YouTube Video Warned About School Shooting

mytrip writes to tell us that CNN is reporting at least eight dead in a Finland school shooting that was apparently planned out in graphic videos posted to YouTube. "YouTube appeared to have removed 89 videos linked to his account, many of them featuring Nazi imagery, shortly after the incident. Finnish media reported someone posted a message two weeks ago on the Web site, warning of a bloodbath at the school. A video posted earlier Wednesday, by 'Sturmgeist89,' was titled 'Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007.' 'Sturmgeist89' identified himself as Auvinen, and said he chose the name 'Sturmgeist' because it means 'storm spirit' in German."

Comments

Interesting

[Biotech9]

The shooter left a few documents (including a 'manifesto', a video of him shooting his 0.22 pistol in the woods and picture of himself) open to the public;
Freaky stuff....

Re:Interesting

[Funkcikle]

On the plus side, he uses PNG format for his images.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up?

People always telegraph their intentions beforehand, but seeing it is almost always reserved for after the fact. Most attempts to predict this sort of behaviour run aground on the fact that it doesn't sound all that different from regular messed up behaviour. Of course a lot of people would like to stomp that out, but a lot of antisocial people still don't go to the point of mass murder...or even solo murder, or self-murder.

I look at things like this, and my first response is never: "Oh gosh, we should have seen it coming!" For every real nutjob, there are a hundred others who are just being young, alienated, and angry. Every quasi-normal action is held up as a "warning sign" and every admittedly abnormal action is magnified, and then used to villify people who "should have seen it coming."

I don't know. Just my experience that, every time something like this happens, it's used as an excuse to harass people who don't fit the "normal" mold, whatever the hell that is, and when, in reality, 99% of the people you're harassing have done nothing wrong, and will do nothing wrong.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

Oh sure, that wasn't meant to be a real number, just a piece of hyperbole. Truth of it is, school shootings are absurdly rare...They seem a lot less rare because the media makes so much of them.

For the number of people who dream of getting a gun and mowing down their high school (myself included on several occasions, and I was in college when Columbine happened), the number of people who actually do it is as low as can be.

I certainly think parents are the first line of defense. Teacher's can't be expected to "sense" when a kid is about to snap and start killing people, but a parent should notice that sort of nihilism, and at least get them to therapy, where a professional would have a chance of doing a real evaluation. Not to say that I'm a big fan of psychotherapy, but still.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

They would have caught him sooner if only he would have used copyrighted music in his video posts

Re:Interesting

[cromar]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Dante wasn't a crazed devil because he imagined and wrote The Divine Comedy. Nor was Shakespeare because he wrote King Lear and Macbeth. Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it.

Re:Interesting

[Kjella]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up? And the even more practical YRO question: Even if you're 110% convinced he's scary messed up, what can you do before he goes ballistic? To get into therapy he either has to want it, be stark raving mad or show very clear violent tendencies. Most of these loners don't want help from the world they hate, they're not bubbling mad since they're rational enough to plan and execute and most of them just keep it all bottled up until it goes boom. In short, there's rarely something to formally latch onto in order to force them to get help.

Re:Interesting

[KKlaus]

Whether violent fantasies are cathartic has nothing to do with whether they are risk factors or not (which they are).

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Here's why- because violent fantasies aren't therapeutic and cathartic.

There is a difference between things that feel good and things that are good for you. Catharsis feels good. Freud told us that catharsis was good for us. Freud also was full of shit.

Here's the deal. Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. There are many ways to deal with this:

1. Accept the limitations of the situation. Find other ways to get what you want.
2. Use the anger to get energy to overcome the challenges in ways that respect others.
3. Use the anger to get energy to overcome your sense of empathy and ignore the rights of others.
4. Ignore your desire to do something about the challenges. Get depressed.

Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it. You don't realize that they increase anger when you do it, because anger without a solution feels bad, and dominance and/or validation from others feels good. The good feeling you get after violent fantasies or from venting is not the antithesis of the original anger you felt, though- it's a reward for your anger. This can be good, if you were doing strategy 4 and, because of your increased anger, are ready to go to strategies 1 or 2. But if that's not the transition in strategies that's going to take place, then there's no benefit.

Side note: where did people get the idea that "therapeutic" meant "feels nice"? Improving one's health (mental or physical) very often involves sacrifice and changing habitual ways of thinking and acting. Things that feel nice like "therapeutic" shampoo or "therapeutic" massages or "therapeutic" whatever do nothing by themselves to promote growth or change.

