of their excellent customer support" - when price is all a consumer cares about, companies naturally cut customer service costs.

    2. Re:reason by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      Companies should just say up-front that there is no free customer support. It should not be included in the price of the PC. They shouldn't IMHO lie to customers by saying they get free technical support when instead they will really only be dealing with a customer service representative who only has minimal support skills, product knowledge, and training.

      Customers will be more satisfied to pay for support when they really need it, rather than getting the run-around and negative experiences from customer service representatives.

      It is more a problem of companies giving pseudo-support, than blaming a naive customer that their cheap PC is not worth any type of quality support that can actually fix their problem.

    3. Re:reason by blhack · · Score: 1

      No, paying more to an employee will increase the cost of the computer; which means the consumer will not purchase it. *That* is why you don't see good customer support. What grade are you in?
      Say you are selling computers for $500 a piece. You sell 10 computers. This means that you have $5000 gross. If you need to spend $1000 on tech support, you have $1000 material costs, you have spent $1000 on payroll, and you have spent $1000 renting your building. You have netted $1000. If you decide to upgrade your tech support, and now you are spending $1500 on tech support, you are now netting $500. Losing that $500 is referred to as "hurting the bottom line" because when you take your total amount of money, on the top line, put all of your deductions below it, each on their own line, the line on the bottom will be your total profit, or net.

      So to upgrade the tech support, which would cost more, would "hurt the bottom line".
      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    4. Re:reason by ewhenn · · Score: 1

      Customers will be more satisfied to pay for support when they really need it, rather than getting the run-around and negative experiences from customer service representatives.

      =====================

      This is only partially true. Say I buy a PC from Dell, two months later the memory dies (you tested via memtest86+ to confirm this). You call in to Dell and tell them taht you have bad RAM and it needs to be replaces. The cust service rep tells you to call support at 1.99 a min. So, you call their support and 30 mins and $60 later you are told it's bad RAM and it needs to be replaced... somethign you knew all along.

      Under this new model you get your RAM replaced, jsut like under the old model, except you are out $60 to boot.

    5. Re:reason by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      Yes life is complicated :)

      Of course there are assumptions under my model. My idea is to focus the company's efforts on quality support rather than hiring androids reading off scripts, to put it simply.

      A company could, for example, have refund policies for obvious problems like defects. From my experiences as a techie companies generally do offer refunds for tech calls, they just don't advertise it, and it is often up to the customer to complain or ask for a refund.

      The emphasis in my opinion should be on integrity on the company's part, and not just focusing on a bottom line numerical statistic that managers have to achieve every month. These numerical goals generally don't have very much basis in reality. I am sure there would be a lot a management types who would argue with me on this point, but as a front line worker I am standing firm.

      Also, let's say for example, that the consumer saved $60.00 on the PC because technical support was not figured into the cost of the computer. The customer really wouldn't be any worse otherwise.

      I do realize there are a lot of assumptions involved, but over-all I think it is a better idea. I think customers would rather pay for good support up-front than get hours on hold, being transfered, etc. for poor support or perhaps totally useless support.

  30. I was unsatisfied too by Ranger · · Score: 1

    I worked in a call center that supported PC's and other electronic gadgets for a office supply store chain. I worked for an outsourcing call center. I switched from supporting a cell phone carrier which sucked major ass. The PC support side was a little better because if the EU (end user/customer) didn't want to co-operate I didn't have to help them. I know why most customers were unsatisfied because the majority of solutions with PC's were doing a system restore. This usually meant losing all those family pics.

    And if they had to get their printer replaced with their extended warranty, the replacement came from yet another third party and we no longer supported the replacement. They had to get support from a third party for a third party.

    --
    "You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
    1. Re:I was unsatisfied too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last time someone told me do a System restore, I did a parallel install instead. The problem was what I thought it was: network card bad. They had to send a replacement (four year warranty came in handy that day).

  31. Almost correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    #3 gets their job outsourced to India because he costs more than #1

    Then the complaints begin and customer satisfaction plummets.

