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Nokia Takes Third Swing at Internet Tablet
DeviceGuru writes "It looks like Nokia is intent on scoring success with a Linux-powered Internet tablet. The company has unveiled the N810, its third attempt at hitting a home run with the concept. The new model adds a slide-out hardware keyboard, and also a built-in GPS receiver and FM transmitter (for in-car listening), among a number of other enhancements (such as a faster CPU and more memory). At this point, the device is positioned as an email and browsing tool, a social networking aid, a GPS, a VoIP phone, and a multimedia player (and streamer, thanks to built-in WiFi). Will this prove any more successful than the two previous iterations of this offering?"
Demands a simple answer ....
"Will this prove any more successful than the two previous iterations of this offering?"
No.
At this point we need one of those forms that has all the check boxes as to why it will fail, like the one for SPAM.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
And how many people out there in the corporate mainstream are ready to rely on VoIP and whatever wifi might be available? If folks were ready to restructure their communication expectations, it'd be a fine device, but I suspect they're still a little ahead of things.
I am the one true god. However, as an atheist, I don't believe in myself. I guess I have a self-esteem problem.
I see the )ASUS EEE (http://eeepc.asus.com/en/ and the OLPC (http://laptop.org/) as it's competition. Both are bigger, but also far more capable and less expensive.
The specs on that are pretty good. The form-factor is nice. The software sounds like it is very decent, also. But $500?
I was at Wal-Mart yesterday, and they had Windows Vista notebooks for $300.
It's the same problem that ALL PDAs have. To make a PDA that has all the functionality you want, they basically have to re-create notebook, but make everything a little slower/suckier to make the device smaller and make the batteries last longer.
It's hard to justify buying any of these devices, as neat as they are. They're just not worth it.
"The N810 is slightly smaller than its predecessor, the N800, and slightly heavier, leading users to 'perceive more value' in the device, predicts Olavi Toivainen, Nokia's director of product management."
-That's- what's wrong with tech today. Our irresponsible focus on miniaturization has removed all the -value-.
Of course, cause I just got the N800...
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
Personally, I don't see the attraction of this kind of device. The core functionality seems to be webbrowsing while you're traveling. That may be nice, but is it really so important that you make a dedicated device for it? Aparently Nokia seems to think so (and Apple too, in a way), but I just don't see it. Can anyone lusting for this device tell me what the attraction is? Also, how do these things compare to the devices on the Japanese market? During my recent trip to Japan I saw a similar device on display all over Japan. Sorry, I don't know a brand name, but clearly vendors also want to fill this niche in the Japanese market.
Am i the only person who thinks dedicated number keys (like on the sidekick, a well thought out but poorly marketed product) are REALLY REALLY nice? I have the newest wince device du jour, and the shared number/qwerty is very... very annoying.
I really like separate number buttons. On a computer, where one uses numbers frequently... especially a phone-type device which involves dates.... hitting the fn button all the time is silly!
Bonus points for the sidekick designers, who even had a separate key for the @ symbol.
If I wanted to browse the Internet in a mobile fashion I would be much more interested in a Asus Eee PC format that could browse cellular networks, anybody know if it can? They must be thinking of adding something other then wireless...
more power, more traditional format, proper keyboard/mouse, ok its bigger but its much smaller then a real laptop - and you can work on office documents and actually do something approaching tasks on it. now thats a toy I'm really thinking of getting....
http://www.itweek.co.uk/personal-computer-world/news/2192000/199-asus-ultra-mobile-uk-soon
I have a 770, and am very happy with it. But the lack of a keyboard seriously limits its uses.
This new device looks like a larger version of my cell phone, the Nokia 9300. The problem with the 9300 is that it doesn't run Linux. The N810 does.
There are a lot of people who want an affordably-priced UMPC. I think Nokia is going in the right direction with this. Eventually, they will market it (or the a later version) as a UMPC, but they are adding features incrementally, and not pretending that it is anything special... yet.
I think the biggest negative that remains with the 810 is the fact that it only supports WI-FI connectivity. If it does eventually come to support 3G connectivity, imagine the possibilities:
A pocket Linux system that is quite affordable (unlike the OQO or other UMPCs) and can connect to the Internet on the go.
if you want something to surf the web and not look like a clown, get an iPhone.
The iPhone has a 320×480 resolution screen. The 810 has 800x480. Anything less than 800 wide is not enough resolution to surf normal pages comfortably, so the iPhone is not even a contender.
And I like that it's not a phone, it means you're not locked into anything.
there are plenty of other phones that surf the web and aren't the iPhone. Verizon Wireless's XV6700 or AT&T's 8525 (i think they're both pretty much the same phone) do a pretty good job and offer WiFi. They use Windows Mobile, so its Pocket IE, but its still good nonetheless.
I don't see it taking over the mainstream market, but I have an N800 and it's a surprisingly capable device. For me, having a portable Rhapsody client that works over wifi and bluetooth was nearly worth the price tag on its own--it's like having an iPod with a few million tracks preloaded on it.
Beyond that, though, there's a healthy open source community and a steady stream of apps. While the overlal interface is indisputably worse than the iPhone's (what isn't?), the form factor is much better for web browsing and other high-resolution widescreen activities. Mine is largely a portable O'Reilly Safari reader at work.