Re:Interesting

[Litty_Bell]

Well speaking from personal experience with people who think along the lines of "she wrote about rape and murder she's a crazy psycho killer" I have to agree with you. I write about some really I'd up stuff, I'm not gonna lie and say otherwise. Last year a teacher in my school decided it would be alright to just go through my personal notebook, he read all of my poems and short stories and almost every single one is dark and violent. He brought it to the principal who immediately decided I should be sent away to the nuthouse because I was going to kill everyone. One important thing to know, I have a two year old daughter named Violet, she's the product of rape. I write to deal with what happened to me. I was forced into therapy and they even pushed for expulsion, saying that I was a danger to myself and the school. Which is bull. Instead of waiting for them to decide if I should be allowed in school or not I left voluntarily and go to a new school now. I personally think the people telling those who do write violent or dark things that their crazy are in fact much more crazy then any writer could ever be. Okay, I'm done now...

Re:Interesting

[mqduck]

Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it. FYI, you probably meant "non-psychopath". Well, maybe not. Perhaps "psycho" is a good compromise.

Re:Interesting

[gardyloo]

Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. Or you will study science.

Re:Interesting

[darthflo]

"Venting" does not reduce anger.

And that's where you're really, really wrong (alternatively I could've just mistunderstood what you meant by "Venting", but if you're referring to working off your anger about topic A with completely unrelated topic B, it works). Example: This monday my (hate to type those two letters, but I guess they're true now) ex-girlfriend (cue "Welcome Back to /." jokes) dumped me. For the next hours you may or may not be able to imagine how fucking angry I was (hint: "very, very, very"). I rented a bike, rode some 60 kilometers, two hours later I still felt bad as hell but a lot better than before. I was even able to write comprehensible sentences once again. "Venting", of course, didn't solve the problem, but it certainly helped me see things more clear, focus on the actual problem and realize how wrong my initial anger reaction was. Most other forms of "Venting" will, imo and most of the time, produce similar results. If pulling the trigger of a gun while it's pointing at a target in a shooting range, killing loads of virtual zombies or beating up boxing bags help you shut off the world and think clearer: Go for it. Just don't affect people adversely.

It's the media

[Reader X]

I blame video games.

Well, someone had to say it.

/bracing for media hysteria to follow

Re:It's the media

[Max Romantschuk]

While it's reasonable to assume that some people will react with "We should ban X" -reactions, judging from the recent local news (I live in Finland) I think this time around there will be more talk about how no one noticed what was happening inside the shooters head and less about what to blame.

Interestingly, the news interviewed a friend of his who apparently hadn't noticed anything much more than the kid keeping to himself. It seems to have come as a surprise to everyone.

The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming.

Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter. When I last saw the news at 22:00 local time he was alive but in a critical state after having shot himself in the head. If he does survive the aftermath will hopefully have less guessing to be done.

There's a Wikipedia article about the Jokela school shooting as well, with some bits and pieces of information.

Re:It's the media

[SatanicPuppy]

People always do those types of recriminations afterward; "Oh why did we not heed all these warning signs which are now obvious."

The truth of it is, those warning signs are almost never obvious beforehand, because if they were, someone would have locked the guy up. A lot of the behaviour which is "obvious evidence of psychosis" could have a lot of interpretations if the person never kills anyone.

I hope people are more sane in Finland than over here in the states, because something like that happening here would provoke nothing but unproductive attempts to restrict freedoms, hours and hours of meaningless television commentary, and a host of lawsuits.

Re:It's the media

[CeramicNuts]

The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming. Don't they all? These killers know they will get frontpage media coverage. Everyone will learn their grievances. They'll get magazine covers. Everyone will know their names.

This guys website directory linked above looks almost like a press-kit!

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

what i find interesting is that in his mind he was doing the "right thing".

as in, he talks about himself as natural selection incarnate and similar.

basically he convinced himself that he had a right, and even a duty do to what he did...

do anyone see a parallel to terrorists in general, or even the speeches of world leaders before they go to war/intervention?

makes me wonder what humans are able to do if they convince themselves that its the correct thing to do.

hell, you could probably replace "natural selection" above with "divine right" and get just the same effect.

in a way it scares me silly to think about it. thats true mind over matter, right there...

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

so maybe one should take everyone that shows signs in for a psychological evaluation?

one goes to the doctor if one get a runny nose or similar, but going to a psychologist when the world caves in on one is a lot tougher...

hell, one could maybe say that every teen should have a round of evaluation. they get medical checkups for physical issues do they not?

Don't ban YouTube

[dedazo]

No, destroy it. Take off, nuke the whole thing from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

The children. Think of the children, for god's sake.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Hatta]

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[torkus]

"I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?"

Because it gets into thighs somehow and is capable of totally ruining the view at the beach.

Real reason for his name...

[mweather]

Sturmgeist is a Norwegian metal band.

How freedom is lost

[riceboy50]

How else could career politicians stay in power other than to appease the masses with knee-jerk measures that strip a small piece of freedom away? Who needs the long-term big picture when there are kids dying today?

