Heinlein Archives Put Online

For real? by commlinx · 2007-09-20 21:15 · Score: 2, Funny

Or was permission to publish just a Grumble from the Grave?

Re:For real? by arivanov · 2007-09-20 22:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

He realised the "value" of such archives much more than other people.

Just read the Lazarus rant in "Time Enough for Love" when he understands for the first time that his pearls of wisdom are being recorded.

So I think he is more likely laughing than grumbling. After all he said (though Lazarus): "Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil."

--
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Re:For real? by networkBoy · 2007-09-21 01:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

True.
He also put in his bequeathing to UCSC that there was one work not to be published... Ever. I haven't the time to search the archive to see if it's there, and at the moment the title escapes me, so I'll have to dig in my annual collection and look up the title (My most prized copy of ?compton's SF? some rag that was carrying RAH's first serials.)

Anyway, I hope they honor his wishes about this. He declared it his single worst story ever, never to be re-printed. He's fairly spot on in his assessment.
-nB

--
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Re:For real? by Walt+Dismal · 2007-09-21 03:01 · Score: 1

Re first serials, did you by any chance mean Colliers? I think he had early work in that magazine.
As for the worst story, Heinlein wrote one, under a pseudonym, for The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction that was about a talking alligator and oh boy was it a bomb. He was trying to be light and comedic but it was like tapdancing in lead shoes. It may well have been that story.
Re:For real? by networkBoy · 2007-09-21 03:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

Yes that would be it, but I fail to remember the title. My collection is sealed in an inert atmosphere*, so getting to it is dicey.
-nB

*Yes I'm a geek, but old ragstock is known for decay, thus a Lucite box, purged with argon.

--
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Re:For real? by Mursk · 2007-09-21 03:50 · Score: 4, Informative

I think you are referring to "the stinkeroos." From James Gifford's RAH FAQ:
The so-called "stinkeroos" (Heinlein's own term for them) are three short stories, all dating from the first phase of his writing career, prior to World War II. With one exception, they have never been reprinted since their original pulp appearances. Heinlein refused reprint requests and never included them in any of his own collections, and his literary executors continue this policy. It is unlikely that any of them will ever be reprinted.
The stinkeroos are:
"Beyond Doubt" (Astonishing Stories, Apr 1941)
"'My Object All Sublime'" (Future, Feb 1942)
"Pied Piper" (Astonishing, Mar 1942)

--
"This thing does science so hard, you say, 'I've never seen that much science.'" -Sam
Re:For real? by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:36 · Score: 5, Informative

Looks like they are in there:

"Beyond Doubt" (Astonishing Stories, Apr 1941)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=13

"'My Object All Sublime'" (Future, Feb 1942)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=8

"Pied Piper" (Astonishing, Mar 1942)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=9
Re:For real? by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:44 · Score: 1, Insightful

No, not for real, nor a grumble from the grave.

Browse or search through the indexes of available Archives' documents. Select those documents you wish to buy and add them to the Cart.

This is just a disgusting move by his heirs to make money from a dead man. If you hear a rumble from his grave, it's him spinning in it.

Again, I'm just disgusted. If my family uses me like that after I'm dead (and I use the word "use" in the harshes sense; as in "I've been used and abused") I'm going to haunt them!

mcgrew

PS- Did I mention my disgust? We seriously need to reform copyright; most of Heinlein's works date back to before I was born, and I'm over the half century mark. none of Heinlein's works should still be under copyright.

I'me even more disgusted with "my" congress (AKA "corporate lapdogs).
Re:For real? by Maelwryth · 2007-09-21 07:31 · Score: 1

Not this Pied Piper?

--
I reserve the write to mangle english.

A practice that could save us from rereleases. by CRCulver · 2007-09-20 21:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

I wish more writers' archives would just be put online, so we can just simply see what they left out or what work was unfinished at the time of passing without a plethora of new material for purchase. For those of us who loved Stranger in a Strange Land as it was, the release of the uncut version turned something nice into something overlong. And don't get me started on the Dune sequels, where the notes of Frank Herbert, instead of just being shown as they were, were turned into dreck by his son and an airport paperback writer.

Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 23:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

And don't get me started on the Dune sequels, where the notes of Frank Herbert, instead of just being shown as they were, were turned into dreck by his son and an airport paperback writer."
Does anyone have any proof that this "notes" actually exist? The prequels are so chock-full of contradictions with the original series and - to put it bluntly - flat-out stupidity that I've always suspected that the notes were either too scanty to form a full work; largely ignored by Herbert & Anderson in favour of their own juvenile ideas; or a complete fiction invented to make a quick buck.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 00:07 · Score: 0

To be fair the Dune series was chock full of contradictions, and dropping in quality fast, before his son took over. But if Frank Herbert had thought the "notes" were anything vaguely worth turning into a book he would have pocketed a nice fat publishers advance before he died.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by stevey · 2007-09-21 00:10 · Score: 1

My understanding is that there are notes in existence which describe how Frank was going to end the series after the cliffhanger ending which happened in Chapterhouse Dune - but that these weren't discovered until part-way through the prequel-writing process.

I recall from the various introductions to the prequels that Brian was trying to "ease himself into" the final novel by writing the prequels. (Poor justification IMHO.)

Personally I've given up reading the prequels, but I'm still hoping that the ending of the series will be readable and a good end. (My hopes aren't high though.)

Its hard to think of anybody who has done a good job at "carrying on" a series once the primary author has died. Even Christopher Tolkien has done as much bad as good ..
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by tillerman35 · 2007-09-21 00:21 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Personally, I'd rather we tackle the issue of "collaborations" with aging popular writers. Is there some sort of old-folks home where we let Lackeys prop up ex-best seller senile octogenarian authors whose "hair is gray but eyes are still green" so that younger talentless hacks without the ability to come up with an idea on their own get to "help" gramma write another book so that her grandkids can buy another Mercedes with the royalties?

I've even seen one edition that touted itself as being "FROM THE MIND OF [AUTHOR HERE]" which I can only interpret as "gramma could only drool and reminisce about the time she was six and her pet cat blouncy used to get in 'ever so much trouble' so we nodded, patted her head, and ran with that idea as inspiration for another Darkover book." Actually, it wasn't the Darkover series, but you get the idea.

Sadly, neither practice is likely to end soon. The vast majority of readers are either too stupid to see past the marketing gimmic or idiodic fanfic enthusiasts who are just waiting for that call from the author's agent telling them that the Harry-Potter-on-Darkover mashup they wrote is just the thing that could sell. /Off to write a Harry-Potter-on-Darkover mashup...
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by mdm-adph · 2007-09-21 00:51 · Score: 1

And don't get me started on the Dune sequels, where the notes of Frank Herbert, instead of just being shown as they were, were turned into dreck by his son and an airport paperback writer. THANK YOU. Thank god I wasn't the only one who noticed this -- the whole time I'm reading the few prequels that I actually did read, I'm thinking, "Man, it's like someone took a book that Frank Herbert had written and got some two-bit hack to copy it over, only he left out all the good bits."

I always thought it amazing how I was able to read God Emperor of Dune in five days, yet Battle of Corrin took four frickin' weeks. The book was utter shite, and I'm being as nice as I can be in saying that.

--
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by shystershep · 2007-09-21 00:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Its hard to think of anybody who has done a good job at "carrying on" a series once the primary author has died.

I certainly don't disagree with you, but in all fairness there aren't all that many 'primary' authors that have done a good job carrying on a series. The obsession with never-ending series of books in scifi & fantasy almost guarantees that you will lose interest and/or be disappointed by the quality long before the series is finished. A standard trilogy may not be enough, but if there are more than 6 or so books, my advice to the author is to stop trying to milk it, give it a rest, and move on to something fresh.

There are exceptions to this, but frankly I can't think of any offhand.

--
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by shystershep · 2007-09-21 01:07 · Score: 1

One exception just came to mind, although I'm sure I'll think of others as soon as I hit 'submit': Robin Hobb's Farseer books. Nine books, written as three trilogies (the first two of which, at least, could stand alone). Excellent books, with the ninth just as hard to put down as the first. She is currently in the middle of a new trilogy, I believe, completely unrelated to the previous series -- so there is at least one author that knows when to leave well enough alone.

--
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by ConceptJunkie · 2007-09-21 01:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

There are exceptions to this, but frankly I can't think of any offhand.

I can: Terry Pratchett.

While the Discworld books have evolved significantly from essentially a ripoff of Douglas Adams to the best fantasy humor ever written to painstaking social commentary and satire, even a spinoff into children's stories that are largely as good as the "main" series, after something close to 30 books, I think he's still doing a great job. Of course, they're not coming out twice a year, each thicker (and better) than the last like they were in the 90's, but I think man is still on a roll.

--
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by dargaud · 2007-09-21 01:59 · Score: 1

A little bit offtopic, but about the Dune prequels, I read the first one that came out and had to force myself to finish it. Never read the others. Awful stuff. Then I heard about the new sequel by the same two 'writers', supposedly based on good notes by Frank. Is that any better and worth reading ? I though the original Dune series ended with a nice if mysterious wrap-up. Some kind of liberation of the characters by their author into the world at large. Not sure if I want this spoiled...

--
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by shystershep · 2007-09-21 02:21 · Score: 1

There you go - I knew there were other obvious examples I was missing.

--
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by marcsherman · 2007-09-21 02:36 · Score: 1

There are exceptions to this, but frankly I can't think of any offhand. Um, Heinlein's own Future History?
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by jahudabudy · 2007-09-21 03:08 · Score: 1

Just to throw in my two cents, I think Steven Brust's Taltos series remained quite strong up until the end (if his last one was in fact the end). His various "spin-offs" from that series are also all very good.

I think an example that supports your point is Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series. The first 5 were quite good. He then proceeded to stumble around in the next 2 or 3 books, trying to drag out the original story line with an obvious lack of direction. Around the same time he was writing these rather terrible extensions to a successful series, he also managed to begin a couple of other good series, D'Shai and Keepers of the Hidden Way. It is a clear example of an excellent writer doing well with fresh material, while churning out crap trying to milk his old, stale stuff.

--
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by stevey · 2007-09-21 03:45 · Score: 1

Definitely agreed on Brust's books. I've bought all of them, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing what comes next (after Dzur).

Another author who has done a decent job has been Terry Goodkind. His "Sword of Truth" series has kept moving in a nice fashion, after falling into "monster of the week" towards the middle of the series.

And to add more agreement - Terry Pratchett can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned! I have all of his books, including the childrens ones, and whilst the style has changed over the years it hasn't gotten worse.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by jo42 · 2007-09-21 03:47 · Score: 1

The sequels create a rather larger vacuum than the prequels...
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by TheLink · 2007-09-21 03:52 · Score: 1

I agree, his first book was not bad, but in the subsequent books the Discworld universe and style really came to life - Cohen the Barbarian, Death getting more character, etc.

Much like the first drawings of Asterix and Obelix (or some other cartoonists). They were ok, but "not that different from the others", then it's like the artist/writer suddenly gets into gear ;).

And the stuff moves from blah/good to great.
--
- Too many replies beneath your current threshold
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Dun+Malg · 2007-09-21 03:54 · Score: 1

While the Discworld books have evolved significantly from essentially a ripoff of Douglas Adams... O please. It's the same style of dry humor, but completely different subject matter. Adopting the style alone is hardly something that can be called "ripping off". It's also particularly hard to label something a ripoff when it's several orders of magnitude funnier and better written than the supposed ripped-off source. Douglas Adams was humorous, but his writing was disjointed and bizarre, like he never quite recovered from the coke parties of the 70's.

--
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Reziac · 2007-09-21 03:59 · Score: 1

Hear hear!! I'd read everything Frank Herbert wrote, including his non-SF. And then I came to the first Brian And Frank novel.... I could tell *to the word* where Frank left off and Brian began. Problem is, Brian Herbert is a DULL writer. Not so much bad as -- dull. It take serious effort to slog through his stuff. After several brave efforts, I gave it up.

--
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by MrNiceguy_KS · 2007-09-21 05:10 · Score: 1

Pratchett was the first name that sprang to my mind as well. I think the big secret to Pratchett's staying power is that, while the Discworld books are a "series", they are not a serial. Each subsequent book stands alone, though it will refer to earlier books. You don't necessarily have to read them in order, and when you finish reading one, everything is wrapped up instead of leaving you with a "buy the sequel" cliffhanger.
I do disagree about the Douglas Adams ripoff comment, though. Much as I love Douglas Adams, I think Pratchett is a better writer. Not just funnier, which some may debate. Pratchett does a much better job of storytelling, from the plot to the characters. I'm not saying that he's the greatest author ever to put pen to paper, but I've never read anyone else who could combine a good story with humor so well. (And I'm certainly listening to any suggestions anyone may have.)

--
Redundancy is good And also good.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:17 · Score: 0

Robin Hobb had a good run, but I personally thought the third trilogy was a massive failure and simply stopped reading about 2/3 of the way through the first volume.
Soldier's Son so far has been great, I'm glad she was able to move on from the Farseers.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by raddan · 2007-09-21 05:56 · Score: 1

So true.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 06:59 · Score: 0

Just to throw in my two cents, I think Steven Brust's Taltos series remained quite strong up until the end (if his last one was in fact the end).

He's definitely not done. If he doesn't die before finishing or lose interest in writing the series, he should theoretically write 17+1+1 Vlad books. These would be one book for each of the Dragaeran Houses, plus Taltos (already written, breaks the usual choice of a House for a book title and theme), plus the last book which IIRC he's stated will be titled "The Last Contract".

