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DHS To Share Spy Satellite Data Over the US

An anonymous reader sends us to the Wall Street Journal for the news that later this year the US Department of Homeland Security will begin sharing US spy satallite data with law enforcement and other customers. From the article: "...one of [DHS]'s first objectives will be to use the network to enhance border security, determine how best to secure critical infrastructure and help emergency responders after natural disasters. Sometime next year, officials will examine how the satellites can aid federal and local law-enforcement agencies, covering both criminal and civil law... DHS officials say the program has been granted a budget by Congress and has the approval of the relevant committees in both chambers... Unlike electronic eavesdropping, which is subject to legislative and some judicial control, this use of spy satellites is largely uncharted territory... [A CDT spokesman said] 'Not only is the surveillance they are contemplating intrusive and omnipresent, it's also invisible. And that's what makes this so dangerous.'"

161 comments

  1. free to citizens too? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hmm...so, should this info be made freely available to the US citizens, so we can monitor how well our govt. is doing things like protecting our border...where they are gathering in reference to peaceful protests, how well they're responding to emergencies (would have been interesting for Katrina to see them all standing around).

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:free to citizens too? by The+Angry+Mick · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hmm...so, should this info be made freely available to the US citizens, so we can monitor how well our govt. is doing things like protecting our border...

      ...and keeping an eye on that super hot, nubile young terrorist type that likes to sunbathe in the nude on the roof of our building...

      --

      I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

    2. Re:free to citizens too? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that, even tho we paid for the information we dont get access to it.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:free to citizens too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry Bush will be giving this data over to Corporations as another gift for their support. Then you can pay a second time for data your taxes already paid for!

    4. Re:free to citizens too? by Surt · · Score: 1

      She is hot, thanks for pointing that out.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    5. Re:free to citizens too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What kind of Peeping Tom pervert are you?

      Let the officers do their jobs, and you do yours. The local department has her surveillance well in hand.

    6. Re:free to citizens too? by dintech · · Score: 1

      Unlike electronic eavesdropping, which is subject to legislative and some judicial control, this use of spy satellites is largely uncharted territory...

      And so is shooting the damn things down...

  2. They should share it with everyone... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's be honest...Law enforcement isn't going to get much use out of this...there is too much data, and they have too few people and resources to sift through it all.

    Geeks on the other hand, would have a field day. There would be AJAX pages tracking border crossers in real time, sites dedicated to assembling satellite photos of crimes in progress, the works.

    Sure, you'd have to deal with lawsuits from every nude sunbather in america, but that's a small price to pay for freedom.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    1. Re:They should share it with everyone... by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...there is too much data, and they have too few people and resources to sift through it all. Actually, that's kind of what worries me. There isn't going to be any 'discovery' of crimes use to this at all. I fear for this only to be abused.

      I can run through a horror scenario and I'll even welcome the tinfoil hat comments.

      Your son gets a speeding ticket & tells a cop to "go fuck himself." There's nothing exactly illegal with that. Annoyed and upset, the policeman writes down the vehicle's make, model & license plate. The officer returns to his precinct and proceeds to monitor your sons vehicle. Your son happens to surpass the speed limit & the officer promptly issues a speeding ticket ... and another ... and another. Where ever your son goes at night, this policeman checks it and waits for him to show up at the wrong place at the wrong time to nail him with a crime. Law of parties can be a very powerful charge.

      See the problem with this 'tool' is that any law enforcement with an ax to grind or whatever motive can wait for you to slip up. Everyone breaks the law, it's just a question of when. That's what worries me. This is like entrapment or some crazy idea of your government viewing you as guilty until everything is monitored and you're proven innocent. Everyone is human and therefore makes mistakes and this spells bad news for anyone who crosses the police or is the target of racial prejudice.

      Long story short, it's not useful to 'discover' criminal activity & is just begging to be abused. We have warrants for a reason, get them in place on this!
      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Caerdwyn · · Score: 1
      Here's a question, though.

      How is this different from a LANDSAT photo? From NewsCopter 1 over a fender-bender in the Maze? From me flying 1,000 feet overhead in a rented Cessna and taking pictures? (Smile!) From setting up on a hilltop with a monster telephoto lens and an 8 megapixel SLR? Barbara Streisand? If it's just resolution... Cessna@1000 or telephoto lens beats out any spy satellite. If it's law... well, no, it isn't. See previous Cessna/Streisand reference.

      The only difference is who is taking the pictures. If the NSA/CIA/NRO etc. are taking pictures, I'd like to see mine. I want to make sure they get my good side. * drops pants *

      In all seriousness. With LANDSAT becoming a thing of the past, we need a source of high-quality overhead images to get real work done. As the articles mention, this is gold for people doing work with flood control, forest management, fire abatement, urban planning, ice pack monitoring, wildlife surveys (best way to count migrating wildebeest! Especially those New Jersey wildebeest). Gimme some infrared wavelengths that penetrate water vapor, let's do highway traffic flow analysis and realtime metering signal control or highway patrol dispatch, rain or shine.

      Plenty of legitimate, useful, fully legal uses. Think of it this way: it's a civilian benefit from a military budget. How cool is that?

      --
      Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
    3. Re:They should share it with everyone... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "Your son gets a speeding ticket & tells a cop to "go fuck himself." There's nothing exactly illegal with that. Annoyed and upset, the policeman writes down the vehicle's make, model & license plate."
      1. My son would have to apologize to the police officer. It is rude, uncalled for, and stupid.
      2. How it any different than the officer just watching out for him.
      This would be a case of stupidity being it's own reward.

      Now for a little more reality How the heck is a spy satellite going to read a license plate? They are over head the slant angle they would need to see license plate would make it very unlikely that they could spot it. So unless they are going to start requiring people to pant a BIG id number on the top of there car I am not going to worry all that much.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. My son would have to apologize to the police officer. It is rude, uncalled for, and stupid.
      2. How it any different than the officer just watching out for him.
      This would be a case of stupidity being it's own reward. 1) It's called Freedom of Speech--saying something that someone doesn't like shouldn't incur any special attention from the government. That statement is a criticism of the government and local law enforcement. You threaten that and you threaten the only method by which we have to win our freedoms back.

      Now for a little more reality How the heck is a spy satellite going to read a license plate? Doesn't need to, he has the address from the state ID, he just needs to track the vehicle by color when he's bored sitting on his ass. Find it parked in front of the house and keep tabs on it. Watch it park at a party, show up, check the plates, bust the party and arrest him for a noise violation or anything really. Shows up at a bonfire? Call every local fire department and charge him with not having a permit. Etc, etc.

      You can enjoy your 1984, I'll be fighting it.
    5. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Ok.

      The police officer calls you a criminal. You're offended, you tell the police officer that you're going to report HIS misbehavior. So he starts tracking you and so on.

    6. Re:They should share it with everyone... by dmpyron · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ever hear of OBD III? The spec for it includes a two way radio. It could be used by the cop on the side of the road to get your speed without ever turning on a radar. In theory, it could also be used to, for instance, turn off your car. That's not in the spec, but there's no telling what might get "added in" by our benevolent government. You don't think that the ELINT can't pick up those signals? And discriminate? Paranoid? Maybe. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

    7. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1957_Plymouth_B elvedere.jpg ?

      If only anyone could afford one...

    8. Re:They should share it with everyone... by delong · · Score: 1

      Long story short, it's not useful to 'discover' criminal activity & is just begging to be abused. We have warrants for a reason, get them in place on this

      If it has no use in "discovering criminal activity", then how exactly will it be abused?

      Police currently do not need warrants to overfly your property and take all the pictures they want. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy from overflight. By simple analogy, you also have no reasonable expectation of privacy from satellite photography. Ergo, no warrant required because it is not a search for purposes of the Fourth Amendment.

    9. Re:They should share it with everyone... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can run through a horror scenario and I'll even welcome the tinfoil hat comments.

      You have a vastly overinflated idea of a) how much detail can be seen from satellites, and b) of how thorough the coverage is. (Much of Google's 'satellite' coverage actually comes from aerial photography.) And even so, the top of one car looks pretty much like another.
       
       

      Long story short, it's not useful to 'discover' criminal activity

      If it's not useful for detecting criminal activity - then it's also not useful for detailed tracking as required by your horror scenario.
    10. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) how much detail can be seen from satellites You're right, and that capability will never be in place. In fact, I bet they're completely honest about what they can and can't see from space.

      Let's just all go back to watching TV and forget this was ever brought up. *Whew* That was close, I almost had a free thought there.
    11. Re:They should share it with everyone... by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

      If it has no use in "discovering criminal activity", then how exactly will it be abused?

      In discovering non-criminal activity that should be none of their business anyway. If the police gets the data, data-mining companies will get the data; they'll discover you parked 5 times last month in front of the liquor store - the trucking company where you applied for work won't hire you, because you may have a drinking problem, no matter that you were going to the computer store across the street. They'll discover your car was parked overnight in the same parking lot where a colleague keeps her car; your wife's lawyer will have a ball with this at the divorce proceedings - and try to prove you had actually lent the car to a friend that happened to live in the same building. They'll find out that you drove to the city on the date when some security-related event happened; since you don't usually drive to the city, that will be flagged as unusual behavior. Some nice people in dark suits will show up at your office and ask some discrete questions - guess the promotion to this new position where you'll work on a sensitive project won't happen anymore, just in case. And so on, and so on. The possibilities are endless.

