Details on Nintendo's Original Downloadable Content

HaymarketRiot writes "N'Gai Croal from Newsweek has given us a broad outline of Nintendo's plans for downloadable original content. To be called 'WiiWare', the company will be selling these all-new games via the Wii's Virtual Store for Wii points. Not only are they looking to big-name developers for these titles, but small garage-style shops as well. 'Shorter, original, more creative games from small teams with big ideas; these are the buzzwords that you'll be hearing from Nintendo when its Wednesday announcement goes wide. Fils-Aime told us that while Nintendo, as the retailer, would itself determine the appropriate pricing for each game on a per-title bases, the games themselves would not be vetted by Nintendo. Instead, Nintendo would only check the games for bugs and compatibility, with developers and publishers responsible for securing [a rating lower than AO with the ESRB].' For more, N'Gai has an interview with Reggie Fils-Aime on the subject. Unfortunately, we won't be seeing a finished product until 2008."

Comments

Cool

[GWLlosa]

This idea is excellent. I love using the Wii Virtual Console for the sole benefit of not having to change discs in order to play a game. Adding more games to this category can only be good, and the fact that Nintendo is taking a largely 'hands-off' approach to quality control should provide for a comparatively wide selection.

Re:Cool

[EveryNickIsTaken]

...the fact that Nintendo is taking a largely 'hands-off' approach to quality control should provide for a comparatively wide selection. This will also likely result in a number of buggy & crappy games being released.

Re:Cool

[Marwood]

So, don't buy the crappy and buggy ones then.

Problem solved.

Re:Cool

[246o1]

And don't buy cars that are going to explode either!

People like quality control. Hopefully Nintendo will maintain some sort of minimum standards, was, I think, the point being made. I imagine they will, though.

Re:Cool

[fbjon]

With regards to bugs, you forgot to RTFS.

Nintendo would only check the games for bugs and compatibility

Re:Cool

[aichpvee]

How about they start doing that with the disc-based games first. And this basically confirms a hard drive addon (hopefully they won't make you use theirs) because that 512MB isn't going to last.

Re:Cool

[dolson]

CVG: Is Nintendo considering releasing a hard drive to bolster the Wii's memory for all this new content?
Nintendo: No

Read the rest here.

I think it makes more sense for them to allow loading games from the SD card, but they shot that down too. I'd rather not have a bulky drive hanging off the back of my Wii. Kinda ruins the small form factor idea. And the fact that there is a nearly useless SD card slot in the Wii, that just annoys me. There's no reason it couldn't load a tiny ROM from the SD card, even copying it to RAM first, if it needed to... But if the GBA can play ROMs off of SD cards (which it can, if you buy the appropriate adapter), then so too can the Wii.

Re:Cool

[penp]

But if the GBA can play ROMs off of SD cards (which it can, if you buy the appropriate adapter), then so too can the Wii. A third-party adapter that can be used for piracy? Don't get me wrong, playing roms from an SD card is cool and all, but it's hardly something we should expect Nintendo to push themselves. Let's not forget the fact that once you've purchased something from the VC, you OWN it. Even if you delete it from your system, you can download it again. Not to mention the fact that I believe you can back up some of your channels to an SD card, allowing you to free up space if you need to.

Re:Cool

[aichpvee]

Yeah, I guess they could just go with using the SD card slot... but seems kind of pricey per megabyte. But they managed to put out some games that people like on XBLA with a 50MB limit so maybe it'll work. Wouldn't really want a hdd hanging off the back of the system anyway.

Re:Cool

[LKM]

...the fact that Nintendo is taking a largely 'hands-off' approach to quality control should provide for a comparatively wide selection. This will also likely result in a number of buggy & crappy games being released.

Actually, it seems Nintendo still does QC for these games.

Re:Cool

[dolson]

I think you totally misunderstood my point. People have argued against using the SD card slot because it's supposedly not fast enough to load ROMs from, but in reality it is. I don't own an SD card cart for GBA, but I have seen them. I'm not talking about pirating Wii Virtual Console games, I'm talking about a practical, inexpensive way to expand system memory using an expansion slot that already exists in the Wii hardware. We can copy ROMs to the SD card, so why not just allow the Wii menu to see them stored there, and so therefore we could load and run them directly from the card??? I didn't mention anything about pirating Wii games...

Indies?

[tomblag]

So, build your game in flash if your gonna skirt the AO line?

Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[ivan256]

A month or so before the March Game Developers Conference, Nintendo's PR agency approached us about a hush-hush new content initiative that the company had been cooking up [...] What's more interesting is that Nintendo isn't only seeking WiiWare from established publishers and developers like Ubisoft and Sega. At a Nintendo developer's conference earlier this week, the company informed attendees that it was seeking from indie developers as well. Shorter, original, more creative games from small teams with big ideas;

So, the same thing that Microsoft and Sony are already doing? Why's it so hush-hush then? Wouldn't they want to tell people ASAP that they're not missing the boat?

Article summary: Wii games for download next year, actual article content with interview next week. The rest is fluff.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

I think the article should read something like, "Nintendo has now re-implemented about 75% of Xbox Live's features, before the Xbox 360 was released." Put it in perspective, you know.

I'm kidding, but it is kind of funny, especially considering how many people (Slashdotters in particular) are so keen on talking about how non-innovative Microsoft is, and how the Xbox and Xbox 360 didn't introduce anything new or worthwhile to the table.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[hardburn]

What does XBox Live do that wasn't already in Steam. Sure, it might be the first sensible attempt to do this on a console, but that alone doesn't make you innovative.

In fact, isn't even the first attempt to bring downloadable content to a console. Nintendo did it in Japan with the Super Famicon (SNES).

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[ElleyKitten]

The XBox's strength is in implementation, not innovation. Online gaming was old-hat by the time the original XBox came out, and it wasn't even really new for consoles. What Microsoft did was make a good online gaming system for consoles. By the same token, the 360 doesn't have anything completely new and different, in the same way the wiimote is, but it implemented a lot of old ideas in good ways. When it works.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[cowscows]

I've always thought that the Xbox has pretty much gotten a fair deal on slashdot. Of course there's been the fanboys from either side who refuse to give an inch regardless of the realities, and still a general dislike/distrust of Microsoft. But overall, it seems that the general mindset (generalizing is bad, I know, but sometimes interesting) is that Xbox Live has been a monumental step in online console gaming, and MS did a pretty darn good job with it. MS also received a good bit of praise for their decision to include a HD standard with the Xbox, and a good amount of criticism for making it optional for the 360. The 360 appears to have less innovative stuff in it, but still has a fairly positive vibe to it around here as far as I can tell.

All that being said, MS tends to miss the mark with new products far more often than they really get it right, so skepticism isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it doesn't seem that the majority of the /. crowd has a problem acknowledging when they do something well. At worst, a lot of us wonder why they can't be more consistent at it with all the resources they have.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

Xbox Live came out before Steam, for one. (Xbox Live: November 2002, Steam came with Half-Life 2, released November 2004.) That aside, I'm not familiar with the features of Steam, so I can't answer that well, but I would guess:

1) Universal voice chat, including the ability to send voice messages to friends who are offline, to attach voice messages to game invites, etc. If you like, you can use Xbox Live as an IP phone.
2) Player feedback system which lets you mark a player as a griefer in only a few button presses, and works across all Xbox Live games.

