YouTube Video Warned About School Shooting

mytrip writes to tell us that CNN is reporting at least eight dead in a Finland school shooting that was apparently planned out in graphic videos posted to YouTube. "YouTube appeared to have removed 89 videos linked to his account, many of them featuring Nazi imagery, shortly after the incident. Finnish media reported someone posted a message two weeks ago on the Web site, warning of a bloodbath at the school. A video posted earlier Wednesday, by 'Sturmgeist89,' was titled 'Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007.' 'Sturmgeist89' identified himself as Auvinen, and said he chose the name 'Sturmgeist' because it means 'storm spirit' in German."

Comments

SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[Anonymous Coward]

_0_
\''\
'=o='
.|!|
.| |
slashdot post warns about goatse

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

Didn't you get the memo? The current sickout is 2girls1cup, and it is glorious.

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[Pojut]

Ah, a fellow bangedup.com viewer...never thought I would meet one here on teh slash...

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[Anonymous Coward]

I can understand this being modded off-topic, but modding it troll? What the hell mods? What is wrong with you? Shit, seems as if you are sucking on toy beads or something...

Come on fuckos, unite!

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[mollymoo]

Wow.

Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct solution to this situation is to arrest anybody who advocates a neo-Nazi ideology or questioned the historical orthodoxy about the 'holocaust'.

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

This is modded +1 Interesting? The above comment is offensive since it implicitly questions the existence of the Holocaust with the use of the quotation marks around the word.

Re:Obviously

[oyenstikker]

No. The correct solution is to arrest anybody who posts videos on YouTube.

Re:Obviously

[n dot l]

No. The correct solution is to arrest anybody who posts videos on YouTube. Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.

Re:Obviously

[jc87]

Are you joking or in LSD?

I hate those morons as much as the next guy, but come one, they have the right to be idiots, just not the one to hurt other people!

Re:Obviously

[moderatorrater]

That's ridiculous and stupid. He tended to show a smug arrogance, thinking that "the weak-minded masses" were stupid and didn't deserve to live. It reminds me of a lot of the attitudes that I encounter on slashdot, including yours.

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

I took the parent's post as a joke since he's obviously advocating a neo-Nazi ideology...

Re:Obviously

[N3WBI3]

I was wondering the same thing, the sad part is there really are people who think the basic human right of free speech means anything not offensive so its kind hard to tell if the GP is serious or not..

Re:Obviously

[PachmanP]

Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.
No, they shouldn't be arrested but simply shot on sight.

Officer: "Are you H4wTKat666?"
H4wTKat666: "lolz yaeh y?"
Officer: "Did you post this?"
*lolz OMG u r a fag. tHeys is FAKE!11!oneone*
H4wTKat666; "lolz yaeh"
*Officer shoots H4wTKat666*


I guess in afterthought, this could be in bad taste. Oh well.

Re:Obviously

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

...and place them in camps!

Re:Obviously

[MightyMartian]

Yes, well, most of the moderators are too mentally retarded and too shallow in their knowledge of history and of various vile movements like neo-Nazis and Holocaust Deniers to recognize one of these repugnant groups taglines.

Shame on the moderator involved, and shame on everyone that helped to get this fucking retard any karma at all. You're pathetic and useless, and just as bad as the Holocaust Denying scumbag you moded up.

Re:Obviously

[MightyMartian]

Oh come on, we don't think the weak-minded masses should be killed, we just think they should use OpenOffice.org!

Re:Obviously

[MightyMartian]

You see. I'm modded troll by yet another mentally retarded moderator. What a pack of fucking idiots. They have the collective IQ of a mouldy egg sandwich.

Re:Obviously

[Hatta]

That doesn't necessarily mean someone implicitly questions the existence of the 'holocaust'. Maybe they just think it's silly that there's a special word for genocide against jews. I know I do. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

The Holocaust? There are many holocausts in the history of warfare. Can you be more specific? Are you referring to World War II? You'd still have to be more specific. The Chinese claim that the Japanese killed nearly 20 million civilians including those of the Rape of NanJing. Or perhaps the 19 million Russian civilians that died as a result of the scorch the earth tactics and having been displaced during the harsh Russian winter? Let's just forget the 27 million Russian solders because they had it coming being drafted into the military to defend their count. Right? Or perhaps the Armenian and Assyrian Genocides perpetrated before this by the Ottoman Empire? Or more recently you could be referring to the Bosnian, the Rwandan and the Darfur Genocides? Or just maybe you could be referring to the complete and utter genocide of the Canaanites? So the singular name "The Holocaust" is offensive in and of itself and somewhat ethnocentric if you are referring solely to the holocaust that was perpetrated by the Nazis against the 11 million people in Germany and Poland.

Re:Obviously

[Gideon Fubar]

no, buddy.. you're modded troll because you were inciting them.. perhaps flamebait would be more appropriate, but you got modded down because of your own statements.

I dig why you'd be upset, but it ain't good karma.

Re:Obviously

[MrCopilot]

. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the fuck they want and we should respect the name they choose.

In terms of your comparisons. I think there are special circumstances that differentiate the Jew's genocide and treatment by the nazi's. They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on. They can use both titles due to the extent of their suffering. For your Info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the Armenian Genocide just prior to that during WWI.

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the fuck they want and we should respect the name they choose

But does that mean everyone has to now use an insider name 'The Holocaust' that was meant at the time of its use to unify a people? And you are kind of downplaying the other suffering that was just as profound. There were rapes, tortures, starvations, experiments and persecutions in the other genocides as well. Who are we to compare or minimize their untold suffering.

Re:Obviously

[insomnyuk]

Typically, Jews refer to the Holocaust as Shoah, or calamity.

Re:Obviously

[jagdish]

They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on

Thats what a genocide is.

Re:Obviously

[jwisser]

I agree with your initial point- survivors of a genocide should indeed get to call it what they want. But to imply that the genocide of the American Indians (or of ANY people) was any less horrific is ridiculous. Less organized, sure; no one person said, "Hey, we should eliminate this group of people based on race." An entire people just decided that they shouldn't get to keep their lives, their land, or their dignity. It might interest you to read about, for example, the Trail of Tears.

Genocide is genocide. It's evil no matter where, why, or how it happens.

Re:Obviously

[MrCopilot]

There were rapes, tortures, starvations, experiments and persecutions in the other genocides as well. Who are we to compare or minimize their untold suffering.

See my earlier point. The Rwandan genocide has plenty of horror but no distinct name yet (AFAIK).

Besides the term Genocide invokes a a pretty serious image which is in no way diminished by the term Holocaust.

Re:Obviously

[Kyojin]

Reminds me of:

Officer: Are you username ladiesman217?

Perhaps that would be a good thing, having the decepticons scouring the internet for youtube commenters.

Re:Obviously

[Enlightenment]

The Rwandan genocide has plenty of horror but no distinct name yet (AFAIK).

How about we call it "The Rwandan Genocide"?

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD]

They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on. Look, you probably do need to open your mind just a tad. The Native American got at least as bad a deal from the US as the Jews got from Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears (forced relocation, numerous examples here as well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre (machine guns turned on women and children)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/281/22/2127.pdf (smallpox used as a biological weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties (hundreds of broken treaties)

I'm already bored with this, but I could certainly keep going.

I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.

Lots of people get the shaft on a regular basis. Yes, European Jews of the 40's are in that crowd. No, we probably shouldn't infringe on someone's right to question whether or not it happened (or at least happened exactly as it was reported.)

If I have to permit people to claim that there is no God, you also get to permit people to claim things you believe to be false.

Right?

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

Then how about we also use the term "The Jewish Genocide"... Isn't that the whole arguement?

Re:Obviously

[antek9]

I fully agree, but there is one more thing that differentiates the Holocaust of WW2 from all other genocides so far: it was carried out industrially. There was a lot of logistics involved to organize the trains carrying 'human material' to the death factories, where people were divided, stripped naked, deprived of their body hair, gassed to death, burned to ashes and so on, all using assembly line principles (or those of a modern slaughterhouse) in order to murder human beings.

That is what sets the genocide of the Jews apart from every other mass murder in history so far.

Re:Obviously

[Flambergius]

I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.

I don't agree with this. I see at least two issues why the Holocaust's recentness does make it more terrible or relevant than many other genocides.

1) The Holocaust was industrialized genocide. It required the tools of an industrial society and economy to run and manage. To participate in the Holocaust you didn't really make a choice to kill the Jews, you did just your job, be it record keeping, train maintenance or gas chamber construction and you kept your mouth shut. This industrial disposal of unwanted humans is different sort of inhumanity than practiced by, say, tribal conquerors. Native Americans and Armenians, were either killed rather traditionally or ill-treated in ways that led to massive amounts of death from hunger and exposure, which, while purposeful, is still a long step from the systematic and designed activity of the Holocaust.

2) The Holocaust happened in highly developed Western nation. Much of our public activity, the energy of our societies, is spend on further progress towards ideals and policies that were supposed to be strongly present in the Germany of the 30s. Any serious look at the Holocaust must make us realize that just claiming to have ideals or to be civilized society does not make horrific things impossible. We must still be skeptical about claims of virtue and we still must take responsibility for our own actions. This lesson can not as forcefully be drawn from earlies atrocities, nor from later events in non-democratic countries.

Re:Obviously

[mollymoo]

The Native American got at least as bad a deal from the US as the Jews got from Nazi Germany.

As far as I know, it was never the policy of the US Government to exterminate every Native American, which is a pretty significant difference.

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD]

Well, you may want to compare the actual practice with the spoken policy. The US's position on Native Americans essentially mirrored that of the Nazi's towards the Jews:

They are less than human, and we will take what they have through any means necessary.

I realize that they SAID different things while they were doing it, but personally I would actually put this in the 'Pro' column for the Nazis. If you were Jewish you KNEW that the Nazis couldn't be trusted, and as a feature of this many, many people got out before it was too late. The Native American was shamelessly duped over and over again by a government that claimed to be a friend, claimed to treat them as equals, etc. This is far more dispicable in my humble opinion...

Re:Obviously

[One Childish N00b]

'Holocaust' as a word refers to any large-scale extermination of a people, especially by fire. It was not invented to describe the treatment of Jews, Gypsies and others seen as undesirable by Nazi Germany.

Re:Obviously

[ultranova]

Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the fuck they want and we should respect the name they choose.

From Wikipedia article on Silet Holocaust: "Advocates of "racial purity" doctrines, most notably certain Jewish communal and religious leaders, use this term when they describe the assimilation and intermarriage of Jews with gentiles."

It doesn't really seem particular respectful for me to liken interracial marriage and resulting loss of blood purity to mass murder. For a particularly nasty irony, consider that one of the reasons Nazi wanted to get rid of the Jews in the first place was to keep their Aryan blood pure.

Given this level of disrespect from the kin of the survivors, I really don't think that asking on Slashdot if a particular genocide needs a specific name really compares.

Re:Obviously

[MrCopilot]

If I have to permit people to claim that there is no God, you also get to permit people to claim things you believe to be false.

You mean like the existence of God.

You've almost lost the argument with that one little statement. But on to your point.

The Native American got at least as bad a deal from the US as the Jews got from Nazi Germany.

Look, I'm not arguing that the Jews were worse off than the Native Americans, the Rwandans, or any other Genocidal victims. I'm arguing that the level of Organization, The Support Structure, The Methods employed, all raised the horror level above your "average" Genocide. I mean no disrespect. What the US did to the Native Americans was truly horrible. If you'd like to start a movement to name those actions the Native American Holocaust, you/they would have my support. But You/They haven't, have you/they? Whereas ...... The original argument was whether the "Jewish Genocide" deserved it's own name, I think it did, I kinda think they all do. Using genocide as a general term covering them all would suit me fine.

Re:Obviously

[MrCopilot]

Genocide is genocide. It's evil no matter where, why, or how it happens.

I hardly think I described it as not evil.

I only stated that the name Holocaust refers to the overall experience the Jews suffered through. It doesn't just cover killing them. There were Holocaust survivors, there are NO such thing as Genocide survivors. Only people who were not caught and killed in a Genocide.

Interesting

[Biotech9]

The shooter left a few documents (including a 'manifesto', a video of him shooting his 0.22 pistol in the woods and picture of himself) open to the public;
Freaky stuff....

Re:Interesting

[Funkcikle]

On the plus side, he uses PNG format for his images.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up?

People always telegraph their intentions beforehand, but seeing it is almost always reserved for after the fact. Most attempts to predict this sort of behaviour run aground on the fact that it doesn't sound all that different from regular messed up behaviour. Of course a lot of people would like to stomp that out, but a lot of antisocial people still don't go to the point of mass murder...or even solo murder, or self-murder.

I look at things like this, and my first response is never: "Oh gosh, we should have seen it coming!" For every real nutjob, there are a hundred others who are just being young, alienated, and angry. Every quasi-normal action is held up as a "warning sign" and every admittedly abnormal action is magnified, and then used to villify people who "should have seen it coming."

I don't know. Just my experience that, every time something like this happens, it's used as an excuse to harass people who don't fit the "normal" mold, whatever the hell that is, and when, in reality, 99% of the people you're harassing have done nothing wrong, and will do nothing wrong.

Re:Interesting

[WWWWolf]

HyîkkÑyksen Tiedot.doc

So, basically, he let out this Media Kit, hoping to imprint his manifesto in our souls in fiery letters. However, his tactic is doomed - due to technological considerations, his data is being eaten. Over the preceding hours, I've watched this thing getting mirrored in various locations... but this particular file's name keeps changing, because it has non-ASCII characters. (It's supposed to be named "Hyökkäyksen Tiedot.doc", in case you were wondering. I hope it gets posted right when I hit submit. It looks okay in preview, but hey, this is Slashdot, Eater of High-Bit Characters. =)

Is this truly the state of computing in 2007? Data rot hits in mere hours of releasing any kind of information? This is pathetic! Utterly pathetic!

I, for one, am quite saddened by the case (of course), but I can't fail to see the humorous sides of the case. (Please don't blame me. It's just one of my ways to cope with the tragedies.)

Re:Interesting

[torkus]

A hundered others? Way more than that!

I can't count the number of times myself or someone else in elementary, middle, and high school got pissed off and said 'i'm going to kill you'.

No shooting that I recall and I put in 15 years. 1600 people at my high school.

Better question..."where were the parents" when google wasn't filtering the internet, youtube didn't have a therapist review every post, the school didn't notice the anti-social behavior, his friends didn't let anyone know he was so disturbed... Not that the parents are responsible. Clearly all the others are though.

Re:Interesting

[davester666]

Did YouTube enable this guy to get his message out?

Maybe YouTube should be banned from minors, just like violent video games...

And yes, this is meant to be completely ridiculous!

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

Oh sure, that wasn't meant to be a real number, just a piece of hyperbole. Truth of it is, school shootings are absurdly rare...They seem a lot less rare because the media makes so much of them.

For the number of people who dream of getting a gun and mowing down their high school (myself included on several occasions, and I was in college when Columbine happened), the number of people who actually do it is as low as can be.

I certainly think parents are the first line of defense. Teacher's can't be expected to "sense" when a kid is about to snap and start killing people, but a parent should notice that sort of nihilism, and at least get them to therapy, where a professional would have a chance of doing a real evaluation. Not to say that I'm a big fan of psychotherapy, but still.

Re:Interesting

[mastershake_phd]

But...but...think of the Children! As Stephen Colbert said "Live Free or Do Whatever It Takes So I Don't Die"

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

They would have caught him sooner if only he would have used copyrighted music in his video posts

Re:Interesting

[Dare nMc]

Teacher's can't be expected to "sense" when a kid is about to snap and start killing people, but a parent should notice that sort of nihilism, and at least get them to therapy

as you say, apparently 99.99% +- .01% of the time Worst case is avoided. Doesn't stop many people from mistakingly thinking that schools are the biggest threat to their children. At some point young adults have to learn how to recognize danger to.

Re:Interesting

[cromar]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Dante wasn't a crazed devil because he imagined and wrote The Divine Comedy. Nor was Shakespeare because he wrote King Lear and Macbeth. Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it.

Re:Interesting

[xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D]

Indeed. As I was reading through his manifesto, just about every sentence I thought "this could come from just about any Slashdotter", which I guess is slightly ironic considering it's all about how everyone is a robot/slave (part of the "retarded masses") and he's the only one intelligent/strong-minded enough to see through it. But what's the manifesto about? The human race is devolving, he's the most intelligent person to have ever lived, that social Darwinism is valid, that proper grammar is optional (okay that was a cheap shot considering English isn't his first language). Sounds like a run-of-the-mill Slashdot comment to me.

Admittedly the 89 YouTube videos put him over the top, but just based on his writings, he could be one of probably millions of angsty people in the world today.

Re:Interesting

[quintessentialk]

The FBI's behavior analysis unit, or whatever it is called, put together some documents on predicting school shootings and the like. Though there is some good advice in there, I couldn't help but read a lot the profiles of shooters as 'profiles of adolescents.'

There's a lot of people who are little bit wacky, especially when teenagers, who are not actually dangerously wacky. Being angry, or fascinated with death, or interested in fringe groups, or being emotionally unstable in general, etc., are pretty common teenager traits.

Re:Interesting

[GoodbyeBlueSky1]

Here's the thing about blaming the parents...no one can get rich and/or further an agenda based on that. Lawyers, media pundits, politicians, et al each have good reason to attack youtube/video games/[insert favorite scapegoat here] for personal gain and glory whenever tragedy strikes. It has been and always will be this way.

Re:Interesting

[Kjella]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up? And the even more practical YRO question: Even if you're 110% convinced he's scary messed up, what can you do before he goes ballistic? To get into therapy he either has to want it, be stark raving mad or show very clear violent tendencies. Most of these loners don't want help from the world they hate, they're not bubbling mad since they're rational enough to plan and execute and most of them just keep it all bottled up until it goes boom. In short, there's rarely something to formally latch onto in order to force them to get help.

Re:Interesting

[Hal_Porter]

Yeah, but Dante and Shakespeare spent their time writing or with their friends or families. This dude spent his time alone taking pictures of himself aiming his gun into a camera wearing a 'Humanity is Overrated' T shirt with various blank expressions -

http://zami.pp.fi/jokela/Natural%20Selector%203.png Mirror

Re:Interesting

[Hal_Porter]

Maybe I'm being unfair to the guy. He did some writing too -

http://zami.pp.fi/jokela/Attack%20Information.doc

ATTACK INFORMATION

Event: Jokela High School Massacre.
Targets: Jokelan Lukio (High School Of Jokela), students and faculty, society, humanity, human race.
Date: 11/7/2007.
Attack Type: Mass murder, political terrorism (altough I choosed the school as target, my motives for the attack are political and much much deeper and therefore I dont want this to be called only as school shooting).
Location: Jokela, Tuusula, Finland.
Perpetrators name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist). I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.
Weapons: Semi-automatic .22 Sig Sauer Mosquito pistol.

Re:Interesting

[eviloverlordx]

that proper grammar is optional

Grammar? On Slashdot, only Grammar Nazis use grammar!

Re:Interesting

[KKlaus]

Whether violent fantasies are cathartic has nothing to do with whether they are risk factors or not (which they are).

Re:Interesting

[Bigon]

but doc files for his manifesto :o

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

a parent should notice that sort of nihilism, and at least get them to therapy

So now you're in favor of "harassing" those 99% that just want people to believe they are dangerous but aren't? I agree. I think "harassing" 99 people to avoid one act of violence is a small price to pay. Threatening behavior should never be accepted, and these kids need to learn that even if they weren't really going to shoot their classmates.

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Here's why- because violent fantasies aren't therapeutic and cathartic.

There is a difference between things that feel good and things that are good for you. Catharsis feels good. Freud told us that catharsis was good for us. Freud also was full of shit.

Here's the deal. Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. There are many ways to deal with this:

1. Accept the limitations of the situation. Find other ways to get what you want.
2. Use the anger to get energy to overcome the challenges in ways that respect others.
3. Use the anger to get energy to overcome your sense of empathy and ignore the rights of others.
4. Ignore your desire to do something about the challenges. Get depressed.

Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it. You don't realize that they increase anger when you do it, because anger without a solution feels bad, and dominance and/or validation from others feels good. The good feeling you get after violent fantasies or from venting is not the antithesis of the original anger you felt, though- it's a reward for your anger. This can be good, if you were doing strategy 4 and, because of your increased anger, are ready to go to strategies 1 or 2. But if that's not the transition in strategies that's going to take place, then there's no benefit.

Side note: where did people get the idea that "therapeutic" meant "feels nice"? Improving one's health (mental or physical) very often involves sacrifice and changing habitual ways of thinking and acting. Things that feel nice like "therapeutic" shampoo or "therapeutic" massages or "therapeutic" whatever do nothing by themselves to promote growth or change.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he would have been an interesting individual to meet, at least speak with. It's rediculous that things like this get so much media play. Not any more or less important than anyone else who gets murdered today. (On Average, in times of peace, 10 Americans are murdered every day).