Re:How freedom is lost

[sqrt(2)]

When the PATRIOT act was passed I said if an attack of this magnitude (9/11) every 50 years is the price of liberty it's still worth it.

And that may sounds selfish if you know someone who died on 9/11 but I have to live in the US too, so I have just as much chance of dying as anyone. People die from guns; worth it for the freedom to own guns. People die from drugs; worth it to have the freedom to control your own body. People die from terrorist attacks; worth it to have freedom and privacy. The only way you can win against terrorism is by not fighting it and LIVING FREE. Don't take stupid risks, but by far the bigger danger is from over correcting and NOT from doing too little. This is not something people like to hear, and so we get stories like this one and the politicians take away our guns, our drugs, our privacy and we say it's worth it to protect ourselves. I fear that the sun will rise on a day when a generation of Americans wakes up and finds that they no longer have any freedoms left to give.

Re:Obviously

[n dot l]

No. The correct solution is to arrest anybody who posts videos on YouTube. Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.

Finland and the Nazis

[Dynamoo]

I'll start off by saying that I work with quite a lot of Finns and they're a great bunch of people who I have a great respect for.

However, Finland has a unique relationship with Nazism that Americans and other Europeans don't really know much about. The history of Finland during the Second World War is quite different from any other country. To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland, because historically Finland's greatest struggle has always been with Russia.. and to that extent, Germany was a natural ally during WW2.

The dichotomy is that the Finns are a democratic and fair-minded people, and the Nazis were exactly the opposite. But as the famous saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - and this is precisely what happened during the war.

I'm not saying that Finns are fascists, and I'm not even saying that *many* Finns are fascists, but what I am saying is that perhaps Finland is the *only* state that at least partly owes its ongoing independence to co-operation with the Nazis. That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[tietokone-olmi]

Please note that Finland also had to fight the Germans after Finland made separate peace with the USSR at the end of the Continuation War. This one was known as the Lapland War, and it was mostly fought by teenagers since the treaty with the USSR somehow managed to disqualify anyone experienced from being in the army for real.

Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers, just like an overt Stalinist would be (though perhaps a bit less than the same Stalinist in today's Russia).

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard]

There is nothing secret about it -- it's basic Finnish history, and of course still a bit of a bone of contention among historians and even regular people whether joining Nazi Germany in Barbarossa was such a bright move. Personally I think there was not much choice -- had we just sat there on our hands, the possibility is high that Stalin would have attacked again after Winter War anyway, so some sort of pre-emption was logical when Germany was going strong. I probably would have made the same choice at that time of history. Finland has also always had a strong bond to Germany -- especially militarily -- that goes all the way back to our Civil War when the whites got training from Germany to suppress the communist rebellion. Essentially the officers of our WW2 were probably German-trained for a significant part.

This was a marriage of convenience, and it must be pointed out that for example Finland never joined Germany in their ethnic cleansing plans. We actually had a Jewish synagogue out there at the front -- fighting against the Soviets! Marshall Mannerheim, the country's lead figure at the time and a cosmopolitan gentleman and officer from the Czar's army originally, was personally disgusted by Hitler, whom he considered to be a barbarian. Yes, we have German ties and being made to march to Siberia by Stalin was the worse option. I would strongly disagree with your idea that we might have had much Fascist sympathies during the time -- our extreme right wing was suppressed during the 20s and 30s right after the extreme left wing was suppressed after Civil War. We remained remarkably centrist and democratic throughout the whole ordeal.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[vertinox]

(I Love Pia Kaamos)

Small world. Personally I sold Pia my old car for $200 bucks a few years ago and dated a friend of a friend of hers.
She moved out to California last I heard, doing modeling.

But more to on topic, Finland stayed independent by making a deal with the Soviets to kick the Germans out after being able to hold the Soviets off for a while during 1944. So, allies turned enemies and Stalin didn't really seem that interested in infiltrating Finland after the war.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[mangu]

To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland

You are wrong. I have a good knowledge of this, because my granduncle was the prime minister of Finland during WWII and I heard this story from my parents who saw it firsthand. Finland was at war with Russia, when the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allies.

At that time, Churchill himself praised Finland as the savior of the world: "Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril - Finland shows what free men can do. The service rendered by Finland to mankind is magnificent. They have exposed, for all the world to see, the military incapacity of the Red Army and of the Red Air Force. Many illusions about Soviet Russia have been dispelled in these few fierce weeks of fighting in the Arctic Circle. Everyone can see how Communism rots the soul of a nation; how it makes it abject and hungry in peace, and proves it base and abominable in war. We cannot tell what the fate of Finland may be, but no more mournful spectacle could be presented to what is left to civilized mankind than that this splendid Northern race should be at last worn down and reduced to servitude worse than death by the dull brutish force of overwhelming numbers. If the light of freedom which still burns so brightly in the frozen North should be finally quenched, it might well herald a return to the Dark Ages, when every vestige of human progress during two thousand years would be engulfed."