I was kind of under the impression that Steam was only a download service and didn't provide the community features that Xbox Live did. It certainly didn't at launch, when I played Half-Life 2 with it, but maybe it does now.

To be fair to Nintendo, though, this announcement seems closer to Microsoft's XNA than the first-gen Xbox Live Arcade games. What I worry about is dev kits... Microsoft lets you use a regular PC as a dev kit for indie Xbox games. If Nintendo requires you to buy thousands of dollars of hardware to be considered, I'm not sure how successful they'll be at getting support from indie developers. Still, more power to them.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Cowclops]

Steam existed long before HL2 came out. But I don't think it was before Nov 2002 (more like early 2003). Your point still stands, its just that Steam wasn't initially released with HL2.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Universal voice chat, including the ability to send voice messages to friends who are offline, to attach voice messages to game invites, etc. If you like, you can use Xbox Live as an IP phone. Has anyone mentioned lately that voice chat is one of the most annoying features in video gaming history? I turn it off in games that support it because it is easier then the infinite number of mutes I would have to perform to silence every nasally geek or pre-pubescent boy.

2) Player feedback system which lets you mark a player as a griefer in only a few button presses, and works across all Xbox Live games. Does this not scream of abuse?

Seriously, MS has been very restrictive about online materials. They limit what a developer can do online and have basically forbidden user creatable content for download online. I mean how many PC games are made better by user/community mods that never get to see the light of day on a console because of MS. Oh yeah, and you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

I guess so. The problem is that the Nintendo supporters on this site are so loud and overwhelming that it doesn't seem like the other consoles get their fair due. For instance, while you might see one or two fair and accurate Xbox posts modded up in a discussion, you'll see ten or twenty Nintendo posts modded up in the same discussion, even if the story has little to do with Nintendo.

The general rule with Microsoft is: Hardware good, software (mostly) bad.

Microsoft keyboards and mouses are very nice. Microsoft networking equipment (when they still made it) is great-- I have a MN-500 wifi router I hope never dies, because you can't replace them. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are both very good machines.

Some of their software is pretty good, like MS SQL Server or IIS, but the majority is pretty flakey IMO.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

The $50 a year fee is to keep the griefers away from the system. Making a new account every time one gets banned becomes expensive very quick for griefers. Meanwhile, $50 a year is hardly anything for anybody who can afford an Xbox and regular game purchases. They're not charging to cover the service, they're charging to keep the quality of the service up.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[anss123]

Meh, I bought 3 MS mice in a row, all different make and model, and they all suffered from the same flaw: A god-awful scroll wheel. Strangely, the crappiness of the wheel was proportional to the cost of the mouse. Similarly my xbox 360 controller would have been perfect if not for the sloppy crosshair. Both Xboxes suffer from high failure rates, for one reason or another. As for your MS net gear, it's probably just MS branded.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"I've always thought that the Xbox has pretty much gotten a fair deal on slashdot. "

Well.. not 'always'. Just before launch, the 360 was a big joke on Slashdot. When the name was announced, there were jokes about Microsoft spinning in circles. When the machine was launched and demand exceeded supply, lots of complaints were made that Microsoft was doing that on purpose. ("We'll make more money by having less units available for sale!") There were complaints about the different SKUs and the lack of a harddrive in one model somehow being a bad thing. It really wasn't until Sony came along and made total asses of themselves that Slashdot's opinion of the 360 cooled.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with your statement. I've heard more bashing of the Wii than of the 360 in the last 9 months or so. In some ways, it's almost like the 360's been forgotten.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[cowscows]

To be fair, just in terms of comparisons to what came before it, the Xbox360 was a good bit less interesting than I had hoped. It's really just a souped up Xbox (minus the HD), but at least MS never really tried to hype it as much else. Contrast to Nintendo who made a system that really is different, or Sony, who still sometimes likes to pretend that the PS3 is some sort of breakthrough revolution that changes everything.

Really, I think what MS did with the 360 is what Sony should've done with the PS3. Incremental improvements to an already successful product. As much as we all love to see innovation, there's something to be said about refining an already good product. It's easier to not screw up, the consumer has a better idea of what they're getting, and your console doesn't cost hundreds of dollars more than the competition. You won't get brownie points from the gaming media for innovation, but that's not so bad when there's already a decent sized market for your product.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[cowscows]

I'll agree with what you said regarding Nintendo. But to be fair, Nintendo has made something that's really really different, while MS has just been refining a decent product. (Nothing wrong with that, it's just more interesting for most people to talk about something new). Nintendo's also had a couple of decades longer to build up their fanboy base, plus they've been the underdogs for a while, and everyone loves a story about the little guy sticking it to the big boys.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[SetupWeasel]

Hardware good? Are you fucking kidding me?

Even if you forget the fact that the 360 has abhorrent reliability, this is a company that can't make a decent fucking mouse.

In fact, I'd venture to say that software is the only reason anyone would ever buy a 360.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Kelbear]

It's probably because it's different people working on certain things, even if they're all under the same company logo. For instance, how many people here haven't encountered incredible incompetence from someone else in their company? Who doesn't know anyone in their company who's good at their job(including themselves)?

MS has a large number of projects under its umbrella and the people who do the actual work on these will have different performance levels. Of course general company policies can hold back some quality, but there are limits.

I was also very pleased with my MS mouse and keyboard back before that division was sidelined. They're back now with that Habu mouse, but I haven't heard much about it. The supporting software for these was also the best I've seen, and is still considerably better than Logitech's(Logitech took 3 years to catch up on program-specific buttons, MS's first optical mouse debuted with it, and with far less bloat).

I like my Xbox360 overall, I'm not exactly crazy about 2 of them bricking on me, but I can put up with it. Apparently at somepoint people working on the Xbox360's hardware and fab processes screwed up.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

I've never seen an unbiased comparison of Xbox 360 reliability compared to other consoles. There's sure a lot of noise on the Internet about how often they fail, but I've never seen any actual data to form an opinion with.

And now the pointless anecdote which also isn't actual data:

My launch 360 hasn't had a single problem since I bought it, and I exercise it at least 10 hours a week. My launch original Xbox also hasn't had a single problem, and I played it about the same amount over its entire lifetime. I still boot it up occasionally.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[SetupWeasel]

I usually don't put a lot of stock in anecdotal failures either, but when Crecente of Kotaku said he was on his sixth, I took notice. If Microsoft cannot get a unit that is not defective to an influential news outlet in 5 tries, something is seriously, seriously wrong.

That is what I look it, because the media is their meat and potatoes. They should be doing whatever they can to get working units to those who comment on and review games for their systems.

Major gaming sites have been reporting that their own 360s have been breaking. This should not happen, and Microsoft is either extremely lucky that these sites do not take their hardware experience into account or they are paying the sites to ignore it.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[DrEldarion]

Can't make a decent mouse? The original intellimouse explorer is PERFECT, and insanely reliable. I've had one for years and years that's gone through hell (including multiple full glasses of water spilled directly on it) and it still works perfectly.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Steam was around long before JL2, several years before I recall making jokes at how Steam.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[talksinmaths]

Just before launch, the 360 was a big joke on Slashdot. When the name was announced, there were jokes about Microsoft spinning in circles.