  32. the travel industry is worse by FredGray · · Score: 1

    I would have to say that the airlines and online travel agencies are far worse than any of the industries mentioned here. Most of the people in the India (etc.) based call centers have never been on a trip by plane, and they simply don't understand the realities of travel.

  33. No, the problem is... by sterno · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reality is that PC support is inherently more complex. There are more moving parts in a PC. The end user has far more ability to alter the proper operation of the system but changing software and components. There's a hell of a lot more that can go wrong in a PC, it's much harder to diagnose, and that is why customer satisfaction is low.

    When was the last time you installed more memory on your cable box, or upgraded the operating system? Cell phones are getting more complex, but by and large they are self contained systems that don't get modified much either. I'm sure that customer satisfaction will decline, the more phones become like PC's.

    It's just the nature of the beast.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
    1. Re:No, the problem is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      parent definitely insightful.

      along the same lines, if "brain surgery kits" existed for consumers the title of the slashdot submission would be: BSK call centers garner lowest satisfaction.

  34. Any reason to act superior... by MoeDrippins · · Score: 1

    > Americans these days jump at any opertunity [sic] to be un-happy [sic] with just about anything, and asking if their [sic] unhappy only permits them to be more un-happy [sic] and express it loudly.

    Self important Europeans these days jump at any opportunity to denigrate Americans for just about anything, and asking if why they're so pompous only permits them to be more pretentious and express it loudly.

    --
    Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
  35. The customer is always wrong by ylikone · · Score: 1

    Here is the difference between computer tech support and banking, cell phone service, cable and satellite television, and insurance support. When people are dealing with their computers, they suddenly become imbeciles. It's like some sort of magic curse that is placed upon them. Tech support is extremely nerve grating... because the customers are idiots. I did phone tech support for an ISP for a year... worst job I ever had. And I was the one that repeat call-ins requested because I was the nicest to them.

    --
    Meh.
    1. Re:The customer is always wrong by red+crab · · Score: 1

      Interesting. As a customer, my experiences with my ISP's call center were not exactly satisfactory. The problem with most tech support people is that they think that their callers are morons. Once, my net connection was down. I called up my ISP customer support. Explained that my DSL router was not getting an IP, turning it on and off did not help. She kept asking me all the time which particular site I was trying to access and that the sites that I was trying to access might be down or slow. It was of no use to explain her that I wasn't even able to ping an outside host. She probably didn't even understand the terms 'IP' and 'ping'. In another instance, when I called up the customer care to complain about the spped of connection, she (not the same person) advised me to got to McAfee site and get a trial AV download.

      It's not that I haven't had good experiences with tech support. Dell server tech support staff was for example, very trained and understood the terms SATA, RAID, SCSI very well. You might argue that they need to; otherwise why they were at that job at the first place. Unfortunately though, I don't see the same logic being applied to other tech call centers. All you need to have is, if you want a call center job is perhaps a good voice and the ability to dodge your callers.

  36. really? no kidding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    - i never would have guessed!

  37. The survey makers....... by yahurd · · Score: 0

    Need to quit calling Microsoft the computer industry!!!!

  38. Best Buy and Let's Pass the Buck! by happy_place · · Score: 1

    I got a laptop for my birthday from Best Buy. I got the extended service agreement, cuz well... it's a laptop... and what laptop lasts for five+ years--and like an idiot, I assumed I'd get service if I had a problem. I got it home, plugged it in and noticed pretty quickly that while it ran fine, the battery wasn't charging. Soon I had a low battery warning, and yet no workie... I did a little magic work and diagnosed the problem as a bad powercord and plug adapter (if the little LED that was not lit up was no clue, the multimeter helped).

    The Best Buy "geek squad" people wanted me to send my whole laptop in for the cord, even after showing them that the problem was the cord--and they refused to give me an adapter from an actual model that I bought and they sold... To their credit one of their teenage employees tried to give me a smaller power adapter from a different model computer. I told him no thanks and got a phone number to call... figuring I could get the problem solved before the quality tech place had it shipped to whereever then shipped back to the store and then sat in their back room for a few weeks before they remembered to actually CALL me that the thing was back... (another experience...)

