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Linux MPX Multi-touch Alternative to MS Surface
An anonymous reader writes "Gizmodo has published an article (with video) on the Linux-based free alternative to MS Surface along with a quite interesting interview with its creator, Peter Hutterer.
"It may not be as fancy-schmancy as Microsoft Surface or Jeff Han's demos but this video of a Linux-based MPX multi-touch table shows that things are moving full speed ahead in the land of the free penguins. We talked with developer Peter Hutterer, who gave us his insight on the project, the iPhone and the ongoing multi-touch craze."
He talks about Jeff Han's work, MS Surface and defines the iPhone as "not the first in what it's doing, but definitely a huge impact" in the field."
Meh. All this multitouch hype is such a fad. Sure, it's great eye candy, but it's totally impractical. Do you really think that shit is going to scale down to the size of a phone!? Oh, wait...
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
I love how the community words stuff, sounds like a child being envious of big brother syndrome. I don't consider Microsoft offerings superior to others, just pointing out the wording and what is sounds like. I hear that kind of stuff way too often. Linux should be comfortable in what it is and not feel the need to compare.
I have been looking at MPX since hearing about the iphone and Surface. But where is the hardware to be able to use it?
...that someday soon, we can run Linux on a big-ass table?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Im was trying to work out what the big deal is here....there have been multi-touch drivers around for quite a while now and that video on the table looks rather primative compared to what a lot of DIY enthusiasts have running (e.g. overhead projector). Then I realised that the big deal is having multiple input devices for one X session and that the multitouch table is actually getting in the way of that and has the potential to be quite interesting. Anyone up for missile command? :)
Fingers, schmingers. What I want to know, is when those Linux guys will come up with a table that can read Hollerith cards.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Build your own multi-touch sensitive display device? It's surprisingly easy:
A LLSTEPS
http://www.instructables.com/id/EJIXKOEF3ER7VN5/?
Limina.Log
I felt it would have been better had they used an actual flat-screen touch monitor. The shadows from the projector kinda killed it. Put a decent touch-screen monitor down there and we may have something.
Also, I don't think it would have taken much to add Beryl for that extra bling that MS can't offer.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Watch the video and use those mod points!
Limina.Log
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing any widespread practical use for this critter outside of some extreme niches (e.g. kiosk or limited industrial or medical machine interfaces).
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
You know what makes the video demo in TFA more impressive that the Microsoft Surface demos I've seen?
This demo uses real applications! It's easy for MS (or whoever) to throw together a video of someone using a neat interface. You see all kinds of slick animations of photo-libraries and data being automatically uploaded to cellphones. The problem is it's probably all fake--the visual equivalent of a mockup. Basically they are showing you the way they *hope* it will look at work. If you look at some of the older Vista demos (before it was released) you'll see alot of mockup video that was never realized into actual code.
In this demo, they actually start by using Google Earth and scrolling through webpages. The fact that they are using real applications is much more impressive. It makes me believe that they may have something functional in a reasonable amount of time. It also shows that they are thinking about it as an extensible platform that can run generic software, rather than something locked-down that will only run approved code (i.e. just a really big PDA interface, rather than a novel way to interface with existing computer hardware and software).
You know, Microsoft didn't invent this multi-touch stuff, and neither did Apple. Its been around as research projects for years. So why is the MS version such a big deal?
Software!
See, the real hard part about all this is the fact that you need to come up with a completely new set of UI conventions and implement a completely new set of applications in order to make it a useable product. Until now with MS, nobody's done that.
From the article, this MPX thing seems to consist of nothing more than a modified X server, running "normal" (i.e., designed for a single cursor) applications. Therefore, it is not nearly as impressive as the MS Surface.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Meh, Mitsubishi Electric Research Laboratory (MERL) has had a real product (DiamondTouch) in the hands
of researchers for over 5 years now:
http://www.merl.com/projects/DiamondTouch/
And even published papers on it. When will Microsoft do something original?
I can finally touch my pr0n.
Gambling is one use for such a table, plenty of money in that business I'd say. Any high end sales might also benefit - think of houses, yachts etc. Sitting cosily at a table with a salesman who pulls up videos, images and... contracts....
Are these table displays going to be the first need for arbitrary window rotation? We'll be having people sitting on all sides of the display - eventually someone will want a window squared to them, but they won't be squared to the table. Does this cause difficulties with rendering the content?
