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New England Patriots Obtain Online Ticket Reseller Names
Billosaur writes "The New England Patriots sued on-line ticket re-seller StubHub (a subsidiary of eBay) to obtain the list of names of people who tried to buy or sell Patriots tickets using the service. StubHub lost an appeal in Massachusetts state court last week, and was compelled to hand over the list of 13,000 names. It is currently not clear what the Patriots organization intends to do with the names, but they have intimated that they may revoke the privileges of any season ticket holders on the list. The Center for Democracy and Technology, a Washington D.C.-based advocacy group, said the court order to turn over the names infringes on the privacy rights of Patriots fans. At issue is whether using the on-line service allows an end-run around team rules and Massachusetts state law, by allowing ticket holders to charge extreme mark-ups on their tickets." How does this ruling apply to other pieces of transient property?
in a fair society, venues would be able to set prices at market prices, thus eliminating the need for entities such as stub-hub. However, setting prices at market would likely cause an uproar, so why should anyone have sympathy for organizations/individuals trying to profit from charity to society?
I would really only want to hide my name if I'd bought season tickets for the Dolphins.
The issue is the fact that they are selling the tickets above the face value.
If I remember correctly, here in MA is is completely legal to resell tickets - just not for profit.
Our local sports teams have more than just a few insanely loyal fans who will do just about anything to see a game. People try to take advantage of this, which results in prices nearing mortage levels (and at 300k for a 2 bed home in the suburbs here, that it quite a bit of money).
I'm all for people being enterprising and making a little money - say 10% or at most 20% above face value. But anything over that is taking advantage of the fans, and preying on their obsessive love of the sports they love.
Regardless, a ticket is a ticket -- ONE butt in ONE seat. What difference does it make who's butt it is, or how much the human paid for the seat? Why is ONE person any more or less entitled to any given ticket on any given Sunday than somebody else? I don't get it.
Isn't it ironic that the team allegedly invading privacy is called the Patriots?
the court order to turn over the names infringes on the privacy rights of Patriots fans
Too effing bad. Every sports related season ticket by any team in any sport always has rules attached. And if one of those rules is season ticket holders can't resell their tickets, then the franchise has every right to find out who is reselling and cut them off. If you don't like their rules, then don't buy their tickets. That's your only option.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
This is an interesting case, but scalping laws vary by state, so it should pretty much only apply to MA. In Cali, it's only illegal to resale if you do it on event premises (CA Penal Code 346) without permission. It may be less stringent than that (I seem to recall it needing to be on the day of the event for over face value to qualify, but I'm not sure and IANAL). Personally I hate professional scalpers, but at the same time I don't have a problem with some fan selling their seat (even for above face) if they can't make it. I've used stubhub to purchase tickets to Giants games in the past, and probably will again in the future. You'd have to be naïve to believe that the Patriots are doing this for anyone's best interest but their own, and I do believe they're merely trying to corner the market for their tickets (must be taking notes from their business partner, ticketmon^H^Haster).
Sadly, PS/2 was yet another victim of USB, which doesn't care what you plug into it, the electrical slut.
under state law tickets can be resold just at a very low profit though "the team rules" forbid any resale. that is anti-competitive though hording tickets and selling them at 10x what they are worth isn't any better. don't feel sorry for either side, neither is correct- both are screwing people over.
well, as far as the whole season ticket issue goes, i wonder if part of getting the tickets is that you sign a contract with the team about what you can and can not do with those tickets. And if one of the things you can not do is resell them for a profit over the legal state limit, there might be some very worried season ticket holders out there right now. As a contrast to this, the philadelphia phillies use stubhub as their official 'reseller' and even sent out links to stubhub's website in some of their post season emails. This could be an interesting one to watch.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
We need the Department of Gameland Security. If you want a ticket, you must ask permission 72 hours in advance. Upon entering the stadium, you must show your passport or a government approved ID. Under the state's secrets act, you are prohibited from discussing the events. Woe to you who cheers for the wrong team. You will be placed on the "no seat list". See, this is why the airlines really want ID...to prevent you from selling your ticket. Don't be surprised to see it here also "for your protection".
What?
