Slashdot Mirror
NZ, Sweden, Hungary Reflect OOXML Turmoil
A number of readers are sending news of the progress of Microsoft's attempt to get OOXML standardized by ISO. First off, New Zealand has voted "no" on the question. In Sweden, after the uproar following the "yes" vote there, a Microsoft representative has admitted buying Swedish OOXML votes (link in Swedish — follow the Read More... link below for some translated quotes). Computerworld has also picked up the Sweden story. Finally, from Hungary, reader ens0niq writes that the Minister of Economy and Transport has sent a letter to the General Director of the Hungarian Standards Institution requiring that the June 25 "yes" vote be re-done because of irregularities. Our correspondent notes, however, that many Microsoft partners have joined the voting committee in the meanwhile, so the result could be a replay of Sweden's experience.
Here are some quotes from the Swedish article translated by our anonymous correspondent.
-We have been informing our business partners about the process at SIS. What is going on, what the time plan is and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard.
-In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes. As a compensation they would get "market benefits" and extra support in terms of Microsoft resources.
-This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
-I can understand the critique about coup-like voting. But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
(Interviewer) -Has this harmed Microsoft?
-Time will tell. But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard.
Here are some quotes from the Swedish article translated by our anonymous correspondent.
-We have been informing our business partners about the process at SIS. What is going on, what the time plan is and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard.
-In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes. As a compensation they would get "market benefits" and extra support in terms of Microsoft resources.
-This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
-I can understand the critique about coup-like voting. But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
(Interviewer) -Has this harmed Microsoft?
-Time will tell. But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard.
who just uttered "Fucking Word!", I can't imagine why they'd have to buy the vote...
-Matthew Riley "TofuMatt" MacPherson
I have a website
One can only hope that enough publicity to the "irregularities" will force the votes to be better controlled and conducted in the future.
Yes MS got the Swedish vote - but I think they will find it to be a Phyrric victory.
>But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
If this is true, then why
1) does MS tell their partners in the letter on which arguments for OOMXL they should use? MS even advises their partners to not use "too technical" arguments (are there "technical" arguments in favour of OOMXL anyway??).
2) does MS tell their partners to go to one or two meetings AFTER the voting to prove they are not only in it for this single vote?
Microsoft, it offends me that you don't even try to hide your manipulations anymore. It's all out in the open. Everybody can see that the whole process is bullshit. As long as it's legal or can be twisted to look legal, you don't seem to mind anymore. Other businesses at least make an effort not to upset the public that is being raped.
This is awesome. Microsoft buys votes, and then, after voting has been completed, they can simply turn around and claim that they will not follow up on their promises given to their vote-selling partners!
Yeah, I know, nothing new here. Just needed to vent
Capitalism: When it uses the carrot, it's called democracy. When it uses the stick, it's called fascism.
Why is it always the fault of a single employee if something goes wrong, and the success of the team if things go right? Where is their fucking backbone to stand with the people in the company?
I mean, what incentive to the employees now have to do the right things? Well, if there's going to be blame, you're literally on your own, and always have been. If there's a success, it's definitely not your success.
Is it me, or is there a shift towards a "something wrong? blame the individual!"-style behaviour?
B.
Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
What I am asking is this: let's assume that Microsoft spends major bucks to get their OOXML stuff accepted in a few different countries through a standards committee, but then the standard is proven to NOT be open -- as is being shown by work already in progress -- but that the lack of openness and the bad press generated by their blatant vote buys in the mean time pretty much corrupts the market value of their standard anyway.
What do you think?
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
- Every linux user registers with the ISO for the next set of votes
- Those that have registered then bill the US DOJ for their ISO membership costs
- ???
- Profit
It is afterall the DOJ who are to blame for Microsoft still having the standing to pull this shit.This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
Was this employee fired?
..at least they are re-doing the vote, and that's good, even if the end result will be the same. Considering how egregious the irregularities were, for example, in Portugal, and yet noone seems to give a duck, it's nice that some hungarian senior officials are making a stand of principle.
