Slashdot Mirror


NJ Blogger Fights for Anonymous Free Speech

Ponca City, We Love You writes "A New Jersey blogger is fighting for his right to blog anonymously and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has asked a Superior Court judge in New Jersey to preserve the blogger's free speech rights as he faces legal threats from local government officials. On June 13, 2007, the New Jersey Township of Manalapan filed a malpractice suit against its former attorney Stuart Moskovitz, alleging misconduct regarding the Township's purchase of polluted land in 2005. The decision to file suit was met by a lively debate in the regional press and among local bloggers. One blogger who was particularly critical of the Township was datruthsquad. Attorneys for the Township issued a subpoena to Google demanding that the identity of this anonymous critic be turned over, along with datruthsquad's contact information, blog drafts, e-mails, and 'any and all information related to the blog.' Despite repeated requests from EFF to explain how this could be anything other than an attempt to out a vocal critic, attorneys for the Township have refused to withdraw the subpoena and informed EFF that it can go to court to object to the subpoena. In a motion to quash the subpoena, EFF has asked the court to block the township [PDF] in its attempt to uncover the identity of 'daTruthSquad' and allow the blogger to continue to write about this or any other issue without being forced to identity him or herself."

64 of 406 comments (clear)

  1. You are free to say anything you want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But if you are slanderous or libelous, you should be held accountable.

    1. Re:You are free to say anything you want by ZWithaPGGB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Public officials should not be protected in this way. They protect themselves with "Parliamentary Privilege", so they should not have protection from others.

      In New Jersey, being identified as the person who outed corrupt officials could be lethal (mob).

    2. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Beavertank · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok, but before you get to dig through all of my personal information and destroy my anonymity you have to prove libel occurred.

      Were the things I said injurious to the character and reputation of a person/organization? Were the things I said untrue?

      If the answer to either of those is no you can take your accountability and go straight to hell.

    3. Re:You are free to say anything you want by djasbestos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed...I don't think it should be considered a tort if Lewis Black calls George Bush an asshole.

      And datruthsquad doesn't seem at all libelous or slanderous (from what I read on his blog), so it sounds like a vindictive city council. Which, needless to say, is bullshit.

    4. Re:You are free to say anything you want by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you don't turn up to court to defend your writing against libel, if wouldn't be terribly difficult for a court to find most things injurious to the character and reputation of a person/organization. The paradox is that without a defence, you're not likely to be cleared but to mount a defence you have to give up anonymity. Hence why these things can't really have initial hearings. Only chance is if a judge thinks there's no case to answer.

    5. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Maljin+Jolt · · Score: 2, Funny

      But if you are slanderous or libelous, you should be held accountable.

      Thank you for accountable informative comment, dear Anonymous Coward!

      --
      There you are, staring at me again.
    6. Re:You are free to say anything you want by module0000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IANAL.
      Do you have to be present in the courtroom yourself, or can your attorney represent you without your actual presence being required in this type of suit?
      Would a judge not see through their attempt to forcibly his/her anonymity by getting him to show up in court?

      --
      Trackball users will be first against the wall.
    7. Re:You are free to say anything you want by andy314159pi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      destroy my anonymity you have to prove libel occurred.

      IANAL

      You have to prove more than just libel...
      you have to prove that there was no malice in the intention, that you were not presenting an opinion (that you were presenting your statements as pure facts), and that the statements were false.
      IANAL
    8. Re:You are free to say anything you want by brjndr · · Score: 4, Informative

      IAAL, but not in New Jersey. This is a general synopsis, not specific to any state. Check with a lawyer to determine your own situation. Usually....

      The truth is an absolute defense to defamation.

      You have the other part wrong. The burden is on the plaintiff to show that there was malice, not on the defendant to show there wasn't. And that is only if the person defamed is a public figure. A city counsel person should be a public figure. Normal people who are defamed usually don't have to show malice.

    9. Re:You are free to say anything you want by vertinox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But if you are slanderous or libelous, you should be held accountable.

      The problem if you get rid of the ability of slandering while anonymous you also remove the ability to tell the truth while being anonymous.

      Throughout western history the ability to publish works anonymous has brought about great social changes during great repression by central authority. Eramus was often thought to have written works criticizing the Pope for his militant ways during a time when such texts would result in torture and/or burning at the stake.

      Many of the Founding Fathers wrote works with pseudonyms in order to escape persecution from British authorities. In Eastern Europe during Soviet Occupation, anonymous pamphlets, shortwave radio broadcasts, and later fax machines were the only way to speak out against the repression.

      Libel and slander are a bad thing, but they are small price to pay for having anonymity that lets you speak the truth when things are really that bad but you fear for your life or your family.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    10. Re:You are free to say anything you want by nomadic · · Score: 4, Informative

      IAAL. But if anyone takes this as legal advice you're on crack.