    I tried calling in, and they told me I needed to take it in. I took it in they told me I needed to call the manufacturer, because it had failed prior to the manufacturer's warranty expiring and that their extended service agreement was for when that expired. I called HP, they said if I had the service agreement I needed to call Best Buy. This went on for a couple weeks. Then I had a day off from work (and it was my birthday to boot) and I decided I would get to the bottom of this... I called Best Buy and got passed from helpline to helpline to helpline.

    The point was... I knew the exact part that needed fixing, and by gosh! I was getting my power cord adapter without paying for another one (I could've done that, of course...) I was told frequently that people try to get extra power cords all the time and that they have to be careful not to just give away expensive parts to people who can't prove their parts aren't broken. I told them I'd be willing to GIVE them my broken adapter if they gave me one that worked.

    After spending an entire day on the phone it got to be hillarious. I absolutely refused to give up. It had become a game at this point. I went up the chain of command at both HP and Best Buy... To make a long story less long... I finally got to one helpful employee at HP. He was in Boise Idaho. He said he could get me the part. He said he'd send me a mailer in which I'd send the broken part too. Then when it came time to get my information, he said, "Oh. Crap. I guess I can't help you. Our computers are down."

    I said something to the effect, "Wow. I've got a lot of confidence in this product I just bought."

    The next day he sent me an adapter express mail...

    I think the guy in Idaho was the only real human I talked with...

    --Ray

    --
    http://www.beanleafpress.com
    1. Re:Best Buy and Let's Pass the Buck! by rafaMEX · · Score: 1

      well I used to work at hp total care for a month (i got another job), at hp total care all you have to do is call and say you have a power issue, then you have to follow the troubleshoot steps to prove the cord is damaged, once done that they will ship it to you, UNLESS is out of warranty, if is 1 year old, the hp extended plans doesnt cover the battery(im sure of this one) nor the powercord(iirc). you have to buy new ones no matter what. now if you bought the bestbuy warranty (i dunno what THAT covers) i would simply go to the store and ask a replacement. I remmeber on nesting calls (hearing experienced agents) a one or two costumers that insist on getting new cords even tho the troubleshoot was proving more bigger serious issues , and they JUST wanted a new cord no matter what.

    2. Re:Best Buy and Let's Pass the Buck! by happy_place · · Score: 1

      I think that's what made my experience so difficult. Because I had purchased the product at Best Buy. At one point, I had both Best buy management and HP on the line. In the end, HP ended up sending me another one, and I sent the defective one back to them... The fact that it took me about a month to resolve the issue was what I found unnacceptable. --Ray

      --
      http://www.beanleafpress.com
    3. Re:Best Buy and Let's Pass the Buck! by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I had worked at Best Buy at the Geek Squad, and let me tell you, the service will vary a lot from store to store. Maybe trying a different store would have helped.

      Any machine within the 14 day return policy can be returned. If someone brought in a laptop the day after they bought it, with that problem, we'd try plugging it in and if we couldn't boot it from AC power, the customer would get a new laptop (we had to remove anything from the box the customer didn't bring in with the broken one).

      If we didn't have the exact model, the customer could exchange or get a refund and come back when it was back in stock. If it was going out of stock and the customer REALLY WANTED that laptop, we could send it out for service, but in your case, we'd just order the part over the parts hotline and the customer was supposed to recieve it in 5 business days by mail/UPS.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  39. number #3 is flipping burgers by grapeape · · Score: 1

    Sorry but you obviously havent been anywhere near a real call center. Number 3 would be constantly on the managers shit list and probably canned after a couple weeks for lack of productivity (number of calls matter much more than number of happy customers). Number 1 will keep a job as long as he doesnt deviate from he script. Number 2 will become management.

  40. How about books? by antdude · · Score: 1

    How about books? [grin] :)

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  41. Modem parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . for the last sentence alone.