I should disclose that I am half hungarian.
Now I hope the other countries where MS did their dirty deeds to get OOXML ISO-standardized, will have an epifany of sorts and cancel the fraudolent voting results.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
It's just a simple excuse that people can't counter easily. Everybody knows it's effectively Microsoft the corporation that sent those letters, but for Microsoft it's simple to use a, real or imagined, employee as shield.
Had it been a real rogue employee that had sent those letters then we'd be hearing he/she had been fired instantly - since this is effectively fraud/falsification in the company's name. We haven't seen any such firing, hence it must be supported from higher above.
The problem for Microsoft is how much publicity this story got. Apparently more than they had anticipated.
Fight for your digital freedom, join the EFF *now*: http://www.eff.org/support/
If it becomes ISO-approved then it's a huge argument for managements around the world to use this new Format. It takes time for the public to soak up critisism, most likely too long - companies and public service might adopt it and start to convert all their stuff/send their stuff in the new format and when it's all picked up momentum it's hard to stop.
Fight for your digital freedom, join the EFF *now*: http://www.eff.org/support/
Aren't Microsoft missing something here?
Surely the whole point of standards, be they national or international, is that they are not allowed to depend on encumbered "intellectual property". So if OOXML is adopted as an ISO standard, then all the necessary patents will have to be annulled!
Requiring a person to pay patent royalties to one person or corporation merely in order to comply with the law of the land is extortion, plain and simple.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
CodeShark (the GP) made the mistake of thinking like a person instead of a manager.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I know that everyone on slashdot is shocked, shocked <\voice> to find Microsoft twisting the arms of their partners. I mean, it's not like they've ever done something like with with PC manufacturers who want to pre-install another OS, or anything.
It's mildy amusing to hear the feigned shock and dismay when Microsoft pulls their antics. At this point, behavior of this stripe should the expected outcome of any situation where Microsoft is involved. Whatever they may have done right in the past, for the last seven or eight years they've been heading down a path that makes it clear they'll do anything to crush competition (except actually produce a better product)
We all know what they're going to do before they even get their PR machine going. One hint: it won't be the right thing.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
OOXML seems to be, from a technical standpoint, such a poorly constructed format that voting on whether or not to name it a standard is just silly. It should have been turned down long ago for its flagrant stupidities and sent back to Redmond with a post-it saying "nice joke!" attached.
Sure, that's the point. However, if it becomes a standard anyway, that doesn't mean that after the fact MS is going to be voiding any patents! (The only "hope" would be if it were necessary to void the patents in order to get standards acceptance.)
Remember that any overlap between logic and committees is pure coincidence!
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
<w:r rogue:empidRPr='MS00404922' xmlns:rogue="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/o oxml/sp2/employee/curtain">s p2/employee/curtain"/>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Hey, guys! Vote yes on our standard and we'll send you some free T-shirts and mugs!</w:t>
</w:r>
Microsoft is a pimp and the partners are it's whores.
You can keep them in line be beating them ugly up or giving them drugs.
Microsoft chooses to maintain them getting fucked again and again so Microsoft can reap the profit.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
<w:r rogue:empidRPr='MS00404922' xmlns:rogue="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/o oxml/sp2/employee/curtain">s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>s p2/employee/curtain"/>
...
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Hey,</w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t> </w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>guys!</w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t> </w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Vote</w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t> </w:t>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>yes</w:t>
</w:r>
While Americans consider graft to be wrong, many American companies find the only way to access foreign markets is to pay off the corrupt gatekeepers. This doesn't neccessarily mean the people of those countries are inferior for failing to erradicate corruption, it just means their culture holds 'different' values.
The BBC has a nice page of links to key reports regarding how various countries and politicians around the world held 'different' cultural values in the Oil-For-Food scandal.
A thin veneer of XML over the old binary data? Check.
Encumbered by patents and other "intellectual property"? Check.
Unimplementable without 500 man-years of effort and a whole lot of inside knowledge? Check.