Or maybe I'm misremembering and he plans to write just 17. 17 is a Significant Number, after all. (Ever noticed that all the Vlad books have 17 chapters? And the Dumas pastiches 34?)
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by jgrahn · 2007-09-21 08:00 · Score: 1

[Dune prequels suck] THANK YOU. Thank god I wasn't the only one who noticed this

Good that you noticed, but if you had been a bit more clever, you'd never have considered reading the prequels in the first place. The Dune books were one giant Frank Herbert monologue; noone can take over such a thing without damaging it.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by Judebert · 2007-09-21 08:11 · Score: 1

Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern. Her characterizations and development are wonderful. And her son Todd has taken up the mantel admirably.

I only wish Elizabeth Moon could've done the same for her Ship Who Sang series.

--
For geek dads: Contraction Timer
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by momerath2003 · 2007-09-21 12:59 · Score: 1

I dunno. I read the first two and thought they were hilarious. Then I picked up a couple of the later ones, and thought they were mildly funny, but were all kind of the same and copied from the original. So I'm not a big fan.

--
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by ConceptJunkie · 2007-09-30 01:43 · Score: 1

Go back and re-read the first two Discworld books. There was the same disjointed and bizarre style, lots of fantasy elements being tossed around rather higgledy-piggledy, not much of a plot per se, but just a bunch of stuff happening... I think the criticism is valid. Not to say they aren't bad... they're decent books that I really enjoyed and set the stage for much better work. However, it wasn't until "Equal Rites" that he made the quantum leap to the level of quality we've enjoyed since.

--
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases. by ConceptJunkie · 2007-09-30 03:31 · Score: 1

I guess I should have been more specific: I think the Adams comparison holds, but only for "The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic". With "Equal Rites", I think he made a quantum jump in quality (and his stuff was pretty good to begin with) to become the top-notch story-teller we all know him as.

--
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

TANSTAAFL by Vinegar+Joe · 2007-09-20 21:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

As usual.

--
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes

Re:TANSTAAFL by smee2 · 2007-09-20 21:25 · Score: 1

Sadly - nary a free snippet to be had. *sigh*
Re:TANSTAAFL by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 21:31 · Score: 0

This is the best news that I've heard in forever. I've been a huge Heinlein fan for about 10 years, and I thought I had read almost everything he'd written, but there's definitely some new stuff here (not even counting the personal stuff and random drafts).

It's definitely appropriate (if a little disappointing, in an i'm-a-cheap-bastard sort of way) that it's not free, I saw the bit about credit cards and TANSTAAFL slapped me right in the head.

I wish there was a way to buy large collections all at once though...I'd love to have all of the novels and short stories without clicking for each one (and it says that you shouldn't do more than 4 or so in one order...) Maybe I'll just wait for the torrent and then anonymously send them some $$.
Re:TANSTAAFL by montyzooooma · 2007-09-20 21:43 · Score: 2, Informative

I saw a post on rec.art.sf.composition a while back from David Langford talking about his efforts to get his work removed from Scribd.com - in one of the replies another author (James Nicoll? maybe...) said he had difficulty getting other works removed so he contacted the lawyers for Heinlein's estate and within 3 days they'd had every reference to him taken down. Then I saw this and thought, god that's odd that they're putting this all up online for free.... well doh.
Re:TANSTAAFL by grimflick · 2007-09-21 00:20 · Score: 2, Funny

Electronic commerce! Sigh, I am only an EGG

--
'Only a Barbarian believes that his tribes customs are the laws of nature'
Re:TANSTAAFL by Chapter80 · 2007-09-21 01:03 · Score: 3, Informative

Hilarious!
I saw your acronym, and (once again, clueless me) I had to look it up in Wikipedia. And it's a Heinlein reference!
TANSTAAFL is an acronym for the adage "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch," popularized by science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein in his 1966 novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which discusses the problems caused by not considering the eventual outcome of an unbalanced economy. This phrase and book are popular with libertarians and economics textbooks. In order to avoid a double negative, the acronym "TINSTAAFL" is sometimes used instead, meaning "There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch".
I take it they are charging for access?
Re:TANSTAAFL by mangastudent · 2007-09-21 01:44 · Score: 1

I take it they are charging for access?

It would be exceedingly odd if they weren't.
They said the average cost per page was one cent.
I know from serious professional experience (designed, wrote and built 6 and 7 figure systems that scanned millions of pages) that the scanning and associated cleanup, rework and organization required would not have been cheap. No idea what it would cost today (been out of the field for a decade), but a lot of it is labor, and that isn't getting any cheaper (not for quality work).
And the faster scanners would be just too harsh on the originals, they probably did much of it page by page on flatbeds (ouch!).
Re:TANSTAAFL by Chapter80 · 2007-09-21 01:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Agreed.
But if the Estate (or descendants) "invested" in the scanning, and then released the manuscripts a little at a time, via torrents or free / cheap hosting services, it's possible that they would re-energize the market for his books.
I have never bought a Heinlein book, and don't intend to pay to download stuff. But if I were exposed to it via a free website, it might just pique my interest enough to buy a book (which has happened NUMEROUS times to me with technical books).
Then again, they might be executing the iPhone "skim the market" strategy. First, you pick up the early adopters at a premium price. Then you open it up for free / cheap, and try to use it to drive other business (like book sales).
Re:TANSTAAFL by wilder_card · 2007-09-21 02:06 · Score: 1

If you have never read a Heinlein book, at _least_ buy, steal, download, or borrow The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. There are lots of other great ones, but that's my best recommendation. Doing anything else first is a waste of your time.
Re:TANSTAAFL by Chapter80 · 2007-09-21 02:33 · Score: 1

Wow. OK, I'll try to open my mind a little. I've done without it for about 50 years. Can't imagine it's that great!
What you are suggesting involves three things I really don't care for: Reading novels (passive activity), fiction (stuff that didn't happen), and "Science" fiction (stuff that can't happen). It sounds horribly boring, un-challenging, and something that will cause my eyes to roll.
I'll report back. I'm sure I am in the minority on Slashdot, but I never really "got it". I'd rather read a school history book or a technical manual!
Re:TANSTAAFL by darjen · 2007-09-21 02:49 · Score: 1

For what it's worth, if anything, I'm not much of a reader of fiction myself. But even so I can see how value and wisdom can be gained from reading fiction books. Normally I stick to online publications and non-fiction as well. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of the only fiction books I've read in the last couple years, and it was well worth my time.
Re:TANSTAAFL by AshtangiMan · 2007-09-21 03:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

Science fiction as a genre does not at all mean "stuff that can't happen". More often it is a genre that allows examination of the human condition in a new context, so that we can see what absurd animals we are, both individually and especially collectively. SF has in my mind gotten a bad rap in the last 3 decades, and even early on the pulp stuff that claimed to be SF was not. These others fall into more of the Space Western category. While I am a fan of the TV "SciFi" genre, Battlestar Gallactica, Buck Rogers, Space 1999, these are not related to SF of the likes of Heinlein, LeGuin, and others. But I also agree about novels, and more or less about fiction in general. My favorite Heinlein novel is "Job" . . . very funny, and, as I was raised Catholic, very rebelious feeling.
Re:TANSTAAFL by Obyron · 2007-09-21 03:40 · Score: 1

I definitely agree with this assessment. Also, don't miss Stranger In A Strange Land. It's probably had more of an impact on me than any book I've ever read, aside from maybe Atlas Shrugged (and I'm not a Randroid! I pick and choose the bits I agree with ;)). However, "Stranger" definitely has more value in terms of impact per page.

Sadly I don't think I've ever bought a Heinlein book at actual price. I'm a big fan of used bookstores, and I've picked up all my Heinlein books at such places. Do used bookstores still pay royalties I wonder? At any rate, Heilein is not to be missed. I've always thought that simply pigeonholing him as "just Science Fiction" is like saying that Neil Gaiman's Sandman was "just a comic book."

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--Obyron
Re:TANSTAAFL by Mister+Whirly · 2007-09-21 04:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

SciFi to me usually means commentary on religious, political, or just plain social aspects. SciFi has always been a good way for authors to express dissent without having to address the actual subject literally, and avoid trouble with the authorities. Stories about "stuff that can't happen" I would consider in the Fantasy genre. And exercising your mind and imagination is hardly a "passive" activity. It is what will keep your brain from turning into mush as you grow older.

--
"But this one goes to 11!"
Re:TANSTAAFL by Sancho · 2007-09-21 04:19 · Score: 1

You've confused "Fantasy" with "Science Fiction." Generally speaking, good science fiction could happen if the technologies emerge. Fantasy, generally speaking, couldn't.

Then again, there is that saying about technology and magic....
Re:TANSTAAFL by jtroutman · 2007-09-21 04:35 · Score: 4, Insightful
Here's a list of "Science fiction (stuff that can't happen)"
- Deep ocean submersibles
- Satellites
- Rockets
- Robots
- Portable computers
- Virtual reality
- Surveillance systems
- Genetic alteration and modification
- Holographic cloaking
- Video Communication
The fact is, most of the wonders of modern science were predicted in the writings of people like Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, Wells, and Clarke.
--
I stole this sig from a more creative user.
Re:TANSTAAFL by zippthorne · 2007-09-21 05:45 · Score: 1

I imagine the flatbed scanner option gets significantly more bearable if you slice off the spine and load the pages (sans cover) into the auto sheet feeder. Assuming they didn't already have access to unbound copies or original manuscripts. The worst part is probably the cleanup.

--
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Re:TANSTAAFL by mangastudent · 2007-09-21 06:02 · Score: 1

Well, it doesn't sound like most of these pages they are releasing are from actual published editions, but (in this release) are manuscripts along the way to that final edition. I.e. most would be individual unbound pages from a typewriter, very possibly with editing markup.
That material will be on likely paper with acid, in not too great shape, and needing more gentle treatment than the Auto Document Feeds (ADFs) I'm familiar with (none of which were designed for this sort of work).
I'm assuming that all of these are images, so cleanup is just running them through a program like ScanFix and then making sure the entire process through then is of acceptable quality, and rework (rescan) when not.
Are you thinking of taking images one step further to ASCII or the like?
That would only be done for the final version, and in the case of e.g. stuff that had been published by Baen they could probably get the softcopy from them (a long time ago Baen the man was looking into making camera ready copy from normal laser printers, so I would imagine they kept copies).
Re:TANSTAAFL by porcupine8 · 2007-09-21 09:57 · Score: 1

I have never bought a Heinlein book, and don't intend to pay to download stuff. But if I were exposed to it via a free website, it might just pique my interest enough to buy a book (which has happened NUMEROUS times to me with technical books).
Let me introduce you to this wonderful new invention. It is called the public library. Here, you can borrow - for free - books of all types, including Heinlein novels, to do exactly what you say! Try them out, see if you like the book and the author, and then you can go buy it yourself if you'd like. Or don't! And just read every last book he wrote, without paying for a single one, from the library!
With the introduction of the "world wide internets," many libraries even allow you to search their catalogs online, see if they have the book you want, and reserve it - even have it shipped to the branch closest to you - without leaving your computer. Yes, stopping by for thirty seconds to pick the book up is a real pain, but so is reading a novel from a computer screen.

--
Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
Re:TANSTAAFL by The+One+and+Only · 2007-09-21 11:16 · Score: 1

You left out the most incredible example--waterbeds. Charles Hall, the inventor of the modern waterbed, was denied a patent because Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon, Double Star, and Stranger in a Strange Land all described waterbeds in enough detail to qualify as prior art.

--
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Re:TANSTAAFL by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 12:58 · Score: 0

What you are suggesting involves three things I really don't care for: Reading novels (passive activity), fiction (stuff that didn't happen), and "Science" fiction (stuff that can't happen).
So it's much better to read slashdot?
It sounds horribly boring, un-challenging, and something that will cause my eyes to roll.
Yes, I see your point. Completely different from reading slashdot.
Re:TANSTAAFL by Kingrames · 2007-09-21 15:22 · Score: 1

*cough* Anyone have the torrent link up yet?

--
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
Re:TANSTAAFL by virgil_disgr4ce · 2007-09-21 18:43 · Score: 1

*Wow.* Enjoy that myopic life you've got going on there. Seriously -- "passive activity?" Now look, if you don't happen to like fiction then fair enough, I don't care. But the reading of a good novel is so far from "passive" I can't imagine what you're talking about. Weren't read to as a child?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be insulting here. But I am just a little surprised.

--
Limina.Log
Re:TANSTAAFL by Mycroft_VIII · 2007-09-21 21:09 · Score: 1

That one happens to be a personal favorite stories(didn't chose my nick at random) by one of my favorite authors, I gotta second the suggestion.
His 'juviniles', while written for a younger audience, are also pretty good. He wrote for a younger audience, not down to younger audience.
otherwise yhis is pretty much a "me-too post".

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea

This links to a *STORE*, people... by pla · 2007-09-20 21:28 · Score: 5, Informative

You can skip the brief article and go straight to the archives.

...Where you can add any of Heinlin's works to your cart, for a low, low price. They take Visa, Mastercard, AmEx, and Discover.

Hey, if I link to the "complete" works of another great author on Amazon, can I make FP too? Or does it have to belong to some "special" collection selling out?

Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 21:35 · Score: 0

Hey, isn't infinite copyright cool ?
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by ThirdPrize · 2007-09-20 21:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

No one said anything about being free or public domain.

--
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by derrickh · 2007-09-20 22:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why does it have to be free? If you want to read Stanger in a Strange Land for free, whats stopping you from going to the library? If the $21 price tag on the Starship Troopers opus is too much, then head over to Amazon and get the novel for $5.
This whole 'everything should be free' movement is weird.

D

--
The first, last, and only tech news site on the net
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by speaker+of+the+truth · 2007-09-20 23:06 · Score: 1

Indeed. The perpetual copyright has inspired Heinlein to keep publishing these past 10 years, oh wait, no it hasn't. Its truly sad to see Congress beholden to major corporations to such a degree that they'll enact unconstitutional laws.