You are all missing the most important point though. It is not that the Patriots have a right to find out which season ticket holder's are reselling their tickets. The big problem here is that instead of producing a list of season ticket holders and forcing Stubhub to only reveal information on these people, stubhub had to turn over ALL customer names to the patriots. I am not a season ticket holder. I am not a patriot ticket holder. Yet now they have my name and a list of tickets I may have bought or sold LEGALLY.
This should scare you!!!
While I agree with you in principle, there's more to it than that.
The venue has every right to revoke these tickets. However, what's at issue is whether or not StubHub has any obligation to tell the venue which tickets are being sold. If they're not based in Massachusetts, the fact that what they're doing violates Massachusetts law is entirely irrelevant. Unless there's a federal law (or state law in the state they do operate in), they have every right to tell the venue to figure it out on their own.
If a state banned football (or whatever sport it is that the Patriots play), should that require them to snitch on residents of that state?
Seriously...
If there weren't consumers on the street willing to pay these prices, it wouldn't happen.
Bash me for being a republican, I really don't care... however... being a republican I believe in less government involvement... I take responsibility in my own actions rather than waiting for government to step in. If Brokers are capitalizing on consumers paying stupid money to get tickets... well it's the fault of the consumers who are dumb enough to pay those prices.
Will I pay $2k to a broker so my daughter and niece can go see Hanna Montana? Hell No!
Will I trade in crazy cash or capital investments to see my Rockies in the World Series? (yes I am from Colorado) Hell no!
Wanna cry to the government because somebody is charging too much? Quit Crying! Just don't pay it.
Do your children hate you because you won't cater to the needs dictated by Jessica, Britney, Paris, Lyndsey, etc etc etc...? They'll get over it.
Same applies to all of us (including me) sports fanatics. I would sacrifice a substantial amount to go see World Series game when one of my teams are in contention. However I won't do it in favor of feeding somebody else's greed.
This story is an interesting counterpoint to the news that Major League Baseball has agreed to endorse StubHub as their official ticket reseller.
Personally, I'm torn on this issue. Basically, as a person on a fairly standard middle class income, it sucks that I'll likely never be able to attend major sporting events because scalpers quickly scoop up all of the tickets and price them out of range of the normal fan. On the other hand, if teams insist on building stadiums that don't hold the number of fans that would actually be willing to go to the games (for example, Invesco Field in Denver was built to almost exactly the same capacity as the old Mile High Stadium, even though waiting lists for season tickets there are decades long), it might make sense to let the free market determine the price of seats.
Personally, I think that scalping should be illegal, as scalpers essentially make their money by employing dirty tricks to corner the market on tickets, thereby possibly artificially inflating the cost of tickets. I understand the free market argument, but I think measures should be taken so we can be sure that fans at a game represent a true cross section of the fan base for the team, not just the ones that can afford $500 or more for tickets.
"Scalping" should be legal. I bought a ticket, I should be able to do as I wish with it. Neither the government nor the venue should be able to stop me.
Care about privacy? Read this!
Less privileges for the rich. One less thing money can buy.
GO CHARGERS!
*ducks*
I kind of imagined that buying a season ticket entitled the buyer to something more than a privilege to attend games. I suppose they could give a prorated refund for unused tickets, but I doubt they would get very far "revoking" the ticket. I guess it's not a bad as "Hannah Montana" tickets, that the promoters seem to scalping themselves.
Plus it's only illegal if you get caught.
Yeah never but this on your Bar Exam!
"Well, he didn't get caught so it isn't murder." No, it is always murder regardless of whether or not you get caught.
Crime is ALWAYS illegal!
You just don't get penalized unless you get caught.
Kind of like potential and kinetic energy. It is still energy. (Of course it has been 20+ years since college physics so the analogy may be off a bit)
I guess I'm less optimistic than you. I just assume anytime I give my information to any entity they will sell, or give it to someone else. Which is why, I don't do it very often ... with my own name.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Isn't it ironic that the team allegedly invading privacy is called the Patriots?
What privacy? These people gave their info to an online retailer, of course it is going to be shared with 3rd parties. The only thing different in this case is that the retailer is not getting paid to share the info.
The rich and privileged get to go to any game at a whim. (and get the best seats)
Others have to sell their car to see their favorite team.
as for: That's a pretty simple philosophy. How do sweatshops fit into it?