You've got to hand it to Microsoft, this is brilliant stuff. It's just as much of a lock-in as the old binary data ever was but they've got ISO voting to make it a new standard. It's amazing what a few free lunches can buy.
No sig today...
It was not just America's DOJ that nothing. It has been ALL of the ocuntries DOJ that have done nothing. Has EU fined AND collected MS? Has EU punished MS by telling them that they can only sell x # of copies? Have they limited MS in anyway or shape that prevent this kind of BS over in Europe? How about in Japan? Canada? China? Russia? Mexico? Where ever? Is there ANY country that has had the balls to do what is right?
Near as I can tell, NOT A ONE. Welcome to the global economy.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Whatever little thing you can. Even small steps count.
It's easy to bemoan the fact that there's this large corporation with a virtual monopoly on desktop operating systems and office tools. The wailing and gnashing of teeth across slashdot about this is almost ceaseless.
My suggestion (and something I'm doing myself) is to think of ways to encourage people to move away from Microsoft products. If you "support" family and friends, recommend Firefox if they ask you about security. Encourage someone to try out a live CD of Ubuntu. If you know someone who is thinking about buying a new computer who is considering a Mac, provide arguments in favor and offer support.
I've moved every computer I own (five) off Windows. My wife and I both have Mac laptops (good riddance to that Dell crap), our HTPC is a mini, our server and the PC in our garage are running Ubuntu. When my sister-in-law wanted a Mac, I encouraged her husband to get her one, and offered to her with support (he's a Windows guy). When my dad asked about internet security problems, I pointed him to Firefox and gently suggested that IE/Windows isn't the best choice.
I'm not suggesting (as some here do) that you should be ramming Open Source or a non-Windows OS down someone's throat. I wouldn't ever advocate being pushy about it, since you catch more flies with honey... but when it comes up (and for those of us who are "support" for family and friends, that's pretty often) it never hurts to gently, subtly point out alternatives to MS. If every geek who villifies MS on slashdot does their small bit, we can eventually make a difference.
Just my $.02
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
You have governments interested and 'market subsidies'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Pract ices_Act
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Last I knew, this guy sent the letter as official correspondence, and that "official correspondence represents the company". I don't know how they could use the "single employee" theory, because Accounting doesn't give *me* $50,000 to spend as I please without authorization.
(See? Who's supposed to pay that? That means at least TWO employees... and counting.)
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
"...Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard."
O rly? I couldn't have guessed!!
"But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard."
And I suppose you talked to other companies customers and not just your own?
+1 Agree -1 Disagree
For corrupt practices. Or at least, ban them from this vote in particular.
"In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes...
This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a certain chair-throwing employee on his own initiative "
Influencing the market by throwing money at legislation and standards bodies instead of improving your product and becoming more competitive has become a standard way of doing business for years. In the 70's, rather than improve their product at the time, car manufacturer's in the US successfully lobbied for and got quotas on Japanese cars which were pound for pound far superior at the time.
Sweden may turn into a Phyrric victory, but only if other people manage to make it so. This was a sufficiently gratuitious piece of corruption that it should lead to investigations in all other countries where MS got a yes vote. Is there anything can we do to ensure that the companies that voted for MS after getting such an offer are punished. I guess that making police complaints in other countries might help. It would be interesting to find out what was sent to partners in other countries.
Janos Koka Minister of Economy and Transport is so corrupted along with the cabinet his part in that this deal is doomed and MS will get another yes. This minister thru his communist family and friends had a Double dipping LLC and schools were forced mandatory to buy dial up internet as the only internet access they were allowed to have for the price of T1 when they could have had cable or dsl for 1/100th of the price. Nice going MS... they always seem to find the right aliance.
here's a translation of the full article, to the best of my anonymous coward capacities. English is not my native language (but Swedish is).
------------
Microsoft admits voting coup at SIS
Microsoft admits that the company is behind the voting coup at SIS where the document format OOXML became proposed as a new standard.
- Mistakes have been committed on our part, says Klas Hammar, Microsoft.
The majority of the 23 companies that showed up at the institute of standards SIS at the last minute to vote yes on making Microsoft's document format OOXML an ISO standard did so at the request of Microsoft.