--
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by badfish99 · 2007-09-20 23:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by bit01 · 2007-09-21 00:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why does it have to be free?

By putting a price of even a buck on it you cut out the majority of the world's population.

If you want to read Stanger in a Strange Land for free, whats stopping you from going to the library? If the $21 price tag on the Starship Troopers opus is too much, then head over to Amazon and get the novel for $5.

You're being parochial. The US is less than 5% of the world's population. The european population is more than double that but the entire western world is still less than 25%. Not to mention children and other members of western society who can't afford even $5. Why should they go without because of broken IP law?

This whole 'everything should be free' movement is weird.

Actually, this whole 'everything should be paid for again and again' movement is the weird one.

---

It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 00:04 · Score: 0

You need money on Mars too. Try to grok it.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pla · 2007-09-21 00:27 · Score: 1, Insightful

No one said anything about being free or public domain.

When someone describes the works of a dead author going online in some archival form, "in an effort to preserve the contents digitally while making the collection easily available to both academics and the general public", the idea of "for free" implicitly tags along for the ride.

If you want to "preserve" an intangible and/or make it "easily available" to everyone, you don't charge for it. You give it away to anyone who will take it.

Furthermore, while I have no problem with rewarding an artist for their work, I do have a problem with continuing to pay them after they've died. I will never understand how the aristocracy managed to get the plebes to buy into the idea of leaving one's heirs a "legacy". For most of us, that means getting nothing, or worse than nothing - Thanks to modern medicine keeping people alive long after they should have died, more people today pass on massive debt than any sort of estate.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hercubus · 2007-09-21 00:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money
it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time
OTOH, current corporate perversions attempting to lock revenue streams in perpetuity are abominations
OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir!

--
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hercubus · 2007-09-21 01:11 · Score: 1

You're being parochial.

you're being shortsighted
sure, we all hate the corporate parasites currently sucking the life out of everyone and everything. but don't forget about the original author and his family who really are entitled to compensation
saying everything should be free for the children (THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) is jacked up, my $0.02

--
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 01:16 · Score: 0

Plus most of the time their heirs get shit, it's the publishing company, the so called "real" copyright holder, that gets all the money. Otherwise I would agree.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by CRCulver · 2007-09-21 01:25 · Score: 1

Why should his family be entitled? That's not how copyright used to work.

Even the idea that the author himself is entitled to something when copies are made is a fairly recent notion, limited to the West. For most of the history of the human race, artists made a living by patronage, and no one had any moral objections to people copying their works. The Roman poet Martial knew that his recitals were transcribed and sold in the marketplace without a dime going to him, but his only complaint was when these copies were sold under someone else's name.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pedestrian+crossing · 2007-09-21 01:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money

Such weak BS.

If an artist wants to take care of their heirs, they need to do like the rest of us and take care of their heirs with the money they earn while they are still alive.

Untimely accident? TFB, death sucks for all of us.

I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

--
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Convergence · 2007-09-21 01:38 · Score: 1

Given that he was born 100 years ago, and has been dead for 20, his kids would be about 70 and grandkids 40. Everyone has heirs who need money. Why, I'll have you know that my grandfather put the plumbing in the demolished building across the street, and I could certainly use money.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by j-pimp · 2007-09-21 01:40 · Score: 1

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money

it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time

OTOH, current corporate perversions attempting to lock revenue streams in perpetuity are abominations

OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir!

Ok here's an idea. How about we limit copyright to a period of lets say 20 years, and if authors want to take care of there kids they have to invest a portion of their income during that 20 years. I work for the man, and thats how I plan on taking care of my kids. Of course I specifically don't want to help them too much after college. I believe in making them go out on there own, and charging rent that is cheaper than market value but not insignificant if they wish to remain living with me.

--
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by vrmlguy · 2007-09-21 01:58 · Score: 1

OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir! I suspect you meant to say, "OTGH". This, BTW, is an especially appropriate reference since LN made him an Admiral in "The Return of William Proxmire".

--
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by db32 · 2007-09-21 02:04 · Score: 1

Oh come off it. Look, I think its a little jacked up that so many things get tied up like this, however, if the original author wants it to be handled differently that is what a will is for. So when a parent dies who owns a business all the people off the street should be able to walk in and take whatever they want instead of the ownership of that business transfering? Please...this extremist view is just getting tired and only encourages the people with the power to fix things to not listen to such lunacy.

Now in this case...and in many others...the estate funds various prizes and educational funds and whatnot. So "waaa I want a free book instead of paying a dead author" is even less impressive when those funds are going to maintain worthwhile charitable causes. This is not the same as the Disney empire by a LONG stretch. And as has been otherwise noted, quit bitching and go support your local library, because once again, "waa I want a free book isntead of paying ad ead author" also hurts your local tax funded library when they can't show that people actually come to read the books.

--
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by badfish99 · 2007-09-21 02:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money
My grandfather is dead, but I am his heir. He did some good work 70 years ago but I am quite poor. Everyone must send me $10.

it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time
I would like that too. But my employer has told me that my pay will be stopped when I die. Evidently I am in the wrong industry.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Mikkeles · 2007-09-21 02:49 · Score: 1

'For most of the history of the human race, artists made a living by patronage, and no one had any moral objections to people copying their works.'

So how many artists have you patronised and arranged for their works to be given away?

--
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by CRCulver · 2007-09-21 03:01 · Score: 1

It's not my responsibility.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Loucks · 2007-09-21 03:20 · Score: 1

"more people today pass on massive debt than any sort of estate."

No. No they don't. At least in the US, your heirs are not liable for your debts. Perhaps next time you rant against "the aristocracy" you might do a bit of research first.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hercubus · 2007-09-21 03:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

my employer has told me that my pay will be stopped when I die. Evidently I am in the wrong industry

okay, so what industry are you in? should your heirs be paid for your enduring work at the Walmart checkout? at the Ford assembly plant? well, probably not. at Microsoft? hmm, maybe not. in your studio creating a new genre of painting / literature / music? yep, that's how we've been doing it for a while
what if you author an enduring work that continues to benefit society and parenthetically continues to sell. you are going to insist you stop being paid after some time limit? and what is that limit? two years? at your death? say you die the day after your first sale. so then is your wife screwed, your children screwed?
not like we're talking about 20 lines of Java code tossed off just after lunch, we're talking about a large personal effort creating an enduring work of art
you take a year off, create a work at the same level as Stranger In A Strange Land, then give it to me. for free. thanks! and when SciFi creates the mini series, tell them to take their filthy money and piss off, you don't want it. good for you! God forbid you spend your advance on a round the world trip (i assume you'd take an advance from a publisher, if not a cut of the sales) and then you snuff it on a beach in Thailand (sorry, killed you off in a tsunami). your year old child who was too young for the trip is screwed. thanks papa!

--
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hercubus · 2007-09-21 03:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

Such weak BS. If an artist wants to take care of their heirs, they need to do like the rest of us and take care of their heirs with the money they earn while they are still alive. Untimely accident? TFB, death sucks for all of us. I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

you can't see it because you're myopic. consult an optometrist
also, consider the life gamble someone like Heinlein makes. part of why he concludes he can make that gamble is the payoff, for him and his heirs, has high potential. you're talking about restricting and/or eliminating that potential
i know i like to keep my artists down. keeps 'em from getting uppity and acting like they deserve something for their effort

--
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pla · 2007-09-21 04:13 · Score: 1

At least in the US

Go West (or East) until you hit a large body of salty water. Keep going. Welcome to the rest of the world, not (yet) a wholly-owned and occupied subsidiary of Haliburton.

Perhaps next time you rant against "the aristocracy" you might do a bit of research first.

Good idea. And next time you tell someone the weather, look outside before vehemently insisting your bedroom remains rain-free.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by stanmann · 2007-09-21 04:16 · Score: 1

Not free is fine, but where is the total access payment option.

--
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by jra · 2007-09-21 04:20 · Score: 1

Heinlein never had children, with any of his three wives, but he does have a granddaughter, Amy Baxter.

Amy is the reason why Spider Robinson has seen fit to... not to "renounce" his opinion about copyright, embodied in his Hugo-winning short "Melancholy Elephants" (which asserts that eternal copyright would be culturally crippling), but to rethink the stance, and opine that perhaps not all the returns are in -- it was the one question (of 5 or 6) that I had to ask him whenever I finally met him which I did actually get asked at the Centennial.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Dun+Malg · 2007-09-21 04:35 · Score: 1

"more people today pass on massive debt than any sort of estate."

No. No they don't. At least in the US, your heirs are not liable for your debts. Perhaps next time you rant against "the aristocracy" you might do a bit of research first. Don't be an ass. Everyone knows you can't pass on debt directly to descendants, but it's perfectly common to pass on a debt-related financial headache. Simplified example: Parent dies with $20,000 left owed on the mortgage of a house with $200,000 market value, $8,000 owed on a brand new 4-door Mercury Medicare worth $4,000--- and $200,000 in assorted credit card debt from gambling and booze. At first you think you're inheriting a windfall on the house, but after spending hours adding it all up, you find Pa was $22K in the hole. You inherited only debt. You do not inherit the liability for that debt, but you inherited only debt, just as the GP poster said. It may seem like a pedantic technical nit pick, but then again, you were the one who wanted to be a big man and berate someone on technical grounds who was merely using a generalization for purposes of making a simple point.

--
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pedestrian+crossing · 2007-09-21 04:41 · Score: 1

... consider the life gamble someone like Heinlein makes.

Consider the life gambles you or I or anyone else has made.

The only guarantee anyone has a right to for their heirs is what they can earn and save during their lifetime.

You seriously think Heinlein was thinking about unearned income for his heirs when he wrote?

Explain to me why an artist deserves any more consideration for their life's work than any artisan, tradesman, or professional.

--
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 04:47 · Score: 0

I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

By that logic, every family who has a parent die must move out of the house they owned, give away any stock they bought, and otherwise disperse all former property of the deceased. Without profiting from it.

What a maroon.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hercubus · 2007-09-21 04:56 · Score: 1

Explain to me why an artist deserves any more consideration for their life's work than any artisan, tradesman, or professional.

market forces my friend. the supply of talent is small and someone talented should get what the market will bear, IMHO
ever buy a concert ticket? why would one pay that much for some smeggers to bang on whatever instruments? because they rock. would you buy a ticket to see me? no, 'cause i'm talentless. is it fair? is life fair?
why do Americans devalue teachers and overvalue ball players? because, as a group, we suck, we make bad choices. should ball players take a pay cut so teachers can make more? yes? great, so all we have to do is stop watching the games, stop buying the sports tickets, and sign up for higher property taxes
it's your turn now because i've already done my part

--
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by cdrguru · 2007-09-21 05:25 · Score: 1

So this is the real problem with poverty in the world? It is the collective debt that is owed to the masters by the peons that just keeps accumulating with each generation?

Wow, I guess if this is true then the world really does need to have these debt-hording masters taken down a peg or two. No wonder there was a minor dispute with the government of England that caused the colonies to break away. Sounds like it is about time for the rest of the world to follow suit if everyone is held up in ancestral debt. Probably the best thing we could do in Iraq would be to destroy the bank records to free these people from their debt.

Your description was a little vague... is everyone held to ancestral debt except the US? Wow. That would probably account for all sorts of things, like people dying to emigrate to the US, consistent poverty world-wide, and a general distrust of those not held in thrall to this ancestral debt.

Thanks for the useful information.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:40 · Score: 0

I am all for free stuf, most of all regarding great art, and I do place this Sci-Fi author in there.

But I questioned my principle on this, when I realized, that as an engineer I could build a factory that makes stuff, make 10 billion$ when living and still that factory could be passed on to my descendants for hundreds of years. If I do right they might even have nothing more to do than show up for a 30min. board meeting once a month.

But if instead I do research and make some great discovery, or God forbid write books or music, make the same 10 billion$, but whatever I built over the years MUST be free for all to do whatever they please with when I die.

I have no answer (right or wrong) to offer, it's just a strange feeling realy.
My own artistic mind say "when I die let put my creations in the public domain", but I am unable to think "First come first serve on my MP3 player factory".
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:52 · Score: 0

"My grandfather is dead, but I am his heir. He did some good work 70 years ago but I am quite poor. Everyone must send me $10. "

Is your grandfather's work still being produced and sold?
If not, then you cannot ask for money.

"I would like that too. But my employer has told me that my pay will be stopped when I die. Evidently I am in the wrong industry."

You certainly are. I'm sure however that your employer will continue to sell any products you had a part in designing after your death.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by nuzak · 2007-09-21 05:56 · Score: 1

If you think owing 20 grand on a mortgage of a 200K house is a bad debt, I'll be happy to take your 90% equity home off your hands for a shiny penny, even in today's screwed-up market.

You also don't have to accept an inheritance.

--
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 06:02 · Score: 0

"The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder."

Why? It's like saying Ferrari should give up all rights to their car designs after Enzo died.
Or that Microsoft should public domain any parts of their operating systems, if the programmer who wrote that bit died.

You pay money for dead people's work all the time.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by hawk · 2007-09-21 07:36 · Score: 1

>By putting a price of even a buck on it you cut out the majority of the world's population.

Yes, Heinlein clearly supported free lunches for everyone . . .

hawk
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by ZombieRoboNinja · 2007-09-21 07:57 · Score: 1

Want to know why authors continue to make money when they're dead? Because people continue to pay for their work once they're dead. An analogy: let's say you sell me a car and I agree to pay you $1000 a month for a year, and you die a week after we make the deal. Do I get the car for free? Hell no, I've got to fork over the cash to your heirs, even though you're dead.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Bitmanhome · 2007-09-21 09:05 · Score: 1

I do have a problem with continuing to pay them after they've died. I will never understand how the aristocracy managed to get the plebes to buy into the idea of leaving one's heirs a "legacy". It's really simple. Let's say you and your bandmates record a CD. Whether it's good or crap, the income profile will be the same: a wad over the first year or three, followed by a trick for the rest of the copyright term. Now, you can't live off a trickle, much less for 100 years. Wouldn't it be nice if you could collect all that future money right now, all at once? At the very least, it would keep you afloat til the next CD comes out.

