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The US Rural Broadband Crisis

Ian Lamont writes "Rural US residents don't have the same kind of access to broadband services as those who live in urban or suburban areas. According to the federal government, just 17% of rural U.S. households subscribe to broadband service. But the problem is more than a conflict between Wall Street and small-town residents wanting to surf the 'Net or play Warcraft — the lack of broadband access prevents many businesses from growing and diversifying rural economies, as it's expensive or impossible to get broadband. From the article: 'Soon after moving to Gilsum, N.H. (population 811), [Kim] Rossey learned that he couldn't get broadband to support his Web programming business, TooCoolWebs. DSL wasn't available, and the local cable service provider wasn't interested in extending the cabling for its broadband service the three-tenths of a mile required to reach Rossey's house — even if he paid the full $7,000 cost. Rossey ended up signing a two-year, $450-per-month contract for a T1 line that delivers 1.44Mbit/sec. of bandwidth. He pays 10 times more than the cable provider would have charged and receives one quarter of the bandwidth.' The author also notes that larger businesses are being crimped, from a national call center to a national retailer which claims 17% of its store locations can't get broadband."

101 of 586 comments (clear)

  1. Ounce of Prevention by everphilski · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sucks, but seriously, do a little research before you move, if your business depends on it. Just reeks of irresponsibility. (Not to say not having broadband at 100% penetration doesn't suck, but I'm not gonna cry a river cause you didn't do your research ahead of time ... )

    1. Re:Ounce of Prevention by glop · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have moderation points at the moment and thought of rating you as a troll. But I thought better of it and will just state a few points that you seem to have missed :
        1) the guy has solved the problem by shelling some money.
        2) the money he is paying is only 100$ more than my commute costs. And I guess his house is much bigger and cheaper than anything I could find in NY. So he probably was wise to pay that price.
        3) he offered to pay all the connnection costs for the cable company and they refused.

      So, I really can relate to this guy and think he really is the good guy here.

    2. Re:Ounce of Prevention by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well... a couple of things. First, most ISPs won't actually give you a real map of where there coverage is. It's really sketchy. Sometimes you can't even tell until you go to order the service. I remember doing a check a few years ago where I entered my address into Verizon's online thing, and it said I could get DSL. Then I tried ordering it, and they said that the website was wrong.

      Second, if you RTFA (or even the summary), the guy bought a house three-tenths of a mile outside the broadband coverage. So basically that means that they guy down the street could get broadband and he couldn't. It's pretty understandable why he wouldn't catch this ahead of time.

    3. Re:Ounce of Prevention by mrzaph0d · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yep, i used to get ads in the mail and on my door at an apartment i lived in that advertised DSL was now available in my area. kept getting them for about 3 years. the first year i got one, i signed up and had an appointment for the install, took the day off and found out the day of the installation that it *wasn't* available in my neighborhood. and after than i still kept getting ads for it, specifically targeted to me. i mean, if they mail me a letter, i'm pretty sure they have my address.

      --
      this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
    4. Re:Ounce of Prevention by walt-sjc · · Score: 5, Informative

      I agree, but also want to point out some other facts here...

      Now he has a T1 so he can get plenty of static IP's without massive surcharges, he has upstream bandwidth that is better than most people can get outside of FIOS, He won't run into the "we will cut you off for exceeding our unpublished and secret cap" problem, and he has an SLA on the circuit. He uses the internet for his business, and the internet IS his business. A T1 is quite reasonable. Unless he is underpricing himself, he is probably making at LEAST $10K / month off that $500 T1.

      Just to keep things in perspective...

    5. Re:Ounce of Prevention by c_forq · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The key is should of. From my experience living in a rural area I can almost guarantee if/when he called the ISP a receptionist stated "Of course we offer internet packages alongside our TV offerings". Though unlikely, it is possible the receptionist would look at a coverage map, see the address is pretty close to where they have some cable, and state "It looks like we could probably have you hooked up". But unfortunately the receptionist is not the company, and has no input on where cables get extended to. In my experience it takes about a month to figure out why you can't get what you want to get from rural ISPs.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    6. Re:Ounce of Prevention by i.r.id10t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup, before I closed on my house (bought in early 2000) I took a laptop out and tested the phone lines to see if 56k was possible... (it wasn't but a drunk destroyed the Big Box down the road and I had 56k for a few weeks after that, at which point DSL was available... who said drunk drivers aren't good for *anything*)

      Don't think it would've affected my closing, but I may have kept looking for just a bit longer.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    7. Re:Ounce of Prevention by schnell · · Score: 3, Informative

      In my experience it takes about a month to figure out why you can't get what you want to get from rural ISPs.

      What I'm surprised by here is that it seems like everybody thinks that broadband = cable or DSL (or, God help you, a Point To Point T1). From reading the comments, nobody is even looking at rural wireless satellite broadband. Disclaimer: I used to work for a satellite ISP so I'm biased. Satellite especially is available anywhere you can see the southern sky (specifically, a satellite hovering 22,300 miles above the equator in geosynchronous orbit) and offers OK speeds for $200 - $600 upfront and anywhere between $50 and $200 per month. The latency sucks (600 ms) but if you aren't using it for gaming, then you certainly don't need a private line circuit with PTP or Frame Relay...

      I was always amazed that so few people knew about or considered satellite broadband despite the millions of bucks a year that HughesNet throws at advertising, especially on DirecTV. WildBlue now also has big co-marketing programs with DirecTV, DISH Network and AT&T. So I'm curious - do people not know about satellite or do they know and just don't want it?

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    8. Re:Ounce of Prevention by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I moved to a rural locations about a year ago. Before moving I gave the address and set up an appointment with time warner to install the road runner service. The guy came out a week after I moved in and couldn't find the cable lines to the house. Evidently it had never been hooked up at this address but was in their database for coverage. SO i Figure good, they will run another cable the 200 yards from the drop at one of the neighbors house. No, they didn't do that. Instead the sent an engineering guy out who surveyed the property and did some study and sent me a letter 2 weeks after that saying it wasn't financially feasible to connect me to the network. I couldn't get specifics of what stopped them just that they wouldn't make money from it.

      Fortunately, I can get a 3 meg DSL connection that seems to do a little better at times so I wasn't too disappointed outside not having the Internet for almost 2 months after being told it would be hooked up a week after my move. My neighbor on one (about 200 yards away) side can get road runner and on the other side (about 6-700 yards away) uses satellite but there is a $1500 installation fee in my area that needs to be paid before you get the service.

      Checking this stuff out first might not always work. AS for the article, I'm sure there would be something available cheaper then $450 a month but there is a need to service these areas. Time Warner and the Telco's offering DSL or Internet are doing so because they had all the competition blocked while they were setting up their networks and running the infrastructure. They have an unrepairable advantage over any startup that might want to service the area and would likely use this advantage to undercut pricing models and run the other companies out of business if there ever did turn out to be a market worth having (profitable).

    9. Re:Ounce of Prevention by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The area I live in has no broadband available, I found this out after being told three times by the cable company (Suddenlink) that it was available. My home is 4/10 of a mile from the last house with service and I was unable to even find someone at the cable company (Suddenlink) that could give me a price to run the cable. So no, a few phone calls would not have informed him that he could not get the service he wanted or how much it would cost to get the service run to his home.

    10. Re:Ounce of Prevention by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 2, Informative

      My neighbor has satellite broadband. One word it SUCKS and it's expensive.

    11. Re:Ounce of Prevention by michrech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I was always amazed that so few people knew about or considered satellite broadband despite the millions of bucks a year that HughesNet throws at advertising, especially on DirecTV. WildBlue now also has big co-marketing programs with DirecTV, DISH Network and AT&T. So I'm curious - do people not know about satellite or do they know and just don't want it? I can tell you *exactly* why satellite doesn't have more "penetration" than DSL/Cable. You answered it in your own statement. Up. Front. Cost.