- We have continuously informed our partners about the SIS process. What is happening, what the timeline looks like and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard, says Klas Hammar, business unit director at Microsoft.
- In a letter from Microsoft partners have been told that they were "expected" to participate in the ISI meeting and vote yes. As compensation they would receive "market assistance" and "additional support in the form of Microsoft resources".
Is this ethically defensible?
- This was a mistake and the letter was sent out by a single employee completely on his own initiative without any sanction whatsoever from Microsoft. He also quickly realized his mistake and tried to recall the letter, says Klas Hammar.
- If the person promises "market assistance" and other things he must supposedly have authority for such a promise. Was he a director of some kind and therefore in the position to take such a decision by himself?
- He was not a director and Microsoft has not sanctioned any such promises, says Klas Hammar.
- Have you made any more mistakes in this issue?
- Time will have to tell, says Klas Hammar.
- Do you understand the critique about "voting coup"?
- I can understand the critique about voting ways in a coup-like way. But I maintain that those who voted were well informed in the question and have their own interests in making OOXML an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
- Is it really ethic to act as you have and gather "voting cattle" to SIS?
- It has been a process where both those who have been for and against OOXML have engaged themselves very hard and mobilized their respective partners. And according to SIS there has been tactics from all sides, says Klas Hammar.
Microsoft should have an interest in standardization work being conducted in a good and credible way. Do you consider the current SIS rules for participation in a work group to be unfortunate?
- I am not knowledgeable enough in standardization to be able to comment on how a standardization work should be done, says Klas Hammar.
- Has this hurt Microsoft?
- Time will have to tell. But almost all customers we have spoken to think it is good if OOXML becomes an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
This was posted by Microsoft's Jason Matusow yesterday:
Matusow's Blog: Open XML - The Vote in Sweden
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Have I told you lately how much I love you?
After three decades of this.. I believe the only mistake was putting in email what was said in undocumentable private meetings and telephone calls.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Eivind.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
(See? Who's supposed to pay that? That means at least TWO employees... and counting.) The reports indicated that Microsoft didn't cut a check for entry fees. Instead it promised resources and future concessions to compensate for each company cutting a check. That is something One individual could do in a Corporation the size of Microsoft.
Now that we have that out of the way.... Of course it was a supported corporate move. What's more, it's part of a global strategy, the same thing was/is occurring in other markets, so they actually have a rogue salesman IN EACH MARKET
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
"By the book" means stacking the vote?
Quite frankly, it brings ISO into disrepute if representatives of either side rush people in like this. Clearly the rules should be modified. I'd say a year's membership ought to be required before any vote.
And it still doesn't change the fact that OOXML is an utterly useless standard whose only purpose is to give Microsoft the aura of ISO while still maintaining a document format that no one but them (or those that know Redmond's secret handshake) could ever actually produce a working product out of.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Now are you just making this up because it sounds reasonable, or are there actual laws to this effect? Don't take this personally, I'm just a natural skeptic.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act does not apply here. If they had paid government officials to vote their way, someone would have gone to jail, but in this case, they paid industry people to pack a government body and vote their way. This is not illegal, though incredibly immoral.
There are days when I want to see the corrupt, lying sons of bitches at Microsoft lined up against the wall and shot.
Standard Norge
for the attention of JCT-1 SC34 committee
Declaration in support of ISO acceptance of Open XML
I have been made aware that Norway is going to vote on the ECMA-standard Open XML some time in 2007, and that the Norwegian position in the matter will be decided in the Norwegian ISO committee (JCT-1 SC34) in Standard Norge. In this connection we feel that it is important that Standard Norge has knowledge of the position to this standard in the undersigned's activity.