You may not be able to live 100 years, but a corporation can. So you create a corp, have it estimate the future value of your CD, and give that to you in a lump. You can use the money now, and the corp takes care of recovering it over the subsequent 100 years.

Under this scheme, copyrights of any length will benefit the artist.

--
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pedestrian+crossing · 2007-09-21 09:08 · Score: 1

But that is during their lifetimes.

If the talented artist doesn't invest for their heirs' futures while they are alive, then what gives their heirs a special right to automatically benefit beyond the artist's lifetime?

Look, I understand talent and the market, but once you're dead, you're dead. It happens to everyone. There is no inherent right to an automatic inheritance that lives beyond you, artist or not.

--
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by pedestrian+crossing · 2007-09-21 09:13 · Score: 1

Car analogy FTW!!!!

People only continue to pay beyond the artist's death because of this little artificial construct called copyright.
It's not an inherent right.

It is a grant from society.

--
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by brre · 2007-09-21 09:15 · Score: 1

In Twain's day copyright lasted 30 years. He thought it was perfectly fair as long as all property expired in 30 years.
Every day of your life you pay money to dead people who have ownership of tangible things you use and benefit from. You complain about that too? No? Didn't think so.
You may not like paying money to dead people, but as long as you accept property and inheritance, pay you shall. There's no reason literary property should be any exception.
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by sysrammer · 2007-09-21 15:02 · Score: 1

In the story, humans living near the Moties system had adapted the OTGH saying (which Moties had adapted from humans) to "On the Third Hand".

mp

--
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Mycroft_VIII · 2007-09-21 21:33 · Score: 1

So artist's descendants somehow deserve TWO inheritances?!?!
Because that's exactly what you're arguing for.
If an artist does like Joe six-pack and saves some of his income and leaves that for his heirs
they get the same inheritance Joe's kids get AND ongoing payment for the same work over and over
again. Whereas Joe's kids only get the saved money. The don't another red cent each and every time someone sit's in the chair Joe made, or turn on the t.v.'s he sold or any such thing, yet the artist's kids do.
Now if you're arguing that artists' work, by virtue of it's contribution to culture and creative nature, deserve a greater reward, then wouldn't it make more sense to give them tax breaks or perhaps direct subsidy.
Believe me Heinlein's work is worth far more (imho) than he likely ever saw, I'm fairly confident the man was smart enough to save up a goodly sum during his lifetime.

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by multisync · 2007-09-22 04:22 · Score: 1

+1 Funny. Wake up, mods!

--
I don't care why you're posting AC
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-23 08:27 · Score: 0

The reason is that what you get paid for a book takes years to come in. You don;t get a monthly pay packet for services rendered; instead it is rather a risky undertaking that is more like an investment. For instance I have just written a book. It took me a year to write and in that time I earned very little. I will see the first royalty cheque in something like two years and the income I expect to make from it will come in over the following 3-5 years. It should do ok and will make working for nothing for a year worthwhile, but it won't make me rich. If I die tomorrow are you saying that my daughter should not benefit from the work I did this past year?
Re:This links to a *STORE*, people... by bit01 · 2007-09-23 20:52 · Score: 1

but don't forget about the original author and his family who really are entitled to compensation

Don't worry. They're worth millions.

for the children ... is jacked up

True ;-) We really should stop manufacturing property privileges for people who don't deserve it.

The major groups who've benefited from and inflated traditional copyright have been publishers and distributers, not authors. Publishers and distributers are adding less and less value every year so the value of copyright should adjusted to match that reality and they should dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

---

Like software, intellectual property law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.

No Free Lunch by norm1153 · 2007-09-20 21:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah, how depressing. Somehow from the news releases I also thought it'd be a freebie. After all, it's a publicly funded institution...

Grumble, mumble mumble.

Shoulda known.

Copyright concerns by Rhinobird · 2007-09-20 21:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

To avoid another Scribd-like fiasco, do they have permission from Heilien's estate to do this?

--
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla

Re:Copyright concerns by Anomalous+Cowbird · 2007-09-21 01:16 · Score: 1

. . . do they have permission from Heilien's estate to do this?

Why is it so much easier to post an uninformed question than to RTFA . . . ?
Re:Copyright concerns by commodoresloat · 2007-09-21 05:50 · Score: 1

Oh gosh you better call the foundation right away - I'm sure their lawyers never thought of this.

Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 21:52 · Score: 0, Troll

was just another second-rate American pulp writer with a fascist bent. Why are US universities spending money on this kind of operation?

Is it because the US has so few writers of any note that we have to exaggerate the importance of the few we do have? I thought we regularly had to import writers from Britain, or copy their work if we wanted anything half-decent, and any cultured half-competent Americans ran over there as soon as they could - people like Blish and Kubrick, for instance.

Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by CRCulver · 2007-09-20 21:54 · Score: 1

While Heinlein's writing sucks, Stranger in a Strange Land was highly popular in 1960s counterculture, and so he's an important writer for his impact, not for his talent.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 22:36 · Score: 4, Informative

Wow, are you kidding me?

Heinlein is one of the biggest, most influential names in science fiction. He won 4 Hugos, the very first Grand Master Award from the SFWA, and I'm sure a lot more awards that I don't know about. Fuck, at one time he was referred to as one of the "Big Three" names in sci fi (along with Asimov and Clarke).

Read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, Stranger in a Strange Land, and Citizen of the Galaxy. If you can't appreciate the genius that this man had after that, you're beyond hope.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by CRCulver · 2007-09-20 22:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Critical opinion has greatly turned against Heinlein after his death. Many writers have won awards only to be recognized as over-hyped later.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 23:12 · Score: 1, Insightful

I suspect that you're trolling me, but in case not: have you read his work? I find it hard to believe that someone could read his best works and come up with your summary of him. This isn't some small time author that was super-hyped and was later dismissed. He helped inspire an entire generation to dream and reach for the stars! He coined words which are now part of everyday speech! The man has a goddamn moon crater named after him in honor of his hand in popularizing space exploration.

If you haven't read his best works, you're really missing out. I urge you to give him a try, you won't regret it. Maybe you read one of his "bad" books and got a bad impression. Read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, it is my favorite book of all time, out of any genre.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by LukeWebber · 2007-09-20 23:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Heinlein was not exactly a literary genius, but he wrote a good yarn, and that's more than some geniuses could manage. More of a Rudyard Kipling than a James Joyce. But I know which I'd rather read.

It's a tragic shame that Heinlein lived long enough to write his later rubbish, which he apparently typed one-handed, with his trousers off. But his early stuff made good light reading. Fun and full of ideas.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 00:00 · Score: 1

The U.S. has (and has had) plenty of great writers. Pickings were a bit slim in the 19th Century, but the 20th made up for it: Faulkner, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Ralph Ellison, John Updike, Philip Roth, Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Theodore Dreiser, Sinclair Lewis, John Dos Passos, Richard Wright, Robert Penn Warren, Flannery O'Connor, Nabokov... I have never understood the fascination with Heinlein. I think he must have been "childhood reading" for a lot of people, and so gets a free pass. He's not a great writer. (Gene Wolfe--also an American--might be. Samuel R. Delaney--New Yorkese just like Wolfe--gets a lot of credit, too, though I've never liked his style.)
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Drasil · 2007-09-21 00:07 · Score: 1

Umm??? I thought Heinlein... was just another second-rate American pulp writer with a fascist bent.
You were wrong. Right-wing yes, but the Libertarian (good) kind if I read his books correctly. He did have some peculiar ideas, but you only become a fascist when you try and force your ideas on others IMO. Personally I love his work, at his best he was on a par with the likes of H. G. Wells and Aldous Huxley.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by technothrasher · 2007-09-21 00:27 · Score: 1

The U.S. has (and has had) plenty of great writers. ... Nabokov

Can you really call Nabokov an American writer? He only spent 20 of his 78 years in the US.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by wmelnick · 2007-09-21 00:53 · Score: 1

It did seem that he really had something interesting going at the beginning of The Number of the Beast, but where he had laid the foundation for some great writing in the future, he seems to have been overcome with a massive bout of.... well I'm not sure of exactly what, but everything from the 1980s until his death was questionable.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 00:59 · Score: 1

Well, he's usually counted "American" because he emigrated, and his greatest fame is in his English writing. He's an odd case, but I think (given his writing style and residence) you can call him an American writer. That's how he's usually taught, too.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by kalidasa · 2007-09-21 01:00 · Score: 1

Heinlein was a Douglasite.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Beyond_GoodandEvil · 2007-09-21 01:01 · Score: 1

Ug. Hemingway? You'll piss all over Heinlein but give the "dust on the dust on the dusty road", Hemingway a kudos. I have never understood the fascination with Hemingway. I think it was b/c it was "childhood reading" for a lot of people or maybe stories about bullfighting just seem cool.

--
I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Rob+the+Bold · 2007-09-21 01:15 · Score: 2, Informative

Heinlein was one of a handful of writers that created the genre of Adult Science Fiction. You can see the transition in his own works, like from the Juvenile literature of Starship Troopers to the Adult Stranger in a Strange Land. If it weren't for Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, et al, Sci Fi might still be "pulp" fiction and "boys books". BTW, I'm using "juvenile" in the library sense, not pejorative.

--
I am not a crackpot.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 01:18 · Score: 1

Actually, I personally dislike Hemingway, but he's generally recognized as a great writer. It's not so much his plots that make him so popular--his style was simply developmentally necessary to the later course of American fiction. Essentially, Faulkner and Hemingway were the creators of two latter-day American aesthetics: Faulkner's convolutions, heavy on description and atmosphere, versus Hemingway's spare and economical style. You can see the tension between the two in one of our present great writers, Cormac McCarthy--his earlier novels are plainly Faulknerian, while his latest (The Road) is almost devoid of excess detail.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by chthon · 2007-09-21 01:22 · Score: 1

Why does everybody always think that Heinlein was a fascist ?
I think **whoosh** applies here.
Heinlein was very good at playing devil's advocate, and while some of his stories seem very authoritarian, they always question something basic.
Having read most of his early stories up until his last, you can definitely see a shift in his backgrounds and ideas moving from so-called right to so-called left. But the main thing is that I always have the impression that what he writes, he continually questions (except for Glory Road and The Number of Beast, maybe. Fantastic adventure novels).
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Rob+the+Bold · 2007-09-21 01:27 · Score: 1

It did seem that he really had something interesting going at the beginning of The Number of the Beast,

I started reading Heinlein with the first paperback printing of Number of the Beast, about a year or 2 after the hardback was released. I chose poorly. I wasn't quite ready for the non-linearity and multiple narrative stuff. I'm glad I gave him another chance, going back to the much more accessible early juvenile works until my reading ability matured a little. And I think it was good when he pushed the envelope, even when the results were disappointing.

--
I am not a crackpot.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Rob+the+Bold · 2007-09-21 01:30 · Score: 2, Funny

More of a Rudyard Kipling than a James Joyce. But I know which I'd rather read.

Yes, yes, YES!

--
I am not a crackpot.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by dunkelfalke · 2007-09-21 01:36 · Score: 1

i have read a lot of sf in my 27 years of life.
it ranged from aleksei tolstoy to stephen baxter.

still, heinlein is one of the authors whose books i have absolutely hated, alongside with e.e. smith and edgar burroughs.

--
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by pragma_x · 2007-09-21 01:58 · Score: 1

The funny thing is that the subtext of the story practically pokes said counterculture in the eye with a pointy stick.

Don't get me wrong, I love that book and agree that it was influential. But having read it for the first time about a year ago, I was left with the notion that the whole work was as much about Heinlein's social commentary of the time, as it was about men from Mars that hail from an alien utopia. That commentary seems to extend both to both parts of the establishment/government, and hippie (and former beatnik?) culture clash.

That said, I hear that the story looses much in it's translation from the original Martian edition.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by pragma_x · 2007-09-21 02:01 · Score: 1

Er... "loses" much. Way to blow the punchline there Pragma.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by wilder_card · 2007-09-21 02:10 · Score: 1

He took a long a hiatus, then started publishing again with "Number of the Beast". It was, umm, not his best. Each of his subsequent books, however, was better than the last. I especially appreciated "Job: A Comedy Of Justice".
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Drasil · 2007-09-21 02:30 · Score: 1

K2Fe++Cl42(H2O)?
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 02:32 · Score: 0

You can see the tension between the two in one of our present great writers, Cormac McCarthy--his earlier novels are plainly Faulknerian, while his latest (The Road) is almost devoid of excess detail. What if he drew influence from neither? Would tension between the two still be evident? Feh. Pompous ass.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by wytcld · 2007-09-21 03:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

Heinlein was not exactly a literary genius ... more of a Rudyard Kipling
I love Joyce, but Kipling was the better writer, and thoroughly recognized in his time for it. Among Kipling's closest friends were Henry and William James. What Henry James did for expat Americans, Kipling did for expat Brits. Oh, you'll find far more English professors today who hold out Henry as the great genius, and Rudyard as pedestrian - but that's a temporary fashion, having nothing to do with their writing abilities, mostly a reflection of the fact that an American going to London to seek her or his fortune is currently respectable, while an English person's presence in India for the same purpose is not, just at present, seen as politically correct.