At least we can all proudly say that none of us engaged in such childishness when Nintendo announced the name Wii. :)

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[ivan256]

That is clearly bullshit. I'm sure that Microsoft hasn't claimed that, so you're probably drinking some fanboy blogger's cool-aid.

If the $50 fee was to keep griefers away from the system, then it would be a one time fee. But it's not. It's an annual fee. An annual fee that is clearly intended to "guarantee" the $150+ of attached revenue they need to generate to make a profit on the system.

They're not charging to keep the quality of the service up. They're charging to make money.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't disagree, I just want to point out that the reason the PS3 became what it is is because of a big engineering mistake.

Cell.

You see, the plan when Sony started to work on that what that it would be powerful enough to serve as both CPU and GPU. This is not a inherently wrong design, it's actually a good idea, watch what Nvidia and ATI are doing now. But then:
- Cell was underpowered in that role, because off the shelf GPUs became so powerful so fast;
- Cell was late and had dreadful yields.

From that point on, Sony didn't have a choice:
- they had to add a GPU, adding to cost;
- they had to stick in blu-ray to have some kind of technological edge.

Allow me to dwelve on the second point. Cell *is* much more powerful than Xenon (you don't hear IBM talking about putting those in blades, do you?), but you have to program it right. This is difficult because it was originally a GPU, remember? So learning how to do that takes time. So they had to have some kind of edge that would push boxes through the door *now*, so that there be developers bothering to learn the trade and put out game that can sell boxes *later*. Blu-ray it was (which was undoubtedly helped by pressure from the rest of Sony electronics and Sony entertainment).

So now you have a box that costs a fortune with few games, none of which utilizes the capabilities of the console, and the bet is the PS3 and Bluray will help each other survive for a couple of years, which will be long enough for HDDVD to quit, hardware prices to come down and developers to put out *good* games. The they win.

That's the bet.

How realistic that is, I do not know...

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

I usually don't put a lot of stock in anecdotal failures either, but when Crecente of Kotaku said he was on his sixth, I took notice.

1) For any product that is capable of breaking down and sells in the millions, statistically you're going to have X number of people who have numerous failures. Without knowing if that X is one customer, or 5% of customers, you can't draw any rational conclusion. That's true no matter how famous the individual whose console failed is. (Personally, I've never heard of him.)

2) You're making an assumption that Microsoft knew these particular consoles were going to a journalist at a game site. How would they know that? If they did know that, and purposefully gave him a special Xbox to ensure reliability, wouldn't you get upset that MS was 'buttering-up' the press?

3) For all I know, this Kotaku guy batter-fries his Xbox every sunday. Or he only plays Rainbow 6: Vegas while it's submerged in a swimming pool. Major game sites probably work their Xbox 360s 24 hours a day, playing pre-release or beta software on them. They abuse them a lot more than the average customer, so you'd expect their return rate to be higher. NASCAR teams also have a change tires a hell of a lot more often than I do; that doesn't say anything about the quality of their tires.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[grumbel]

### They're not charging to cover the service, they're charging to keep the quality of the service up.

Thing is they are charging quite a bit, $50 might not sound much, but assuming the Xbox360 has a life of 5 years that makes your $400 XBox360 suddenly cost $650, makes the PS3 look not so expensive any more.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The XBox's strength is in implementation" ... "When it works."

"Insightful". Indeed.

--
AC

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[SetupWeasel]

1) Simple probability-if there is a simple 5% failure rate (too high in my book anyway) the probability that any one person will get a defective unit is 1/20 or one in twenty. However the probability that one person will get 5 defective units is (1/20)^5 or (1/3200000) one in three million, two hundred thousand. If the failure rate was so low, only 2 people in the world would share Crecente's fate. The story at 1up about the man with 11 failures would happen once for every 204,800,000,000,000 consoles sold.

To make the second example realistic (make the probability at least one in 10 million, the number of consoles sold) the failure rate would have to be at least 23.1% assuming every box he got had the same probability for failure.

2) They gave him BETA machines. They knew.

3) I'm not going to respond to that. It is ridiculous.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[LKM]

Game downloading existed as far back as the Megadrive/Genesis. I think even the NES had a download service in Japan. Either way, the difference between what Nintendo is doing and what Sony and Microsoft are doing is that Nintendo encourages indies, provides a cheap dev kit, and will do QC for them. Not sure what Microsoft is doing, exactly, but Sony doesn't seem to go as far.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[LKM]

The 50 bucks limits online to hardcore gamers. Simple as that. I don't often play online. I played a bit of Mario Kart and Tetris when they came out on the DS. I played a few rounds of Motorstorm. I mainly play it for the novelty and when I gete bored with the main game, but I don't play more than two or three online games a month. I want to be able to do that, but I also don't want to pay 50 bucks for three online matches. So the 360 is right out for me.

Now maybe you think this is great, since it means you don't have to play against noobs like me. I think it sucks, and it's one of the reasons I never considered buying a 360, but bought a PS3 and a Wii instead.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[LKM]

You know, at some point, claiming that there's no issue with the 360 becomes laughable. Even Microsoft itself said that people should not worry about the reliability, but be happy that Microsoft has such great service instead. That's pretty much an admission of guilt. They also won't come out and say what the failure rates are, but they keep getting bigger. They started out below 5%, then below 10%, and now it's "about industry standard" without even naming any numbers.

There are people who are on their twelfth 360. There are people who have several friends with 360s who all were replaced. Microsoft isn't giving out numbers, but claiming there's no issue is ridiculous.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[antime]

If Nintendo requires you to buy thousands of dollars of hardware to be considered, I'm not sure how successful they'll be at getting support from indie developers.

This is where the promised $2000 devkits are going. If you can't afford even that then I don't think Nintendo want you on board - at least previously you had to show that you were serious and financially sound before getting a development license.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[antime]

You see, the plan when Sony started to work on that what that it would be powerful enough to serve as both CPU and GPU.

To be precise, the original design had two Cell CPUs - one for game logic and one for rendering graphics. I think that one additional reason the idea was scrapped was that they realized developers wouldn't be too keen on writing software renderers.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

Game downloading existed as far back as the Megadrive/Genesis.

Ok, that covers Xbox Live Arcade, which is about a third of Xbox Live.

Either way, the difference between what Nintendo is doing and what Sony and Microsoft are doing is that Nintendo encourages indies, provides a cheap dev kit, and will do QC for them. Not sure what Microsoft is doing, exactly, but Sony doesn't seem to go as far.

Microsoft:
1) Encourages indies. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937785.aspx
2) Provides a *free* dev kit. (Requires only a standard Windows PC, which virtually everybody already has.) http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx (Note: compiling to Xbox 360 does cost, but it's token cost; I believe it's $100 a year. You can do all the programming you need on the Windows PC.)
3) And will do QA for them. (If your game is chosen to be published.)

Nintendo just announced that they'll start to offer the same thing Microsoft has had for almost a full year now. It's seriously not news.

I know you probably hate Microsoft with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, but seriously, do at least a teeny bit of research before writing a post like this so I don't have to waste my time correcting it, k?

(I won't comment on Sony because I'm not familiar with Sony's service offerings.)

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[LKM]

Game downloading existed as far back as the Megadrive/Genesis.
Ok, that covers Xbox Live Arcade, which is about a third of Xbox Live.

...as well as the subject of the /. article.