      People in America (I've seen myself fitting into this mold) are used to "sign this contract, we'll considerably reduce/eliminate the upfront cost". For the most part, you don't get this with satellite. I know you didn't when I had Starband living in Yarrow, MO (population, about a dozen or so). I had to pay something like $400 up front (or so, it was quite expensive for what little I was making at the time).

      People are spoiled by the phone/cable companies "giving" the modem to you. The satellite equipment is just too expensive. Add to that the *required* non-free (most of the time, 'less there is a promotion) installation.

      For stores (like TWE, that was linked from the main article), satellite would work, if the Mall they are located in will allow them to have it installed on the roof. I have a feeling many malls won't, and some just aren't built for it (multi-story, etc -- the cables would probably just be too long, adding MORE cost for amplifiers, or whatever is used for long runs..)
      --
      bork bork bork!
    12. Re:Ounce of Prevention by Bemopolis · · Score: 4, Informative

      The key is should of.

      No, the key is should HAVE.</pedantic>
      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    13. Re:Ounce of Prevention by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some of us have tried it and found that it SUCKS. Latency is 600ms AT BEST. In practice, it's worse. It's also slow, and inconsistent. It a connection of last resort. Since the guy's BUSINESS is the Internet, it's a non-option. $450/month for a T1 is a VERY reasonable and realistic price to pay for something your business depends on. As I said in another comment, that $450/month enables him to make $10K+/month (if he is competent.) Without it, he makes $0. He also gets to write off 100% of the cost, so in reality it doesn't cost quite that much. Like power, heating / cooling, space, advertising, equipment and software, it's a cost of doing business.

    14. Re:Ounce of Prevention by timbck2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It isn't just about up front cost. It's about the ongoing cost, and the sucky service you get for the cost. Satellite internet service isn't bad for just gaming, it also makes VPN basically impossible.

      I'm speaking here from personal experience. Satellite internet is no better than dial-up.

      --
      Absurdity: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce
    15. Re:Ounce of Prevention by JWW · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is true, but the fact that businesses basically get held up at gunpoint for T1 lines with a fraction of the bandwidth at 10x the price that residential users can get is unconscionable.

      I personally believe that the greed of the phone companies with respect to T1 pricing is at the very core of why the US is losing (and losing badly) on the bandwidth front with respect to the rest of the world. We are getting worse broadband, at higher prices than EVERYONE else in the WORLD. Sometime in the next decade this is going to technologically cripple the US and we will lose the rest (we've lost a lot already) of the leadership we have in the internet. The next google, youtube, myspace, etc. may well have incredible multimedia potential and come from another country, and be unusable by most of the people in the US. Eventually, the world will make use of their expanded bandwidth, and will leave us behind.

      And its all because the telcos were addicted to their premium prices they've always charged for T1 lines....

    16. Re:Ounce of Prevention by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 5, Funny

      I encourage the use of malapropisms such as "should of," and the use of the word "less" when "fewer" is correct.

      It's a class marker, like the distinction in American speakers between "drapes" (déclassé) and "curtains". When people use these expressions, they reveal themselves. It isn't a judgmental thing: our world needs working class and lower-middle class people. But it helps sort out who gets invited to which events.

      Trying to get everyone on the same page for language usage reveals a delusional faith in egalitarianism.

    17. Re:Ounce of Prevention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I could probably download 1 or 2 gigs of porn before hitting my fap wall.

    18. Re:Ounce of Prevention by TemporalBeing · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What I'm surprised by here is that it seems like everybody thinks that broadband = cable or DSL (or, God help you, a Point To Point T1). From reading the comments, nobody is even looking at rural wireless satellite broadband.
      Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that Satellite has historically been tied to a dial-up modem as well. It wasn't until a few years back (2001?) that bi-directional sat-comms were even allowed for the home (FCC regulation); and it has taken a few years after that for the Sat Comm providers to even get something out that didn't require a modem to upload. So, it's still a young industry...

      That said, the 400-1200 ms latency (average in 500 to 600 ms range) doesn't help anything either; nor do the up-front-costs, etc. Then, of course, you have to deal with the fact that its portioned out, so if you're not using all your bandwidth all the time then it may take a while to ramp up to the bandwidth when you are doing something that needs it - if you are lucky enough that your need outweighs the others using the same Sat network. (Yes, they over provision too.)

      Also, don't forget how the Sat Comms are affected by:
      • birds flying your line-of-sight path
      • weather (clouds, etc.)
      • trees growing into, falling into, or swaying into your line-of-sight path
      • vehicular movement obstructing your line-of-sight path (depending on placement, and sizes of vehicles)
      • etc.

      So, there are a lot of factors in there, and I'm guessing a few of them probably give people the "it sucks" view point.
      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    19. Re:Ounce of Prevention by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 4, Funny

      I encourage it in the way that I encourage rivals for a job post to dress like clowns and smell of wee.

    20. Re:Ounce of Prevention by ncc05 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Farmer Joe Smith should be worried: his crop is at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.

    21. Re:Ounce of Prevention by twistedsymphony · · Score: 2, Informative

      As someone who lives in the great state of NH I can easily say: Welcome to NH, b*tch.

      I can say that at least half of my co-workers live in areas where they just can't get cable or DSL because the lines end X thousand feet from their house.

      This isn't an Uncommon problem here and the local Cable provider that offers cable internet to most of the state (Metrocast) is very good at telling you exactly where service is and where service isn't. Go on ahead and check their website for youself... plug in Gilsum's zip "03448" right at the top of the metrocast page and see what you get.

      Even still, the receptionists have tools to test the lines out to the exact address you specify and tell you if service is available there. In many cases even if you offer to pay to have the line extended to your house the distance from the ISP is such that it will be quite a shoddy and unreliable connection and they tell you to wait until they put in another distribution center closer to your location.

      Of course the article leaves out that detail. Would you rather an ISP say "sorry even if you pay to have the lines extended the quality will be too damn low so it's not worth doing" or "sure give us $7000" while you drop the cash only to get screwed by unreliable lines.

      Despite the high number of my peers who are without service you really do have to live out in the boonies to not have it around here. I've lived in this state most of my life and moved around quite a bit, I've never found myself in a location without service. A good rule of thumb is if you live within 15miles of a highway you've got a good chance of having internet access... heck I even know a whole lot of people who live on unpaved roads and still have cable internet. (and for you city folk, yes we do have quite a few unpaved roads up here in NH.)

      I stand by that this schmuck just didn't do one iota of research before buying his house.

    22. Re:Ounce of Prevention by ElectricRook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've been happy with wild blue.

      I used to pay $15 for a second phone line, and another $17 for dial-up ISP.

      So I found wild blue, and for $15 more than I was paying, I get ~80K down, ~700mS ping...

      STOP LAUGHING... It's three times faster than the 28.8K dial-up I was getting on a good day.

      Now I can hook up the wireless router, and the kids have two computers, and I can surf from my easy chair.

      Yes I have friends who get 250K for $20, but I no longer have police helicopters flying over-head telling me to get inside and lock the doors and windows. So I'm happy with this trade-off.

      To sum it up, us rural types don't have a crisis, we have a trade-off.

      As a friend once said "$19.95 will get you anywhere... With $19.95 you can get a baby U-Haul, load up all your shit, and move anywhere you want".

      --
      - High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
  2. They don't have hookers on every corner by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 5, Insightful
    They don't have hookers either. OMG!! A hooker crisis! They probably don't have a decent symphony orchestra either. An orchestra crisis! Sorry, not meaning to flame, but this is what it means to live in rural America. You have elbow room, privacy, lots of fresh air, and cheap housing costs. In return, you do without some things.

    As population density drops outside of metropolitan areas, it's impossible for telecommunications companies or cable service providers to justify the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars per mile it can cost to bring fiber to every rural community, let alone every home. It's easy to make a superficial comparison with other countries - particularly European - who have higher population densities. I'd like to see a study in which the figures for broadband access were weighted for density.
    1. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by Scarblac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with density, after all he proposed to pay the entire cost of expanding the cable by himself. They just can't be bothered.