  42. how stupid is this? by AlgorithMan · · Score: 1

    Other calls centers included in the survey included banking, cell phone service, cable and satellite television, and insurance
    oh yeah, thats a good survey, because having trouble with a cable coming to your house is so comparable (because equally easy to figure out and solve) to several million if not billion lines of sourcecode, transistors, ultra small cables, chips etc. and not forget all the registry values that might be screwed up... (yes, its appropriate to say they have a registry... we are talking about windows... F/LOSS users solve their problems on their own...)
    --
    The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
  43. Re: Tech to tech is a different talk by blue_moon_ro · · Score: 1

    Yes, these companies have skilled employees, but that is because those are *industrial* printers and terminals for AS/400 systems which are not exactly end-user stuff and cost pretty much. This means: 1. you pay a higher price which incorporates better support 2. usually the client is also a tech, not a clueless Joe SixPack and is a lot easier to do a tech to tech talk.

  44. haha tech support horror stories by symbolset · · Score: 1

    You know, I have a few experiences along this line, so I feel the pain of helpdesk helpers who've had to deal with customers who never even had a ticket on the clue train. Instead of sharing that with you, though, let me share this....

    When one of my grateful customers expresses how they wish they knew stuff about computers too, my standard response is "oh, but I wish I could [do whatever the customer does] like you do."

    Odd thing... when I say it it's usually true. I wish I had the time to learn more in depth about more things, but nobody can be skilled in everything.

    These last few years I don't get a chance to help end users as often as I once did, but I still do it now and then and I always will. It's quite educational. I think if we made more engineers do this, computers would be easier to use. Techs who think they're the high priests of the occult binary science deserve to be screwed over on points and fees by their mortgage broker, on dealer options by their car dealer, and in every other field they're not skilled.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  45. customers suck too by White+Shade · · Score: 1

    Well, I must say, in defense of some of those call centers (not ALL of them are bad), seriously, what the fuck are they supposed to do when the customers don't even understand what "click" or "menu" means. Or when they just don't "get" the most fundamental concepts of working with a computer... It's pretty sad when you realize that the customer doesn't even know what an icon is, or what a window is, or that they can't even distinguish between the left and right mouse buttons.

    All that happens is that the call center tech has no hope of solving the problem due to the lack of even the slightest understanding on behalf of the customer, and the customer sits there pissed off because the 'guy on the phone is stupid', and then they answer a survey saying that they hate pc call centers.

    Obviously this isn't what happens every time, and yeah obviously a lot of call centers DO suck, but seriously, you gotta factor the fact that a lot of computer users are completely fucking retarded, and look at their dissatisfaction from that respect too...

    (rant over. sorry!)

    --
    ìì!
    1. Re:customers suck too by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      No you must solve every call and do it under 7 minutes.

      When I had such a call I cringe because its a a 45 minute call and my former boss will get all mad at bringing my team and his stats down to his boss.

      What is evaluated is how quick I get them off the phone. If the user is cluless then get him TO HANG UP! Anyway how that is not rude.

      But hey, a call center is a cost center and must be eliminated as any accountant will tell you. After all call centers do not bring the company many. Sales people do. So lets bitch at the call center people and make their calls under 7 minutes or else and fire the sales people when customers leave. The accountants said so.

      Stupid phb's .... sigh. Then they wonder where all there customers are going?

      As you can tell I did not last long and quit with a third of my group within the first 90 days since what they ask is so hard to do under strict circumstances.

    2. Re:customers suck too by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I meant call centers do not bring the company money and need to be eliminated. I typed many...

      You all get the picture.

  46. It's not the CC-Agent's fault by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    There are 2 things working against him and against neither he can win.

    The first is the scripted dialog he has to go through. Usually, when you're working in support (1st and often 2nd level too), you have a FOTM-script to work through. You walk your caller through the steps and if the issue isn't resolved, pump him up into the next level. That's it. No leeway, no chance to deviate. Or rather, you better don't if you "enjoy" your minimum wage job.

    This, in turn, does dissatisfy your customer, especially if the service is broken by design already and he KNOWS that effing script himself already because he's calling every day. When someone calls with the standard (!) sentence "Hello, my account number is ######, I've turned it off and on, rebooted the machine, reinstalled the drivers, replaced the cables, (insert other script parts here) and it still blinks that way, please forward my call to level 2", you know it's one of those guys.