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe YouTube should be banned from minors, just like violent video games...

Well I blame the Internet itself, and most especially the American culture it imports. You can see how influential it has been on this guy by the date format he uses ;)

Re:Interesting

[Litty_Bell]

Well speaking from personal experience with people who think along the lines of "she wrote about rape and murder she's a crazy psycho killer" I have to agree with you. I write about some really I'd up stuff, I'm not gonna lie and say otherwise. Last year a teacher in my school decided it would be alright to just go through my personal notebook, he read all of my poems and short stories and almost every single one is dark and violent. He brought it to the principal who immediately decided I should be sent away to the nuthouse because I was going to kill everyone. One important thing to know, I have a two year old daughter named Violet, she's the product of rape. I write to deal with what happened to me. I was forced into therapy and they even pushed for expulsion, saying that I was a danger to myself and the school. Which is bull. Instead of waiting for them to decide if I should be allowed in school or not I left voluntarily and go to a new school now. I personally think the people telling those who do write violent or dark things that their crazy are in fact much more crazy then any writer could ever be. Okay, I'm done now...

Re:Interesting

[LWATCDR]

"I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Dante wasn't a crazed devil because he imagined and wrote The Divine Comedy. Nor was Shakespeare because he wrote King Lear and Macbeth. Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it."
Where is your documentation?
Sorry but if you are having fantasies about kill people because they are a less human than you then I don't think they therapeutic.

Re:Interesting

[sznupi]

...and chose quite a good hosting provider. No /. effect so far...

Re:Interesting

[Lurker2288]

There was a really good article by Malcolm Gladwell in the New Yorker recently about the FBI's profilers, and he makes an excellent point that much of what they do is similar to the kind of 'cold reading' employed by so-called psychics and other performers. Namely, they make statements that are broad enough to fit almost anybody and throw in some flimsy statiscal guesses. By the time the bad guy is caught, all anyone remembers is how well the profile matched him.

Gladwell describes an experiment done (I think in Britain) where a group of detectives was given the case file (including the profile) of a previously solved murder case and a description of the man convincted of the crime. The detectives rated the profile as highly accurate. The researcher then made up a murderer totally unlike the actual killer and gave THAT description to another group of detectives, along with the case file. Again, the detectives rated the profile as 'highly accurate.' And yet this supposed discipline remains enormously popular, both with the public and with many cops.

Re:Interesting

[Capsaicin]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic.

Guess what, people are not all the same. Violent fantasies can be therapeutic and cathartic for some people. Others (obviously) seek to reify them.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of American culture, why is it in the US we always get a body count in the headline? Not here, it's as if the Finnish don't really know what makes American Pyschos great, body count man, it's all about the body count. Hmmmm, maybe he didn't actually do that good.

Re:Interesting

[mqduck]

Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it. FYI, you probably meant "non-psychopath". Well, maybe not. Perhaps "psycho" is a good compromise.

Re:Interesting

[The Clockwork Troll]

So his motives were transparent.

Re:Interesting

[Gideon Fubar]

i dunno which one you saw, but the one i watched had KMFDM's stray bullet innit.

Re:Interesting

[budgenator]

dude you screwed up and posted that to /., you know News for Nerds, the few of us that aren't anti-social whacko's getting too many wedgies from the jocks around here pretend to be just to fit in!

Re:Interesting

[c6gunner]

You should read some of the other comments in response to the parent post. In short, just because something feels good, doesn't mean it's going to have a positive effect on your life, or that it's in any way beneficial. If I have a headache, I can inject some heroin and it'll go away and I'll feel real nice, but the that temporary relief isn't worth the long-term results. And while I certainly wish you hadn't had to go through such a horrible experience, I can say for a fact that life is FULL of traumatizing and life-altering experiences, and that brooding on them and letting yourself descend into a fantasy world of "dark and violent stuff" isn't going to help your situation any.

Re:Interesting

[mdwh2]

You should read some of the other comments in response to the parent post. In short, just because something feels good, doesn't mean it's going to have a positive effect on your life, or that it's in any way beneficial.

I'm sure kicking him out of school or sending him away to the nuthouse will have a wonderfully positive effect on his life!

If I have a headache, I can inject some heroin and it'll go away and I'll feel real nice, but the that temporary relief isn't worth the long-term results. And while I certainly wish you hadn't had to go through such a horrible experience, I can say for a fact that life is FULL of traumatizing and life-altering experiences, and that brooding on them and letting yourself descend into a fantasy world of "dark and violent stuff" isn't going to help your situation any.

I think the question is: Should he be getting his therapy advice off of someone on Slashdot, especially someone who compares writing out thoughts to injecting heroin?

Re:Interesting

[Urza9814]

Yea, but he also used .doc
*shudders*

Re:Interesting

[flayzernax]

Except now he's dead too and anything he had to say is moot.

He's right about society, people, and humans.

His solution was wrong. He lost, we will not win by killing everything that moves.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. I found that very insightful.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

. . . or self-murder. Often called "suicide."

Re:Interesting

[syousef]

Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it.

You lost me right there. Perhaps I don't have really violent fantasies, but if a person vents into a video game, often that anger is spent. It doesn't necessarily come back later 100 times stronger. Sometimes you can focus your anger on something like say a shoot em up. You focus your frustration on the game till that frustration is spent and you move on.

Things that feel nice like "therapeutic" shampoo or "therapeutic" massages or "therapeutic" whatever do nothing by themselves to promote growth or change.

Sometimes what's bad feels good. Sometimes, what's good for you also feels good. Sometimes it depends on the circumstance.

Lets agree moderate excercise in general if done sensibly is good for you. So lets talk about moderate excercise that someone of low fitness can do without it being dangerous. If you're unfit it feels awful but it's still good for you. If you're fit you can get addicted to it (and go too far which isn't good) and it's still good for you.

Getting back to what you were saying Therapeutic shampoo is great for you if you haven't washed your hair in a week. (It's probably not much better benefit wise than the regular stuff though).

If you're feeling good you have to apply another level of rational thought, and consider the CONSEQUENCES of your actions. Is getting drunk today going to kill brain and liver cells, turn me into an obnoxious violent person that destroys relationships with people? So it might feel good for you to have that first drink but if you have a penchant for getting drunk its a bad idea and not good for you. If you know how to stop at 2, have weighed up the consequences, and have the money it may feel just as good but not be bad for you at all.

So I think your idea that you have to feel bad to do yourself good is very very twisted and in itself dangerous. Your world must be a narrow hateful place where you despise anything that makes you feel good. That certainly ain't good.

Re:Interesting

[Smauler]

Violent fantasies are a natural part of growing up in most people. I had fantasies of becoming all powerful and punishing those who disagreed with me when I was younger. Someone who is bullied will often have violent fantasies of becoming stronger and kicking the ass of those who are bullying them. These are not things that are not normal. Everyone has fantasies that give them more power than is normal.

You missed a fifth option : Accept your desire but realise it cannot be realised, you can't satiate your desire. Many people go through life wanting billions of dollars, but know that they're never going to get it. Just because you want something doesn't mean you are going to act on that desire, or do something stupid when they can't get it. That is not repression of anything, that is just realism. I'd like to fuck a nice eighteen year old now, doesn't mean I'm going to act on that impulse and rape the next 18 year old who walks past.

Re:Interesting

[gardyloo]

Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. Or you will study science.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

You make it sound so nice and full of options.
Too bad 1 and 2 are usually just delusions hiding 3 and 4 (because there are, typically, no options available - for most people), and neither are really as 'balancy-sounding' as the above.

Re:Interesting

[Jarik_Tentsu]

To some extent I can agree with you...Violent fantasies could just serve to cause more harm to a person's psyche...

But at the same time, people who tend to be very open to anger seem to handle it better than people who bottle it up and finally release it in an explosion of uncontrolled rage.

Or hell, sexual fantasies - most people who engage in any sort of sexual fantasy or enjoy their fantasies through porn, such as S&M, rape, etc etc, don't necessarily go around *doing* it.

~Jarik

Re:Interesting

[pekkak]

I really liked it a lot more when Finland made the news because of Linus. ****!

Re:Interesting

[tsvk]

...and chose quite a good hosting provider. No /. effect so far...

That is only one mirror of several.

The original files were in a zip file hosted on RapidShare, and the link to RapidShare was in his YouTube profile.

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

So I think your idea that you have to feel bad to do yourself good is very very twisted and in itself dangerous. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that something feeling good does not make it therapeutic. Something promoting positive change is therapeutic; this often is an uncomfortable process, because stasis is usually more comfortable than growth.

Sometimes what's bad feels good. Sometimes, what's good for you also feels good. That's the ticket.

Re:Interesting

[rpbird]

I credit Robert E. Howard for keeping me sane through high school, and more violent imagery you could not find. Conan, Bran Mak Morn, Solomon Kane, their blood-soaked adventures helped me cope. I can't explain way. I am not the only one. I've met two other guys who had the same experience. Hell, I made my own martial arts weapons (shirikin, 'chucks, chain weapons, etc.). Did I ever hurt anyone? No. My mom and dad kept a good eye on me, too, and stepped in on a couple occasions when they thought I was getting to be a little too much of a loner. So maybe those are the two keys to preventing this, maybe every teenager should have some form of mental refuge and others who care about him.

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

I caught the humor, but I mean "provoke" not in the figurative sense of "hmm... that was thought provoking", but in the sense of "this other person that I'm interacting with is knowingly going directly against my interests, for their own gain". By "challenge our assumptions and expectations", I'm not talking about electrons doing their crazy probabilistic tunneling thing, I'm talking about how our plans get dashed by any of a hundred day-to-day obstacles that stand in between us and what we thought would be ours.

Re:Interesting

[commodoresloat]

In short, just because something feels good, doesn't mean it's going to have a positive effect on your life, or that it's in any way beneficial. Where did she say it "feels good" to write about it or even that it's beneficial? I've written some pretty dark shit myself and I don't do it because it "feels good" or because I think it will make me better; in fact, I don't make a conscious decision about whether I'm going to write that sort of stuff; I just do. Sometimes it's the only way to deal with certain feelings -- not to feel better as a result, but just to feel, or to better understand what you feel. Maybe I wind up a better person after writing it, maybe not -- all I can say is I never do a cost benefit analysis before choosing to write something. And it's a little condescending to tell someone not to "brood" on their experiences or "descend into a fantasy world" just because they admit to writing things you might not find comfortable to read.

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

These are questions of some subtlety.

Who is your true self? What constitutes "hiding" your true self, when self-control is an act of the self?

I believe that your midbrain can light up with anger, and your motor cortex can get pumped up, and your frontal lobe can say "whoa, let's figure out a constructive way to deal with this". All of those are "you"; none are delusions.

I get this sense that you're not making the distinction between anger and aggression (which to me is a very important distinction). Aggression is but one response to anger; if you only let yourself get angry when aggression would be acceptable, you'll probably end up depressed but quick. When constructive responses to anger within yourself are available, then being angry can be a normal, natural part of life.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

People are so judgmental and extreme. While the stories may not help her in any way, it's still should not be a problem for the community or the school whatever she writes. No one is purporting to have solutions for her, but I guess that compassion and understanding would go a lot further to better her situations than hasty judgments and forced actions.

Re:Interesting

[darthflo]

Doesn't stop many people from mistakingly thinking that schools are the biggest threat to their children.

Check the parallels to "the real world". I don't have any studies to confirm this, but I am quite certain if you'd walk around Boston (remember the Mooninites?) and asked a representative group of people which of Terrorists, Traffic or Hunger they deem the biggest danger to humans in general, the overwhelming majority would answer "Terrorists".
I must admit to be a bit under-informed in numbers, but as far as I know, "Terrorists" (let's limit this to the common use related to Al Quaeda and such, no spanish separatists, no isreal/palestine conflict) cause a few hundred deaths per year. Traffic causes what, a five or six digit sum of casualties in the U.S. alone annually? What about famines? Five to six digits per day?
While I'm ranting: How many hundred billions has the U.S. gov't spent on The War Against Terror (gotta like that thing's acronym) in recent years? How many millions directly on fighting world hunger? (Reparations to Iraq and Afghanistan belong to TWAT!)

Re:Interesting

[darthflo]

"Venting" does not reduce anger.

And that's where you're really, really wrong (alternatively I could've just mistunderstood what you meant by "Venting", but if you're referring to working off your anger about topic A with completely unrelated topic B, it works). Example: This monday my (hate to type those two letters, but I guess they're true now) ex-girlfriend (cue "Welcome Back to /." jokes) dumped me. For the next hours you may or may not be able to imagine how fucking angry I was (hint: "very, very, very"). I rented a bike, rode some 60 kilometers, two hours later I still felt bad as hell but a lot better than before. I was even able to write comprehensible sentences once again. "Venting", of course, didn't solve the problem, but it certainly helped me see things more clear, focus on the actual problem and realize how wrong my initial anger reaction was. Most other forms of "Venting" will, imo and most of the time, produce similar results. If pulling the trigger of a gun while it's pointing at a target in a shooting range, killing loads of virtual zombies or beating up boxing bags help you shut off the world and think clearer: Go for it. Just don't affect people adversely.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'm sure kicking him out of school or sending him away

High school boys don't have children who are the product of rape.

Boys don't get pregnant. doh.

Also, in order to deal with emotions they have to be examined. It doesn't have to be about catharsis. It can be about self discovery and healing.
As long as wallowing in your problems doesn't become a problem.

Re:Interesting

[Kamineko]

You're representing opinion as absolutes here, y'know.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair though, he didn't pirate music. So he can't have been all that bad.

This post was brought to you by the MPAA.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Violent fantasies are only therapeutic and cathartic in film.

In computer games they are the exact opposite.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

oh man I wish there was a +7 mod

-- drunk

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Some background has emerged in Finnish media. He was a straight-A's student, and regularly picked on for his half-mad super-arrogant uber-mensch ideas of himself cmopared to others around him. This behavior was well-known and went back for years.

The really sinister part of the story, aside the eight deaths of course, is that in his published videos and writings he openly admires the Columbia school massacre and wishes to "do as well" -- and he talked about that at school days before. It's sickening that this kind of followership was a clearly expressed intention of the two Columbia sickos. They got their copycat.

The one bright side has been the massive national reaction in Finland about this; not for putting metal detectors and guards at schools, but for people to look after and care for each other better at this cold competitive day and age. That has been the overwhelming "cure" proposal in interviews and 'net forums. There have been proposals from top politicians to "recruit" the only people who have the time and the manpower to keep an eye open for these -- the youngsters themselves. We are having a very healhy (and perhaps long needed) national discourse going on right now -- it could have gone the other way to just finger-pointing. Maybe we have learned something somewhere along the way?

Re:Interesting

[c6gunner]

Maybe I wind up a better person after writing it, maybe not -- all I can say is I never do a cost benefit analysis before choosing to write something.

Maybe you should? Or better yet, maybe you should try figuring out what drives you to do it in the first place. As long as you're only harming yourself, I don't really care what you do, but I'd still prefer to have you NOT harming yourself.

And it's a little condescending to tell someone not to "brood" on their experiences or "descend into a fantasy world" just because they admit to writing things you might not find comfortable to read.

I suppose it's also a bit condescending to say to a guy standing on a ledge "don't do it, you have plenty to live for". What would you say instead, in order to avoid sounding condescending? "jump you stupid bastard"?

Re:Interesting

[Flambergius]

There is a difference between things that feel good and things that are good for you. Catharsis feels good. Freud told us that catharsis was good for us. Freud also was full of shit.

The concept of catharsis is much older than that. Aristotle (ca. 335 BCE) use it in his Poetics in pretty much as we do now and the concept predates even him. Sure Freud said many things that weren't true, but that has nothing to do with catharsis being good for you or not.

Re:Interesting

[CarpetShark]

I look at things like this, and my first response is never: "Oh gosh, we should have seen it coming!" For every real nutjob, there are a hundred others who are just being young, alienated, and angry.

Exactly. And we need to start recognising this as a society. Kids like that are trying to tell us something. In the past, it's been hard for them, because shooting a lot of people doesn't tend to get you a prime spot on TV to air your point of view. Now that things like youtube are available, this will probably happen more often, until people pay attention and sort out the troubles kids have.

Re:Interesting

[the_arrow]

Whether violent fantasies are cathartic has nothing to do with whether they are risk factors or not (which they are).

So you never thought "I wish he/she was dead" about someone you hated? That makes you a really special person. If, on the other hand, you have had thought so, you too are a risk factor.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

It's a very easy thing to say when you've never been through that type of thing.

"Why can't you get over it?" "What's wrong with you that this still effects you?" "Why can't you understand that that was yesterday/last month/last year and get on with your life?"

Very easy to say when it's not you.

There are emotional traumas that do not go away. It's like an old wound. Sometimes it gets sore again, years later. May even get a little gross again, vent some pus, whatever. Emotional scars are just like that. You may not like that fact, but when you spend all your time trying to be happy, and not dealing with the crap going on inside you, it eats at you, and does a lot more damage to you than some dark writing or a crying jag or self destructive exercise (my personal fav) or whatever that you believe, from your happy world, to be harmful.

Your "inject some heroin" metaphor sucks, by the way. You think people express self-destructive emotions because it makes them feel good? Sometimes the cup runneth over, and if you can put those feelings into something productive, no matter how weird someone like you may think it is, then you're doing a hell of a lot better than most people, living their lives of quiet despair.

Re:Interesting

[Alexpkeaton1010]

If they refuse theory, call in the Exorcist.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

I think he's saying you're missing the point. You may think that telling someone to "get over it" is enough, but it's usually not. I spent a lot of time telling myself to get over it, and it was never notably helpful.

The problem is usually not figuring out what's bothering you. It's usually pretty obvious. The question is what do you do about it? If you've been through some kind of abuse, how do you get over it? If you're shunned by all your peers, how do you fix it? If you hate yourself, how do you go on from there? You're very flip about it, but usually it's more complicated than someone with little empathy giving you their pithy one-sentence diagnosis of all your problems.

As for the guy who's trying to commit suicide, I think both of your answers are ridiculous. Either he's serious, in which case, you're not going to be able to do anything about it. Or he's just out for attention, and it doesn't really matter what you say. Either way, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand: people venting their anger in ways you find threatening. If you want to help someone in that situation you have to try to help them, not just snidely opine about their condition. Even if you try to help them, you'll probably fail, and that's speaking from a lifetime of watching people fail and be failed.

Re:Interesting

[Reservoir Penguin]

That is a pretty dark post you write. Do you feel better now?

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

See, that's my point. Do you think that post was in any way a catharisis or a release for me? That was just description; I don't really do the dark writing anymore, and as much as I did do it it was more about myself, and less about emotional trauma in general.

But I'm sure there are people out there who come across imagery of wounds and pus and think, "ZOMG! Psycho killer!" because clearly, only someone with a seriously deranged mind could ever write something like that, as opposed to butterflys and flowers and happy running children.

Life's not naturally pretty. Lot of people don't seem to realize that our current state of strife-free happiness is not the universal state. Read some poetry coming out of war zones, and you'll see some seriously "deranged" stuff...People trying to articulate their feelings, so they can put them to rest. It's not a product of a dangerous mind; it's more about a mind trying to cope with emotional damage, and with events that have done damage to their world view.

Re:Interesting

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it. You don't realize that they increase anger when you do it, because anger without a solution feels bad, and dominance and/or validation from others feels good. The good feeling you get after violent fantasies or from venting is not the antithesis of the original anger you felt, though- it's a reward for your anger. This can be good, if you were doing strategy 4 and, because of your increased anger, are ready to go to strategies 1 or 2. But if that's not the transition in strategies that's going to take place, then there's no benefit.

References? Evidence?

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

I don't have primary sources on hand. Check out this NYT article and this well-sourced article.

I mean to highlight the following:

''Talking out an emotion doesn't reduce it, it rehearses it,'' wrote Dr. Tavris, a social psychologist who has gathered hundreds of research references to support her views. ''People who are most prone to give vent to their rage get angrier, not less angry.'' [emphasis mine]

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

I should have spoken with more tentativeness, it's true, but my statements are not ungrounded. See a reply below for some sources.

Re:Interesting

[immcintosh]

I'm sorry, and this is of course just my opinion, but I see you as being very very wrong in this. The whole point about "fantasy" is just that, it's a FANTASY. You're "venting" (since that seems to be the popular word here) frustrations into your imagination rather than into the real world. What would worry me is a person who NEVER had ANY kind of violent fantasies, I would be much more nervous of such a person eventually venting his or her frustrations (which are there whether they're fantasized about or not) into the REAL world.