      The problem is that to get good service for anything, you either need real competition between several commercial parties, or serious government investment in infrastructure. It seems that rural parts of the US lack both. Also, barriers to entry for new competitors are huge, and large government investment would probably mean raising taxes and the people always vote that down.

      So the rural US can forget it.

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    2. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by mbradshawlong · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would you say the same if this were about phone service? How about water? Electricity? Many rural residences don't have water service either. They install their own wells with electric pumps for their water needs. My parents who live in rural Minnesota only recently received cable and broadband internet and will likely never have "town" water.
    3. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by chill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's easy to make a superficial comparison with other countries - particularly European - who have higher population densities. I'd like to see a study in which the figures for broadband access were weighted for density.

      While definitions of "broadband" may vary, you may find that availability of a DSL or cable connection is on par between Western Europe and Big City America, levels are different.

      You can get 100 Mbps connection in Sweden and a few other European countries for what a 5 Mbps one costs in the U.S. Want it weighted by population density? Fine. Pick a big U.S. city -- any one. Just ignore the rural part and compare it to Europe on a country-by-country basis, including their suburban and rural parts.

      I used to think like you do, that it was population density that curtailed U.S. broadband in comparison to places like Korea and Europe. Then someone pointed out that U.S. broadband is crappy-to-mediocre in the largest U.S. cities with high population densities. What is the excuse for New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Atlanta and Washington D.C.?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by Andrewkov · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What ever happened to TCP/IP over power lines? It used to be mentioned around here occasionally, but I haven't heard anything about that in a while.

    5. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by ghyd · · Score: 2

      Well in France we have both hookers and ADSL (with TV) in rural areas. And booze. And blackjack.

    6. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's easy to make a superficial comparison with other countries - particularly European - who have higher population densities. I'd like to see a study in which the figures for broadband access were weighted for density.

      New England (and this article refer to NH) does have a population density, including distribution of urban-vs-rural areas, comparable to Western Europe.

      Face it, "We're number 17!". Broadband availability in the US sucks, and the mono/duopolist providers have no interest in improving coverage (quite the opposite, they've actively fought changes in the way they can report availability statistics that would paint a more accurate picture).

    7. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I did pay for the cable company to run a line to my home. I very seriously doubt that it was as involved as you would expect. Here is what happened in my case:

      1. I called the cable company and asked if I could get cable at the house. They responded yes.

      2. I bought the house and requested that they hook it up for cable.

      3. A technition arrived the next month (yes month) and informed me that he didn't have enough wire. He would reschedule and come back. But it might take another month.

      4. I wait a month, no notice of a new appointment. I call again, explain the situation and they send another tech out. He reports that he never got the message that he would need longer lengths of cable and had to reschedule. I made him call IMMEDIATELY from my house on the cell (This was the second day of work I had to miss)

      5. The third technition arrives and informs me that they have to do an extension. It requires a survey. He schedules the survey.

      6. The cable company does the survey, never informs me. I call back 1 month later and tell them that "Yes, proceed with the work" They tell me that it may take up to 2 years to get the permits... (WTF?)

      In the meantime, I investigate every option. Satellite (will not work with what I need). ISDN (the phone company no longer deals in this area) DSL, I'm 16000' just too far. Wireless, I'm on the wrong side of the hill. EVDO: not broadband in my area, pretty much dialup.

      7. 8 months pass and I have to call again "Umm, where the hell are you?" 3 weeks later they finally hook it up.

      So thats what I went through with a company that WANTED to hook up my cable. I paid them to do it. I think it is more that some schmuck didn't want to be bothered with filling out the form to send a truck out to his home.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    8. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by hal2814 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "They don't have hookers either. OMG!! A hooker crisis!"

      This isn't an entirely valid analogy. If you remember from the summary...

      "According to the federal government, just 17% of rural U.S. households subscribe to broadband service." (emphasis mine)

      That doesn't mean that everyone who has access to broadband subscribes to it. A better analogy would be that only 18% of people in rural areas using hookers means there's a hooker crisis. A lot of slashdotters just can't wrap their minds around the idea that some people simply don't want broadband.

    9. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by GeckoX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm confused, you don't like the government mandated regulations on providing phone and electricity service as it allows monopoly entrenchment.

      But the result being that everyone has phone and electricity, and at a reasonable price.

      And the internet providers have been given government backed monopolies, but AREN'T required to provide service to everyone...but this is somehow better?

      Can you fill in the blanks please?

      These services should either be totally open to competition with no government backed monopolies, or the services should be REQUIRED to be provided to all. One or the other. Anything else is just a license to skim the barrel...which is exactly what we have right now.

      --
      No Comment.
    10. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by mobby_6kl · · Score: 2, Informative

      New Hampshire (as well as Vermont and Maine) doesn't have anywhere near the population density of western Europe. NH is roughly three times smaller than the Czech Republic, but has eight times less people. Even if you take New England as a whole, its population density is 2.6 times lower than that of Germany. Sure, we aren't talking about Alaska levels of vacuum, but the overall density is just barely comparable.

      230.9 per km2 for Gemany, 87.7 for New England

    11. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by homer_ca · · Score: 2, Informative

      In economics, utilities like electricity, gas, wireline phone and water are called natural monopolies. You can't have multiple providers because it's inefficient to run duplicate utility lines. You could make the case that fiber optic cables are thin enough that you can have competing providers, and some cities do have two competing cable franchises. The construction work is still disruptive and expensive even if they do have room in the rights of way for a thin fiber cable.

    12. Re:They don't have hookers on every corner by AeroIllini · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Those are all natural monopolies because physical items need to travel along the lines from provider to customer, and cannot be mixed with other customer's items (with the possible exception of phone, which I'll get to later). When you order water from the water company, it has to physically travel from the reservoir controlled by the utility to your house, and the water company owns all the lines in between. The water you order can't be mixed with water your neighbor orders, if your neighbor orders from a different water company. Water, electricity, and natural gas don't have routing addresses.

      The difference with internet is that only the last mile is a natural monopoly. Many different companies could plug their backbones into the last mile going to your house, and in fact many different companies could share the same backbone lines, and your traffic would not be "mixed" or confused with your neighbor's traffic like it would if many water companies were plugged into an analogous hub. The internet is a very unique utility in this way. In fact, the phone system works the same way, but only recently (since digital telephone transmission), and of course telephone providers still maintain their "natural monopoly" status along the whole length of the line, left over from the analog days.

      So the solution in this case is, I think, to separate the last mile providers from the connection providers. Allow the last mile providers to be a natural monopoly, either run by a city/town/village or heavily regulated, just like the rest of the utilities (but separate from the data providers). However, allow free market competition from companies providing Internet service to that last mile hub. This would be even further aided if the last mile providers created a universal standard for providers to plug into, which only requires a software change in order to change providers, instead of a truck changing a physical plug. All data (internet, phone, cable) would come into your home with the same type of cable, whether it comes from a telephone company, a cable company, or some other newcomer. When customers can switch Internet providers easily (as they could when the last mile is owned by the city and software switchable) there will be a real market at work, and all the wonderful pro-consumer effects of supply and demand would suddenly kick in.

      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
  3. Rural == Not A City!!!! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'm not sure just what part of the world "rural" people don't understand, but out here in the boonies (and I live on an isolated island in Alaska - that's rural) we don't have LOTS of thinks. Kentucky Fried Chicken, Wal-Mart, traffic jams, low prices.

    We do happen to have relatively good Internet via cable (1 mb) but you can't take anything for granted. Yes, the big, evil Telcos don't want to put stuff out here because it costs a lot. And yes, they should be soundly trashed because it was already "paid" for.