      The issue here is the subpoena is aimed at Google, not the anonymous person. I know in the federal courts a party can't object to a subpoena issued to a third party, unless the former has some sort of private right in the information/documents sought. In this case it might be, I don't know what any contract or license says regarding google's privacy policy. But in most places it would be up to Google to object to the subpoena, not the individual.

    11. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed...I don't think it should be considered a tort if Lewis Black calls George Bush an asshole.

      According to the Supreme Court decision in Falwell v. Flynt, that wouldn't be susceptible to libel because no one would interpret that literally to mean that George Bush is actually a sphincter. However, if you say that George Bush has embezzled a billion dollars, that would be libel if it's not true.

      That's not to weigh in on this case, but there's some delineation between obvious insults and actual slander.

    12. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      no one would interpret that literally to mean that George Bush is actually a sphincter.

      I'm not so sure. I think I could be persuaded to interpret that literally.
    13. Re:You are free to say anything you want by mdielmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Writing anonymously isn't against the law. So the question is, is the blogger straying from facts, or portraying opinions as facts? If he isn't doing those in his blog, then whatever he's doing out of his blog has little or no bearing. After all, if they knew who he was, they wouldn't be asking these questions.
      Besides, if the RIAA has taught me one thing, it's that cases can be brought against John/Jane Does where it can be decided that there is enough merit to do so, and then the name can be subpoenaed. Granted, it seems that threshold is pretty low.

      In short, if they haven't tried to bring a case of libel against 'daTruthSquad' as a John Doe, the subpoena is probably a chilling tactic.

      No, I didn't read the article, and IANAL. This is /., and uninformed opinions are enshrined.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    14. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Kingrames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, it's okay to say anything as long as you approve of it.

      Bullshit.
      The first and fifth amendments to the United states constitution both apply here.
      1. I can say whatever the fuck I want, without worrying about the consequences of doing so, because, damnit, it's absolutely necessary to preserve my other rights.

      5. My words cannot be used against me in any court of law. If you intend to convict me of a crime, you need goddamn evidence. Testimony of any kind is UNRELIABLE no matter what. To ask someone to testify against themselves KNOWING:
      a) they were not sworn to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help them god when they were bragging to their friends about the fish they caught or the derring-do's they've done or the women they've slept with.
      b) I have a constitutional right to lie when I am out and about and having fun.
      c) I may be wrong.
      d) My attorney has advised me to admit to a crime I did not commit and hope for a plea bargain because 100% of all of the people of my skin tone and background and neighborhood who are charged with a crime are convicted.
      e) You cannot even guarantee with 100% certainty that I am telling the truth if you have me in a large, claustrophobia-inducing machine that SCANS MY BRAIN.

      Does it shock you to find out that nearly every single person convicted based on a confession while their attorney was present may in fact be innocent? It's true (and proven) in over 45% of the cases.

      The problem is simple:
      There is no way for this person to prove their innocence, and they are being judged by the people who will render a verdict based on the crime dramas they watch.
      They are motivated to confess because their life would be better off behind bars and they would not be such a huge financial burden to their families.

      As soon as a person's own testimony of any kind is used against them, their rights have been violated, for no other reason than that "somebody has to pay."

      You really need to stop assuming that these people are guilty, nothing good comes from that.

      So no. you should not be held accountable for what you say. Every single fucking word that comes out of your mouth is free. And it should stay that way. It should never be used as evidence in any way, shape or form, ever.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    15. Re:You are free to say anything you want by beckerist · · Score: 2, Informative

      To sum your post up concisely: the difference is the objectivity of the statement. You can't be charged/arrested for having an opinion. You CAN be charged/arrested for an untrue objective statement.

    16. Re:You are free to say anything you want by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It would seem to me that to the extent that the township has any right to this information (the township claims to believe that the blogger is the defendant, in which case it is possible that there are comments on the blog that will have bearing on the defendant's testimony), there are two possible reasonable answers. First, and preferable, Google is compelled to answer whether the blogger is indeed the defendant. If the answer is no, end of story. Second, and only acceptable if there is reason to believe that Google does not definitively know who the blogger really is, have Google present the information it has about the identity of the blogger to a neutral third party (the judge in the case, an appellate judge, a federal judge, other options could be suggested). Again if the third party concludes that the blogger is not the defendant, end of story.
      However, I suspect that EFF is correct, and the township is trying to find out who the blogger is in order to penalize the blogger at some later date.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    17. Re:You are free to say anything you want by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Criticism is fine. But there is a problem when an honest political candidate is attacked by people working for a dishonest one. Discrediting that person with exaggeration or out right lies. I think Barack Obama is feeling the effects of these dirty politics.