I wish people with simple-minded unrealistic ideas would stop voting for liars and thieves.
Wait, you mean it's still a crime when it's Web 2.0.
No 2.0 way!!!
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
The people who tried (but didn't succeed) to buy tickets have undoubtedly had their privacy violated. Those names should have been excluded, since they've not completed any transactions with the team. I don't see what business the Patriots have with their names.
Stasis is death. Embrace change.
nice. people who buy season tickets are their bread and butter.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Do they not believe in freedom of exchange of goods? Pure capatalist economics. Supply and demand.
Oh wait, this is Soviet America wher capitalism only is good if you are a big company.
Next you will see that Microsoft demands the name andress and phonenumber from each person who has ever downloaded a Linux distribution.
Also how much of a fight have they put up? "Give us the names." "Only if we have an order" "Here it is." is something different then "Give us the names" "You can have those names if you pry them from my dead cold fingers. We rather do jailtime or die befre we give them to you."
Somehow I believe that it is more the first then the second. Otherwise we would have heard about it when the trial was going on and on and on.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I'm not 100% sure where I stand on issues like this.
A part of me gets sick when I go on eBay and find tickets for a concert or sporting event that is up for sale by a "professional" scalper. Especially annoying are when these tickets were obtained from a fan club membership, or sold out within minutes only to appear right on eBay. It makes it more expensive for a real fan to get decent seats.
Then the other part of me is a capitalist pig and says there's nothing wrong with that.
As for selling these season tickets... I don't see what the big deal is. People have done that for years, only now it's easier. They've also bought season tickets for the purpose of giving to clients (or prospects).
-David
The fact is that the scalpers legally bought the tickets, so why may they not resell them? The only issue should be if they don't declare the income for tax purposes.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Are their offices in Massachusetts? Do they have any presence in Massachusetts?
If China bans baseball, should patriots.com be required to hand over a list of Chinese IPs which visited the site?
is that insightful??
$300,000 for a 2-bedroom home, you should be so lucky...
When I was young we had to pay $650,000 for 3 walls and a tarp for a roof, and we didn't even have a pro football team...
Oh wait...that's not when I was young. That's right now. Fucking Orange County.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
Intimated? What does this mean?
", thereby possibly artificially inflating the cost of tickets."
If people are willing to pay $10,000 for a ticket, then by definition, that's the value of the ticket. That's not an artificial inflated value, that's the actual value.
It doesn't seem immoral, I don't see that it should be illegal.
If a ticket scalper scooped up every patriot ticket and was selling them for $10,000 per ticket and they sold them all, god bless them for being clever entrepreneurs. If they scooped up every ticket and couldn't sell them, well, the team got their money and the scalper got...um... scalped.
I'm mainly disturbed that courts and lawyers don't say to these large corporations "We realize you try to get people to sign crazy documents giving away their rights, but we don't accept any of them. Case dismissed".
If the patriots are angry about this, then what they ought to do is charge more for their tickets. This is a professional sporting event, not a government function where they need to maintain the fiction of fairness.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Registered fans could buy non-resellable ticket.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
(Unless, of course, your state has specific laws forbidding the breaking of this type of contract.)
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Course, I realize that makes the Pats look like the RIAA, which explains why this decision is pretty unpopular here...
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
is that they'd also revoke your season tickets if you sold them for face value. It's more about control than protecting consumers.
Its my ticket, i should be able to sell it if i want. Or just rip it to shreads.
The ball team got their money, i paid for it. Screw em.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm sure like all tickets this come with strings attached. But this issue is about two questions, can the Patriots force a company to turn over lists of sellers, what privacy issue does this have, what is included in the list, do they know how much I sold my ticket for? Is this concept of restrictions on sales fair? Can I buy a ticket and be told what to do with it (can MSFT sell me an XBox then prevent me from modding it?) In Ohio folks sell pencils with free tickets to the Michigan Ohio State game. Since your not selling the tickets this is legal. What if StubHub allowed a purchase and processing fee set by the seller I could sell the ticket at face value then pump up the purchase and processing fees I will charge to get you the ticket (like shipping on ebay)? In a broad sense issue has implications elsewhere, at what point do I own the item and have the freedom of control over it? When is it truly my XBox and when is it enough my house that the HOA can't tell me what to do? p.s. Combine this with a video tape scandal and it seems like the Patriots are trying to loose fans.
