Slashdot Mirror
Where the Wii Fits In
AGFlamey writes "On Angry Gamer is an interesting and lengthy article about the new direction Nintendo are taking with the Wii and in particular "non-games" like Wii Fit and Big Brain Academy. From the article: "Hardcore folks don't like to admit it, but Mario and Zelda are relics of the past. It's become quite clear that Nintendo is losing interest in remaking the same old games over and over. They want to pull us into something new, if only we can give them the chance." Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?"
Don't count out the classics just yet. AAA titles like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid are pretty much the main attraction for Nintendo fans, and without them, Nintendo wouldn't be able to support itself with novelty alone. AAA titles have always been Nintendo's pillar of strength, and the only reason they didn't call it quits when the Gamecube lost out last time round.
Zelda Twilight princess and Super Mario Galaxy not to mention the upcoming Metroid shooter kind of make this guys argument seem silly. Nintendo is pursuing the casual gamer but they are not about to "neglect their roots."
In case you have forgotten, the old lines are the better sellers. Among all the newer things like wii sports, and many others, Mario and Zelda still have a huge fan base and still sell. It is not a bad thing that Nintendo is moving for more lines, but they should still keep the old tried and true (and the better) series until sales begin to drop (which they never will, if the quality keeps up and only when fans become bored). I still play all the older sets, and my friends still do, and we all find enjoyment in things like Smash and Zelda and Starfox and mario party.
What they're trying to do is create an entertainment console that everyone, not just hardcore FPS gamers, can have a go at. There are far more ordinary people out there than hardcore gamers (that market is pretty much completely saturated), and this is probably why some people from Microsoft and Sony have got surprised and upset over the success of the Wii.
When will there be a store which actually has a Wii for sale to go along with their fancy store display?
Yeesh. Hardcore gamers are still struggling to "get" the Wii in the first place. Every single Wii story on Slashdot since November has been littered with the following post, usually modded up by another gamer (mix and match sentences as appropriate):
;)
"Yeah, Nintendo may make a few dollars from Grandma, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I bought one on release and there just aren't any good games that I like now. I've gotten bored of it and it's collecting dust in my closet. I'm back to playing GTA for the 14th time on my PS2. I'm selling my Wii as I wait for MGS to come out for PS3. The Wii's graphics look dated, come on Nintendo, you're going to lose my dollars here! I don't see what the big deal is with the Wiimote, it's just a gimick and will rapidly become boring to people. I'm already sick of the Wiimote and wish Nintendo would release some good 70-hour long RPGs."
Etc, etc, etc.
The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE. By the end of the summer there will be more Wiis out there than 360s (the next largest market). And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock. All with "no good games" to buy.
No shit the hardcore gamers don't understand the new games - hell, they never understood the old games in the first place (ie: why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??).
Now to watch people respond to this post with exactly the dialog I quoted above
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Nintendo isn't the only one making games for the Wii. Not to mention that the point of any game system is to amuse and entertain, something that nintendo seems to have realized very well. If nintendo were to go out and forbid third party developers from making shooters or RPGs that'd be one thing, but frankly this is like accusing McDonalds of not catering to salad lovers when they introduce a new burger. If you don't like McDonald's salad offerings go buy a salad from some place else, and in the meantime, try that new triple bacon 4 cheese double quarter pounder and see if you like how it tastes.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
So, Nintendo wants to try something REALLY new with this machine of theirs, outside of the usual multiple-choice stories with little educations of social value of most console developers, and this article slams them for that. These reviewers want more progress of the arts, and not so much progress of the _useful_ arts. Fine. But calling the new Mario/Zelda/Metroid games relics, as if they're just a rehash? I'd highly disagree with that - the new Zelda games, for instance, on the DS and Wii, just with the control alone have very much changed the very feel of the games. Not that each aren't sequels, but the rate of change over previous sequels is relatively huge in this generation, and in every case I've seen and played has been an unusual improvement for what I want out of pure artistic/storytelling/interactive gaming.