      I'm fine with laws if they apply equally to everyone. While at the same time I do feel that it is my right to criticize public figures without fear of retribution. But the tricky bit is when someone like me is critical of a public figure, it comes off as one man's opinion. While when an elaborate plot to discredit a rival's reputation can appear to the layman as factual evidence. Such is the case where the news media is used to do certain presidential candidates dirty work.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    18. Re:You are free to say anything you want by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The problem if you get rid of the ability of slandering while anonymous you also remove the ability to tell the truth while being anonymous."

      If this premise is true, then the rest of the argument follows. Can you provide evidence that this is the case? Citing examples of outright oppression does not provide any support to your assumption, as there was an absolutely no intent to separate truth from fiction in those cases.

  2. Can you feel it? by scubamage · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First they can bully their way through to getting a critics name. Next they won't have to bully because it'll become common practice. Its sad... can anyone else feel it? One by one our freedoms are being taken away, and the majority of the American populace is too busy watching who is going to be the next American Idol or seeing who is Dancing with the Stars to give two shits. Its pathetic. This apathy and ignorance is probobly the biggest slap to the face to the founders of this country, even moreso than the current administrations' abuses of the constitution. If there are any fine, foxy Canadian ladies out there interested in adopting a cynical geek from the states, send me a PM, I can't stand living here anymore.

    1. Re:Can you feel it? by PrescriptionWarning · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are being just as bad as the apathetic by taking on a cut and run mentality. I'm sure the founders of this country would hate you even more for being aware of the problems and not trying to get them solved. It's one thing to be ignorant of issues and quite another to know the issues and turn away.

    2. Re:Can you feel it? by scubamage · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hmm, an uneducated answer. See, its hard to get citizenship elsewhere when you're massively in debt. However, there are very few uneducated jobs available in the US thanks to Clinton's push to have them eliminated. This leaves people no choice but to go to college, which for most people means tens of thousands of dollars in debt. This is my situation. So, as much as I would like to just renounce it, it isn't that easy (unless of course you're a troll who has nothing to really add to a conversation).

    3. Re:Can you feel it? by PrescriptionWarning · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      maybe nothing against anonymity, but it could be closely related to search and seizure of "digital papers"
    4. Re:Can you feel it? by techpawn · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you where trying to get across the point of a chilling effect but you lost me half way through your little diatribe...

      --
      Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    5. Re:Can you feel it? by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      maybe nothing against anonymity, but it could be closely related to search and seizure of "digital papers"

      You read the B of R the wrong way. The government can't go after you because the Constitution doesn't give it the power to search digital works. The BoR only is examples of your rights, not a sole enumeration of them.

      --
      This is my sig.
    6. Re:Can you feel it? by scubamage · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    7. Re:Can you feel it? by Grimbleton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pick up your rifle. Band together with others of like minds. March on your government.

      Once there are enough of us, we open fire.


      Figuratively speaking of course. Violence has never been the way to secure your freedom from a corrupt government.

    8. Re:Can you feel it? by scubamage · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is gravely important that you do it." - Ghandi

    9. Re:Can you feel it? by tompaulco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I wanted to do something about decreases in freedom of speech, I wouldn't even know where to start.
      Start by sending a letter to your local congresscritters. If they don't care about your privacy, then vote someone in who does. If there is no one to vote in that cares about your privacy, then get involved in politics. It's not as hard as it sounds. Unless you are in a really large city, there are probably empty board seats on the city council in which you could probably run unopposed.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    10. Re:Can you feel it? by Torodung · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This apathy and ignorance is probably the biggest slap to the face to the founders of this country, even moreso than the current administrations' abuses of the constitution. Yup. And any time we "refuse to discuss politics because it's stupid or biased or subjective," or claim that "all politicians are crooks," "nothing is done right in Washington" we add to that apathy, and turn more fully towards a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      Everyone telling you that any whole party in Washington is a cadre of crooks is, in fact, a crook trying to get you to surrender your political power. There are a few crooks, quite a few, but on the whole, many more of them do just as we ask them to, and their best despite that. We have the government that meets our superficial apathetic attitudes towards all things political.

      (*gets on soapbox*)

      My fellow Americans, do what you do best. Follow the money. There's several trillion dollars per annum tied up in politics, and all that money equals vast power. If we want our country back, we need to put politics back on the table, and drop this 1960's attitude that politics are for weenies and crooks. Politics are important and it is our civic duty to discuss the "State of the Union." All the corporations with lobbyists at Washington know this. We don't bother, because discussions about politics are "unsavory" and politicians are "worthless."

      The hippies were wrong. All the governments they formed have faded, or been incorporated. This huge government is still getting larger, and it is critical that its people demand its service.

      Sure, we might get into fist fights over it at a party, but everyone needs to put politics back on the table. Now. Fist fights be damned.