    12. Re:They should share it with everyone... by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      You have a vastly overinflated idea of a) how much detail can be seen from satellites, and b) of how thorough the coverage is. (Much of Google's 'satellite' coverage actually comes from aerial photography.) And even so, the top of one car looks pretty much like another. So then, why would law enforcement want to get a hold of this data?
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    13. Re:They should share it with everyone... by delong · · Score: 1

      If the police gets the data, data-mining companies will get the data

      This is by far one of the most ludicrous paranoid screeds I've read in a long time.

    14. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So unless they are going to start requiring people to pant a BIG id number on the top of there car I am not going to worry all that much. Spy satellites had the capability to resolve down to a license plate before most of you were born. So, no it wouldn't need to be a BIG id.

      Correlating all that data is the biggest problem, but I have no doubt that they have been used to peep on nude roof sunbathers at one time or another. What kind of people do you think engineered, programmed and tested the bloody things? If you were testing it, would you
      1. point it at the snowy waste lands of Siberia
      2. point it at a nude beach in the South of France


      and be honest with yourself.
    15. Re:They should share it with everyone... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      Thieves can use it to plan the crimes (the ones with secret warrants as well as the regular kind), and who exactly will be spying on children in playgrounds and what will they be planning.

      Of course the really cool things is it is digital, so what was in it can be altered as well as when it actually occurred.

      When they can continuously monitor and control your family, they control you, good luck.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    16. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In some cases it makes sense, but you (and other surveillance apologists) have taken the "no expectation of privacy" argument to ludicrous extremes.

      According to your reasoning, there would be no problem with you, a police officer, tailing an attractive woman, filming her everywhere she goes in public space, just stopping when she enters a private building. You would continue every day, waiting outside of the door for her departure. You'd film everywhere she went, and record everything she said to anyone while outdoors. As long as she doesn't notice you watching, you say, you're not doing anything wrong. After all, she's in a public place, so there's no expectation of privacy, right?

      Obviously, this is screwed up reasoning. The mistake is clear. You have completely missed the invention of the computer and electronics. Your argument lives before the days of electricity, when the above scenario could only be carried out blatantly, with the direct physical presence of the offending agent. In those days, it would be clear that the act is an offense.

      With computers, advanced surveillance devices, and networking, this is no longer the case. It is physically possible to have the above scenario apply to every single human in the country in a surreptitious manner. It would cost money, but it is now possible.

      Furthermore, saying that someone "has no expectation of privacy" is merely a self-fulfilling prophecy in this case. It's like you going out with a gun, pointing it at a random person's head, telling them they "have no expectation of living" and feeling justified when you pull the trigger. Of course your statement was accurate, but it was a description of your own insane behavior, not an unalterable truth.

      People do have an expectation of privacy in public -- certainly not complete privacy, but I guarantee you that if you take a random sample, at least 90% will not expect that they're being constantly watched and recorded everywhere they go. They expect that they're not being surveilled. They expect at least this amount of privacy, in public! In other words, you are altering the definition of "privacy" as you wish to expand it and contract it to fit flawed logic.

    17. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, No one Fing cares about privacy or Big brother anymore.
      Guiliani, Romney, Clinton, Obama, McCain
      They ALL, yes ALL will continue the We Must Protect You From Yourself in one form or another,

      The ONLY candidate talking about these issues, wanting to fix them for the People, not special interest is Dr. Ron Paul.

      But you know what, no one gives a shit. Everyone is more concerned with their party can do no wrong, blah blah blah crap
      The candidates from both parties are going to SCREW YOU. It was a nice country...

    18. Re:They should share it with everyone... by delong · · Score: 1


      People do have an expectation of privacy in public -- certainly not complete privacy, but I guarantee you that if you take a random sample, at least 90% will not expect that they're being constantly watched and recorded everywhere they go


      This is what happens when people too ignorant to educate themselves are left to blather on all over the Internet about what they feel is illegal. Willful ignorance, it's an ugly thing. You have company here, though. The moniker on Slashdot should be "Anonymous Ignorant Dumbass Coward", it would fit better.

    19. Re:They should share it with everyone... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "Correlating all that data is the biggest problem, but I have no doubt that they have been used to peep on nude roof sunbathers at one time or another. What kind of people do you think engineered, programmed and tested the bloody things?"
      That is a myth. Even with active optics that kind of resolution is impossible. Even if was possible looking straight down it is impossible at the slant angle you would need to see a license plate.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    20. Re:They should share it with everyone... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "Doesn't need to, he has the address from the state ID, he just needs to track the vehicle by color when he's bored sitting on his ass. Find it parked in front of the house and keep tabs on it. Watch it park at a party, show up, check the plates, bust the party and arrest him for a noise violation or anything really. Shows up at a bonfire? Call every local fire department and charge him with not having a permit. Etc, etc."
      Wow you really don't have more than say a 5th grade understanding of physics. Spy satellites don't hover. They are expensive and there are just not that many of them. You can not use one to monitor a home in realtime! Also you can not believe that a cop on the beat will have access to a real time data feed form an imaging satellite.
      If you wish to "fight" 1984 I really suggest that you learn a little about what the heck you are so worried about!

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    21. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      LWATCDR has a good point. Spy satellite cannot read license plates! They can't do it for at least two good reasons.
      1. Slant angle: They are unlikely to have a good angle on the plate to make it legible.
      2. Resolution: Even if they do have a good angle, they are at LEAST 200 MILES away from the car. And that is if the satellite is in an extremely low orbit (they are usually higher) and directly over the car, in which case problem #1 applies. In order for them to have enough resolving power to reliably read a license plate, the lens on the camera would have to be enormous. Much bigger than Hubble's 2.4 meter lens. If you want to do the math yourself, this page gives enough information to get an upper bound on resolving power for a lens at a particular wavelength.
      Trust me, you can't identify individuals or individual vehicles from orbit. It's not physically possible with the quality and size of the optics we can put into space. This could, however, be used to alert law enforcement that SOME vehicle was crossing the border, or straying into some restricted zone. Especially if it was used with automated change detection algorithms (like the ones that the image processing community is currently working on) to shift through the massive amounts of data and flag areas of interest for a human observer to review.
    22. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I re-read your commentary, an incredible enlightenment overcame me. I apologize for my former ignorance, and thank you deeply for your knowledgeable, relevant response. It surpasses even your original post in intelligence and wisdom.

      "Anonymous Ignorant Dumbass Coward"! What profound brilliance!

    23. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Satellites are good for some things. They're pretty handy out in the desert, for instance. You can see a cargo van in an otherwise trackless desert using a satellite pretty easily; or if a few vehicles had driven the same route, you'd be able to clearly see the hard-packed trail they'd leave. That's pretty useful in terms of border security.

      Might also be handy to watch the same area over time, looking for changes that you might not notice if you were there in person. It might not be economically feasible to run aerial photography over a location more than a few times per year, but a satellite might overfly it every day -- that would give you a lot of imagery to look at differences in. And it might let you fly over areas that are just too remote or uninteresting for aerial flyovers. Things like illegal logging or toxic dumping would be the obvious uses.

      Overall I can only think of limited scenarios where it would really be all that handy. Your average bank robbery, car chase, or drug deal? Not so much. It's not like these satellite capabilities are that new; police departments haven't exactly been begging the NSA for satellite coverage, probably because they realize it's of limited usefulness.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    24. Re:They should share it with everyone... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Reply because it *is* useful for some things. - for looking for/at tracks or camp locations in the wilderness (or any extended activity for that matter). For watching potential, um, agricultural sites. Etc... etc...
       
      Just because it's not good enough for instantaneous and individual tracking doesn't mean it's not good for other purposes or that datamining might not yield information.

    25. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose you might see a few of those, but really how would they know?

      The real pains in the ass will be the Bush family and friends, Dubya's "Base". All of them suing for invasion of privacy because they know they've been observed burying bullion and chests of securities all over their estates. In reality, this has been going on for decades and they've been sneaking around at night digging up their neighbors caches for almost that long.
    26. Re:They should share it with everyone... by lawpoop · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Man, I'm really hoping that satellite photography is something that's being over-sold to your average law enforcement as some kind of techno-magical panacea that doesn't really live up to its claims, rather than an all-purpose 'know everything about everybody' that conspiracy theorists fear. Even if it doesn't completely allow you 'total information awareness', even partial law-enforcement awareness might be a gigantic invasion of privacy.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    27. Re:They should share it with everyone... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Circumstantial evidence cannot be used to prove a crime was committed.
      The fact that i parked a car overnight in front of a beer store does not mean i drank 256 cases of beer all night.
      If my application for employment is rejected on that basis, the trucking company will stare down a $1.2 million lawsuit for discrimination based on personal prejudices.
      In fact the trucking company will have a hard time in court with my lawyer who will proceed to question the president of the trucking company that since his car was parked for 2 night a block away from a strippers club, does it mean he went there???