    A crisis? Oh well. Caveat Emptor.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  4. Surprise? by mh1997 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Soon after moving to Gilsum, N.H. (population 811), [Kim] Rossey learned that he couldn't get broadband to support his Web programming business, TooCoolWebs.
    He couldn't check the web to see if broadband was available? 18 months ago, I moved from a large city to rural Indiana (town population - 500) and guess what, I knew that broadband was not available because I checked before moving. Sure, I pay through the teeth (comparatively) for satellite (which sucks), but it wasn't a surprise that my home would not have traditional broadband.
    1. Re:Surprise? by too2late · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem with Verizon and other large Telco's is they don't even know if they offer services in your area or not. My experience is you call them to find out if it is available and most of the time they will tell you it is available and then after you move into your new house and call them up to sign up, then they tell you it isn't available. By that time you're screwed of course. I live in a semi-rural area (about 10 miles away from a city with pop. 65,000) and my choices are severely limited. What is available is too expensive (> $65 a month for 6 MB from the cable company is all I can get)... I don't want 6 MB and I don't want to spend $65+ a month for internet access. I want what is available to everyone else... 1.5 MB DSL for $15 a month. It's even more frustrating when people that live 1/4 mile away can get it and I can't.

      --
      My rights don't end where your feelings begin.
  5. Re:a disaster by Ogive17 · · Score: 2, Funny

    New Hampshire is sure known for their rednecks!

    --
    "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
  6. Good argument for municipal-owned networks by Cade144 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems like this is a great argument in favor of municipalities building their own fiber infrastructure like they do with roads, sewers and the like.
    Or, like electricity, people could for a Co-Op and get their own broadband.

    1. Re:Good argument for municipal-owned networks by MrMunkey · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I grew up in rural North Dakota. Our small town (population about 500) has the Northwest Communication Cooperative http://www.nccray.com/ They provide phone/dialup/DSL/cableTV access. The co-op seems to have worked fairly well back home. I don't know if that's not normal or not... I just grew up with it there.

    2. Re:Good argument for municipal-owned networks by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right. I really don't know why people fail to categorize the Internet as "infrastructure". Roads, bridges, sewers, water, electricity, and the Internet are all the same sort of thing.

      Sure, you think of the Internet as a bit of a luxury, but I bet running water and paved roads were considered a luxury once. Individuals, private businesses, and governmental organizations are all relying on the Internet on a daily basis. It seems like this sort of infrastructure should either be public or heavily regulated.

    3. Re:Good argument for municipal-owned networks by nevermore94 · · Score: 2

      Well, there's something I don't see everyday on /. I grew up in Tioga, ND and worked at NCC for a summer. My parents still use them and they do provide pretty good service to their area of rural ND.

      --
      Nevermore.
    4. Re:Good argument for municipal-owned networks by Hoot550 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I live in a very rural area, about 40 miles from the nearest civilization. Our telco is a coop and also provides DSL, if you live close enough to their facilities. Fortunately, I do and get 800k to 1.5mb DSL. The cost is reasonable at around $35/month.

      Frankly, I was completely shocked that this speed was available here. When I worked for a rural ISP, we were lucky to get 9600bps connections with a 56k modem in some places.

      The irony is that people in rural areas stand to benefit the most from the Internet. The options for learning and seeing different perspectives are limited out here. Most of the people I work with forget that there is a whole big world out there. I'm one of the strange few who gave up my high paying job to live in the country and be the only technical support person for about a 40 mile radius. Unlike most of the residents here, at least, I have lived elsewhere and experienced the "rest of the world."

  7. There's options, but they suck... by Gorm+the+DBA · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Rural folks can get a quasi-Broadband connection from Satellite Internet providers, assuming they can get a shot to the south (and if you're rural enough to not get broadband, you're probably rural enough you can get a satellite to the south...).

    But it's expensive ($80 or more a month), slow (I had it for 2 years, best DL speed I ever got was only 5 times faster than a 28.8 modem), unstable (hard rain = No internet), unsupported (well...okay, they have people on the other end of the line, but they aren't very good, and they can't fix your problem), and high latency (1500 ms ping is quick. VPN doesn't work, and forget about gaming).

    We need a Tennessee Valley Authority-like program to get Rural America on the net.

  8. It's disturbing by ircmaxell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In urban areas we've gotten complacent that broadband is available, and just works. But in reality, the shape of our broadband is sad at best. My experiences are at best unreliable and inconsistant. Not to mention that Wifi access (even for paid subsribers) is limited at best. We really need to get on our horses and make country wide broadband and wifi (to a lesser extend wifi) an imperitive.

    This doesn't even bring up the point of pricing structures of broadband in urban environments. Cable is around $50 a month (give or take) for 10mbit. A T1 (granted, a dedicated line) is around $400 for 1.54 mbit. Tell me that makes sense?

    --
    If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
  9. Geeks in Space by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unless the business has a strict need for high upload speed, why not satellite? My house and my studio are outside the reach of cable and DSL and I've been using Wild Blue's service at both locations for about 2 years. My brother's business uses it as well. Granted, costs aren't competitive with DSL or cable at a given bandwidth, but it is a lot less expensive than a $450/month T1. The package I have at my studio is advertised at 1.5Mbps down and 256kbps up. Overall it is just as reliable as the cable connection I had when I lived in the city. Wild Blue and a couple of other providers cover pretty much everywhere in the US, including Gilsum, New Hampshire. I do agree with the point of the article, that rural areas need better service. I wish BPL was available at my studio's location, just for its up/down parity, but isn't quite the dire straits it is made out to be. That is particuarly true if we are talking about 'households' that don't likely need a lot of upload bandwidth.

    --
    "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    1. Re:Geeks in Space by tygt · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I used satellite (Starband) for 4 years, and in general I got download speeds of 400-800Kbps, which is fine for typical usage. Upload sucked though at about 30-40Kbps (fastish modem speed). Ping times (to google) were typically about 700ms.

      In general it worked fine; I had a home lab to go with my home office, so I never had to upload images to a remote lab for testing purposes. I could check in C text files using CVS reasonably well. Checking out a large source tree however was painful (too many connections being made; the connection startup overhead was large) so I would typically ssh to a remote host, do the checkout there, tar it, then I'd scp it over the satellite (one connection, and then 400-800Kbps once it was streaming). That was ok.

      Of course, using ssh over that link was horrible; I could type a whole command line before seeing any remote echo, and forget line edit...

      Now I have a T1, and I share it to my closest neighbors (150 and 250 meters away) for a small monthly fee, which barely makes up for the time I spent setting up their networks; their use doesn't crimp mine, and all seems well. No, T1 isn't 6Mbps; however, the service is amazing. It's *never* down, and *never* throttled at all, up or down link. So reliable, and monitored, that it's almost a pain - if I shut down my router for more than 5 minutes, I can expect my cel phone to ring with AT&T on the line checking if they should roll a truck about an outage.

      As far as costs go - $300/mo - so if you're considering T1, do your research, there are deals out there. The best I could get until I found this was a 3-year contract at $525/mo, which was clearly out of the question for me. I called around many times over a couple of years, and one day I got an email from a reseller who said they could work a deal (SBC was trying to keep someone else out, I forget who, but if you had had a quote from the other guys then SBC was willing to go a 3 year contract at 300/mo). Given that first Telstar 8 went dead with no warning for over a week, and I had no service for that time; and then I had a satellite modem keel over dead and had to scramble to get another one; I jumped at the chance.

      All said, I'd prefer a "typical" broadband with a $50-70/mo price tag. However, I really enjoy living in the country, 10 minutes away from a great town with lots of culture (thank tourism I suppose, and lots of retired folks, and some well-to-do ex-hippies), so the resultant $200/mo for my T1 (after my neighbors pitching in) is a small price to pay for a 12-foot commute...

  10. It isn't just rural economies affected by ednopantz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It isn't just Rural economies that are affected by this.

    We have a couple of clients in the exurbs who do logistics: mainly deliveries into cities. The warehouses are in the exurbs where land is cheap.

    But they can't get broadband at the warehouses. Remote assistance means "bring the laptop to Panera so I can remote in."

    1. Re:It isn't just rural economies affected by BoberFett · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you want cheap land to have all the amenities that expensive land has? I'd love to buy a car at Kia prices that's as good as a Ferrari, but it isn't gonna happen.