I know you probably hate Microsoft with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, but seriously, do at least a teeny bit of research before writing a post like this so I don't have to waste my time correcting it, k?

I said I was "not sure what Microsoft is doing, exactly." So thanks for clearing it up.

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they probably just send failed machines out again as warranty replacements, meaning that a probability of a repeat failure is much higher than the first failure. Hopefully they at least re-apply the thermal paste that is the typical problem, but who knows?

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[Blakey Rat]

I said I was "not sure what Microsoft is doing, exactly." So thanks for clearing it up.

You said that, then immediately assumed that Microsoft was doing nothing. Look at the previous sentence:

Either way, the difference between what Nintendo is doing and what Sony and Microsoft are doing is that Nintendo encourages indies, provides a cheap dev kit, and will do QC for them. Not sure what Microsoft is doing, exactly, but Sony doesn't seem to go as far.

That's like me saying, "unlike Dodge, Ford and Chevy don't do any kind of safety testing so their cars are death traps that kill infants. I don't really know what Ford or Chevy are doing safety-wise, actually." (Obligatory car analogy.) You seriously don't think that's intellectually dishonest?

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[geminidomino]

The general rule with Microsoft is: Hardware good... Is that so...

Re:Maybe the author has a minimum article length?

[LKM]

You're right. I wrote the sentence, and while writing it, it occured to me that I wasn't actually sure what Microsoft allows, so I added the sentence saying that I wasn't sure. Obviously I should have gone back and changed the sentence.

Great!

[Aladrin]

I'm very much looking forward to this. So far, the most fun I've had on the Wii is still the first game, Wii Sports. I was -so- hoping that Wii Play would be as good, but it's nothing like it.

Super Paper Mario is nice and fun, but took almost no advantage of the uniqueness of the system. Excite Truck was good, not great. Trauma Center was better than the DS version, but still not as much fun as Wii Sports.

I'm looking for more little games like the Wii Sports ones that are fun solo, and a ton of fun with friends, and I'm willing to pay for them. I think this plan will bring those titles.

If I had a little more motivation, I'd gladly spend the ~$2k for the Wii dev kit and write my own games. Unfortunately, I still haven't even managed to motivate myself to do it on the PC for free. Some day...

Re:Great!

[AKAImBatman]

Excite Truck was good, not great.

Sacrilege! If jumping a newly formed mountain at 200MPH then scraping a tree in midair thus resulting in a barrel roll which lands you upside down as you skip off the mountain peaks before diving headlong onto the track where you mysteriously manage to land upright AND get a speed boost for a Nice Landing doesn't bring a smile to your face, I don't know what will. That game is crazy. CRAZY, I tell you. My wife played it and managed to smash, bump, crush, ram, sink, skip, splash, slide, crash, flip, and careen her way through Fiji. Result? S-Class rating!

Excite Truck: The only racing game that rewards bad driving! :P

I'm looking for more little games like the Wii Sports ones that are fun solo, and a ton of fun with friends, and I'm willing to pay for them.

I have heard nothing but good things about Rayman and Elebits, save for that Rayman takes a little bit of time to warm up to. Both make excellent use of the Wii Remote and may be exactly what you're looking for.

Re:Great!

[Aladrin]

"I have heard nothing but good things about Rayman and Elebits"

Oh, let me be the first then!

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either.

Elebits: While it was interesting at first, it very quickly got tedious because of the interface.

I don't enjoy games that I fight the interface, rather than play the game. This is mostly because I hate the pointing system on the Wii. There is no way to calibrate it to my TV, and I've tried everything I could think of to place the censor so that it was calibrated 'good enough'. Pointing just plain sucks.

One that I did find amusing for a while was Wario. The little challenges were way too short (They're shorter than the interludes!) but they were amusing.

Re:Great!

[CastrTroy]

For a game that really takes advantage of the Wii controller, check out Super Monkey Ball. I played it on the GC and like it, but it's completely different and so much better on the Wii.

Re:Great!

[Baumi]

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either. Really? I didn't think that part was *that* hard - and I'm most certainly a casual gamer (I usually only play 2 or 3 times per month if that often.) There are a lot harder challenges coming up a few rounds later, and I could usually beat them after 4 or 5 tries.

I don't enjoy games that I fight the interface, rather than play the game. This is mostly because I hate the pointing system on the Wii. There is no way to calibrate it to my TV That could actually go a long way to explain your troubles - if your setup doesn't work, it's going to make *every* game that much more difficult.

Re:Great!

[zarkill]

I'm looking forward to Carnival Games, which looks like it will be of the "lots of fun mini-games" variety. It was due at the end of August last I heard.

Re:Great!

[porcupine8]

Your enjoyment of Rayman can also depend on your sense of humor. I really liked the rhythm-game part, but things like pulling worms out of decaying teeth and fart jokes didn't appeal to me - the associated games would have been more fun without the 13-year-old sensibilities.

But then, as most posters here are male, 13 is probably right up their alley. ;)

Re:Great!

[Zelos]

The pointing interface works great on the Wii IMHO - sniping Elebits from long distance was very easy. You just have to get used to the idea that it doesn't work like a light gun. It even works well in Heatseeker, although the game itself wasn't that good.

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either. The toilet event is ridiculously tricky...until you discover that you can also click the bunnies, not just the doors. Once I figured that out, it was a piece of cake.

Re:Great!

[kubalaa]

When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. The trick for me was realizing that the timing of the nunchuck shake is important and needs to occur just after you point at the door; if you are just constantly shaking the nunchuck while pointing at doors, that doesn't work.

Re:Great!

[FunkSoulBrother]

I used to suck at that toilet-door minigame too, until I had the revelation to return to the center after each hit, preparing you with minimum distance when you go for the next one.

Re:Great!

[Nevyn]

When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible

Really? I didn't think that part was *that* hard - and I'm most certainly a casual gamer (I usually only play 2 or 3 times per month if that often.)

Well I had a similar problem, although the other events were ok so I could finish the level. The problem for me was that the intuitive interface was for you to "push" where the door was. What you actually needed to do was "shake" where the door would be, if closed. After that revelation (which took _many_ tries, and random internet searches) it was about par.

Re:Great!

[earthbound kid]

I liked Elebits right up until the final boss, which was so irritating it retroactively made me dislike earlier parts of the game.

If you play Elebits, throughout the game you'll find various knobs that need to be turned like door handles and sinks. You'll also notice that the knob turning code is almost completely broken. It is impossible to turn a knob without causing your camera to spaz out and end up pointing at the ceiling. But it's mostly no big deal, because there are only ever one or two doors or sinks that need to be turned in a level and fixing your camera doesn't take that long.

So, what did they do for the final boss? They basically made a giant, cheap ass knob that needs to be turned a lot before it hits you with a cheap death.

What the hell? Were the developers paying any attention to their own game at all? Did they not notice that knob turning is the absolute worst part of the whole game and completely broken? Why would you make the worst part of your game into the final challenge? It would be like if in the final level of Mario 64 you have to keep your camera on Mario in a narrow space. It's re-freaking-tarded ass design.

Ughhhh.

My advice is you should buy Elebits but never, ever play the final boss. Doing so will just make you dislike what you liked in the game before and sour you on Konami.

Re:Great!

[hattig]

You might like that Mercury Revolution game on the Wii then. Very simple interface, simple game, that has very good reviews, and is also quite cheap.