      Lets face it. These photos are an invasion of privacy under existing law and since Bush and Cheney seem to think the citizen privacy can be invaded as much as possible, we should first post photos of bush's daughters and cheney's private rooms...

      What's good for goose is good for gander.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    28. Re:They should share it with everyone... by bytesex · · Score: 1

      So nice to hear you're writing again. How's that Asperger's coming along, eh ?

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    29. Re:They should share it with everyone... by KudyardRipling · · Score: 1

      There is always jury nullification. However, too many people have been scared into convicting defendants for the sake of 'homeland security'. These are browbeaten to think "OH! my home, my SUV, my kids, my wife, my 401K, my vacations, my toys, etc." That is why I have been saying all along that if anyone has a stake in the system, he/she must not be in a jury.

      --
      Submission as evidence constitutes plaintiff and/or prosecutorial misconduct.
    30. Re:They should share it with everyone... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      You also left out the huge costs involved. Each satellite costs a LOT of money. Each launch costs a lot of money. They only have so many of these birds in orbit at a time.
      Even for a military officer booking time on one of them is difficult. Your local cop will not get the opportunity to task one of these to track a specific car just because a teenager used foul language. That is even if it could track track a specific car.
      But it just isn't worth the effort to use fact when faced with mindless fear.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    31. Re:They should share it with everyone... by rdoger6424 · · Score: 1

      You are posting on the wrong site again. This is slashdot, not digg.
      Ron Paul's favorite website can be found here

      --
      "Hello 911? I just tried to toast some bread, and the toaster grew an arm and stabbed me in the face!"
    32. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Law enforcement isn't going to get much use out of this...there is too much data, and they have too few people and resources to sift through it all.

      Of course they won't. Instead, they'll simply make up some crime, claim they have spy satellite photos of it, refuse to show the photos since they're from a spy satellite and therefore fall under national security auspices (they could probably even get Bush to personally show up and testify how important it is for the government's secret stuff to remain secret). Hey, it's good enough for the government to go to war, it's good enough to toss it out in front of a jury and hope the gobble it up like fake DNA test results.

      After all, even if they can't convict or get it tossed out on appeal, they've punished the person with time off work, posting bail, paying for lawyers (you don't get a public defender if you want to appeal), and so on.

    33. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I fear for this only to be abused."

      Of course you do. That's all you ever do, you and the rest of the slashtards race to see who can most effectively and hyperbolically spout off about the vast number of ways that "technology x" will be abused, while totally (and I'm convinced, intentionally) ignoring any possibility that you're wrong.

      I'm am so fucking tired of watching every single paranoid rant posted get modded to infinity, as though repeating the same "big brother" "1984" "brave new world" nonsense.

      If you have to reference a book everyone here has read, and that's over 50 years old, then you're not saying anything new, insightful, or interesting.

      I would very much hate to be like you, living in a world of self-concocted paranoia, and fueled by the paranoiac groupthink that you purposely seek out daily, so as to receive reinforcement for your contrived fears.

      It's pathetic to watch the your same behaviors play out day after day, while others lie to you by telling you through mods that you have something worth saying.

    34. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      If law enforcement has an ax to grind with you right now, what's stopping them from shadowing you wherever you go in public? What's to stop an agent from recording video of you every time you leave your house? The only things stopping them are resources and priorities. Nothing else protects you in public. Piss somebody off badly enough, and they just might decide to stalk you. Such are the risks of being human.

      Sounds like you are proposing that law enforcement should need a warrant merely to take pictures in public? Wow, now who's the fascist?

    35. Re:They should share it with everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever hear of OBD III? The spec for it includes a two way radio.

      There is no OBD III spec. It was proposed that OBD III included a radio transmitter, but that idea has been dropped. Paranoid? No, just wrong about the facts.

    36. Re:They should share it with everyone... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest...Law enforcement isn't going to get much use out of this...there is too much data, and they have too few people and resources to sift through it all.
      Law enforcement, particularly DHS, is supposed to be protecting us from terrorists. Not pot growing operations or Mexicans crossing the border, looking for work. Satellite data isn't going to be of much use to detect the former activities. It will be useful to detect the latter, and that's the problem. If we are to believe that we are under constant threat from al-Qaida and its kin, I'd expect law enforcement to concentrate on collecting data where it is more likely to reveal terrorist activity. Not dropping a couple of grand a night buying lap dances at the local strip club to....um, ...er, .... enforce the four foot rule and keep the world safe for democracy. Yeah, that's the ticket.
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  3. Google earth already publishes all of this by viking80 · · Score: 0

    The data they have is can be found in Google earth for free. It is in a much more user friendly format than the government data as well.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
    1. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um, no.

      The spy satellites are considered by military experts to be more penetrating than civilian ones: They not only take color, as well as black-and-white photos, but can also use different parts of the light spectrum to track human activities, including, for example, traces left by chemical weapons or heat generated by people in a building....According to defense experts, (spy sats) use radar, lasers, infrared, electromagnetic data and other technologies to see through cloud cover, forest canopies and even concrete to create images or gather data.

      We're talking higher rez, multiple spectrums, and updated extremely often. Just a touch different from Google Maps.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I hear ya. This part from TFA gets me:

      "Mr. Allen, the DHS intelligence chief, says the department is cognizant of the civil-rights and privacy concerns, which is why he plans to take time before providing law-enforcement agencies with access to the data. He says DHS will have a team of lawyers to review requests for access or use of the systems.

      "This all has to be vetted through a legal process," he says. "We have to get this right because we don't want civil-rights and civil-liberties advocates to have concerns that this is being misused in ways which were not intended."

      Hmm...weren't all our wiretapping programs previously covered by laws, checks and balances? Weren't warrants needed back then for those? Oh right..times change...we don't need those any more.

      Wonder how long they do this for the satellite imaging? I can't imagine it would take long to do away with that for them either....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Heh. Yea, he's "cognizant" of them all right.

      I can't see how this won't be misused. "Where were you on the night of the 1st?" "I think I was at home..." "Well you weren't! Here are the thermal satellite images to prove it!"

      Seriously. This is a wet dream for the cops.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      "cloud cover, forest canopies and even concrete to create images or gather data."

      I find it pretty darn impossible to believe spy satellites can penetrate concrete, or even dense forest cover in the way that's implied as it simply makes no scientific sense. Nothing except neutrinos and a few gamma rays are going to penetrate a standard building (especially if it is multiple stories), but both of these would be impossible for surveillance.

      Also, how exactly can something penetrate concrete, then reflect of skin & clothes before re-penetrating concrete again? It makes no sense.

    5. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Think thermal energy.

      Sure, they cant id the people in teh living room sucking on that hooka, or see what anti American propaganda you are reading, but they can tell that people were at the crime scene, ( and then track you in daylight once you leave the building ) or that you have a hidden grow room in the northwest closet..

      So its not totally useless.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    6. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by fremsley471 · · Score: 1

      A book about the Corona spy satellite project (ISBN 1-56098-830-4) discusses how spy satellites altered the Whitehouse view of the 6-Day War. In a throwaway line, it mentions how planners reacted when there was "only daily imagery available". That was in 1967. One assumes that the daily temporal coverage, clouds permitting (and assuming we're only talking vis/ir), is far greater now.

    7. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by haX0rsaw · · Score: 0

      I am tired of the government.

    8. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      Thermal Energy = infra Red.

      There is simply no way Infra Red can be picked up after traveling through air, then through even few inches of concrete/bricks/wood/tiles then through air again, especially as a typical building has several insulating layers (e.g. ceiling, thermal insulation, cavity space, roof tiles). The signal is going to be simply non-existent.

      Large static sources of heat like "grow rooms" may show up if on the top floor of a "thin"-roofed building, although they would appear pretty identical to many utility/boiler rooms.

    9. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Go on believing that, I've seen it. It does work.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    10. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by HiggsBison · · Score: 1

      There is simply no way Infra Red can be picked up after traveling through air, then through even few inches of concrete/bricks/wood/tiles then through air again, especially as a typical building has several insulating layers (e.g. ceiling, thermal insulation, cavity space, roof tiles). The signal is going to be simply non-existent.

      Technically, it's a hidden object cheat. I'm sure Valve will be all over their sorry ass for terms of service. Then again, the feds can play pretty rough.

      --
      My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
    11. Re:Google earth already publishes all of this by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      Performing the impossible is ...impossible. Appearing to perform the impossible (particularly when multi-million dollar federal contracts are in the air) is far easier.

  4. I for one welcome our new Homeland Overlords by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    and look forward to their snappy brown uniforms and leather boots.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:I for one welcome our new Homeland Overlords by veganboyjosh · · Score: 2, Funny

      and look forward to their snappy brown uniforms and leather boots.

      That's UPS, not DHL.

      Oh, wait...

    2. Re:I for one welcome our new Homeland Overlords by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Look for the nazi emblem label ...