      --
      Toro
    11. Re:Can you feel it? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hey. Fuck you. You're the prime example of the idiotic reasoning that causes this problem in the first place!

      Here's a newsflash: the Constitution does not enumerate all freedoms. It merely reiterates a select few of them!

      Noticing that something isn't specifically prohibited by the Constitution doesn't mean the Federal government can do it; it just means it's not one of the particular examples Jefferson et. al. chose to give. On the contrary, the Federal government can do only those things which it is specifically allowed to do, because everything else -- everything else -- was reserved to the States or to the People!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re:Can you feel it? by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm, an uneducated answer. See, its hard to get citizenship elsewhere when you're massively in debt. Or when you have utterly no marketable skills and would be a drain on the economy of any country you moved to.

      However, there are very few uneducated jobs available in the US thanks to Clinton's push to have them eliminated. There are plenty of uneducated jobs available, at low salaries of course unless you have connections. Oh wait do you mean well paying, non-physical, safe and comfortable uneducated jobs? Yeah, blame Clinton not your own laziness or anything like that.

      This leaves people no choice but to go to college, which for most people means tens of thousands of dollars in debt. A trivial amount, if you're capable of working hard and living well within your means you can easily pay it back within a year or two of graduation.
    13. Re:Can you feel it? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A trivial amount, if you're capable of working hard and living well within your means you can easily pay it back within a year or two of graduation. 1) Did you go to college in the U.S.? and 2) Did you pay for your college education out of your own pocket?

      If the answer to either is "no," then I'd say you probably don't really know what you're saying. $30-50K is about average for a college education from a 4-year accredited private institution these days. A bit less if you go to a public school Unless you're willing/able to live with mom and dad for the first few years following your graduation, paying back that loan is a real bitch, especially when the economy ends up in the crapper following 9/11 and there are no jobs available with sufficient pay to both live on and pay back your loan. Then, when you end up not paying, the loan goes into to default, and you can forget about getting a mortgage on a house, getting a car loan, or anything else that 'normal' people do to make themselves financially stable that involves having good credit. Finally, the collection agencies catch up with you and make all kinds of nasty threats and try to force you into repayment programs you can't afford, so you have a nervous breakdown from all the stress.

      Not that I'm bitter or anything.

    14. Re:Can you feel it? by davetd02 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't stand living here anymore.

      This is hardly the first time in US history that local officials have bullied their way into a legal mess, and I'm sure it won't be the last. The difference is that the Internet makes it much easier for the EFF and other advocacy groups to publicize local abuses that in other eras would go completely unnoticed. The good news is that the court will resolve the dispute between EFF and the government according to our laws and constitution; we have a system of checks so that courts can stop overzealous government from infringing on individual rights. The court is working exactly as it is supposed to -- both sides are presenting their arguments and explaining why their actions are or are not legal.

      If you don't remember, the free press in this country has always been in tension with the demands of government. It's a constant back-and-forth that over time has led to a reasonably stable balance of protecting individual rights. The examples go very far back: In 1798 (yes, "seventeen-hundred and ninety-eight") the Alien and Sedition Acts made it illegal to criticize the government, on pain of criminal prosecution. Lincoln arrested three newspaper editors for publishing stories he didn't like (two for publishing the story and one because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time) and suspended publication of the same papers for two days. The Sedition Act of 1918 made it criminal to criticize the government during World War I (repealed 1921). The list goes on and on.

      National coverage of these issues is good, and the legal system is functioning as it should. One side is demanding more than the legal system can support and the EFF is properly standing up in a fair proceeding to stop it. The right answer isn't to leave the country, but to recognize that this is part of a long back-and-forth over rights that is an important part of American history. Have a sense of proportionality and your urge to flee will lessen. It's important that EFF fight the good fight here, but the fact that we're hearing about the story is a good sign -- it means the press is still doing its job. Anyway, you can do far more good here than in the vast frozen tundra of the far north.

    15. Re:Can you feel it? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

      --

      Ever day that passes I think more and more of these words. Over 200 years old and they're dead on. These guys knew what they were talking about. I'm also waiting on the day that "we" reach critical mass. Right now if I were to attempt this. I'd be a terrorist. Right now if I were to get 100 friends. We'd be terrorists. What happens when I get 1000 friends in every city. 10,000 friends. 100,000 friends?

      --

      Second. Politicians AND citizens seem to have forgotten who is boss. I don't work to serve a politician, a politician lives to serve me. If my boss walks into my office and says "You worthless piece of shit. You're useless. Get out and don't come back." I can't sue him. (Assuming he didn't come on to me, blah blah). I don't have a contract with my company. If at an annual performance review I'm told that I suck. I have to take it. I can't sue him because he doesn't think I'm doing my job right or he's critical of my job. I WORK FOR HIM.

