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Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Stony Stevenson passed us a link to an IT News story about Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs. The company now wants to be able to run Windows XP on the highly-publicized and inexpensive portable. "Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. The XO, however, can only hold 1 Gbyte. As a result, Microsoft wants the XO's designers to add a slot through which more memory can be added via a secure digital (SD) card, Utzschneider said. Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate — which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software — has failed to catch on."
Ahhh, good old arrogance. Is there ever an opportunity for Microsoft to be arrogant that they won't pass up?
Negroponte might be ok with Microsoft's involvement, but unless they're willing to give it all away for free, OLPC can't actually afford it.
also, don't you love it when people who go out of their way to ruin a party decide it's ok for them to attend when no one shows up to theirs?
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
Microsoft will want Windows to run on any hardware they aren't actively trying to kill - it spreads their monopoly. If the OLPC project succeeds, it shifts from being a competitor to kill to a platform to run on.
Looks like their back to square one. Nice to see they're not making much progress.
They are probable horrified because if all the kids grow up on linux they will prefer linux in the future. I know I use windows more because that is what I learned when I was younger and so it is less work to get adjusted to the next version.
Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Yeah, and I want to get laid. Good luck to us both, but I'm pretty sure I'll get laid before Vista runs on an OLPC. In fact, when Vista runs on an OLPC I'm going to get one and play Duke Nukem 4ever on it.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Then they will have to change it to One Virus Per Child.
It seems to me that Microsoft has missed the point a little bit. The whole reason for the OLPC is to get as many laptops out there as possible. A redesign would take a long time, cost money, and have no real benefit. If they REALLLY wanted Windows on the OLPC they could redesign it do it would work on less than 1 gb of memory, but that's Logical.
One more thing to break, probably (including a 2GB SD card) a $40-$50 increase in cost per machine, for what advantage?
Given the nature of the machine, I don't see why MS should have any trouble shrinking XP to under 1GB.
Anyway, what help has MS given to the project and/or what help are they offering to make this request even remotely worth the consideration of the XO project?
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Let's say there was the capacity to add another gig of flash, and XP could run on it. How much educational software would then fit in the machine? How much development tools would fit for the kids to develop apps (I'm thinking specifically of the capabilities Squeak/EToys gives the XO here)? How secure would the grid computing model be?
I think Microsoft are looking at XO as a low cost laptop instead of as a delivery platform for education and collaboration.
OLPC with Windows XP!
Now children can read their books by cool blue light! Once the capabilities of the OLPC are bumped up to run Windows comfortably, they will also be able to heat their food* on the machine itself!
* Microsoft has declined to provide food.
Redesign the machine to fit our OS.
Classic.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Then I guess I'm a "purist" on this one. An internal SD slot would be nice, but then so would a Core 2 Duo... you have to draw the line and when you're shooting for $100 you have to draw it very soon. I don't think the OLPC will succeed by conforming to Wintel; by definition, if Microsoft really understood this niche, it wouldn't exist for OLPC to fill!
External connectors
(...)
- Flash Expansion: SD Card slot.
See also: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/SD .Such a project was no priority until Negroponte and others made OLPC come to the fore.
Too bad that back around '96 we only heard fudware/vaporware from the likes of and from ms when others kept demanding smaller windows footprint in disk space, RAM, and other resources. When competition fell and died, ms never really followed through.
Now, with virtualization (WINE, Win4Lin, VMWare, Virtual Box, Bochs, et al), numerous terminal setups, kiosk modes, a besieging amount of Open Source software, populous countries with attractive budgets, and other factors make ms just go into me-too, and copy-cat mode, innovation being just a buzzword to check off on marketing brochures and bandy in conventions.
Now, if only Open Source developers would somehow garner the attention of human interface design and make thinks vastly more polished and less rickety/designed-for-the-nerdgineer, and if people like myself (non-developers) could make use of Eclipse, Glade, Trolltech's software, and things like that, we could spark a whole new renaissance of non-ms stuff that could level the playing field.
How dare ms try to push manufacturers to add more than Linux requires to get OLPC out there. This is just to dick up the manufacturing process to delay boxes otherwise slated for OLPC assembly and deployment, at least as I see it...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Luckily Mr. Negroponte is an intelligent man who is not interested in profits, but in doing the right thing, and can happily tell them to fuck the hell off.
That's what I'd do anyway.
Who in the right mind would try to educate young kids about computers while using Windows?