Unfortunately for Finland, a popular but rather imbecile president declared war against Russia after Hitler started Operation Barbarossa.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard]

You'd have more credibility if you were not posting as AC, but I'll respond anyway... Finland's existence was threatened both ways, and Stalin was particularly determined to make Finland pay for resistance during the Winter War. With the Germans you might have become some kind of a vassal state with the rest of Europe, but it wouldn't have ended up with people shipped to Siberia... I don't understand why you fail to see the choice that had to be made.

Mannerheim had to deal with Hitler because we needed the weapons. Doesn't mean you have to like the chap personally to do diplomacy.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Kassiopeia]

I find it unlikely that Kyösti Kallio declared war on Russia after Barbarossa began, since Kallio left office in 1940 and Barbarossa began in June 1941. However, my credentials aren't quite as good: my granduncle Akseli Anttila was merely a General of the Red Army who had left to Russia during the Civil War. He was also the Defence Minister of Kuusinen's puppet government.

Churchill certainly sang Finland's praises during the Winter War, but the planned military aid operation via Norway never materialized, only some volunteers from Sweden and a few Allied countries, primarily the UK. This goodwill disappeared after a Finland lead by President Risto Ryti accepted German trade and soldiers into the country during the so-called interwar period, which culminated in German airplanes using Finland as a landing area in the early phases of Barbarossa in late June 1941. By this time, Northern Finland was housing German soldiers, who had the frontlines in the Petsamo/Murmansk direction during Barbarossa. This obvious pact lead to the Soviet Union doing the logical thing and bombing Finnish cities and installations, which lead to declarations of war.

But you can certainly say Finland was screwed both ways several times, what with first having to deal with the Soviet Union enabled by German consent, then the Soviet Union while working with the Germans, and then finally having to deal with the stragglers of the German forces after signing a peace deal with the Soviets - a deal that was struck in the nick of time, when the Finnish forces presented just enough resistance so that the Soviets couldn't bother and preferred to focus on Central Europe instead of Finland.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[mqduck]

Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers Know what's even more fucked up? Neo-Nazis in Russia - and there are more than a few. I suppose this can be explained by the way Nazism was portrayed as the direct opposite of socialism, and the hatred of socialism among many there. But know what's even MORE fucked up? "National Bolshevism", a mixture of Nazism and (ostensibly) Bolshevism. Their symbol is the Nazi flag with the black swastika in the center replaced by a black sickle-and-hammer.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[pekkak]

Oh what a load of... I'm in a bit of a bad mood because of the news here, but really, where's the secret? That Finland and Germany were allies is no secret, it's documented history. When you go to war, you pick any allies you can get. That goes for any country, any time. Other Europians don't know about Finland fighting alongside the Axis powers? Really? Since when was that? I never knew any Europians who didn't know this and I've known plenty. More importantly, what has it got to do with the news discussed here?

That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.

Even Israel has neonazis these days (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6985808.stm) which sounds about as stupid as anything to me. It just goes to show that some people are always attracted to stupid, evil ideas and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with history. Explaining a tradegy like this (a young kid going ballistic, ending and/or destroying countless lives including his own) with stuff that happened 60+ years ago is just about as smart as explaining it all with computer games.

Re:Crazy Idea

[BewireNomali]

M.A.D. It worked for your superpowers. Now let's make it work for you.

Re:Obviously

[PachmanP]

Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.
No, they shouldn't be arrested but simply shot on sight.

Officer: "Are you H4wTKat666?"
H4wTKat666: "lolz yaeh y?"
Officer: "Did you post this?"
*lolz OMG u r a fag. tHeys is FAKE!11!oneone*
H4wTKat666; "lolz yaeh"
*Officer shoots H4wTKat666*


I guess in afterthought, this could be in bad taste. Oh well.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Cornflake917]

That's not a crazy idea, that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard.

Yes, lets give children guns, look at how well thats working out for them in African countries in civil war.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[MightyMartian]

Then don't open the fucking topic, you half-wit toadhead.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Sponge Bath]

How is this nerd news?

He posted to YouTube! (That's on the intarweb)
He is an alienated youth! (like many /. readers)
Linus Torvalds is also Finnish! (though they probably did not know each other)

Geek - O - Rama

Re:Crazy Idea

[ShiningSomething]

If you had RTFA, you would have seen that hunting is popular in Finland, and out of five million total population there are two million guns in circulation. Legal guns, that is. They are educated. Also, this was nothing like an AK-47. You could be being sarcastic, but unfortunately I doubt it. So get your facts straight.

Re:Obviously

[MightyMartian]

Oh come on, we don't think the weak-minded masses should be killed, we just think they should use OpenOffice.org!