As for RayMan, it is awesome. The toilet doors are a bit hard for a couple of goes, but after that it is fine. The later toilet doors + walking scuba rabbids is much harder, but still doable within 10 tries.

The biggest issue is the 50Hz/60Hz bug on the stereo rabbids level. PAL gamers need to switch the game to 60Hz to complete those levels.

The rest of the game has so many rewarding areas that you are missing out a lot by giving up so early.

Re:Great!

[Blakey Rat]

Just FYI, except for the "newly-formed" part, you can do all that on Crackdown on Xbox 360. It also has crazy-ass physics.

Re:Great!

[AndrewStephens]

Aaarrggh! Thats the secret! I always thought that level must be bugged.

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can get over the fact that you're kind of desecrating a classic movie, Godfather: Blackhand Edition is really great. The combat controls are fantastic and really show you how immersive the Wii controls can be with relatively simple gestures.

Re:Great!

[LKM]

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either.

Let me start out by agreeing that Rayman is flawed. The main issue is that I don't want to unlock games. This is a party game. I want to put it in and play insane games against other people. I don't want to play single-player to unlock stuff. Also, not enough minigames allow two or four players to play at the same time.

Having said that: The toilet game is not hard, but it's kind of hard to figure out the control. Give it another try.

Re:Great!

[Wdomburg]

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either.

Ermmm... both me and my wife got through everything in the first few rounds on our first tries.

Re:Great!

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

I honestly had no trouble with the final boss (or opening doors or turning other knobs), and I easily beat it on my first try. As long as you turn it/rotate your hand while keeping it pointing in the same direction that it originally was (at the knob or whatever), it works perfectly well. If you point at the ceiling or something while turning, I suppose that would make the camera point at the ceiling and wobble about, but if you just point forward and rotate the wiimote around the long axis, no problem, at least for me.

Now successfully beating some of the later challenge levels, on the other hand... That could just be that I'm not good enough at the game, though, because it's obviously possible if plenty of other people have done it. Heh.

Really?

[Applekid]

... but small garage-style shops as well.

Really? I'll believe it when I see small garage-style shop priced Wii dev kits. Moreover, even from TFA, Nintendo only does a QA check on the games and leaves important things, like ESRB ratings, to the developer.

I'd personally like to see ESRB-free hobbyist-targeted Wii development, maybe like Microsoft's XNA initiative.

Furthermore, it'd be nice to make them available for download for minimal price (as there is minimal COST of pushing bits over a network). But now I'm just being overly wishful.

Re:Really?

[morari]

I'll believe it when I see small garage-style shop priced Wii dev kits. If I remember correctly, the Wii SDK is only $2,000. While that is certainly a lot of money, it's really a drop in the bucket when compared to other consoles. I don't see it being anywhere near impossible for a small, dedicated development team to raise that amount of money.

Re:Really?

[LWATCDR]

Two grand for a dev kit is cheap.
You will pay more than that to develop a good website, or a good gaming PC.
Garage-style shop != parent's basement.

What you are talking about is a hobbyist system.
If you really want to develop games on the cheap write them for Linux.
There are even wiimote drivers available for Linux so knock yourself out.

Re:Really?

[Aladrin]

As noted already, the Wii Dev Kit is less than $2000. While that is still a -tad- highly for just a bit of hardware and license, it's also got some support behind it as well. Look at the rest of the costs to developing as well, though:

PC: $1000 x 2. (Got to have 2 half-decent ones, if you're even half serious. Programmer and Artist.)
Software: Free to $10000+. (Depending on if you go with a free compiler, the Gimp, and Blender or get really serious.)

And this is assuming only 2 people. (It could be done with only 1 person, but programmer-artists are pretty rare.)

So at the minimum, you're looking at enough money to match the cost of the dev kit, and if you're serious, you're going to way way overspend the cost of it anyhow.

Re:Really?

[Ant P.]

and an official Wii-mote adapter and supplimentary sensor bar you can plug into your PC for input sampling The only thing they'd need is a USB-to-sensor bar adapter. The Wiimote works with any cheap bluetooth dongle.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, while the kit is $2000, it is nowhere near as accessible as that price tag would make it sound. This is the cost, sure, but in order for nintendo to be willing to sell it to you, you need to either be a large, established studio with an existing relationship with nintendo, or you need to be sponsored by such a studio. If you don't fit either of those, you need to be at least an established game company, with headquarters with security and such and a proven track record.

They will most certainly NOT give a wii dev kit to random college students or hobbyists in their garages, whether they can pony up the $2000 or not. I found this out, as a bunch of friends and I were excited by the low price, thinking we could take a stab at it and only be out $2k between us if it didn't work. No such luck, though.

Re:Really?

[bateleur]

Nintendo also require the developer to foot the bill for ESRB testing.

The ESRB's website doesn't publish costs for that, but it's a fair bet that will also be well over the cost of the dev kit.

Re:Really?

[ravyne]

As far as I know, the $2000 price that gets bandied about was for the very early devkits, which essentially consisted of a couple wired Wiimotes, a sensor bar and some software, which was intended to be used with a Gamecube Devkit, its sole purpose was to get devs working with the Wiimote early, finding out what they could do with it, and prototyping Wii games until the full Wii Kit arrived.

If someone in the know can actually confirm one way or the other on more than hear-say I'd be glad to have it all cleared up.

Re:Really?

[tepples]

Nintendo also require the developer to foot the bill for ESRB testing.

The ESRB's website doesn't publish costs for that, but it's a fair bet that will also be well over the cost of the dev kit.

You're right. Wikipedia's article about ESRB cites a source that an ESRB rating costs $2,000 to $3,000.

Re:Really?

[Constantine XVI]

The wire off the sensor bar is for power only. You could just use one of the third-party wireless sensor bars.

Re:Really?

[Mattintosh]

The Wii SDK's price is not disclosed to the public, and is likely covered by NDA. At one time it was reported to be about $2000, but that could be an early version, a specific contract price with a single developer, or even just plain incorrect.

Then there's the unfortunately reality that it will cost you not only money, but also your soul. If you're not convinced of this, go read their criteria for becoming a Wii developer at their WarioWorld site.

If you read that page carefully, you'll note that even if you can pay for the dev kit, you have to be "accepted" as a licensed Nintendo developer first. During this acceptance process, they don't give a crap whether you can pay for the dev kit or not. You can't order one until you're accepted. But to be accepted, you have to be an established developer with an existing game portfolio, and the games can't suck. You also have to have an office. So no working from home. (This is supposedly to keep Nintendo's proprietary stuff "secure". As if an office can't be robbed.) It also states an approximate price for dev kits: $2500 to $10,000. It also states that they expect "financial stability".

Nintendo is going to make sure you're going to make and finish a game. Not just any game, but a good quality game. You can't just order a dev kit to "play with" or to make "indie" or "hobbyist" games. They want commercial games, and if you can't make one, you can't have a dev kit.

Re:Really?

[Applekid]

Please mod parent +1 informative. That link unambiguously answered all official Wii development questions I had... and simultaneously crushed my dreams. :(

Re:Really?

[tepples]

But to be accepted, you have to be an established developer with an existing game portfolio, and the games can't suck. Which platforms should these existing games be for?

Re:Really?

