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Airlines Have to Ask Permission to Fly 72 Hours Early
twitter wrote to mention that the TSA (Transport Security Administration) has released a new set of proposed rules that is raising quite a stir among groups ranging from the ACLU to the American Society of Travel Agents. Under the new rules airlines would be required to submit a passenger manifest (including full name, sex, date of birth, and redress number) for all flights departing, arriving, or flying over the United States at least 72 hours prior to departure. Boarding passes will only be issued to those passengers that have been cleared. "Hasbrouck submitted that requiring clearance in order to travel violates the US First Amendment right of assembly, the central claim in John Gilmore's case against the US government over the requirement to show photo ID for domestic travel. [...] ACLU's Barry Steinhardt quoted press reports of 500,000 to 750,000 people on the watch list (of which the no-fly list is a subset). 'If there are that many terrorists in the US, we'd all be dead.' TSA representative Kip Hawley noted that the list has been carefully investigated and halved over the last year. 'Half of grossly bloated is still bloated,' Steinhardt replied."
When I was the young guy with no family- I remember having to go home from work one day, pack, come back to work, then drive to Portland to catch a flight in under 3 hours, while the travel agent got me boarding passes at the call desk.
I'd suggest that certain people be allowed to willingly give up privacy in return for fast track at the airport through the TSA.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Back when I was young, the Soviet Union required internal passports... Seems to me that things are rapidly progressing that way here.... Maybe it's time to emigrate to Russia now that they're freer than Americans in America.
Where we have our very own Iron Curtain (it just goes the other way).
Here's the progression:
No, we don't let you in.
You can leave, but not with your money.
You can leave, just give us 72 hours to make sure you're not on our list of Bad People (anyone we don't like).
"you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
All American citizens who wish to retain their freedom of movement should immediately begin informing their local authorities whenever they travel, no matter the distance or means of transport. Imagine how quickly the police, FBI, CIA, TSA, et cetera will get tired reports filed by self-reporting citizens explaining in detail that they need to go to work, stop by the grocery store, or visit their cousin in Roxbury....
Apparently the TSA has forgotten that this is America and we go where we like when we like and how we like (unless we're in prison, of course) without Uncle Sam knowing where we are. Like the commercial says, " we are free to move about the country."
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
My grandfather died a few years ago, and I was on a plane the next day to visit with family. Now, it ended up that he wasn't buried until the following week, but if he had been buried sooner and I had had to wait 3 days prior to flying out, I would've missed his funeral.
I've always dreamed of having enough money and spare time to pack a small suitcase, go to the airport, look at the departure boards, figure out what's leaving in the next couple of hours, and buy a first-class ticket to a destination I've never visited before.
What? I have to know three days in advance everywhere I want to go?
Shit.
I guess I'll just have to dream about having enough money to have my own Gulfstream, since once you get to that level of wealth, the rules that apply to the little people are no longer a problem.
What sort of computers are the TSA using if it takes 3 days to match a name to a database.
What century are we living in?
1 hour before boarding is reasonable. Allows data entry and organization for response.
Anything more is just a sloppy system.
Makes you wonder where all this paranoia will end, doesnt it ? If the no-fly list really has as many as 750k people on it maybe its time to take a step back and consider if the criteria for getting on it arent just a teensy bit farked up.
Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.
We could just about go back to pre-9/11 levels of airport security but keep the stronger cockpit doors, and everything would be fine.
Why? Because I pity the fool who would try to hijack a flight in the US nowadays. The days of "just cooperate with them and everything'll be cool" are OVER. The other passengers will enthusiastically tear him/them apart. For that not to happen, there'd have to be more terrorists than regular passengers on the plane by a comfortable margin.
Well, the drive to visit my family takes fewer than three days so there's no point in flying if they implement these rules. Driving is more expensive and time consuming it's true, but I enjoy driving a lot more than flying. Besides, who needs the aggravation of having to stand in a hour-long lines and rampant privacy violations? The only time I'd bother flying is if I were leaving the country for whatever reason (vacation, or perhaps fleeing a repressive government hell-bent on micromanaging my life at the expense of everything our founding fathers held dear).
Hmm- I failed to read it like that. This makes more sense. If it had been the other way, I'd have had to ask, what about the standby market?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I've met many individual American people. They have almost universally been friendly, kind, intelligent, and really, indistinguishable from my fellow Canadians apart from their opinions on health care.
I constantly wonder how a government that is supposed to represent those people can end up sending its poor overseas to fight and die protecting the interests of oil companies. Or any of the other crazy shit your president signs into law.
Don't worry, Americans. The rest of the world doesn't dislike you as individuals. In fact, if you want out, consider moving up north. I welcome any of you that want to flee a sinking ship.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Makes you wonder how long it'd take Joe Sixpack to get off the list...
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
At my job we aren't so young and most have families and we still have to make last-minute flights from time to time. On more than one occasion this year I've had to book flights within 72 hours of departure.