To put it shortly, EVERYBODY gets incredibly angry sometimes, that's just the way it is. We have violent fantasies to allow that anger to vent in a non-destructive socially agreeable manner. Now, for people who can't make the distinction and turn those fantasies into reality... well I'd say that's another matter altogether.

Re:Interesting

[jpfed]

To put it shortly, EVERYBODY gets incredibly angry sometimes, that's just the way it is. We have violent fantasies to allow that anger to vent in a non-destructive socially agreeable manner. What I don't understand is, how does that make any aspect of the anger "go away"? The provoking situation is there until you change your appraisal of the situation (i.e. learn to accept it), you've done something about it, or external forces render the situation moot.

Real-world example: I missed the last bus to get to work today. This pissed me off, because I was at the stop and the driver made eye contact with me and blew right by me. How should I deal with that anger? One way would be to have a violent fantasy about the driver, but that is fixating my attention on the obstacle and really doing nothing to get me to work on time. In my mind, a higher-expected-utility strategy is to back up, find out what need the obstacle is hindering, and find an alternative course that satisfies that need. Putting alternative strategies into effect takes energy- but thankfully, your anger just gave you energy!- so if you react to it constructively, it all works out.

Re:Interesting

[Grygus]

Grammar? On Slashdot, only Grammar Nazis use grammar! One-word sentence. -5

Re:Interesting

[c6gunner]

It's a very easy thing to say when you've never been through that type of thing.

Why is it that every fucking emo kid answers the same way? Listen, just because I don't believe in acting like a depressed nimrod 24/7 doesn't mean I haven't had my share of bad experiences. Until you've seen an 18 year old kid screaming his head off with his intestines lying on the ground beside him, and then had to try and keep him alive, you aint seen "traumatizing", brother.

Your "inject some heroin" metaphor sucks, by the way. You think people express self-destructive emotions because it makes them feel good?

Absolutely.

Why do some freaks cut themselves? Burn themselves? Because they enjoy the pain. They enjoy the endorphin rush. Why do some people get hundreds of piercings? Why do many people engage in meaningless, unsafe, random sex? Why do some men pay dominatrices hundreds of dollars to abuse them?

All of those are examples of behaviours which satisfy a temporary need, and provide temporary pleasure, but are self-destructive and often harmful in the long run. If you don't realize that, that's too bad. The first step to fixing your problems is learning to acknowledge them.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Until you've seen an 18 year old kid screaming his head off with his intestines lying on the ground beside him, and then had to try and keep him alive, you aint seen "traumatizing", brother.

Yeah, seeing that is much worse than being raped. Not.

Re:Interesting

[jafac]

No;
GP is right.

If I vent into a video game, because I'm angry about a situation with my real life - I still have to return to that real life.

The video game may make me feel better temporarily, but I get no validation or resolution to my problem. I go back to the real life situation, and I just get angry again. Worse: I have flexed my "venting" muscles.

That's not a reason to ban violent videogames. It's a reason to BAN institutionalized child-factories that lock our kids into situations where they have no solutions for problems that cause them anger, and no validations for these feelings, until they're forced to act out. And since the consequences for acting out will often worsen their situation, the only way to avoid those consequences is death - therefore: (and I've been saying this over and over since Columbine) - we have a broken system that GUARANTEES that every once in a while, something like this is going to happen.

It's an easy criticism to make; and it's a very hard problem to solve. Because frankly, public schools are woven very tightly into the fabric of our modern society. I think we've collectively chosen to accept the occasional school shooting as a consequence of our lack of fortitude in facing this problem, or trying to solve it more constructively.

Re:Interesting

[Teriblows]

yup npr interview on talk of the nation http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7454969 link good for today only since its only todays show that is downloadable seems profiling is about as good as astrology.

Re:Interesting

[jafac]

People are judgemental and extreme because these stories get distorted by the newsmedia - because it is very profitable for them to do so, (and they risk nothing by doing so). People are already afraid enough of anything or anyone that's outside the norm. Add to that the specter of OMG: freako's gonna shoot up my precious baby's school! and you've got yourself the makings of a grade-a National Witch-Hunt.

Which, of course, as we've seen, helps the situation.
Am I right?

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

Oh, I've had my share of bad experiences as well; been beaten, broken, cut, and even shot once, if you count birdshot, which I'm not sure I do...Getting the pellets removed isn't much worse than picking gravel out of your legs after a bad spill. Had a bit of a rough childhood.

Didn't ruin my life, but it and other similar stuff put me through a pretty dark period...Under your rules, I'd have been locked up no doubt, for being abnormal, though I never hurt any one outside of the occasional fistfight, and those seldom had a lot of blood.

You've got the tact and empathy of a turnip. You deny that other people are entitled to their emotional problems, and you equate having seen other people suffer to having empathy. I've seen other people suffer, and it's ugly, but it's a lot easier than dealing with your own problems. May be frustrating, may induce some pity in people who are capable of it, but you move on.

On top of that you pigeonhole everyone as freaks and masochists, and just say they do it for fun, like self-destructive behaviour, the real deal not the attention-seeking kind, is just a rational choice with a nice payoff. If you really feel that way about the world, I pity you.

Re:Interesting

[commodoresloat]

maybe you should try figuring out what drives you to do it in the first place. As long as you're only harming yourself, I don't really care what you do, but I'd still prefer to have you NOT harming yourself. Uhhh, dude. I'm writing. Words. In a book. Why the fuck would you call that "harming yourself"?

I suppose it's also a bit condescending to say to a guy standing on a ledge "don't do it, you have plenty to live for". What would you say instead, in order to avoid sounding condescending? Are you serious? In order to not sound condescending, how about not comparing writing poetry to jumping off a fucking ledge, for starters.

Re:Interesting

[c6gunner]

Under my rules you'd be locked up? Well, ok, maybe for being criminally stupid and attempting to libel me, sure. Definitely not for being a freak, though. As far as I'm concerned, you're more than welcome to abuse yourself as much as you want. Just don't surb-stomp any puppies, and we're golden.

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy]

No puppies!?! Shit man, that's over the fricking line. Who the hell are you to mess with my social life!?

Sorry, I did misrepresent you...Got you confused with someone a few posts up who said that "abnormal" behaviour should be monitored and squashed if it went over some imaginary line.

In long term retrospect, I can see where you were going, though telling the rape victim that her coping mechanisims are wrong is probably not what I'd consider tasteful. I've dealt with the emo crowd...Well, mostly goths in my case, as I'm too old to intersect with actual emo types on a regular basis...Had people tell me that I "Didn't understand pain" because I couldn't appreciate their unrequited love for Billy Corgan. So I understand the whiny "feel my pain" crowd, and I share your distaste for them.

But with real trauma you often get "real" self-destructive behviour, and it's not always bad...It's like poking a wound to see if it's healed. Now of course there are degrees, but sometimes its healthiest to express some of the ugliness inside yourself, not to build it up, but to wear it down.

Re:Interesting

[c6gunner]

Gotcha. You're right, I'm not very tactful. I blame that on the 9 years I spent working for the military as a ..... professional in the field of applied ballistics and crisis management. Not much call for tact there. However, I'm working on becoming more touchy-feely and politically correct, so bear with me :)

I understand your point too, and you're right in that self-destructive behaviour may be of some limited, temporary use, however I've seen it end badly much too often. To re-use my earlier analogy - morphine, if used properly, can help to relieve a patients pain and suffering, and even help speed healing to an extent. However, too much of it will lead the same person to become an addict, creating a whole host of new problems for him to deal with.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you have been in both situations, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

That ain't cool

[dippitydoo]

No Bueno man, No bueno.

It's the media

[Reader X]

I blame video games.

Well, someone had to say it.

/bracing for media hysteria to follow

Re:It's the media

[Max Romantschuk]

While it's reasonable to assume that some people will react with "We should ban X" -reactions, judging from the recent local news (I live in Finland) I think this time around there will be more talk about how no one noticed what was happening inside the shooters head and less about what to blame.

Interestingly, the news interviewed a friend of his who apparently hadn't noticed anything much more than the kid keeping to himself. It seems to have come as a surprise to everyone.

The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming.

Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter. When I last saw the news at 22:00 local time he was alive but in a critical state after having shot himself in the head. If he does survive the aftermath will hopefully have less guessing to be done.

There's a Wikipedia article about the Jokela school shooting as well, with some bits and pieces of information.

Re:It's the media

[SatanicPuppy]

People always do those types of recriminations afterward; "Oh why did we not heed all these warning signs which are now obvious."

The truth of it is, those warning signs are almost never obvious beforehand, because if they were, someone would have locked the guy up. A lot of the behaviour which is "obvious evidence of psychosis" could have a lot of interpretations if the person never kills anyone.

I hope people are more sane in Finland than over here in the states, because something like that happening here would provoke nothing but unproductive attempts to restrict freedoms, hours and hours of meaningless television commentary, and a host of lawsuits.

Re:It's the media

[sharp-bang]

Interestingly, the news interviewed a friend of his who apparently hadn't noticed anything much more than the kid keeping to himself.

As an acquaintance of another school shooter (Gang Lu) I am not surprised by this observation. No one saw it coming then, either.

Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter.

His death is now being reported.

Re:It's the media

[CeramicNuts]

The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming. Don't they all? These killers know they will get frontpage media coverage. Everyone will learn their grievances. They'll get magazine covers. Everyone will know their names.

This guys website directory linked above looks almost like a press-kit!

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

what i find interesting is that in his mind he was doing the "right thing".

as in, he talks about himself as natural selection incarnate and similar.

basically he convinced himself that he had a right, and even a duty do to what he did...

do anyone see a parallel to terrorists in general, or even the speeches of world leaders before they go to war/intervention?

makes me wonder what humans are able to do if they convince themselves that its the correct thing to do.

hell, you could probably replace "natural selection" above with "divine right" and get just the same effect.

in a way it scares me silly to think about it. thats true mind over matter, right there...

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

so maybe one should take everyone that shows signs in for a psychological evaluation?

one goes to the doctor if one get a runny nose or similar, but going to a psychologist when the world caves in on one is a lot tougher...

hell, one could maybe say that every teen should have a round of evaluation. they get medical checkups for physical issues do they not?

Re:It's the media

[puhuri]

I hope people are more sane in Finland than over here in the states

I hope so. At least teacher's union stated that they do not want metal detectors and guards to schools but rather allocate resources for pre-emptive care. In schools it is very important to access any problems with learing or in mental health early; it is good for those individuals and also economically sound for society.

Re:It's the media

[robot_love]

I think one of the failings of our modern society is that we have determined that God doesn't exist and that we got here through natural selection, but we have not provided a meaningful framework for people to live their lives by. Like it or not, religion provided civilisation with direction and guidance. In fact, you could argue that the most succesful religions were the ones that best described a beneficial social system. However, now that the church has been struck down, where do we go to learn how to act? Where does this man learn that taking natural selection in to his own hands is not necessarily a good idea?

Re:It's the media

[SilentOneNCW]

He died at 22:14. :(

Re:It's the media

[SilentOneNCW]

http://www.bf2player.com/index.php?page=stats&search=1&searchtype=bf2&account=94933011

This is his user account for Battlefield 2.

His name: NaturalSelector89

Re:It's the media

[AP31R0N]

Are you getting a kick out of these replies?

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

and at the same time the religions gave us the crusades and the catholic vs protestant wars (like say spain vs england?).

no system of thought can force us to care for each other, and thats the important thing. sure we see that kid in the corner sitting there for him/her-self. but do we stop and ask if everything is ok? do we sit down and talk to someone we dont know because we can by instinct tell that something isnt right?

Re:It's the media

[jafac]

People always do those types of recriminations afterward; "Oh why did we not heed all these warning signs which are now obvious."

Yes, well, some of us knew better, and we WARNED y'all!
And you didn't listen.

And what's TOTALLY mind boggling, is y'all re-elected the crazy fucker in 2004! What were you people thinking?

Re:It's the media

[jafac]

...They'll get magazine covers. Everyone will know their names.

What I remember most about the Virginia Tech killer from last year, is that he submitted his name in one class as "?", and everyone called him "question-mark-boy."

Re:It's the media

[Shadow99_1]

At least in the US the health care situation makes going to a psychologist often nigh impossible... It's not free, if it is covered by insurance (and quite often it isn't) then the limits are silly like three visits max and they would rather pay to drug you up, If your a kid you often need a parents assistance to get that kind of help and often parents not paying attention to your needs is an issue causing part of the problem...

I know from personal experience where I was clinically depressed through my teen years and into most of my twenties, but I never had the means to get any real help... The only 'help' people wanted to give was getting me to buy into drugs I couldn't afford to take (because they weren't covered by my insurance and where $60+ per bottle that lasts 2 weeks). Even if I could have afforded to pay for the drugs, would that have even done anything except give me a dependency on drugs to live my life...? I sure didn't think so...

Re:It's the media

[hitmark]

in nations where its free, its so under staffed that the waiting listing are, well, insane...

Don't ban YouTube

[dedazo]

No, destroy it. Take off, nuke the whole thing from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

The children. Think of the children, for god's sake.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Anonymous Coward]

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Hatta]

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[torkus]

"I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?"

Because it gets into thighs somehow and is capable of totally ruining the view at the beach.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[theantipop]

And SUVs, and people who drive them, and bluetooth ear pieces, and pedantic assholes. Oh and people who stand in the middle of escalators!

this is fun!

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[fm6]

Why do so many people think that simply regurgitating Simpson's dialog is so fucking funny? It has to be the least creative form of humor imaginable.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[m4ximusprim3]

The internet is pipes. sheesh

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[dedazo]

You're going to have to explain to me which part of that is the Simpsons? I'm a big Family Guy fan but I must confess my exposure to the former is rather limited. Is it the children bit? Because the first part is a classic line from Aliens and the second I like totally made up.

When we're done, I'll buy you a sense of humor. Having to dissect and explain my own attempts at it are really depressing, so I want to avoid it in the future.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[drinkypoo]

Why do so many people think that simply regurgitating Simpson's dialog is so fucking funny? It has to be the least creative form of humor imaginable.

Is it less creative than endlessly complaining about what people do on slashdot? :)

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Jarjarthejedi]

It's far from the least creative...

Just remember, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Anonymous Coward]

I was too, right up until he said "condoms".

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[compro01]

what episode was that from? i must've missed that one.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[fm6]

OK, you're not quoting the Simpsons, you're just using jokes that we've all heard before.

I agree that it's lame to expect people to dissect their own jokes. I don't recall asking you to.

Getting tired of hearing the sames jokes over and over hardly indicates a missing sense of humor. Rather the opposite, I think. I actually laughed at the "think of the children!" line the first time I heard it — on the Simpsons.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[hamburger lady]

OK, you're not quoting the Simpsons, you're just using jokes that we've all heard before.

where have you heard that second bit before? (the paragraph right after the 'aliens' line)

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[fm6]

That's the one where a bear is found wandering in Springfield and everybody storms Mayor Quimby's office demanding that he Do Something about the bear problem. ("Think of the children!") So he institutes an expensive helicopter-borne Bear Patrol, which makes everybody happy — until they get their tax bills. So their storm the office again, demanding that he Do Something about high taxes. ("Think of the children!") Funny because it's sadly true.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[servognome]

Because it gets into thighs somehow and is capable of totally ruining the view at the beach.

Only if you don't wash it off properly when you're done.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[dedazo]

I'm torn between telling you to FOAD and carrying on this exciting conversation in the hope of discovering what other types of humor I'm not supposed to use when you're around.

So why don't you just foe me and we'll call it a day.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[lottameez]

Stop! He had me at "Hello Kitty"

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[compro01]

oh. i though you were refering to the "ban it all" stuff. i didn't even notice the helen lovejoy quote.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[darthflo]

You had me at people and lost me at "who stand in the middle of escalators!". Let's do this!

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Conanymous Award]

"OK, you're not quoting the Simpsons, you're just using jokes that we've all heard before."

In Soviet Russia, the jokes hear YOU! Or: I, for one, welcome our already-heard joke overlords.

Sorry...

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[fm6]

Dude, you have the fundamental right to make any joke you want. I have the fundamental right to point out that the joke is lame.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[fm6]

What really bugs me (bugs me, get it?) is that nobody quotes the best joke from that same episode: "Freedom! Horrible, horrible freedom!"

Shut down YouTube

[a_nonamiss]

Clearly YouTube is at fault here. I mean, people aren't responsible for their own actions, so we need to blame someone. I hope the people at YouTube can sleep at night...

/sarcasm

Re:Shut down YouTube

[ShiningSomething]

Clearly, it is not YouTube but the government, who should be actively patrolling the videos posted by angsty teenagers promising to take their revenge on the world. I mean, how many can their be? Right?

Re:Shut down YouTube

[phobos13013]

I'm assuming this is sarcasm. I'm only upset with YouTube for taking down the clips! Why do such a thing? This is important information and evidence and yet, censored! Why?

Re:Shut down YouTube

[physicsboy500]

What's sad is the mainstream media will probably make it sound like Youtube's fault (or at least suggest it) even though Youtube simply acted as an outlet for a deranged individual.

I personally think it's great that Youtube is around and can potentially help prevent incidents exactly like this one.

Let us postulate what would have happened in a world without Youtube: Generally people like this are reaching for some sort of attention from a world that has "turned its back on them." They would go through the same practicing and preparing routine similar to what the article describes in an effort to gain attention. Most likely he would have eventually carried through with the plan regardless. With an entire video library at public disposal, a wider chance is given that someone will notice something out of the ordinary and report it.

It is terrible that tragedies like this happen, but we are becoming more aware of the "warning signs" and I think sites like Youtube will help in picking up on these.

Re:Shut down YouTube

[Anonymous Coward]

You assume it was sarcasm, eh? Was it the "/sarcasm" pseudo-tag that tipped you off?

Re:Shut down YouTube

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I don't think anyone would rationally place the blame on YouTube. The blame would more fall to the school, his peers, and his parents for nurturing/failing to deter violent behaviour. The rational for blaming third parties is usually along the lines of "they provided the tools, so therefore they are responsible". YouTube was just an outlet for him to make public his plans and intentions, which would be a good thing in most people's books. They provided no tools that helped him in any tangible, specific way.

Before you start making fun of the "think of the children" crowd, you may want to first get to know thy enemy. They are not just the opposite of whatever you believe in.

Real reason for his name...

[mweather]

Sturmgeist is a Norwegian metal band.

Re:Real reason for his name...

[mrdarreng]

Sturmgeist is also a Black metal / thrash metal band. For those not familiar with your stereotypical black metal fans let me advise you that there are two kinds (these are your stereotypical listeners, not all).

Type 1. Goths people, who do it for the image (Cradle of Filth fans).
Type 2. Severely disturbed people who exhibit dangerous tendencies. Read the story about Mayhem (specifically Dead and Euronymous) and you'll get a clear understanding.

Re:Real reason for his name...

[darth_fishy]

Super utter nitpick but:

Black Metal/Death Metal listeners are usually:

Type 1. Black Metal/Death Metal Fans(Cradle of Filth fans)

-------

Goth listeners are usually:

Type 1. Goths (Sisters of Mercy, The Cure etc. fans)


While goths might also listen to death metal thats not why they're called goths. Its more becuase they listen to music called, you guessed it, Goth! :)

Re:Real reason for his name...

[Anonymous Coward]

Statement taken from the band's myspace page:

Today an 18-year old man shot seven people in a high school massacre in Tuusula, Finland. The killer referred to himself as "Sturmgeist89" on YouTube. Sturmgeist is not only the name of my band, but also of a character in the video game "Medal of Honor". As of yet, it is not established wherefrom the murderer took the name. Understandably, journalists keep calling me, eager to prove a link between my band and the massacre. However, as an artist, I can neither control the actions of my fans nor be held responsible for them.

It is my firm conviction that if somebody wishes to go down as the cause of a massacre like that in Tuusula, explanations beyond music must be sought. In an interview with the Oslo-based newspaper Dagbladet today I argue that although extreme metal as a genre deals with topics such as isolation, misanthropy and despair, blaming the musicians is both wrong and unfair. It is people that kill people. Not music.

Extreme metal has a potential both for social comment and personal katharsis, given its dealing with problems ordinarily shunned by mainstream society: suicide, madness, pollution, violence, warfare and drug abuse all occur regularly in extreme metal lyrics, mostly subject to critical scrutiny.

I do recall how lonely and isolated I felt as a teenager, how strong an impact music had on my life. Extreme metal helped me channel my aggression in a constructive way; where Slayer's album "Seasons in the Abyss" described the psychology of a mass murderer, Cannibal Corpse's "The Bleeding" gave graphic accounts of extreme violence. Even though I adored both albums, I did not go out and kill people.

Knowing the boundary between fiction and reality was always a prerequisite for dealing with dark matters in music, literature, film and video games. It seems obvious that the Tuusula murderer was ignorant about this boundary.