    2. Re:It isn't just rural economies affected by ednopantz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hey, its your food these guys ship...

      The point being that this isn't just an issue for a couple of hicks in cabins.

  11. why should broadband be a special case? by i7dude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...its a luxury not a basic utility.

    rural areas have always suffered from having limited access to luxury items when compared to more densely populated areas. i just don't see the logic in this complaint. i'm not saying its fair...but its nothing new.

    if internet is really more important than living someplace that is sparsely populated then you pay a premium to get what you need...or you move. my in-laws live on a dairy farm and they still drive 45 minutes just to buy groceries.

    dude.

    1. Re:why should broadband be a special case? by Scarblac · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...its a luxury not a basic utility.

      Bullshit, this is 2007, not 1997.

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    2. Re:why should broadband be a special case? by walt-sjc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the issue is that you are taking the term "luxury" too literally. The only things you NEED to live is food, water, and some sort of shelter.

      Modern life / business / education / etc however has added many other things to the list of "basic needs".

      Can you get by without transportation, electricity or phone? Sure. Can you participate in modern society without those items? Not effectively.

      It's perfectly reasonable to come up with strong arguments that say that broadband Internet access will soon become a "basic need" in order for our society to effectively compete in the global market. In fact, our government (despite total incompetence) has identified this need as real.

    3. Re:why should broadband be a special case? by chill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, technically you can survive in this world without electricity, an automobile or telephone. Do you consider those luxuries? Feel free to substitute maintained roads for automobile to make my point clearer.

      The government subsidized a nationwide road network, electrification and telephone lines because they were by far and away in the best interests of the nation as a whole. Economic booms followed each major project as they greatly enhanced the ability of people and business to conduct trade. In the 21st century, a broadband Internet connection is the equivalent in critical infrastructure. The reality is, if you want to do business, then an Internet connection will be more and more of a necessity. Requiring major population shifts to urban areas just to be able to do business is as short-sighted now as it was before the other major nationwide infrastructure projects.

      While leaning mostly towards libertarian policies I can't agree with unlimited, outright subsidies of nationwide broadband, I have no problem with mandated tariffed services. I fully agree with Google's request to the FCC to require any lessor of the 700 MHz spectrum to provide equal access to all. The airwaves are, after all, property of the people and only leased, not purchased.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:why should broadband be a special case? by deck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Really us folks in the country shuda just ride our horses into town to get the sheriff and the mail. We shuda take our buckboard in on Saturday to do our shoppin at the wounderful Wal-Mart.

      Brriiiittt (sound of phonograph needle scrathing record or finger nails on a blackboard).

      All that I see here in the replies is a bunch of useless condemnation of living in the country by most probably underaged semi-illiterate urbanites who think that Starbuck's coffee is a necessity and not a luxury. You probably don't even know where your food comes from; it just magically appears in the Whole Foods Market near you. And one other thing, if you call the Internet entertainment, then you are probably a telecom astroturfer!!

      Now that I have gotten my rant off of my chest, let me try to be reasonable. Broadband was not a necessity 10 years ago, however it now is a utility. Unfortunately the American public has been ripped off for the past decade by a combination of congress and the telecom companies when it comes to the introduction of broadband in rural areas. VoIP is rapidly replacing POTS (Plain old telephone service). More and more business is being done over the Internet including providing support for farming and ranching (I recently saved about 30% delivered cost on a part for a farm implement by buying on the internet).

      As to the parent post's -- So far, all I hear is "I want it faster!" --, when one has to deal with the huge file size of current webpages over dial-up, then even minimal broadband is a necessity. Before I got wireless broadband, AT&T's copper gave me a whopping 21k bps data rate. It often took 1 to 3 minutes to download minimal pages from the Internet. I don't have all day to wait, I've got work to do.

      This has been a good lunch break.

  12. One major problem is regulation... by Pollux · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most rural areas have not been deregulated. Unless the area was a "Bell Holdings Company" (owned by Ma Bell before the company was split), regulations still exist preventing competition in that region. Whoever owns the area has every [legal] right to say no to expansion.

    I wrote an earlier post on the subject about the same thing going on in my neck of the woods.

  13. Low Cost of Living by JBHarris · · Score: 2, Informative

    The main reason I set up my Web-based business in a small town in Rural GA (aside from the fact that it was my hometown many years ago) is that it costs next to nothing to rent a decent sized office. I pay $400/month for rent on what would demand 5 times that in a larger urban or metropolitan area. So I trade off cheap Internet for cheap rent.

    Most places that have any decent population density have cellular service, and most cellular providers offer near-broadband speeds for less than $100/mo for unlimited access. If that isn't an option, you could always bite the proverbial bullet and get a full or partial T-1.

    Brad

  14. Ahem by wumpus188 · · Score: 2, Funny
  15. Or maybe a dash of creativity... by mortonda · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In many rural areas, wireless broadband is making inroads. Find the nearest neighbor that *can* get cable, and set up a wireless bridge to them. If there's a few people around you, set up a good access point and resell it.

    I know, some cable plans don't like that... but on the other hand, it's not like they were planning to sell it to those folks anyway. Also, in my area, you can pay for "enterprise cable" service which is very reasonable, and they won't complain about what you run on it.

    1. Re:Or maybe a dash of creativity... by krgallagher · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have a lot of family living in rural areas. They are all using wireless internet (read internet via cell phone.) It is not the best, but it blows dial up out of the water, and at $49.00 a month it beats any other high speed option.

      --

      Insert Generic Sig Here:

    2. Re:Or maybe a dash of creativity... by garcia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In many rural areas, wireless broadband is making inroads.

      In many rural areas (NW Iowa and Eastern SD) are my most recent surprising experience) they have EDGE data networks (I-Wireless and/or Cingular) that I have absolutely rocking speeds on (compared to metro areas like MSP) in the middle of farm fields.

      It never ceases to amaze me when I'm in the middle of farm land on a minimum maintenance road in rural South Dakota that I have full data service.

      Why not try tethering or a PCMCIA data card? If you can't get *anything*, that's better than nothing.

  16. NO! Do NOT say "they should move to the city" by keraneuology · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Given the extraordinary public subsidies, law exemptions and bypasses given to the telecommunication companies they need to get their butts in gear and make broadband as available as the original POTS networks. The various states are to blame as well - if they had mandated back in the 80s/90s that new subdivisions couldn't be built unless they had provided for gas, electric, water, sewer AND modern communications then we wouldn't have this problem today.

    If AT&T, Sprint, Verizon and ilk refuse to upgrade their rural networks then pull the subsidies and make them compete on their own merits. At the VERY least they would provide WiFi broadband at reasonable rates.

    --
    If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
  17. Customer owned fiber networks by Brian+Stretch · · Score: 4, Informative

    CANARIE (Canada) has many interesting articles and presentations on cracking the last mile problem. In short: municipalities contract someone to build dark fiber networks to the home, homeowners buy a strand of fiber, and competing service providers plug their electronics into the fiber. There are variations on the theme of course but with a neutral party owning the fiber it makes it very easy for new service providers to set up shop.

    I'd insist that ISPs peer all local traffic at full speed, or at least 100Mbps symmetric, but let competition sort everything else out.

  18. Research, yes, but by wytcld · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I live less than 20 miles from Gilsum, and about a mile from a (relatively) major regional ISP with good SDSL. I did my research before moving here. But the crisis isn't someone moving to Gilsum blindly. The crisis is that there are lots of ways that solid broadband access can give advantage to a business. Good broadband is a strong advantage for economic development. So rural areas need to find ways to develop it. It can be profitable, evidently, even for the providers. The highest DSL penetration in the country is claimed by VTel in Vermont. Meanwhile the State of Vermont is looking at ways to subsidize extending wireless access to the remotest valleys - with the Republican governor's strong support.