Everything should be vector drawn, so theoretically it shouldn't be a problem. But it will require pretty high resolution to keep from getting too fuzzy of text. At least that's how it seems to me.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
... if you can't get in on the IPOs for this new multi-touch tech, don't worry, you can still make a killing by buying WINDEX stock now!! ;-)
Adeptus
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
I wish everyone would STOP acting like Microsoft owns multi touch technology. Microsoft has just come out with a WORSE implementation of it then Microsoft and others have done. Cameras? Not a MULTI TOUCH screen?? Yeah if you had actually read the Surface announcement, it actually uses a camera technology versus having a actual multi touch surface liek the iPhone uses.
On the other hand, I think this has to be a record with a new technology getting Linux support. It used to be you'd have to wait a while to get new technology on Linux. Not anymore.
Gorkman
MS 'Surface' is an array of cameras that motion-detect. The cameras are below the surface and they are responsible for all proxy work done between user and the system.
There is no interaction with the 'surface' other than to prescribe a boundary layer (zone) for the cameras to baseline.
Did anyone notice in that video that he had to click couple times to get some of the widgets to activate?
Maybe the mouse still has some advantage?
MS uses cameras because it does a lot more than just recognise people touching the screen. It can recognise mobile phones being put on it, different materials/objects/etc. That can't be done with a touch-sensitive screen at the moment, but it can be done with cameras. Using cameras and not an integrated solution has meant the MS offering does stuff no other has done yet. The iPhone needs a person's hand to operate, whereas the MS demo can do everything the iPhone's input device can (and, indeed MPX), and much more.
Of course not. Everyone on Slashdot knows Apple invented multitouch for the iPhone.
The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
..even though this is supposedly a multi-touch demo the guy was just using just one finger on the display for 90% of the demo!
I already have some uses for it and would love to develop for such a system.
When will Microsoft do something original?
funny coming in with an article praising linux for ripping of ms.
but then again what can we expect from people who also think that ripping off unix is innovation?
Microsoft has just come out with a WORSE implementation of it then Microsoft...
Microsoft sucks so much, even Microsoft does it better!
Hmmm, over 5 years? OK so you try to make a point while knowing the facts on only one side. You're obviously spreading a little FUD by making readers assume microsoft through this idea together recently, although they started working on it in 2001. While, according to your statements at least, they had an already finished product by then, then microsoft may be implementing their own vision of this product. However, why should microsoft be excluded from making a product. What do you mean by original, something noone has ever thought of? I didn't see anything about device recognition in your link, while moving data from digital cameras or laptops. That seems different, or is their a device that already does that? Either way- if it ends up to be a better product it will be worth microsofts investment. Otherwise, its their money spent anyways, you don't have to buy it- buy the diamond touch if its better.
is that you're hunched over them. If used for extended periods of time, the result is terrible back problems.
A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
Not to rain on anyones parade but this is why MS have the patent claims. Every time someone innovative comes out or a new idea the open source community makes their own version. Like it or not this will infringe on patents. It's because of stuff like this MS may have a real aargument in court even if the Linux fanboys say other wise.
Disclaimer : I am not a MS fanboy, I run Ubuntu but this is a valid point people keep forgetting.
I like muppets.
also remember they created that "triangle" based color optical code for Xbox cameras. that would be related. The camera reads the device code thru the table surface. They also are using IR cameras to measure "finger pressure" on the surface. It's quite clever. In some ways much cheaper because the surface is "just" a sheet of glass, not a special electrical surface... easily replaceable in commercial environs. The processor overhead is way too much though...
El Lobo (994537) has the patent on calling linux a "uninnovative unix rip off" (or "linuzzz").
Expect a C&D from him soon. Or is that you, hiding behind AC?
Why anonimous Microsoft trolls get modded positively here?
The thing with these table devices is, what about computer rage? Think of all the people punching the side of the screen, slamming their fists on the keyboard, etc. Imagine something like this happening to the table.
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"And even published papers on it. When will Microsoft do something original?"
Even if MS had no originality in Surface, it doesn't matter because EVERYBODY has heard of Surface, and very few have heard of Diamond Touch. It's the exposure that counts from their end, and from my perspective, I'm glad they did it because I never would have heard of Diamond Touch.
Let's just hope MS can actually pull this off...
perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
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But does it have Gigabit Ethernet, which Microsoft® Surface® does not have (Why Why is M$ saving $10 from a $5000-10000 computer?)?..
Everyone keeps forgetting that TouchTable, Inc. already sells a 'multi-touch' table with a real application (that is actually being used!).
you lazy fuck.
I tried on Digg to explain this more clearly to the R-tards who just say: "...but, MS Surface..." and "...iPhone..." and can't understand the significance of what they are seeing... it was a waste of time, hopefully it won't here.