The lyrics of Sturmgeist do contain topics both sinister and martial. Topics such as WWI & WWII ("Triumph", "Enigma"), the war in Iraq ("Shock & Awe", "Iron Hammer"), Viking battle ("Army of Odin"), a victim exerting revenge on his tormentor ("Ruger"). I readily admit it. Saying anything else would not only be a blatant lie; worse, it would be betraying the music I love and believe in.

I am most shocked by the tragic event in Finland, and mourn the victims of the crime. I believe that the victims could have been alive today, if youngsters on the edge were given more attention by the proper instances. I extend my compassion and my condolences to the families of the deceased.

Cornelius von Jackhelln / Sturmgeist

Berlin, November 7th, 2007 Official Sturmgeist Myspace

finally off the firehose

[Bazards]

Articles on this have been on the firehose all day, one finally made it through.

Re:finally off the firehose

[Anonymous Coward]

Articles on this have been on the firehose all day, one finally made it through. Thanks for the firehose commentary. I knew something was missing; now Slashdot is complete.

How freedom is lost

[riceboy50]

How else could career politicians stay in power other than to appease the masses with knee-jerk measures that strip a small piece of freedom away? Who needs the long-term big picture when there are kids dying today?

Re:How freedom is lost

[palantir0]

Yeah, think V here...as in the movie. FUD with capital F causing supposed sane people believing in freedom to give them up for the fallacy of security. Perceived security isn't security is delusion. Hold freedom tightly because its a bitch to get it back! Cheers

Re:How freedom is lost

[sqrt(2)]

When the PATRIOT act was passed I said if an attack of this magnitude (9/11) every 50 years is the price of liberty it's still worth it.

And that may sounds selfish if you know someone who died on 9/11 but I have to live in the US too, so I have just as much chance of dying as anyone. People die from guns; worth it for the freedom to own guns. People die from drugs; worth it to have the freedom to control your own body. People die from terrorist attacks; worth it to have freedom and privacy. The only way you can win against terrorism is by not fighting it and LIVING FREE. Don't take stupid risks, but by far the bigger danger is from over correcting and NOT from doing too little. This is not something people like to hear, and so we get stories like this one and the politicians take away our guns, our drugs, our privacy and we say it's worth it to protect ourselves. I fear that the sun will rise on a day when a generation of Americans wakes up and finds that they no longer have any freedoms left to give.

Re:How freedom is lost

[biovoid]

FUD with capital F

Dude. FUD already has a capital F.

Re:How freedom is lost

[darthflo]

People die from guns; worth it for the freedom to own guns.

Unfortunately, the group of people who tend to die from guns don't correlate too much to the group of people who tend to own guns (okay, in "da hood" they may, but looking at domestic violence and such, they usually don't).

People die from drugs; worth it to have the freedom to control your own body.

This one's really, really hard to judge. On one hand, I totally agree one (of full age) should be able to take any drug he wants to, if said drug isn't known to directly cause sicknesses infecting other people. On the other hand, Think of the Children. They'll foot the bill for the years upon years of rehab and medical care a victim of drugs may have to go through. Think of 'em again, 'cause they may, just like anybody else, find themselves dead or crippled after a car crash with a drugged (and, of course, unhurt) moron.
Full ack on freedom vs. terrorism though. The T word's hugely overrated.

Re:How freedom is lost

[jockeys]

Well spoken.

Re:How freedom is lost

[sqrt(2)]

Taking away guns isn't going to solve a violence problem. You'll have stabbings, beatings, or poisonings instead. Then there's also going to be the people who just buy guns illegally. Now the honest law abiding citizen has no way to defend himself. If every adult was armed and properly trained, and everyone knew it, there'd be less crime. You could probably cut down on law enforcement spending too. I'd rather put my trust in the hands of other citizens than the state when it comes to protection.

Driving under the influence isn't primarily a drug problem, it's a responsibility problem, and you can't legislate that. You can get wasted on any number of legal or legally prescribed drugs, get behind the wheel and kill someone. The drugs are not to blame, the driver is. I also do not believe that we would see a very high increase in drug use if we decriminalized narcotics and classified addicts as what they are; SICK PEOPLE who need help. We might end up footing the bill for their rehab, but that's better (and probably cheaper) than footing the bill for their incarceration. Who knows, you might even turn someone of them back into productive members of society, there is a ZERO chance of that happening if they're left to rot in a cell for their whole lives for what was primarily a victimless crime.

Re:How freedom is lost

[darthflo]

If every adult was armed and properly trained

Consider e.g. switzerland's situation. Every male citizen is drafted and equipped with an assault rifle and (up until pretty recently, I think) ammunition (to be used only on military command). While any news related to the use of those rifles are quite rare, the huge majority seems to deal with domestic conflicts. Usually lethal for at least one, often all members of the family.

if we decriminalized narcotics and classified addicts as what they are

I'm all for that. IMO, the addict's not the criminal; his dealer is. There's just one problem: The line between legal and illegal needs to be drawn somewhere. Where would that be? Marijuana? LSD/Speed? Cocaine? Heroin? Some drugs may turn you into an addict on first contact - how would should those be treated? Legality of drugs is a tough fucking question and actually I'm happy not to have to answer it. (But if I had to, I'd probably go for "It's your body, do whatever the intercourse you want to it".)

Re:How freedom is lost

[sqrt(2)]

And the dad could snap and kill his whole family with a claw hammer as they slept. There's really nothing you can do about either situation. Would you rather have a shootout, or a massacre?

Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

[Anonymous Coward]

His spirit is alive and lives among us!

Re:Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

[Max Romantschuk]

Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

His spirit is alive and lives among us!

And the sad thing is that there's a 50-50 chance this wasn't just a stupid teen trolling, but someone actually believing in Nazi ideology who wrote that...

Re:Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

[MightyMartian]

I've seen enough anti-Semitic monsters on Usenet that I don't take anything for granted. These people do exist, and do use the Internet to get their lies and venom out there. Matt Giwer is probably one of the most infamous, and one that I've crossed paths with a few times.

Re:Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!

[Anonymous Coward]

And the sad thing is that there's a 50-50 chance this wasn't just a stupid teen trolling, but someone actually believing in Nazi ideology who wrote that... One less now.

Psychological state of mind and applicable laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's to say he's not insane? Do those tricks work outside of the U.S.? (I realize full well that not all of those cases are "tricks," but I've seen enough to not buy into it for the majority of folks in the U.S.)

Fart

[Anonymous Coward]

I farted and it came out of my butt.

Re:Fart

[Anonymous Coward]

Was this before of after the shooting? And is it on JewTube?

Now go back to your xbox.

Crazy Idea

[torkus]

Give everyone guns. Educate them about their use.

Remove 90% of the police force. Save billions.

Next time some idiot points his AK-47 at a crowd he'll enjoy being shot down by a few people in the crowd before he gets very far.

In fact, would you try to rob a gas station or convinience store if you knew the clerk was armed and, probably, most of the people shopping in there?

Re:Crazy Idea

[BewireNomali]

M.A.D. It worked for your superpowers. Now let's make it work for you.

Re:Crazy Idea

[wattrlz]

Just be sure everybody uses hollowpoints. Over penetration is a bitch.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Nimey]

And lower-powered rounds. No need for (since it's Finland) 7.62x54R when x39 or x25 will do.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats not what your mum says....sorry couldn't help it it just kinda exploded out of my mind and through the keyboard.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Cornflake917]

That's not a crazy idea, that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard.

Yes, lets give children guns, look at how well thats working out for them in African countries in civil war.

Re:Crazy Idea

[ShiningSomething]

If you had RTFA, you would have seen that hunting is popular in Finland, and out of five million total population there are two million guns in circulation. Legal guns, that is. They are educated. Also, this was nothing like an AK-47. You could be being sarcastic, but unfortunately I doubt it. So get your facts straight.

Re:Crazy Idea

[PlantPerson]

That's not a good idea, and this is why:
1. Just because everyone has guns and is theoretically "educated about their use," that doesn't mean all of them are good shots. One man with a gun will cause less destruction than if there's one man with a gun and sixty people trying to shoot him. That many guns going off would probably lead to more causualties, not fewer.

2. When the police arrive on the scene, they will see many people with guns. How will they tell which one is the maniac and which are the innocent people trying to protect themselves? When there's only one guy with a gun, the police can tell instantly which one is the dangerous one.

Re:Crazy Idea

[doggod]

As the bumper sticker says, "An armed society is a polite society."

Re:Crazy Idea

[jandoedel]

would you want to HAVE a convenience store if you knew most of your customers had guns?

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, would you try to rob a gas station or convinience store if you knew the clerk was armed and, probably, most of the people shopping in there? Sure. Wait until the store is empty, then just shoot the clerk before he has time to react.

This is what escalation does: if no-one has a weapon, you can threaten them with a knife. If everybody has a knife, you can threaten them with a gun. If everybody has a gun, you don't threaten them, you kill them before they can get you.

In all of these scenarios the unscrupulous win, but the outcome from the POV of the victim is quite different.

Re:Crazy Idea

[spiffmastercow]

Here's the problem... Would I try to rob a gas station if I knew the clerk was armed? No. But I wouldn't try to rob the gas station anyway.

Would a strung out tweaker who's been up for 12 days try to rob a gas station, knowing the clerk was armed? Quite possibly, and would've just made it easier for him to obtain a weapon, and know how to use it.

Furthermore, what if you THOUGHT someone was about to rob the gas station, when they were only pulling out their gun-shaped novelty lighter? Would you shoot that person?

It's a nice argument in theory.. But it assumes that people 1.) are rational, and 2.) don't mistake others' intentions.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Kazrath]

I actually agree with your sentiment. The problem with societies when it comes to arms is the mixed opinions on having arms. If either extreme ever happened the amount of violent crime would drop siginifcantly. Basically if 100% of people had guns or 100% of people did not have guns the effect would be basically the same.

The problem is 100% of people having handguns is more likely to happen as you cannot take guns away from people who illegal posses them.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Next time some idiot points his AK-47 at a crowd he'll enjoy being shot down by a few people in the crowd before he gets very far.

I don't know what kind of place you live in, but where I live having someone try to gun down a crowd with an AK-47 is a very rare occurance. It's never happened to me. I don't even know anyone who has had that happen to them.

In fact, would you try to rob a gas station or convenience store...

I've never been present at an armed robbery of a gas station or a convenience store either. When I go into a gas station or a convenience store I do tend to be on the look out for rude people or people who are likely to escalate a minor incident into a major confrontation but armed robbery is way down the list of things I worry about.

Give everyone guns. Educate them about their use.

What I do see on a regular basis is people getting sufficiently angry with each other that if guns were available then the guns would have been used.

It would be the wild west all over again: "Well, yer honer, he moved his hand toward his gun." "Yeah? Well, he actually put hi hand on his gun." "Yeah? Well, he actually pulled his gun out of its holster" "Yeah? Well, he actually pointed his gun at me." "Yeah? Well, he actually pulled the trigger first." You would end up with a bizarre situation where a person could be shot just for removing their gun from their holster.

Ultimately, we have to accept that the cure can be worse than the disease. Sure, it's tragic when some kid does a school shooting - but it would also be tragic if minor misunderstandings were to escalate on a regular basis into shoot-outs between generally decent people.

Remove 90% of the police force.

In parts of the world (or back in the days of the wild west) where there is no police force then having everyone carry their own guns makes some kind of sense. On the other hand, when there is the option of a police force then the downsides of having everyone carry guns outweighs the upsides.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like Gangs! They all have guns, and never shoot each other! :)

Re:Crazy Idea

[Oligonicella]

Incorrect.

1. One man with a gun will shoot until people brave enough can close and overpower him. There are precious few people of that nature, obviously, borne out by the story. The sixty people will be aiming at the one man and funneling their shots into a small space. He will be swiss-cheesed in short order.

2. The many survivors will all point to the puddle of bullet ridden excrement and tell the police who started the crap. Police rarely arrive on the scene until after violence has abated. In those instances when they do arrive on time, here in the US, they are pretty good at telling which ones are shooting at the bad guys, whether you believe that or not.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Guppy06]

"Give everyone guns. Educate them about their use."

Here in the United States, practically everyone has a car, and somewhere over 99% of those have obtained a license ostensibly proving that they've been educated in their use. And yet the road is still full of people acting like idiots and jeopardizing both their own lives as well as those around them (case in point).

Do you really want to give those people guns?

"Next time some idiot points his AK-47 at a crowd"

He'll be guaranteed to have access to a firearm in your fantasy, resulting in more deaths than may have occurred otherwise. Your fantasy is only a net benefit if there is already unrestricted access to firearms, if the potential shooter is guaranteed access to a weapon.

"In fact, would you try to rob a gas station or convinience store if you knew the clerk was armed and, probably, most of the people shopping in there?"

You're equating "Has a firearm" with "Is willing to get involved in a gunfight." Even in the instances where a gun was lawfully used in self defense, how often does the other person also have a gun?

Besides, if you're going to rob a store with a gun, your is (obviously) already drawn, meaning that the store clerk (or whoever else has a gun on them) is at a disadvantage, having to first draw and aim their weapon before you get off a shot. And there's nothing like a sudden, fast movement to get the attention of a nervous, jittery robber.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Oligonicella]

"Quite possibly, and would've just made it easier for him to obtain a weapon, and know how to use it."

That sentence doesn't make any sense. An armed clerk would make it easier for him to obtain a weapon how? Not presuming, as you might be that he would of course kill the clerk. It also has no bearing whatsoever on his knowing how to use a weapon.

No. The vast majority of gun owners do not act in that manner and in all probablilty would recognize the novelty item or at least hold the draw on him until he dropped it. In real life situations, not your vested action scenario, people do not shoot first and ask later. Quite the opposite.

And you assume, 1) people are irrational and 2) they will screw up. Neither extreme is accurate, but stats point toward my view instead of yours. We know the armed robber is violent and has no concern for other's welfare. One might ask why you would wish that only he be armed?

Re:Crazy Idea

[compro01]

actually, IIRC, Finland is the fairly gun-happy (53 firearms per 100 people, though they include flare guns in that (burning magnesium + human flesh = ?)).

FTR, i believe the US has 90 per 100 people.

Re:Crazy Idea

[ScrewMaster]

Ah, I know you were trying to be funny but ... M.A.D. did work.

But this isn't really a MAD situation. It's an issue of whether or not people can reliably depend upon law enforcement for prevention of these kinds of crimes. It's not possible, of course, and any honest cop will tell you that about all he can do is pick up the pieces afterward and try to halt further carnage. The only deterrent that might affect someone who is planning a massacre is the sure knowledge that he won't get very far, whereas in an unarmed society, he can go pretty much as far as he likes. One presumes that there might be someone so off-his-rocker that he doesn't care about the fact he'll be facing deadly force the second he starts his rampage. And that's okay ... odds are he won't last very long anyway.

Re:Crazy Idea

[gay358]

It is true that Finland has quite large number of guns (I think part of it is explained by large number of rifles used for hunting), but I think it is at least a bit misleading to call Finland gun happy.

For example, I think carrying a gun in everyday life is a big no-no and probably in most cases even illegal. Practically only polimen are allowed to carry a gun with them. And if you use a weapon for self defence situation, you will most likely receive heavy sentence even if you were in danger and you don't even hit anybody with the bullet.

I think most of the guns are at least somewhat hidden. Because of that most Finns think that guns are pretty rare in Finland even though according to statistics there seems to be quite many guns.

Re:Crazy Idea

[GiMP]

Here in the United States, practically everyone has a car, and somewhere over 99% of those have obtained a license ostensibly proving that they've been educated in their use. And yet the road is still full of people acting like idiots and jeopardizing both their own lives as well as those around them

Where are your statistics coming from? Nationally, 13% of fatal accidents are caused by unlicensed drivers. This is why illegal aliens should be given a way to obtain a driver's license without the fear of deportation. Second, who said that a the license is ostensibly proving that they've been educated in the operation of a motor vehicle? Compared to some other nations, the licensing requirements in the USA are very low. The by-product of a culture that practically requires every resident to operate a vehicle.

This culture guarantees that people that would prefer not to drive, or feel uncomfortable driving, must get behind the wheel anyway.

Re:Crazy Idea

[WiPEOUT]

That's a poor analogy. The reason MAD was so frightening and why the world has been working towards reducing the threat level is because in the event of MAD, life on Earth as we know it would end.

In the event of a crazy person with a gun going on a shooting spree, he might kill a few people before getting shot down and then the violence would be over and the rest of the world gets on with their lives, since our infrastructure has not been significantly affected.

That's not to say having everyone walk about armed is a good idea. :)

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

here in the US, they are pretty good at telling which ones are shooting at the bad guys

Let me guess, they know it by the color of the skin, right?

Re:Crazy Idea

[uucp2]

Guns don't kill people. NRA kills people.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically if 100% of people had guns or 100% of people did not have guns the effect would be basically the same.

So if you attended a class or workplace, you'd feel as safe if every colleague in the room had a gun as you would if none of them had a gun? Yeah, right...

The problem is 100% of people having handguns is more likely to happen as you cannot take guns away from people who illegal posses them.

Problem with this is that the Bad Guys always have the upper hand. They are more desparate, more fucked up, less rational, more opportunistic, and they strike first. More often than not you simply can't defend against that, no matter how many hypothetical fantasies you make up where guns save the day and everyone goes home happy. 100% gun carrying would simply mean more aggressive crime, more shots fired, and more wounding/maiming/death. Plus, having such high availability of guns would mean more suicide and more chance a gun will be used in disputes.

More guns = more cunts shooting people. And yes, we're all cunts now and then.

Re:Crazy Idea

[spiffmastercow]

Okay, first of all, it would be easier for him to obtain it because EVERYONE would be armed and would be trained in firing a weapon. That includes criminals. To this you'll likely respond something to the extent of "but we would only train non-criminals in the use of guns", to which I would respond "nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime. Of course, that previously non-criminal individual who just because a criminal would already have advance training in the use of firearms."

And as for my assumptions.. Okay, lets see a couple of examples of what would happen if I was wrong. So for the sake of argument:

1.) People are rational. This means that wars are only fought in self defense, people believe in God because they have irrefutable proof, and television commercials only bring awareness to the best products, and this is why people buy them (rather than being bombarded by them and merely picking these items out of familiarity).

2.) People do not screw up. Ever. Crimes are never committed because police always arrive just in time (of course, the criminal also gets away with the loot because he can't screw up either), every student gets a 4.0 GPA, and there are no security flaws in Windows (or Linux, or FreeBSD, or OSX, etc.)

Seriously, a large portion of people are not rational, and I doubt there's a person alive who has never screwed up on something.

The last part is a straw man, painting me as one who wishes for only criminals to be armed. Nice.

Look, I used to subscribe to the same viewpoint on the subject. It seems great, until you remember that the general populace is composed primarily of dumbasses who do not act responsibly. It's the same reason that communism fails when attempted on any large scale. Much like a chain being only as strong as its weakest link, a completely armed society is only as safe as its stupidest members decide to make it (and a communist society is only as fair as its greediest members). Not to mention all of the people who would kill someone and then claim they were attacked. After all, the other guy ALWAYS has a gun, so the claim of self-defense becomes ubiquitously reliable when there's no witnesses around.

Oh, and having a gun doesn't necessarily protect you from a criminal with a gun. Just ask Dick Chaney's hunting partner.

Re:Crazy Idea

[insomnyuk]

PROTIP: Africa != Finland

I think arming people with educations and good families are just as important as physical defense tools.

But yes, everyone should own tactical nuclear weapons.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Kjella]

Most of the reason MAD worked was that early warning systems meant both sides would get their missiles off obliterating each other. I doubt you can ensure the shooter always get a bullet in return. Also, there would hardly be much confusion about who the perp is. Now if you got ten guys with a gun, and you just see one shooting another. Is he the shooter? Did he just shoot the shooter? Does that guy aiming at you think you're the shooter? If one person misjudge that, and kills another vigilante? Or just shoots in that direction, so that person starts shooting back? Who'll side with who thinking it's the other guy that's the shooter? Having plenty guns at a scene is only good if you know who to point them at, and they don't run around with big "bad guy" signs...

Re:Crazy Idea

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

One man with a gun will cause less destruction than if there's one man with a gun and sixty people trying to shoot him.

Really, what is your source for this opinion? I imagine it is just the opposite.

That many guns going off would probably lead to more causualties, not fewer.

So you think people shooting at a target are more likely to hit some other, person than their target. I think that is bunk.

When the police arrive on the scene, they will see many people with guns. How will they tell which one is the maniac and which are the innocent people trying to protect themselves? When there's only one guy with a gun, the police can tell instantly which one is the dangerous one.