The market for this is the bleeding edge techies that will appreciate the flexibility of a Debian-based system with aptget as the installer. It's not your mom, so yeah, it won't be successful in that sense. As a flagship device for Nokia, though, it's pretty kick-ass.
It's Nokia. Enough for many people to prefer it over a hyped iPhone which has yet to proove it's quality and durability.
Why can't they (or anyone) make it steno pad sized??? What the hell is wrong with people that every devices has to be f'ing Zoolander sized??
full size tablet notebooks fail because they are too large. PDA "tablets" fail because they're too small..
This N810 device has REALLY NICE specs considering.. It's a handy tool for folks like me who already have 3 notebooks, like to have [access to] one wherever I go, but it's not practical to take a notebook everywhere [without looking like a tool]. The N800 has always been attractive, because of it's swissarmyknife like features, but it was impractical to me without a keyboard and some size [ssh anyone?].. now the N810 is coming, and it's got a KEYBOARD, and even BETTER features, but it's !@$#%@#$% SMALLER!??!?!?!
I hate you Nokia; you've invented a wonderful, very attractvive information tool that does nearly everything I could think to ask for in a tablet (except maybe some nice USB master ports) and you've wrapped it complete fail!
US$0.02++
At least people are talking about this one - I never heard about the 770 till it was end-of-life. I might even buy one instead of whatever Apple product might or might not be coming out in November/December/Someday.
( http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=311919&cid=20788059 )
I have a 770, and it's great. The screen is beautiful, the OS is acceptable. It plays movies, mp3s, has a fine Linux terminal, tho you don't have to know it's running Linux if you don't want to. Bluetooth keyboard works fine (better with this than with the Palm I bought it for). Got it on Woot for $125. Used it for an art project for Burning Man. I'd have paid $500+ if it was exactly the same but ran embedded OSX instead.
Biggest problem: custom, expensive memory chips (MMC Mobile, which as far as I can tell are only used by Nokia, 2gb max, $50). It doesn't need a hard drive but if it's going to play music I need at least 8GB, movies as much as I can get. Could be a lot faster, too, but I would expect that to be fixed in later versions.
Same CPU, not a faster one, so the post is flawed.
It's N800 + GPS + smaller form factor + slideable backlit QWERTY keyboard + better positioned camera and new version of the debian-based OS.
It's NOT a phone. Phones that big would suck anyway. You use WLAN in cities, in public places, you use your existing phone with GPRS/edge/3G via bluetooth elsewhere. This was one of the wisest decisions Nokia made: I have gone through 3 phones in my 8 months of N800 use.
Compromises are compromises. Phones must be cheap, small, handy, with LONG battery time. Anything with a big screen won't do. Anything with a big form factor won't do. The iPhone is far too large.
I don't have N810 yet, I'll just sum up what the N800 (similar machine) is good for: irc (xterm, irssi, etc), movies (mplayer), remote use (SSH, telnet, VNC, RDP), plain old surfing, car GPS.
On top of that N810 has optimized flash that supposedly runs youtube vids at acceptable speed. OS2007 version failed at this, youtube worked, but too slowly.
iPhone runs on proprietary OS, with a real SDK coming out next year. The Maemo platform is now 2-3 years old, well understood and readily available. N800/N810 even have python bindings for most things :-)
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
I love the concept -- being able to surf the web while lying on the couch is really awkward with a laptop, and much nicer with a little tablet. Also, it's nice to take along and use at WiFi hotspots in airports and whatnot.
However, I soured on the N770 pretty quickly because it would crash all the time. The thing may run Linux, but it's a stripped-down version, with a completely new user interface, and thus there is plenty of room for Nokia to introduce bugs. I downloaded their system software update, but the crashes kept on coming. I'd say I had at least one crash a day; about half my sessions would end with a crash instead of a normal shutdown. In the end, I got so frustrated I threw it in the trash. I couldn't even in good conscience sell the thing on eBay.
I still like the concept, and I specifically do not consider the iPhone an alternative because I don't want a cell phone, but Nokia isn't getting any more of my money unless these later tablets (N800 and N810) are much better in the stability department.
I'd mod you up if I could. An N810 is a safe bet since it will work with the rest of your gear 5 years from now.
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
True enough, but I'm still waiting for the second version of the OpenMoko Neo 1973 - 480x640 with wireless.
> And I like that it's not a phone, it means you're not locked into anything.
For the Neo I like that it's _also_ a phone _and_ I'm not locked into anything.
I thought that's what USB port on the phone is for. On the side note it's good to hear that they have standby mode sorted out with linux kernel. It has been a major problem for the openMoko porject.
Get an iPhone, people. As much as I mock people who slavishly participate in mind-numbed Apple worship...
Unlike yourself, of course. Rather than debate this myself, head on over to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21206757/
From this article:
So here we are, three months later, and this remarkably inventive device that's so lacking as an actual phone but so promising as the be-all/end-all gadget is no better than at launch, and even less hopeful because of Apple's action against iPhone customizations that enable it to do more than just what Apple says it can and should do.
It runs LINUX, for chrissakes.
Well, yeah, it does! That just about guarantees that Nokia cannot play the same games that Apple is playing with the iPhone and that the capabilities of the Nokia N8XX will only get better with time.
If you want something to surf the web and not look like a clown, don't get an iPhone!
That Vista notebook you speak of...
Is it 5 inches wide, 2 inches high and half an inch thick?
Does it weigh 8 ounces?