    And then there are the customers who don't even manage to understand the most basic things about their machines. They are usually your bane in support. They cost you time (thus fu.k up your average call ratio, which costs you money or your job if you have too many of those people) and more nerves than your minimum wage job is worth. And of COURSE they will be dissatisfied since they will feel like idiots. Rightfully so, granted, but still, it's gonna be the supporter who is to blame.

    Add that you're first of all on hold for at least 5 minutes and sometimes up to an hour, and you see where the dissatisfaction comes from.

    Customer satisfaction simply isn't something you can tack on your ads. You advertise with your cheap prices, your fast product, your wonderful bundles, but tell me a single one IT-business that advertises with customer satisfaction. Not only because there is none, but also because the customer himself does not care about it when he chooses his service. He will be dissatisfied, yes, but he won't switch services over it. And that's all that matters.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  47. Unsurprising by funkatron · · Score: 1

    I actually had this conversation once.

    Dell (never got why people always disguise company names when posting on the internet) callcenter worker: Hello ... How can I help?
    Me: I've got a monitor here where the bottom half of the screen has failed. It just shows grey. I've tried a different cable, different resolution and connecting it to a different computer.
    Dell callcenter worker: You have to press the button on the monitor to turn it on.

    --
    "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    1. Re:Unsurprising by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      As a former call center worker I can tell you he was doing his job.

      I tried to help customers directly but I ended up taking longer and getting myself into trouble as most users are clueless and it is switching it on %75 of the time. Customers are very poor communicators and can mislead you very easily to a wrong path unless you have a list in front of you to follow in order.

      Also, not to mention at such places like AOL its considering subordination not to read off a checklist like "is it on" and you could get in trouble. Sigh

  48. Use the OP as an example by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    ...of why phone TS is hard. Customers dial in with a problem, and an attitude. They don't always *listen* to what you say - and it's very hard to help someone who won't listen...

    1. Re:Use the OP as an example by jotok · · Score: 1

      Mod. Parent. Up.

      At this point the AC has been told several times how drop to a console. He is seeking technical support, yet believes that he already knows more than the herd of "morons" who are telling him what to do.

      Everyone is being civil even though he's being a dick. I probably would have told him to piss off at this point.

      Obligatory car analogy:

      Guy: Hey, my car won't start.

      Ford: Is there gas in it?

      Guy: No, the tank is empty.

      Ford: Well, you need to put gas in it.

      Guy: WTF! I already told you it won't start. How am I going to get to a gas station to fill it up?

      Ford: Well, take a gas can, bring back a gallon, drive back and fill it up.

      Guy: Your cars are so stupid, with my Chevy I can just drive to the station without having to go through all these bullshit intermediate steps. And like I ALREADY TOLD YOU, the car won't start, so how am I going to drive to get a gas can? ...et cetera ad nauseum...

    2. Re:Use the OP as an example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, if this is an example of the type of tech support people can expect, then PC tech support deserves the lowest satisfaction score.

      "When I start Ubuntu, the monitor goes black and displays a message that says 'sync out of range'."

      "OK, I want you to go to the terminal..."

      "I can't. There's nothing on the screen. That would require the sync to be IN RANGE, which it clearly isn't."

      "OK, so press Ctrl-Alt-Triple-Bang-Squat-Blooie..."

      "You still don't get it. There's no display. Opening random UI elements doesn't help if I CAN'T SEE THEM!"

      "OK, so open /etc/X/12/conf/magic, and..."

      "Right, I'll just use my amazing telepathic powers and edit some random config file ON A CD-R with my mind. It's not like CD-Rs are READ ONLY OR SOMETHING, let alone the BLANK DISPLAY."

      Given the quality of help from Ubuntu users and this thread, it really isn't surprising that PC support has the lowest satisfaction scores. I'm not sure how demanding USEFUL, WORKABLE solutions that don't involve typing in the dark and don't involve editing files on CDs is "attitude", but whatever. It doesn't matter any more, I just used Windows XP, which has the benefit of ACTUALLY WORKING.

    3. Re:Use the OP as an example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HOW THE FUCK DOES DROPPING TO THE CONSOLE HELP A GOD-DAMNED THING?!