Yes, a lot of us new geeks started on Windows, but as soon as we got to "know Unix" we jumped that crappy ship and never looked back.
GNU/Linux and FOSS are the way of the future. It's like p2p networks and RIAA. You can't magically stop the spread of open knowledge.
Negroponte will give them a stable and innovative learning platform that will benefit both their computing skills and more importantly their general education and knowledge.
Just the other day I thought about making a bumper sticker or a shirt that says "Microsoft is the reason you suck at computers."
(I've just trademarked that.) (Or is it copyrighted? WTH, I'll do both.)
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
1 Gbyte should be enough for anyone :-)
You want a low cost computer to give to the children of the world that runs XP? You're sitting on billions of capital. Your ex-CEO runs a worldwide charity. You have manufacturing experience with the XBox360. You have industry alliances with all the major chip manufacturers.
Why don't you BUILD one? I'm sure you could make it "better" and you'd have a whole new customer base. You could even lock out competitors.
Or better yet, why dontcha give away copies of Windows CE? That runs under a gig... doesn't it?
The article continues: "A Microsoft spokesperson has confirmed that a Vista-Capable OLPC release is in the works. The laptop will run Remote Desktop, connecting over the wireless network to a server running Windows Vista."
Microsoft's only argument seems to be that there's lots of educational software written for Windows that becomes available this way. But if the OLPC becomes very widespread, surely those programs will be adapted for the OLPC. If the OLPC doesn't have Windows, the software will be adapted to the Windows-less OLPC.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Now, I'm no fan of microsoft, but they have a not-too-bad embedded OS
Why, I love Microsoft! When it comes to truth in advertising, their product names are the absolutely most truthful. Who but MS would name their media player WiMP? Or an OS WinCE? God these guys are hilarious! Or the bloated eye candy OS "Vista"!!!
God I love those guys! Too bad I have to use their software though...
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
So, Microsoft wants the XO to run their operating system? Are they willing to release the source code to Windows XP *and* let kids rewrite it??
This isn't merely Microsoft wanting to change one little hardware spec. The ramifications are that the laptops will probably require more power to run that extra SD slot; the laptop will cost more for the redesign, re-molding, extra parts; the whole philosophy of the software will change and the kid's desire to explore and tinker stifled. I don't think Microsoft cares beyond a "developing countries == potential market" attitude...
p.s. If you want to buy an XO, that's also the link: http://www.laptopgiving.org/
Microsoft don't charge other people what they charge you for Windows. You see, they know you're a sucker so you get to pay the most.
Deleted
"Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs"
From: OLPC
To: Microsoft
re: Redesign
Dear Microsoft,
Our design works for us. It's set. We won't change it. Would would, however, be willing to offer XP as an alternate operating system. You'll just need to redesign it to fit our needs.
Sincerely,
The XO team
P.S.: Sorry to hear about the Classmate.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I agree... if MS is willing to subsidize the extra cost associated with the upgraded design and will give the "shrunken" Windows XP to the project for free as an optional choice for those who wish to use it instead of the custom OS, then there's no reason to refuse. However, if it would add 1 cent to the project, or adds any type of restriction at all, I think the response to the request should be an emphatic "No."
As another spoof video once pointed out, if you arrange the OS releases in the right order, you get Windows CE/ME/NT
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
1. You're are not legally allowed to share it with your friends, not even for educational use!
2. Viruses/Spyware - this is a computer designed to give new users an introduction to computing, and a tool for education, can you imagine the grief virii would cause here, especially in a mass scale / network environment.
3. Cost.
4. Linux is not communism, Vendor lock-in is.
I'm a sysadmin at a school in South Africa, the funding is poor, the choices we have are limited. I really feel strongly against bringing M$ into the OLPC scene, these computers are about education, sharing and hopefully the spirit of giving. Not virii, DRM, WGA, Vendor Lock-In and legal woes.
I for one would not welcome these monopolistic overlords.
This is a bizarre story, seeing as I've had a 4 gig SD card plugged into my OLPC for more than a year. It's been there the whole time, and there was even an inaccurate rumor that the slot was added just for microsoft. In fact it turned out to cost next to nothing to add the connector.
Microsoft has a long history of announcing new vaporware whenever someone does something interesting to try and keep as many people waiting until the Microsoft branded version comes out. Anyone remember Cairo? Microsoft was going to have us using a fulltext searchable metadata-rich filesystem back in the early 1990's so we didn't have to retrain to build on NeXT. Microsoft was going to be bringing us pen-based computers in the late 1980's so nobody should early-adopt with Dylan on Newton.