By signing this declaration we want to point out the following to Standard Norge:
an ISO standardization of Open XML has large positive spin-off effects for IT industry in Norway, including our activity, our clients and business partners. Standardization will also have a large effect on future document standards in Norway.We base this assertion on the following considerations:
A standardization of Open XML will insure backward compatibility with billions of existing documents — other existing formats do not satisfy this criterion. Several coexisting standards are not unusual. For example, in imaging there are the formats JPEG, GIF, PNG and TIFF. These exist side by side and serve different and overlapping purposes to the advantage of users. OpenXML does not rule out the use of other standards such as RTX, TXT, ODF, PDF etc. ISO standardization will on the other hand benefit interoperability among these standards. By making Open XML an internationally approved standard, it is ensured that the standard can communicate with other standards.Therefore we wish, hereby, to express our full support for Open XML as an ISO standard.
AFNOR, the equivalent of the american INCITS, is going to say "no with comments" despite the tenacious pressure of Mircosoft France to modify the result in "abstention".
o urrait-refuser-l-openxml-de-microsoft-comme-standa rd-bureautique-international/
Source in french :
http://www.01net.com/editorial/357420/la-france-p
It's not like ISO standard status makes something good; witness IS-IS or the 7-layer thing.
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
I wonder if this single employee sent the same letter to companies in the other countries where the same thing happened?
/ The Arrow
"How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
What should we expect was said off the record?
Looking it as a whole, I have to really question your ability to understand what the word ethics means. Your argument appears to rest on the principle that if you follow the letter of the rules, you are behaving ethically. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion: you don't have ethics - you've replaced them with "avoiding criminal behavior."
A mountain out of a molehill, indeed.
I agree, the term "Open Standard" is used very inappropriately by RAND, M$ ... and many others.
...] concept/intent/ideals.
...) as a proprietary functional (not open) standard.
...) use of the term "Open" as false advertising to imply a non-proprietary product/standard. Companies obvious fraudulent use of the capitalized term "Open" is criminal misrepresentation of the now decades old technology term "Open". This proprietary flimflam on governments, citizens, businesses, and legal institutions is to subvert "Open-Market" dynamics, injure the "Open" market/industry sectors of all markets globally. It is unfair and a fraud for proprietary companies over the past five years (+/-2) to start using the term "Open" to dilute the competitive real value of the term "Open", which injures those business that require the term "Open" to have specific meaning and use in the "Global Open Markets". These activities by M$ and others smack of a "New World Order Communism (NWOC)" where ideas and property are all company-owned, cripples freedom, innovation, and economic forces.
...) welfare. Software patents and industry standards (using the term "Open") are an obvious attempt by totalitarian corporatist to inflate (by anti-competitive tactics) the proprietary property owners' wealth, while limiting/preventing [easement] access to public property by citizens.
.... Repeated misuse of the term "Open" by industry, governments, agencies, foundations ... should not be allowed. The term "Open" when used in medicine, science, engineering, communications, literature, music, art, technology ... has a definite (though unregistered) trademark value in business and international economics that is being intentionally misused by corporate-fascist to financially harm individual programmers/entrepreneurs..., the public good, "Open Economics", and "Open Businesses" globally.
Correctly stated it is simply an "Industry Standard", not "Open".
By accepted technologist and L/FOSS convention dating back to the 1980's the usage of the term "Open" is conceptually reserved to products/ideas... that closely follow the "Public Property" [GPL, "Open Content", "Open Standards"
If you want to use a two word phrase, then the correct phrase for a few decades now has been and still is an "Industry Standard" accepted by the "International Community" (maybe ISO, ASCII, IEEE
When M$ and others present proprietary content for use in a standard (legally) it is not "Open" and/or freely available to anyone, and by making basic (non-creative/non-original) technology requirements private/property is anti-competitive and anti-capitalist corporatist-welfare.
Marketeers' (M$, HP
Just like a public park, which is always paid for by the public or philanthropic individuals/foundations, the property is provided and developed for the public (benefit, competition, participation
"Open" when capitalized or in all caps (like an acronym) should have as much legal standing as the term "Microsoft", "California", "Navajo" "The United States Constitution" "Organic"
Revisionist-spin is never reality, but can be dogma for fools and "Exploiticians" to use for legal
property rights to the wind, they may even stupidly try to hold the wind for themselves.