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:I for one welcome our new Homeland Overlords by Surt · · Score: 1

      Didn't you ever wonder why they are quite so inept at delivering packages? Because that's not their job.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:I for one welcome our new Homeland Overlords by KudyardRipling · · Score: 1

      Wake up and smell the [product of Technisches Gesellschaft fuer Schaedlingsbekaempfung] (Mr. Godwin was well aware of the evil that mars all the facets of the human condition)!

      --
      Submission as evidence constitutes plaintiff and/or prosecutorial misconduct.
  5. Transparency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "Unlike electronic eavesdropping, which is subject to legislative and some judicial control, this use of spy satellites is largely uncharted territory... [A CDT spokesman said] 'Not only is the surveillance they are contemplating intrusive and omnipresent, it's also invisible. And that's what makes this so dangerous.'""

    Someone in a book suggested dispensing with privacy and have two-way transparency. The watchers get watched with the same degree of attention they watch us.

    1. Re:Transparency by jdigriz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Invisible, my ass. http://www.satobs.org/

    2. Re:Transparency by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      No more "invisible" than NSA wiretaps. Not that I want either of them, particularly.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  6. Lame by Boydacus · · Score: 1

    Google Earth already does this, scanning the international community for law breakers like the topless sunbather in Holland. e ss-sunbathing/>

    1. Re:Lame by Boydacus · · Score: 1

      And I am a retard... can't even link.

    2. Re:Lame by Mr.+Sketch · · Score: 1

      It's okay, the nice person by the door will collect your geek card on your way out.

  7. Re:cameras in UK by Poppler · · Score: 1

    At least I dont live in England Make no mistake, it's going to happen here too. New York will be first.
    --
    What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, but I think it's your mind. -Zappa
  8. DGB by KiloByte · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Department, Commissariat (as in KGB) of Homeland Security -- what's the difference? The concept is the same, the purpose as well. There are still some details in implementation, but let's cut them some slack, they started just in 2002 so there's still much to be ironed out.

    The real question is, does the population really believe any agency of this sort has a place in a democratic country?

    --
    The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    1. Re:DGB by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Actually "K" in KGB means "committee" - that's how departments were called in the USSR :)

  9. Not Necessarily by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    it's also invisible. And that's what makes this so dangerous.

    Not if you're invisible too.

    But really folks, is invisible surveillance really that much more dangerous than the visible kind? I don't think so. If the crazies are so worried, let them run around planting signs everywhere: Never Forget The Eye in the Sky!

    Truth is, visible surveillance becomes invisible the moment it becomes ubiquitous.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Not Necessarily by mrogers · · Score: 1

      But really folks, is invisible surveillance really that much more dangerous than the visible kind? I don't think so.
      Michel Foucault said it much better than I ever could:

      Disciplinary power... is exercised through its invisibility; at the same time it imposes on those whom it subjects a principle of compulsory visibility. In discipline, it is the subjects who have to be seen. Their visibility assures the hold of the power that is exercised over them. It is the fact of being constantly seen, of being able always to be seen, that maintains the disciplined individual in his subjection.
      (Discipline and Punish, p. 187)
  10. Admissibility by andy314159pi · · Score: 1

    The main point about obtrusive surveillance technologies is whether or not data from them is admissible in court. Like if the FBI tapped your phone without a very good reason and a court order, any information they gather couldn't be used against you. The thing with surveillance like this is that any data it collects probably would be admissible if the court viewed it like any other camera data. In any event, I think that we can mostly agree that satellite surveillance should be used for military purposes only and not to look for the kids who broke your window playing baseball.

    1. Re:Admissibility by andy314159pi · · Score: 1

      err intrusive, not obtrusive ... derh

    2. Re:Admissibility by ArsonSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd be fine with it being used to find the kids that broke my window. Or the person that stole my car or broke into my house or any other real crime. What I'm afraid something like this could be used for is catching the person who buys a bag of weed, or smokes a cigarette in a nonsmoking area with nobody around or any of the other "made up" crimes.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    3. Re:Admissibility by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      What I'm afraid something like this could be used for is catching the person who buys a bag of weed, One of the things those satellites are good for is taking pictures upon which you can do a spectral analysis for the purpose of finding marijuana (or in other countries, poppy) fields.

      In countries where satellites are used in such a fashion, growers have taken to mixing their 'crop' with other crops to avoid presenting a big obvious target.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Admissibility by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      If it will be used ONLY for military purposes, why did they discuss using the data in civil cases?

      It will be used/abused for any purpose they can. You can count on it.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    5. Re:Admissibility by gobbo · · Score: 1

      In countries where satellites are used in such a fashion, growers have taken to mixing their 'crop' with other crops to avoid presenting a big obvious target.

      Anecdote: I once met a farmer from Iowa whose primary income came from interplanting cannabis with corn, in order to mask the infrared and colour signature.

      The point is, this was 20 years ago. The satellites weren't the issue then, flyovers were. The local technique (I live in a rural area famous for its alternative crop) is infrared-spotter helicopters supplied by the foreign-invaders 'DEA' and co-staffed by RCMP (that's 'mounties' to you 'murricans).

  11. The eye of Set by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well that's great! The NSA is going to open the eye in the sky for others. Remember...... never look up and always wear a hat! This might be paranoia but they are finally admitting to what has been going on for years. All those "communication" satellites really are for communication. Communicating to the gov't exactly what YOU are doing.

    1. Re:The eye of Set by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that would be the NGA.

  12. Ghost Recon already publishes all of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "We're talking higher rez, multiple spectrums, and updated extremely often. Just a touch different from Google Maps."

    Sounds like a game of Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter. Anyway I don't think they're going to give the locals too much info. Don't want foreign governments to know how good our capabilities are.

  13. Discretion? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 1

    Does the US government have any discretion when it comes to privacy? Oh well. I suppose they have their reasons. Guess it's about time to dig the tinfoil hat out of mothballs.

    --
    The game.
    1. Re:Discretion? by janrinok · · Score: 1

      American moths can eat tinfoil? I'm impressed. Have you tried a steel helmet?

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  14. Re:cameras in UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And why are you so afraid of that? Are you planning to do something illegal while walking down the public streets?

  15. Have fun with it. by kiick · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everyone should paint messages on their roof.

    "He went that way ->"
    "Are you looking at ME?"
    "Bite me"
    "Nothing to see here, move along"
    "I have a telescope and I'm looking right back atcha"
    "No WMDs here either"
    "I'm hairy and nude - you still wanna look?"
    "Area 52"

    See? Mess with their heads.

    1. Re:Have fun with it. by JamesRose · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you really want to mess with them, either paint white noise or put transluccent plastic 4 foot over your roof all the way across your premisses- either way it looks like they have a malfunction

    2. Re:Have fun with it. by anagama · · Score: 1

      Lights aimed in a dome shaped pattern skyward. Infrared, visible, and green laser.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    3. Re:Have fun with it. by Maelwryth · · Score: 1

      "Everyone should paint messages on their roof."

      668, Neighbor of the beast.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    4. Re:Have fun with it. by PPH · · Score: 1

      An enlargement of the Goatse home page graphics.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  16. Re:kdawson, your third grade teacher is crying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't see any misspelling of satellite. Whether they changed it or not, it still makes you look like an idiot.

  17. CUSTOMERS?! WHAT?! by Mark19960 · · Score: 1

    'Local' law enforcement are considered CUSTOMERS?

    What kind of fucked up thing is that?

    1. Re:CUSTOMERS?! WHAT?! by Animats · · Score: 1

      That's the terminology used in the intelligence community. The organizations that act on intelligence, and make requests for it, typically DoD units, are called "customers".

  18. Easy to stop by overshoot · · Score: 1

    Just pass the word to the Administration and its Congressional allies that those satellites are good enough to show nekkid women sunbathing.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Easy to stop by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Just pass the word to the Administration and its Congressional allies that those satellites are good enough to show nekkid women sunbathing.

      I was thinking you could tell them they can use the sats to scope out gay marriages, but they'd probably go for it soon as they can figure a way to make gay sex a crime again...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    2. Re:Easy to stop by Phisbut · · Score: 1

      Just pass the word to the Administration and its Congressional allies that those satellites are good enough to show nekkid women sunbathing.

      If the DOH satellite happens to capture pictures of kids running naked in the backyard, shouldn't they go to jail for producing kiddie porn?

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
  19. What difference does it make? by KingSkippus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did you not read this at all?

    They say that they're going to track your every move, and your response is, "Well, at least I don't live in that other place where they track my every move..."?

    Maybe in England they're saying, at least I don't have to check the undercarriage of my car for GPS devices planted by the police without a warrant. (Of course, that's old news, so we've probably all forgotten about it by now.)

    Besides, even if things are much worse in England (they're not), is that supposed to be some kind of justification for the gross invasion of privacy taking place? If our government starts deciding to randomly kill a bunch of its citizens just to demonstrate its power, would that be okay because there are other governments out there that randomly kill more of its citizens? Would you still say, "At least I don't live in that other country..." instead of actually feeling a bit of outrage?

    No wonder this country is going to hell. With rationalization like that, our government will be able to get away with pretty anything it wants to.

    1. Re:What difference does it make? by dmpyron · · Score: 1

      What he meant was, while standing at the top of the gallows, "at least they're not going to hang me in England".