They don't have any intention of getting Windows to run on the OLPC. If they can buy enough time for the OLPC to run out of money, they don't have to do anything, and that is more like Microsoft. So long as Microsoft has presence in a market, the market remains stalled, and the state of the art languishes.
This is old news.
The important part is to note the verb's tense. MSFT said "we asked OLPC to add a SD card". The OLPC folks complied, and the slot's been there for a while.
Since I develop some software that's made its way onto the laptop, I managed to pick up a B2 machine a few months ago, complete with SD slot (in the most awkward place - under the monitor but above the keyboard. almost impossible to get to).
See http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml, under the "external connectors" section.
Well, I hope when they come to Cambridge, Microsoft will realize a few things:
1) The machine is in production. It's too late to make hardware changes. Wayyyyy too late.
2) It's already got an SD slot. And it will hold a 4gb, possibly 8gb, SD device.
3) OLPC is not really interested in running Windows..or any other proprietary product (even the Marvell Libertas has been a very contentious issue). Go port XP to the XO if you want, but don't expect to be welcomed with open arms.
4) How can you be so clueless as to the above facts? Perhaps you could blithely ignore #3, but #1 and #2 are pretty evident.
If they need secondary storage, doesn't the laptop already have both an SD slot and a USB slot? (See the OLPC specs!) And if the SD slot is non functional, can't XP boot off of a USB flash disk?
So what's the problem?
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education. It's like teaching children creationism instead of evolution. Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation, right from its inappropriate file system metaphors up to its "piracy is bad" and DRM crap, and lack of exposed internals (the OLPC with it's Python UI allows hackery of the interface by the smarter kids). C
Copyright law is a great evil in society, and it's important that children are taught to question it. Windows won't do that.
It seems MS is trying hard to get XP to work on the OLPC, but since the SD connection is not a standard one, they need to make the drivers to all the hardware themselves AND they so definitely can not touch any olpc GPL code they need to be very careful! Things are not going as smooth as MS would like it to be.
Some interesting stories:
concerns for this all
general info about the things MS is doing
Dependency hell? =>
Who wouldn't want a WinXP version with source code attached? :)
If i was Negroponte, i wouldn't say a flat 'NO'. I would ask for the source code
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
SIGN ME UP! This would KILL Vista forever!!!
If I could get a $100 laptop that ran a stripped down XP? I'd wallpaper my house with them! OLPR (One Laptop per Room and two in the LOO!) And then, when Vista 2012 comes out, and they want me to upgrade for some super new feature (like being able to print a date (human-type)... I WILL TELL THEM TO KISS MY SHINY METAL XO! Because anything that I need really DOES run on XP, and whatever they are trying to peddle will have the built-in hardware upgrade cost.
A Grid Networking cheap laptop that runs what I've been running at work for 6 years? That would spread through universities and many businesses like Ice-9. Whole universities and neighborhoods would become one single grid. Comcast would have one cable modem per 10 square miles. The market would freeze over to XOs and MS would have to shove Office 2012 down the throats of those using Office XP, as content as a MS user can be. WHY WHY WHY would we upgrade to Vista 2012? SIgn me up!!! And let's start freezing MS with their own OS!!!
And so it goes...
Of course they did. Since it comes with the operating system, you pay for it when you purchase the OS.
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that. You have to have a copy of MS-Windows, which means you're really just getting an upgraded component (web browser) of the OS.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I think the hackability of the OLPC will be precisely what makes it interesting to use. Ultimately, in all other ways, it should be used to replace books. There's a great deal of value in putting pen to paper in that for many, it also puts pen to mind in a more indelible fashion. But the hackability aspect will give greater ability for young minds to learn and create processes as well as learning to create and engineer a bit with objects. These principles go well beyond the realm of working with computers and into structuring thought and logical analysis of just about anything in life that comes their way.
Teaching people how to think is one of the biggest holes in current educational systems I have experienced. And learning to hack on a toy computer can offer up a lot of educational experience in that regard.
Microsoft want them to do a costly redesign, which will increase unit cost just to accomodate their software which is obviously more bloated than the software the OLPC already runs.
What's worse is they're trying to port an old version of their software to it, while telling everyone else that version is obsolete and shouldn't be used.