But they can't tell now. Statistically speaking, the police are over three times as likely to misidentify a violent criminal and shoot the wrong person, as an armed citizen who is on the scene. Cops usually show up late to these things and did not see what happened. There are plenty of environments where a large percentage of people are armed and it tends to have exactly the opposite affect from what you're arguing.

Re:Crazy Idea

[BlackSmithNZ]

You think this guy was worried about the possibility of being shot? He shot _himself_ in the head. ..and about that give everybody a gun thing.. you want to give people like this guns, but not allow a 17 year old to have sex or buy alcohol or vote, because they are not responsible enough?

thanks, but I live in a country with decent gun control laws and despite having lots of guns and unarmed police, have not had any school shootings. I like that I send my kids to school & don't have to worry about them being shot.

Try it sometime.

Re:Crazy Idea

[BobMcD]

I like Ron Paul's answer to this - the issue of protection is the responsibility of those in charge of the situation. School shootings need to be dealt with by school security. Airlines need airline security. And so on.

Take an armored car. There's what, $100,000 dollars inside? The thing is trussed up like Fort Knox, complete with at least two armed guards. To the best of my knowledge few have been accidentally harmed by armored cars.

Compare that to a school. What's the value of those kid's lives? Why not have any guards for those? Why not let each school get together with their district and decide whether or not it is appropriate?

Because we're waiting on the government to do it, of course.

Re:Crazy Idea

[PMBjornerud]

That's a poor analogy. Not just a poor analogy. Meaningless and utterly irellevant to the post he replied to. I don't understand why GB was modded insightful.

The guy suicided. He would not worry about M.A.D. He enforced it on his own.

On topic: I am certain we would have fewer school shootings if everyone was armed at all times. However, I'm worried we would also have so many "drunk people picking a fight and escalating for no good reason" shootings that it would not be worth it.

Re:Crazy Idea

[Upphew]

I think most of the guns are at least somewhat hidden. Because of that most Finns think that guns are pretty rare in Finland even though according to statistics there seems to be quite many guns. I don't think guns are hidden, its just that they must be stored in locked place and in many occasions that means some sort of safe or locker. And safe's door tends to get in line of sight ;)

Re:Crazy Idea

[fmoliveira]

Just shoot the one with a red circle/square around him.

Re:Crazy Idea

[wattrlz]

That's why they have the bulletproof glass.Just pay the premium for the one-way stuff and you're all good.

Re:Crazy Idea

[fa_pa]

Compare that to a school. What's the value of those kid's lives? Why not have any guards for those? Why not let each school get together with their district and decide whether or not it is appropriate?
Because we are talking about schools and not fucking prisons? Also how good is airport security? There are lots of cases where people got weapons on plains even though there is so much security. So why should school security be any better?

Re:Crazy Idea

[ultranova]

M.A.D. It worked for your superpowers. Now let's make it work for you.

Mutually Assured Destruction prevented said destruction because all the participants wished to live. It doesn't help any when one of the participants is intending to blow his own brains out at the end. Suicidal lunatics aren't stopped by death threats.

Re:Crazy Idea

[ultranova]

Compare that to a school. What's the value of those kid's lives? Why not have any guards for those? Why not let each school get together with their district and decide whether or not it is appropriate?

Because we're waiting on the government to do it, of course.

Actually, no. The real answer is: because the people have considered and decided that a few kids getting killed every now and then is not worth the cost of hiring guards at every school, especially enough guards (2 per room) to actually guarantee security against a preplanned suicide shooting.

The value of those kid's lives is less than the value of the extra tax needed, at least for those who would need to pay that tax. Cold but true.

Blame this failing society

[Anonymous Coward]

Society sucks. Kids know they're going to grow up to be corporate serfs, the people who succeed are scumbags, oligarchies rule our governments, every other city block is ghetto, the earth is polluted and overpopulated with stupid people, jobs are boring, technology generally fails, and so on.

Sometimes they opt out. Suicide is the leading killer of youth. Sometimes you get a smart one who fights back by taking out whatever idiots he can reach. I have empathy for this young man, and possibly for his victims, but blaming him for this is as stupid as blaming YouTube or gun manufacturers. Our society is failing and most of you are in denial.

Finland and the Nazis

[Dynamoo]

I'll start off by saying that I work with quite a lot of Finns and they're a great bunch of people who I have a great respect for.

However, Finland has a unique relationship with Nazism that Americans and other Europeans don't really know much about. The history of Finland during the Second World War is quite different from any other country. To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland, because historically Finland's greatest struggle has always been with Russia.. and to that extent, Germany was a natural ally during WW2.

The dichotomy is that the Finns are a democratic and fair-minded people, and the Nazis were exactly the opposite. But as the famous saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - and this is precisely what happened during the war.

I'm not saying that Finns are fascists, and I'm not even saying that *many* Finns are fascists, but what I am saying is that perhaps Finland is the *only* state that at least partly owes its ongoing independence to co-operation with the Nazis. That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying that Finns are fascists, and I'm not even saying that *many* Finns are fascists, but what I am saying is that perhaps Finland is the *only* state that at least partly owes its ongoing independence to co-operation with the Nazis. That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. Yeah, and that also explains why there are no people with Nazi sympathies in countries that didn't co-operate with the Nazis, like USA and Russia and so on.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[gay358]

I think it is quite unlike that the alliance between Finland and nazi Germany during II world war had anything to do with this guys interests, although that shooter disliked communists (but on the other hand he said he liked Stalin). Nowadays that alliance is not much more than just part of history. Btw, one interesting detail in this alliance with nazi Germany is that also Finnish jews were fighting against Soviet union -- together with German nazi soldiers.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

Nazism is so blown out of proportion, and so 50+ years ago. Is it a threat to anyone? Only in the movies and on the horror-show-tv-news. Does anyone take it seriously? No, we all either laugh or gasp in disgust. Is it used as an excuse to conduct witch hunts? Definitely. Does nazism belong in the classroom? No more than Maoism, Communism, Imperialism, Capitalism, Z.. err.. Zwinglianism and every other freakin' -ism that, taken to its radical extreme, is nuts.

How many people have died at the hands of graffiti artists, skinheads, bikies, people with tattoos, long haird louts, etc? No more than at any other time and age.

Who's the real enemy? Some mixed up teenager who is into heavy metal and who wasn't properly looked after by his parents or society? You're much more likely to have your child killed on the battlefield or by a drunk driver, incompetent doctor, drug dealler, or by your own negligence.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[gay358]

One interesting detail is that the shooter seemed to be at least somewhat contraditory in his writings. He had some nazi symphaties, but on the other hand he also said that he is against racism.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[tietokone-olmi]

Please note that Finland also had to fight the Germans after Finland made separate peace with the USSR at the end of the Continuation War. This one was known as the Lapland War, and it was mostly fought by teenagers since the treaty with the USSR somehow managed to disqualify anyone experienced from being in the army for real.

Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers, just like an overt Stalinist would be (though perhaps a bit less than the same Stalinist in today's Russia).

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard]

There is nothing secret about it -- it's basic Finnish history, and of course still a bit of a bone of contention among historians and even regular people whether joining Nazi Germany in Barbarossa was such a bright move. Personally I think there was not much choice -- had we just sat there on our hands, the possibility is high that Stalin would have attacked again after Winter War anyway, so some sort of pre-emption was logical when Germany was going strong. I probably would have made the same choice at that time of history. Finland has also always had a strong bond to Germany -- especially militarily -- that goes all the way back to our Civil War when the whites got training from Germany to suppress the communist rebellion. Essentially the officers of our WW2 were probably German-trained for a significant part.

This was a marriage of convenience, and it must be pointed out that for example Finland never joined Germany in their ethnic cleansing plans. We actually had a Jewish synagogue out there at the front -- fighting against the Soviets! Marshall Mannerheim, the country's lead figure at the time and a cosmopolitan gentleman and officer from the Czar's army originally, was personally disgusted by Hitler, whom he considered to be a barbarian. Yes, we have German ties and being made to march to Siberia by Stalin was the worse option. I would strongly disagree with your idea that we might have had much Fascist sympathies during the time -- our extreme right wing was suppressed during the 20s and 30s right after the extreme left wing was suppressed after Civil War. We remained remarkably centrist and democratic throughout the whole ordeal.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[goga_russian]

i think you dont have all the information :)
ask yourself this - why was Finland (I Love Pia Kaamos) not occupied after WWII as were most of the baltic states and europe?

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Goaway]

Well, he talks about social darwinism and how he's going to do the work of evolution by killing the failures...

And then he killed himself.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[vertinox]

(I Love Pia Kaamos)

Small world. Personally I sold Pia my old car for $200 bucks a few years ago and dated a friend of a friend of hers.
She moved out to California last I heard, doing modeling.

But more to on topic, Finland stayed independent by making a deal with the Soviets to kick the Germans out after being able to hold the Soviets off for a while during 1944. So, allies turned enemies and Stalin didn't really seem that interested in infiltrating Finland after the war.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

I find your comment deeply disturbing, even more so when you claim to be a democrat. Apart from all humanistic considerations (that seem foreign to your thinking anyway), are you even aware that had Germany won that war, there would be no Finland today? As to Mr. Mannerheim, he doesn't sound very disgusted in this private audio recording from Hitler's surprise visit to his 75th birthday.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Jeff DeMaagd]

There are many times in history where it's a "rock and a hard place" type of deal. Here, they may have had to choose between collaborating with evil people or getting overrun by other evil people, though it may very well be the same effect either way. In the end, it happened to be the gamble that worked. I think it might seem like a well-kept secret, but it's probably that the people that examined it decided that it's not actually as big if a deal as it would seem like if taken out of context, and it's obscure enough that sensationalist media outlets prone to taking things out of context wouldn't come across this information.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[mangu]

To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland

You are wrong. I have a good knowledge of this, because my granduncle was the prime minister of Finland during WWII and I heard this story from my parents who saw it firsthand. Finland was at war with Russia, when the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allies.

At that time, Churchill himself praised Finland as the savior of the world: "Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril - Finland shows what free men can do. The service rendered by Finland to mankind is magnificent. They have exposed, for all the world to see, the military incapacity of the Red Army and of the Red Air Force. Many illusions about Soviet Russia have been dispelled in these few fierce weeks of fighting in the Arctic Circle. Everyone can see how Communism rots the soul of a nation; how it makes it abject and hungry in peace, and proves it base and abominable in war. We cannot tell what the fate of Finland may be, but no more mournful spectacle could be presented to what is left to civilized mankind than that this splendid Northern race should be at last worn down and reduced to servitude worse than death by the dull brutish force of overwhelming numbers. If the light of freedom which still burns so brightly in the frozen North should be finally quenched, it might well herald a return to the Dark Ages, when every vestige of human progress during two thousand years would be engulfed."

Unfortunately for Finland, a popular but rather imbecile president declared war against Russia after Hitler started Operation Barbarossa.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

Nazism is so blown out of proportion, and so 50+ years ago. Is it a threat to anyone? Only in the movies and on the horror-show-tv-news. Does anyone take it seriously? No, we all either laugh or gasp in disgust. Is it used as an excuse to conduct witch hunts? Definitely. Does nazism belong in the classroom? No more than Maoism, Communism, Imperialism, Capitalism, Z.. err.. Zwinglianism and every other freakin' -ism that, taken to its radical extreme, is nuts.

How many people have died at the hands of graffiti artists, skinheads, bikies, people with tattoos, long haird louts, etc? No more than at any other time and age.

Who's the real enemy? Some mixed up teenager who is into heavy metal and who wasn't properly looked after by his parents or society? You're much more likely to have your child killed on the battlefield or by a drunk driver, incompetent doctor, drug dealler, or by your own negligence. Right, let's pretend nothing bad every happens, *BAM* all our troubled youth problems go away.

Pacifism works, AFTER every extremist, sociopath, psychopath, dictator, sadist, masochist, asshole, dimwit, and right wing nut-job believe in it as strongly as you do, OR when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet, whichever comes first.

Fucked up young people don't get that way by anything taught in their curriculum.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard]

You'd have more credibility if you were not posting as AC, but I'll respond anyway... Finland's existence was threatened both ways, and Stalin was particularly determined to make Finland pay for resistance during the Winter War. With the Germans you might have become some kind of a vassal state with the rest of Europe, but it wouldn't have ended up with people shipped to Siberia... I don't understand why you fail to see the choice that had to be made.

Mannerheim had to deal with Hitler because we needed the weapons. Doesn't mean you have to like the chap personally to do diplomacy.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Deliveranc3]

There are some really interesting documentaries about 3rd generation (currently youth) Germans. The free thinking ones are really pissed off with the repression surrounding discussions of Nazis and Nazism (it's significantly more restricted there than it is in North America).

Some of these free thinkers use Nazism to shock and some are totally ignorant of its real evil because of the straw man presented.

I wish I could find that documentary, it was on the CBC a few months ago...

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Kassiopeia]

I find it unlikely that Kyösti Kallio declared war on Russia after Barbarossa began, since Kallio left office in 1940 and Barbarossa began in June 1941. However, my credentials aren't quite as good: my granduncle Akseli Anttila was merely a General of the Red Army who had left to Russia during the Civil War. He was also the Defence Minister of Kuusinen's puppet government.

Churchill certainly sang Finland's praises during the Winter War, but the planned military aid operation via Norway never materialized, only some volunteers from Sweden and a few Allied countries, primarily the UK. This goodwill disappeared after a Finland lead by President Risto Ryti accepted German trade and soldiers into the country during the so-called interwar period, which culminated in German airplanes using Finland as a landing area in the early phases of Barbarossa in late June 1941. By this time, Northern Finland was housing German soldiers, who had the frontlines in the Petsamo/Murmansk direction during Barbarossa. This obvious pact lead to the Soviet Union doing the logical thing and bombing Finnish cities and installations, which lead to declarations of war.

But you can certainly say Finland was screwed both ways several times, what with first having to deal with the Soviet Union enabled by German consent, then the Soviet Union while working with the Germans, and then finally having to deal with the stragglers of the German forces after signing a peace deal with the Soviets - a deal that was struck in the nick of time, when the Finnish forces presented just enough resistance so that the Soviets couldn't bother and preferred to focus on Central Europe instead of Finland.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[mqduck]

Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers Know what's even more fucked up? Neo-Nazis in Russia - and there are more than a few. I suppose this can be explained by the way Nazism was portrayed as the direct opposite of socialism, and the hatred of socialism among many there. But know what's even MORE fucked up? "National Bolshevism", a mixture of Nazism and (ostensibly) Bolshevism. Their symbol is the Nazi flag with the black swastika in the center replaced by a black sickle-and-hammer.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[kbahey]

This is a common phenomenon: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Another example is Egyptians in WW2 favored Germany and Italy, not out of agreement with ideology, but rather out of hatred of Britian, who occupied Egypt since 1882. A few people named their newborn boys "Hitler" and "Mussolini" as first names even. Only a minority of Egyptian intellectuals sided with the British, such as Abbas Mahmoud El Akkad, who wrote against Hitler and Nazism, contrary to the general sentiment of the public (and the intellectuals) who wanted the British to lose so Egypt can be freed from them.

Another example was Hungary siding with the wrong side and ending up losing a lot of territory to neighboring countries.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[aliquis]

Yeah, but remember that we have 3% intelligent and 3% manipulative elite, I guess there are no need for the last 3% but anyway, say there was!

In this case if everyone follows his example by killing 8 people each and then themself that would add up to 6*9 people each out of 100 or 54%. So then we get a world with the rest 46% of which 3*100/46 = 6.5% are very stupid people and the rest 93.5% are mediocre people!

What a great switch!

I guess he should had studied more math.

Mission failed.
(I sort of hate doing fun of this considering people actually did and some people on this forum may have been their friends, school mates, family and so on. My appologies to those people.)

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[pekkak]

Oh what a load of... I'm in a bit of a bad mood because of the news here, but really, where's the secret? That Finland and Germany were allies is no secret, it's documented history. When you go to war, you pick any allies you can get. That goes for any country, any time. Other Europians don't know about Finland fighting alongside the Axis powers? Really? Since when was that? I never knew any Europians who didn't know this and I've known plenty. More importantly, what has it got to do with the news discussed here?

That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.

Even Israel has neonazis these days (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6985808.stm) which sounds about as stupid as anything to me. It just goes to show that some people are always attracted to stupid, evil ideas and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with history. Explaining a tradegy like this (a young kid going ballistic, ending and/or destroying countless lives including his own) with stuff that happened 60+ years ago is just about as smart as explaining it all with computer games.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

It is important to remember that this guy was not only fascinated by nazism but also communism (you could say that he was interested in all extreme movements). According to the news reports while he was shooting people, he shouted comments about revolution. November 7th 1917 was the date when the revolution started in Russia.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[szo]

This is only half of the truth, I think. I think Finland owes it's independence to it's own fucking cold winter as much as the military support of nazi Germany. The Nazis couldn't cope with the russian winter and in turn, the russians couldn't cope with the finnish winter. :)

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

National Bolshevism seems pretty logical to me. The differences between national socialism and communism aren't really that great.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[S3D]

and Stalin was particularly determined to make Finland pay for resistance during the Winter War.

He was not. He already got most of what he want in Winter War - military base at Hanko (to control Gulf of Finland) and safety area north of Leningrad. The neutral Finland would be extremely convenient both for Stalin and later Soviet rulers as a buffer state. And after the war began Soviet Union had his hand full with Germans, and could not possible be a threat to would be neutral Finland. The only reason Finland enter the war was desire to return lost territory and hope of the Greater Finland - nazi promised to Finland part of the Russian Arctic north, from Archangelsk to Ural. It was not a Soviet threat that started Continuation War.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[ultranova]

In this case if everyone follows his example by killing 8 people each and then themself that would add up to 6*9 people each out of 100 or 54%. So then we get a world with the rest 46% of which 3*100/46 = 6.5% are very stupid people and the rest 93.5% are mediocre people!

If everyone kills themselves then we get a world with no average or any other kind of people left ;).

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[ultranova]

I think it might seem like a well-kept secret, but it's probably that the people that examined it decided that it's not actually as big if a deal as it would seem like if taken out of context, and it's obscure enough that sensationalist media outlets prone to taking things out of context wouldn't come across this information.

German-Finland cooperation during WW2 is taught in grade school history classes which are mandatory to attend, actually. It isn't obscure by any stretch of imagination.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard]

Certainly those motivations were there, most strongly the "getting back at them after Winter War", but IMO assuming some sort of benevolence from Stalin's part is an assumption way too far. Finland barely managed the Winter War, Barbarossa gave an option to try and neutralize both the most long-standing and immediate threat to Finland, and your position is essentially wishful thinking or perfect hindsight at best.

On his youtube page he claimed...

[Anonymous Coward]

"My new account name is German and means "Stormspirit" in English." So I wouldn't be so sure that he chose it because of that band.

Idiot

[iamacat]

If you want to further natural selection, fuck a lot and have as many children as possible. Make lots of money to distribute to the most smart/healthy/ambitious of your sons so that they can also get lots of women. But don't stop there - there is always a chance and, in our society, a probability that others will be taken care by someone else and live to reproduce. Make frequent sperm donations to clinics as well. Why not?

The most stupid thing you can do is go on a mass shooting and then kill yourself. You are only eliminating a statistically insignificant number of competitors for your children and other relatives. If you could take over the whole country and do a proper genocide of people, especially men, with different nationality from yours and then setup a huge harem it might be different. But even then, you will plunge the country into chaos that will not be good even for your decentdents' survival and reproduction.

This guy should definitely make a Darwin award, if only because he mentioned evolution before eliminating himself from the gene pool.

Why is parent modded up?

[plasticsquirrel]

There was no suggestion of anyone blaming YouTube in the summary or in the article. WTF?

Re:Why is parent modded up?

[Stanislav_J]

It's called "sarcasm." Look it up.

Re:Why is parent modded up?

[SatanicPuppy]

"There was no suggestion of anyone blaming YouTube in the summary or in the article. WTF?"

Yet.

There may never be one, because it's in Finland, and their "ZOMG THINK OF TEH CHILDRENS" reflex is not as annoying as the one in the states.

If it had happened in the states, there would be calls to ban guns, youtube, games, certain types of music (KMFDM again), and calls to arm principles, put armed guards in schools, arm teachers, arm other students...etc.

It's a huge waste of time and energy. This stuff happens. We all wish it didn't but it does. It's always some quiet kid, who no one thinks twice about, until wham, he's gunning down people in the halls, and then everyone in the world should have seen it coming, and it's all because of whatever pet peeve people have about society.

Re:Why is parent modded up?