    The crisis is that what's good for business and economic development on the whole is often not taken care of by the incumbent carriers, who have discovered ways to make more profits elsewhere without delivering particularly good or advanced services, just by squeezing customers they already have. It's not that they couldn't make real profits in rural areas, but that they'd have to do some actual work to earn them, rather than just live off the legacy of the networks they've already built.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Research, yes, but by k12linux · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did my homework when I moved 15 miles out of the city. I called Verizon and they assured me that YES, DSL service is available at the address where I was considering buying. I called back later and ordered it to be installed in the day I would close on the sale and was again told that yes, everything looked fine.

      A couple weeks after I moved and still didn't have DSL I called I was told that sorry, the line conditions to my home prevent it. I later learned this was BS. As I was driving past the switching station I saw a Verizon tech coming out of the building so I stopped and asked what the problem was with the lines. He said that the problem with the line was that Verizon doesn't even have DSL equipment at this town's switch. (Verizon has fiber run within 100 yards of the switching station, btw.)

      I started looking into wireless (latency with satellite made it a non-option for my needs.) The community was interested in offering wireless broadband service but laws passed in my state forbid it. (Laws lobbied for by the telco industry btw.)

      Charter offered cable TV already but seems to have no interest in offering Internet as long as Verizon wasn't doing it either.

      A local business was willing to split T1 costs (best price I could find was $550/mo) but I'd have to get service back to my home and there is a large hill between them and me. So I checked on leasing dark copper and using a Pairgain unit to send the data over it. Verizon wanted about $65/mo for the 3 miles of copper. (Over double the cost of using the same copper wire AND phone service for telephone... plus NO service level gaurantees.)

      I left fliers with 200 homes in the community and 30 people took the time to call/email and say that they would love to get broadband at any reasonable price. (If you do any work with advertising, you'll now that 15% call back is awesome and likely means that as much as 40-50% of people in town would pay for broadband. Which makes sense since many people in town work in the "city" 15-20 miles away.)

      I would have started a wireless Internet business (WISP) but if Verizon or Charter decided that they wanted to offer broadband in town after all within the first couple of years I would have lost my shirt on the equipment costs needed to start up from scratch.

      Eventually I shared my "market research" with an existing WISP 25 miles away and they extended their network into town. I finally have broadband (512kb/512kb - which I can live with) at a price I can live with. If I had it to do all over again I would probably go ahead and start up that WISP business. Very high speed links are available wirelessly sometimes as much as 100 miles or more. Once the initial equipment is paid for it becomes a steady income without a ton of work (which I'm sure is why Verizon, etc. love being ISPs.)

  19. Too bad by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This problem would appear to be hampering the economic development of rural areas, specifically in regard to things like call centers or other "warm body" like enterprises that korporate America could take advantage of. The cost of doing business in rural areas would be significantly lower than in metro areas, especially where wages are concerned. Commute times and quality of life would factor in also. Why aren't our rural areas leveraged for their labor?

    You would think that rural economic development entities would be trying to encourage broadband...

    Perhaps states and counties could encourage broadband expansion into rural areas via incentives.

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  20. The virtues of regulated monopolies by dpbsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    AT&T was founded on Theodore Vail's vision of "universal service." There were good and bad things about Ma Bell, but one good thing about it was that it united the nation with a uniform, uniformly priced, highly reliable service.

    Exactly the same thing is true of the post office. It costs the postal service more to mail a letter to Alaska than to mail it across town, but the price of the stamp is 41 cents.

    Universal service is only possible if the service provider is allowed to cross-subsidize the areas that are expensive to service with revenues from the areas that are cheap to service. Competition and the free market will always produce wildly varying prices and cream-skimming (in which the most profitable markets get service from multiple suppliers and the least profitable get no service at all).

    If the Internet is now as fundamentally important as the telephone or the postal service, then--just as with the interstate highway system, or the system of air traffic control which enables airline service to be nationwide--there will need to be national policy to that effect. Otherwise it won't happen.

  21. Yes, it makes sense. by C10H14N2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    You're not even guaranteed 56kbps on your residential "broadband" line. Hell, you're not even guaranteed it will work AT ALL on any given day. When you pay for a T1, what you're paying for is getting every single goddamned one of the 1.544M bits every second of every day in both directions--and the right to do whatever the hell you want with them.

    1. Re:Yes, it makes sense. by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Note to mods, that is 100% on topic, and 100% correct.

  22. So What? by linuxwrangler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Where I grew up (Mojave Desert) there was a Beach Access Crisis. It was far harder for us to enjoy water activities than those people in urban areas like Los Angeles and San Francisco. But the smog and traffic in LA was hideous. In California, we have better access to fresh fruit and vegetables than people in many parts of the country.

    Broadband is not "unavailable", it is merely more expensive. Wherever you live, some things will be more available and others will be less available. Get over it. The fees that were (stupidly, I believe) tacked on to all phone bills to fund rural access are still there - just a big pot of cash that the telco's squabble over even though routing phone service to rural areas is no longer a real issue.

    Whenever I hear talk of rural access fees, I wonder why the same people aren't championing an urban affordibility fee. Tacking a huge additional fee onto transfer and property taxes in rural areas to help fund the ability to live in San Francisco or Silicon Valley makes about as much (non)sense.

    --

    ~~~~~~~
    "You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
  23. That's right, defend the mega corps. by IcyNeko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anyone else think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, our attitude towards the lax customer service portion of corporations have allowed them to grow lazy and fat as hell? I mean, it's sad when in Asia and the netherlands, most of their people have broadband (and most of the intro packages are cheaper and much faster than the crap we offer in the US). Yet, they're cool with keeping us underdeveloped because it would cost them an extra buck or two (even though it would eventually earn itself back). But nooo, they want to make the money now. And you allow them to continue with the short sighted business model, which in turn hampers our development.

    Keep it up, man. Keep making America great. I mean, who needs to be on the leading edge of service anyway?

  24. Same situation for me by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm in the same situation. I was originally going to move the 56Kb line out to the new house in the country and host my webserver there. Sure, it would cost a lot per month (same as his T) but that's the price of doing business. Then I got a sweetheart deal from my local ISP: help in exchange for hosting, plus a 384Kb frame relay line to my house. That was great for a few years, but it wasn't costing them any less, and when they quit using frame relay, they had to drop my home connection.

    No cable on our road; too far out for DSL. I had used dialup, but I'd rather choke myself to death with a hampster. Tried satellite, but interactive use over a satellite is like shooting yourself in the foot, day after day. Finally found a local business which had cable with line of sight. I pay him $20/month rent to host a cablemodem, router, and antenna on the roof. I pay the cableco for a 5MB/512KB business connection, and I'm all set.

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  25. Not seeing the forest for the trees by btarval · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, yes, one always should do one's research beforehand. But that's like only seeing the tree in front of you, and missing the entire forest.

    The basic problem here, and throughout the U.S., is that the so-called "last mile" lines are tightly controlled by the local monopoly, and closed off almost completely to any competition. When you don't have competition, you have no incentive to offer better service.

    The only way we'll ever see either wider deployment, or 100 Mbs to the house in the next 10 years, is if the Telephone companies are divested of the Central Offices. That is, these are spun off into businesses which sell the lines to competing companies. Only then will you have motivation to upgrade the last mile with better services and speeds.

    What I find amusing is that there's always someone who will say "but there won't be any interest in upgrading the rural areas". They always fail to realize that there is no interest right now, and isn't any on the horizon.

    If you make this market truly competitive, then there will be interest. Now, granted the price will necessarily be higher, and that's where the main objection from people living out in the rural area comes from. But at least there will be service for a price. And that's what is needed to get the infrastructure ball rolling to deploy better solutions than just a T1 (which really looks rather pathetic these days).

    It's also amusing that America is facing internation pressure on this front (while doing nothing about it). Other countries are deploying high-speed internet (100+ Mbs), while the best we've got being rolled out is a pathetic 6 Mbps.

    Silicon Valley in particular is extremely lacking here.