      "People should not fear their government, their government should fear the people"

      Or more to the point:

      "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

    16. Re:Can you feel it? by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) Did you go to college in the U.S.? and 2) Did you pay for your college education out of your own pocket? Yup and mostly, financial aid paid most of it and a scholarship covered many odd expenses. I think in the end if not for the scholarship I'd have paid $30k or so for the whole thing. I worked summers, of course, to pay for some it.

      If the answer to either is "no," then I'd say you probably don't really know what you're saying. $30-50K is about average for a college education from a 4-year accredited private institution these days. Okay, I could easily pay off $30-$50k within 1 year of graduation if I needed to as that is (more or less) how much I put into saving within one year of graduation. Also I'm quite lazy, if I needed to I could have easily doubled that amount at the cost of my free time. See I went for a degree, statistics, that won't be outsource in 2 years and which not half my university is going for. I also got a masters because it's sort of silly to not make that extra investment in my field given the returns.

      A bit less if you go to a public school Unless you're willing/able to live with mom and dad for the first few years following your graduation, paying back that loan is a real bitch, especially when the economy ends up in the crapper following 9/11 and there are no jobs available with sufficient pay to both live on and pay back your loan. 9/11? Are you confusing the recession caused by the bubble bursting with 9/11?

      Also what sort of degree did you get, are you one of the idiots who didn't think or plan ahead and just went for whatever crap they "felt" would make them money? Have you tried moving to get a job? Have you worked your ass (ie: if you have free time you're not trying hard enough) off to make money?

      Then, when you end up not paying, the loan goes into to default, and you can forget about getting a mortgage on a house, getting a car loan, or anything else that 'normal' people do to make themselves financially stable that involves having good credit. Why would you need to do any of those things, do you have absolutely no financial planning ability at all? Pay for the car in cash, a cheap used car of course. You don't need a house, rent till you've paid off your debts. You're young (assuming you went to college after high school) and such frivolous wastes of money are unnecessary.
    17. Re:Can you feel it? by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As said above, there is no explicit right to anonymity, but I think there's a definitely a case for one, and one should be implicit.

      The original post bitched that all of our rights were being stripped away. Personally, and maybe I'm wrong here, I never knew we had a right to anonymity. I looked it up, but couldn't find it in the Constitution (as I said). If we do have the right to anonymity, then I need to go rip my name off my mail box and my license plate off my car! If the fourth amendment means that I can post speech in a public forum anonymously, then my name should not be in the county records as the owner of my address (take that property tax man!!). My marriage license should read "the bearer of this document is married to the other bearer of this document...". I should be able to buy a gun without telling people who I am!

      Assuming that anonymity is a right opens a big-ass can of worms that our system is not ready for. Everything from our jobs and homes and bank accounts to our credit scores and criminal records are tied to our identities. If we have a right to anonymity, then all of this goes away. How can I claim that I am the person who owns my home or that I am the parent of my child after someone sues the government to remove all names from public records? Having an identity is the complete opposite of anonymity. Identity is used to guarantee rights and protect property.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    18. Re:Can you feel it? by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Informative

      Its rather amazing what a government can do to you without actually putting you in prison. What is really amazing is how much you can do to them before they can put you in prison. Here in the US - despite the current trend toward tyranny - you can do a lot that would get you imprisioned or even executed in many other countries.
    19. Re:Can you feel it? by darkmeridian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Can we stop using the phrase "cut-and-run"? It's empty political rhetoric coopted by those who associate realism with cowardice.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    20. Re:Can you feel it? by Grandiloquence · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Specifically, they would have said:

      "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams

    21. Re:Can you feel it? by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Okay, I could easily pay off $30-$50k within 1 year of graduation if I needed to as that is (more or less) how much I put into saving within one year of graduation.

      What's amusing is that you honestly appear to think you're not an edge case, and that most graduates should be able to put aside $50,000 a year in savings. Apparently you believe that across the board, given a roughly twenty per cent tax rate, that the average wage of a college graduate is bearing in on $100,000.

      Wow.

      Really?

      Let's take a wee peek at MIT. Hardly a bottom of the barrel college, and bear in mind they only offer figures from 2003-2005. In 2003, of 115 four year graduates surveyed, not one made more than $94,000. The median was $54,000. 2004, still, no-one had topped a $100,000 salary, though the median climbed slightly. In 2005 a MIT graduate could expect to make $59,000 their first year out of college.

      And yet here you are, lambasting people for not being able to save $50,000 their first year out of college? I'm impressed.

    22. Re:Can you feel it? by scubamage · · Score: 2, Informative

      My apologies, I was pulling it from memory and I screwed up the adverb. The actual quote is: "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." I think your googleventures will be much easier :)

  3. Post Anonymously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I submit that we should all Post Anonymously to this thread in support.