      Tejas is about to get red light cameras all over the place. We already have tracking on all the toll roads (which you almost can't avoid in Austin anymore). As has already been pointed out, NYC wants to put up traffic congestion cameras.

      As far as not committing illegal acts, how would you like to have your door kicked in at 2 in the morning because you happened to be standing around outside a bank while it was being robbed?

    2. Re:What difference does it make? by doggod · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's nice to see a few people getting their underwear in a bundle over this. I only wish more people had done so last year in time to prevent Congress from passing the Mother of All Fascist Laws, S. 3930. This law gave the President -- now and in the future -- the authority to "disappear" and torture anyone at any time for no reason other than that a group of the President's hand-picked friends think it's a good thing to do. Government thugs can slip into your home in the middle of the night, take you away, and no one will ever hear from you or know of your whereabouts again. Remember Argentina in the 1980s? Now you're getting the picture.

      Amazingly, the Congressmorons even now will tell you that that isn't what the law says. But then how would they know? They never read the bill before they voted for it. They never read any bills any more before they vote for them.

      But, if you have a strong stomach you can go read the law yourself and see. At first glance it does indeed appear to be harmless, but if you wade into the fine print way back at the end you'll find little gotchas that work around the harmless part to make the law, in effect, the complete usurpation of Constitutional government.

      So the stuff about spy satellites is just, at this point, same-ol-same-ol. If there's any hope at all to return to the country to what we once had before "the terrorists" manipulated Congress to transform it into what they wanted, it's to hammer at Congress to repeal this bad law. I do this regularly, using the handy-dandy tool they have at http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=58/.

    3. Re:What difference does it make? by westlake · · Score: 1
      As far as not committing illegal acts, how would you like to have your door kicked in at 2 in the morning because you happened to be standing around outside a bank while it was being robbed?

      a witness to a bank robbery or a car bomb has more immediate things to worry about. like maybe whether he'll still be among the living tomorrow morning.

    4. Re:What difference does it make? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a witness to a bank robbery

      Witness? The camera clearly shows that you were standing around outside. Obviously you were the lookout.

  20. Sounds Good To Me: +1, Supercriminal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    To trade the financial markets with out illegal N.S.A. intercepts of confidential corporate news announcements PRIOR to their announcement.

    Criminally forever,
    W

  21. Re:kdawson, your third grade teacher is crying by Seakip18 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    c'mon this is /. if editors edited and readers read...

    well at this point I am supposed to have a handy saying. Guess I'm not the "Insightful" kind of guy.

    Anywho, this sorta data reminds me of the Google StreetView criticism. Is it really your privacy if anybody can see it? Then again, not everybody has access to a high powered, multi-spectrum satellite at their disposal.

    Wait, I'm the ambiguous metaphor guy!

    --
    import system.cool.Sig;
  22. Uncharted territory? by iamlucky13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The argument that private citizens should have equal access to this is an interesting one. Historically, satellite imagery from the NRO has been closely guarded on grounds of national security, because releasing it reveals details that might be useful to unsavory people about our satellites capabilities, orbits, and operating practices. There is of course, the additional issue of privacy. After all, not just any private citizen can have access to a wire-tap. Then again, a wiretap requires (in theory anyways) a warrant.

    This doesn't quite strike me as uncharted territory. A satellite image is not fundamentally much different from an aerial photo (most people don't seem to realize that the majority of high resolution imagery on Google Earth comes from USGS camera-equipped aircraft). In fact, aircraft usually have the advantage of better resolution, the ability to schedule observations much more conveniently, and longer loiter times (you can't look at the same target for very long moving at 17,500 mph). The main drawbacks are they don't scan as large of areas, and your target can more easily see them, although it's hard to be sure if a plane is watching you or just doing flight training. Oh, and not many airplanes can fligh high enough to avoid an SA-2.

    Actually, the Wall Street Journal author seems to have done a good job covering each of these issues in the article.

    Regarding two-way transparency, if someone is being underhanded in exploiting that, it once again becomes unbalanced unless you have the resources to identify and address that problem. Net result: someone is still screwing with you, but you have less privacy.

    Besides, we theoretically have checks and balances built into the system, but that doesn't stop people from using the system for their own purposes. If the system isn't perfect as is, I highly doubt it will improve by removing all restrictions on either side.

  23. They should share it with everyone...pervasive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So how's this tool in your scenario any different than the GPS phone, or the tattletale car?

    "Everyone breaks the law"

    Dead people don't.

    1. Re:They should share it with everyone...pervasive. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      "Everyone breaks the law"

      Dead people don't.


      They do if you don't bury them properly, or bury them in your back yard.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  24. How to respond to the sat photos by jimwelch · · Score: 1

    1. Have 50 naked people spell out a "message"
        a) very near the site of a probable use.
        b) example: political conventions and protest site.

    2. artwork on the ground, plastic warning tape (do-no-cross) is quick, cheap, easy to remove.

    3. etc.

    --
    Never trust a man wearing a coat and tie!
  25. Go buy satellite blinding lasers from China? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go buy satellite blinding lasers from China?

  26. Judas Priest was 25 years ahead of its time. by Tackhead · · Score: 2, Interesting
    > But really folks, is invisible surveillance really that much more dangerous than the visible kind? I don't think so. If the crazies are so worried, let them run around planting signs everywhere: Never Forget The Eye in the Sky!

    Reminds me of a little song I heard when I was growing up. Once upon a time, today's world would have been looked upon as the demented fantasy of a heavy metal band.

    Up here in space,
    I'm looking down on you.
    My lasers trace
    Everything you do.
    You think you've private lives, think nothing of the kind!
    There is no true escape, I'm watching all the time!

    (CHORUS):
    I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam!
    I am perpetual, I keep the country clean!
    I'm elected, electric spy...
    I'm protected, electric eye...

    Always in focus,
    You can't feel my stare,
    I zoom into you,
    You don't know I'm there
    I take a pride in probing all your secret moves,
    My tearless retina takes pictures that can prove...

    (CHORUS)

    Electric eye (in the sky)
    Feel my stare (always there)
    There's nothing you can do about it! Develop and expose!
    I feed upon your every thought, and so my power grows!

    (CHORUS)

    I'm elected, electric spy
    I'm protected, electric eye
    I'm elected, electric spy
    I'm elected
    Protective,
    Detective,
    Electric
    Eye!

    - Judas Priest, Electric Eye, 1982.

    Not bad. Pretty much got everything right. "Keeping the country clean" as the excuse for the power grab. "Elected. Protective. Detective." as the correct chronological order in which to implement it.

    (I'm going to try and ignore the video for Turbo Lover and the suspicious resemblance to the cyborg-on-a-motorcycle sequence from Terminator 2. He wound up getting elected as Governor, and you'd think that if a hair metal band really had come from the future, they'd have at least hinted at the Governator in a backwards-masked portion of the track... There's such a thing as taking pop culture too seriously, after all.)

    1. Re:Judas Priest was 25 years ahead of its time. by Clockwork+Apple · · Score: 1

      Dude, Priest was not a hair metal band check Sad Wings of Destiny if you think otherwise. They were a primary metal band from when the term heavy metal still meant you werent getting played on the radio and your fans didnt have the cash to buy your records. They existed through the "hair metal" years and were pressed by their record company into doing the lame hairband look, and yes, even making a hair metal album. They survived hair metal, they were not glam band, they acted like one for a few years, that's all.

      I'll assume you know Halford is with the band again.

      And kudos for the choice referance, right on the money.

      --
      "Doctor, it's not the voices I hear in MY head, but the voices I hear in YOUR head that really frighten me."
    2. Re:Judas Priest was 25 years ahead of its time. by Phisbut · · Score: 1

      Up here in space,
      I'm looking down on you.
      My lasers trace
      Everything you do.

      Good luck with that. My tinfoil hat will reflect your laser back to you, and your satellite will explode... Mwahaha!

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
  27. DGB-An unchanging world. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Department, Commissariat (as in KGB) of Homeland Security -- what's the difference?"

    Several years of University schooling would help you with that.

    "The real question is, does the population really believe any agency of this sort has a place in a democratic country?"

    Why don't you ask Usama bin Laden?

  28. Civil Cases too? by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Great. Will they be reading what is on the screen of your ipod and send you a demand for proof of purchase of the song?

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  29. Re:cameras in UK by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    not just there, they just put up another one on the main drag of Capitol Hill in Seattle.

    That's not in England. It's here.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  30. They need to reread the 4th amendment by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Insightful
    How is this different from a LANDSAT photo?

    One word: Resolution. When one pixel might or might not represent a huge boulder, that's one thing. When it represents darker pigment on the tip of your left nipple, that's something else entirely.

    Cessna@1000 or telephoto lens beats out any spy satellite.

    Ever hear of adaptive optics? Multiple aperture arrays? Interferometry? The amount of money and technology available to the US government moves the bar right out of your reach.

    Think of it this way: it's a civilian benefit from a military budget. How cool is that?

    No, think of it this way: It's some person half a continent away looking into your yard despite your privacy fence, watching your significant other sunbathe, nude. Without a warrant, an invitation, or anything remotely resembling a good reason.