Yes, we're not seeing many new protagonists this first generation of first party games from Nintendo for the Wii. Nintendo is playing it safe in their newly reformed gaming environment. So, they gauge the response to this first generation, and try to maximize the latent demand for existing worlds of imagination before making new ones... I definitely understand that process. That means they aren't gamblers going for broke, they wait until there's standing capitol for a venture before letting the allotment of risk increase. They also get to spend more time in development in play testing and improvement this way... which has certainly played out well for the end result, from what I've played so far.
Want to call Zelda, Mario, Metroid relics? That's fine. It's ad-hoc, but a valid opinion if you want to always prefer newly created worlds. But give them a chance if you ever want to try some of the most finely refined mix of new gameplay elements and old out there. I still appreciate such 'relics'.
Ryan Fenton
I have to say I disagree with the writer's conclusion here.
Nintendo is "oriented" in the same direction all companies are orientated: making the bucks. To do that they have to have a product people prefer over that of the competition, and right now they've got one.
Nintendo discovered itself with a game player capable of things other players could not previously do. If you take away the new control interfaces however the Wii has very little on the playstation 2 let alone the playstation 3.
Nintendo may realize that they have to capitalize on these advantages, and are attempting to do so. XBOX and Playstation six axis game controllers are already in development. The Wii could lose it's spec ial charms at any time. What they have at the moment is the opportunity to get a jump on the competition with new interface formats and new game styles. We may be seeing a frantic research project on the part of Nintendo to find a way to get a lock on the "new thing" while they still have exclusive access.
A surf or skateboard game would seem to be very preferable over a yoga game, but they don't have to make one. They just have to get the board into the marketplace before microsoft. I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. Where they make the money is not by making a semi-popular game with a controller that is probably a wash profit wise. They make it when "Tony Hawke" comes out for their patented controller and everyone's got to buy a Wii so they can play it.
It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.
I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.
Come on. If there's one thing that you can't accuse Nintendo of it's lacking originality in coming up with new games.
Look at the WarioWare series of games, for example. If WarioWare: Smooth Moves on the Wii isn't an example of "reinventing the entire story behind a game" then, please tell us, what out there is?
As for the Gamecube being a failure, well, if you go by the number of consoles sold then, sure, it wasn't as popular as the PlayStation 2, and was a "failure" but if you use that whacky profit metric that those crazy kids down at Wall Street are so fond of, the Gamecube did quite well.
I've never owned a Nintendo console in my life but it seems that they've made plenty of original games along the way, as well as making plenty of sequels (and let's not forget that sequels can be original too!), and made plenty of money doing it.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I dont see this as abandoning the past as much as I do widening the future. Mario, Metroid and Zelda are all there or coming soon, Nintendo has simply expanded its horizons to attract a new audience. The Wii has created a buzz that hasnt been seen in the home gaming market since the Atari 2600, its become the cool thing to have for families, its very social and its accessable to anyone at any skill level. I had my in-laws who have trouble operating their dvd player participating in a game of Wii sports last night, if they can figure it out anyone can. Wii fit and Brain Training are perfect for them as well. The Wii is carving out a market that ensures it survival and expands the base of gamers across the board.
There is no doubt in my mind that the "Winner" in terms of product sold will be the Wii, however the important number for "traditional gamers" will be who comes in second. Either the 360 or ps3 could reach ps2 type sales numbers and still come in second. The "traditional gamers" are still there and are still a huge market to abandon them would be stupid, even Nintendo is aware of that.
A market where each company is pursing a somewhat different customer base is better for consumers and better for the companies involved.
Which would you rather have, a choice between three consoles who are all somewhat different, each catering to a different set of gamers, or a market where all three console manufacturers shipped boxes that were essentially identical and catered to only a narrow market?
Whining about the Wii being too casual is like whining about how Cheerios don't taste like Frosted Flakes. If you don't like the Cheerios, just buy the fucking Frosted Flakes!