  4. This one matters... by CodeShark · · Score: 5, Insightful
    To the extent that "all government is local", this is a very important case, because while Uncle Sam may be great big and far away, if you are in a small city or town and are critical and can be outed via a simple subpoena, then what's to stop the local city or town government from instructing the local chief of police to make sure you get more than your fair share of traffic tickets, building inspectors from condemning your home, power co. operators from playing with the juice, in short any or all other governmental or quasi-governmental person who stands to benefit from a critic being silenced from engaging in a pattern of harassment, deception, etc.?


    That said, with both the EFF and Google being against the subpoena, I don't really think that this stands a snowflake's chance in hell of surviving the legal challenges. And if the Superior Court judge gets it wrong, I would still see this going all the way to SCOTUS for resolution before the blogger would be outed.

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
    1. Re:This one matters... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's very, very sad when we trust a private corporation more than we trust our local goverment.

      You got that exactly backwards... it's very, very sad when people put trust in government -- ever. I'll take a private corporation that I can either do or don't do business with, over a government entity any day. You don't have any choice with the government.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
  5. That was dumb... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Interesting
    While agree with the EFF's premise (in that someone shouldn't be forced into identifying him/herself just because they've been vocal about a public issue), I have to wonder... WTF would the township do with the info?

    Sure, if the blogger turns out to be a public employee of said township, he/she would prolly be fired. Then again, the nanosecond after they did such a thing, esp. after outing him/her in such a public manner, would likely put themselves at substantial legal risk.

    But the main point for the township being stupid by doing it is this: what was once a thing that could be scoffed at as 'some guy on the Internet who knows nothing about this'... now has credence, credibility, and a firm aura of truth; all of which has now been granted to him/her/it by the township's idiot legal team.

    Personally, if Congress wants to do something useful (well...), they could work on something legislative-like that would prevent government-as-plaintiff in a civil suit from ever being allowed to out any anonymous posting, publication, or what-have-you.

    Man - some people just can't grok the concept of not using every tool they have for a difficult problem, simply because they're all there and sitting in the toolbox.

    /P

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:That was dumb... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are probably breaking three or four laws right now and you do not even know it.

      The township can make the guy's life hell-- can make his friend's lives hell so he loses his friends (assuming it is a guy).

      Ben Franklin would have been outed very early in his career under this standard.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    2. Re:That was dumb... by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then again, the nanosecond after they did such a thing, esp. after outing him/her in such a public manner, would likely put themselves at substantial legal risk.

      But with lawyers involved, thats not how it works. They would ignore him for awhile, giving the coworkers better performance reviews (not bad for the employee, but better for the others) ensuring the others get promotions. They would slowly change the scope of work of the employee, to set them up to fail. They would also start doing LOTS of random audits of his department, writing him up for making a personal call, hitting their banks website, etc. So that they will have a paper trail in the employee's file showing they were bad. Other co-workers would file complaints about little things, which would get added to the pile, etc. Basically, they will drive the employee so low that they will hate it, and quit.

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  6. Who do they think they are? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They should realize they are some small city government in New Jersey. They seem to think they are China. Only to China, Google and Yahoo will dutifully genuflect and bend over. Not to New Jersey.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  7. invasive and non-invasive postings by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Blogging, and writing web pages are non-invasive: I am not going to receive the material unless I search for it and select it. Non-invasive postings are like a newspaper in that respect. If I don't like your newspaper I don't subscribe and after that if you continue to drop it off on me that is littering. anonymous non-invasive postings are fine eMails, phone calls, FAXs, and executable codes are INVASIVE. If you bust through my door without identifying yourself and stating your business I like to put a boot in the seat of your pants. we have already won on FAXs and on Caller-ID. Next will be eMails and executable codes. NO SIGNATURE? NO EXECUTE.

  8. Par for the course by Billosaur · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Welcome to the Garden State. Never let it be said local officials were ever too happy about having their judgment questioned. When it comes to mayors, school boards, and township committees, N.J. is a hotbed for corruption, and whenever someone calls someone else out, there's always some under-handed move by local government to quash the opposition. The sad part is, despite his campaign promises, out illustrious governor hasn't done a damned thing about political corruption on any level in New Jersey.

    I frankly don't think this subpoena has a chance in hell of surviving, but I do feel it's going to have to go pretty far up the chain before it gets choked off. NJ just has the kind of effect.

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
  9. The Constitution describes GOVERNMENT's power. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What freedoms are lost? I've scoured the Constitution and Right to Anonymity is not listed there.

    Here's a free clue.

    The Constitution is not about listing the "Freedoms" a citizen has.

    The People have ALL the Freedoms. Inherently.

    The Constitution defines under what conditions the government can infringe upon those Freedoms.

    You have it 180 degrees BACKWARDS.
    1. Re:The Constitution describes GOVERNMENT's power. by EngMedic · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Marbury v. Madison

      [The constitution] organizes the government, and assigns to different departments their respective powers. It may either stop here; or establish certain limits not to be transcended by those departments.