Does it have a touch screen and a flip out querty keyboard?
Does it have a built in GPS?
Get an iPhone, people.
An iPhone to me is as good as a paperweight, as I am not an American nor does AT&T offer its service to Canadians. In order for it to even function at all I would need to subscribe to Rogers wireless (the only service in the country with an iPhone-compatible network) then hack the iPhone to get *most* of the functionality--the kind of thing Apple likes to litigate over.
I already HAVE a phone and don't WANT another phone. I don't need a fancy GPS and don't want one. I don't really care if someone thinks I "look like a clown" if I can actually visit web pages and SEE them properly (not on some tiny low-res screen). It isn't supposed to replace a phone and a phone will never replace what it does.
And you also seem to mention that it runs Linux as if that is a bad thing. Who cares if it is Linux? My girlfriend's cellphone is Linux powered and she doesn't even care and didn't even know it was until I told her. what matters more is how it acutally functions, and the iPhone seems to be much more about form than function (it has not buttons with tactile feedback, is locked into one carrier's system, severely restricts third-party apps, is over-priced...not much that seems appealing to me).
There is no way this device will sell as big as a popular cellphone because it isn't filling that need. There is a substantial-enough market, however, for a device equipped with a REAL browser and readable display and a vendor that isn't a control freak. Users from warehouse order selectors and couriers to gadget-crazy hobbyists and hackers could appreciate this thing.
In 2008/2009, the dominant web tablet will be... the iPod touch.* Specifically, once it has been revved once or twice and you can get first-gen units for $100-150. At that point, buying one just for the Internet capabilities will be common. The iPod and iPhone are being sold as music players and phones, respectively, and that's why people will buy them en masse today, but sometime soon we'll turn around and realize that we've all got these great web tablets in our hands and that's when things will get fun. No one is rushing out to buy expensive, (mostly) single-purpose web tablets today--but people are rushing out to buy music players and phones that happen to have browsers.
One neat thing that will happen is early-adopters will start to do more cool home-automation stuff. Once all the devices in your home have built-in web-based control panels, every iPhone and iPod touch will become the ultimate universal remote. I'm not saying I'll pick it up every time I want to change the channel, but there are lots of other cool things I have in mind--lighting, security, etc. I'm in the midst of hooking up a security camera system at home that will feed into a Mac mini which will serve out the cameras' pictures like a webcam--so with my iPhone, I'll be able to check on my house at any time from anywhere. I'm hardly the first person to do this, but the main reason I am doing it is because I now have with me a small device that I can see the pics with at any time--at work, on the road, on vacation, with or without WiFi access.
* note to Nokia fans,anyone who thinks a 320x480 screen is too small, and anyone else who doesn't like the iPhone--I'm not saying it'll be the best web tablet, just the most common. My personal belief is that the iPhone's shrink-zoom-pan mode of web browsing is an inelegant workaround and I'd love more pixels. That said, it does do the job OK. And when looking at sites optimized for the small screen, it's great to have a device that is so physically small.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
There is no FM transmitter included.
I'm not exactly an expert on this popularity thing, but I'm pretty sure if you're walking around town with your internet tablet so you can Facebook/MySpace/whatever on the go, you probably need more social networking aid than any computer can provide.
My wife and I got a couple of Nokia 770's (cheap) a few months ago on Woot when the unit was being discontinued. For the most part I like the unit and the concept. I particularly like the fact that you can leave it in 'hibernate' mode most of the time and it comes on almost instantly. The first connection (after leaving hibernate) to WiFi is slow (a few seconds) but it's not bad after that.
I've got an old Linksys WRT54G, and the tablet is usable anywhere in the house or for that matter on my property (1/4 acre). The Opera browser is usable, but not great. RSS news reader works fine. On trips I can take and view videos converted from my PVR. With a 2 GB card, I can put 4-5 hours of video on the device. The screen is a nice size and the resolution 800x400 is good for a handheld device. Battery life while surfing is about 3-4 hours between recharges. I've not tried VOIP with it.
Unlike certain other handheld devices, it's a very open platform. Lots of good OSS applications available that add considerably to the utility of the device. One of the best is the FBReader which turns the device into a very nice e-book reader.
From a usability point of view, navigation is not real well designed. Input with the stylus is tedious, but OK in small doses.
Overall, I like the device and am glad I bought it.
[Insert pithy quote here]
given the fact that price will not be much different, that this nokia has more tech.details that are better than the neo1973...
what will happen to the neo1973 (openmoko) now???
It has to be priced lower than a laptop or forget it. Why spend $479 when you can get a simple laptop for $499.
The iPhone has a 320×480 resolution screen. The 810 has 800x480. Anything less than 800 wide is not enough resolution to surf normal pages comfortably, so the iPhone is not even a contender.
Which is why the iPhone pretends to be a 960px-wide screen and shrinks content, which you can then zoom in on and pan around. It's not an ideal solution--and one that would have never been needed if people would have designed web pages like they were meant to be designed, instead of leading us to the current situation where "Anything less than 800 wide is not enough resolution to surf normal pages comfortably"--but it works pretty well.
And I like that it's not a phone, it means you're not locked into anything.
Which is why God^H^H^HSteve Jobs introduced the iPod touch. Which, by the way, is $200 less than this Nokia.