    What this means is that in order to attempt to be secure from unreasonable search (again, see the 4th amendment) from individuals in the employ of an invasive and out of control government, fences are no longer going to be sufficient. Now we're going to have to roof our properties too.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:They need to reread the 4th amendment by fosterNutrition · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree completely, but I think you missed one huge point:

      How is it different from some guy with a telephoto on a hill? Well, does this guy have petabytes of storage available to keep track of everything he ever sees? Does he stay on the hill 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year? Does his field of vision from the top of the hill extend across the whole country, at ultra-high resolution? Does he have massive computational and personnel resources available in order to actually analyse all (or all the parts he chooses) of what he sees? Does he have the power to access information that you would normally consider safe from those you choose not to divulge it to (e.g. criminal records, passport/immigration/travel records, financial details, etc)?

      Depending on the answers to those questions, there may be no difference at all. But there may also be an enormous and life-altering difference, depending on who this guy is, and with whom he shares what he sees. Every time you give something, you lose something; the question is whether it is a justifiable and acceptable loss. Any time you give anyone power over information about you, you lose a little privacy, a little anonymity, and a little liberty. It's hard to get it back.

    2. Re:They need to reread the 4th amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is it different from some guy with a telephoto on a hill? Well, does this guy have petabytes of storage available to keep track of everything he ever sees? Does he stay on the hill 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year? Does his field of vision from the top of the hill extend across the whole country, at ultra-high resolution? Does he have massive computational and personnel resources available in order to actually analyse all (or all the parts he chooses) of what he sees? Does he have the power to access information that you would normally consider safe from those you choose not to divulge it to (e.g. criminal records, passport/immigration/travel records, financial details, etc)? Yes.
  31. This is actualy a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's information sharing and possibly the only thing DHS has done right. The point is that if there is a problem somewhere and I know about it, then I have a responsibility to inform the people who *should* know about it rather than sit on it and worry about inter-agency regulations and red tape.

    In regards to Domestic Spying, that is irrelevant to this, and should be addressed separately. I personally feel that no way in hell should they be able to spy on the US without a warrant. Executive order 12333 happens to agree (section 2.3 Paragraph B)

    "Collection within the United States of foreign intelligence not otherwise obtainable shall be undertaken by the FBI or, when significant foreign intelligence is sought, by other authorized agencies of the Intelligence Community, provided that no foreign intelligence collection by such agencies may be undertaken for the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons;"

    In all honesty, this information sharing is actually *beneficial* to civil liberties because if there is warrantless and illegal spying going on the public will find out about it much more readily and actually be able to address it.

  32. Duh by NEOtaku17 · · Score: 1

    Yes and LE are customers of Glock and Taser International and GM. News flash! LE doesn't make all their own equipment! You wouldn't like it if they did. It would be the worst quality most expensive shit you have ever seen if they did.

  33. Daily diet of libtard tinfoil by libtardslasher · · Score: 0

    MMmmmm..... eat up, slashtards... your being spoonfed dose after dose of liberal tinfoil. Your life is a paranoid delusion.

  34. Not really anything new. by Sangui5 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Law enforcement can't just make arbitrary searches; that's what the fourth amendment is about. If you hold a reasonable expectation of privacy, then fourth amendment rights apply, even in the face of advancing technology. The use of infrared cameras to look for marijuana grow lights is illegal without a warrant, for example. Similarly, even though it is feasible for there to be a microphone planted inside a phone booth, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy inside phone booth. So, LEOs need to get a warrant before they can bug a phone booth.

    Also, there are some traditional privacy rights which can interact in interesting ways. For instance, you have the same privacy rights in the area immediately around a house (the curtailage) as you would inside. The curtailage includes any areas under a roofing overhang, and any areas generally bounded by fences, hedges, and other physical obstructions which would prevent a ground-level observer from peeking in. So, even though your back yard is open to the sky, both aerial photography or satellite imagery requires a warrant. Viewing from a nearby tall hill doesn't.

    Law enforcement can already use commercial satellite imagery (within 4th amendment limits), or their own aerial overflights (again, within limits) to get images just as readily as they could from the US government. For the scary things people are worried about, they can already do them if they are willing to break the law themselves. Using military satellites would be just as illegal.

    1. Re:Not really anything new. by Sangui5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Bad form to reply to myself, but here's links to relevant SCOTUS cases. Overall, the tone is about when one has a reasonable expectation of privacy.

      Note that the links may require registration (findlaw seems to be a little random about that). You can also just google the case names.

      SILVERMAN v. UNITED STATES, 365 U.S. 505 (1961)
      ----------
      Ruling that using a "spike mike" to push against adjoining wall to listen in was illegal. The ruling makes a big deal that nobody expects a spike mike to be used, and that the people who were being listened to had a reasonable expectation of privacy.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?c ourt=US&vol=365&invol=505

      KATZ v. UNITED STATES, 389 U.S. 347 (1967)
      ----------
      Ruling that bugging a public phone booth without a warrant was illegal. The ruling makes a big deal that although the phone booth was transparent, it still blocks sound, and it was for the purpose of not being overhead that one enters a phone booth. Hence, there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?c ourt=US&vol=389&invol=347

      DOW CHEMICAL CO. v. UNITED STATES, 476 U.S. 227 (1986)
      ----------
      Ruling that a 2000 acre industrial site is not like the curtilage of a house, but is more like an open field, so using commercially available aerial photography is not illegal. The ruling considers that since anybody could overfly it isn't a big deal, and that the area is particularly large and open so one really can't expect privacy. The ruling briefly mentions that if advanced satellites were used, the search could have been illegal.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?c ourt=us&vol=476&invol=227

      CALIFORNIA v. CIRAOLO, 476 U.S. 207 (1986)
      ----------
      Ruling that naked eye observation from 1000 ft in an airplane in public airspace is not illegal. The ruling considers that anybody could fly over at 1000 ft, and that overflights aren't unusual, hence there shouldn't be an expectation of privacy.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?n avby=search&court=US&case=/us/476/207.html

      FLORIDA v. RILEY, 488 U.S. 445 (1989)
      ----------
      Ruling that naked eye observation from 400 ft in a helicopter in public airspace is not illegal. The ruling seems to make a big deal that nobody mentioned that 400ft helicopter overflights are unusual, and leaves open the question that if somebody did bring evidence that they were unusual, that the search may have been deemed illegal. However, given that anybody could have flown a helicopter at 400ft, it is legal.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?n avby=search&court=US&case=/us/488/445.html

    2. Re:Not really anything new. by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Didn't you hear? The bill of rights is so last-administration these days....

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    3. Re:Not really anything new. by JM78 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Law enforcement can't just make arbitrary searches...

      Arguing legality only works when:

      a: the current laws are upheld by those who are in power.
      b: illegal actions taken by those in power are made public

      The problem with this is that we are increasingly seeing the erosion of our civil liberties over time. Using the fourth amendment argument doesn't work when we live with a government who can legally declare any American citizen an 'enemy combatant' and incarcerate them indefinitely without declaration of their crimes or due process and uses, largely publicly funded, infrastructure (AT&T) for domestic wiretapping.

      IMHO, to claim that law enforcement can't because we're American and its been written on parchment is as naive as one can possibly be in the present world.

      --
      I am Jack's smirking revenge.
  35. Who's First? by mencomenco · · Score: 1, Insightful

    We know they're watching Muslims & registered Democrats. Will Blacks, college grads and Republicans be next?

    Or are they already watching Republicans (just to keep them in line) and moving towards watching Muslims, Dems, Blacks & Grads?

    As an aside, how come nobody in those Congressional oversight hearings ever asks "are you monitoring/wiretapping/e-tapping/watching me or my staff or my colleagues?"

    Maybe they already know the answer.

  36. The paparazzi will love this... by xednieht · · Score: 1

    Speaking of which anyone know the whereabouts of the Saint formerly known as Paris?

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
  37. Am I the only one? by HangingChad · · Score: 1

    Who is damn sick and tired of being spied on by their own government?

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  38. Just the daily bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to the YAABSP (Yet Another Anti-Bush Slashdot Posting) automatic post submission system.

    Please choose one of the following templates for your Premier Bush news posting:
    a) President Bush eats babies and sleeps with everyone's wives simultaneously .
    b) President Bush is blowing up New Orleans infrastructure, polluting the environment, melting the ice caps and catching dolphins in tuna nets.
    c) President Bush is cheating on his wife with interns while chatting with Senators on the phone... er, wait, don't choose this one.
    d) President Bush paid SCO to sue IBM regarding illegal Unix code in Linux.

    Blah, blah, blah. Stop with the fucking political bullshit and stick to the pseudo-science articles.

  39. all I have to say is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whenever you go outside,
    look up and smile!

  40. This isn't "24" by E++99 · · Score: 1

    Some of the ideas of what this technology would be doing are pretty off-the-wall. This isn't "24"... think more of "Patriot Games." These are satellites that have to be pointed at a single target, and have the ability to track that piece of land, and can then give real-time images in either visible light or different infra-red spectra for night time and for heat detection, along with laser and radar technology for penetrating structures. Depending on where the target is, they sometimes even have to adjust the orbit to get a decent shot. I don't know how many sats there are, but this is obviously not something for community use. There's got to be a queue of agencies with various priorities to decide what they get to point the suckers at. If you think they're going to be looking for you smoking pot in your back yard, just extend the tin foil down into a wide bell shape, and you'll be covered.