      You're missing the entire fucking point. NOTHING IS DISPLAYED! NOTHING! All I get is the monitor complaining that Ubuntu is using an invalid sync. "Dropping to a console" isn't going to magically make Ubuntu STOP using an invalid sync.

      All I need to know is what parameter to set on the boot menu to override Ubuntu's invalid video mode guessing. I know there's a "vga" parameter I can set, I just don't know how to use it and NO ONE WILL EXPLAIN IT!

    4. Re:Use the OP as an example by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Right: in the interests of demonstrating good tech support, and not descending to your level:
      1) Your monitor is showing that message because Ubuntu has picked a default resolution or sync rate that your monitor doesn't support - e.g. if it's an LCD panel and it's defaulting to 70Hz refresh when your screen doesn't support it or similar.
      2) You can easily press the appropriate keystrokes with no video display. When you do this (please just go with us, m'kay?) you will find that Ubuntu will drop out of GUI mode, and drop into a plain terminal session. This session WILL RUN AT A DIFFERENT, LOWER REFRESH RATE/RESOLUTION etc and so WILL DISPLAY on your monitor. It takes 5 seconds to try it. It takes much longer than that to bitch about how it won't work on slashdot.

    5. Re:Use the OP as an example by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      You're right, if this is an example of the type of tech support people can expect, then PC tech support deserves the lowest satisfaction score.

      "When I start Ubuntu, the monitor goes black and displays a message that says 'sync out of range'."

      "OK, I want you to go to the terminal..."

      "I can't. There's nothing on the screen. That would require the sync to be IN RANGE, which it clearly isn't."
      Yes you can


      "OK, so press Ctrl-Alt-Triple-Bang-Squat-Blooie..."

      "You still don't get it. There's no display. Opening random UI elements doesn't help if I CAN'T SEE THEM!"
      You aren't being asked to open UI elements. You're being asked to press a specific key combination which will remove the GUI


      "OK, so open /etc/X/12/conf/magic, and..."

      "Right, I'll just use my amazing telepathic powers and edit some random config file ON A CD-R with my mind. It's not like CD-Rs are READ ONLY OR SOMETHING, let alone the BLANK DISPLAY."

      Given the quality of help from Ubuntu users and this thread, it really isn't surprising that PC support has the lowest satisfaction scores. I'm not sure how demanding USEFUL, WORKABLE solutions that don't involve typing in the dark and don't involve editing files on CDs is "attitude", but whatever. It doesn't matter any more, I just used Windows XP, which has the benefit of ACTUALLY WORKING.

      How would you define "useful" and "workable"? A simple 5 second keypress?
      Oh, and XP doesn't always default to a compatible sync rate either - which is why you may need a simple 5 second keypress to go into safe mode which will allow you to change it.

  49. you get the support you're meant to by RMH101 · · Score: 1
    Tech support is usually outsourced. The exact service you, as a customer of a manufacturer, is going to get is exactly what is in the contract between the outsourcing partner and the manufacturer - it'll be defined down to the tiniest level such as average speed of answer, % of fix on first call, etc. Best case scenario is you get the level of service in the contract - you never get better as OSP's are in business to make money just like the manufacturers are.
    If you're getting crappy service it's because the manufacturer/retailer has decided that you only deserve/have paid for crappy services.

    Great tech support is out there, but it's not cheap.

  50. Xbox support is the bowels of hell by gelfling · · Score: 1

    First off they have this robotic system called 'Max' who's a ripoff from central casting for a cool dude selling breakfast cereal. Next, you HAVE TO go through their automated fix steps NO MATTER WHAT. Step by step, even if you're calling back to check on the status of a prior incident. You HAVE TO start from zero every damn time. When you finally get to the point where you can speak to a person you get 'Sandra' or Michael aka Mishwaneth or Rajiv.

    Did I mention that all the automated steps are voice response which has maybe a 50% hit rate? Yeah - talk to your phone like a retarded child, endlessly repeating yourself. Lots of joy.

    Now here's the fun part. They really don't speak the King's English all that well. Ok maybe it's the King's English if your King is George III. In seven, SEVEN attempts at STEP 1 to repeat the spel-ling-of-my-name...... 'Sandra' could not get it right. Could not get the spelling of my SIX LETTER last name right as I spelled it out to her.