The cake is a pie
Stay out of the way of MS and Sony's schlong war and whatever theyre doing, do something different. Oh yea.. and laugh all the way to the bank as they scoop up the 98% of everyone who isnt a hardcore gamer.
While you are searching for a new audience you may forget to keep the old one with you, and end up not finding that new audience after all.
The simple fact is that electronic gaming has far wider frontiers then is usually reported by the "hardcore" gaming press (Consoles and PC).
I know a girl that spends a lot of time gaming online. MMO's? FPS? No, a puzzle site with word puzzles. There is a whole forum around were they exchange new sites, discuss solutions etc etc. Very much like you would find around say the various ID engines even includng people building their own puzzles and sharing them.
BUT you will not find them at E3 or reviewed at any "regular" gaming site.
Tapping into this different audience may be what Nintendo is trying to do. Perhaps they just realize they cannot compete with the big boys for "harcore" games and know that they must try something different.
OR maybe, just maybe, Nintendo is being really clever here. Perhaps they want to have BOTH markets. Why exactly should the Wii be limited to only "hardcore" or "casual" games?
The PC has hardcore games off all sorts AND you can play all those thousands of flash games on it. For every PC used as a flightsim or a FPS or MMO there is a puzzle pirates PC.
If you ever hear someone talk about consoles being bigger then PC's in gaming, you know you are talking to a snob. Microsofts Solitaire IS a computer game and no conolse in the world can match those sales figures. Or for that matter phone sales.
I think Nintendo is just releasing games it thinks might make a profit. Some of them happen to be games that we do not usually see in 'hardcore' gaming circles. However they have always been around (Chess games for instance on various consoles, including Nintendo's)
So basically nothing new. Business as usuall except some idiot notices other games selling and thinks it is the revolution. It ain't.
That might be a valid comparison if every TV sold came with a Wii.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
First comment: Arguably, Windows is better for the average person. Try getting Grandma on the command prompt. Additionally, More != Better, however in this case, the Wii is clearly a good product, unlike the Windows/Linux comparison, where most people here assume "Windows sucks." Second Comment: Good for you. I'm still happily buying Xbox games. Nintendo happens to hold a mass appeal to me, as they happen to have a track record of having amazingly fun games.
I'm sure a vast majority of the crowd here wasn't around for the heydey of the arcade. I'm not talking about Street Fighter II era, I'm talking about the oldschool games that munched quarters like crazy like Frogger or the original Mario Bros (not Super). You didn't need to know 9 controller/button combos to play efficiently. You could simply walk up and play. The game-play got more difficult as you progressed but the basic principal was that anybody could play, and it didn't take a lot of frustration trying to learn. Fast forward to now. I'm not a Nintendo fanboy by any means, but I do know when I'm having fun. Fun is a relative word, and for some people having fun is memorizing the zillions of button combinations & intense story-line required to play some games on other systems. For the rest of us that just want to pick up a game and simply enjoy it the Wii has amazing allure, and will continue to grow in its fan-base. No wonder people over 30 are buying it in droves...they're of the few that remember the simple (but fun) days of the arcade.
I don't want to get into any elitist intellectualizing about this, but there are a lot of hardcore gamers who have ignored Nintendo for a long time as a kiddie console. These gamers have grown up on the standard games that have become the 360 and PS3's stock in trade: mass market sports and Michael Bay action.
I think Nintendo has done a very smart thing by leaving Sony and MS alone to play out the tragedy we've seen many times before (e.g. ATI vs. NVidia). Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition, so what other direction can video gaming go in? How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders or whatever, increase the ways that people can control a game? In the same way that we have not seen what the PS3 is capable of with its nine graphics cores and blah blah blah, we have not seen the limits of what the Wii control scheme offers.
So now we have a lot of gamers who grew up on the PS2 who now have become site writers and game reviewers, and they just can not make sense of the Wii's appeal. They start to use epithets like Grandparents and throw a giggly aside at "Cookin' Mama" about how it's kind of cool but what's the point? The Wii has caused tremendous congnitive dissonance in the gaming industry and it just so happens that a lot of loud people are writing about it.