Heinlein knew he was writing in the style of Kipling - and Twain - the two best writers in the English language since Shakespeare and Milton. Heinlein knew their work intimately. Since Heinlein was describing outward-looking people and societies, people of the frontiers such as Kipling and Twain had written of, they were perfect models for him. Joyce, by contrast, is an example of European culture turned inward, during a period of great failures and retreat. And that's the problem with most of what passes for "literature" today - it deals in neurosis and failure rather than hope and success. Our scope should be wide enough to encompass both. And of the latter, Heinlein was the greatest author of the 20th Century. His sentences are deliciously-well crafted, too. His care in the details was as fine as Joyce's. It's just a different style. But he was perfect at it, especially in his first couple of decades.

--
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by nomadic · 2007-09-21 03:06 · Score: 1

Heinlein was not exactly a literary genius, but he wrote a good yarn

"Yarn"? What is this, 1925? Please tell me you're older than 75.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 03:27 · Score: 1

What? Your comment makes no sense. He drew influence from Faulkner; his first novels are set in the South and are clearly in the Faulknerian style. With Blood Meridian, he began to develop his own style to a greater degree and moved away from Faulkner's influence. I don't know that he's directly influenced by Hemingway, but he has moved to a spartan style of writing reminiscent of the writers who have been influenced by Hemingway. Look: just because something isn't science or isn't about computers doesn't mean it's all the territory of a "pompous ass." You can plainly look at books before Hemingway and after Hemingway and see the change in style. There's about a generation of lag, but he started a movement toward a simpler realistic style in American storytelling, just as Faulkner heavily influenced the Southern writers who followed him. Of course, IHBT, but this is such a common attitude that it gets on my nerves.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2007-09-21 04:17 · Score: 1

Perhaps the reason this is a common attitude is that these observations are of no particular significance to pretty much anything at all in the real world. Personally, I love reading books of many genres. I don't really pay attention to whether it comes from a 'great' writer or not, and I don't wrack my brain trying to read things into other people's work. Maybe that means I'm not doing it 'properly'. However, with rare exception, I suspect I'm reading it the way the author would have wanted: for enjoyment, and mild intellectual stimulation depending on the content.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 04:30 · Score: 0

If you count Nabokov as US on the grounds that he visited there, can Europe have Hemingway on the same grounds?
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 04:50 · Score: 1

Almost nothing we do is of particular significance in the "real world," given sufficient abstraction--does it apply to "eating food" or "producing children?" All of the things we enjoy are just part of an artificial culture, and it's a bit odd to say that art and the study of art don't have any significance when those have been around a very long time. Don't get me wrong: I understand that things like tech skills and science are more likely to make money, and am a tech worker, but I know a lot of smart people who have no aesthetic judgment and no familiarity with great works at all (or what might make them "great"), and I think it's a sad, unnecessary, and severely limiting outlook on the world. I have one friend who told me, for example: "I don't think reading is good. It makes you pessimistic."

Huh.

That said, I love books of many genres, but my lifetime is limited and I have to make selections. When I was younger, I read indiscriminately, Hardy Boys books and so on, but eventually developed more discernment. That's not to say I look for "great writers." I look for well-written books. Lois McMaster Bujold, Stephen Brust, George R. R. Martin, and Neal Stephenson are examples within the science fiction/fantasy genres. I keep meaning to get around to Gene Wolfe and Vernor Vinge, but I've been on a kick of reading Haruki Murakami recently, and am currently working on Céline's Journey to the End of the Night.

What I find offensive, actually, is that a few people I know (Kenneth, are you reading this?) read absolute garbage--Star Trek novelizations, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms novels, and so on--and then claim that there's no difference between them and, say, Martin. That sentiment is... alien to me.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Dun+Malg · 2007-09-21 04:53 · Score: 1

Actually, I personally dislike Hemingway, but he's generally recognized as a great writer. It's not so much his plots that make him so popular--his style was simply developmentally necessary to the later course of American fiction. So wait, you're saying Hemmingway technically sucked, but he can be considered to not have sucked because his development of a suck-ass, empty style was a necessary stepping stone to later works that don't suck? Personally, I think that means that Hemmingway sucked and that later writers learned from his mistakes. Hemmingway was a drunken ass who substituted vast chasms of missing detail (to be inferred by the reader, hoho!) for actual quality prose. Really, the "power" of Hemmingway is that reading his tripe you very clearly see how he was a hack writer that could have been good, but instead chose not to be.

--
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:00 · Score: 0

He more or less abandoned that as he got further into his writing career. It's absolutely plastered all over For Us, The Living, his first novel which was denied publication, but quickly disappears after that.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 05:20 · Score: 1

Perhaps they only learned from his mistakes, sure. I'm open to that idea, particularly since I don't even like the man or his writings. Just remember that "great" can also mean "influential."
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by syrion · 2007-09-21 05:29 · Score: 1

Nabokov lived in the U.S. for some years. As for Hemingway, well, anyone can have him as far as I'm concerned, if they really want him.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 05:36 · Score: 0

Yes, but you can stay awake while reading Heinlein. That said, the best SF *storyteller*, in my opinion, is
Jack Vance, bar none (and having read literally thousands of SF books and short stories).
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by commodoresloat · 2007-09-21 05:59 · Score: 1

It's a tragic shame that Heinlein lived long enough to write his later rubbish, which he apparently typed one-handed, with his trousers off. Demonstrating again how ahead of his time Heinlein was ... He anticipated what would become the dominant mode of reading and writing in the internet era...
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by raddan · 2007-09-21 06:02 · Score: 2, Funny

For the ultimate in neurosis and failure try Dostoyevski and Kafka. Holy shit. After that, I'll read anything. Supermarket porn. Crichton. Just make me happy again.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by anethema · 2007-09-21 13:49 · Score: 1

Did you read "The Moon is a harsh mistress" ?

I just simply can not imagine someone hating it. If so, what about it did you not like? Just to help me get a point of view.

--

It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by anethema · 2007-09-21 13:53 · Score: 1

As mentioned by others, he wasnt just some flare up author. He has won more Hugos than any other author as far as I know. Not something normally attributed to 'hype'.

--

It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by Oldav · 2007-09-23 11:57 · Score: 0

Henlein is Ok, if your reading is around the level of a 12 year old. Thats when I read them, now they seem plain silly. His infantile fascination with an armed society fits in with modern shoot-fist-and ask-questions-later US society, the rest of the world thinks its a joke. No Wonder he's popular on slashdot. .........
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2007-09-23 12:06 · Score: 1

You've given me some food for thought, and potentially (when 'waiting is filled) a new perspective.. Thanks for that.
Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein... by InfoVore · 2007-09-25 14:22 · Score: 1

For why many people are (in my mind rightly) fascinated with Heinlein, read Spider Robinson's "Rah, Rah, RAH!"

A brief quote:
How shall we repay our debt to Robert Anson Heinlein?

I am tempted to say that it can't be done. The sheer size of the debt is staggering. He virtually invented modern science fiction, and did not attempt to patent it. He opened up a great many of SF's frontiers, produced the first reliable maps of most of its principal territories, and did not complain when each of those frontiers filled up with hordes of johnny-come-latelies, who the moment they got off the boat began to complain about the climate, the scenery and the employment opportunities. I don't believe there can be more than a handful of science fiction stories published in the last forty years that do not show his influence one way or another. He has written the definitive time-travel stories ("All You Zombies--" and "By His Bootstraps"), the definitive longevity books (Methuselah's Children and Time Enough For Love), the definitive theocracy novel (Revolt in 2100), heroic fantasy/SF novel (Glory Road), revolution novel (The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress), transplant novel (I Will Fear No Evil), alien invasion novel (The Puppet Masters), technocracy story ("The Roads Must Roll"), arms race story ("Solution Unsatisfactory"), technodisaster story ("Blowups Happen"), and about a dozen of the finest science fiction juveniles ever published. These last alone have done more for the field than any other dozen books. And perhaps as important, he broke SF out of the pulps, opened up "respectable" and lucrative markets, broached the wall of the ghetto. He continued to work for the good of the entire genre: his most recent book sale was a precedent-setting event, representing the first-ever SFWA Model Contract signing. (The Science Fiction Writers of America has drawn up a hypothetical ideal contract, from the SF writer's point of view--but until Expanded Universe-- no such contract had ever been signed.) Note that Heinlein did not do this for his own benefit: the moment the contract was signed it was renegotiated upward.

You can't copyright ideas; you can only copyright specific arrangements of words. If you could copyright ideas, every living SF writer would be paying a substantial royalty to Robert Heinlein.

So would a lot of other people. In his spare time Heinlein invented the waldo and the waterbed (and God knows what else), and he didn't patent them either. (The first waldos were built by Nathan Woodruff at Brookhaven National Laboratories in 1945, three years after Heinlein described them for a few cents a word. As to the waterbed, see Expanded Universe.) In addition he helped design the spacesuit as we now know it.

Above all Heinlein is better educated, more widely read and traveled than anyone I have ever heard of, and has consistently shared the Good Parts with us. He has learned prodigiously, and passed on the most interesting things he's learned to us, and in the process passed on some of his love of learning to us. Surely that is a mighty gift. When I was five years old he began to teach me to love learning, and to be skeptical about what I was taught, and he did the same for a great many of us, directly or indirectly.

Spider wrote that essay 27 years ago and it still rings true today.

My take: if you aren't Reading For Ideas and you aren't really interested in seeing Competent Individuals Who Learn From Experience, you won't be interested in Heinlein.

I certainly understand why many people don't enjoy Heinlein's work. He was primarily a Story writer and an Idea writer. His specialty was writing ripping good yarns ala Kipling and Twain, each constructed to make you want to be more competent, more knowledgeable, more moral, and more proactive than you were when you read the first paragraph.

If all character, setting, and pointless cleverness is your thing go find some "real" literature. But if you want to know where humanity is headed and how to survive the on-rushing future, go grab yourself a double armfull of Heinlein.

-IV

--
"These laws they're passing won't even compile anymore, let alone execute." - anon

Increase the income... by Rick+Richardson · 2007-09-20 22:24 · Score: 4, Informative

Though the Archives is provided online for research and academic purposes, The Heinlein Prize Trust, Robert and Virginia Heinlein's estate, who made the online Archives possible is not a non-profit organization. Just as Heinlein always said he wrote for money (something you'll find is true if you read through his correspondence), the Trustees have a responsibility to not only maintain, but increase the income of the Heinleins' estate. This benefits us all as the mission of the Heinlein Prize Trust is to not only preserve Heinlein's legacy through projects such as this online Archives, but to support and encourage the human (that's us) expansion into space through commercial endeavors. The first Heinlein Prize of $500,000 was awarded to Peter Diamandis for just such commercial space endeavors.

Re:Increase the income... by bit01 · 2007-09-21 00:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

... This benefits us all...

No, this benefits only those who accidentally happen to have objectives similar to those of the trust.

---

Like software, intellectual property law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.
Re:Increase the income... by brown-eyed+slug · 2007-09-21 01:04 · Score: 1

... Just as Heinlein always said he wrote for money (something you'll find is true if you read through his correspondence) ...
Sorry, I can't afford to, so I'll have to take your word for that.
Re:Increase the income... by Red+Flayer · 2007-09-21 01:49 · Score: 1

No, this benefits only those who accidentally happen to have objectives similar to those of the trust.
No, this benefits those who purposely have objectives similar to those of the trust as well.

Just for the sake of completeness... :)

--
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai

I'm a fanboy but... by The+Mutant · 2007-09-20 22:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

I fear this is for the hard core only.

I was hoping to get downloadable versions of all his books that I read as a kid, especially some of the more obscure titles, and as I read them.

Don't get me wrong - this is very cool, but we're not talking the finished product here, but all drafts leading up to the galley that was submitted to the publisher.

So this would be very good to see how the plot, characters & books were developed. But you're not gonna curl up with one of these. I suspect they'll be dense reads.

And expensive! The complete, seven parts of Starship Troopers will set you back $21!!

--

A message from our sponsor

Re:I'm a fanboy but... by Catbeller · 2007-09-21 04:04 · Score: 1

Well, you could hit the torrent or eMule downloads, as the books have been scanned years back for your pleasure. Then you could curl up with your Touch iPod or iPhone and read the -- D'OH! They won't let us have an eBook reader app other than Web 2.0.

Almost there, almost there.

hrmph. by apodyopsis · 2007-09-20 22:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

I like Heinlein.

I have all his books, even the one finished by Spider Robinson.

But when I can buy an copy off the 'net for less then a scanned, no doubt DRM'd, electronic copy - I have to wonder who the target of this website is.

Bottom line - If you want to impress people donate the collected works to the Gutenberg archive.

But of course that is not a money spinner. Hardcore fans only indeed - though I am not knocking this as a source for historical research for the academics.

Re:hrmph. by praxis · 2007-09-21 00:40 · Score: 1

While I am not completely aware of what's available in published form, I did take a look at what you get for your $38.00 to download the Stranger in a Strange Land files. I was impressed. You get scans of the original manuscript, drafts, edits, letters he wrote and recieved about that work, and other interested tidbits. Hence, the archive seems pretty well poised for the academic and research crowd, where getting a behind-the-scenes look is actually now afordable. No more flying down, staying in a hotel, searching through boxes of papers, taking notes and making copies. As a replacement for a $6 mass-market paperback, not as good a deal.
Re:hrmph. by Aladrin · 2007-09-21 00:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Your last line answered it: Hardcore fans and academics.

While I love to read, I have very little interest in HOW a book is written. I mean, I kind of care, but not enough to sift through tons of notes and try to recreate his thought process on a book that took him months or years to write. I simply don't have enough time to care.

On the other hand, if I were looking at writing my first book, I'd be sorely tempted to take a look at the process a master used, and see what could help me along.

And if I lived and breathed his books, I'd cherish the ability to get deeper into his thinking.

I just like a good story, though, not the author or anything else involved.