[a_nonamiss]

I just did a Google News search on the story. I picked 10 links to follow at (pseudo) random. Of those 10 links, 9 mentioned YouTube by name in the first paragraph. 3 in the first sentence. The word "blame" is very strong right now, but if I didn't know better, it would be easy for me to assume a real connection. Mark my words, within a few weeks, people will be blaming YouTube, just like people openly blame bands like Rammstein, Marilyn Manson and KMFDM for the Columbine massacre.

Here we go again

[eebra82]

Taken from CNN:

Shooting appeared to have been planned in series of YouTube videos What is it with the mainstream media and their strange assumptions regarding technology and violence. I find it peculiar that as soon as some youngster starts shooting people for no reason, the media will investigate what video games he used to play, Facebook profiles, Youtube videos and whatnot.

No one 'plans' an assassination by uploading videos to the public. He was just trying to reach out to people with similar thoughts. The videos told a story of a guy who was greatly influenced by extreme violence inspired by x and y, but that's hardly a shout-out saying "I'm planning to kill 8 people".

I could bet a few bucks on that this guy plays violent games like Counter-Strike and that the gaming business is going to take yet another unfair punch because some retarded guy couldn't differentiate fantasy from reality.

Re:Here we go again

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think he had any problem differentiating fantasy from reality.

He saw reality and this is how he decided to handle it.

Re:Here we go again

[Anonymous Coward]

The dude imagined he was an uber-human (above the rest of the human race), and considered this massacre a "revolution". That is not seeing reality, ok?

Re:Here we go again

[psychicninja]

On this same subject, I wouldn't take it for granted that these people can't differentiate fantasy from reality. It's merely the fact that people prone to violent action are drawn to violent video games/movies/etc. Violent games don't MAKE people violent. I'm not sure why people don't understand that.

Re:Here we go again

[Starteck81]

Human brains have evolved to include a very advance ability to recognize patterns in order to survive. Over the centuries we have developed an increasingly sophisticated understanding of the world around us and what make it tick. We have done this by observing patterns and interpreting their meanings to gain an understand of how things work.

Consequently when we run into an unknown variable in a pattern, especially patterns related to situations we perceive as dangerous, we fear it. In the case of shootings we don't really know what cause certain people to go off the deep end and start killing people, while other experience the same stimulus and don't kill, but we look for a cause none the less. Even though statistically those that kill might be a small percentage of gun owners, video game players or watchers violent TV/movies it is still the only commonality that we can find so we blame those things for the problem because it scares us to death to think that we couldn't recognize a killer amongst us. Sometimes we just have to understand that we don't understand something and keep working on finding a solution with out freaking out.

Re:Here we go again

[SeaFox]

What is it with the mainstream media and their strange assumptions regarding technology and violence. I find it peculiar that as soon as some youngster starts shooting people for no reason, the media will investigate what video games he used to play, Facebook profiles, Youtube videos and whatnot.

Especially when in the "Technology" segment immediately following is a thinly veiled marketing segment for the latest gadget or website.

What's Nerd about this Article?

[mrbluze]

How is this nerd news? Who cares? It's just more political crap about how the internet is the source of all evil and we need to shut everyone up who speaks their mind...etc..etc.

It does not address any issue or topic that won't get trumpeted to death on your local commercial news network and has no technical implications for anybody.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[MightyMartian]

Then don't open the fucking topic, you half-wit toadhead.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Sponge Bath]

How is this nerd news?

He posted to YouTube! (That's on the intarweb)
He is an alienated youth! (like many /. readers)
Linus Torvalds is also Finnish! (though they probably did not know each other)

Geek - O - Rama

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[kisielk]

I love how comments with the phrase "half-wit toadhead" can get modded insightful here. Reminds me why I keep reading :)

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[pyro_peter_911]

How is this nerd news?

He posted to YouTube! (That's on the intarweb)
He is an alienated youth! (like many /. readers)
Linus Torvalds is also Finnish! (though they probably did not know each other)

Geek - O - Rama

Netcraft confirms it, Sturmgeist89 is dead.

Peter (who probably should be posting this anonymously...)

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Atti K.]

Linus Torvalds is Swedish. Born/lived in Finland.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Upphew]

Jeah, hes swede like Pamela Anderson is finn. Pamela's grandfathers father was called Hermanni Hyytiäinen, and later changed his name to Anderson when moved from Saarijärvi in 1908. His wife's father was Heikki Keski-Salmi, later Henry Solmie, who was from Kuortane.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[HoppQ]

Linus Torvalds is Swedish. Born/lived in Finland. He's a Swedish-speaking Finn. He was born in Finland to Finnish parents. That makes him Finnish. That his parents were Swedish-speaking and he is Swedish-speaking doesn't make him Swedish nationality-wise.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Atti K.]

Nationality is not the same as citizenship. So, as I see it, he's a Finnish citizen, with Swedish nationality.

"His family belongs to the Swedish-speaking minority (roughly 6%) of Finland's population." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

Just as I am a Hungarian-speaking Romanian citizen.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[gay358]

I think nationality and language are related, but don't have 1-to-1 mapping. In my opinion many Swedish speaking citizens of Finland feel that they are Swedish speaking Finns (and some of them find it insulting if you suggest that Finnish and Swedish speaking citizens are two different nationalities), but there also Swedish speaking citizens who feel that they their nationality is separate from Finnish speaking Finns.

It is worth remembering that many of Finnish speakers changed their family language to Swedish when Finland was part of Sweden and the only official language was Swedish.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Anonymous Coward]

By that definition , all French Canadians would be French and all Jews Israelian.

Original video

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't confirm this, but I think this is the original video removed from YouTube. If so, it isn't that interesting (except, perhaps, the telling title).

Re:Original video

[Dakkus]

Yes, the monopolistic newspaper of Finland, Helsingin Sanomat, seems to agree with you. They call it "the home video by Pekka-Eric Auvinen that was removed from Youtube 2". There's also "the home video by Pekka-Eric Auvinen that was removed from Youtube 1", linking here: http://www.hs.fi/videot/1135231628338?kategoria=Uutiset&sivu=1 . Quite a typical bring everyone to a suicide -type. The last time something similar happened it was a boy/young man in 2002, exploding himself and some 7 other people in a shopping centre in Vantaa, near Helsinki. Both this school murderer and the bomb dude were very quiet people who didn't talk very much with others and who just hid all their bad feelings inside. There's something odd about the culture here that makes it a honour not talking about your feelings. And then stuff like this happens. Okay, this killer apparently had some sort of revolution as his motive, asking others to cause chaos in the classroom by throwing around shelves and that kinda stuff before starting the shooting, but behind everything there's of course a mental problem.

Re:Original video

[Teriblows]

on the other hand there are plenty of quiet people who don't shoot up schools. more than 99.99%:P its just another knee jerk thing. i really don't think he just needed to be "talked to".

This was predicted months ago by people on YouTube

[Anonymous Coward]

People who knew this guy on YouTube saw it coming. See http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pq56CjUA0C4 which was made back in June (a few others videos were made too).

The person who made that video has since given their thoughts on the shooting: http://youtube.com/watch?v=GIKUWgsIncg

The problem is OBVIOUS.

[Ambiguous Coward]

I think the problem here is obvious: freely available online video content causes violence! What we need is anti-freely-available-online-video-content legislation. It's the only way to save our outdated ways from the children! Maybe Jack Thompson has a twin that could take up this torch?

-G

Why did YouTube remove the videos?

[pembo13]

Did they contain copyrighted material? Were they placed there against the owner's will?

Re:Why did YouTube remove the videos?

[MozeeToby]

Because it's in horribly bad taste.

Re:Why did YouTube remove the videos?

[pembo13]

Because it's in horribly bad taste. Since when is that part of the criteria to remove a video?

Re:Why did YouTube remove the videos?

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Did they contain copyrighted material? Were they placed there against the owner's will? Because they have the right to do so and chose to exercise it.

Re:Why did YouTube remove the videos?

[fbjon]

Since always, I would say.

Very funny, you hate filled fuck.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to ban twitter.

Text from his YouTube profile (before it was suspe

[Anonymous Coward]

Subscribers: 120
Channel Views: 72,410
aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 - 10/19/2007).

YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now :) My new account name is German and means "Stormspirit" in English.

http://rapidshare.com/files/68 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18
Male from Finland.

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.
Country: Finland
Occupation: Unemployed Philosopher, Outcast
Companies: Human Race (evolved one step above though)
Interests and Hobbies: Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Films and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove,

No wonder he was a psychopath!...

[treofan]

He's got a Unibrow! ..oh, wait. So do all my geek friends...

zomg t3h hindsight

[netsavior]

how could we have not connected the dots?!?! Oh yeah that's right, hindsight is a bit easier than foresight.

At the meetings...

[drxenos]

"Hello, I'm Bob and I have freely available, online video content."

Hi, Bob!

Of course it is.

[SatanicPuppy]

God the PATRIOT act is a fricking nightmare. Has it made anyone safer?

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again. As a country, we've learned our lesson about "just sit tight and wait" when it comes to plane hijacking. Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

It was a surprise. People bought it. That day has passed. But in response we have done unto ourselves far worse things than they could have ever hoped to have accomplished. Massively stupid.

And we will have other successful attacks on our soil. It's inevitable that, over time, everyone will miss someone. The occasional deranged teen will go on a shooting rampage. The occasional terrorist will pull off a successful attack.

But the fact that there is a possible danger is not a reason to upend your entire society. Analyze, find your mistakes, and correct them...Don't throw out a system that failed once, and try to replace it whole cloth with something new, designed by committee! Ridiculous.

Re:Of course it is.

[Danny Rathjens]

Akbar Macbook, Bitch!/quote Good one. Cracked me up. :)

Re:Of course it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sorry but I don't think any pussy with a Mac book is going to be leading any revolt after the terrorist slits the throat of the flight attendant in front of everyone.

Water boarding to get the info about the potential attempt to hijack a plane will be much more successful.

Everything seems to be 'occasional' to you.

Re:Of course it is.

[matria]

Er... my boyfriend is from India, educated in the UK, and served in a tank brigade in Lebanon. He's not exactly a wuss. He hauls around a 17" MacBook Pro, on my recommendation. You really, really don't want to screw around with him. Well, I do, but that's another matter.

Re:Of course it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

May not be someone with a macbook... I know I would attack with my bare hands if nessesary, especially if the moron is only armed with a boxcutter, paper knife or similar. I know that my bulk would be enough to pin someone effectively in the narrow confines of an airplane aisle and as soon as he's down, others would take his weapon and then it's only a matter of throwing the asshole off the plane or whatever we feel like. Doing something like that is the only way to make sure this hijacking will be the last the bozo will ever do, and that's a fairly important thing. No additional hijackings or similar to have jailed comrades freed or similar.

After all, it is important to make sure that terrorists die in the most painful way possible. That's the only way to achieve just a little bit of karmic balance considering a terrorists objectives... ;)

Re:Of course it is.

[Upphew]

"But in response we have done unto ourselves far worse things than they could have ever hoped to have accomplished. Massively stupid." And terrorists can congratulate themselves for a job well done. They tried to create terror, hence the name, and they succeeded.

Re:Of course it is.

[ultranova]

Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

Something to consider: If the laptops in question have lithium-ion batteries, and are subjected to mecanical stress likely to crack them - for example from being hit repeatedly against someone's skull - they will become flamethrowers. In other words, you may wish to use either your fists or some inert instrument of brutal violence, rather than the one which will turn into a firebomb when damaged.

Of course a creative terrorist could use this to bring the plane down in the first place. "Nobody move, I have a Lithium-Ion battery !"

Re:Of course it is.

[Reservoir Penguin]

You would beta someone to death with Macbook on a flight for acting weird? There is a CSI season 1 episode that deals with a similar situation, called "Undfriendly Skies".

Re:Of course it is.

[SatanicPuppy]

No...But I'd beat 'em to death (or at least beat them to serious injury) for pulling a weapon, no matter how insignificant, and running for the cockpit. I doubt I'm the only one. A lot of people have been dogpiled for acting up on planes since 9/11.

It's a good response. If we'd had responses like that, 9/11 would never have happened. The only thing that let them get away with it was the fact that people thought they had something to lose by standing up and going after the terrorist. When you have nothing to lose...That's a whole different story.

The sad part...

[Kazrath]

is how desensitized people are to this type of violence. One of my co-workers is friends with an individual that attends that school. He made a joke "Well at least I get to take the rest of the week off and do some drinking!".

Re:The sad part...

[CptPicard]

True, it is sad. I am currently reading one of the bigger economics and stock market -related forums in Finland and it's quite shocking how much understanding they actually have for the killer. "Great motives, bad implementation, should have shot some Social Democrats instead"... and of course it's all because the fault of the homogenizing influence of the public school system that oppresses obvious übermenschen like this one genius.

Re:The sad part...

[jjohnson]

I wouldn't be too sad about this--I don't think it indicates a blasé attitude. People have long made jokes like that at dark times, as part of coping, or just from a sense that life goes on. Salon has a great article on the venal, silly, and generally unworthy things that many thought on 9/11: Forbidden Thoughts on 9/11.

Re:The sad part...

[evanbd]

Is there actually an article there? All I see is a giant ad a crapload of cookies I had to deny (mostly from 3rd-party sites, too -- Ick).

Re:The sad part...

[jjohnson]

Salon is a bit of a sad case for advertising supported sites. I actually stopped reading them years ago because it was like vacationing in South Dakota--not bad, but the glare of all the advertising gave me a headache.

That said, I think that article is worth struggling through to read.

Re:The sad part...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I don't think that's the only way to look at it.

I think making jokes about a horrific situation might be considered a psychological defense mechanism as well. Given the relative proximity here, I think it would be plausible.

Re:The sad part...

[jhol13]

Jesus what a crap!

We, the Finns, are absolutely certainly not desensitized. For us humour is one way to deal with the situation.

I agree the joke was bad (not funny at all), but I would be really, *REALLY* surprised if he did not feel anything.

Re:The sad part...

[weicco]

They're always after me precious vodka!

Humour is a defence mechanism, even here in Finland ;)

Re:The sad part...

[MirrorField]

Humor, íncluding black and tasteless humor, are an important coping mechanism. Not necessarily a sign of desensitization.

Re:The sad part...

[Martian_Kyo]

This could be the start of another monkey sphere, Dunbar's number discussion and how it's quite normal and if not healthy to make jokes about a tragedy that happened outside your monkey sphere.
We haven't BECOME desensitized, we always were. It just that before the information explosion, we weren't aware of the bad things that happened all the way across the world. To say that people were more caring/sensitive before is wrong, before people were just more oblivious of what's going on in the world. 20-30 years ago, hardly anyone outside of finland would hear about this story.

If I cried or just felt bad every time I hear about a tragic death....i'd be sad 24/7.

Oh, how fucking original...

[meringuoid]

... He's a school shooter-upper. Love that movies list. Oh, and that music list. And fuck, he even likes Nietzsche.

Word of advice, you fuckwit: the Will to Power does not involve random murder. Nor does killing a bunch of people including yourself count as a good move, evolutionarily speaking.

Shit. If I didn't know he'd actually done it, I'd think this was a joke. You couldn't get a more perfect stereotype of the school shooter. This is just made for the media - I almost wonder if he wrote this on purpose, to give them something to chew on afterwards...

Re:Oh, how fucking original...

[Rycross]

He forgot to put "Air Force One" on his movies list since thats where he ripped the "... on that day of deliverance, you will know what I want" part of his speech from. Kid probably doesn't have a single original thought.

Re:Oh, how fucking original...

[DamnStupidElf]

Nor does killing a bunch of people including yourself count as a good move, evolutionarily speaking.

My guess is that you're not a direct descendant of a Neanderthal or any number of the other humanoids pushed to extinction by their other humanoid neighbors. Evolution doesn't give a shit about how individuals die; all that matters is that the survivors continue to breed.

Re:Oh, how fucking original...

[meringuoid]

Evolution doesn't give a shit about how individuals die; all that matters is that the survivors continue to breed.

On the contrary: all evolution is, is individuals living, breeding and dying. Now, how many of my individual ancestors, in every generation all the way back to the first replicating molecule four billion or so years ago, died like this guy without first breeding?

Exactly zero.

Natural selection indeed - beginning, it seems, with himself. A well thought out manifesto indeed.

Re:Oh, how fucking original...

[The_mad_linguist]

My mother's a Neanderthal, you insensitive clod!

For those who aren't following the story:

[Wilson_6500]

The gunman has apparently died of his wounds. At least that's the last needless death we can expect to come from this particular saga.

Re:For those who aren't following the story:

[CptPicard]

I almost would have wanted him to live on as some half-conscious vegetable. You know, to be completely dependant -- something he apparently despised -- and still unable to kill himself... :-)

Re:For those who aren't following the story:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's good that you can't realize petty wishes like that.

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[CptPicard]

So, he was Libertarian... it's almost like from the pen of Ayn Rand, except that she made it all voluntary :)

Hear hear

[Anonymous Coward]

It's so annoying seeing great comments modded down or criticised just because the moderator/responder was too daft to comprehend what was written. But then, I'm prepared to fight for people's right to be stupid dumbasses.

When we're done, I'll buy you a sense of humor. Having to dissect and explain my own attempts at it are really depressing, so I want to avoid it in the future.

All you'll get is someone who learns to laugh at slapstick. You can't buy them a sense of humour because you can't buy them an intellect.

Grammar Nazi

[Anonymous Coward]

their/**there**/they're.

Finland and the Germans in WW2

[SuurMyy]

The fact of the matter is that we'd be speaking Russian here w/o the Germans, and very cunning leaders of our own. We do owe the germans big time, in this. Just to give an example, look at this rather famous battle of Tali-Ihantala.

This was a very important battle: "The Battle of Tali-Ihantala, along with other successful Finnish victories achieved during the period, finally convinced the Soviet leadership that conquering Finland was extremely hard, and not worth the cost."

And as it happens, we had probably decisive help from the Germans, in that one, too:

• German air unit Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey (Lt. Col. Kurt Kuhlmey) arrived in Finland on June 16. (23-43 Fw-190 A-6/F-8 fighters and ground attack aircraft, 24-30 Ju-87 D Stukas and 1-8 Bf-109 G-8 reconnaissance fighters)
• German Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 303 (Cpt. Hans-Wilhelm Cardeneo) arrived in Finland on June 22. (22 StuG III Ausf. G assault guns, 9 StuH 42 assault howitzers)

On a more personal note, I still get to speak the language of my ancestors, and hence it's hard to think too badly of our past German overlords. And this has nothing to do w/nazi sympathies. One of my past relatives even fought the Russians in the German eastern front. Also, some of my now past family lost all of their lands to the Russians, everything. So to many it may seem that the Germans were the Big Evil, but to us it was the Russians. And really, Stalin was a way more accomplished mass-murderer than Hitler, but that's another story entirely.

it's not that complicated

[circletimessquare]

you can play with rocket launchers in your back yard, pledge eternal devotion to hitler, and ramble on and on about the craziest shit

none of theat matters

but when you threaten a school, no matter how obliquely, you should be arrested

this guy did that. the rest doesn't matter

Re:it's not that complicated

[Lurker2288]

Fine, but what constitutes a threat? There was a story on the news the other day where I live about some 2nd grader being suspended for pointing a 'gun finger' at another student and yelling "bang, you're dead." Is that a threat? What if a teenager says he'd like to kill a teacher who just gave him a detention? Or the class loser commiserating with a friend and saying he wishes he could 'blow the whole school up.'

Are any of these threats? None of them? If we arrest the people making them, are we removing a valid threat to society, or are we just giving them a REAL reason to be pissed off at the world? And do you really want to totally discount the circumstances (I'd be a lot more worried about the rocket launcher wielding neo-Nazi than about some kid who sits at home on the weekend and watches 'Heathers.')? How many non-threats are you willing to lock up for some nebulous, hypothetical increase in safety?

Simple rules like 'if you do X, then you should always get Y' don't really satisfy us in the real world. The consequence of a more nuanced approach, unavoidably, is that sometimes bad things happen despite out efforts.

Re:it's not that complicated

[Anonymous Coward]

but when you threaten a school, no matter how obliquely, you should be arrested

I'll let Alice Cooper know.

Re:it's not that complicated

[Fizzl]

And was the "threat" video really something one should be serious about? If I had seen the video the day before the shootings, I would have dismissed the lunatic as a nutcase with twisted sense of humour.
If you haven't seen the video, here's what happens:

1. Picture of the school is shown with next days date on top.
2. Ominous song plays
3. Video changes to a picture of the shooter pointing a gun at the camera. The picture is tinted red.
4. Another picture of the killer with similiar tinting.
5. Video ends.

On a different note. It is surprising the killer managed to take so many people with him, with such a low power weapon. The shots must have been from very close range and straight to the head. The .22 sig sauer mosquito shouldn't be fit for even shooting down birds from 20 meters away. I know of a case where someone accidentally (empty clip, bullet in chamber) shot himself in the forehead with similiar gun and the projectile just disintegrated on the skull. He was released from hospital in matter of hours.