I can tell you that in many business cases there is absolutely NO WAY that this proposal is workable. People MUST be able to make travel plans up to and including the day of departure. 3 days is just not workable and the business community simply would not tolerate implementation of this proposal.
There are also far to many last-minute trips made on compassionate grounds. What about flights arranged to see dying loved ones, or to transport donor organs, or to get special treatment at a distant hospital? Hell, you can get a passport faster than 72 hours under normal cases for such reasons. If your identity can be verified well enough to get a passport that quickly then clearing you for a flight should be much easier than that.
Three days? That'll never fly. MAYBE three HOURS, but not three days.
It goes beyond that though--the same proposal not only wants lists for all flights arriving or departing US locations, it wants flight lists for ALMOST EVERY FLIGHT THAT PASSED OVER US AIRSPACE as well...which means they'd like the government to demand passenger lists from Canadian and Mexican airlines for many of their flights that never touch American soil. Not enough to violate their own civil liberties--in the name of safety everyone's liberties must be unduly curtailed.
Excellent point. I just wanted to mention that Clinton had three assassination attempts in his first year. To quote the New York Times "Since Mr. Clinton moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the White House has come under assault by a small plane that crashed under the President's bedroom last September and a deranged gunman who was recently convicted of trying to assassinate the President a month later when he fired shots that struck the building but did not injure anyone. In December, the mansion was struck by bullets fired from somewhere to the south, but investigators never determined if they were aimed at the White House." (link). He was the one who closed the road (see the congressional record here.
These kind of things don't make it into the mass media, you have to dig for them (it would upset people, after all.)
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. - Hunter S. Thompson
Kinda makes the market for that type of service a little small. Anyone who can afford to spend that much on a flight, already does.
.454 casull in their baggage.
Ever checked out the prices for many first class tickets? How about in situations where you're going from small airport to small airport, requiring connecting flights. A chartered plane, while it might be slower than a commercial jet, has the advantage of more or less direct line travel.
If you're sending more than one person, especially if travel hours are billable, it quickly makes sense to charter. Not only don't you have the 3 hour wait(generally) for security and boarding, you also have quick access to your luggage on the way out, and generally private facilities, so you don't have to dodge 300 other people at the terminal.
Still, back when this security mess started, I proposed creating a 'NRA Airlines, 10% discount for open carry.' While commercial passangers are required to fly nude for safety*, at NRA airlines the only thing you have to worry about is some retired police bomb dogs checking for explosives. You wouldn't be allowed to load from the terminals, so boarding would be by stairway. Handicapped will be assisted. Hearken back to the old days.
Have glaser type ammo available in common calibers if you want to be paranoid. And ask that passangers leave the
*Yes, I'm being silly.
I don't read AC A human right
The US is still in the 19th century as far as rail travel goes compared to the rest of the world. Maybe this will help us realize that there are other options.
Where is the war on cancer, or the war on drunk driving? You're more likely to die driving to the airport than on the plane. The difference is when you die in an act of terrorism, it's more likely to be televised and thus breed dissatisfaction among the survivors with the coincident administration of government for failing to prevent it. People who die quietly (relatively speaking) don't provoke as much outrage.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
My name was on the list for years until I finally decided to try get off it. Every time I tried to checkin and print my boarding pass online I was told I'd have to go to the ticket counter. I found the form online and surprisingly it took less than 6 weeks. YMMV.
-USR1
Though I agree that the headline is somewhat sensationalist, I think we all have to keep in mind that the root of the problem lies in the fact that TSA is trying to make a stupid process more efficient. (Instead of say... eliminating the stupidity altogether.)
Let's review some basic ideas:
1) Knowing who people are doesn't (by itself) prevent terrorism at all.
2) Even if it could, IDs could still be forged.
3) Even if IDs couldn't be easily forged, this would still be a violation of the rights of American citizens. By this I mean that, the government has no innate right to stop you from traveling UNLESS and UNTIL they can charge you with something specific.
The main concern I have is that in trying to make things "easier", the TSA/DHS/Fed. Government is generally are simply breaking all the limits and chains that are placed on them for good and sound reasons. Things should NOT be easy for the listed organizations. They should require work and effort. This is the only way to ensure that they will actually do their job instead of just creating a big list and adding people's names to it.
In other words, imagine the lists of lists we might have in the future in current trends continue:
+ No-fly List
+ No-drive list
+ No-shop list
+ No-protest list
+ No-publishing list
+ No-(Insert your activity-here) list
I don't want to live in that country. How about you?
But it is about the impact on the economy. Consider this: In the days following 9-11, the US stocks lost $1,200,000,000,000. Thats 1.2 trillion if digit grouping isn't your thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks#Economic_aftermath). Thats also just stocks, not counting what we've spent on wars, other anti-terrorist programs, and other junk that hasn't made the USA one ounce safer.
