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Qwest Punished by NSA for Non-Cooperation
nightcats writes "According to a story from the Rocky Mountain news, Qwest has received retaliatory action from the NSA for refusing to cooperate in the Bush administration's domestic data-mining activity (i.e., spying on Americans). 'The [just-released government] documents indicate that likely would have been at the heart of former CEO Joe Nacchio's so-called "classified information" defense at his insider trading trial, had he been allowed to present it. The secret contracts - worth hundreds of millions of dollars - made Nacchio optimistic about Qwest's future, even as his staff was warning him the company might not make its numbers, Nacchio's defense attorneys have maintained. But Nacchio didn't present that argument at trial. '"
The linked article does not support the sensationalist nonsense presented in the summary.
It sounds like he thought he was going to get the contracts but the NSA stuck it to him for not helping them spy. Now, the conspiracy theorist in me wants to believe that the NSA not only tanked the contracts, but also put the prosecutors on him to really make an example out of him.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
If you RTFA, the implications are there. Play ball with the NSA, and life could go better with you. Cross-connect your new fiber infrastructure with the NSA and get nice secret benefits. Don't do it, and watch yourself go down, hard, at the hands of the non-secret branches of government.
Good conspiracy stuff. Kennebunkport and B-52s, anyone?
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
'The [just-released government] documents indicate that likely would have been at the heart of former CEO Joe Nacchio's so-called "classified information" defense at his insider trading trial, had he been allowed to present it. The secret contracts - worth hundreds of millions of dollars - made Nacchio optimistic about Qwest's future, even as his staff was warning him the company might not make its numbers, Nacchio's defense attorneys have maintained. But Nacchio didn't present that argument at trial. '"
What? That didn't make any sense in the summary, or in TFA. I didn't bring my bad grammar decoder ring to work today, can someone translate?
When you said that, I thought you meant that the Slashdot summary did not agree with the story, but it sure appears to. Did you mean that the story itself does not cite these documents directly or make it clear how they relate to his defense?
Because that I'd grant you.
Please don't read or comment on articles in which you have no interest.
Here's the print link to the article (resize window to get ridda blue sidebar). Who says you need firefox to cut out the ads? I'm in agreement with the above. This doesn't sound as much like retaliation as it does "You don't scratch mine I don't scratch yours." All that it comes down to is that "the contract didn't materialize." Is that considered retaliation?
import system.cool.Sig;
I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but why would it be assumed that this is "spying on Americans"? Given this kind of access, it's possible that it could occur, but given that the American telecom industry tends to have faster communications lines than those in countries known to harbor these groups, it's just as possible that they're monitoring those calls. It's a matter of call routing and the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Just my $0.02.
âoeItâ(TM)s a funny thing about life; if you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it."
Either I'm out of touch, or this is a tad bit of a smoking gun...
Next up for me is trying to determine when the guys who went along got their start. Either way it doesn't look good.
Interesting stuff.
I love how today is "politics trolling" on slashdot.
Blasphemy!!! To the bonfire!!!
That's has been done and the Open Source Governments forked into the states we have now. So, we just a bunch of different distros - that's all.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
IMHO, Qwest's motives are suspect, and this article with its sensationalist flavor reads almost like it came from Qwest's PR office.
As is usual with opinions, YMMV.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
God forbid you filter it out...
~S
I think it's great that Slashdot has a politics section. Most people, let alone Americans are not informed about the political process on a daily basis. With the internet, people are able to be highly selective about the information that passes in front of them, in some ways making it more difficult to keep people informed or even interested politics. Sure there's "trolling" in the comments, but that's par for the course with any discussion. If Slashdot can put a couple political articles before a few more apathetic internet users per day and get them to debate it, the site has done a great service for both nerds and democracy.