OLPC aims to help kids in the third world, by providing them a cheap rugged computer they can learn about and build up a community around.
Microsoft just want to get them locked in now, so that when they need support or are looking to buy more machines in the future they have no choice but to pay top dollar to microsoft, or risk losing access to their accumulated data.
The idea behind using open source is that those kids who are naturally technically minded will learn how to support and develop for the system, and create their own local skillbase they can use to support the less technically minded kids around them.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
...wow, that is so far off.
When/How did politics get involved with any of this? What, at all, does OLPC do that is immoral? How does "hypocracy" at all come into play with OLPC's mission statement? Where the hell do you get the idea that there are FOSS advocates who simply use the OLPC as a way to spite Microsoft?
What OLPC is about is bringing computers to parts of the world with low income. So what does that mean? The computers have to have as much of an inexpensive design as possible while still being functional. Therefore, it is necessary to choose an operating system that 1) is least demanding of powerful hardware, and 2) is cost-efficient. A GNU/Linux distro immediately solves number 2. Zero cost. As for number 1, an open-source operating system allows you to truly fine-tune it to only include what is really needed, thus allowing you to remove unnecessary things that would eat up memory and disk space. Windows won't let you do that.
OLPC could really care less about trying to shoot Microsoft out of the water. If people choose to pay for Windows and Office, more power to 'em.
But if they have a truly low budget and want a functional computer for the least amount of money, then OLPC would be the best way to bring computing to their children and schools.
No "FOSSies" "using" children. No "rabid" extremism. No hypocrisy in any of that.
/* No Comment */
It amazes me how arrogant MS is in this matter. These are laptops designed to be perfect for kids and to educate them and facilitate their access to communications. How does MS think Windows compares? These laptops all mesh seamlessly with one another, using zeroconf to auto-discover other OLPCs and share pictures and music, chat, collaborate on compositions, writings, programs, drawings, and educational games, and share network access. MS hasn't even managed to implement zeroconf in Vista, despite it being a well established standard in use on every other OS, by printers and hardware, and even implemented by specific applications running in Windows (Adobe CS3, Trillian, iTunes). There is even a free reference implementation for .Net, but they haven't bothered to incorporate it. Hey geniuses, why don't you catch up in your core market for a change, instead of trying to destroy competition and innovation in a different one, especially one as important as educating kids.
Did anyone else catch the fact that they did not even attempt to squeeze Vista in there?
Another black mark for Vista.
So long Microsoft, and thanks for all the BSODs.
Question everything
So, Bill, how do you square this with your charitable foundation's efforts to give the Third World a hand up? Because it seems to me like, between this and the Classmate, you'd just like to keep them hooked on Microsoft products, just like you've done with the developed world for the last while. And of course, they'll never get any ownership of the software you'd like them to use, you just want to keep them sucking the Microsoft tit ad infinitum.
A good friend of mine's just been out in Nigeria, seeing how the OLPC initiative's going down and reporting on it for the BBC. He said that the effect it has had on the children is amazing - they've taken to them like ducks to water, and they're hugely proud of them because for most of them it's the most precious thing they own. However, getting Internet access out into rural Nigeria is astronomically expensive (at the minute, over $10,000 per month for a 56 kilobit satellite connection) and he thinks this will be a major stumbling block.
He was also taken to a school which has been kitted out by Intel as a showcase for the Classmate. He said it was stunning - Intel had pumped a fortune into it and the facilities were better than most schools in the UK. Teachers had interactive whiteboards, there was WiMAX everywhere and a superfast connection to the outside world, etc. etc. He was bowled over. And so were the politicians that Intel showed it to, with the result that 1,000 schools are signed up to take delivery of Classmates.
So yet again, we have an organisation trying to do The Right Thing being trampled by big corporations with deep pockets, who see places like Nigeria as nothing but "emerging markets" to be brought under their yoke as quickly as possible, and who aren't prepared to let upstarts like OLPC take their market away before it's established.
I really hope they keep Windows off this thing.
This has nothing to do with XP on OLPC, or a measly half a million dollars. What it has to do is with country after country after country choosing non-Microsoft products. When these children and their parents see how well open source software works, they will consider alternative products for their businesses and governments, rather than Microsoft's offerings. This could add up to $billions of lost sales for our friends in Redmond.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
It's not about revenue, at least direct revenue.
Microsoft has absolutely no intention of ever actually putting it's software on the OLPC.