I'm not saying the iPod touch is better in every way than this Nokia. But it is in fact a quite decent web tablet, and if you don't need the features (removable storage, camera) of this Nokia, it's definitely worth looking at.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Not acording to all reports I've read all over the web since yesterday. ArsTechnica says it's the same procesor, only clocked 80MHz faster, at 400MHz. For last couple of years I've learned to trust ArsTechnica over any random slashdotter when it comes to verifying their sources.
Robert
Bastard Operator From 193.219.28.162
If it doesn't, then it has no chance in the PDA marketplace. I know, I had a Nokia 770, it worked great; only problem, calendar sucked. It did have the ability to set an alarm, once per day. WTF? How useful is that?
Seriously, who puts out a PDA that doesn't have a working calendar and expects it to be a success?
-Runz
It's not a phone. Why don't they release a version of this that is capable of cell phone (cell phone, not VOIP phone) ??
.. not at home where I have WiFi access (i have a laptop at home too).
Most people think it has phone network capabilities and are surprised when they find out it doesnt have it. The purpose of a browser in such a small factor is to use on the go
Nokia doesn't get it. Neither does Motorola. But Apple gets it.
Apparently reading the tech specs requires too much of an effort for lots of /. readers.
From the article, The N810 uses an Arm 400MHz processor, versus the 320MHz used by the N800.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
Come on, I coud imagine using it for more than casual websurfing, among things it has a built-in GPS receiver, audio (movies?) player, phone, ... Also it beats the iPhone because it's not locked to an operator and it's Linux, so you can probably run anything you'd want on it. It's pure geek porn.
I couldn't agree with your post more. On top of all that, I can make very cheap calls with skype out when I visit the parents. And I don't have to pay expensive data rates just to browse.
I have a 770 and am waiting impatiently for a new N800 to ship. ($275CDN vs $500 and another month, I'll wait on the N810.)
I have three machines at home: A PC that I almost never use, a dual-boot MacBook and a server for media (and, as it turns out, UPnP music streaming.)
The 770, which is a dated, slow version of the N800 which is now a dated, slower version of the N810 constantly amazes me. I'm not using it as I had intended, but I'm using it a lot.
For starters, because I already had a UPnP server running, I get full access to all of my music on a half pound device. I don't have to sync to it, I can access this from anywhere in the house. For me, this has been very convenient and has cut in on MP3 player usage.
It's also very capable as a browser, and I find myself rarely bothering to go to the basement to grab my 5.5lb laptop. Why bother when all I need to do is look up the weather?
It can also be made to be a decent little PDA. With GPE, I can sync with Evolution and keep my calendar and address book in sync. With this, it has finally killed off my use of a Palm.
Paired with a Bluetooth keyboard, it's a full little computer. With RDesktop, VNC, SSH and an XTerm, I have used it to patch servers at work, write documents etc. This isn't like using a PDA, this is like using a small computer. In fact, being a little Linux box, it's a lot of fun to tinker with this thing. (If that's your cup of tea. it is mine.)
Yes, all of the above could be done with a laptop, which maybe even cheaper, but it wasn't necessary and wasn't as convenient for me.
Now, for $500ish, you might have a hard time justifying the purchase, but I paid $150 for the 770 and the N800 is selling for as little as $220. That's cheap for what is a fully-functional (for me) little Linux box.
Oh, and for me, one of the best parts is that it's _NOT_ a phone. No monthly plans, no extra fees. In fact, the only thing that bugs me about the N810 is the built-in GPS that I don't want (but could be handy when traveling)
Right now, you're correct. The core functionality is browsing. However, the thriving Maemo community is doing all sorts of weird and wonderfully unexpected things with these little machines. It's still not 100% essential for me, and if I needed one machine to do it all, I'd still grab the MacBook, but more and more I reach for the 770 instead.
How can you claime that iPhone is not a contender?
I would have considered 810 had it -not- been for the iPhone. Same for 4-5 other people at work.
When did Slashdot turn into such a depressing place?
Here you have a device that is built on the Linux kernel, X.org server, GTK toolkit, GStreamer media framework, supports both open SIP and closed Skype, has a browser derived from Firefox 3.0 that can actually use Firefox plugins and includes Flash 9... if your only reaction is "what's the use?" you must have absolutely no imagination or be totally burned out on tech. The GPS + included Wayfinder software alone makes this device a no-brainer over any TomTom or Garmin in my book, as not only do you get the navigator and the car mount in the box, you also get a kick-ass hackable, pocketable device.
The reception at Engadget/Gizmondo seems to have been positive across the board. Are they wrong, or is Slashdot just full of bitter and cynical people these days?
It's like deja vu all over again.
Oh look, a guy on the internet who is smarter than everyone else!
while i love the neo, there is one thing i want to say:
resolution isnt everything.
even if you have 1080+ resolution, it does not help if the screen has the cross section of a postage stamp...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
I have the N770. An interesting device that shows a lot of potential, but at the same time disappoints in many ways. It is way too slow, has no phone functionality, and the software development has not been prioritized enough. I just got an Iphone a week ago, and I have to say I dont anticipate getting any other device for a long time. I do not like Apples proprietary attitude, but everything just works superbly.
Unfortunately Nokias lack of priority given to this device and their fear of cannibalizing the phone market has kept them from realizing the potential that was there. I am a bit attracted to the GPS and keyboard, and the open platform and screen has always been great for these devices.