My opinion on the topic? The government should not regulate passengers on planes. Should the government regulate international travel to the US? Maybe. Depends on the program, who it filters, etc. I think it comes down to good intelligence on who the crazies are. So far the majority people people flying planes into buildings for the purposes of terrorism are Muslim Arab's. I think 99% of Muslims Arabs are great--its the 1% that are crazy suicidal maniacs we need to worry about. Lets start there. It would be great if our 'friends' in Saudi Arabia would help us out with this...but thats another issue. If other religious or ethic groups start doing similar shit then they should be filtered out.
Ultimately governments cannot stop determined individuals who are bent on terrorism. It comes down the world population, who out of a love of freedom and their fellow man and with complete disregard to their personal safety restrain and fight violently those who would cause terror.
On a long enough time scale, most everything balances out.
The premise of the libertarian movement is small governement. There is a reason that a candidate like Ron Paul is getting so much press and support now - the actions of the government are becoming onerous and encroaching on basic human freedoms.
What the world needs now is a large group of people to collectively tell the state (Read: US FEDERAL GOVERENMNET) to "Back the fuck off" and stay where they belong: defending the country against known threats, domestic and international and creating real domesitc security (not this fake, fear mongering/engineered solution cycle).
"Watch lists" are part of LAZY POLICE WORK. If there is a person that is planning something - investigate them, charge them, arest them. Follow the laws we have now. All the rest of this crap in the name of security is just plain ineffective, lazy behavior driven by the need to cover their asses and assauge their fears that they will be accountable if any thing happens.
The reality is that there is no way to stop terrorism, and people have to get OK with that. If some sicko wants to kill a bunch of people, he or she will. If some sicko wants to fill a truck with fertilizer and gas, and drive into a building, they will. Tough shit. Somebody should have listened to their pleas for help long ago. Living is a world that makes it impossible for someone to bring down a plane is not a world that I want to live in, becuase it means draconian crontrols on freedoms. Those same freedoms we fought for and won hundreds of years ago, and many have died defending. I'd much rather we build a world where people DON'T WANT TO BRING DOWN PLANES. That is completely possible, and if we spent our energies there instead of the current track, we would all have happier, healthier lives.
The debate is not "should we have watch lists or not". The debate is, "who came up with this ridiculous crap and how soon can we remove them from power?"
flying today, as a whole, is total BS.
I am on the list that gets SSSS stamped boarding passes.
I refuse to show papers to travel within my own country.
I have a boarding pass. I have made transportation
arrangements with the private carrier of my choice.
I have completed my private business transaction.
They got the money, and I got my boarding pass.
I'm pro security in airports. Everybody should be
subjected to the same interrogation by security.
Knowing WHO I AM, makes nobody safer.
The cost of this would likely be in the hundreds of millions to the airlines. A completely out of control politically motivated TSA, you must be afraid of terrorist all of the time, see all the precautions you have to take to be able to fly safely.
Business are going to have to relocate out of the US otherwise any urgent multinational meetings will basically take basically 10 days, 3 for the booking and 2 for the flight and repeat to escape the mad house.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
You're one of those, huh? Let's see...
I have personal control over:
heart disease
Glad you can change your own genetic code!
cancer
Same here - care to share your cancer cures?
stroke
Unlikely considering the level of fear you seem to be experiencing on a regular basis...
accidents
So I guess you don't walk, bike, or drive. Good for you!
influensa
Nice bubble!
Why don't you just go learn some math and relax buddy. It will help you prevent those strokes!
I second your thoughts and will add a snippet that I posted to my blog after returning from a last minute business trip today:
...
"I had an o-dark-thirty flight home from Orlando this morning. When I got to the Southwest counter, there was no line which was a cool thing. I stepped up to a kiosk, and a guy about my age and with no baggage stepped up to the one next to me. I checked in and was handing my bags over when I heard the guy explaining that his flight doesn't leave until tomorrow morning but he was checking in early so that he could get an "A" boarding pass. (If you've never flown Southwest, then you wouldn't know why that's important. But I digress....) The Southwest employee told the guy that he can check in online. And that's when he explained that he can't because he's on the TSA "No Fly" list. I mentioned that their website has some process you can go through to get off of the list. That's when I found out that this poor guy has gone through that process dozens of times, but always ends up back on the list two months later. Not helpful when you've got meetings in Orlando every other week like he does (and oddly enough, like I seem to lately as well). So he's given up on the process and just drives by the airport 24 hours before every flight to check in at the counter. About the only thing I could find to say was "Well, I guess that what happens in Vegas doesn't really stay in Vegas." He laughed.
And so his painful odyssey through the transportation system continues...
"Papers please?" "
--Insert catchy
Prior to the no-fly insanity, my parents flew an average of 50,000 miles per year for both business and recreation. Almost all of it was paid travel (i.e. not frequent flyer rewards), too. I wonder what that loss, repeated among thousands of no-fly condemned travelers, represents to Northwest or United or whoever your hometown airline might be.
First rule of trauma: Bleeding always stops.