Data mining is all about finding patterns in large amounts of data (usually summary statistics). this is not spying in itself. the spying comes in when that data represents information that people are not willing to provide themselves, and must be attained through NSA letters with non-disclosure agreements and no court backing. since that data is used to track individual human's actions, with no notification or consent, that is clearly spying. it's not the tools, it's how you use them. To me, this program is domestic intelligence gathering, and thats spying however you look at it.
began on 2001-09-11?
If you do some research, you will see that a lot of these programs had been ramped up considerably under Clinton (including both extraordinary rendition, and the attacks on free speech). There was also an increasing amount of information that Eschelon was underway at that time. Unfortunately this is not a matter of who is in office, but rather who is informing whoever is in office.
This means: career military top brass, it means career intelligence services (CIA, NSA, etc), and to a lesser extent it means private think tanks.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Ditto, wtf does this say?
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Way to show bias based on rhetoric. Not "spying on Americans" but spying on foreigners contacting Americans. The calls that are being data mined are those originating outside of the U.S. by people or countries that are known terrorist supporters.
Now let's see the nonsense that falls out of this thread now.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
If calls are coming into the US, to Americans, and the NSA is listening to them...
Explain to me how the NSA is not simultaneously spying on the Americans?
Do they only hear the foreign side of the conversation?
Thought so. You got nuthin.
assertion: a positive statement, usually made without an attempt at furnishing evidence
What are you talking about? New coke was brilliant. The "Coke Classic" reintroduction turned out to be a historical moment.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
No, you're getting two separate programs confused.
The warrantless wiretapping is only for international calls (with origin either inside or outside the United States, but at least one party has to be outside).
The data mining does not include listening to any content of the phone calls, just caller, receiver, time, and duration. This information includes data on purely domestic calls.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
Real simple here. If you walk onto an airplane, you know you will be scanned and possible searched. You accept that for taking that action. If your receive foreign calls, you could be monitored. You accept that for taking that action. It is the Americans' fault for receiving calls from such people. I accept the risk because I have nothing to hide. No...wait....I don't even receive international calls.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
This shouldn't be a surprise. Bush has insisted on amnesty for illegal acts AT&T (and others) *may* have done, but won't admit what they have done. Steny Hoyer is leading the charge against this amnesty on the basis that congress has no idea what the administration strong-armed these guys these guys to do.
But Bush won't say what they did. Which means it's bad.
I'm not making this up. Please go to http://washingtonpost.com/ and do a few queries. Or Google.
How do you know the calls are to American citizens? There are many legal and illegal aliens here that are likely to receive calls from terrorist areas of foreign nations.
Once upon a time QWEST absolutely refused to do anything about the unrepentant spammers on their network. I don't care what happens to either QWEST or any of the executives.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
The problem isn't trolling in the comments, it's trolling in the article summaries that's the problem...
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
I think the Supremes ruled that when a computer looks at data, it cannot be spying: spying is when a human looks at data. Sadly the damages the government suffers from spying--that is, from having a human look at data you'd rather have hidden--is that without a warrant they can't use it in court, and if they embarrass you then you can sue for damages.
Reality is, however, there is a hell of a lot of private data floating out there that is being handled by lots and lots of strangers--things that we'd like to pretend are secret but are really not. The most fascinating part about all of these complaints about the NSA spying on us is that they show just how public our private data really is. While we may use the NSA as the boogyman in all of this, there is plenty of information that I'd rather have private (such as how much I paid last year in property taxes on my house) which can be found for free on web sites such as Zillow.com.
The NSA contract was awarded in July 2001 to companies other than Qwest. I'm glad Qwest did the right thing. But my next question is, who did those contracts go to, and what illegal thing is THAT company doing right now? Unfortunately, the documents that would indicate this are sealed. There might be the makings of another EFF/ACLU -vs- AT&T case hiding amongst those documents.