Re:Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

[MightyMartian]

I've seen enough anti-Semitic monsters on Usenet that I don't take anything for granted. These people do exist, and do use the Internet to get their lies and venom out there. Matt Giwer is probably one of the most infamous, and one that I've crossed paths with a few times.

Text from his YouTube profile (before it was suspe

[Anonymous Coward]

Subscribers: 120
Channel Views: 72,410
aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 - 10/19/2007).

YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now :) My new account name is German and means "Stormspirit" in English.

http://rapidshare.com/files/68 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18
Male from Finland.

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.
Country: Finland
Occupation: Unemployed Philosopher, Outcast
Companies: Human Race (evolved one step above though)
Interests and Hobbies: Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Films and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove,

Of course it is.

[SatanicPuppy]

God the PATRIOT act is a fricking nightmare. Has it made anyone safer?

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again. As a country, we've learned our lesson about "just sit tight and wait" when it comes to plane hijacking. Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

It was a surprise. People bought it. That day has passed. But in response we have done unto ourselves far worse things than they could have ever hoped to have accomplished. Massively stupid.

And we will have other successful attacks on our soil. It's inevitable that, over time, everyone will miss someone. The occasional deranged teen will go on a shooting rampage. The occasional terrorist will pull off a successful attack.

But the fact that there is a possible danger is not a reason to upend your entire society. Analyze, find your mistakes, and correct them...Don't throw out a system that failed once, and try to replace it whole cloth with something new, designed by committee! Ridiculous.

The sad part...

[Kazrath]

is how desensitized people are to this type of violence. One of my co-workers is friends with an individual that attends that school. He made a joke "Well at least I get to take the rest of the week off and do some drinking!".

Re:The sad part...

[jjohnson]

I wouldn't be too sad about this--I don't think it indicates a blasé attitude. People have long made jokes like that at dark times, as part of coping, or just from a sense that life goes on. Salon has a great article on the venal, silly, and generally unworthy things that many thought on 9/11: Forbidden Thoughts on 9/11.

Re:The sad part...

[MirrorField]

Humor, íncluding black and tasteless humor, are an important coping mechanism. Not necessarily a sign of desensitization.

Oh, how fucking original...

[meringuoid]

... He's a school shooter-upper. Love that movies list. Oh, and that music list. And fuck, he even likes Nietzsche.

Word of advice, you fuckwit: the Will to Power does not involve random murder. Nor does killing a bunch of people including yourself count as a good move, evolutionarily speaking.

Shit. If I didn't know he'd actually done it, I'd think this was a joke. You couldn't get a more perfect stereotype of the school shooter. This is just made for the media - I almost wonder if he wrote this on purpose, to give them something to chew on afterwards...

Re:Obviously

[Hatta]

That doesn't necessarily mean someone implicitly questions the existence of the 'holocaust'. Maybe they just think it's silly that there's a special word for genocide against jews. I know I do. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

For those who aren't following the story:

[Wilson_6500]

The gunman has apparently died of his wounds. At least that's the last needless death we can expect to come from this particular saga.

it's not that complicated

[circletimessquare]

you can play with rocket launchers in your back yard, pledge eternal devotion to hitler, and ramble on and on about the craziest shit

none of theat matters

but when you threaten a school, no matter how obliquely, you should be arrested

this guy did that. the rest doesn't matter

Re:it's not that complicated

[Lurker2288]

Fine, but what constitutes a threat? There was a story on the news the other day where I live about some 2nd grader being suspended for pointing a 'gun finger' at another student and yelling "bang, you're dead." Is that a threat? What if a teenager says he'd like to kill a teacher who just gave him a detention? Or the class loser commiserating with a friend and saying he wishes he could 'blow the whole school up.'

Are any of these threats? None of them? If we arrest the people making them, are we removing a valid threat to society, or are we just giving them a REAL reason to be pissed off at the world? And do you really want to totally discount the circumstances (I'd be a lot more worried about the rocket launcher wielding neo-Nazi than about some kid who sits at home on the weekend and watches 'Heathers.')? How many non-threats are you willing to lock up for some nebulous, hypothetical increase in safety?

Simple rules like 'if you do X, then you should always get Y' don't really satisfy us in the real world. The consequence of a more nuanced approach, unavoidably, is that sometimes bad things happen despite out efforts.

Re:Obviously

[Gideon Fubar]

no, buddy.. you're modded troll because you were inciting them.. perhaps flamebait would be more appropriate, but you got modded down because of your own statements.

I dig why you'd be upset, but it ain't good karma.

Re:Obviously

[MrCopilot]

. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the fuck they want and we should respect the name they choose.

In terms of your comparisons. I think there are special circumstances that differentiate the Jew's genocide and treatment by the nazi's. They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on. They can use both titles due to the extent of their suffering. For your Info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

He was bullied at school

[gay358]

According to some news, the shooted had long history of being bullying victim at school.