--
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Re:hrmph. by giffnyc · 2007-09-21 03:23 · Score: 1

But when I can buy an copy off the 'net for less then a scanned, no doubt DRM'd, electronic copy - I have to wonder who the target of this website is.

Sheesh, are you people kidding me? This isn't a place to get a copy of RAH's books. This is a research library project that carefully identified, documented and scanned his lifetime correspondence and notes. It's a research tool for those interested in an influential contributer to the development of modern speculative fiction.

The money (do the math, its barely enough to pay a grad student to scan the documents) goes to the archive's work and the Heinlein Prize. The debate on whether or not an author's work should move into the public domain at a certain point, an idea I'm in favor of, is irrelevant to this collection. It doesn't even contain his copyrighted books. It's a research archive.

Go tote up the expense of getting similar material from Hemingway's archives. This is a relatively cheap source for the kind of information only an academic (or drooling fan) would be interested in. It has nothing to do with buying his published works.

For what it is, its cheap and I think its cool that such a popular author's literary archive is available on the web in such a way as to make it available to those, such as myself, who might have a few dollars worth of interest but no real academic project.

BTW, its made clear on the sites that for academic researchers, grants to use the archive gratis are available. You know, just like in every other University archive.
Re:hrmph. by jra · 2007-09-21 04:37 · Score: 1

Wow.

Didn't *anyone* read TFA?

Scholars and researchers are who this stuff is for.

If you're comparing it to buying even hardcovers, you're not paying attention. It is, however, *substantially* cheaper than airfare and motel bills to Santa Cruz...

Re:spam by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-20 23:25 · Score: 0

You can post here for discussions (as in on-topic), please don't spam it with whatever article you submitted to the firehose (as in off-topic).

Playboy.com makes mens magazine available online! by HaloZero · 2007-09-20 23:30 · Score: 4, Funny

In other news, Playboy Magazine recently launched Playboy.com, which allows the worlds premier men's magazine to be made available online! You can skip the brief article, and go straight to the archives [NSFW].

--
Informatus Technologicus

smokin something by night_flyer · 2007-09-21 00:08 · Score: 1

Job: A comedy of Justice, new on Amazon... $7.99
Job: A comedy of Justice, used on Amazon... $0.01
Job: A comedy of Justice, digitized... $33.00?!?

--

Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...

Re:smokin something by VAXcat · 2007-09-21 01:45 · Score: 1

...plus, Job: A Comedy of Justice, is really really bad! One of his worst works, and I say this as a lifelong devoted RAH fan. This (along with "I Will Fear No Weevils") is one of the RAH books I have only read once...and just barely made it through.

--
There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
Re:smokin something by shilly · 2007-09-21 02:57 · Score: 1

Don't be silly. This isn't a bookshop, it's an archival store. You're buying not just the finished version of the book, but the associated working papers. The smaller potentail audience and high production costs account for the relative pricing.
Re:smokin something by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 03:35 · Score: 0

Uh, right. If you look at the notes, that $33 gets you an original outline, *five different* copies of the manuscript (different editing rounds), and a pile of clippings & reviews. If you just want the book, two parts will do -- $6. Of course, it's not in an especially readable form; at a guess, a scan of the MS. This is clearly a scholar's resource more than a reader's resource, and a treasure-trove for the scholar it must be... I'm somewhat intrigued by the unpublished variants for "The Number of the Beast..."
Re:smokin something by Walt+Dismal · 2007-09-21 03:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think the title originally was "I Will Fear No Editor" (okay, I joke) but it read like that, too. Not one of his greatest works. However his artery blockage problem was kicking in around then.
I'll stick my two cents in here. Heinlein's juveniles and many other works (up until the period when the transition in quality coming from his cerebral artery problem deeply hurt his work) all celebrated the human condition, and the ability of man to rise to noble heights. They also were cracking good stories, too. Heinlein does not deserve the denigration coming these days from academic hacks and people unable to understand what he was really getting at. He wrote of man's responsibility to society, over and over again, and I find it offensive when some dimwitted, unimaginative 'publish or perish' academic arrogantly demeans him.
In his time - a span of decades overlapping WWII - Heinlein was a giant and an inspiration to many engineers and scientists; any current critic dismissing him as a totalitarian Nazi is getting it completely wrong. His goal was to make money entertaining, true, but he aimed to inspire, he aimed at noble mores. He was not a literary cheat or a fraud and tried to give good value for the money. He was human and he made some mistakes in later years. But overall he saluted the best in man, championed the competent man in his stories. He was in favor of can-do, and held whiny slackers in disdain. If someone finds fault in that, the problem is with them, not him. His Starship Troopers was about genuine duty to man, unlike many of today's shallow military porn 'Sci-Fi" novels. (The movie adaptation was not his fault.) His Door Into Summer inspired me as a budding engineer. Today's lightweight bookstore rack-space fillers, by contrast, are shallow and disposable. I don't see many of them lighting the right sparks in growing minds like Heinlein did.
Re:smokin something by amper · 2007-09-21 08:44 · Score: 1

His Starship Troopers was about genuine duty to man...

I heartily beg to differ with that characterization, although it does seem to me that you hold Starship Troopers in high regard. Starship Troopers was a treatise on the origins and construction of morality. Those here who are familiar with my posts on the book will know that I believe this book to be one of the most important books of the 20th Century, and very possibly one of the most important philosophical works of all time, whose premises are being borne out more and more in later years by continuing research into the ecological and biological bases of morality and how it impacts the evolution of societies.

I think it is self-evident from the text that nothing about Starship Troopers was intended to apply solely to Homo sapiens. Indeed the very conflict presented by the Bug War is the epitomy of the moral conflict faced by two intelligent species in the ultimate competition for survival. If you posit Heinlein's "Theory of Scientific Morality" and take it to its extreme ends, you must inevitably come to the implied conclusion that the highest aim of morality is the preservation and furtherance of all life.

You can see why I despise Paul Verhoeven for what he did to Starship Troopers with the cinematic adaptation.
Re:smokin something by jra · 2007-09-21 10:19 · Score: 1

> I think the title originally was "I Will Fear No Editor"

No, no...

that's a Tom Clancy book.
Re:smokin something by Walt+Dismal · 2007-09-21 12:21 · Score: 1

I only touched briefly on key themes and did not cover all within a book. But most certainly Starship Troopers concerned itself in part with the relationship between individuals and society insofar as what a person owes the environment that nurtured him. That can be called duty. As long as a society is generally fair and just, if you were raised in it and took resources from it, you owe it. He constantly spoke of this through his puppet characters, such as the schoolteacher/veteran, and the concept of franchised citizens. Society has a duty to you, and if you did your part for society, you deserved to have a say in running it. If you did not, you had lesser rights. I believe this reciprocity to be fair. Nor is it supporting a police state as fools assert.
But I do disagree with you. On your reading of Heinlein's beliefs taken to extreme ends - which he did NOT - would you say he was demanding we respect animals and not eat meat? How about bacteria? Should our aim be to avoid killing germs? Or not bait a hook with a worm? Do not eat a fish? Do not kill a cow? He did not. Heinlein as an engineer would never have posited a Scientific Theory of Morality because such a concept is inherently self-contradictory, and as a military man he would have found it pragmatically naive. I find the term to be silly and on a par with Creation Science. Had the people founding and settling America believed this, they'd mostly have died with an arrow in their head, standing there debating whether to give flowers to the nice Indian or kill him. Your interpretation is putting beliefs and words in Heinlein's dead mouth, unable to defend himself. This is exactly the type of pompous autodidactism I despise.
You can't gain credibility for a religious belief by allying it with science. And morality, in the end, comes down to religious beliefs. People from different cultures hold different beliefs about codes of behavior, most of which ultimately derive from religion or the specific rejection of religion. If the religious beliefs differ, the morals differ, and even come into conflict. Who then will decide which religion is the true and valid one and the norm for beliefs about behavior? I certainly don't agree with your personal conclusion on morality, and to bring this to what might be your real issue or agenda, I support abortions, eating meat and killing when clearly necessary to prevent harm to masses of people. On the other hand, I do not support pre-emptive war done for self-aggrandizement nor for political reasons nor for commerce, i.e. oil. And those are my religious beliefs and my morals - so - on what basis can you tell me these are not worthy religious beliefs, and that I am not entitled to them? Or that Heinlein would oppose these principles? Let our gods duel.
Re:smokin something by tashammer · 2007-09-21 21:36 · Score: 1

I must say that your comment was very inspiring if a little misleading. Heinlein also touch on some rather weird stuff. Have a look at the Howard Families series and Lazarus Long where Heinlein arranges a very incestuous and ongoing relationship between Long and his mother. There are many similar references that appear to indicate a strange value system not the least of which is Long's relationship with his clones.
Re:smokin something by Walt+Dismal · 2007-09-22 01:41 · Score: 1

Although Heinlein had a down-to-earth Missouri side celebrating ethical behavior, he did indeed explore a lot of weird cultural things. In considering these, one has to take into account that what a writer writes does not always reflect his personal beliefs; one can take liberties with reality and social beliefs. Why? Sometimes as exploration to see what audiences react to, and buy. In other words, a fiction writer writes fiction, not reality, and his aim is to sell. We write for money. If we write about cannibalistic psychiatrists who bite off faces, it doesn't mean we believe in doing that. It's done to make something interesting because it's novel. Heinlein like many authors threw a lot of things into his mixes. Maybe he was trying to add sex and controversy. However, with Stranger in a Strange Land and when in his 'influenced-by-blocked brain circulation' period, he certainly wrote some weird kinky stuff. I theorize, but cannot prove, it may have been a result of actual damage to some of his brain that affected reasoning about cultural mores, as well as cut into his self-discipline. I'm pretty sure his later inability to self-edit was hammered by the organic disfunction, resulting in his terribly self-indulgent lecturing later novels. The ones where an editor should have cut out every third word, and it would have been much improved.
Certainly in his earlier years he never showed any sign I know of of having major bizarre fantasies. Okay, there was that character who was his own father and mother and impregnated himself. But that one I doubt was a personal fantasy of his. All the rest of his earlier stuff was pretty normal sexually. What is interesting is that all his earlier work, when he was married to Leslyn, who had some mental illness, was very straight. A little sex in Beyond This Horizon, and in Revolt in 2100. But straight sex. And yet while married to Virginia who was a decent enough gal but conservative, he wrote the kinky stuff. You would think she would have been appalled. Maybe she was. I should go through the UC archives and see if there's any material showing her opinions.
Re:smokin something by Walt+Dismal · 2007-09-22 14:44 · Score: 1

I'm going to add one more thing and then quit pontificating. It's a bit long and windy, but it has relevance to Heinlein's work.
In any culture, for people who have accepted that culture, religious beliefs (or avowed non-religious beliefs, for example atheism or even science) shape how to think and often exactly what to believe. For example, in certain religious systems, there are actually accepted and non-accepted forms of reasoning. This in turns affects how the people of that culture shape their values. So I note that morals and mores are actually driven by what core beliefs one's religion allows one to think about, and which one must accept without question.
For example, if a religion mandates a belief in an all-powerful creator who you must not question, you are stuck in a limited set of reasoning rules. You must accept core principles, you cannot contradict them regardless of whether they lead to paradoxes. Indeed, some limited reasoning systems lead to what might be a form of insanity if you consider its detachment from physical and social reality. The denial of reality in some cases really does constitute mental disfunction. One area where this gets interesting is when two major religions collide. Which one is sane, and which is not? Each may view the other as crazy and irrational by its rules, and its practitioners even subhuman. You can see where this leads. It would make a fine core theme for a book - and has many times. Another extension is when two parties hold conflicting views of economics or politics. One buys into one's choice of faith, and then views the world, often inflexibly, from that view.
Heinlein once qualified stories into several kinds; The Man Who Learned Better; Boy Meets Girl; and If This Goes On. The Man Who Learned Better is about conflicting belief systems that may lead to change, or force change. Eventually causing someone or ones to change their minds about core beliefs. Stories about disruptive technology or phenomena or new concepts are of this kind too, and most hard science fiction is of this kind. Starship Troupers was in part about conflicting major belief systems about the position of a race in the universe. Stranger in a Strange Land similarly. The Puppet Masters had the same core. Heinlein's Revolt in 2100 was about what happens when a dictatorial religion takes over a state, and what conflict and change might ensue. My point is, Robert Heinlein was an excellent writer about belief systems, but he did not necessarily force his personal view on readers, only tried to open their horizons. If he wrote something controversial, it was probably because he felt that controversy was a fine way to get the audience to think.

Heinlein A Master by curmudgeon99 · 2007-09-21 00:09 · Score: 1

Robert Heinlein is one SciFi author that everybody at slashdot should love. He was into technology before there really was any. My favorite: "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress".

Re:Heinlein A Master by AdamThor · 2007-09-21 03:06 · Score: 1

I don't want to come off as a troll / flamebait, but since curmudgeon99 took the time to express that Heinlein is/was cool I figure I can let it be known that some take the position that he isn't so cool.

If you don't want to hear about why I don't like Heinlein you should stop reading here. I encourage you to retain your own position on the matter, everyone gets an opinion.

[begin rant]
I'm no authority on Heinlein. I've only read about... maybe 6 or 8 of his books. It was enough to convince me not to read any more of them. So you know - "Time Enough for Love", "Stranger in a Strange Land", "The Number of the Beast", "The Moon is Harsh Mistress", "Starship Troopers", "Glory Road", "The Cat Who Walks Though Walls" (I think). One about the backyard nuclear shelter that gets nuked into the future, what was it called? Maybe some others, I don't recall. Here, I'll state just two of my criticisms.