M$ OOXML IPR will never be "OPEN"
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
I'm afraid you may be confusing Don Giovanni, Steve Ballmer, etc...
It looks to me as though they think ethics == avoiding criminal behavior
Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
Your first 4 sentences were accurate. After that, you turned into a raving nutjob.
Obvious fraud? Illegal? Criminal misrepresentation? The court system of the USA disagrees with you on all these accusations.
And, even if one did follow you through the larger paragraphs, I'm sure they too gave up at the mention of New World Order Communism.
Nice troll, though.
I suspect the mistake was writing something down when it should only have been hinted at in a conversation.
We still don't know what prompted this "realization" or when. (maybe when one of those partners made references to fraud?)
Was the SIS proactively notified before or after the vote?
any party wishing to take part in the national standards body is directly responsible for paying any related fees
Looks like the employee did not violate that directive, maybe he just read between the lines. Why not show the entire document?
Both Red Hat and Google (as well as IBM and MS) have a legitimate interest in standardization of several formats, most of the new yes members clearly joined for the purpose of influencing just one decision.
It is very poor manners to try to accuse your competitors of similar behavior (how can they claim to know Red Hats motives ?) when caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
A very poor attempt at spin, dont they have experts for that?
According to the press release, the reason for the decision was a technicality (that information suggested that one of the members had voted twice).
- Well, be that as it may, say I, but perhaps the uproar against the decision both in Sweden and internationally had something to do with. In any case, it sounds like a very fortunate technicality. ;)
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
WTF? They did exactly same in Germany, Australia, Hungary, Switzerland, Norway, ... How many there must be before it is "company policy"?
Molehill? Please ...
And DG was advancing that the statement was actually sensible. Note the bold-facing that he added, and the parenthetical comment "Mountain out of a molehill". DG agrees with MS retort - he is not merely reproducing it.
If DG can't distinguish between real ethics and SBish excuses, then clearly DG's concepts of ethics leave a lot to be desired. If I were to say that Stalin was a great and sensible guy, I think you would be able to question my morality.
That comment is more fun than mere mod points. You, sir, are a fine example of slashdot at its best.
Infuriate left and right
My understanding is that MS doesn't really care whether other people will implement the standard or not. Those 6000 pages they shat out and called a standard read like someone grepped the Office source tree for comments, removed all of the profanity and made the format serializable to xml.
In effect, the format seems to be horribly convoluted, since it evolved over the past 15 years (makes you admire the motivation of people working on OO.o or poi), and requires a large amount of reverse engineering. MS knows the standard is completely useless.
So why bother? This way they can tell governments like Massachusetts that their software won't create vendor lock-in - why, it's based off a standard approved by the ISO - and totally neuter a large body of arguments for switching away from Microsoft.
Why would you? No vendor lock-in (supposedly), already established (so switching has an inherent cost), etc etc. It's the best of both worlds. No politician - or major decision maker - will ever page through the standard themselves.
And if bad publicity on how shitty the standard is worked, we wouldn't be a few countries away from having the thing successfully fast tracked through the ISO in the first place.
Now that is what I call a true maffia^H^H^H^Hrket leader.
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
I received emails telling me how to vote (I quote and translate) "... to vote do click on the link below and write on the body: YES and your information ..." I think about how many companies affiliated to the CANIETI (the Mexican chamber for technology, telecommunications, etc.) followed the directions without even thinking about what they where doing.
Today Microsoft reach my limit on acceptance about what a company can do or should do to support their business assets. I was worried about receiving calls (from Microsoft) with instructions on how to vote (as YES) or receiving emails with direct links to an email to vote... until I received a new email from them. The email I received included a direct link which opens my email client and puts on the body 'A Favor' which means 'I AGREE' o 'YES'. The recipient for this email was the person in charge of the votes, but this link included CCs to Microsoft emails! ... What!? .... They want to know how many of us voted and what was the vote? Why? Is this illegal? Is this ethic? Why nobody here in Mexico sees this clear illegal and biased tactic to ensure a Mexico vote on YES to the standard?