This is not the same as Surface. Surface uses cameras to "see" the inputs, there are a finite (and low) number of inputs they can track simultaneously. Same with the iPhone, it can only track two inputs.
This is a complete framework to allow new and unique inputs to be created and then to allow apps to easily be created to interface with them. This also has no real limit on the number of inputs, so the possible applications are endless. This allows many *simultaneous* inputs from one or multiple inputs. It could accept a joystick, a mouse, a keyboard, a trackball, a glove interface, and more *all at once.* It isn't just one or two people using their fingers as mice, that is just a demo.
Imagine specialized interfaces that can simultaneously interact with many points on the screen at once... it is hard to do because it hasn't been done yet. Which is why it is hard to make people understand how different and revolutionary this really is.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Okay, who wants to build me one of these, and how much do you want for it?
In all seriousness, though, it would be nice to have one of these doo-dads for less than 'expensive'...
I suppose running one on top of a flat TV is impossible, for some reason? Everyone seems to want to use projectors...
So... What about ergonomics? All these "touch" things will fail. The future will be something like a mouse-eye pointing system.
What's an ass-table and why would you want a big one?
Funny because it's completely backwards, yes. MPX was around long, long before Microsoft's overpriced camera hack.
can it be replicated in Linux?
The one thing that I thought was "remarkable" about Microsoft's Surface demo was that the machine seemed to recognize that a wireless device had been placed on the surface and interacted with it. Now, obviously "seeing" a wireless device itself isn't that remarkable. But knowing which one was a particular blob on the 'screen' seemed fairly magical. Anyone have an idea how that was done?
The rest of the stuff cool, and I'm sure that whomever can afford those toys will enjoy them, but as demonstrated it didn't really seem worth the price tag.
It's one of those things that seems obvious in retrospect. The devices that it can recognize have barcodes or dotcodes on them, which the cameras can see and easily decode. In this way it knows that a certain blob is a given device.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
How is that remarkable ?
My pc can recognise my mobile phone and sync to it when the phone is in my pocket - I think they call it Blootoot or something....
See, things like this is why Lunix is still chasing Windows 95's tail lights. Rather than keeping Lunix as an interesting little tinkerer's tech toy, why don't they try getting Lunix to reliably auto-detect and auto-configure hardware? Why don't they decide to get a simple and user friendly cross-distro application installer which doesn't mandate manual config file changes and file moves?
Instead of trying to one-up Microsoft in the typical FOSSie duct-tape-and-chicken-wire fashion, why don't they try making their flagship product, Lunix, into something which is actually, you know, non-shitty? The biggest problem with teh lunix d00dz is they would rather appear to be doing something impressive, rather than actually do something impressive. Accomplishments are way too much hard work, and hard work is boring. It's far easier to make another text editor.
The video shows a front-screen configuration, and according to TFA the technology used in order to recognize distinct users has some conduction requirements or something to that effect-- makes me wonder if it will in fact support rear-screen. I find front-screen and the associated shadow-casting on these sort of displays far from optimum, and of course is impractical on a vertical wall.
Also, I'd like to see an open implementation that is less-dependent on what detection technology is utilized-- something that can take a detection array that could be produced either via vidcap (from FITR or whatever) or by the method this demo actually uses.
i dont get it, it was being projected down? look at his hands during the drawing demo.....
so they are using a projector? i dont understand how that is like the microsoft thing
dreemkill.
Isn't this always the case with OSS? Nothing to see here, move along...
Seriously, it'll have a lot of practical problems : There are going to be huge ergonomical questions to be answered.
Namely the best position to use it :
- Put it straight up (à la Minority Report) and the user will end with elbow and/or shoulder fatigue, strain and stress-induced injury.
- Lay it flat on a table (à la Microsoft Surface) and the user will be able to rest his/her hand and wrists *BUT* then he/she'll have to look down (instead of streight forward) and will end up with neck strains and back aches (ask any student that is reading a lot for the final examen and doesn't have a good position nor changes position often enough while reading).
Remember, we are speaking about computers here. Not a painter or such artist who may spend some time upright working between other position. Or a student that reads a simple book (ie.: a mobile device that can be moved around when changing position)
We're talking about a big clunky computer hardware, that can't be moved around easily and that will have to stay in a fixed position.
And a secretary who works with that computer 8 hours a days, 5 days a week, 11 months a year (depending on vacations).
All this with little freedom in changing position.
Na. It'll definitely not work.