This sort of 'help' has been going on for decades:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK
RON PAUL
It sounds like the guy was offered a bribe by the NSA to do something borderline illegal and he turned it down. Perhaps he didn't realize it was a bribe. Anyway he turned it down and he didn't get the moolah in return. Good for him on this count. However, it sounds like he was trading based on information not available to the public and thus is guilty of insider trading. It does not matter where this information came from. He could be the greatest philanthropist alive, but it does not affect his guilt in this matter.
(( Sigh. Some things just never change. ))
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
It's too late to indict Joe for anything new, and he may have an appealable issue. If he does no time, then the Feds have really blown it.
BTW, petty government people who retaliate on unrelated fronts for unjustifiable reasons are nothing new. Kennedy, Nixon, and Clinton all have been acused of directing the IRS to audit their enemies (probably other presidents as well).
Some people will get so pissed off at government's invasion of privacy that they will become terrorists to fight that government. If they view data mining as spying, regardless of whether it actually is or not, then the data mining is responsible for creating terrorists. So, to reduce the amount of data that you need, simply avoid data mining.
I can see this easily happening! Bush ALWAYS wanted to make the USA a police state! 9/11 simply gave him the REASON to! History will not be kind to shrub!
One of the few telecoms that didn't break the law and ignored the illegal and unconstitutional NSA requests is being punished, and GWB is threatening to veto any telecom bill that allows the law-breaking unconstitutional actions of the telecoms which spat on our Constitution to go to jail for their CRIMES ...
Ok, it's time to fire the incompetents.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Data mining *your own data* isn't spying. The phone companies data mining the phone records of their own customers isn't spying. The federal government data mining the phone records of tens of millions of US citizens is spying.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/inaugural-address.html
- real hackers don't have sigs -
Data Mining is spying?
No, obtaining information about people without their knowledge or consent is spying. Data mining is what you do with the information after you've collected it.
So tell me, how do we get the data I need without manually searching each and every record? (replace "data I need" with terrorist and "every record" with citizen)
Maybe you don't.
Your right to find a potential criminal does not outweigh the rights of millions of people to have their personal affairs remain their personal affairs. Yes, an increased vulnerability to crime is the price we pay for increased insulation against an abusive government. But it's also worth noting that increased government powers provide no guarantee against crime, while limiting its powers *is* an effective protection against abuse.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
This is such BS. The SEC is a non-political independent regulatory agency outside of the executive branch! Bush couldn't order them to flush a toilet, let alone initiate an investigation.
But hey, it's an anti-Bush allegation, so let's greenlight it!
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Data mining *your own data* isn't spying. The phone companies data mining the phone records of their own customers isn't spying. The federal government data mining the phone records of tens of millions of US citizens is spying
No. The government can look at pen register information, which is nothing more than data mining call connection information, all it wants and no warrant is required, for example. It isn't spying. So sayeth the Supreme Court. Analyzing national calling patterns is as much spying as the U.S. Census. That is, it isn't.
This site cracks me up... it has nothing to do with anything other than a few disgruntled people in their basement screaming at their monitors on cue when the next bush story comes down. Its such a sad joke, and the site is marginalized because of it... LOL
it can not be presented at appeal.
Joey Nachos is a vanquished robbing tyrant, and his lawyer is an idiot.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
The SEC consists of five presidentially-appointed Commissioners, with staggered five-year terms. One of them is designated by the President as Chairman of the Commission -- the agency's chief executive. By law, no more than three of the Commissioners may belong to the same political party, ensuring non-partisanship. The agency's functional responsibilities are organized into four Divisions and 18 Offices, each of which is headquartered in Washington, DC. The Commission's approximately 3,800 staff are located in Washington and in 11 Regional Offices throughout the country. Source
Gawd some people here are dumb. Pretending to be smart.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Now of course if he has any evidence of the criminal activities of the NSA in other countries he could of course seek political asylum from what is quite likely to be an extremely harsh and of questionable survivability, prison term.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
One could also say But it's also worth noting that limiting government powers provide no guarantee against abuse, while increasing its powers *is* an effective protection against crime. An example would be a traffic cop does a better job at enforcing speed limits on the Interstate in a Crown Vic than he would on a bicycle.