But to really realize the potential that is there and not be overrun by Apple, they need to put in a phone, devote serious resources towards development and add multitouch screen.
Here is my pro and con list of the 810:
Pro:
-Keyboard
-Open platform
-Good screen
-GPS
-Radio
-Expandability (SD cards)
Con
-Slow (assuming it hasnt jumped lightyears ahead of the 770)
-No phone
-No multitouch
-A bit large
-Not enough development
All in all I dont think I will buy one, but it is close. Had I not gotten the Iphone I would definitely gotten one, but now it is just not enough.
I recently went on a trip to New York city, armed with my N800. Here's what I found it really useful for:
The major shortcoming though is the dependency on free public WiFi. It's getting pretty hard to find a working open WiFi connection, and without internet connectivity the N800's usefulness is somewhat limited... These things will really take off once WiMAX or something like it becomes ubiquitous.
Yes, but does it ru...oh.
It's not a cellphone and it isn't tied to being your cellphone. It's an Internet tablet. If you want to use the Internet over your cellphone, great! Just pair with your cellphone's bluetooth and use it as a modem.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I'm using my n800 to post this. furthermore, I'm on the john. Sometimes I feel I'm too connected.
That's a matter of personal preference. I personally prefer a small, relatively cheap cell phone connected via bluetooth since I use that more than a PDA/tablet. (presently I use a Nokia 6820) I also carry said cell phone in my pants pocket normally. Putting a $400+ device in my pocket for features I need only occasionally doesn't make sense based on how I use these things. Too much risk of damage/loss to my mind. Plus I have yet to see a smartphone (including the iPhone, Treos and Blackberries) that has a screen big enough to make web surfing practical, much less pleasant. I'm just not satisfied with the tradeoffs I have to make with the smartphones so far. For the times when I need a PDA/tablet, the advantages (especially a bigger screen) outweigh the need for an extra device & weight and when I don't need it, I don't have to lug it around. Still a tradeoff but one that works for me. Your needs may be different than mine but that doesn't make either of us wrong.
I'm intrigued by this Nokia device but I'm suspicious how well it will actually connect and work with other devices, especially my PC. The software Nokia has provided to connect to other devices (especially PCs) has historically sucked. Everything is overly proprietary and flakey. Forget integrating address books unless you are an Outlook user. Nokia tends to make software that is just enough for them to checkbox a feature (i.e. the calendar on most of their cell phones) without actually being useful for that purpose. I'd love to try one of these hands on but doubt I'll ever get the chance.
Still no fire buttons.
Did anyone else reading the summary visualize themselves in the position of one with a large bat ready to smash the hell out of one pitched at you? Am I the only one?
I'm a happy owner of a N800. I bought it to read two on-line editions of local newspaper. Before that I could by a paper for about 1. So the price tag is worth about a year of newspaper for me. Not so expensive... And I've got email, jabber, ssh, web, street maps, camera, FM radio, music and video player, e-book reader, agenda and batle for wesnoth...
The only drawback IMHO is the battery life. I need to plug-it after about 3 hours of use... But that's only on the move. I do not carry any laptop anymore. Just a bluetooth keybord in one pocket and the N800 in the other. So my differents desktops and N800 are doing the job.
I like all the new features of the N810 but the reduced form factor... I first wanted to jump to the upgrade but reduction of form factor induce some restraints...
--
I'm not english native speaker (nor writer).
The Nokia is a joke for those users.
Symbol, Intermec, and other companies already do an excellent job of ruggedized handhelds that do GSM, CDMA, Bluetooth, and WiFi connectivity. Yes, they're a little bulkier, because they're armored. And when they hit cement from a 4' drop a few dozen times and get a good soaking in the rain, and either keep working or are repaired under an extended industrial warranty, they're worth every penny.
But sure, as a gadget-crazy hobbiest, I'm excited about the Nokia.
Video Conferencing. Freaking video conferencing in a handheld device, of all things. You can videoconference with another N800 or N810 unit. Or you can videoconference with a PC. Holy crap!
It may not be ultra-useful, but it is darn cool. And you can bet that more mobile devices are going to start doing this.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Does the iPod touch have built in GPS, 2 SD slots, builtin webcam and flip out keyboard and run an extensible version of Linux? No? Then why are you wasting our time with crap?
But hey, let's not quibble about a mere order of magnitude.
geez, of all places /. should be drooling over this thing. get cingular with unlimited media net for 20/month and you're good anywhere. but get hspda i think its called not edge. i am on my n800 at work tethered to my razr. with gps i plan on someday making a location based reminder and i can do that more easily because it's completely open. i can do real web browsing. i can look at fark photoshop threads unlike other pdas/smartphones i have seen so far. the n800 is fast enough for most things.
Don't tell anyone. But video conferencing has been working with the N800 for quite some time. Google and you'll find plenty more references.
About the OpenMoko... I'm curious to see some more opinions on it. I was reading about it on their site and getting pretty excited, to the point that I'd just about decided on it as my next phone, as soon as the 2nd version comes out.
But then I read some things in the mailing-list archives that make it sound a lot further than I'd hoped from being "ready for prime-time". Even some of the most recent posts (like, within the past week or two) make it sound like basic cell-phone functionality has only just recently begun to be usable, and only barely so. Can that be true, this far into development?