The Wii is as significant a transition as the move to D-button gamepad controllers (Nintendo again), and now all of these game writers who are dependent on their DualShock style controllers are pissed that FIFA 08 doesn't come out for months and months so they turn their frustration to the console that *is* getting popular and playable games throughout its launch honeymoon. PS3 and 360 people are stuck waiting for the next wave and convincing themselves they like to using motion sense mode in Motorstorm.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
The first thing I thought when I saw the Wiimote was how every arcade game I'd seen at bars in recent memory A) was based on something familiar to non-gamers (those fucking golf games), and B) had abandoned the joystick/multiple buttons control scheme. Nintendo may risk losing the basement dwellers, but it's a really smart bet on their part.
"You know why you do not see me styling wit my homies? Because I have no homies!!" -Mojo Jojo
Personally, I think Nintendo did the right thing with not putting a CDROM on the N64. CDROM slowed everything down. The first time I saw that "Loading...." message on a playstation, I almost lost it. Nintendo stuck with the older technology because they felt it would offer a better gaming experience, and it did. Granted, they didn't win over the people who didn't really think it through, and just wanted shiny full motion video and CD quality sound in their video games. I think those are the things that take away a lot from games, because they cost a lot of money to produce, and don't really add much playability to the game. As for the GC losing out last generation, well, they sold very close to as many units as the XBox, and made a ton more money doing it. You can say that MS has to lose money to break into the market, but it's their second generation, and they are still losing tons of money on their console offering. The Wii is obviously very popular, and while it isn't for everybody, I think that it offers a lot of what people have been looking for. Maybe not what the hardcore gamers have been looking for, but what a lot of other people have been looking for. If you don't like it, that's fine. There's a lot of hardcore photography enthusiasts who don't like the little point and shoot cameras, and feel that they are really bad products. But they are providing something that many people find useful and easy to use. As for online play, well, it would be nice, but it's not anything that I feel is really missing from most of the games I play. If I wanted online games, I'd stick with a PC, because that's where the best online games have always been. Where the PC was 7-8 years ago is where the console is finally catching up to.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
What remakes? I'd love to get some Mario or Zelda remakes, but since Mario All Stars on the SNES, I have seen none.
If you mean to say that all Mario and Zelda games are alike, well, there's usually more difference between two Mario games than there is between to FPS from different franchises, so I don't understand the complaint. Apart from the main character and the fact that you can jump on stuff, there's no a whole lot of similarities between Super Mario Bros. and Mario Sunshine - and in those cases where Nintendo did go back to the roots with a new game (New Super Mario Bros, for exmple), it was very well received by gamers. If anything, Nintendo is not doing enough "retro games" in the vein of New Super Mario Bros.
Finally, I can't see how games like Zelda or Super Paper Mario would be better if they featured characters other than Link and Mario. Who cares? They're awesome games.
I don't particularly care if the games franchises themselves die out, as long as those characters remain in circulation. If Nintendo ever stopped using Mario or Link as characters in their games completely, then I'd be dissapointed, but the franchises themselves are getting old.
The difference is that with online play or at a lanparty, the otherwise meaningless repetition of playing through the same level over and over again, is made meaningful by having copious amounts of fresh meat, who will hopefully start behaving differently after I've nailed them in the head with an AK-47 for the third consecutive round.
Playing said level single player or against bots (as is the case with platformers like mario) is entirely pointless, unless it is to familiarize yourself with the level in order to "pwn some n00bs" at a later date.
Nintendo has repeatedly resisted and refused to incorporate online play as a component of their consoles and games. Yes I do own a Wii, but its collecting dust in my living room, the novelty wore off in about 2 weeks. Its modded and yes I do have a considerable amount of bandwidth with which to download wii games, but I can't even be bothered frankly.
My PS3 is only occasionally used right now (busy with work these few months) mainly to play Ninja Gaiden.