This kind of surface will be cool device to show of (like in stylish bars in the "Big Ass table" parody).
It maybe sporadically be used (in meetings... or an interface that is used only from time to time like a telephone). But when the people will go back to work, they will get back to a classic desktop, with the input devices flat on a table where the wrists can rest and the display upright, with the golden 2/3 placed in front of the eyes.
The only way it could somewhat work on a work place is if they manage to cram everything into a flat surface (without a clunky retroprojector behind or projector above head) that could be easily tilted (like an architect's table) so the user could often change position and orientate the surface depending on what is currently worked on.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
It's remarkable because your PC doesn't say "your phone is in your top-left pocket, on its side, facing away from you". The MS surface demo showed the computer recognising the phone AND knowing where it was on the table (ie which "blob" was the device in question).
Bloke, it is Compiz-Fusion now!
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
definitely a positive step in the right direction!! I was searching on youtube the other day about surface computing, and I found some extremely old.. looked like it was in the 80's.. two guys sitting at a desk with light pens, manipulating a surface computer.. dragging and resizing pictures identical to MS Surface.. They too were using a projector instead of the table being the source of the display.. i'm sure many of you have seen it.. but to me i think it's a good idea, and maybe saves money in comparison to a huge table screen.. plus, it could make the surface computer extremely portable one day.. being able to throw your computer up on any wall and start using it.. sounds great to me!! but anyway, i'm stoked to see a Linux Alternative.. this is freakin great.. I can't wait to start using Beryl with one of these bastards ;-D
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
"For free software to avoid patent litigation, software patents need to be abolished. Thankfully, we have licenses like GPLv3 that provide some forms of protection in the meantime."
And just how is abolishing software patents going to affect hardware?
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Why does Linux fans always point out that they can do whatever too!
Sounds like a kid saying "I can do that too!"
I thought Linux was supposed to be ahead of everyone else.
First of all, congratulations to the guy that made Linux MPX.
But what is the usefulness of multi-touch on a desktop computer, or even a laptop? I can understand its utility on mobile phones which are turned and tossed around, but a computer monitor is an entirely different beast.
First of all, a monitor usually sits vertically, so it is downright impossible to move hands around on a vertical monitor for a long time.
Having monitors be tables is impractical, because a lot more space would be required in offices and homes (although it would be a perfect emulator for MAME cocktail games!).
So why the fuss? I just do not see how multi-touch surfaces can be useful in a desktop/laptop environment.
First of all there is the usefulness of any touch functionality at all on a computer, which I would say increases with the crampedness of the conditions you are operating the computer with. On a desk, the keyboard and mouse is more likely to be closer to your hands than most of the screen space, so for most UIs there isn't any benefit.
For using laptops on the go (or on the couch) it is a different story, two examples to think about: a taskbar on the bottom lies just above the keyboard, so you can directly touch the tasks or shortcuts to access them. It is like an extra row of programmable feedback capable keys.
Secondly scrolling webpages is like pushing paper, yes you can use the scollbars but an adobe-reader like grab and drag function provided by a firefox extension makes this a much more dreamlike experience. Directly pressing on links is also simply more intuitive as you are only looking at one space on the screen from will to execution of will. Touch is simply a more streamlined experience, with some speed benefits in certain cases.
To me multi touch is simply an additional dimension on top of this, the ability to not only scroll but zoom ala Jeff Han's implementation. And to be able to right click and use other function gestures of course.
Also I can only imagine how much more accurate cursor recognition would be in response to finger presses with a multi touch capable screen. Current touch screens can be jittery with fingertips, although fair much better using fingernails.
I don't think multi touch is the end of the story, I would also like to see at the very least passive tactile feedback like the one provided by the Immersion Touchsense for mice like the Logitech ifeel. Buttons really should feel like buttons for faster recognition and mainstream acceptance.
As far as I know the main disadvantage notebook sellers have had with adding touch screens is with the graininess it can add to the display. I am not sure how the technology will improve in this area. But the Toshiba Portege 2000, Panasonic R5 and various Fujitsu subnotebooks each around 1kg in weight had options for touchscreen, and these were not even convertible tablets. Most of them were only ever released in Japan though.
Thanks for the reply, but I did not ask about the usefulness of multitouch displays in general, but on the desktop. Whatever you say is correct, but it can not be easily applied to the vertical desktop / laptop screen.
Just curious: how much of your CPU does all this sophisticated image processing chew up?
And what's the update rate? Note that a typical USB mouse updates at 125 Hz. RF wireless mice do about 50 Hz (and are considered "jerky").