I'm a developer, geek, OSS enthusiast, etc., and I'm as willing as the next geek to live with quite a lot of rough edges and all. But I do need a working phone. Everything else can be flaky, but the ability to reliably make and receive phone calls, and send and receive SMS, isn't really negotiable. Comments from anyone here with hands-on experience would be much appreciated.
David Gould
main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
Funny that FBreader is an ugly duckling on this platform, it looks pathetic and does not integrate into the normal file opening facility, using a butt-ugly leftover dialog from a dusty corner of Gtk+ instead.
But my wife does not seem to mind, as she reads books on the N800 all the time.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
The OpenMoko people are at pains to point out that OpenMoko != Neo 1973. Just very closely related.
> But then I read some things in the mailing-list archives that make it sound a lot further than I'd hoped from being "ready for prime-time".
Yeah, I'm following it too. And I expect even when the next hardware is ready in December, there will still be months before all the driver bugs are sorted out. I'm not bothered; there's likely to be a huge amount of interest at that point, _and_ they're working closely with the chipset manufacturers, which is quite in contrast to Linux on so many other devices.
> but the ability to reliably make and receive phone calls, and send and receive SMS, isn't really negotiable
Oddly enough, that's the one thing I can wait for. Having a PDA/MP3 player/WiFi device is what I really want, all in one package (and the phone too of course, when that's ready - I don't have one now).
Also, if you look back through the list and see how much progress they've made in the last few months, I'm pretty confident. Anyway, my background is embedded devices very much like this, so I can always hack it myself.
Spoken like someone who has never deployed technology in an industrial or outdoor setting.
That is exactly my line of work actually. In heavy industrial and outdoor settings yes, these are not appropriate. In a retail environment and certain warehousing applications however the extra cost of ruggedised devices is not required (A couple of food production facilities and medical equipment testing outfit come to mind)
Symbol, Intermec, and other companies already do an excellent job of ruggedized handhelds that do GSM, CDMA, Bluetooth, and WiFi connectivity.
Both Symbol AND Intermec have, from time to time, offered several products that are in fact modified versions of consumer devices (Symbol had a ruggedised Palm Pilot with integrated barcode scanner for example, and some of Intermec's products are off-the-shelf electronics in Intermec clothing with Intermec add-ons--I used to work for an Intermec reseller).
Success doesn't just mean sales directly to end users at the consumer level; Nokia could license the technology or partner up with an Intermec or Symbol and generate revenue from derivative products as well. The problem with these companies however is that they seem to be reluctant participants in open/Free software development. I think the situation is a bit better now (you can make more use of Visual Studio on the WinCE based devices for example), however I remember the dark days of having to buy EZBuilder and kludge-away to do embedded development practically on those Intermec 2400-series units.
On that note however, Intermec came out with a handheld batch scanner that ran uCLinux instead of DOS or WinCE so it looked promising that they might change their ways. Like many of its products, it was largely not designed in-house (it was a Unitech device in Intermec clothing with some enhancements). The problem is that it is this little monochrome batch handheld, though bluetooth and GPRS modules were supposed to be make for it. I thought this would be the start of a shift for Intermec, however I haven't seen but a trickle of Linux news from them in the 3 years since then.
I am not currently aware of a tablet form-factor device from Intermec or Symbol with the Nokia unit's capabilities. Intermec or Symbol would do real well to establish an ODM agreement with Nokia to make a ruggedised version with barcode and/or RFID readers built in.
It can be done, just expect to pay easily $200 plus service contract for mere CDMA. On the other hand, that little module will fit right into the bottom of the EEE, so it'll be all kinds of clean. Add another $50 for a USB GPS dongle and you've got quite the little $550ish package.
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
Hey, you're talking to a roomful of geeks. Geeks who have a great deal of experience with the single device that they've purchased. And they've spent so much time with that device, they believe it is the best thing ever. ESPECIALLY the iPhone users. I mean, read through half of those posts, "This isn't as good as my iPhone." "Big deal. This is just another iTouch wanna be." "My laptop can outdo this." "My smartphone does all this and more." "Is this the Foleo clone?"
Imagination isn't the problem here. It is close-mindedness, and being sold on their own personal devices being the best. Boy, Nokia has got a tough road to climb with this product.
The Japanese market doesn't really need those internet tablets, because they have been surfing the web (and lots of other services, including emails instead of SMS/MMS) for years, using their mobile phones. Granted, the screen isn't as large, but the screens of mobile phones in Japan is still larger than the usual EU/USA mobile, thus the popularity of clamshell phones. They tend to get pretty damn thin by now too.
It's not touch screen either, it doesn't have a thumbkeyboard (only the usual digit keyboard), but I don't think an internet table would be half as attractive in a country where providers have been pushing and giving their customers ubiquitous internet access for a long time. You rarely see people using PDAs or blackberries in Japan, because phones already do everything you need (search infos on the web, book your cinema, live GPS with voice directions, pay your beers at the convenient store, email, video conferencing).
In fact if this seems to indicate one thing, it is by how much the rest of the world lags behind in terms of telecommunications, if you need a separate device, that uses WiFi instead of the ubiquitous GPS/UMTS network, to read Slashdot when you're out. Providers in Europe and the USA need to wake up and stop charging ridiculous pricing for internet connectivity over 3G. The infrastructure is there, it's just time to sell customers what they want, at a price they can afford.