That they're not getting in on the extreme markup action themselves. I'm surprised they didn't get the addresses too and case the homes of the people on the list and film them, to use in a later ga...court case.
I hate sigs.
If this were music or software being resold, slashdot would unanimously cry foul, but for sports tickets you're all divided? What gives?
Here's a somewhat tongue in cheek suggestion then...
Charge a large amount for the ticket. Make the assumption the team is going to win every game and win the superbowl.
For every game the team loses, they refund part or all of the admission to the original owner. If they don't make the playoffs there is an amount refunded, if the team wins everything, the club keeps all the money. If the club loses all the games, they refund all the money.
In fact, maybe the NFL should mandate that approach, because it forces the teams to try to win, not to simply take in the most revenue from ticket sales.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
The tickets *are* set at market prices. There is a select group of people who are willing to pay extreme prices for a regular season football game, and if they increased the price of tickets to what they went for on StubHub (many of those tickets never sell, BTW) they probably wouldn't sell out the event. There is a fine line between "more people want tickets than we have seats", and "we only sold half the venue". That makes a market for scalping a small percentage of the overall number of tickets.
Don't think for a second that the Patriots wouldn't charge more for their tickets if they thought they could. This isn't about keeping ticket prices low. It's about making sure they make all the profit, and not somebody else.
Incidentally, they sell many of their tickets at above market rate, which does cause an uproar, and many of the seats go unfilled.... More specifically, I'm talking about pre-season games, which they price the same as regular season games, and they force upon season ticket holders. Many of those season ticket holders resell their pre-season tickets at a loss. Seats that aren't sold to season tickets holders stay empty for the game.
Seems to me the tickets are under-priced from the get-go.
There wouldn't be a problem if sports teams, concert venues, etc. just charged scalper like fees to begin with, then discounted the unsold tickets closer to the event time, if needed.
That gives all the profit to the right people, not artificial middle-men (scalpers).
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Minnesota repealed a decades-long scalping prohibition just this August with the image that it would only legalize the people hawking tickets outside the stadium who have always been there and always will be there. But it has become clear that the ticket reselling companies are the ones that benefit grabbing everything up the moment an online sale starts.
If I understand it correctly, most sports teams make a considerable portion of their money in concessions. I imagine most people going to sporting events have a budget, whether consciously or subconsciously, of how much they are willing to spend on the entire experience of going to a game. So if a fan is spending hundreds more on a ticket than face value, they would be less willing to purchase an extra beer or hot dog or sweatshirt and hat at stadium. So rather than increasing revenue by increasing face value, the club may be looking to protect concession revenues (and their contracted vendors) by stopping the fans from paying that lost money to the scalpers.
The Patriots allow their season ticket holders to resell seats to particular games officially using Ticketmaster's TeamExchange service. If you go browse Ticketmaster.com for upcoming games, like the game versus the Dolphins you will find that there is an option to buy tickets from fans. For the Dolphins game Sunday Oct 21, the Dolphins also allow season tickets to be resold through TeamExchange, and so you can also try to get the seat you want for this game from a Dolphins season ticket holder.
Of course, The Patrots or the Dolphins also get a cut of the resale (and Ticketmaster gets to collect another fee for reselling the ticket they already sold). It also helps the teams that the season ticket holders have a legit venue for reselling their seats when they can't attend a game. The TeamExchange service has boosted season ticket sales for every team that has signed onto it. This is one of those win-win-win situations (except for StubHub and their customers).
Just like I give you money,you give me the candy bar,it is mine.Even if I agree not to share it,sell it,or use it for sensual pleasure,it is still mine.Once money and merchandice has changed hands,agreements mean shit,even in writing.It is a concept as old as the oldest vocation.It is written in our DNA ,so to speak."I pay for it,it is mine".If you stand between me and mine,you will get hurt.Yet we make arbitrary rules that go against nature,this is why no one really respects these rules,they are merely an illusion.Those that enforce those rules are the new criminal and are to be dealt with as such.
I suspect all that will come of this is a mewling and wringing of hands in some courtroom and
property damage at the Patriots stadium.Selling of unwanted tickets by entrepreneurs and regretful erstwhile fans will continue forever as it is a "NATURAL" occurance and the only reason for enforcement is to fill the coffers of law enforcement,the judiciary,the state and of course the biggest criminals,the football franchise.