[Mattintosh]

crushed my dreams

Mine too. :(

I was thinking of starting out with a DS game or three, then maybe moving up to the Wii. Then reality landed on me like a walrus on an ice floe.

Re:Really?

[Mattintosh]

Read the link. In "Developer Qualifications" it explains that the games can be for other consoles or for the PC, but they must be commercial games, and should be at least mildly successful.

I guess it all really boils down to "whatever will convince Nintendo to accept you". It is, unfortunately, kinda arbitrary.

Re:Really?

[morari]

http://www.watercoolergames.org/archives/000748.sh tml It would seem as though all thought put toward indie developers were put on hold for some time. The above article indicates such at least, and does make perfect sense. It is an older write-up however, so some now debunked assumptions are made, though "At the rate we're going, independent games of any kind won't be a reality until 2008 at least" is ironic in light of recent news.

Re:Really?

[Aladrin]

I could have sworn I just read on this article that Nintendo intended to help small developers by dealing with the ESRB stuff. (For the mini-games system, not if you want to make a DVD.) Could have read it wrong, I guess.

Re:Really?

[grumbel]

Have a look at the page again, it got updated:

As of April 2, we have two categories for Wii developer status, Tier 1 and Tier 2. Tier 1 is focused on existing developers who have shipped games in the console/handheld space. Tier 2 is for startups, and other experienced software companies who have not yet shipped games. The designation of Tier 1 or Tier 2 for your company will be at Nintendo's discretion.

This whole Tier 1 and Tier 2 thingy is new and it looks like to open the door for independent developers, you still have to sell a piece of your soul, but they no longer require you to already be a developer to get started, so the chicken&egg thing is solved.

Re:Really?

[grumbel]

The german USK costs around 250-1500 , depending on the length and complexity of the title. The BPjM will ban your game for free. No idea about BBFC, PEGI and whatever other rating organizations might be around there if you want to publish a title outside of the USA.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Appologies for the spelled-out urls, the

"<a>"

tags aren't workins as I'm used to...) Interestingly, this post (http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=4671&pos tdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) on the Wii support of Unity3D mentions the $2000 price point for dev kits. Note however that was back in April, and was targeted at traditional, retail products. Note also, that wii Indie titles (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160624)won't be vetted for content - if they're under an AO ESRB rating, and http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/200 7/06/26/level-up-exclusive-on-nintendo-wiiware.asp xpass Nintendo's bugtesting you're in. So the "selling your soul" part will be vastly mitigated. This still doesn't help w/ obtaining the devkit, but I'm sure we'll get more info shortly. Ideally, they'd release an SDK/DevEnvironment/Whatever for x86 systems for free (somewhat similar to XNA for 360), but at the very least requirements for buying a devkit should be lessened - would be nice if price was less, but honestly, for anything more than general muking about, $2K isn't that big a deal.(Admitedly this is where some true innovation could occur - some brilliant, off-the-wall-so-obvious-why-didn't-I-think-of-that -but-its-amazing idea from somebody that wouldn't otherwise have come near game development might be missed.) I am, however, slightly scared by the prospect of hundreds of lame (but ESRB rated!) tetris/bejewled/goldenaxe/mario/doom/quake clones...I hope Nintendo has a good mechanism in place to seperate the quality from the crap. -Scandalon

Re:Really?

[Mattintosh]

The next paragraph down from there states:

An authorized developer must have demonstrated the ability to develop and program excellent software for Nintendo video game systems or for other video game or computer systems

That tells me that they still want to see some prior work before allowing you to do even Tier 2 development. Note that the requirement only requires excellent software, not necessarily entertainment software (i.e. games).

Re:Really?

[grumbel]

True, but they don't do any clear separation between Tier1 and Tier2 in their requirements, which might simply mean that if you don't meet those requirements you will become Tier2 instead of left out. But we have to wait and see for further news to get the details, at least now there is some hope for indie development, which there wasn't before.

Re:Really?

[tepples]

In "Developer Qualifications" it explains that the games can be for other consoles or for the PC Then how does one get accepted on one of the other consoles?

Re:Really?

[LKM]

GP's info is pre-Wii-Ware. Check it out again. Startups are now allowed to create Wii games.

Re:Really?

[antime]

But they're still not interested in hobbyists - professional game developers only. I don't know where people got this idea that cheap would equal available to everyone, as Nintendo have never shown the slightest interest in hobbyist developers.

Re:Really?

[antime]

AFAIK they all have similar requirements. If you have a good demo running on eg. a PC then Microsoft and Sony may be willing to take a chance and sponsor your game, but it's still professionals only. If you subscribe to Microsoft's XNA you can AFAIK even sell your games on Live, but you're limited to managed .NET. Sony don't offer a similar program, but you can develop for the PS3 using the "otheros" functionality, typically under Linux. You will however not have accelerated graphics, software rendering only.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Grab the home brew kits for the DS. Plenty about.

Re:Really?

[ProppaT]

The thing you're missing is that this is to become a full blown licensed developer. I believe that things are a bit different and cheaper being a WiiWare developer.

iPhone game, anyone?

[mattgreen]

This would be a perfect indie game. This isn't off-topic because it would definitely appeal to the youth of our age in choosing a 'cool' thing to make a game about.

It'd be an elaborate game of keep away. One player holds an iPhone for a round. They would move 50% faster through the maze, but his opponents would be have some sort of special power. The goal is to to run around to all the different 'sites' on the screen and correct all the misinformation about the iPhone before the release date. When you're at the site you have to do different things, like shake the controller, or draw pie charts and diagrams, to correct all the bad information that the Microsoft-loving press generates.

Re:iPhone game, anyone?

[moderatorrater]

Yes, and when you're holding the iPhone there appears to be 17 of you because the iPhone is everything to everyone!

Indie Developers

[yohanes]

Not only are they looking to big-name developers for these titles, but small garage-style shops as well.

Just wondering: how can I develop for Wii without spending a lot of money?

Instead, Nintendo would only check the games for bugs and compatibility

Hopefully this wont be like Symbian signed program, where the cost for "checking bugs and compatibility" is expensive.

Re:Indie Developers

[metroid composite]

Just wondering: how can I develop for Wii without spending a lot of money?

Define "a lot". As I understand it Wii dev kits currently go for $1000 or so--they just haven't been sold to the general public so far.

Hopefully this wont be like Symbian signed program, where the cost for "checking bugs and compatibility" is expensive.

There's a slight issue here--let's say a game needs 10 testers for a week. Let's say they get paid minimum wage (which is what, $5?) and let's assume they're not working overtime like nearly every test department is forced to. 10 testers * 40 hour week * $5/hour = $2000.

I see three possible solutions. Farm testing out to India, automate testing (have a bot go through and check each code branch for compatibility or something), or just not do very much testing. (Or take a loss, but this is frickin' Nintendo).

Okay, so supposing some combination of the above gets you down to $100 or so, you still need to worry about getting rated by the ESRB; Nintendo can't control the pricing of that. No, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to be an inexpensive distribution channel.

Re:Indie Developers

[toolie]

Define "a lot". As I understand it Wii dev kits currently go for $1000 or so--they just haven't been sold to the general public so far.

Last time I checked (when I first really paid attention to the Wii after E3 06 I think it was) the Dev kit was like $2500 (maybe $2000, definitely more than $1000 though). The problem was that the kits were only available to established companies, you had to provide a list of games that your company produced. Hopefully, this initiative changes that restriction. I would still love to get a Dev kit to play around with.