I don't want to start a flame war over who is right, what standard is better or what the ISO should do with the OOXML. I'm against the techniques and wrongdoing of Microsoft regarding how they are manipulating the vote in Mexico and how nobody seems to see this as I do.
I ear this is happening in almost al the countries; I just don't want believe what I see.
PD. The only option, abstention. Why? because if you vote NO you should put the technical reasons why your vote was no and if microsoft fixes the issues your answer is YES anyway. If you vote with abstention then there is a way to limit the quorum required to approve the Micro$oft initiative.
- Omnia iam fient fieri quae posse negabam."
Maybe if Microsoft provided an open source program to read OOXML files and render them to a bitmap (or write a printable meta-language) it could be accepted as a "standard".
Until then, I'm calling this whole thing a farce - nobody other then Microsoft will ever be able to implement this "standard".
No sig today...
Dear AC,
... businesses, non-profit foundations, governments ... and prevent competition and innovation that promotes capitalist economics. So, M$ does fit the model of a "New World Order Corporate-Communism".
....
... it is just my way sometimes. I know you understand and agree that there is nothing "OPEN" other then the intent of M$ to injure companies using the term "Open" or at least minimize the earning value of the "OPEN" term and "Open" economic concepts/model.
... many universities globally are excellent at developing young minds to be proselytes, but reasoning, thinking, understanding ... alludes most (thank god not all) of the graduates, doctorates, and professors.
Is capitalism an economic or social model?
Is communism a social or economic model?
New World Order Economics appears (to me) to be a seriously flawed social model with feudal economics value.
"Industry Standard" is correct (you agreed!), M$ Marketeer-spin converts "MS Office Industry[OEM/OSD] XML (OIXML)" into "MS Office Open XML (OOXML)".
The only possible reason (I think) for this "M$ Marketeer-spin" is to perpetrate an "Open-Fraud" on a global market scale, dilute the financial clout that the term "Open" provides to small innovative software, research
I agree, there has been no legal standing set for the Business/Technology usage of the term "Open", but maybe there will be a few nations' citizens around the world that petition their governments and courts to strictly and legally define how the term "Open" can be used and limit marketing fraud.
I remember when M$ filed to have the term "windows" trademarked, now the term "Windows" is a trademark that is tightly and legally protected by M$. Try using the term "Windows" as a product name
I know you do not understand why I used the tirade/troll method for addressing this topic, but
Also, communism is a social model as is the phrase "New World Order" as used by politicians today and (close enough translation) by WWII fascist. Present "New World Order Corporate-Communism" would be a theory/system of social organization based on the holding of all property in pseudo-common, the actual ownership being ascribed to the corporate-community as a whole or to the corporate-state. Anyway, I appear to be reasonably/logically correct in what I stated, but many are blinded by revisionist-spin and the old withered laurels upon which their dogma is based.
The original wit/ethics of dogma/politics..., when regurgitated by any proselyte has less meaning, understanding, and no value to anyone. Harvard, Yale
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Reading between lines. Who are the "all customers" of Microsoft who think it would be "good"?? (*)
Does M$ still sell anything directly? I doubt it.
That leaves us with only option: the "customers" are partners/channel partners of M$ who do real deals selling hardware and OEMs. Shortly - partners.
Now, the phrase "almost all [snip]partners[/snap] we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard" as opposed to original quote sounds logical: for M$'s partners OOXML being a standard means more sales.
(*) I was alarmed by the phrase, because when refusing to implement some features, M$ always refers to the mythical customers who did not ask. You know, all internet - blogosphere and magazines included - retell story that feature is demanded by many many users. But then M$ PR droids come out and say: "we see no customer demand." "We see" part is pretty clear - they "see" only what they want to see. But the "customer" part was always puzzling.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
Note that the translator says "one of the participants of the working group cast more than one vote ."
How about MS sweden making almost 20 votes, most by proxy? that is also covered by that translated line.
And yes nobody broadcasted an article on this, though the business section of a national paper did raise the issue
"Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy