Slashdot Mirror
EU Wants Air Passenger Data Collected
An anonymous reader sends news of the EU following in the footsteps of the US in that they are contemplating requiring all 27 member states to collect data on airline passengers and to retain it for up to 13 years. No centralized database would be created; instead states would be encouraged to store and to share their own data as needed. All states would have to pass enabling laws before the measure could come into effect. The rules would not apply to flights entirely within the EU. The proposal is part of an anti-terrorism package that also includes tighter laws to control hate speech and bomb-making instructions.
Damnit! Now we EUers can't feel smug anymore and belittle our less free friends in the US ;-))
...at least they'll never be able to take away from us the fact we never elected George Bush.
;)
Well, at least unless there's a major change in international politics sometime soon I hope not
[Sarcasm mode on]
Heck, let's just cut to the chase and have an international law that everything and anything has to be logged and stored for all eternity. That should save a few decades of protesting against dumb legislature that will eventually get in through the back door anyway.
Presumably if storage capacity where unlimited we'd be seeing calls to log the position of every atom in the world!
[Sarcasm mode off]
I spent some time in Italy this summer. It is a very lovely country with amazing food. One thing that struck me as strange was the extremely lax security at the airport. Me and my party literally walked through without anyone checking anything at any time. They didn't even LOOK at our passports. I wanted them to stamp mine so I would have the Italy stamp, but the man just waved us on past. I did notice though that all the people the men with machine guns where searching all where Arabic looking men.
I had a stop over in Germany on my way back to the states. Every single person gets a pat-down and a metal detector wand treatment... serveral times. The passport guy in Germany in fact gave us a hard time because we didn't have the Italy stamp. We explained that they wouldn't even look at our passports and he just shook his head and made some comment about the way things are run down there.
Help! I've fallen in a karma hole and I can't get up!
New Spanish security rules likely to cause airport delays
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
OK! Let'em choke on all that data! There's no way that they could keep it all straight - and that's assuming there's no errors!
The genie is out of the bottle, let's give them what they want to the 666 power!
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
Say what you want about the U.S., but we don't outlaw 'hate speech' here. We have outlawed bomb-making instructions since 1997 (Thanks, Diane Feinstein!), but only those with that give instructions for the purposes of violating federal law. You can still read about the basic chemistry, and for that you just need to go to your local library or read any of a number of articles publicly available on the Internet.
My blog
How exactly does one define 'hate speech', and separate it from freedom of speech (one man's free speech is another's hate speech), and how exactly does one separate home chemistry sets from bomb making equipment, and mere discussions on bombs and explosives (they're not exactly secrets) from people who are actually going to use them?
I'm also not sure how collecting data on all passengers will help them with the small minority they want to track.
I seriously think the Soviets covertly won the Cold War after the end was declared every time I hear crap like this. What's next? Are we all going to celebrate the October Revolution and call each other "Comrade" while the Secret Police read our mail and make people disappear?
The game.
Can't let the US take a lead on this issue. Freedom of movement is demonstrated by the fact they won't even consider imposing it on inter-union travel.
Shit that doesn't work here.
ACK
I know it's Europe where the ideas of freedom of speech are a little different than on this side of the pond, but still every time I hear or read hate speech I shudder. Who gets to define what "hate speech" is?
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Terrorism is really begining to be an excuse for everything... What frighten me is to see that in France, the president talks about terrorism like an imminent threat against our country that nearly requiere martial law, while our last terrorism attemps go back 10 years ago and we have been livin peacefully since.
These particular terrorists are funded by oil producing nations, Iran and Saudi. They're doing it because they don't like the influence particularly the USA has within their nations. The US for instance is propping up the Saudi royal family, paying them with worthless bits of green paper and military aid. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, Osama bin Laden is Saudi. They see themselves as freedom fighters, fighting the great satan that is literally sucking their wealth dry, and, frankly, when Bernanke switches on the presses they'll be right.
To stop terrorism, stop using oil. Simple. The peak's coming RSN anyway.
Deleted
Simply, this way EU can have the same data of US and use them if and when needed...
thats a mighty slippery slope we are approaching that skirts perilously close to that line that we should not be crossing.
and so it begins.....
Hell, it's easier than that. All you need are beauty products...
Deleted
Also I don't understand the priorities. How many people were killed by terrorist actions last year in the EU? 100? 1000? And how many traffic deaths were there? How many died from obesity or diseases related to smoking?
If they are concerned about protecting lives they should track how much candy or tobacco/alcohol people buy and use. If they monitor/forbid overconsumption of that it would probably save more lives.
Yes, it would really suck to be blown up buy some nutter but the fact remains that I'm so much more likely to get killed in a car accident that the "terror threat" hardly deserves mentioning.
I just don't get it. Why are people so dumb that they fall for these tricks.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
Is there ANY evidence at all that if this stuff (privacy violations, ID checks, data collection, profiling etc) was in place in the US before 9/11 that it would have had any effect in stopping the attacks? Or would it have stopped the London Underground bombings? Or the Spanish train bombs? Or the Bali bombs? Or any of the other terrorist attacks of the past 50 years?
Measures like reinforced cockpit doors are good. As are measures to make passports harder to forge (including measures requiring that the information on the passport be stored electronically as well as physically and that said information be digitally signed against tampering such that only the governments have the private keys to digitally sign the information) And the measures designed to stop bombs from being taken onto aircraft disguised as otherwise harmless looking objects.
Unfortunatly, the world has turned into a mass of sheeple who only care about their bread (i.e. mass-produced consumer goods made by the lowest bidder and full of hidden unwanted stuff like lead paint and illicit drugs) and their circuses (i.e. mass-produced media content made by big corporations designed to keep you distracted whilst other big corporations ruin the planet in the name of the almighty Dollar/Euro/Pound/Yen/etc) and are unlikely to stand up to the crap the governments of the world want to inflict on them (especially since the few people who DO care enough to stand up to the governments end up in secret jails that make Auschwitz look like Club Med)
This is just another of the knee jerk reactions that we have seen during the last 6 years. Politicians make a show of "competence" in order to protect the safety of the people. Classic "cover your ass" reaction.
And you are right. The amount of people killed by terror in EU is minimal compared to traffic accidents, workplace accidents, domestic violence, pollution related deaths etc. But we are used to the above, but *terror* is new and unpredictable, hence it *seems* more scary.
Sadly, the governments (and mainstream media) are helping the terrorists, by fueling the fear for terror, by constantly talking about it and making senseless measures against it.
----
An annoyed European
Well I guess that's me signing up for a free email account next time I go flying - although it's a pain in that the airline might need to send me necessary information, and I forget to check that account.
Sensitive information such as racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religious or philosophical beliefs, trade union membership as well as health and sexual orientation should not be revealed.
Oh well that's something. To be honest, it scares me that anyone would even consider including that. Sexual orientation? What about those people who don't neatly fit into a category? Would I later be arrested because they found I've been snogging a guy but I only identified as straight?
And write me up as a card carrying member of the Church Of The FSM.
Security on internal flights in Papua New Guinea is light (there is none)... however, when you get OFF the airplane in the Highlands, they check to make sure you haven't brought any guns or liquor.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
You're a politician, you need to spend some money and you need an excuse?
Thanks God there are the terrorists and thanks God the USA already show the way, so you don't even need the effort to think something new.
It's nice to be an EU politician, uh?
Have you ever heard about Atos Origin ? They have been helping the EU storing all flight information semi-permanently since 2001. I am pleased that this secretive activity is put into the daylight and legalized.
T.
England Prevails.
Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
"All states would have to pass enabling laws before the measure could come into effect. "
Does anyone else find it ironic that local legislation is required to implement data gathering and storage, yet the EU can ramrod a CONSTITUTION down people's throats (this would be a constitution that a couple of countries have already rejected) without any similar requirement?
Congratulations Europe, you now have a massive overweening Federal government that sucks as hard as ours. Sorry that you didn't get the constitution down on paper FIRST, but then again, we're pretty much ignoring ours too.
-Styopa
You might want to be more careful with your rhetorical analogies, if you want people to pay attention to your writing. I was with you until your last sentence about dissidents ending up in places worse than Auschwitz, which implies to me that either you are ignorant about the Holocaust or don't care about the accuracy of your words. Or do you really believe that dissidents in the West are put into gas chambers and treated worse than Nazi death camp prisoners?
FWIW, there was a lull between the first world trade center bombing and the eventual successful one.
With the outfits like the GIA and the AZF floating around in france, you should be thankful for a greater than 10 year lull in attack on the paris metro...