Settlers and Carcassonne?

[MacBrave]

This is welcome news. I'm hoping we will see some real quality titles like Settlers of Catan and Carcassonne that are already over on XBox Live Arcade.......

Re:Settlers and Carcassonne?

[trdrstv]

This is welcome news. I'm hoping we will see some real quality titles like Settlers of Catan and Carcassonne that are already over on XBox Live Arcade.......

I would love that. The Wii could improve on the XBLA version of Catan by using the DS to hold your player cards and actually allow a game of local multiplayer (in addition to online, and against the computer of course.)

The Most Plush Nintendo System You've Ever Seen

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not kidding.

Adventure games

[gEvil (beta)]

I've finally gotten around to playing some of the Sam and Max Season 1 games, and it sounds like games like this would be perfect as WiiWare. Straightforward gameplay/control scheme, fairly short, and highly entertaining--what more could you ask for? Hopefully they'll work with TellTale Games to get some of these or other similar games on the Wii.

Re:Adventure games

[pi8you]

Keep in mind though the 512MB of built-in memory and (current) inability to load games/saves directly from SD cards. Hopefully we'll see a firmware upgrade with this that lets the Wii load from SD cards and/or external hard drives via the USB ports on the back, but otherwise I imagine we'll be burning through that 512MB a lot quicker than we have been with the VC alone. That being said, its still fairly exciting news and I'm looking forward to picking up some new content to sit side by side with my favorite retro games.

Re:Adventure games

[AKAImBatman]

Keep in mind though the 512MB of built-in memory and (current) inability to load games/saves directly from SD cards.

I don't think that the SD Card limitation is an overall Wii limitation, but rather an issue with the Virtual Console emulation. If you think about it, the VC games are all games that originally ran off of ROM. If Nintendo is using the internal flash as virtual ROM rather than loading it into memory (and let's admit, there are only 64MB of RAM) then the SD Card might not provide fast enough data transfer rates to ensure full-speed emulation in all instances. Especially for larger games on faster systems like the N64 and upcoming NeoGeo.

It's not clear yet how much support for the SD slot the Nintendo devkit currently provides, but there is still a high probability that running WiiWare games off of SD cards will be supported by the time those games launch. :)

Re:Adventure games

[Cadallin]

I would be very shocked if the Virtual Console software isn't loading the entire ROM image into RAM. The largest game on the Virtual console is only 32MB, being Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. And the Wii doesn't have 64MB of RAM, it has 88MB. While there are larger games for the Neo-Geo, that's the biggest title for the N64.

Re:Adventure games

[AKAImBatman]

The largest game on the Virtual console is only 32MB, being Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Indeed. Which would leave only 32MB of memory Subtract 4MB for the N64 RAMBUS memory and you're down to 28. Another 4MB for the expansion pack when in use and we're down to 24. (Though I don't think any games use the expansion pack yet?) 24-28MB is the amount of space the emulator+OS has to fit within. That's not a whole lot of space by modern standards. While I think Nintendo could do it, they may be playing it safe to allow for bigger games in the future.

And the Wii doesn't have 64MB of RAM, it has 88MB.

The Wii has 64MB of GDDR3 main memory, 24MB of 1T-SRAM (!) for the GPU's use, and and extra 3MB of GPU cache/working memory for the framebuffer and whatnot. Basically, the 24MB isn't really open for general purpose usage. At least, that's not how the known specs present it.

Re:Adventure games

[tepples]

24-28MB is the amount of space the emulator+OS has to fit within. That's not a whole lot of space by modern standards. NO$GBA, an emulator of the Game Boy Advance and Nintendo DS compact video game systems, is a 144 KiB Windows executable. Is the Nintendo 64 really 200 times as complicated as the DS so that an emulator needs to be 200 times as big?

Re:Adventure games

[Anonymous Coward]

you are confusing file size with memory usage. i'd wager that your 144k executable uses more than 144k of memory.

Re:Adventure games

[AKAImBatman]

You're not seriously comparing the complexity of a Gameboy emulator to that of a Nintendo 64 emulator, are you?

a 144 KiB Windows executable

That executable links to no shared libraries, system calls, drivers, or anything else, right?

And it's not just the code size. You need to consider what kind of data the emulator might need to track at runtime. The console memory is only half the battle. You need to track the general state just like any other program. Some advanced features like JITting (an actual possibility since Nintendo knows both their system and their software) will chew through memory like candy.

Re:Adventure games

[default luser]

You're not seriously comparing the complexity of a Gameboy emulator to that of a Nintendo 64 emulator, are you?

Sure he is, and with good reason. The DS actually has quite a complex architecture (main CPU, one 3D rasterizer + T&L unit, two 2D rasterizers), with most of the features offered by the N64.

The typical size of N64 emulators on the PC/Mac are in the 1-3MB range, even with all the fancy features you expect. You can also find them in the Sub-1MB range for platforms that are short on memory.

So yes, it is certainly reasonable.

Some advanced features like JITting (an actual possibility since Nintendo knows both their system and their software) will chew through memory like candy.

Why would you waste time with JIT recompilation when you know the source and target platforms, AND control distribution? You can do an optimized conversion before you even offer the game for download, and save yourself the memory.

Re:Adventure games

[antime]

The Zelda collection on Gamecube used an emulator and OoT ran just fine. Majora's Mask had sound issues, but it will fit into the Wii's memory just fine. If you doubt that it used an emulator it was extracted and available on the net as a separate download. I personally tested it with Super Mario 64 and it worked perfectly, even though the loading process was extremely cumbersome.

You're also a bit off regarding the Wii's architecture. The 24MB 1T-SRAM is the "main memory", unchanged from Gamecube, likely for compatibility reasons. The 64MB of GDDR3 memory is the "auxiliary memory", up from 16MB DRAM in the Gamecube. The 3MB of GPU-embedded SRAM is the same, which tells you a bit about how much the chips changed between the Gamecube and the Wii.

The 64MB of aux ram will fit even the largest released N64 cartridge. The RDRAM image takes up a maximum of 8MB, and the remaining 16MB is more than enough space for the emulator code.

Someone had to say it.

[davermont]

Just rename "Manhunt 2" to "Cotton Candy and Kitty Cats" and release it this way.

Re: Rayman & Calibration...

[trdrstv]

"I have heard nothing but good things about Rayman and Elebits"

Oh, let me be the first then!

Rayman: I was halfway-enjoying the first round or 2. When it came to the area with the close-the-toilet-door scene, it was ridiculous. Not only was that event nearly impossible, the others were hard enough that I didn't care anymore, either.

The instructions are actually pretty poor in that mini-game, and was a big hassle for me. Instead of "Pushing the Nunchuck forward" to close the door (as they instruct you and is shown in the pre-game bunny animation), make a snapping motion with your wrist, like you were knocking on a door with the nunchuck. (also how you should be playing the music "dance games")

I don't enjoy games that I fight the interface, rather than play the game. This is mostly because I hate the pointing system on the Wii. There is no way to calibrate it to my TV, and I've tried everything I could think of to place the censor so that it was calibrated 'good enough'. Pointing just plain sucks.