The police stand a much better chance of finding a stolen car if they are allowed to run license plates against a database (in other words, datamine)
Police stand a much better chance of serving a warrant they are allowed to ask for proof of identification from the citizen who fits the description.
It is also true that retrieving proof of identification can reduce the chance that the person who ONLY fits the description of the suspect is NOT arrested!
So I guess you can guarantee that increasing government powers can cut down on crime. But you are correct that NOTHING can ever eliminate it completely.
I could go on, but the point is that it's not the tools that should be banned, but the abuse, and the abuse is banned already! True, it may happen, but someone is also going to be killed by construction worker wielding a hammer. Does that mean we should ban construction workers from using hammers?
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
You seem to be equating tools, techniques, and power. Data mining is a technique, not a tool, and I see nothing wrong with it per se. Collecting the list of all calls made from which to data mine, I would argue, is not fine, regardless of what tools or techniques they use to collect that information. Even "voluntary compliance" quickly turns to "noncompliance is suspect," so I would rule out people volunteering their information as well.
Also power is not directly related to the tools used. A car is more powerful than a bike. But just because an officer is driving a cruiser doesn't mean he has the authority to perform an unwarranted search; it just means he can better perform his existing duties in a manner compliant with the rule of law. Aside from that, driving on a public street is very different from using a private network with a private contract with a private entity.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Dude. The SEC is a US Government Agency whose commissioners are appointed by the US President(subject to the senate rubber stamp).
See http://www.sec.gov/about/commissioner.shtml
Much like the FTC, the SEC can and will refuse to investigate or take action on politically sensitive.
Bush could appoint a commissioner who could not only flush his toilet but clean it with a tooth brush and more...
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Now, the people who brought you borderless Libertarianism bring you this exciting new product...
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
nightcats writes "According to a story from the Rocky Mountain news, Qwest has received retaliatory action from the NSA for refusing to cooperate in the Bush administration's domestic data-mining activity (i.e., spying on Americans). Please get the terminology straight! "Data mining" does not mean "spying". Data mining is a sophisticated process of statistical analysis. The article to which you refer (at RockyMountainNews.com) does not use the term "data mining". Privacy implications arise from the uncontrolled and unmonitored gathering and sharing of private data, not statistical analysis performed afterward.
Having worked as a contractor for Qwest both before and after the Nacchio era, I believe that this assertion in Nacchio's defense is irrelevant. The supposed government contracts were worth "hundreds of millions of dollars", but at the time of Joe's ouster from Qwest, and it's near bankruptcy, Qwest was 26 BILLION dollars in debt. Even if the government contracts were worth a few billion, it wouldn't have helped Qwest's situation. Joe Nacchio was slimey sales weasel type CEO who put Marketing first, and engineering last, and engaged in fraudulent deals to artificially pump up the bottom line, not unlike MCI/Worldcom. Undoubtedly he's using this "secret contracts" issue as a last ditch effort to stay out of the hoosegow. He and almost all of the senior execs were swept out when the current CEO, Dick Notebaert took charge and realized the scope of the disaster which Nacchio had created through his criminal mismanagement. I know that the current management team also refused to cooperate with the NSA, unlike say Verizon or AT&T. Assuming the story of secret contracts with the NSA to be correct, it's plausible that they didn't get them because the NSA knew of Qwest's perilous financial condition. A lot of people (Investors, Qwest employees, retirees) were seriously hurt or financially destroyed by Mr. Nacchio's misdeeds, and I hope he doesn't weasel out of a well deserved stay at Club Fed.
Not sure how to parse the meaning of the first sentence without knowing if you are against, or in favor of, dropping a nuke on Iran or Syria.
But I'd say Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul would do a far better job. Al Gore certainly would have done a better job.
Wow, I was thinking of watching that movie until I read your little essay on it. Now I think I will stay as far away form it as possible.