    Unless this is changed, and soon, there will be a lot of other countries which are in a better position to compete than the U.S.. The next 10 years will be interesting.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
  26. Bigger ISSUE!!! by xzvf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The issue is broadband is becoming required infrastructure for business and rural areas don't have it. Areas of the country with less population density now have reliable power, roads and telephone service because the infrastructure was universally built out. Because of programs like the TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) that electrified rural areas and the Interstate Highway system and regulation in industries like railroads and telephones, factories can reasonably be located in rural areas. Recent census data indicates urban and suburban areas are growing faster that rural areas which could be an indication that urban job growth is drawing people in. The question we have to ask ourselves as a nation, is do we want to return to a situation where production is centered on large urban areas or make the investment in infrastructure to make rural areas viable.

  27. Re:It's EVERYTHING about density. by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but once the cable company lays the line, it's obligated to charge him the same price it charges all the other customers

    Golly gee shucks. The original poster talks about crying a river, but I guess the cable company shouldn't have contracted with the government to guarantee a monopoly if the terms were just so damn onerous.

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  28. what I think is interesting by misanthrope101 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    is how many people here on Slashdot would rather have no internet service available than have it subsidized/provided by government. If we met someone who would prefer to have no roads at all over government-operated roads, we'd think "what a moron!" but suddenly if it's the internet, we have to wonder if they have a point.

    I'm largely libertarian (I know, I know, I've surrendered my credentials with this post alone) but some things, like mail service, phone service, water service, and yes, internet, aren't profitable enough on the small scale for the greed factor to make it worth providing service to houses scattered across the prairie, or even in small towns. So we have to choose between no internet at all or cries of encroaching socialism. The question is whether the economic benefits of internet access are enough to warrant the problems caused by government involvement.

    Were the benefits of phone or mail access enough to warrant government involvement? Anyone want to speculate on the economic life of a town with no phone or internet or public roads? The phone system may not have been government-supplied, but they did guarantee the monopoly that made it sufficiently profitable. The distinction isn't that important, in this context.

  29. Taxes have already paid for this service by katorga · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Regardless. Federal taxes have been collected and redistributed to the ISP's to fund rural "information superhighway" infrastructure. Where did the money go? Did the ISP's just steal it and refuse to build the infrastructure? Do we need to recover the funds through taxes on the ISPs themselves? It has been paid for, now it needs to be built.

    Second, internet access in rural areas is a huge boon to job growth in those areas where land is cheap. It is a win for everyone involved. I'd rather "outsource" to rural America than to India.

    Third, huge urban sprawl is an ecological nightmare. The government needs to provide incentives to redistribute populations on a wider geographic basis. Not having access to basic business infrastructure makes this very very hard.

    1. Re:Taxes have already paid for this service by Paulrothrock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Third, huge urban sprawl is an ecological nightmare. The government needs to provide incentives to redistribute populations on a wider geographic basis. Not having access to basic business infrastructure makes this very very hard.

      I think you're wrong there.

      Most people who live in Manhattan use fewer resources and walk more than people who live in the suburbs. The real problem isn't urban life, but suburban life. By putting everything far away from everything else, you encourage people to drive. And by making people drive, you have to pave more for roads and parking spaces. Not only that, but you also have to account for the increased energy needed to distribute goods over those long distances.

      All other things being equal, urbanization is better for the environment as a whole than suburbanization. Indeed, people who live in urban environments are healthier than those who live in suburban or rural areas. And a well-designed urban area, with walkable stores, reliable mass transit, and well-maintained parks is a joy to live in.

      I should know, I live in one. (But I still can't get good broadband!)

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:Taxes have already paid for this service by Renraku · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's exactly what happened. They took the money, rolled out broadband for a small percentage of their customers, and the rest went to the shareholders. Now they're bitching that its too expensive to service everyone.

      Those tax breaks are probably paying for someone's yacht right now.

      The government should sue them for the total cost, plus interest, of the breaks/benefits they gave those companies, or some kind of pro-rated amount. Can't pay it? Tough. And no you aren't going to raise rates to make the consumers pay for it.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
  30. Re:a disaster by Sunburnt · · Score: 2, Funny

    They are, actually.

    Remember, redneck!=Southerner.

    Although there are a bunch of rednecks down South, that's only as a corollary to the fact that there are a bunch of rednecks everywhere.

    --
    Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
  31. Is it a real 100mbps connection? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Informative

    In my experience, Europe, in particularly the Scandinavian countries, and the US sell connections differently. In the US you usually don't get as high a signaling rate. 10-12mbps is generally the max you get. However, the rate you pay for is one that is properly supported by upstream. Your 6mb DSL will get 6mb to any site that can support it. The Scandinavian countries offer much faster pipes to your house, but don't back that up further up the chain. It's a big WAN in effect. You'll get great transfers to anyone on that ISP (at least on that ISP in your country) but you get much slower transfers to the rest of the world.

    Now maybe that's changed, but if it has I certainly don't see it in my experience.

    Also, for what it's worth as a given datapoint. Speedtest.net shows North America as having the fastest aggregate connections, above Europe. Of course there's problems with the way a test like that works, but it does indicate that perhaps the rest of the world isn't as blazing fast as people on Slashdot like ot make it out.

  32. What's up with the US? by phorm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Seriously, one of the towns/villages along my normal work route - population under 1500 - is halfway up a mountain, far enough from the city to be pain to install high-speed, and yet still has internet.

    See here for more info. Commercial broadband internet has been available for years, and residential popped in more recently. Here's another town with a population of a little under 3000. We've got areas that are little more than a smudge on the map that have decent broadband, since both Telus and Shaw cable have a good trunk. On top of that, smaller or more-local providers such as OCIS provide internet via shared/leased connections (with their own infrastructure added to make the last mile) and other technologies such as wireless etc... without being strangled off by the big guys

    Sorry, but if we Canucks can manage it, the US can too. I'm fairly sure it's a case of piss-poor implementation, support, and just basic greed that keeps it from happening.

    And before people start pointing out that the US has more population to reach, I'd like to point out that Canada has plenty of area, and plenty of open space between locations but still manages to for the most-part get internet out to nowheresville across plenty of long-empty distance and nasty unpleasant environmental conditions (no, we don't have 365 snow here, we go range from as much as +40c/104F in summer to -40C/-40F in winter, so we get it *all*)

  33. Re:Trade-offs by techie4Dover · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have two remote users that live in areas where cable has chosen not to go and there is no DSL. I have them connected via satellite using HughesNet. (www.hughesnet.com) The hardware cost was $299.00 and the monthly fee is 59.99 per month. Installation and service has been very responsive. Now while I grant you the cost is not cheap, the reliability and speed my users are getting from the network service is fantastic. And the better news is that I can buy more bandwidth. I realize that others have reported issues when attempting a satellite alternative in the past, however, I've been more than pleased with my current experiences.

  34. Western Europe isn't that great, either by harmonica · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Western Europe's population density varies a great deal. Obviously, there is some average value, but there are rural areas, where you can't get a fast Internet connection. I only know the situation here in Germany. It's the same thing - it would cost telcos too much to get DSL there, so they don't do it.

  35. For starts... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    To equal the density of Paris, you would have to cram the entire 3.8M population of Los Angeles (city) into the 68 square miles of Washington, DC--on top of the existing 600,000 people--and you'd still be short by a quarter million. To equal Seoul, you'd have to take the entire populations of New York City, Chicago and Los Angeles and shove them onto Manhattan.

    1. Re:For starts... by hb253 · · Score: 4, Informative

      According to Wikipedia

      Seoul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul has a population density of 17,108 people/sq km

      New York City http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_york_city has a population density of 27,083 people/sq km

      I would say you are wrong.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    2. Re:For starts... by hb253 · · Score: 2

      You are correct, I am wrong.

      What is your favorite color? Blue, no, yellow! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
  36. Fixed Wireless by aclarke · · Score: 2, Informative

    I haven't found anything worth modding up yet so I'll just post. Here's my personal anecdotal evidence which of course isn't worth much.