      The government of the United States is of the latter description. The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the constitution is written. To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing; if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?
      --
      filter: +3. Hey, look! all the trolls went away!
  10. Does Anonymity create more or less truth? by olddotter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ok maybe this is an tangential question to the subject. But I'm wondering does the ability to post anonymously create more truthful revelation because people are not afraid of retribution? Or does it create more bogus BS because people know they can't be held accountable?

    1. Re:Does Anonymity create more or less truth? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the internet most anonymous stuff is considered noise unless it has very good references. How much credit would you put on a picture of a public official with marker colored mustaches on it in a public bathroom? That level of public pamphleteering is so over used to be pointless... much of the internet is the same way.

      Look at Paula Jones of GrokLaw. She? is relatively anonymous so why should we credit her? But we do credit her because she produces official certified documents that are available publicly, if you know where to look. We can independently verify her claims, and then her opinion has value even if we don't know who she is. This is the same as Ben Franklin's early writings in secret, under a pen name as well as several others at the time of the American Revolution.

      My opinion is that an anonymous site like this is either childish noise, or it's accurate. If public officials are after it for "noise" they could simply request it to be removed and show Google facts that support their position. The need to "out" this poster means somebody is hitting the mark, and being taken seriously.. In that respect they should answer the requests to the satisfaction of the public and this guy will go back to being noise. If the person does have real dirt, then they would be a protected whistleblower.

      Given the situation, where a public body bought "poisoned" land, and it appears the lawyer did not do due diligence, there is a good deal of criticism in order as Federal and State laws don't protect the local government from responsibility.. they could be sued for millions tomorrow by the EPA even though they just bought the land! It's been 20 years of these environmental laws and a lawyer not presenting this evidence is either extremely negligent or in on the deal with somebody that owns the property perhaps on the council... there's not a lot of middle ground for "simple error" here.

  11. Bearing on the case? by Xchagger · · Score: 3, Informative
    According to the article, they are attempting to discover the bloggers identity not to call them out or persecute them, but to make sure it isn't the defendant in the case.

    The township subpoenaed Google for "daTruthSquad's" identity -- as well as for any emails, blog drafts, and other information Google has about the blogger -- claiming that the defendant in the case is actually writing the posts. The defendant, however, has already sworn under penalty of perjury that he is not "daTruthSquad." Why this was left out of the article summary, I am not sure. While I don't personally think that giving away the person's identity is right, I do think the prosecutors have the right to know whether or not the defendant is posting these blogs to cause a big ruckos and to support their cause. Especially since the defendant has already testified it is not them. If they lied, they are guilty of purjury. If google could just verify that the blogger is not infact the defendant, I think that would be fair enough.
    1. Re:Bearing on the case? by Xchagger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you are involved in the case, yes, you should have to divulge your identity. If the blogger is not involved in the case, their anonymity should be safe. Hence why I said, at best, Google should have to divulge whether or not it is the defendant. If it is, they are guilty of perjury, if not, then the person remains anonymous. I'm sure legally it can't work that way. The law system has a tendancy to be all or nothing. Just saying that I believe the prosecuters have a right to know whether or not it is the defendant making the blogs. He said no under oath, that doesn't mean he wasn't lying. I believe they have a right to verify the truth when the information is available. I do not believe they should be privy to any information other than whether or not he was lying. If the law states they need all the information, not just the pertinent information, then no, they shouldn't have it. I do not know the law though.

  12. Prior restraint and pamphleteering by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Informative

    But if you are slanderous or libelous, you should be held accountable. I agree.
    The closest analog here I think is the issue of anonymous Pamphleteering. As I recall the common law is that you can do so anonymously. But there's also no right to that anonymity. That is, the Government or whom ever is not prevented from piercing your anonymity if they can.

    Additionally there's the common law of prior restraint. With few exceptions, the government cannot act to prevent you from saying something that would be illegal or uncivil for you to say.

    Thus the desire to prevent you from speaking something can't be ground for the government to require non-anonymous speech.

    On the other hand the soapboxes we use to connect to the web are all owned by entitites. Those entitities can set up their own rules and policies. And one of those could be non anaoymous free speech.

    I suppose other countries--not the USA-- may have different rules. Things may be different in china and stockholm.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  13. DON'T GET HYSTERICAL : Other Side of the Story by tjstork · · Score: 5, Informative

    EFF Twists Truth?

    David Weeks, an attorney representing Manalapan, says the foundation is twisting a routine legal request in a local lawsuit into a First Amendment case.
    "We're not asking to interfere with anyone's right to speak," Weeks said.
    Instead, Manalapan's attorneys are simply asking Google to establish whether Moskovitz was telling the truth when he denied he was the blogger in court papers related to the land deal lawsuit.
    "I don't know one way or the other if it's him," Weeks said. "It could be him."