  41. did anyone else... by Sfing_ter · · Score: 1

    read that as Dead Hooker Storage? I thought damn, someone has an array!!! An array of Dead Hooker Storage, would that be a plethora?

    --
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
  42. The message here to criminals, terrorists etc. is: by adnonsense · · Score: 1

    Wait for a cloudy day before you do your Bad Stuff.

  43. Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by Degrees · · Score: 1
    It should be pointed out that satellites come in several forms and with different orbits. Some don't gather much detail, but can watch a large area for a long time. If you've read enough Tom Clancy novels, you know that these types of satellites are terrific for passively recording movement of vehicles and (specks that are people), and running the tape backward after an event to see where the perpetrators originated from. Then you run the tape forward and catch the perp's.

    Of course, once you've run the tape back to find where the perp's live, you know which telephone recordings to scan.... But there's no domestic telephone recording going on, right?

    Another type of satellite has super magnification, but a narrow field of view. These need to be targeted (which is expensive), but yes, they can tell if you need a haircut or not. These are the ones that cannot hover over an area. But if the goal is to snap a photo of you holding evidence (or being in the presence of the wrong people), and DHS has an idea of when to monitor you, it is possible. Not likely, but absolutely possible.

    This shouldn't be all that worrisome, until DOD+DHS announces a plan to put up one satellite a week, forever. Go for that price-break on the large quantity discounts, you see.

    Frankly, even if you don't like it, too bad for you. Consider the Hans Reiser case: take the wide field view tape, and follow his car. If it doesn't show him driving off to any remote areas the day of the murder, maybe the tape should be played back from his wife's house to see if someone else showed up there that day, then follow them.

    In either case, having evidence of who dumped the body will convict murderers. Even if you don't like spying by DHS, DHS isn't going to give it up without a fight.

    --
    "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    1. Re:Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you've read enough Tom Clancy novels, you know that these types of satellites are terrific for passively recording movement of vehicles and (specks that are people), and running the tape backward after an event to see where the perpetrators originated from. Then you run the tape forward and catch the perp's.

      There's all manner of things in Tom Clancy novels - some of them are even true. This particular one isn't, because satellites aren't over one area long enough to do so. (Only geosync birds are - and they have a resolution measured in meters. Not nearly good enough for tracking individual vehicles.)
       
       

      Another type of satellite has super magnification, but a narrow field of view. These need to be targeted (which is expensive), but yes, they can tell if you need a haircut or not. These are the ones that cannot hover over an area.

      No satellite has that kind of resolution - period. To do that, you need a resolution on the millimeter scale - which is at least two orders of magnitude greater than is physically possible. (I.E. in the realm of 'science fiction' rather than in the realm of 'well, maybe they can do it'.) No satellite can hover over an area except for geosync birds - see above.
       
       

      But if the goal is to snap a photo of you holding evidence (or being in the presence of the wrong people), and DHS has an idea of when to monitor you, it is possible. Not likely, but absolutely possible.

      Suuure it's possible - if your name is Jack Ryan and you are a character in a Tom Clancy novel. Otherwise, not.
       
      Like the OP, you appear to have gotten your impression of what spy birds can do from Hollywood and tinfoil hat websites.
    2. Re:Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by Degrees · · Score: 1
      Actually, I got my info from a co-worker who saw a photo printed from one of the high-resolution military satellites. I've never known him to be a liar, so I trust that when he says he saw a photo that resolved printing on a one centimeter object, that indeed it is for real.

      In TFA they mentioned that in the past, the DOD would sometimes provide info to the Feds. I recall that after the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was mentioned on the radio that one of the perps was caught because he traveled 200 miles away from the bombing the fastest of anyone else. How, in 1995, would you measure who drove 70 miles an hour, for over 200 miles, specifically away from Oklahoma City directly after the bombing?

      --
      "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    3. Re:Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Your co-worker may have been mistaken as to where that photo came from. A UAV could take that picture, but you couldn't get a picture like that from orbit even if you turned Hubble around.

      I don't recall that statement about catching one of the Oklahoma City bombers by watching him run away, but I could see the radio station being misinformed (either deliberately or accidentally). Not to tar them all with the same brush, but Slashdot remembers a radio station continuing actions that were ultimately lethal even after being warned by someone in the know. It's not hard to imagine a radio station getting something wrong.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    4. Re:Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Actually, I got my info from a co-worker who saw a photo printed from one of the high-resolution military satellites. I've never known him to be a liar, so I trust that when he says he saw a photo that resolved printing on a one centimeter object, that indeed it is for real.

      He might not be a liar - but he is (at a minimum) exaggerating somewhat, or misunderstood what he saw.
       
       

      In TFA they mentioned that in the past, the DOD would sometimes provide info to the Feds. I recall that after the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was mentioned on the radio that one of the perps was caught because he traveled 200 miles away from the bombing the fastest of anyone else. How, in 1995, would you measure who drove 70 miles an hour, for over 200 miles, specifically away from Oklahoma City directly after the bombing?

      All manner of things get misreported in the press, and misremembered years later. (I've done it myself.) Doing a little research on the web finds no mention of such an incident - and the details of McVeigh's and Nichols' capture match what I remember. It's possible, nay probable, that they misreported details of McVeigh's arrest (he was headed away from OKC and picked up for not having the proper license plate).
       
      If such a thing was a minor detail - it's possible that they noted the speed (after their capture) they same way my dad once knew I'd sped from Charleston to home, he knew what time I left and what time I arrived... and did the math. (This was in 1984.)
    5. Re:Two types of satellites - wide view and narrow by mfrank · · Score: 1

      The cop who pulled over McVeigh did it because he was driving without licensce plates. He was an experienced cop, felt that something was fishy, and found an illegal weapon in the car. McVeigh cooled his heels in an Oklahoma jail for a few days before they even realized he was the guy (I believe they got the VIN for the U-Haul that blew up and traced it to him).

      They didn't bust him with satellites. And your buddy was goofing on you.

  44. FBI Files and VAAPCON by Iowan41 · · Score: 1

    The Democrats did this the last time they held power (and she-who-must-not-be-named is running for a third term) without the 'structure' in place to authorize such things as taking the FBI files on all leading Republicans and using them for blackmail, etc., spying on all pro-life Christians, including the Cardinal of New York, not to mention the Waco pogrom, etc., Imagine what they'll do with -this-.

  45. Satellites are not that good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have been watching too many movies. I worked with this stuff and referencing "Patriot Games" makes anyone in the know laugh (or even better that dubmassed movie that has them tracking WIl Smith in realtime inside a firken building). I was even at a classified brief where they made a joke of it: "Can we do stuff like I saw on Patriot Games? Yes, if you can get my a camera and a crane". They shot that stuff from a crane and a helicopter, solarized the negative image to make it look like "infrared". No satellite we have can do imagery like that real-time. Even at 0.3 meter resolution you will not get details like that. To get that, you need surveilleance by air breathing assets - i.e. UAVs, guys with cameras, etc.

    Also, the surveillance will primarily be aimed at border areas OUTSIDE the US.

    They have been using Sat images domestically for years: how do you think the Forest Service gets where the edges of a fire are?

    They cannot "track" individuals in real time with satellites - there simply are not enough assets to do this.

    And finally, How many satellites do you think are up there doing elint and imagery collection? Go to FAS.org, and add up the suspected NSA/NRO launches. The count is probably less than 2 dozen. Given that most of them are in orbits to maximize their time over China, Afghanistan and Iraq, they probably are not at good angles to see much of the US - do the math. THen also figure its massively expesnive to operate those things - you have to have ground processing and all kinds of other stuff - ask anyone using the TV satellite systems, a bg chunk of cash is when the things are active, and you have to pay to ge the ground systems going. Also, I bet they use the "over the us" for a main window as well. A little bit of though, instead of hysterics, goes a long way if you are in the know.

    Take the tinfoil hats off, and read up - and stop trusting Hollywood to give you an accurate accounting of ANYTHING.

    1. Re:Satellites are not that good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want the kids here to actually stop, gather facts and reson, instead of knee-jerk leftist foaming at the mouth with all kinds of fantasy scenarios based oof of the movies? You must be new here.

      Then again, KDawson, /.'s very own DailyKos editor-troll promoted this article, so what do you expect? KDawson is about as useful for objectivity as is Rush Limbaugh. KDawson is both hysterical and ignorant.

    2. Re:Satellites are not that good by EQ · · Score: 1

      "You have been watching too many movies. I worked with this stuff and referencing "Patriot Games" makes anyone in the know laugh (or even better that dubmassed movie that has them tracking WIl Smith in realtime inside a firken building. I was even at a classified brief where they made a joke of it: "Can we do stuff like I saw on Patriot Games? Yes, if you can get my a camera and a crane"."

      Let me guess where that brief was - a certain 3 letter agency at Ft Meade MD? Heh.