Videos

[Dan East]

Here are two of the videos.

In this one he is target practicing on an apple:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90d_1194444897

This video is a bunch of stills; a picture of his school, and various pictures of him with his gun:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=369_1194449557

Dan East

Save the World

[iridium_ionizer]

Save a Mentally Ill Person, Save the World.

There was recently a public service announcement on TV that went somewhere along the lines of: Yeah, your friend may flake out on you, or act withdrawn sometimes, but what someone suffering from a mental illness needs most is a friend.

I know that it is human nature for people to make friends with people who fit in similar niches as themselves. And maybe in an idealized view of smaller communities of yesteryear, someone suffering from a mental illness would be more accepted, if only out of necessity (or maybe not). But it is not hard to imagine how in modern society, with so much emphasis on a mobile society and independence, that a person with only a mild case of mental illness could find themselves suddenly isolated and without a support group of family and friends. This could make an illness that was once barely noticeable to become dishabilitating.

Yes, people are free to choose to improve there circumstances or seek assistance, but if there is anything which Nazism and Stalinism taught us it is that even normal people can act in horrible ways given the (im)proper environment. And before this analogy is lost on you, remember that people with mental illnesses generally have either genetically-determined imbalances in their brain chemistries, or else traumatic past experiences. Most people don't wake up one day and decide to become mentally ill.

So instead of making jokes about people that we know as being "the next mass murderer/serial killer/etc" and effectively shunning said person, we should try to include them into our social circle. Otherwise we are just complaining about the symptoms without bothering with the inoculation. It's our society, if everyone did something small we could avert at least some of these tragedies.

May be, not are

[Chuck Chunder]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic.

I'm willing to believe that they may be therapeutic in some cases where people have their fantasy and move on. However there are also people who dwell on them and that is certainly not therapeutic or cathartic.

It's the same thing but from my experiences with depression the human brain can certainly get stuck in an unhealthy loop and focus repeatedly on things until they become all-consuming.

It's silly to say that all fantasy is bad, but it's equally silly to say all of it is good or harmless.

Re:Obviously

[insomnyuk]

Typically, Jews refer to the Holocaust as Shoah, or calamity.

Re:of course there's a gray area

[Lurker2288]

Okay, so now your position has changed from 'any threat merits arrest' to 'specific, actionable threats warrant arrest'.

I don't know, how many videos are there up on youtube with kids brandishing guns and talking about shooting shit up? How many of them would really do it? And how many are you willing to lock up to prevent the rare nutjob?

Or hell, let's take this case. Say somebody had seen his videos, and connected it with him, and contacted the authorities. They'd probably take his gun away and make him see a counselor or something, but without having actually done anything, they probably can't lock him up (not familiar with the laws in Finland). So two months later he's out, and he finds another way to get a gun. Or he builds a bomb. Or whatever.

I don't disagree with you that situations like this present a clear opportunity to intervene, but it's tough to sort out the real threats from the posers, and arrest isn't the optimal solution in any case.

Re:Obviously

[jwisser]

I agree with your initial point- survivors of a genocide should indeed get to call it what they want. But to imply that the genocide of the American Indians (or of ANY people) was any less horrific is ridiculous. Less organized, sure; no one person said, "Hey, we should eliminate this group of people based on race." An entire people just decided that they shouldn't get to keep their lives, their land, or their dignity. It might interest you to read about, for example, the Trail of Tears.

Genocide is genocide. It's evil no matter where, why, or how it happens.

The holocaust refers to an event in history

[Anonymous Coward]

The holocaust refers to the mass exterminations of Jews AND homosexuals AND gypsies AND whoever else was included in the purging of human life. It is an event that is named the holocaust. It's not a special "Jew massacre". The only thing that smacks of racism is you believing that it is somehow exclusive to Jews and disliking it for that.

Re:The holocaust refers to an event in history

[dsoltesz]

the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this "the final solution to the Jewish question." The word Holocaust is derived from the Greek holokauston, a translation of the Hebrew word 'olah, meaning a burnt sacrifice offered whole to God. This word was chosen because in the ultimate manifestation of the Nazi killing program--the extermination camps--the bodies of the victims were consumed whole in crematoria and open fires.

Note the Britannica definition does not limit the definition of Holocaust only to the genocide of Jews. Wikipedia's source for the definition including only Jews in the definition is a highly biased one and suggests that is the definition among Jews, not among the general populace. Also note the Wikipedia article cites broader definitions:

Although the word "holocaust" has been widely used since the 17th century to refer to the violent death of a large number of people

and

The word "Holocaust" is also used in a wider sense to describe other actions of the Nazi regime. These include around half a million Roma and Sinti, the deaths of several million Soviet prisoners of war, along with slave laborers, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, and political opponents.