Know your enemies!
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
I live in Florida and the Devil Rays stadium is rarely filled unless they are playing the Yankees. The teams should auction the tickets off that way they could get the most profit and almost eliminate scalpers. If it was an unpopular game you could get tickets extreamly cheap and at least get asses in the seats to buy the $4 hot dogs. For the popular games people would have to bid for them.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Their selling pieces of paper to people on the internet.
People still pay money to watch other people play sports? I bet none of them has even heard of ae911truth.org. What happens when you allow society to distract you from what's important? Oh, nothing, don't worry about it, ignorance is bliss.
I've never bought season tickets to anything, so I don't know if they make you sign something, but they don't for one off tickets. Sure, there's an agreement printed on the back, but that's shown *after* you buy the ticket, and isn't signed anyway.
You could make the (rather flimsy) argument that they agree when they use the ticket, but these people obviously aren't doing that.
Besides, it isn't StubHub's responsibility to enforce or even cooperate with the venue's agreements with it's customers.
Why can't the NFL get it through their heads that they don't control the universe. If they're worried about people selling their tickets to other fans for more than the team/stadium was charging, RAISE PRICES.
Besides if I bought tickets to a game for $75/ticket including fees, and sold them for $100/ticket, I'd still be making less than the team/stadium made off the initial sale. Hell, let the stadium charge $3000 per ticket. They're not depriving anyone of a critical resource.
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I wonder if they're using the same spies for this that they use to cheat in football games.
Been to a Knicks game recently? Empty sold out games. Every seat belongs to some corporation or group that doesn't worry if the seat gets used. So if you're lucky enough to get a ticket to go you and 27 other people will be cheering. Add to that the $10 beers, $30 in parking, I can only hope that the NBA, the NFL and MLB eventually alienate all their fans and everyone stops going. That way GE, Merrill Lynch and Home Realtors association, as owners of all the tickets can just dictate terms like they wish they could. All the athletes will wind up working for the sponsors not the teams.
Today, if you want to go to a popular concert or sports event you cannot buy a ticket. You have to deal with a ticket broker or scalper. Period. All the tickets were gone in 10 minutes by agents of the ticket brokers and scalpers.
What this does is vastly inflate ticket prices. Because the ticket brokers can sell Super Bowl tickets for $2000 does this mean there is a market at that price? No, what it means is that by outright theft the brokers were able to snatch all the tickets up so nobody could buy them at the original price. Then they get to charge whatever they want.
This is patently unfair and most places have rules about ticket resale. There are laws in some states and municipalities governing this sort of thing. What this is all about is introducing artificial scarcity into the market so the brokers and scalpers get to make money.
This is about as fair as stealing someone's mail and selling it back to them.
However, price controls are effective and have been able to only raise the price up slightly but predictably. Even the revenues would be more agreeable for those having an actual hand in running the stadium.
On Google
The study itself
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
There is a first sale doctrine in play here, kind of. The ticket that you buy to a sporting event, music event, or other event is actually two things: a license and a piece of paper on which the license is printed. Under the first sale doctrine, you are allowed to do anything you want to the piece of paper on which the license is printed. You can burn the piece of paper, eat it, throw it away, or whatever comes to mind. However, there are a limited number of things you can do with the license that's printed on that piece of paper. You would have to read the license, but the license would probably restrict you to transferring it to another person, or possibly, restrict you from using the license improperly. In fact, the license may grant the licensor (e.g., The Patriots) to eject the licensee (e.g., you) from a licensed event (e.g., a football game) if the licensee violates one or more terms in the license agreement.
In summation, there is a first sale doctrine, but only for the piece of paper on which the license is printed. Not for the license itself.
(P.S., this dichotomy also applies to CDs and DVDs that you purchase. You can do anything you want with the medium, but not with the content stored on that medium. Neat, eh?)
Perhaps one or more of the ticket holders in question can provide tapes of other teams' defensive signals? Birds of a feather flock together, after all.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
It only takes place in both jurisdictions if both jurisdictions agree to that. Sales tax, for example, generally takes place in magical internet land, unless both buyer and seller are in the same state/country.