    I live in rural Ontario, Canada on a farm. I'm 4 miles from the nearest town of ~600 people and about a 15 minute drive from a 45,000 person town (Woodstock, ON if you care). I have fixed wireless available to me which operates on a 900MHz band. The whole general area is blanketed by the service, in some cases even by more than one provider. Sure it cost a few hundred dollars to set up, and it's maybe $70/month when you factor everything in, but for that price I have a nominal 3Mbps/512kbps connection with a static IP, and no bandwidth caps or restrictions. In reality most of the time it's more like 1.5Mbps/400kpbs but it's good enough for me to work from as I'm self employed and work at home.

    This service has been available here for years, and was put in place back when I was living in suburban southern California and having trouble finding broadband service.

    Fixed wireless seems like a great way to serve low density areas. I personally use XPlornet and am very happy with them. They have real people answering the phones.

    1. Re:Fixed Wireless by jc42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I live in rural Ontario, Canada on a farm. ... it's maybe $70/month when you factor everything in, but for that price I have a nominal 3Mbps/512kbps connection with a static IP, and no bandwidth caps or restrictions.

      Well, I live in a fairly densely populated suburb of Boston, and the best we can do here for a static IP and no restrictions is $100 a month for a speakeasy DSL line that delivers 1.5/320 MB.

      We actually have several providers, but once Verizon succeeds at persuading the FCC to "deregulate" us, speakeasy will be kicked out, and currently Verizon charges $200/month for a comparable line. We also have Comcast, but the last I checked, they wouldn't do static IP or promise not to block ports on a "residential" line for any price. Both Verizon and Comcast are locally documented to also block stuff like Skype packets, though their PR people look very innocent when claiming that they would never do such a thing.

      Sounds like Canadian rules are a lot better for the customers than the rules around here.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  37. New mission for the 21st Century Post Office by bladel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Consider the economic benefits if the USPO stepped into areas abandoned by broadband ISPs and provided cheap, reliable connectivity that urban citizens enjoy.

    No, I am not a Socialist.

    --


    Information wants to be Free. Useful Information will cost you.
  38. National Disgrace by samantha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Gore was right. The "internet superhighway" is just as if not even more important than the national superhighway system. It should be a national priority to insure high bandwidth broadband everywhere in the country and both wired and wireless. The boon to business, innovation, entertainment, communication, access to information and computational resources makes it more than worth it.

  39. Re:a disaster by Gilmoure · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Per Bob, the contractor, from Buffalo; the reason the South lost the war is that Maine's rednecks are a hell of a lot tougher than the South's.

    --
    I drank what? -- Socrates
  40. D'oh! Density again! by symbolset · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At this point I have to believe somebody is paying you guys to present these density and last mile arguments.

    In sleepy little towns less than pop. 5000 across rural washington you can get fiber to the premises and 100mbps service for less than $40/mo.

    The problem is that the incumbent monopolies are milking the market for far more than they should be able to get away with. That is the only reason. All of these logistic and practical reasons are nothing but industry propaganda. I post this in every broadband thread and will continue to do so.

    Muni broadband. The incumbents won't build us a bridge to the modern market so the People must.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  41. Re:a disaster by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Funny

    I have spent a lot of time in upstate NY as well as the "pee dee" region of SC (AKA, the buckle of the bible belt). I can certainly attest to this: Southern rednecks are typically louder, and consume far more cheap beer and BBQ pork than any other rednecks. I can also say that no southern redneck can begin to compare to the levels backward society that is shared by most new england hicks. The NY breed in particular in many cases is not much more evolved than the inbred farmers of the early 1800s. Most New England hicks also work fields or other hard labor for a living, and endure harsher climate shifts, and thus are usually much tougher than they typical southern trailer hick variety.

    In the south, for the most part, redneck is a lifestyle choice. In new england, it's much more of a lifestyle they're stuck with. Given access to cultured society, technology, and education, most NE hicks will willingly shed their status and quickly evolve. Most SC rednecks have such access, but continue to slide backwards due to apathy and low work ethic.

    I would hesitate to cross either breed. In a knock down drag out fight between each other, I'd put my money on the NE breed any day. They may be somewhat single minded and simple, but they have much more drive!

    (I state this jokingly of course, just in case a member of either breed reads this and fails to understand the sarcasm).

    --
    There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
  42. What does cable and a pigeon have in common? by jgoemat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They both crap all over you.

    450-per-month contract for a T1 line that delivers 1.44Mbit/sec. of bandwidth. He pays 10 times more than the cable provider would have charged and receives one quarter of the bandwidth

    Granted, he pays roughly 10 times, if you already have cable and phone through your cable company, and if you don't count the taxes and fees that specifically get added for cable internet. 8mbps cable is $46 / month where I live. What people don't realize is that at 1.544mbps, you actually get the full bandwidth and a stable connection. You have 24 64kbit direct links to your ISP. With cable, everyone's data is transmitted over the cable lines, so you share your bandwidth with everyone on your node. If you happen to be on a node with few subscribers on it, you will get the full 8mbps. More than likely, you will get a MUCH slower connection at least during busy times. Also, a T1 is very reliable, and cable internet is NOT. I tried cable internet twice in two different areas and got rid of it both times due to slow speeds and dropped connections. Eventually it was going out almost every day. I would call tech support and be on the line for 45 minutes while he had me unplug MY COMPUTER. Come on, my computer should have NO EFFECT on whether the little green link light on the cable box is on. You know how many times our T1 has gone down at work over the last three years? ZERO.

    I think the most misleading portion though is claiming 1/4 the bandwidth. The upload speed on cable is actually a MAXIMUM of 512kbps, that used to be 128kbps and might vary from area to are and depending on how active your node is. If you have people using P2P on your node, forget about it. A T1's upload speed is actually three times as much at 1.44mbps. Also with a T1 you have lower latency than with a cable box. Both of these items are important for a web programming business, this guy should be happy with the increased value of a T1 over cable internet. Combine that with the improved reliability (also very important if you're running a business), and I would get the T1 over the Cable even if it was available.

  43. No sympathy from me by hax4bux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am tired of reading about people who move to the sticks and are surprised they don't have { broadband | fire department | police | medical | cable TV | trader joes | etc }

    I moved to Shasta County, California from Santa Cruz. I know all about this and at least I took the time to research it before moving.

    People should take some responsibility for their decisions.

  44. Satellite Broadband Service from Wildblue by jaramilr · · Score: 2, Informative

    A company called Wildblue offers broadband access over satellite. They have nation-wide coverage in the US. The service is very similar to cable modem service. The only difference is that you get a dish on your roof (similar size to dish tv, etc) instead of a cable connection from the street. It costs a little more than cable modem or DSL service but lots less than some of the solutions I've seen in the comments.

  45. Rural internet information networks ARE by CoriolisSTORM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I live in a rather poor very rural area and I have to go ahead and say this, but the infrastructure in these areas is horrible! DirectTV is THE ONLY provider for high speed internet in our area, and their (when I checked) $500 setup fee was rediculous even to me! The nearest place that gets cable is 15 miles northeast and is actually a "town." The phone line quality is utterly horrendous. Even when talking on the phones there is a horrible buzzing sound 45% of the time. I have internet access through People PC now (local ISP went out of business), and I connect at a constant 21.6k with them and I did about the same with my old local ISP. So, before the information superhighway can be extended properly to rural customers like myself, it first needs to be prepared for it, a washed out dirt road is NOT acceptable. Summary; our information network needs overhauling FIRST before we can get high speed to rural areas. Dont even get me started on the state of the ACTUAL roads...

  46. It's their choice and we shouldn't . . . by madmac63 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's their choice to live in the middle of nowhere and enjoy easy commutes, lower costs of living, etc. But we shouldn't have to subsidize it. And we do. Rural phone access charges on our phone bills, being one. Rural electrification was another. And if we pass legislation subsidizing rural broadband it will be just another case of the tail wagging the dog . . . typically through the US Senate, which is topheavy in members from sparsely populated states. madmac