Disclaimer: I'm European, but in Switzerland, I can't afford getting online off the UMTS network. I'll be ordering my N810 soon.
theefer
Oddly enough, that's the one thing I can wait for. Having a PDA/MP3 player/WiFi device is what I really want, all in one package (and the phone too of course, when that's ready - I don't have one now). *shrug* Different people, different needs. In my case, the device it'll be primarily replacing is a phone, and I can't really be without a working one. Also, if you look back through the list and see how much progress they've made in the last few months, I'm pretty confident. True, I'm sure it'll mature quickly. It was just a surprise to see that, this late in the game, there should be any question of the basic cell-phone functions working. I would have expected stuff like that to stabilize first, with special features and spit-and-polish on the GUI coming after.
David Gould
main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
I have an N770 and love it. I've been wanting a n800, but there hasn't been a strong incentive to upgrade. No I can't watch YouTube on the 770, but supposedly can on the 800 (and probably on the 810), but I don't spend much time watching YouTube anyway. Actually, I don't use the device much on line. I am glad it has WiFi, it makes uploading songs easier. My 2 main uses for it are:
1. MP3 player - Yea sure it isn't an 80GB device, and I have to mix up my songs once in a while manually. Acutally I think the current mix of songs I have crammed into 1GB is the same for the last 6 months. No big deal, at least I have it all on one device.
2. GPS display - I just moved from Minneapolis to Dallas. I still havn't found the best way home, but using the GPS, at least I know when I am heading north or east like I should be. Plus if I want to find somewhere new, I can get a route plotted, and follow it. New restuarant, new hobby store, whatever, I be seriously in a world of hurt without it.
You are supposed to be able to use a bluetooth phone to connect to the internet remotely, I haven't got it to work, but I did load opera mini on my phone for when I must know something on the road. So I figure between my phone and the 770, I am a pretty well connected nerd.
> and a vendor that isn't a control freak.
...at least, that's *my* take on what they said.
More than anything else, this is what turns me off Apple products. Apple has been this way ever since I first bought one of them - TiBook. I hate the whole 'menu-at-top-of-screen', 'click-to-focus', 'only-focus-in-foreground' menu system. I tried to get used to it, but after a few years, I gave up and loaded Ubuntu - which was a complete breath of fresh air. I could make the window manager behave the way *I* wanted to - no such functionality from Apple, of course, because they know better - not.
IMO, Apple is all about trying to impress other people.
Yes, I'd much rather have an N800 (or, perhaps, N810), than an iPhone.
In any case, I recently went to Maemo training, and they expressed how the target for this product isn't 'the masses', and that it's really a concept device - more from a software/platform point of view than hardware.
Of course, like the iPhone, it isn't likely to approach S60 sales anytime soon, but they don't expect that. They define the success more as a function of whether it enables their future use of Linux in a significant way.
Max.
A $15000+ BWM|Harley|Ducati motorcycle will pay itself off in the money you'd have to spend instead for hookers if you had bought the Hyundai econobox...
Unless you go for the dirty hippie girl types who don't shave...
To each their own!
I've been playing with video using Microsoft Portrait on my Sprint Mogul (HTC Hermes, a PocketPC phone) for a while now. It works pretty well. Skype has better sound quality, but Skype for Mobile doesn't seem to be doing video yet.
Da Blog
See maemo.org for a catalog of FLOSS applications.
Nokia uses the Hilden UI, based on GTK, designed for the touch screen and limited screen size. For the most part, I like it. When you click on a field needing text entry, a keyboard image pops up, and you click on the keys with the stylus or your finger. I use the stylus because I don't like fingerprints on the screen. The new model has a keyboard, but I doubt that it really makes typing much easier. You can select text and delete, replace, or copy the selected text.
I haven't tried spreadsheets, but don't see any reason why you couldn't work with them.
The 800x480 screen is great, but movie watching is a mixed bag. Some videos play well, others can't keep up and frames are skipped. I don't know if the bottleneck is CPU power or updating the screen. Rumor is that OS updates will bring faster drivers. Typical Internet video resolutions work OK, and others can be transcoded to be useable. I haven't played with this very much.
The included email application has a very minimal address book. I should install something better, but I mostly my n800 to read mail, rather than send.
The buzz now is about the n810, but there are many good reviews of the n800 on the web. With minor exceptions, everything said about the n800 applies to the n810. The software has been updated several times since those early reviews, but they should give you a feel for these devices.
You should really try using an iPhone before you dismiss it. It's screen resolution is more than enough to read slashtot without scrolling from side to side. I'm using my iPhone to post this even though my laptop is sitting right next to me. I pretty much only use computers for work anymore.
1) For watching lectures downloaded from MIT or Berkeley during my 1 hour commute on the train. This was the primary reason I bought the N800, and a laptop just doesn't come into question for this purpose. The N800 has a good large screen, so it's great for still being able to read what's written on the blackboard. Berkeley's videos often need to be re-encoded though. Occasionally I put films on it too, but action films definitely need to be re-encoded first.
2) For making VoIP calls while on campus. The sound quality is often much better than with a cell phone, plus it's free.
3) For traveling. When I'm at the train station and need to find out about a connection, getting information from the station's website is a LOT faster than going to the information counter. In addition, I've often loaded up maps ahead of time when I know I'll be going somewhere without wireless access.
Also, the price for the N800 was definitely too high for my liking, but since I needed it, it's been worth it to me anyway.