    Started screaming and cursing and just hung up.

    Back to the beginning start over.......until I reached 'Sam'. Well 'Sam' at least spoke English. We're on minute 20 of this project so far.

    My question was pretty simple. I had called a week and a half prior to start the return process on a 'red ring of lights' hardware failure. Their process is to charge you USD$140, send you a prepaid mailing carton. You put the broken console in the box and they send you a new one. So I was calling to divine where on Ganesh's Grey Earth this carton was. 8 calendar days seems enough for UPS to send an empty box. As it turns out the box came that day.

    Let me add too that they send you the box, fully assembled that you will send back to them. Dick move, Xbox, dick move. The box has to be left on the porch, it gets wet it gets knocked around. Yeah I understand it had foam braces inside the box but you should send me a collapsed box compact enough for the Postal Service to put in the mailbox.

    So word to the wise. Xbox support, while it's kewl and XXXXXXXTREEEEEME and radical is the worst of any I have ever encountered. Worse than Sprint PCS and that is saying alot. I would rate Sprint PCS slightly above Gitmo in the customer service department. And Xbox is that bad, or worse.

  51. The script will eat your soul! by SupaYoda · · Score: 1

    I've been a #3. It doesn't work that way. Management hates you because your call times stink, and you're either out of a job, or you join management, where you're encouraged to keep a team of #1's. Now, having been a #3, you want a team of #3's. So now you're a bad manager according to company standards. Meanwhile, your benefits are getting slashed, and you haven't received a pay raise in three years. #3 will be gone as fast as possible, either having moved on to something better with better pay and better benefits. Else, he will move on to another industry. And likely, by the time he does, he will be jaded and irritable as a result of his time in tech support. As for the script... It really doesn't matter whether or not you know what you are doing. There's a QA department listening to your call, and you'd darn well better stick to the script. Otherwise, you are providing "bad customer service" and can and will be disciplined for it. And if you're looking for another job, you want a good recommendation from your previous employer. You'd also better not show that you know more than #1 or #2, because if you go outside your support boundaries, you'll get dinged. Seriously speaking, I did ISP tech support. I'll never forget the guy who called asking me how to charge his laptop battery. I almost got fired for telling him to plug in the power cord instead of sending him to Dell.

  52. And working in a PC call center is .. by HW_Hack · · Score: 1

    rated as being in the 3rd ring of hell

    --
    Its not the years, its the mileage .....
  53. When I shocked a tech support rep by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 1

    True. I've had both exceptional customer service as well as "you don't have a clue, Mr. Customer" customer "service", if it can qualify as "service". In truth, though, I can understand things from the call center side as well.

    I remember one time when I bought one of those new 4x AGP video cards. (Yes, it was that long ago.) I was having a lot of problems with it, so I tried the various speeds (1X, 2X, 4X), tried different driver versions, and so forth. I finally gave up and did the last resort - called tech support.

    I explained the problem but I didn't go into what I did up to that point. The tech support rep asked if I had the card in my hands, which I did. "Okay. If you look on the card, there are a set of pins with a black square connecting them." I replied very simply, "Yes, the jumper." There was silence for about three seconds until I heard, "You know what a jumper is???!!" I chuckled and said, "Yes, I've been building my own PCs for a few years now."

    His response says it all: "Oh, thank God! Someone who knows what he's doing!" The call was as smooth as glass after that and I ended up doing an RMA without all of the checklist bullsh*t.

    --
    The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
  54. Thank the gods for Plumchoice by mofmaximus · · Score: 1

    Nothing like being able to call an english speaking person who actually feels challenged by the opportunity fix your issue as quickly as possible and not haveing to worry wether I "know" what the hell their doing. I pay them, they fix it. Simple as that. 95% satisfaction rating, the only thing that could make it better is if it were free, but these guys deserve to get paid. If only there were a way for computer manufacturers to get these kind of results, but alas, when it is not your specialty and basicaly free, it is never the best. Congrats Plumchoice on an awesome service. ;)