If you read the propaganda from the other side of the pond, one wonders if it is because of this tightening of the law, france has been able to live "peacefully since"
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,176139,00.html
This was a really surprising move by the EU Commission. Note that the European Parliament had no business with this. They probably weren't even informed, as local politicians here in Finland have all been surprised by this -- it immediately became a frontpage issue -- and they usually keep close tabs with their MEP buddies.
Fortunately this will need the approval of every single EU country as per the procedure, and judging from first public reactions here it looks like Finland is going to oppose. I hope so. This is a privacy (leak) nightmare waiting to happen. Stop the terries and all that, but how the heck do credit card numbers, phone numbers, and email addys have help there, realistically speaking?
Get it here! How To Make A Bomb .
(My personal reaction after reading earlier comments by Mr. Frattini, who's not only the EU's anti-terrorism muppet but is also responsible for "Fundamental Rights and citizenship", hahaha.)
Here it comes... Global State, one, big global government...
Coming USA union with Mexico and Canada [see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_Prosperity_Partnership_of_North_America ]
Will it be good? I doubt so. Everything will be monitored; probably including inside of our homes.
However - it can't be stopped. It will either collapse fast (not that bad), or last for decades or even centuries (then, the collapse of global union will mean the collapse of the whole civilization).
Why it can't be stopped? Everyone agree to it. War, genocide, etc automatically create resistance. Stronger repressions, stronger resistance. Ultimately, the system falls.
But the new union is created with peace (excluding third world).
So, everyone will have to accept it. Resistance will (and is) futile.
Unless somebody know how to live on Mars...
[p.s. sorry for grammar errors - i'm aware that there are some, i'm not native...]
and so it begins.....
It begins?!
My country (the UK) isn't at the top of the slippery slope, it's falling over at the bottom. We have the legal basis right now for detention without trial, suppression of peaceful protest, arbitrary restrictions on movement (under several different laws now, actually), criminalisation based on what books you read or Internet sites you visit, arbitrary stop and search by the police, and a database state with mandatory ID cards to help enforce it all.
The only way they get away with it is because the abuses have been relatively subtle so far. A few people under house arrest, if you conveniently label them terrorist suspects, don't cause too many ruffled feathers, you see. Protests outside Parliament? Well, no-one likes them, they're just an eyesore we're better off without. A few incorrect fines because ANPR caught "your" car in a charging zone hundreds of miles from where you really were at the time? Well, some people won't even bother going to court (since it costs more than paying the incorrect fine) and the others will probably be happy just to get their money back. A few people evicted from the family homes they've lived in for decades to build a new motorway over the top? It's for the Greater Good, you see. One elderly party veteran and Holocaust survivor thrown out of a conference for a one-word heckle of a minister who took us illegally to war, and then refused readmission using anti-terrorism legislation? The law wasn't meant to be used that way. What, it was anyway? Bad policemen, no biscuit! A dead government worker here, an immigrant shot seven times in the head there, it doesn't matter, we're winning the fight to protect people's freedoms against the evil terrorists, especially the most important freedom, which is the freedom to be safe from harm, you see!
Well, I've been looking for some worthy causes to support recently. I think I'll make one of my next donations to Liberty.
(Disclaimer: No doubt many people involved in these things are doing them with the best of intentions, and yes, of course many of the people affected are nasty pieces of work. But that's not the point — at least, not if you're one of the innocent people who winds up on the wrong end of the law because of a mistake.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
This proposal seems odd for the same reasons. If you want to blow up an airplane, you find people with clean records and get them on board. Once the plane goes down, 13 years of archived records won't do you a bit of good. On the other hand, if you are trying to conduct espionage for other political or economic reasons, then this kind of data makes sense.
Have gnu, will travel.
All I could find with a first quick google is: You will need to show ID when sending items. [http://www.auspost.com.au/BCP/0,1080,CH4381%257EMO19,00.html]
If I hadn't already promised to have it sent this week, I would have just walked out. This is disgusting!
If what I did violated goodwins law then I move we include references to Bush (whom many view as badly) fall under that law as well. All I was doing is pointing out that the Euros have elected leaders as bad, if not worse, than bush during the past century so to come off all smug about how upright they are is somewhat disingenuous.. How am I to accomplish that without pointing out some of the piss poor leaders that European powers have put into power? If pointing that out violates goodwins law then I guess you might as well put your fingers in your ears and scream real loud.. I was not calling the poster, Germans, or Europeans Nazi's, I was pointing out that smugness about how great you are at picking leaders might be a tad unwarranted...