Even the Wikipedia article suggests limiting the term to only refer to the killing of Jews during WWII is highly biased, and personally I'm finding the Wikipedia article to be heinously lacking in objectivity.

The use of the word in this wider sense is objected to by many Jewish organizations, particularly those established to commemorate the Jewish Holocaust. Jewish organizations say that the word in its application to the Nazi genocide was originally coined to describe the extermination of the Jews, and that the Jewish Holocaust was a crime on such a scale, and of such specificity, as the culmination of the long history of European antisemitism, that it should not be subsumed into a general category with other crimes of the Nazis.

I should hope we'd all be outraged and horrified at every single death at the hands of the Nazis, not just those of Jews. The notion that the tragedy of any group is somehow diluted by the remembrance of the same tragedy inflicted upon other groups, suggesting that the killing of gypsies or homosexuals was somehow a "lesser" crime, is absurd and offensive.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[kisielk]

I love how comments with the phrase "half-wit toadhead" can get modded insightful here. Reminds me why I keep reading :)

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[znode]

I was able to grab his manifesto files from his zip pack before all the sites took them off. Here follows his rant.

ATTACK INFORMATION

Event: Jokela High School Massacre.
Targets: Jokelan Lukio (High School Of Jokela), students and faculty, society, humanity, human race.
Date: 11/7/2007.
Attack Type: Mass murder, political terrorism (altough I choosed the school as target, my motives for the attack are political and much much deeper and therefore I don't want this to be called only as "school shooting").
Location: Jokela, Tuusula, Finland.
Perpetrator's name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist). I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.
Weapons: Semi-automatic .22 Sig Sauer Mosquito pistol.

What do I hate / What I don't like?
Equality, tolerance, human rights, political correctness, hypocrisy, ignorance, enslaving religions and ideologies, antidepressants, TV soap operas & drama shows, rap -music, mass media, censorship, political populists, religious fanatics, moral majority, totalitarianism, consumerism, democracy, pacifism, state mafia, alcholohics, TV commercials, human race.
What do I love / what do I like?
Existentialism, self-awareness, freedom, justice, truth, moral & political philosophy, personal & social psychology, evolution science, political incorrectness, guns, shooting, BDSM, computers, internet, aggressive electronic and industrial rock & metal music, violent movies, , FPS -computer games, sarcasm, irony, black humour, macabre artm mass & serial killer cases, natural disasters, eugenics

Natural Selector's Manifesto

How Did Natural Selection Turn Into Idiocratic Selection?

Today the process of natural selection is totally misguided. It has reversed. Human race has been devolving very long time for now. Retarded and stupid , weak-minded people are reproducing more and faster than the intelligent, strong-minded people. Laws protect the retarded majority which selects the leaders of society. Modern human race has not only betrayed its ancestors, but the future generations too. Homo Sapiens, HAH! It is more like a Homo Idioticus to me! When I look at people I see every day in society, school and everywhere... I can't say I belong to same race as the lousy, miserable, arrogant, selfish human race! No! I have evolved one step above!

Naturality has been discriminated through religions, ideologies, laws and other mass delusion systems. Individual, who is going through his/hers natural power process and trying to live naturally, but is being told that the way he acts or thinks is wrong and stupid, will usually have some reactions which might be considered as "psychological disorders" by the establishment. In reality they are just natural reactions to the disruption of natural power process. They will have some of the following (depending on individual's personality): feelings of inferiority / superiority, hostility, aggression, frustration, depression, self-hatred / hatred towards other people, suicidal / homicidal thought etc... and it is completely normal.

Humans are just a species among other animals and world does not exist only for humans. Death and killing is not a tragedy, it happens in nature all the time between all species. Not all human lives are important or worth saving. Only superior (intelligent, self-aware, strong-minded) individuals should survive while inferior (stupid, retarded, weak-minded masses) should perish.

There is also another solution to the problem: stupid people as slaves and intelligent people as free. What I mean is that they who have free minds, are capable of intelligent existential and philosophical thinking and know what justice is, should be free and rulers... and the robotic masses, they can be slaves since they do not mind it now either and because their minds are on so retarded level. The gangsters that now rule societies, would of course get what they deserve.

Of

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD]

They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on. Look, you probably do need to open your mind just a tad. The Native American got at least as bad a deal from the US as the Jews got from Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears (forced relocation, numerous examples here as well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre (machine guns turned on women and children)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/281/22/2127.pdf (smallpox used as a biological weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties (hundreds of broken treaties)

I'm already bored with this, but I could certainly keep going.

I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.

Lots of people get the shaft on a regular basis. Yes, European Jews of the 40's are in that crowd. No, we probably shouldn't infringe on someone's right to question whether or not it happened (or at least happened exactly as it was reported.)

If I have to permit people to claim that there is no God, you also get to permit people to claim things you believe to be false.