    So, some facts:

    a) The guy getting sued is being sued because he didn't file EPA paperwork on a land deal. In NJ, that's pretty dumb, so he could be guilty of malpractice.
    b) The guy getting sued is actually the former mayor of the same county that is suing him.
    c) Yes, NJ is crooked.

    However, with that said, if DaTruthSquad is the former mayor, and he is posting on about stuff, he could be violating various other things, compromising a sealed case, who knows, and therefor, the government -does- have an interest in knowing if it is him.

    Note that the point is, Google isn't getting sued to see -who- DaTruthSquad is. Google is getting sued to reveal if the guy is the former mayor. Not to say that everyone is angelic, but, in all probability, DaTruthSquad is probably a crook himself.

    As Bob Dylan wrote: "In Jersey everything's legal, as long as you don't get caught."

    --
    This is my sig.
  14. I'm all for anonymity but what if... by vux984 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But what if the blogger is in fact the guy being sued for malpractice or someone directly involved in the case? Should that still be protected? Should someone be allowed to create 'sock puppet sympathizers' to defend them? To editorialize on their behalf? To criticize their opponents with impunity?

    Something seems wrong with that. When speaking anonymously its easy to say things because you have no personal accountability for what's said. That can be used for good and for evil. I'm not sure it should be automatically protected.

    After all, we'd be outraged if Walmart managers started series of grassroots anti-union blogs in a number of places... "I'm just an anonymous low level walmart employee like you whose against the unionization because... reason reason reason reason... and I'm posting anonymously because I fear retaliation from the union rabble rousers who just want to consolidate power for themselves. I we unionize they'll win, and we'll all lose. And then over the following weeks posted all kinds of stuff criticising the union organizers in every way imaginable."

    Each blog would repeat the others and manufacture 'truth by repetition'.

    There'd be no way to prove it was management, because of course:

    We must protect anonoymous online journalists!!111!

  15. Who is this guy? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Funny

    Can someone give me his name and address? I want to personally congratulate him on his noble crusade for anonymity!

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  16. Selective Enforcement by internic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are probably breaking three or four laws right now and you do not even know it.

    The township can make the guy's life hell-- can make his friend's lives hell so he loses his friends (assuming it is a guy).

    This is very likely true. To amplify this point, I can say that in my town (a small town of a little over 1000 homes) there are many laws about all sorts of ridiculous minutiae that are only selectively enforced. These include laws that say, for example, that your trash cans can't be visible from the road (unless it's trash day), regulate the length of your grass, etc. As an experiment, one day I walked around my area of the town (which does not seem to be exceptional in any way) and looked for violations of the ordinances. I found roughly one half of the houses I passed had a violation readily apparently from walking by on the road, and that was only based on the ones I remember off the top of my head. This completely ignores other issues like applying for permits, traffic tickets, etc.

    I think most localities have a lot of overly broad, unnecessary, largely unenforced laws like this which essentially mean the government (and other people with influence) have the de facto power to go after whomever they please. Thankfully, at least in my town, it's not currently used too often with too much malice. I'd like to see such laws repealed, but, based on town meetings I've been to, I don't think most other people see it that way.

    --
    "You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
  17. Re:Freedom of Spee... ah Responsibility by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Informative

    Rather than trying to find some cloak of invisibility he should be preparing his defence with his lawyer.
    You're not American, are you?

    It should be noted that America's laws re: libel and slander are much more permissive than those in Britain or most formerly British colonies.

    This is most certainly political speech, and anonymity is important to preserving free speech when fear of retribution is a factor (Talley v. California, 362 U.S. 60, 65 (1960).

    See Dendrite International, Inc. v. Doe No. 3, 775 A.2d 756, 771 (N.J. App.Div. 2001) for establishment of criteria underwhich the state of NJ can/should overturn the right of anonymity in favor of the defamation claims.

    It's also important to note that the NJ Constitution is even more protective of free speech rights than the US Constitution -- the state (and local governments) have much less right to abridge free speech in NJ.
    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  18. Silence Dogood anyone? by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In 1722 a series of letters appeared in the New-England Courant written by a middle-aged widow named 'Silence Dogood'. The letters poked fun at various aspects of life in colonial America, such as the drunkenness of locals and the fashion for hoop petticoats.

    Silence was particularly fond of ridiculing Harvard. She complained that it had been ruined by corruption and elitism, and that most of its students learned nothing there except how to be conceited.

    This was the first of many of Benjamin Franklin's hoaxes.

    So I'm guessing some of the founding fathers of our nation and at least this Signer of the Declaration of Independence would have this guys back. ;-)

    http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/pop_dogood.htm
    http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/dogood.html