      They used that same anecdote when my wife did her brief a long time ago, and when I did mine going back into classified work after 9/11. I bet my son hears it when he gets his indoctrination brief going in there.

      --
      Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
  46. "customers"?? by so+many+toms+(me+too · · Score: 1

    shouldn't they be sharing with other government agencies? concerning...

  47. worth the cost by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

    Not only is the surveillance they are contemplating intrusive and omnipresent, it's also invisible. And that's what makes this so dangerous.

    It's also a useful tool, especially in regard to securing the border. I like having a system in place to keep track of who goes in and out of the country -- it's only a problem when the system itself is misused; inherently it's a good idea, and serves it's function (I actually know of a guy who deserted the army overseas, after stealing sensitive info, and months later was then stupid enough to take a flight that had a brief layover in the U.S. -- his passport was flagged, and they arrested him right there).

    In any case, if the border patrol isn't using this technology already, using it would make it next to impossible to sneak across.

    Just remember, kids, all you need to avoid incriminating yourself to a spy satellite is a roof over your head!

    So don't grow pot in your backyard or anything, they might check for that now.

  48. Re:cameras in UK by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1

    Has nothing do to with doing something wrong, at all, in any way. Stop saying it.

  49. Where was a white Ford Bronco parked? by PDX · · Score: 1

    Where was a white Ford Bronco parked the same night OJ cut himself? Do the Chinese have overflights of Los Angles on the night in question? Even if you have a photo double jepordy still applies, except in England. The queen can put anybody to death on a whim. Makes you appreciate our system even when there are some things wrong with it. Maybe he really can help find the REAL killer.

  50. Re:cameras in UK by leenks · · Score: 1

    I take it that there are no security cameras in private establishments in the US then? Actually, I know that to be false because I counted as many, if not more, than I would expect in the UK on my last visits to Baltimore, Columbia, and DC. Pretty much every business in the UK that deals with cash has at least one CCTV camera up, and I imagine it must be similar in the USA.

    Also, a huge number of the cameras in the UK are on our highways. These are immensely useful for reporting traffic incidents to local/national radio and the highways agency travel website which then provides data to companies such as TomTom so that SatNav devices can route around problems. I find it immensely useful. Yes, those cameras also get used during police pursuits or other crimes, such as the recent M40 shooting, but as a law abiding citizen, what difference does it make?

  51. Get real by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

    Just a quick reality check.

    tracking border crossers in real time, sites dedicated to assembling satellite photos of crimes in progress

    I think you've watched Enemy of the State maybe one too many times.

    Surveillance satellites are not geo-synchronous, so they cannot observe in what most of us consider real-time. "Real-time" surveillance is not like watching a color movie of what's going on on the ground. It is more like analyzing black and white snapshots of what is on the ground as the satellite(s) pass over a given area.

    Doing effective analysis requires a lot of resources, knowledge and experience that the typical person just doesn't have.

    --
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  52. Re:cameras in UK by aldousd666 · · Score: 1

    Don't worry this isn't like hollywood where they can track your every move. First of all these satellites are only a couple of hundred miles up, so they aren't stationary. They can barely make out anything at the person sized level, and the images are in black and white. If you specifically are a target, and they invest the energy in tracking you directly, they still can only get 4 minutes worth of sparse STILL (not video) images of you every 90 - 120 minutes. It's not like they're reading the radio dial or anything, or nosing in the books you're reading. Honestly with today's satellite technology, the only real thing they can do is compare what something looks like this week with what it looked like last week. It also doesn't capture images unless they specifically target the images. They can specifically target general areas and see for example, if a large contingent of troops are moving in a warzone, or if there is a blockage to an escape route after an earthquake. They cannot watch you in realtime and video tape your sexual exploits with that hooker you've been trying to hide in your car. Haha.

    Although that is how it is now, but I suppose it's possible that a next generation of satellites could possibly do those things, at least in small bursts, so it's important to make sure the law keeps up with the technology, but right now, there isn't much in the 'offensive' that satellites can give the government, just mostly information that can be used for post-facto defensive strategy or in near-term decision making, like choosing evacuation routes after say.. a terrorist drops a nuke on someone.

    --
    Speak for yourself.
  53. Mod Parent Up -- He knows what he's talking about. by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    My first programming job was with a company that made software to process satellite and aerial photography. This person knows what he's talking about. The kind of satellites that DHS is likely to allow civilian law enforcement to look at do not have that kind of resolution at all.

    Now, I never worked with classified data, but I have serious doubts over what military satellites are capable of based on conversations with coworkers. Our parent company also made top of the line aerial sensors, and our best sensor got 5 cm resolution at an altitude of 3 km. I think the lowest satellite orbits are 160 km, and so figuring out what one of the best commercial sensors could do at an altitude over 50X as high is an exercise left to the reader ('cause I'm lazy).

    (PS: Our parent company was not American and had no reason to hold back technology for military use only, so put that conspiracy angle aside right now.)

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  54. Hyperspectral satellites aren't THAT good. by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    We're talking higher rez, multiple spectrums, and updated extremely often. Just a touch different from Google Maps.

    Meh. There's a direct tradeoff between the number of bands of color that you can sense and the resolution you can resolve. Panchromatic satellites have significantly better resolution than multispectral satellites which have better resolution than hyperspectral satellites. This is why nearly every color satellite has different resolutions for black & white and color images that it can take.

    And trust me when I say that the best hyperspectral satellites (the kinds that resolve enough different wavelengths of light per pixel to do the kind of spectral analysis needed to detect "traces left by chemical weapons") have absolutely terrible resolution. For example, AVIRIS, a 224 band sensor, gets a resolution of about 20 meters per pixel. The Orbview-4 (aka Warfighter-1) probe that was launched for the Air Force in 2001 was going to be one of the best with a 1m panchromatic resolution and an 8m hyperspectral resolution, but it was destroyed in a launch failure. If you want high-quality hyperspectral data, you take it from a plane.

    So anyway, much of what they talk about in this article is fantastic scare-mongering.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  55. He was still breaking the law by SIIHP · · Score: 1

    "Your son happens to surpass the speed limit & the officer promptly issues a speeding ticket ... and another ... and another."

    So, you're trying to claim that enforcing the law your son broke is an abuse?

    --
    I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
  56. Resolution and Evidence by morcheeba · · Score: 1

    When you start using data from spy satellites, it's unlikely that a defendant will be able to see the evidence against them. The capabilities and resolution of spy satellite photos is classified, so all most people will see is down-graded view. Even military commanders in the field get an interpretation -- they ask about particular features of a potential target, and then a photo analyst draws them a picture describing the photo. That way, the picture (and the satellite's capability) can't fall in to enemy hands.

    This is good and bad -- good as in that police will need additional evidence to use this in individual prosecutions, and bad in that the secrecy surrounding spy photos could be used to manipulate the legal system ("trust us, Judge").

    1. Re:Resolution and Evidence by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      There's no way in hell they'd share classified IMINT with Barney Fife. Nobody in the FBI, DHS or INS holds TS-SCI/TK clearance.

      Even military commanders in the field get an interpretation

      Indeed. Replace "military commanders" with "law enforcement agents". Any permissible evidence would have to be downgraded to the point that it was unclassified, or FOUO at the very least. Considering where the *good* IMINT comes from, it would take a very cold day in a hot place before that happened.

  57. Re:cameras in UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What difference you ask. You say you are a law abiding citizen, yet if you drive the highways I'm sure you've broken the law on occasion. There is a vast difference between a private enterprise having cctv and a government surveillance network spanning the country's highways. Think about the children, seriously, and how every movement they make in their life is likely to be recorded, then go reread 1984 and tell me you have no problem with this.

  58. Re:cameras in UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What world do you live in? Satellite pictures have been able to read the documents in your hands for YEARS!

  59. It's not a big deal by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

    Usually I'm a huge privacy & security zealot, but the sharing of remote sensing data doesn't bother me. Here's why: Public photography is legal.

    Remote sensing data (i.e. visual imagery, radar, infrared, SIGINT, gravity measurements, spectroscopy, whever else you can think of...) are the types of data that anyone can freely collect on their own however they please. How, you might ask? Walk outside. Snap a picture with the camera in your cell phone. Turn on a radio. Measure the surface temperature of a house with a thermal imaging camera. Now take all that data and share it with people. Or sell it. No problem. It's all legal, because public photography is protected.

    Should it be wrong to take the same kind of measurements from a vehicle in low earth orbit? Hell no. You can jump in an airplane and take pictures of your home town, complete with interesting aerial views of your neighbor's backyard. It's legal. You can share, sell or license those pics however you like. Public photography is protected.

  60. you know why you didn't see that sign? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With improved satellite imagery, hopefully we'll be able to check for the "DEAD N----- STORAGE" sign before coming to your house ;)

  61. Ask them yourself ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do the Chinese have overflights of Los Angles

    Ask them yourself at http//www.airchina.com.cn/en/index.jsp.

  62. Give them an inch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll take a mile. Specifically, if limited access (say, to border areas) is given, it will be hacked and some determined someones will get full access.

    And can you say FOIA?