Right?

The Geek as "Rambo"

[westlake]

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again...Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

This is real world and not the video game, more likely you will doing something involuntary...and messy.

It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point.

Waterboarding

[westlake]

Water boarding to get the info about the potential attempt to hijack a plane will be much more successful.

Torture extracts what you want to hear and not want you need to know. The terrorist who risks capture has probably memorized enough false leads and plausible scenarios to keep his interrogators occupied for months. He will have been trained to sacrifice his pawns to protect his queen. He may not even know how much of the truth he holds himself.

Re:Nazi UK and the Stalinists

[dgr73]

Now, correct me if i'm wrong, but pre-WW2, the biggest threat to world peace war not Hitler and nazism, it was Stalin and communism. The Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty of '39 produced an alliance of unprecedented power and it's secret clauses divided europe into zones of interest.

Before even this happened, UK and the rest of the western world had bowed to nazi demands more than once, notably on the case of Czechoslovakia who was their ally (see Munich Betrayal), an independent nation that was given to Germany piecemeal to provide the people of Britain and France with peace.

Now, does this make UK and France Nazi countries? An independent observer might think so somehow. Not that the betrayal of allies ends there. Though war was declared against Germany over the invasion of Poland, no overt action was really taken. And when the Soviet Union invaded, there was no declaration of war or hostilities. In fact, prominent British nazis were interned, but not prominent communists. Does this make UK a Stalinist country?

After Finland gets attacked by Soviet Union in winter of '39, it is bombarded, by "bread baskets" from the USSR and by sympathetic rhetoric and promises of aid from the western powers. A plan is even hatched by the British and French to "help Finland" by landing in northern Norway and seizing the ore deposits in northern Sweden, virtually guaranteeing a German response (and turning Scandinavia into a proxy battlefield).

You can argue that all these moves were necessary to protect UK from another world war. But if actions of questionable morality can be justified by the good of the country, they make sense.

Now for the case of Finland and the Nazis:

One of the major contributors of tangible (not rhetorical) aid to Finland is actually Fascist Italy. With western aid being limited to obsolete equipment bought at hard currency and delivered too late and with no spare parts. Germany, while officially neutral, permits aid to Finland to pass through it's territory, something many other countries don't allow.

Surrounded by two "evil", allied, regimes, one leading a historical foe (which in '41 was already demanding more concessions on top of those gained in the Winter War) and one leading a historical ally, is it a wonder if a German proposition of offering military equipment in return of rights-of-passage to Norway and use of some military bases was accepted?

In short, it is not just a case of being between a rock and a hard place. It's also seeing how the game of realpolitik is played, with little or no regard for morality to safeguard one's own interests. Each of the belligerents of WW2 were allied to an evil dictatorship at some point in the war, some even to both of them at different points in time. The fact that post-war propaganda makes Soviet Union a "victim" and a "lesser evil" is just winner's history. You can actually get a fairly unbiased view of the war in Europe from the book "Europe at War" by Norman Davies. However if you like your history black and white, do not read the book, it will only serve to ruin your view of the world.

Re:Obviously

[Flambergius]

I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.

I don't agree with this. I see at least two issues why the Holocaust's recentness does make it more terrible or relevant than many other genocides.

1) The Holocaust was industrialized genocide. It required the tools of an industrial society and economy to run and manage. To participate in the Holocaust you didn't really make a choice to kill the Jews, you did just your job, be it record keeping, train maintenance or gas chamber construction and you kept your mouth shut. This industrial disposal of unwanted humans is different sort of inhumanity than practiced by, say, tribal conquerors. Native Americans and Armenians, were either killed rather traditionally or ill-treated in ways that led to massive amounts of death from hunger and exposure, which, while purposeful, is still a long step from the systematic and designed activity of the Holocaust.

2) The Holocaust happened in highly developed Western nation. Much of our public activity, the energy of our societies, is spend on further progress towards ideals and policies that were supposed to be strongly present in the Germany of the 30s. Any serious look at the Holocaust must make us realize that just claiming to have ideals or to be civilized society does not make horrific things impossible. We must still be skeptical about claims of virtue and we still must take responsibility for our own actions. This lesson can not as forcefully be drawn from earlies atrocities, nor from later events in non-democratic countries.

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD]

Well, you may want to compare the actual practice with the spoken policy. The US's position on Native Americans essentially mirrored that of the Nazi's towards the Jews:

They are less than human, and we will take what they have through any means necessary.

I realize that they SAID different things while they were doing it, but personally I would actually put this in the 'Pro' column for the Nazis. If you were Jewish you KNEW that the Nazis couldn't be trusted, and as a feature of this many, many people got out before it was too late. The Native American was shamelessly duped over and over again by a government that claimed to be a friend, claimed to treat them as equals, etc. This is far more dispicable in my humble opinion...