- Cast of Charecters
The same people kept showing up in the random sampling of H books I read. Again and again. Their repetition becomes boring and vain. Here they are: 1) The Old Man - physically past his prime, this charecter is an analogue of H himself, and as such is naturally craftier than everyone else in the universe. 10 years ago he could have bested the universe in a fistfight as well, but that's the past. 2) The Young Man - This charecter is also H. He is unreasonably competent at everything except out-foxing the old man. The young man inevitably (meekly) becomes the protege of the old man, flattering H himself that the best of all young men should follow him, and that as a young man he himself could both identify and was fit to follow his ubermensch older self. 3) Beautiful, sexually liberated women - Of course all the women are beautiful and want to have sex with young Heinlien (and old Heinlien, when he can figure a way to justify it)! If these women were powerful female plot drivers then I could at least look at some of his work as pro-feminist. But the women (of course as unsuprisingly-suprisingly competent as the men) are none the less mostly just sex toys for the Heinlein figures. =P (NOTE: The Old Man may not be present in books written before H was himself old.)

- Cool Idea Injection
Don't get me wrong - I love a cool idea. But if you're writing a book and you want to put a cool idea in it, shouldn't it fit with the rest of the narrative? In Number of the Beast we have to run from the mysterious alien assasins! Hmm what do we need? I know, SWORDS! You know, back in the day I was the best swordsman on earth, trained by ninjas, and I killed 7 giants with one blow! Oh really, I also am a fabulously trained swordsman, and my master was an italian assasin! Here, allow me to chop this alien! Right, enough about swords, I won't mention them for the rest of the book. That just doesn't make any sense. Why would either one of these charecters (the Old Man and the Young Man, that is) be trained with a sword, let alone BOTH of them, completely randomly? If this is to be the case, shouldn't it be to some end? No, the impression is that H got up one morning, decided that swords were cool, wrote a couple of paragraphs about it, and the next day decided he liked something else. Now I consider Number of the Beast to be kinda sketchy, but in Stranger in a Strange Land (a high point!) Old Man demonstrates to Yound Man how Unreasonably Trained / Perfected one of his harem of Beautiful, Sexually Liberated Women is. "Dorcas, what color is that house over there?" "This side is white." OOO Dorcas is so highly trained as a witness that she never assumes anything! EVAR! Does this fact ever resurface? Not that I recall. Nevermind the fact that never making an assumption would cripple your functioning in real life. It's never a problem for Dorcas. But then, she's (Unsuprisingly) Suprisingly Capable.

It goes on. By the time I decided to stop reading Heinlein the books had become an exercise in how far I could roll my eyes without straining myself. The collected works of H undoubtedly contain some worthwhile stuff, and he certainly deserved to be published. But he was somewhat short of being a literary badass ninja. Arthur C. Clark and countless others could kick his ass.

[end rant]

--
-- "Oh. This guy again."
Re:Heinlein A Master by AdamThor · 2007-09-21 03:16 · Score: 1

Ooops! I see the Heinlein good / bad discussion is taking place scant comments down from here. Oh well, if you care to shout me down your efforts are better saved for the "Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein..." thread...

--
-- "Oh. This guy again."
Re:Heinlein A Master by curmudgeon99 · 2007-09-21 03:19 · Score: 1

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. Also, there are some of his books I don't care for, such as "Stranger in a Strange Land." However, if you are going after the plausibility of his books then you really have taken on the entire field of SciFi, in which there are millions of things you can't believe.
Re:Heinlein A Master by Artifakt · 2007-09-21 06:33 · Score: 1

I don't see your criticism of Dorcas at all. As I read the book, she was a professional fair witness. She had years of formal, legally recognized and specialized training in a job as demanding as a lawyer's, for the purpose of being able to testify in court to meet specific legal standards. The whole bit with the robe she normally wears when practicing says she doesn't constantly remain in full Fair Witness mode, but does it for specific tasks. Heinlein may have been implying that it was difficult to remain in that state constantly or in an inappropriate situation - I certainly inferred it at the time. It's also very sensible that a very wealthy man, who signs lots of contracts would be just the sort to hire such a person, just as he might keep a lawyer on retainer.
Since the Michael Valentine Smith character is a messiah figure, having a person who is an exceptionally accurate witness observe at least some of his 'miracles' and his 'martyrdom' also seems to fit the overall theme of the book. Perhaps Dorcas could have been made a stage magician or James Randi's niece, but that would have made her presence more arbitrary, more like what you are complaining of. It would have made the book less SF, if you accept that a new profession, legallly recognized and legally given special status in a political system otherwise much like our own, is an SF concept.

--
Who is John Cabal?

Who Robert Heinlein is... by Chapter80 · 2007-09-21 00:17 · Score: 1, Redundant

Since I am generally clueless, not into Science Fiction, and was stumped when reading the posting (e.g. SF = San Francisco, not Sci Fi, when talking about the bay area), here's some background info. From Wikipedia

Robert Anson Heinlein (July 7, 1907 - May 8, 1988) was one of the most popular, influential, and controversial authors of "hard" science fiction. He set a high standard for science and engineering plausibility and helped to raise the genre's standards of literary quality. He was the first writer to break into mainstream, general magazines such as The Saturday Evening Post, in the late 1940s, with unvarnished science fiction. He was among the first authors of bestselling, novel-length science fiction in the modern, mass-market era. For many years, Heinlein, Isaac Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke were known as the "Big Three" of science fiction.

Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by arodland · 2007-09-21 05:19 · Score: 5, Funny

Please turn in your /. account on the way out the door. Thank you.
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by Chapter80 · 2007-09-21 06:18 · Score: 1

Ouch.
I can't be the only person here who doesn't EVER read Sci-fi, and has no interest whatsoever in them, or in memorizing various authors' names.
But thanks for not being elitist. :-)
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by Daath · 2007-09-21 07:40 · Score: 2, Informative

Allow me to be the first to welcome you to slashdot, we hope you enjoy your stay! ;)

--
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by scotch51 · 2007-09-21 10:35 · Score: 1

I can't be the only person here who doesn't EVER read Sci-fi, and has no interest whatsoever in them, or ....

At this URL... yes, I think so.

--
In Nearly All Paradigms, Shift Happens.
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by The+One+and+Only · 2007-09-21 11:09 · Score: 1

I can't be the only person here who doesn't EVER read Sci-fi, and has no interest whatsoever in them, or in memorizing various authors' names.
Please. The proper abbreviation is SF. Your post has so alarmed me that I must now put my monacle back in place.

--
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by arodland · 2007-09-21 13:54 · Score: 1

Please. The proper abbreviation is SF. Your post has so alarmed me that I must now put my monacle back in place. What, you have a problem with skiffy?
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by The+One+and+Only · 2007-09-21 15:04 · Score: 1

I was doing my best parody of a pompus science fiction purist, many of whom draw such distinctions with great importance.

--
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by paganizer · 2007-09-21 16:01 · Score: 1

He's the guy who invented the Water Bed, The Waldo, and Grok.
He wrote some on the side, also.

--
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Re:Who Robert Heinlein is... by InfoVore · 2007-09-25 12:17 · Score: 1

I was doing my best parody of a pompus science fiction purist, many of whom draw such distinctions with great importance.

Ah, so you've met Harlan Ellison.

-I.V.

--
"These laws they're passing won't even compile anymore, let alone execute." - anon

Vector: Santa Cruz by drseuk · 2007-09-21 00:36 · Score: 2, Funny

The last entry in the archive seems to indicate that he was preparing a new book: "Once upon a time a very large meteorite was heading directly for SCO. It was like a million miles across and filling the sky. Even then Darl didn't notice as he was too bust trying to kick the company server back to life ..." It ends there but there's a footnote: "This will undoubtably destory my Santa Cruz Library archive too but it's a price worth paying". It's amazing how he could predict the future with such accuracy. Then, mysteriously he died. RIP RH.

Anyone notice the search bar? by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 00:40 · Score: 0

"Would you like to know more?" is a quote from the the Heinlein 'inspired' movie - Starship Troopers. In the movie they would have a pseudo-interactive interface with some mystery person doing the navigation.

BS! And mod parent down.... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 01:19 · Score: 0

Perhaps you might try actually *reading* some of his works instead of just going by some half baked movie releases that raped the hell out of his books? The man is one of the best writers the United States ever produced and he still manages to be both relevant and timely years after his death. Especially given his book (really a collection of three stories) Revolt in 2100, the background for which seems to be coming to life before our very eyes...

Re:BS! And mod parent down.... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 01:28 · Score: 0

"...The man is one of the best writers the United States ever produced ..."

I'll give you that. That's why I think the US is a cultural desert, full of rednecks whose idea of literary criticism is a shotgun.

Who do you think has to write the storyline for any of our films or TV shows? Foreigners, that's who. Even at the kid's end of the spectrum, where is the US J K Rowling? If there is one, I guarantee she'll be on the next plane to Europe.
Re:BS! And mod parent down.... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 02:56 · Score: 0

Yes, we all know Joss Whedon, JJ Abrams, M.Z. Bradley and so on are Europeans.

"That's why I think the US is a cultural desert"

Get over yourself. Nobody cares what you think. Where's your literary opus, burger-flipper? And wash your hands when you're over jerking off in the toilet.
Re:BS! And mod parent down.... by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 04:50 · Score: 0

"...Where's your literary opus, burger-flipper?..."

Funnily enough, at 180k euros per year in Bonn before bonus that's around 250k of your dollars), we can afford to have our burgers flipped for us. Why not work in a country where the pay is going up, not down?

Finally! by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 01:22 · Score: 0

A Santa Cruz operation worth cheering for!

The Trust isn't publicly funded. by wiredog · 2007-09-21 01:58 · Score: 1

It's privately funded, mostly through sales of Heinlein's works.

--

Best Slashdot Co

Hmm.. by l0cust · 2007-09-21 02:02 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I missed out on reading anything by Heinlein till about a few weeks back so I may be missing something important which made his works important when they came out but my first experience with one of his books(Stranger in a Strange Land) has been a really mixed bag so far.

(I think I should mention that I purchased the new Uncut version which, as someone pointed out earlier, may not be as good as the original one which most of you guys may have read)

The novel starts off well, I was getting into the plot nicely but then there were these disussions which kept going off on tangents, and got longer and longer as the novel progressed. It was fine for a while because short discussions are always interesting when they are related to something as open-ended as Religion or Universe, but then somewhere towards the later half of the book they got just plain stretched out and boring. I think the fact that some of the points made are not as scandalous today as they may have been a few decades from now may have something to do with it. Now some of the monologues come off across as plain preachy and narrow-minded (which is kind of ironic because most of them are about how the religions of the world suffer from those symptoms)

**SPOILERS**

I had to put the book down at the point where Michael finally groks that he is human because it was really taking me a lot of effort to just keep reading. I was losing interest even before that and the fact that a chapter ended at that point just made me decide to give up until I can get myself to finish it. Apart from the fact that I have been through most of the scandalous points raised a million times since I started taking interest in such subject,

He never defined till that point what is a Religion before showing that All religion are true. So as soon as anyone proclaims any answer to the question of "Life, The Universe and Everything" it automagically becomes true? Or do you need to have atleast 'n' number of people believing that to make it true? He criticizes (through the voice of one of his characters) that the Universe just couldn't have come to be with chance alone? Why not? Isn't that also one of the answers?

**SPOILERS**

I could go on but the post is already too long. Maybe he explained all my point towards the end of the book (in which case please refrain from posting spoilers :) but that will make them useless once someone stops reading the thing because its getting too tedious and uninteresting to spend time on.

--
Politicians and Pedophiles: Two groups of exploitive bastards who are most dangerous when they're thinking of children.

Re:Hmm.. by jjohnson · 2007-09-21 02:15 · Score: 1

I think the fact that some of the points made are not as scandalous today as they may have been a few decades from now may have something to do with it.

That's a big part of it: in the 50s and 60s they were pretty radical ideas.

But there's no getting around the fact that, for all his intelligence, he was a pedantic windbag, a quality that got worse with his success and the inability of editors to rein in his prose. I didn't even get a quarter of the way into The Lives Of Lazerus Long.

--
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.

Yeah, but... by RetiredMidn · 2007-09-21 02:07 · Score: 1

...I'd like to think that he would have disclaimed the movie.

Re:Yeah, but... by zegota · 2007-09-21 06:28 · Score: 1

Probably. It was purposefully antithetical to the book.
Re:Yeah, but... by jra · 2007-09-21 06:59 · Score: 1

What? "Bug Hunt at Outpost Nine"? That movie?

translation of parent by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 02:09 · Score: 0

My parents didn't understand money, so I don't either. WHERE IS MY FREE LUNCH????

Do they use any DRM scheme? by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 02:31 · Score: 0

I checked the website but I could not figure out if they use any DRM. I am to cheap to spend $20-30 per file just to check if there is any DRM involved. If they dont use DRM in no time the whole archive will be available for free via bittorrent.

It's a shame he renewed everything. by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 02:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Heinlein (and his successors) were extraordinarily diligent about renewing every single thing he ever wrote. If they hadn't been, you could read some examples that had fallen through the cracks and into the public domain, such as the works of: Poul Anderson, Marion Zimmer Bradley, John W. Campbell, Lester Del Rey, Harry Harrison, Damon Knight, Andre Norton, H. Beam Piper, Frederik Pohl, E. E. "Doc" Smith and Kurt Vonnegut.

Actually, it appears there may be one or two available shorts, the ones that he really, really hated and prevented from ever being republished. I may hit up my interlibrary loan department for that.

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:It's a shame he renewed everything. by jra · 2007-09-21 04:12 · Score: 1

The "three stinkeroos" are in Off The Main Sequence, which I believe was actually a book club book; "My Object All Sublime" is one of them, and I can't remember the other two.

This was actually rolled out 7/7/7, at the Heinlein Centennial; not all the material may have been on line then, though.