Re:it's not that complicated

[Pumpkin Tuna]

If I had seen the video you described the day before the shooting, there wouldn't have been a shooting. I'm a teacher (and not an overly paranoid one at that) and this would have set off all kinds of alarm bells. You have a location, a date, and an obvious threat (the gun). The next aspect of this story will be that others from the school, probably students, saw this video and did nothing. Maybe if the teachers were a little more comfortable with technology they might have randomly come across the video while looking for other videos about their school.

Re:it's not that complicated

[ahadock]

Probably more people in this country[USA] have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other calibers combined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22's for self-defense.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

While .22s may seem like 'wussie weapons', all guns are lethal. The number of people you kill is more a function of how many you shoot, not what you shoot them with.

Granted, if you were _expecting_ a fight you should probably bring along a carbine, after all:

As a corollary tactical principle, no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.

Re:it's not that complicated

[fbjon]

It was posted a few hours before the attack, so it's kinda unlikely anyone relevant saw it.

Confirmed

[6031769]

This assertion is confirmed by the BBC.

hi twitter

[dedazo]

Don't forget to ban twitter.

You are already banned, since like all good trolls and crapflooders your account is at -50 karma or something, so you can only post what, twice a day? And troll as AC, I guess. You do know that negative moderation of AC posts is tied to your IP address, correct? I'm guessing soon you'll have to resort to using open proxies and whatnot.

You could of course just use your sockpuppet account, but I'm guessing that one is also on the slippery karma slope by now, as expected.

Sucks to be you :)

Re:hi twitter

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing soon you'll have to resort to using open proxies and whatnot.

You would know. Why don't you lend him your botnet? We miss twitter and your shit is boring.

Re:hi twitter

[Anonymous Coward]

you're going around crying about how everyone wants to "suck your cock" but you seem very adept at sucking your own. how does it taste?

He was bullied at school

[gay358]

According to some news, the shooted had long history of being bullying victim at school.

Re:He was bullied at school

[gay358]

s/shooted/shooter/

Re:He was bullied at school

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess we'll have to take your word for that one seeing as the link is not in English.

Re:He was bullied at school

[jhol13]

You can take mine too.

The magazine it links is one of the most respected in FInland, so it is more likely to be right (than the evening papers).

BTW, one of the links claims his ex girlfriend says he was not nuts. Apparently she did not notice his madness or maybe he cracked afterwards. Who knows, maniac as he was.

Re:He was bullied at school

[Anonymous Coward]

HS is a newspaper, not a magazine. And "evening papers"=tabloids. Also, the ex girlfriend seems at least as unhinged as Auvinen was.

Re:He was bullied at school

[Filik]

Who wouldn't be, in her current position...

Re:He was bullied at school

[AbRASiON]

Surprise Surprise, someone doesn't fit in with the normal 'sheep' and so the dipshits pick on the different guy, it's the same recurring theme.

I know many people picked on at school, myself included.
I learnt the fine art of self depreciation (thanks mr dangerfield) as well as humour in general, sure it got me some friends and kept me out of trouble but it sure as shit pretty much cost me an education just to fit in, I became the class clown because being myself meant alienation.

I know precisely how this fellow felt and those 2 kids at columbine like him, those who are different, be it genuinely intelligent or even just introverted are picked on, if you do use what skills you have to retaliate (your wit) the morons without the ability to cleverly retort resort to fists, it's mostly a lose lose unless you 'join' the idiots which was my choice.

However, I can't say I agree with the whole 'sue the bully!' or protect the children, if anything I wish someone had told me just to smack some of these guys in the mouth because learning to stand up for yourself is worth a lot more than having Mr. Smith call the police on angry billy, having him arrested and you teased for being a pussy for the rest of your schooling (bullys sucked for me 15 years ago, I feel REAL sorry for kids now)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Glad he suffered

[stratjakt]

Doesn't seem the type to deserve the whole "quick and painless".

He can watch YouTube in hell (they have iPhones there).

Re:Glad he suffered

[mqduck]

Yup, cause we all know the more a murderer suffers, the lower the victim count goes. Vengeance is one of the ugliest of human emotions, no matter who we're talking about.

Re:Glad he suffered

[stratjakt]

Oh please. Get off your high horse, and don't be such a pompous douchebag.

Jealousy and hatred are much uglier emotions, this story is proof of that, and when a murderer dies of his own hands he robs his victims and their families of justice and closure.

If those close to this tragedy can lighten their overbearing emotional load a little by realizing his "die a martyr for losers" plan backfired, all the more power to 'em.

I wish nothing on those who seek to harm others, out of their own petty jealousies, but the karma the universe has in store for them. In this case it came in the form of him doubtlessly crying and begging for his life like a worthless bitch, while people with many orders of magnitude more humanity than he could ever hope to have struggled to save it, despite being aware of what he just did.

Videos

[Dan East]

Here are two of the videos.

In this one he is target practicing on an apple:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90d_1194444897

This video is a bunch of stills; a picture of his school, and various pictures of him with his gun:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=369_1194449557

Dan East

Save the World

[iridium_ionizer]

Save a Mentally Ill Person, Save the World.

There was recently a public service announcement on TV that went somewhere along the lines of: Yeah, your friend may flake out on you, or act withdrawn sometimes, but what someone suffering from a mental illness needs most is a friend.

I know that it is human nature for people to make friends with people who fit in similar niches as themselves. And maybe in an idealized view of smaller communities of yesteryear, someone suffering from a mental illness would be more accepted, if only out of necessity (or maybe not). But it is not hard to imagine how in modern society, with so much emphasis on a mobile society and independence, that a person with only a mild case of mental illness could find themselves suddenly isolated and without a support group of family and friends. This could make an illness that was once barely noticeable to become dishabilitating.

Yes, people are free to choose to improve there circumstances or seek assistance, but if there is anything which Nazism and Stalinism taught us it is that even normal people can act in horrible ways given the (im)proper environment. And before this analogy is lost on you, remember that people with mental illnesses generally have either genetically-determined imbalances in their brain chemistries, or else traumatic past experiences. Most people don't wake up one day and decide to become mentally ill.

So instead of making jokes about people that we know as being "the next mass murderer/serial killer/etc" and effectively shunning said person, we should try to include them into our social circle. Otherwise we are just complaining about the symptoms without bothering with the inoculation. It's our society, if everyone did something small we could avert at least some of these tragedies.

Re:Save the World

[Lurker2288]

Seriously, kudos to you for that comment. I mean, it takes so little to treat a person with some decency and respect, and yet all too often we fail to do even that. Maybe no amount of friendship or understanding would have stopped this kid, or others who have acted out violently, but why wouldn't you try anyway?

Re:Save the World

[kovari]

A slashdot comment that's truly insightful and wise? I want a beowulf cluster of those.

Re:Save the World

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankyou for this rational comment that, If was more popular would save people like myself from social isolation and deteriation. Its only when I feel able to interact with people that I can talk about my fears, and that usually leads me to realising the truth about my fears and delusions.

I myself have suffered from mental illness for most of my life. I also have had treatement for most of my life and can testify that isoliation is the worst thing that can happen to someone who is my situation.

The nature of my anxiety disorders and depressive problems are not important to the discussion other than as a personal note that the only danger I feel I have ever posed is to myself and thus is seemingly not of interest to those who seem to feel that those with a mental disorder are de facto dangers to other. I also feel that I am not abnormal in this assement as I have met through my therapy many other people suffering mental disorders.

And yet I don't feel afraid by meeting someone with mental illness - And I am disposed over a long period of years to fear and distrust of other people.

I fear mostly the people who would judge me without even thinking about me and my problems. They; and not I seem to be the problem with a rational and unpredudiced judgement of mental illness.

Re:Save the World

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the AC who made the previous comment re save the world etc. Even If I had been a registered account on slashdot I would have posted anonymously on that as I fear exposure, riducule and judgement on my mental health.

Not going to retract my previous statement only that I wish I could have corrected the spelling :)

If anyone would like to talk to me about my experiances and how I feel it impacts myelf and society then im afraid if you have noticed it among the rest of the detritus then you will have to reply to this message and then hope I have the courage to contact you if i find your reply - In other words don't hold your breath - Ive took a big chance in regards my fears in saying what Ive said so I may be putting my head under cover for a while to recover.

Had to reply in the first place tho - a normal person speaking up for the mentally ill, its unusual and needed a response from someone on the frontline.

of course there's a gray area

[circletimessquare]

there's nothing you or i could say that removes a gray area

however, all of the random shit that someone does is meaningless unless a rational human being could rightly constitute one of his actions as a genuine threat

i haven't seen the video, it's taken down. but the description talks about a massacre at a school on a future date

sounds like a specific actionable threat to me

Re:of course there's a gray area

[Lurker2288]

Okay, so now your position has changed from 'any threat merits arrest' to 'specific, actionable threats warrant arrest'.

I don't know, how many videos are there up on youtube with kids brandishing guns and talking about shooting shit up? How many of them would really do it? And how many are you willing to lock up to prevent the rare nutjob?

Or hell, let's take this case. Say somebody had seen his videos, and connected it with him, and contacted the authorities. They'd probably take his gun away and make him see a counselor or something, but without having actually done anything, they probably can't lock him up (not familiar with the laws in Finland). So two months later he's out, and he finds another way to get a gun. Or he builds a bomb. Or whatever.

I don't disagree with you that situations like this present a clear opportunity to intervene, but it's tough to sort out the real threats from the posers, and arrest isn't the optimal solution in any case.

Re:of course there's a gray area

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen the video and a couple of others that he has posted. The others were somewhat disturbing but didn't contain anything that would imply an imminent attack but the "threat video" does show his school, today's date and him pointing a gun to the camera. It was, however, only posted a few hours before the attack so whilst it should've prompted action, few (if any) saw it before it was too late.

Warning signs

[busydoingnothing]

Warning signs exist only in hindsight.

May be, not are

[Chuck Chunder]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic.

I'm willing to believe that they may be therapeutic in some cases where people have their fantasy and move on. However there are also people who dwell on them and that is certainly not therapeutic or cathartic.

It's the same thing but from my experiences with depression the human brain can certainly get stuck in an unhealthy loop and focus repeatedly on things until they become all-consuming.

It's silly to say that all fantasy is bad, but it's equally silly to say all of it is good or harmless.

That's not desensitization...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that's a perfectly natural and generally healthy coping mechanism (the humor, not the drinking). In excess of course it can be a form of repression, but as an incidental method of coping I'd say humor is actually among the best. When life throws shit at you it really helps to have a sense of humor about it. Just ask Douglas Adams - after all, we apologize for the inconvenience.

I blame George W. Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Democrat and loyal Slashdot reader I blame The Jew Puppet George Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin.

This can only be seen as an extension of this policies and AmeriKKKa's love of guns, infecting the rest of the world.

As opposed to helping the world, like Clinton did, The Jew Puppet George Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin is only concerned with blowing the heads off kid soldiers in Iraq for his amusement.

Oh well, every dead soldier is one dead racist ReTugglican, and one more vote for us Democrats.

The holocaust refers to an event in history

[Anonymous Coward]

The holocaust refers to the mass exterminations of Jews AND homosexuals AND gypsies AND whoever else was included in the purging of human life. It is an event that is named the holocaust. It's not a special "Jew massacre". The only thing that smacks of racism is you believing that it is somehow exclusive to Jews and disliking it for that.

Re:The holocaust refers to an event in history

[PerlDudeXL]

The word Holocaust means the genocide of the Jews during WWII:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040821/Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Re:The holocaust refers to an event in history

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nazis were atheist. How can it be a Holocaust? A real Holocaust requires religious belief on the part of the one performing the sacrifice.

Re:The holocaust refers to an event in history

[dsoltesz]

the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this "the final solution to the Jewish question." The word Holocaust is derived from the Greek holokauston, a translation of the Hebrew word 'olah, meaning a burnt sacrifice offered whole to God. This word was chosen because in the ultimate manifestation of the Nazi killing program--the extermination camps--the bodies of the victims were consumed whole in crematoria and open fires.

Note the Britannica definition does not limit the definition of Holocaust only to the genocide of Jews. Wikipedia's source for the definition including only Jews in the definition is a highly biased one and suggests that is the definition among Jews, not among the general populace. Also note the Wikipedia article cites broader definitions:

Although the word "holocaust" has been widely used since the 17th century to refer to the violent death of a large number of people

and

The word "Holocaust" is also used in a wider sense to describe other actions of the Nazi regime. These include around half a million Roma and Sinti, the deaths of several million Soviet prisoners of war, along with slave laborers, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, and political opponents.

Even the Wikipedia article suggests limiting the term to only refer to the killing of Jews during WWII is highly biased, and personally I'm finding the Wikipedia article to be heinously lacking in objectivity.

The use of the word in this wider sense is objected to by many Jewish organizations, particularly those established to commemorate the Jewish Holocaust. Jewish organizations say that the word in its application to the Nazi genocide was originally coined to describe the extermination of the Jews, and that the Jewish Holocaust was a crime on such a scale, and of such specificity, as the culmination of the long history of European antisemitism, that it should not be subsumed into a general category with other crimes of the Nazis.

I should hope we'd all be outraged and horrified at every single death at the hands of the Nazis, not just those of Jews. The notion that the tragedy of any group is somehow diluted by the remembrance of the same tragedy inflicted upon other groups, suggesting that the killing of gypsies or homosexuals was somehow a "lesser" crime, is absurd and offensive.

freaky how?

[Anonymous Coward]

A 22 pistol is nothing to be scared of. Neither is a manifesto. Neither is scary. One is a firearm (neutral piece of hardware) and one is a document (neutral of any action on it's own).

Let's allow for freedom to reign as it's the guns and documents that will free (or enslave) people.

Right-wing netizens

[CptPicard]

Been reading quite a lot of political blogs and forums tonight and it's pretty sad what I'm seeing.. those who have a systematic political agenda to attack the prevalent values in Finnish society (namely, that we aren't enough like what Auvinen wants in his manifesto but tend to prefer to be more inclusive), especially the more rabid Libertarians for whom the Nordic welfare state is an absolute red cloth, seem to just complain that the guy's PR skills were a bit bad when he did what he did, but that he was otherwise quite a great guy.... and some of them are barely managing to hide their gloating that something like this should happen in our "safe" society.

Need to go puke really. It's nice to get to see some true colours though.

I blame George W. Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Democrat and loyal Slashdot reader I blame The Jew Puppet George Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin.

This can only be seen as an extension of this policies and AmeriKKKa's love of guns, infecting the rest of the world.

As opposed to helping the world, like Clinton did, The Jew Puppet George Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin is only concerned with blowing the heads off kid soldiers in Iraq for his amusement.

Oh well, every dead soldier is one dead racist ReTugglican, and one more vote for us Democrats.
.

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[renegadesx]

He was talking about this sort of shit when he was NaturalSelector89. We saw this comming a mile away.

He always made videos praising the likes of Timothy McVeigh and being sympothetic towards guys like Eric Harris.

http://youtube.com/TheAmazingAtheist here is a link to TJ's channel where he talks about it on his latest video. He had a memorable confrontation with this kid in the past

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[znode]

I was able to grab his manifesto files from his zip pack before all the sites took them off. Here follows his rant.

ATTACK INFORMATION

Event: Jokela High School Massacre.
Targets: Jokelan Lukio (High School Of Jokela), students and faculty, society, humanity, human race.
Date: 11/7/2007.
Attack Type: Mass murder, political terrorism (altough I choosed the school as target, my motives for the attack are political and much much deeper and therefore I don't want this to be called only as "school shooting").
Location: Jokela, Tuusula, Finland.
Perpetrator's name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist). I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.
Weapons: Semi-automatic .22 Sig Sauer Mosquito pistol.

What do I hate / What I don't like?
Equality, tolerance, human rights, political correctness, hypocrisy, ignorance, enslaving religions and ideologies, antidepressants, TV soap operas & drama shows, rap -music, mass media, censorship, political populists, religious fanatics, moral majority, totalitarianism, consumerism, democracy, pacifism, state mafia, alcholohics, TV commercials, human race.
What do I love / what do I like?
Existentialism, self-awareness, freedom, justice, truth, moral & political philosophy, personal & social psychology, evolution science, political incorrectness, guns, shooting, BDSM, computers, internet, aggressive electronic and industrial rock & metal music, violent movies, , FPS -computer games, sarcasm, irony, black humour, macabre artm mass & serial killer cases, natural disasters, eugenics

Natural Selector's Manifesto

How Did Natural Selection Turn Into Idiocratic Selection?

Today the process of natural selection is totally misguided. It has reversed. Human race has been devolving very long time for now. Retarded and stupid , weak-minded people are reproducing more and faster than the intelligent, strong-minded people. Laws protect the retarded majority which selects the leaders of society. Modern human race has not only betrayed its ancestors, but the future generations too. Homo Sapiens, HAH! It is more like a Homo Idioticus to me! When I look at people I see every day in society, school and everywhere... I can't say I belong to same race as the lousy, miserable, arrogant, selfish human race! No! I have evolved one step above!

Naturality has been discriminated through religions, ideologies, laws and other mass delusion systems. Individual, who is going through his/hers natural power process and trying to live naturally, but is being told that the way he acts or thinks is wrong and stupid, will usually have some reactions which might be considered as "psychological disorders" by the establishment. In reality they are just natural reactions to the disruption of natural power process. They will have some of the following (depending on individual's personality): feelings of inferiority / superiority, hostility, aggression, frustration, depression, self-hatred / hatred towards other people, suicidal / homicidal thought etc... and it is completely normal.

Humans are just a species among other animals and world does not exist only for humans. Death and killing is not a tragedy, it happens in nature all the time between all species. Not all human lives are important or worth saving. Only superior (intelligent, self-aware, strong-minded) individuals should survive while inferior (stupid, retarded, weak-minded masses) should perish.

There is also another solution to the problem: stupid people as slaves and intelligent people as free. What I mean is that they who have free minds, are capable of intelligent existential and philosophical thinking and know what justice is, should be free and rulers... and the robotic masses, they can be slaves since they do not mind it now either and because their minds are on so retarded level. The gangsters that now rule societies, would of course get what they deserve.

Of

Unabomber!

[srgvie]

Theodore Kaczynski is his master!

He Never Did Get the "Natural Selection" Part

[meehawl]

For someone who was ostensibly advocating natural selection, removing himself from the gene pool early and before creating as many offspring as possible is a staggering display of unfitness. Instead of all that pseudo crap on his profile, he should have taken the time to read Darwin's Origin of Species.

FUCKTART ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

go fuck yourself troll.

boo hoo?

[partowel]

oh another shooting?

so what?

As for modders, I don't give a fuck what they think.

My mind is not open for debate, discussion, or manipulation. My mind is just fine without you.

Back to the shooting. Oh well.

Too bad. Looks like someone else didn't like the gov't/relgious/political bullshit being rammed down his throat.

Why men? Because women will do anything to fit in. Women will kiss your ass to fit in.

Men on the other hand will FIGHT. Fuck you. Kiss my ass.

Women can't fight in wars. Women just want to TALK and TALK and TALK.

If talking really worked, the world would be in better shape.

But this man decided to fight back.

Everyone is afraid of people who fight back. It means they are not going to listen to the garbage being

promoted by the gov't/religion/politics/etc.

Atheists are just as guilty as religious people. People will hurt other people, regardless of whether you believe in God, gods, or

NO god at all.

Blaming "religion" or "atheism" is just a scapegoat. Humans are the problem. Last time I checked, human beings have FREE WILL.

Some people say free will doesn't exist. Those people can kiss my ass AND give me all their money,property,etc.

Fat chance in hell that free will doesn't exist.

This school shooting is just another example of someone who hates the "new world order", the "American" ONE world order.

If the USA had their way, everyone would be an american. Too bad for the USA that will never happen.

China is going to OWN the moon. The USA economy is crashing. Its crashing so bad the Canadian dollar is skyrocketing.

Conclusion :

This school shooting is just another shout against the world, and its bullshit. You've seen one hollywood movie, you've seen

it ALL. You see one corrupt gov't, you've seen it all. You see one asshole at work, you've seen every asshole in the universe.

This world really is STUPID. SO stupid, they are still on Earth. Nuclear powered ships COULD have been a reality.

BUT the cold war ended. Too bad the soviet union [ when it existed ] didn't go into space and make a moon colony.

The cold war had many advantages. It pushed technology to the edge, and beyond. NOW people are just fucking lazy.

The moon? The USA is too lazy. China wants it. China WILL get it. If the USA hates communism, they sure have love China's

money. Obviously money is more important than human rights, freedoms, or selling prisoner organs.

A bit off topic? So sue me.

One sentence conclusion :

Eternal Vigilance is the price of FREEDOM!