There SHOULD be a system level calibration tool, but there isn't (at least a real good one). You can calibrate sensitivity in the Wii system settings, and if you own Zelda you can "calibrate the sensor bar" which effectively helps you center it on your TV. and they do help, but it's nothing like calibrating the touch points on a PDA.

If pointing is an issue for everything (even the channel menu) here's a few tips. One thing I've noticed that makes the Pointer go crazy is Sunlight. Due to the nature of the IR sensors, make sure you don't have direct sunlight on the wiimote or sensor bar. Close the blinds if you want to play in the middle of the day and things get better. Also the single is generally good between 3-10 feet from the sensor bar, too close or too far from that it gets wonky. Hope that helps.

Completely off topic...

[fyngyrz]

Found this in a closed-to-comments earlier slashdot story on Guitar Hero...

Again, no disrespect to Rush (I'd play it), but Zeppelin would be amazing...

...and thought you might enjoy this.

I'm a huge fan of GH, but I do actually play. :-)

Homebrew won't cut it

[nerdstrap]

The typical XBLA game costs greater than $250,000.00 to get through testing and onto the channel. The single nerd working on a homebrew game will never achieve the quality needed to get Nintendo to officially feature their game added to the download area...

Re:Indies? - HUH?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you saying?
"Adults Only" rating.... Flash... what's the connection?

Re:Rayman rocks

[GreenEnvy22]

My wife and I (I'm 27, grew up on NES, Genesis, and PC games), love Rayman. Great fun, good replay value too.

Re: Rayman & Calibration...

[SetupWeasel]

Actually the "sensitivity setting" in the Wii menu refers of the sensitivity of the IR camera in the Wiimote not the motion of the cursor across the screen. It is meant to allow you to filter out dimmer IR sources that may confuse the Wii.

List of games for what platform?

[tepples]

The problem was that the kits were only available to established companies, you had to provide a list of games that your company produced. For what platform was each company expected to have produced the games that make up the list? Could you name the recommended platforms, and the requirements to develop on those platforms?

Re:List of games for what platform?

[toolie]

If I remember it correctly, they were specifically interested in Nintendo consoles but wanted a list of all games for any platform. It felt to me like it was to weed out people who just wanted to play with the dev kit and keep it in the hands of companies that were going to produce something.

Maybe they were afraid of the multitude of crap games that would inevitably come from having it available with no restriction but cost, which may diminish people's views of the technology before it was ingrained in our psyche as not just a gimic. Whatever their reason, I was pretty disappointed at the time.

Re:List of games for what platform?

[tepples]

If I remember it correctly, they were specifically interested in Nintendo consoles but wanted a list of all games for any platform. So what way would you recommend for a startup working on a PC-based prototype of a video game to go from 0 to established company? Should one develop games for the Windows platform? If so, then how does one make a multiplayer game that doesn't need multiple PCs?

Re:List of games for what platform?

[toolie]

That is exactly why I didn't understand the requirement.

I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

We approached Nintendo at the GDC as an independent developer and the attitude was strongly one of "Go Away". They had little to no interest in even providing basic information regarding Wii development kits other than to direct us to their web site.

It's important to note that we're an established independent devloper who was looking to see if the Wii would be a good development platform. We didn't approach the booth like crazed Nintendo fans looking to score a development kit.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[tepples]

We approached Nintendo at the GDC as an independent developer and the attitude was strongly one of "Go Away". Did you finish the PC based prototype and then approach every Nintendo-licensed publisher at the convention?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

We were not pitching a game for publishing, just looking for details for the hardware and development tools as we had yet to decide on the platform for an upcoming title. They weren't interested in even having a five minute conversation. It could have been the people staffing the booth but if you can't answer basic questions regarding the _process_ to acquire development tools then you're not indy friendly.

Re:Indies? - HUH?

[stratjakt]

the Wii's browser (opera) can play flash, so if you got a wii and internet, you already got a buttload of games to play. I think the parent was thinkign along these lines.

Where is everything?

[DaSH Alpha]

Like new channels or games I care about? I think the only thing coming out this year that I care about is Mario, Metroid, and Smash Bros (they are still coming out this year right?) Seems to me that they are losing momentum, at least with gamers that have been with Nintendo forever like me.

What you need to develop for the Wii

[LKM]

I think there are some misunderstandings about what it takes for you to be accepted into Nintendo's development program. Earlier, Nintendo was pretty strict and only accepted established developers. That has changed somewhat. You can find the details at http://warioworld.com/, Nintendo's dev site, but here are the important points for pepole who aren't currently game developers:

As of April 2, we have two categories for Wii developer status, Tier 1 and Tier 2. Tier 1 is focused on existing developers who have shipped games in the console/handheld space. Tier 2 is for startups, and other experienced software companies who have not yet shipped games. The designation of Tier 1 or Tier 2 for your company will be at Nintendo's discretion.

More on this page.

Re:What you need to develop for the Wii

[toolie]

Developer Qualifications: An authorized developer must have demonstrated the ability to develop and program excellent software for Nintendo video game systems or for other video game or computer systems. In addition, an authorized developer must have a stable business organization with secure office facilities separate from a personal residence, equipment, personnel and financial resources in order to insure the security of Nintendo proprietary information and in order to ensure an effective environment for working with Nintendo and/or its licensees. Home offices do not meet this requirement. Nintendo provides authorized developers with highly proprietary information and many of Nintendo's licensees also rely on recommendations and referrals to authorized developers. For these reasons, Nintendo exercises a very high level of care in approving only a select number of authorized developers. It still isn't possible for a hobbiest, or maybe some Indie developers (depending on where they do their work, or if they have done any software work previously) to get into.

What are the odds that the 360 failures are all M$

[trdrstv]

1) Simple probability-if there is a simple 5% failure rate (too high in my book anyway) the probability that any one person will get a defective unit is 1/20 or one in twenty. However the probability that one person will get 5 defective units is (1/20)^5 or (1/3200000) one in three million, two hundred thousand. If the failure rate was so low, only 2 people in the world would share Crecente's fate. The story at 1up about the man with 11 failures would happen once for every 204,800,000,000,000 consoles sold.

The Nintendo Editor at IGN has the same issues, he's on his 5th 360 or something... I don't know about you, but if I had an X-box 360 that needed to be replaced multiple times I would be taking a second look at the environment I (the end user) am putting it in. Perhaps it's too close to my Projector or Surround sound system or PS3 or Exaust vent that dumps heat on the unit. Maybe I have multiple devices stacked, and crammed together too closely. Maybe the port on their surge bar is bad, and not protecting the 360 from flakey power. Maybe I take it to too many lan parties, and it gets knocked around. Perhaps the Shag carpet I wrapped it in (despite giving it a Pimp 70's look) traps in too much heat.

I'm not saying it's all the end user's fault. I'm just saying that the odds of it being all Microsoft's fault are (as you demonstrated above) incredibly unlikely. There has to be a point where a rational person questions these failures and takes it further than "M$ makes Shitty hardware" and starts to look at the environment the system is in to see if/how they are contributing to these failures.

Re:What are the odds that the 360 failures are all

[KDR_11k]

If the 360 was as resilient as the other consoles he'd be on his 5th or 6th one with those, too. So either the 360 tends to fail by itself or is very bad at handling environments other consoles take with no problems.

Re:What are the odds that the 360 failures are all

[SetupWeasel]

I'm suggesting it is Microsoft's fault, and that their failure rate is completely unacceptable.