I like to try before I buy. Short of finding one in a physical shop, is there any way to play with a demo of the N810 OS? For example, an emulator, or a downloadable virtual machine?
Well, I own the 770 that has the same screen. A while ago I bought iPod touch. And while the touch has lower resolution, it has replaced the 770 as my internet-tablet of choice.
The browser and the entire experience is just superior on the touch than what it is on the 770. Yes, I do occasionally have to zoom in on the webpages, but that's not really an issue at all. Dataentry (like these textboxes) is a lot better on the touch than on the 770. Also, touch is maybe half the size of the 770, as well as being a lot lighter. I can take the touch with me wherever I go, I can't do that with the 770.
There are other things as well: touch plays back the video I find in the net, 770 does not. touch has youtube, 770 does not. I can use touch with my fingers, while 770 practically requires a stylus. The look and feel of the touch is miles ahead of the 770 (770 is not bad in this are, but still) and it just feels a lot snappier.
Yes, the screen on the 770 is bigger and it has better resolution that touch has. But that's not enough. the resolution on the touch is good enough, while it offers lots of other great features that are lacking in the 770.
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The Ultimate ultra mobile PC at a price you can afford. With the recent 770 sale I got the entire combo for under £100.
I have an open source word processor (abiword), GPS (maemomapper) and various other apps installed. If you write a lot, then it really is an amazing device - no need to lug around a big laptop. Documents are easily transferable to desktop pc.
When I get tired of writing, I simply open up the ebook software and get stuck into the latest book I'm reading (also good for reading downloaded comics).
Show me a similar device for the price....
I have an N700 that I bought on Woot -- so I can't offer a fair comment on the N810's price.
I can say this about mine though:
1. It's small enough to fit in my car's glove box (title & registration box...)
2. I can use it to check news, email, SSH into my servers in an emergency...
3. It's quite easy to read web pages on the screen.
4. The on-screen keyboard is relatively easy to use for what it is.
and
5. It's almost perfect for leaving in my car or throwing into my backpack for the times
when I *must* get back online, when I don't really want to lug a notebook computer.
Presumably the new model is faster ans more capable, and it supports Flash video, so I'll buy
one when the current one finally fails. (So far, it's been pretty rugged.)
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
I'll go to my grave not understanding slashdot mods. The parent got a +5, insightful. I replied to a couple of his points and get nicked a point for being offtopic. If it's not a fabulous post and not worth modding up, fine, but offtopic? Yes, I'm talking about the iPod touch, but everything I say about it relates to the Nokia being discussed. WTF???
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Ignore the resolution, look a the Pixels Per Inch (PPI).
(from http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html)
# 3.5-inch (diagonal) widescreen multi-touch display
# 480-by-320-pixel resolution at 163 ppi
http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
4.13-nch WVGA (800 x 480)
Which math + Google calculator: sqrt((800 * 800) + (480 * 480)) / 4.13 = 225.896441
225 PPI
(Sony's PSP clocks in at 130, the Neo 1973 is supposed to have a 280 PPI screen)
Now Apple's products both look very slick, and the screens are pretty okay. But put an N800 next to them, and compare the screen. You can really see where Nokia screen shines, and thats with reading text on the screen.
The 770 was two models ago, and the remaining stock went on sale a while ago for just over a hundred dollars. The 810 has a slide-out keyboard, which doesn't require smearing your thumbs over the screen. (Btw, have you tried the 770's popup thumboard? No, not the stylus keyboard...) It also has youtube and is smaller than the 770 (while still have the huge screen).
Here's a screenshoot showing Arabic support. You just need to install an Arabic font ;-)
http://foolab.org/node/1714
"The 770 was two models ago"
Yep. And I fail to see that much differences between 770 and N800. Yes, N800 is a bit snappier, but I think that touch still has an edge there. Yes there are other extra features in the N800 (like a webcam), but I don't have use for those.
"The 810 has a slide-out keyboard, which doesn't require smearing your thumbs over the screen."
While the screen on the touch does smudge up a bit, it's not noticeable when using the device. You can notice the smudges when the screen if off, but not when it's in use.
"Btw, have you tried the 770's popup thumboard? No, not the stylus keyboard...)"
I have, and I find it somewhat clumsy. My typing-speed is simply way better on the touch than it is on the 770, thumb-board included.
"It also has youtube and is smaller than the 770 (while still have the huge screen)."
While it's smaller, it's still roughly twice as big as the touch is. I mean, let's look at the specs:
Touch
Thickness: 8mm
Width: 62mm
Height: 110mm
Weight: 120g
N810
Thickness: 14mm
Width: 128mm
Height: 72mm
Weight: 226g
By my calculations, N810 has over twice the volume on the touch, while also being almost twice as heavy.
I carry touch in the "coin-pocket" (the same pocket Jobs used to demo the iPod nano), whereas 770, N800 and N810 could not fit there. And I would still have to carry my iPod AND my cell-phone with me. With touch, I can just take my cell-phone and my touch with me and be done with it.
And all this is without taking in to account the superior look and feel of the touch when compared to the Internet Tablets. The UI simply looks and feels superior. the UI on the tablets is a bit... clumsy and awkward. the tablets have all kinds of plastic buttons and unsmooth surfaces, whereas touch is smooth steel and glass.
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Talk about missing the point by a mile. That was exactly what the GP was trying to say.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JVZ6E9EnJ3I