You bought it with your taxes. by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 02:37 · Score: 1

UC Santa Cruz doesn't operate on flowers and sunshine; they have an endowment, tuition income, and state subsidies. While it's perfectly understandable that they want to subsidize their archival efforts by selling the results rather than giving them away for free, it's important to recognize that making them free to download would not be providing a free lunch--rather, the lunch has already been bought by the fine folks in California and anyone else who donated to the archives.

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Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Will they recover their expenses? by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 02:47 · Score: 0

They might, but probably wont. It depends on how many people want to get rare materials which are otherwise not available.
I am an ereader freak myself, I stopped reading paper books years ago; my initial motivation was the fact that I am nearsighted and reading on a ultralight laptop is more convenient and much easier on the eyes. There is also the advantage that you can carry a whole library with you. I usually buy books on paper and pay a teenager to scan them. I checked their prices and my way is cheaper, I wont buy anything from them.

That would be "Farnham's Freehold". by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 03:29 · Score: 1

One about the backyard nuclear shelter that gets nuked into the future, what was it called? Maybe some others, I don't recall. Here, I'll state just two of my criticisms.

If the future was one where scary castrating black men (led by one named "Ponse") were in charge, then that's "Farnham's Freehold".

Also, stock character (3)--who you forgot to mention is almost invariably a redhead--is Heinlein's wife Virginia. Apparently she actually was a sexy redheaded super-genius.

It definitely takes a special kind of mindset to enjoy Heinlein. I read pretty much the complete works over a few months shortly after exiting my Ayn Rand fanboy stage; I don't think I could do that again at this point.

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Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:That would be "Farnham's Freehold". by stanmann · 2007-09-21 04:29 · Score: 1

He mentioned Ginny, and then wrote her off as a purely fantastic objectification of women.

Interestingly enough RAH actually responded to this very criticism, and agreed that he did use this formula, but defended it by pointing out that each of these characters is directly based on living human beings.

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Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Re:That would be "Farnham's Freehold". by palantir · 2007-09-21 13:16 · Score: 1

Me too. Once one becomes a reasonably well adjusted adult human being neither Ayn Rand nor Heinlein are very satisfying. Both are very appealing to adolescents, neither particularly good writers, but I will admit that they should both be on everyone's should read list.

"Apartness". by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 03:31 · Score: 1

I forgot to mention that the scenario from "Farnham's Freehold" is done much, much better in Vernor Vinge's short story "Apartness". For one thing, it doesn't have the incredible reek of racism that the Heinlein story had. (Honestly--the negroes get too uppity and start castrating the white folks. You can't make this shit up.)

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Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:"Apartness". by AdamThor · 2007-09-21 03:36 · Score: 1

Vernor Vinge actually IS a super-ninja badass.

I'll have to check out Apartness, thanks.

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-- "Oh. This guy again."

Re:Playboy.com makes mens magazine available onlin by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 03:46 · Score: 0

Surprisingly, the content on that site and the topic site are nearly identical.

Re:Umm??? (Childhood reading) by cayle+clark · 2007-09-21 04:16 · Score: 1

I think it was b/c it was "childhood reading" for a lot of people...

Precisely. Sometime in the late 40s (early 50s?) Heinlein signed a contract with Doubleday to deliver a series of "juvenile" novels -- a contract that he later regretted.

Under that contract he produced books that stamped themselves on the impressionable mind of every young person with a library card in the 1950s or 1960s -- Farmer in the Sky, Space Cadet, The Rolling Stones, Between Planets, Tunnel in the Sky, Red Planet... These were superb examples of exactly what he had contracted to produce: mind-grabbing page-turners for the young-adult reader.

They remain superb examples of how to tell a story ("spin a yarn" as someone was criticized for saying above). They are still models for any author of the basics of fiction: how to open a story with action, how to use dialog to reveal character, how to use inference and image to convey expository detail without slowing the narrative for explanation.

In respect to the last, Chip Delany in a critical essay goes on for paragraphs about one Heinlein sentence: "The door dilated." How in that phrase he smoothly yanked the reader's mind into the future, and achieved more than pages of exposition could do.

When Heinlein was finally free of the Doubleday contract, he wrote Glory Road to celebrate his "freedom" from the constraints of juvenile fiction -- but I personally think the writing and narrative construction of those early books are better than anything he did later.

weak B.S. indeed by ClioCJS · 2007-09-21 04:16 · Score: 1

So every starving artist is really worrying about putting food on his great-grandkids' plates, and not his own? I think not. Artists have less disposable income than most other professions. They are worrying about feeding themselves, trust me. Every art major I know is making half what I make. They are NOT worrying about kids they don't even have yet!

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-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com

TANSTAAFL by Sixty4Bit · 2007-09-21 04:18 · Score: 1

From the site:

Fees for receiving documents average $.01 per page across the collection. Academics interested in writing on Robert A. Heinlein's work for publication may apply for a research grant and, if approved, can receive the documents they require at no charge.

About the Heinlein Prize Trust

The Heinlein Prize Trust (www.heinleinprize.com) also awards the Heinlein Prize, a $500.000 prize rewarding individuals for making practical contributions to the commercialization of space. The first Heinlein Prize was awarded to Peter Diamandis of X Prize fame on July 7, 2006 in Houston, Texas.

At least the money is going back to the stars. And gees, don't you think the people that stood over that smokin scanner for hours at a time deserve something for their work? Or maybe the geek that wrote the PHP? I imagine the provider of the server space and the bandwidth would like some cash too.

$3 for a 200 page PDF is a pretty good price in my opinion. Especially since you can not get the contents from anywhere else.

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This is not the sig you are looking for...

Cool! A Minnie Driver/Anne Hathaway love scene. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2007-09-21 04:18 · Score: 0, Troll

> including files of all his published works, notes, research, early drafts and edits of manuscripts

From the margin of one early draft, "That Ginny chick's a POA. I wanna lick the sweat from her hopefully hairy armpits. I just wish it were red hair like my momma's."

What a perv!

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(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.

TANSTAFL by grymwulf · 2007-09-21 04:25 · Score: 1

And in other TANSTAFL news, the archive charges for each piece that you want to acquire. Even in death, he continues to adhere to the very philosophies he espoused in life. A tip of my hat to one of the Grand Masters of Science Fiction.

Wow by Stanistani · 2007-09-21 04:39 · Score: 1

>heinlein is one of the authors whose books i have absolutely hated, alongside with e.e. smith and edgar burroughs.

What's amazing is those two other authors were probably Heinlein's favorites.
He actually was a friend of Smith.

You have sorted yourself.

Not meant as a criticism, we all have certain flavors we dislike.

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You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia

Re:Wow by dunkelfalke · 2007-09-21 06:29 · Score: 1

interesting. i didn't know that.
makes sense, though.

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap

The funny thing is that we could all get paid . . by ahfoo · 2007-09-21 05:02 · Score: 1

If we just got over this paranoid obsession with the metaphor of the marketplace. Cpitalism is an inherently paranoid system because your starting premise is that everybody is competing and there is no altruism. Or, as Heinlen put it --no free lunch.
But this is truly paranoid. To demonstrate that, we can look to the scientific study of the global food supply. I don't mean just the human food supply but the entire planet's food supply. Where goes the nutrition of the world come from on a global ecological scale? Is it big fish eats little fish? No, that's a tiny little piece of the global food chain. The truth is it almost all comes from plants. Plants are the source of the vast majority of life sustaining nutrition. Do the little Bambi deer and the little rabbits have to pay to eat the grass? No.
But how can it be? How can the plants give of themselves freely? Are the plants stupid Communists? Don't they know they're playing the sucker by giving it all away? Or is it that they're being subsidized by some big government operation like, oh say the Sun perhaps. That fuckin' Sun is the biggest Commie of them all. Good Capitalists get up every morning and spit right at it, yeah?
See, there is such a thing as a free lunch and it's all around us. Not just people but even animal and plant communities can thrive without competition. In fact, the reason we aren't thriving just might be BECAUSE of the stupid wasteful competition.
I won't belabor the point with too many examples, but let's stick to a topic closer to home for Slashdot that Heinlein could dig --robots. Where are the robots? What's holding back robotics technology in the United States? The answer is there's no need for it. Why use robots when you could just lower the workers wages by either hiring illegals, immigrants on shady visa programs or simply outsourcing. That's what you get from capitalism. Rather than a utopian future where the robots do all the work you get a society split into masses of poor and a tiny elite going --hey fuck all you poor people.
Utopia is doable, it's all around us. We're in Utopia already, the sun, the tides, the earth, the plants the animals --it's all beautiful and free. We just need to get it together enough to realize that our societies can reflect this instead of the paranoid dystopia that is capitalism.

always the last to find out by Convector · 2007-09-21 05:16 · Score: 1

I work at UC Santa Cruz; why do I have to find out about this on Slashdot?

Spiffy; here's where you can find it. by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 05:21 · Score: 1

It's been reprinted a couple of times. Good luck!

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:Playboy.com makes mens magazine available onlin by commodoresloat · 2007-09-21 05:54 · Score: 1

Surprisingly, the content on that site and the topic site are nearly identical. (flipping through Time Enough for Love) .... That's not true! This is nothing but immature fantasies of old men drooling over young girls! Whereas the playboy site actually has some interesting articles and interviews.

the real reason the archive needs the money by commodoresloat · 2007-09-21 06:40 · Score: 1

The paper archive is stored in a crooked house that really needs to be fixed. They're worried about it collapsing into another dimension...

The later rubbish by Gallowglass · 2007-09-21 07:47 · Score: 1

Agreed. But one should remember that the "later rubbish" took place after the poor man had a stroke. I remember when the change took place (I *think* it was the novel "Friday") I was confused by the change - mushy plots, fuzzy characters, huge amounts of self reference.

And then I heard of his stroke and I understood.

WTF? by Whuffo · 2007-09-21 07:48 · Score: 1

Article links to an online store? Check.

Store charging for downloads of the discussed material? Check.

Prices for downloads higher than the price of the books? Check.

How did this get approved as a FP post? I dunno...

Re:For real? - Copyright by davidgreystahl · 2007-09-21 08:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

I too was very disappointed to arrive at the archives and notice that payment was required. Did not follow through with the process to see what "rights" I was purchasing.

A friend of mine, now deceased, Amy Mahin was the copyright lawyer for Lassie. She was a wonderful person, thoughtful, and for the last ten years I've wondered often what her take on the copyright mess we are in would be. As many others have commented in the past - the current legal structure supports the distributors - with each individual artist often being required to audit the distributors to recoup their payments. The system also has made it almost impossible for any works to come into the public domain.

As a photographer I want to support the artists and creators of work, but the current system does not do that. To defend a copyright I must locate anyone who is using my work and sue them. That is an expensive process, most artists cannot do, including myself. If I don't defend my copyright, I have nothing, there is no "copyright" police or enforcement.

So thank goodness the Archives were scanned. Too bad that the works are not search friendly and in the public domain were they could inspire a new generation of forward thinking authors. Very sad will be the day if the archives are not profitable and the digital format the files are in are no longer supported [say 30+ years from now].

Hey, some of us do it for free. by Grendel+Drago · 2007-09-21 08:55 · Score: 1

I agree that one and a half cents per page is a fantastically cheap rate for library scanning. The New York Public Library charges twenty-five cents per page plus all sorts of additional fees. One of these three-dollar packages would easily run more than eighty bucks from the New York Public Library. (A little less if you got it by mail rather than PDF, but not much.)

On the other hand, these needed to be scanned precisely once; the labor is entirely a sunken cost. There are plenty of people (looking at you, Distributed Proofreaders) who undertake truly staggering tasks of scanning and proofreading in their spare time, using bandwidth donated by the internet archive.

This sort of archive could have been scanned by volunteers (it's partially funded by a library, so it may in fact have been), and I'm sure that Brewster Kahle would have been happy to donate bandwidth. I'm aware that that's not how things were done, and that the library is charging an extraordinarily reasonable rate for access to what would normally be very restricted collections, but it could have been done as a freebie rather than as a fundraising opportunity for the Foundation. (Which has very admirable aims, I agree.)

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Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Don't tell the SFWA by technoCon · 2007-09-21 09:11 · Score: 1

I hope that aburt's magic piracy detector script (the one that decides that all texts containing the words "Asimov" or "Silverberg" are pirated) doesn't see the archive, or they might send a DMCA take-down notice to UC-Santa Cruz.

Three bucks a pop by grikdog · 2007-09-21 09:58 · Score: 1

...and Door into Summer (jes f'rinstance) comes in three parts. I think Amazon.com probably has it for 9 bucks.

--
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_

Wormhole eXtreme! by mrmeval · 2007-09-21 11:42 · Score: 1

OMG you sound just like the actor playing the 'fake' teal'k in "Wormhole eXtreme" 'outtakes'!!!!

BWA HA HA HA

--
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty

Pirate Bay by Anonymous Coward · 2007-09-21 12:04 · Score: 0

Hmm... where are you guys! I can't wait for a leaked torrent for this archive to be published on the pirate bay!

I beg to differ... by westlake · 2007-09-21 12:36 · Score: 1

If an artist wants to take care of their heirs, they need to do like the rest of us and take care of their heirs with the money they earn while they are still alive. I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

There is of course nothing in your own estate that will continue to generate income or grow in value after you are dead.

No real property, no personal property. You have gambled nothing - nothing - on the chance that something of your own creation might be of benefit to your children, your grandchildren.

Doug Adams by n7kv · 2007-09-24 02:21 · Score: 1

It's worth remembering that Adams didn't really want to write HHG if his biographers are correct. HHG just sort of happened.

Re:Cool! A Minnie Driver/Anne Hathaway love scene. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2007-09-24 05:23 · Score: 1

Troll? It was a good-natured joke.

Apparently the reader hasn't actually read some of Heinlein's final works.

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(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.

242 comments