The Geek as "Rambo"

[westlake]

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again...Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

This is real world and not the video game, more likely you will doing something involuntary...and messy.

It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point.

Re:The Geek as "Rambo"

[Anonymous Coward]

>The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again...Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in >business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our >faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

>This is real world and not the video game, more likely you will doing something involuntary...and messy.

>It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer >who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point.

    Not a problem. Ex-paratrooper. Martial arts instructor, etc. And /. lovin', Kubuntu packing notebook world traveller hackoid AC(currently in Japan.) Terrorists beware! :-) Let me at 'em! :-)

Re:The Geek as "Rambo"

[Anonymous Coward]

"It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point."

Oh come on, with a plane hijacking you would already be knowing you will die EITHER WAY, so i'd rather try to save my ass even with 1% of luck to be able to, than doing nothing and just let the plane crash onto something.

Re:The Geek as "Rambo"

[pipatron]

And /. lovin', Kubuntu packing notebook world traveller

That's why I got my Thinkpad, it has such nice and sharp edges. I'm a wuss so I got the ultraportable though, doesn't weigh that much. :/

Re:The Geek as "Rambo"

[torchdragon]

Not really. Anyone who has taken even a year of some form of martial arts training, even one of the cookie cutter schools that may let you just pay money for a black belt will probably be in a relatively ok state of mind to recognize a lethal threat and remain in a capacity to deal with that threat.

And then you have people who are just big, strong, and angry. You'd better be damn sure that box cutter incapacitates the raging Bubba on the first swipe because I'm sure there's a lot of people just looking for an excuse to blow off some steam these days.

And to your point, I don't mind involuntary and messy if it saves my plane from being flown into a building. If I'm the hostage? I'll do what I can to protect myself but I sure as hell expect random angry passengers to get up from their seats and dismantle the hostile in as violent a way as they see fit and functional to perform. Will I die? Maybe. But what's my life compared to the multitudes of people in a plane?

Seriously though, you're right. This is the real world and all the flights that I go on these days (SouthWestern), there's really no room to perform a hijacking. The elbow space is terrible.

Re:The Geek as "Rambo"

[Shadow99_1]

I've gotten plenty messy before while 'challenging a close-combat trained killer' or at least a reasonable faximille. It was when I was breaking the arm of the guy trying to mug me with a knife... Then again I was trained in hand to hand by my uncle who was a special forces hand to hand instructor... So I'd say I'm not exactly the norm...

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[Anonymous Coward]

See now this is an example of someone that should have just offed themselves and be done with it.

Of course he's bonkers.

the calamity?

[AI0867]

like Jenova?

i can solve your problem

[circletimessquare]

because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white

it's like this: a guy steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. is he really evil? no. sometime later, after a few more thefts, he kills the occupant of a house he invades. now he is definitely evil. well, when did he go from misunderstood and destitute and requiring of our understand, to a vile evil bastard worthy of our punishment?

nobody knows

but because we cannot pin down the exact moment at which someone went from victimized to victimizer, does not mean he is not a victimizer. because we can't decide exactly when shades of grey fade away to certain black, does not mean we withhold judgment on someone or a situation that is black

see, in all of your comments above, you keep grasping for certainty. there is none, you will never find it

some people like you won't act unless they are 100% certain of things. and what that usually leads to is a failure to act on things most probably requiring intervention. nothing is 100% certain. you are plagued by doubt. which is fine, it means you have a conscience, you don't want to do wrong. but you must understand it is impossible to act and not make mistakes now and then, but it is also much worse to never act. you need to accept that, and understand there is no certainty on questions like this

you keep looking for the uncertainty, you keep saying that something about a situation is in doubt. well yeah, duh, there is uncertainty and doubt in every complicated situation like this

yes, someday, you will make a mistake when you act

but that fact doesn't mean should you should never act. that is, in fact, much worse

you make your best judgment, and you go with it, and sometimes you make the wrong choice, and that's life

but some people are so petrified of making the wrong choice in a gray area, they make no choice at all

which is far worse than acting, and sometimes fucking up

because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white

get what i mean?

Re:i can solve your problem

[Lurker2288]

I raise the issue of uncertainty not, as you suggest, because of a need for perfect knowledge prior to action, but rather to illustrate that a one-size-fits-all response ("arrest anyone who threatens a school," as you suggested) is foolish in a situation that's overwhelmingly shades of gray. Neither of my posts suggest that authorities do nothing in response to a threat; rather, the response needs to be proportionate to the perceived risk. A kid doodling a picture of himself shooting other students might merit a trip to the guidance office; on the other hand, a kid who's spending his time in the basement wiring timers to propane tanks probably needs a more aggressive intervention.

Seriously, ignore every other reason why your suggestion is idiotic and think solely of the statistics. The odds that any kid who makes threats will actually hurt somebody are so damn tiny that even a really good screening mechanism will bust far more posers than actual shooters. That means an enormous amount of time and money that could have been used in meaningful ways wasted on a bunch of kids who weren't going to do anything in the first place. But of course we must THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Who cares if the schools can't afford decent teachers--you can't put a price on safety!

Waterboarding

[westlake]

Water boarding to get the info about the potential attempt to hijack a plane will be much more successful.

Torture extracts what you want to hear and not want you need to know. The terrorist who risks capture has probably memorized enough false leads and plausible scenarios to keep his interrogators occupied for months. He will have been trained to sacrifice his pawns to protect his queen. He may not even know how much of the truth he holds himself.

National Socialism

[jihadist]

Anyone talking about Nazism should read what it was actually about:

The Programme of the German Workers' Party is designed to be of limited duration. The leaders have no intention, once the aims announced in it have been achieved, of establishing fresh ones, merely in order to increase, artificially, the discontent of the masses and so ensure the continued existence of the Party.

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with

NZ

[dafing]

Guessing you are a fellow New Zealander, so what would you like to be done about this? I'm not attacking you on anything, just making that clear, I'd like to hear your opinion on what needs to be done, or not, here in NZ.

You might recall all the things about the terrorist camps, Tama Iti I believe. Its starting to affect us here in NZ. I think that Tama Iti should be in the slammer for life just for his past actions, he has a huge amount of support it seems.

I see Out of the Blue, about the Aramoana shooting is on TV3 soon, which is somewhat upsetting now. Just one guy, without videogames, death metal, slashdot to blame.

My grandmother doesnt want to ever see things like that, I think everyone should see it as a documentry, that its no different than the newspaper articles were. A workmate thinks we celebrate these people by giving news coverage. Whats your feelings? Or not, sorry to bother you.

Re:NZ

[BlackSmithNZ]

Yeap, I am in Auckland - though I was living in Dunedin when David Gray ran amok. I have been meaning to catch 'Out of the Blue' at the movies as it looks very good - and relevant. Best comment was from Tame Iti son this morning on the radio; he pointed out that in the last 100 years or so, Maori activists have had huge publicity doing things like attempting to cut down a tree (finished by the Auckland Council), smashing a cup (that is no longer ours), and showing their arse at VIP's. He has a good point; Tame is infamous for many things (including his art exhibition) but violence? Wait and see the results of the court cases, but 'terrorist' training camps sounds very trumped up when they are breaking down the doors of people like 'Friends of Happy Valley'. And the worst they apparently find is petrol and some old guns? Some random 17yr old kid in Finland just killed more people than any terrorist ever has in New Zealand or Australia. Aramoana has connections to Finland - David Gray was a loser who was into WWII, Nazi reading like the Finnish guy. I remember at the time, being totally not surprised at the shooting as I had meet some other nutters earlier who were obsessed with guns & thought a mass shooting would happen sooner or later. Infact I suspect I met Gray at a bookshop one day in Dunedin - I remember some very boring/obsessive guy talking to the owner while I was trying to buy some 2nd hand books. After Gray (sadly not before), things like Ak47 replica's 'military style semi-automatics' got much better controlled. Results speak for themselves (and in Australia). Publicity of suicides like in Finland don't help avoid more shooting; but publicity is hard to stop. Seriously though, WTF is going on when people think its a good idea for a school-kid to own a hand-gun and lots of ammo? Take away the gun & you have another anti-social kid make bad threats on youtube; add guns & you have dead bodies.

Re:NZ

[dafing]

And I'm in Invercargill. I didnt find Out of the Blue that interesting, its going to be on 3 in a couple of days. Oh sure, its very "kiwiana" all the shops, and I think watties sauce etc, but as a shocking movie like it was built up to be, it wasnt anything to bother with. I found it boring as hell as the start is Gray getting picked on by everyone around him, kids in the back of the school bus as he rides his bike, and getting no respect from his neighbours. Until halfway through he takes his gun out and you know what happens from there. The second half is "where is he" kind of thing, old people who cant make it to a phone, people stuck inside, police saying "whats going on". He was just hiding inside one of the cribs the whole time. Not very interesting as a movie and as a documentary it wasnt factual about a few things. I felt very sad for Gray as the start of the movie makes it look as if people are winding him up, easy to spot things in hindsight of course, and I didnt like the rest of the townspeople. All they were doing was "where is he?" for a few hours. No real leadership against him and he wasnt really that dangerous seeming, since he seems to have been hiding in little shacks eating baked beans if my memory serves correctly. Dont get me wrong, I do feel for the real victims. I just dont like the movie at all.

Have you ever visited the site of the shootings? Its a very backwards, classic NZ sort of place. felt like it belonged in Te Papa, just these tiny little sheds of houses, and a nice pier. The roads all around are pretty crazy, very windy and narrow, cant imagine swat trucks zooming around the bends!

Interesting that you might have met him.

Reckon fireworks will be banned now? I think its a joke the response to the public display that went wrong, three kids trampled? a grown man in tears about how awful it was? His daughter cant sleep because of "the monster"?

"Blame Canada..."

[Tug3]

This looser actually did start shooting people yesterday. And naturally, because being a sad looser, he couldn't take any responsibility for his actions, but shot himself at the end. - But being a total looser, he couldn't even do that properly. - I really hope he doesn't die, but has to face reality and the parents of the kids he killed. - I also hope he will live a long, and in the jail have long nightmares about the kids he killed.

And being a pitiful looser, he also blaimed the society for his actions. "The society" is so bad, he had to kill people. - News flash: The thing wrong with the society is exactly the loosers like this one! - Saddest thing is, they usually fail to notice that.

Re:"Blame Canada..."

[notareal]

Young, intelligent, alienated and angry, sure he had to blame someone.

Just to clarify

[Chuck Chunder]

I seem to have left out a word, "It's the same thing" was meant to be "It's not the same thing".

Ask Vic & Bob

[vain gloria]

I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?

It's not a cheese, it's a residue! But there's a more sinister side, here's Vic to tell you about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht1vouSNy4I

He was a MIND CONTROL SLAVE

[CranberryKing]

Outside of the usual signs, it is becoming more obvious since they are now using a template. There was almost nothing unique about this event compared to the more recent ones. They trigger one of their victims when they need to have pressure for a government to push through a new piece of legislation. Or else one of the students was a high value target (less likely). This newer template of the assassin always killing himself in the end is much easier than the old days where they would have to have a 3rd party kill the assassin (Oswald, although he was not the killer but that's that), or work very hard to make sure that no one ever spoke with the assassin to discover that he has no memory of the event (Sirhan Sirhan, McViegh).

Believe it.

Sturmgeist was listed among his favorite bands

[grimJester]

On his YouTube page, along with at least KMFDM and Rammstein. I didn't save the page.

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[Anonymous Coward]

A View to a Kill? That's one crap Bond movie, almost on par with Moonraker. Had he chosen For Your Eyes Only, at least...

don't blame the media

[commodoresloat]

Blame the media. I mean what the hell - he says "Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war" ... then he has a list of the movies he sees, the music he listens to, the games he plays and the books he reads. Of course he's giving the media something to talk about -- as is any modern day school shooter or mass murderer.

Re:don't blame the media

[edraven]

I personally like the part where he says he didn't tell anybody about his plans. Oh, crap, unless anybody read my profile on YouTube!

MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

These are the reasons this individual killed himself as well as others. Very important stuff!

The funny thing here is, I'm also from finland, male born in 1980, educated in university and have had many of the same thoughts as this guy. At one point I thought I'd go to the university main building lobby and blow off my head with a shotgun. It's a sick society all right.

sed-based reactive armor.

[joebob2000]

s/shooted/shooter/

Is there a difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Correction

[hopopee]

The video titled "Jokela High School Massacre 11/7" was actually uploaded on the 6th, not two weeks before. Old media guys are illiterate when it comes to new media, it seems. (He joined YouTube with the new account two weeks ago)

That's "loser", not "looser"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's "loser", not "looser" five times.

Jesus.

Re:Nazi UK and the Stalinists

[dgr73]

Now, correct me if i'm wrong, but pre-WW2, the biggest threat to world peace war not Hitler and nazism, it was Stalin and communism. The Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty of '39 produced an alliance of unprecedented power and it's secret clauses divided europe into zones of interest.

Before even this happened, UK and the rest of the western world had bowed to nazi demands more than once, notably on the case of Czechoslovakia who was their ally (see Munich Betrayal), an independent nation that was given to Germany piecemeal to provide the people of Britain and France with peace.

Now, does this make UK and France Nazi countries? An independent observer might think so somehow. Not that the betrayal of allies ends there. Though war was declared against Germany over the invasion of Poland, no overt action was really taken. And when the Soviet Union invaded, there was no declaration of war or hostilities. In fact, prominent British nazis were interned, but not prominent communists. Does this make UK a Stalinist country?

After Finland gets attacked by Soviet Union in winter of '39, it is bombarded, by "bread baskets" from the USSR and by sympathetic rhetoric and promises of aid from the western powers. A plan is even hatched by the British and French to "help Finland" by landing in northern Norway and seizing the ore deposits in northern Sweden, virtually guaranteeing a German response (and turning Scandinavia into a proxy battlefield).

You can argue that all these moves were necessary to protect UK from another world war. But if actions of questionable morality can be justified by the good of the country, they make sense.

Now for the case of Finland and the Nazis:

One of the major contributors of tangible (not rhetorical) aid to Finland is actually Fascist Italy. With western aid being limited to obsolete equipment bought at hard currency and delivered too late and with no spare parts. Germany, while officially neutral, permits aid to Finland to pass through it's territory, something many other countries don't allow.

Surrounded by two "evil", allied, regimes, one leading a historical foe (which in '41 was already demanding more concessions on top of those gained in the Winter War) and one leading a historical ally, is it a wonder if a German proposition of offering military equipment in return of rights-of-passage to Norway and use of some military bases was accepted?

In short, it is not just a case of being between a rock and a hard place. It's also seeing how the game of realpolitik is played, with little or no regard for morality to safeguard one's own interests. Each of the belligerents of WW2 were allied to an evil dictatorship at some point in the war, some even to both of them at different points in time. The fact that post-war propaganda makes Soviet Union a "victim" and a "lesser evil" is just winner's history. You can actually get a fairly unbiased view of the war in Europe from the book "Europe at War" by Norman Davies. However if you like your history black and white, do not read the book, it will only serve to ruin your view of the world.

4chan

[puneypunk]

I saw all this stuff appear yesterday (youtube and the first news reports in finnish) on 4chan, literally minutes after the event. The normal news networks didn't catch up for nearly 8 hours.

The fallacy of superiority

[master_p]

From reading the manifesto is clear that the guy had created the idea in his mind that he is superior to other people, and since only superior people must be allowed to live, he had a duty to exterminate the inferior ones.

That's total outright craziness, of course.

My question is: why people around him did not realize he was a nutjob? didn't he show his ideas to his parents, friends, and most importantly, his school?

Why nobody paid attention to the obvious?

Troll.

[SatanicPuppy]

Waterboarding? Oh yea, that's going to work. Getting good intel via torture is almost impossible, despite what the movies have told you.

When everyone knows that the plane is going to crash into something, you think everyone will sit tight for a pocketknife? Doubt it.

Everything is either occasional, constant, or impossible. Imagining that we'll stop all attacks is naive.

Here come the lawsuits....

[Healyhatman]

How long do we think until someone blames google and says "you should have KNOWN this was going to happen, it's your fault! Creds plx!" Just because it was on their site wouldn't mean they KNEW it was there.... And if it's their fault it's as much everyone else's fault who saw the video and did nothing.

Re:Here come the lawsuits....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm not for suing them, but they COULD have known.

Google (aka carnivore) has all the necessary information to profile and identify such individuals.

He probably not only:
-uploaded all these videos and content in you tube
-used gmail and google talk to communicate
-used google search engines to research school shootings, look for guns, methods etc
-used google maps to research the site
Odds are he even had google desktop installed which gives them access to all of his personal data basically.

How hard would it be to crosscheck these a bit? Like they do for "marketing research"

You know:
-Keeps checking violent videos in you tube - score 1
-Keeps sending email to people with references to violence, guns, high school massacres - score 2
-Searches obssessively about guns, high school massacres - score 3
-Is shopping online fore guns - score 4
-Keeps surveying highschool in google maps - red alert
-Has a bunch of files linked to high school shootings on his computer. Also some "warning sign" songs and such - we have a winner

Anyway, kind of scary, when you think about it - all the stuff they know. None of these things individually sound necessarily alarming, but all put together make almost a 100% match.

Should work on terrorists too?

The pattern repeats

[Anonymous Coward]

The Jokela school shooter :

- bullied for a long time CHECK
- lonely CHECK
- depressed CHECK
- weltschmerz CHECK
- gotten off his meds (SSRI) recently CHECK
- recently broken off with his gf CHECK
- hung around with total nut-jobs on the net CHECK
- had access to guns CHECK

The same patterns more or less as @ Columbine, Virginia Tech, Rauma, etc.

Not saying this was foreseeable, but in hindsight they are quite similar in many ways.

Sad, for the shooter and esp. for the victims and their families.

if this is fake

[Chris whatever]

Shit any asshole kid or adult stupid enough to leave death threaths on the internet and not thinking that it will be traceable to him or her should be lobotomized ans used as lab rats.

let's not kid ourselves

[inline_four]

The society that legitimately or not feels it needs to have a measure of protection from people going off the deep end needs to make a very difficult choice: is it concerned with mental health of its members in general or is it only concerned with those that get violent? No one seems to be talking about it, yet there are laws that stride both sides of this fence, usually in contradictory and ineffective fashion. I'm not suggesting I know what the answer should be, but I believe a choice has to be made, at least on the legislative level.

MOD PARENT UP

[turly]

...please. Well said, dgr73.

And 89 is? Re:Real reason for his name...

[objekt]

And 89 is the number of videos he posted to youtube.

While I'm here, I see a lot of knee-jerk reacions to other knee-jerk reactions.
Of course we shouldn't throw everyone in jail who makes a violent video or writes a violent paper. What we need is some common sense. Lacking that, we can come up with an arbitrary numeric threshold of suspicious actions required before we investigate someone. I propose that number be 88.

Worse?

[Anonymous Coward]

How did we ever get into this game of "this tragedy was worse than that one!" anyhow? Because there's a special word for the Holocaust? So what?

"We shouldn't try to learn anything from this tragedy, because doing that would mean we have to ignore the previous ones," is what I'm hearing. And that's such an unintelligible argument that I can't believe anyone is arguing it. "The Jews don't deserve any sympathy because other people deserve it too!" isn't any better.

What the hell is the argument here? Why?

Date format

[NoseyNick]

'Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007.'? I thought Finland used little-endian date format 7/11/2007, or even ISO format 2007-11-07? Did a Fin really use the screwey US-style middle-endian date format? Or was this really back on July 11th?

a "prediction" by a complete asshole

[Anonymous Coward]

The asshole that made that prediction has actively sought out disturbed people and harrassed them. Not that it's his fault that they were disturbed but now he's trying to reap rewards of actions that he should be ashamed of. Check out these replies to it instead:
- this should put his prediction into context
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nWnUtJ-w-6E
- and here's something the asshole should think about
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VU_VL3B8NCg&watch_response

Of every on he hated ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... why didn't he hate the consumerists queuing over night to buy an iPhone?

They where lining up for it.

Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone keeps saying this guy was insane. I think he was a bit drastic and should have shared his views before doing what he did, but I understand his post and partially agree with it. If you look at books he's read, his ideas seem to be along the lines of us letting so many people live that normally would have died. Our gene pool is a melting pot which can be good for any new gene diseases that would wipe out the whole race, but at the same time we are no longer evolving. With science we may be able to help ourselves improve with evolution through gene therapy, but for the most part only the rich could afford that hence his take on tyranny.

Apparently the guy was really effected by this thought and it sent him into a deep depression where the only way out of it he saw was to try to solve this by himself and left that nice little note you posted.

So for those trying to figure out why he did it, I think it's quiet obvious. It's simply another case of someone getting depressed with reality and not being able to hand the current affairs.