The strategy here is to delay or stop OLPC adoption cold. IF there are rumors that an MS version of the OLPC is 'just around the corner' compatible with those 'thousands of educational programs' then a lot of buyers will wait for the new version to come out.
This is what killed the Osborne lo these many years ago. The sales people kept talking about the next bigger better faster version which meant that no one wanted to buy the version that was on the market NOW.
I laughed out loud when I read the title to this article, and kept chuckling when I actually read the article. This is all about MS just trying to through a monkey wrench in the OLPC machinery, and NOTHING to do with a serious effort on their part to bring their fantastic product to developing world.
Not just answers, the correct questions.
A kid spending his day farming isn't going to say, "man, I could really go for a /. break right now."
Well...they'd better get their damn priorities STRAIGHT!
And furthermore, how's he supposed to survive without his quota of porn...or be unable to have a MySpace page for gosh sakes!
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
A $100 laptop will last a lot longer than $100 of food will. Plus, they'll help with the kids education, which might just help them escape the poverty cycle they're in. Teach a man to fish, and all that.
As for the electricity point, that's probably why solar and mechanical generators are being developed.
Tomorrow, I may eat another house plant
Wouldn't that count as child abuse?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
I partly agree, but it's kind of an over-simplification. There are of course intermediate levels of poverty where children have access to the very basic resources as well as education, but their families or schools can't afford your average computers. OLPC is aiming to that crowd, I think, which is likely to be quite large and will largely benefit from it.
There are already thousands of these being ordered worldwide, so the idea can't be that bad.
Yes you are. Giving food destroys the local economy. Giving medicine helps in the short term but what about the future? It takes real world skills to move from a 3rd world to a 2nd world economy.
Anyway, OLPC works best in areas with a little infrastructure and working poor. It's a tool that could open much of the world to the world economy vs. aid without end. The 3rd world is not going to grow up in the same way we did. They are happy to skip land lines and go strait to cell phones and they are happy to skip over DOS. All they need is something to trade and like India and China the economy will start go grow rapidly.
"A $100 laptop will last a lot longer than $100 of food will."
A child with $100 worth of food will last a lot longer than a child with a $100 laptop.
It's about giving people the means not to have to always rely on others for food.
It's about have the next generation with enough computer skills to attack businesses. Companies - for better or worse (my job has started outsourcing so I personally don't like it) move their businesses where work is cheap. When the business comes, the electricity comes, the running water comes, and the food comes.
A population dependent on people's "good will" will never be a well fed population.
You might be surprised to find that in shanty towns in Johannesburg people have TVs even though they don't electricity. How you ask? They use car batteries.
You underestimate how important consumer electronics and information access are to people. People don't just go without water because their homes are not connected to the water supply. They grab it from the nearest well. Same is true for electricity.
Famine relief is important, but different types of aid are not mutually exclusive. And one might even argue that the OLPC project is more beneficial in the long term. You know, the whole teach a man to fish cliche. People make this sort of argument about any kind of cause: why do we care about human rights in China when people are dying of AIDS in Africa. People help in ways they are in a position to help. Folks at the MIT Media Lab are best at making gadgets, god bless 'em for putting their skills to good use. I'd rather them work on OLPC than mail flour to Sudan in bulk. Other organizations have the expertise and the resources to provide that kind of relief.
WinCE runs on various architectures, but it is a toy OS. Still, CE would be capable of serving educational goals.
Many of the experimental NT kernels (PowerPC, MIPS, etc) sowed some of the seeds for WinCE.
XP Embedded does not provide the full MS experience. To get people addicted to MS KoolAid needs more than that.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
It is a very subtle and idealistic concept. The entire idea behind it is that the real problem of the third world isn't about medicine, drinking water, or food -- the OLPC is really targeted at kids that have their survival needs taken care of. It's based on the assumption that the real problem is a lack of education and access to information. That if you could give children these two, they would be able to obtain better medicine, drinking water and food.
You guys may find it hard to believe, but there are places that are three days away from ELECTRICITY.That's why it can be wound up.
A kid spending his day farming isn't going to say, "man, I could really go for aReally? I suppose he wouldn't be too interested in the Natalie Portman jokes or iPhone banter, but neither most poor people nor most slashdotters are so insular and parochial. The OLPC and the Internet facilitate people talking to people, and is thus an absolute good.
This attitude that all slashdotters are ignorant of poverty, and that all the poor people on Earth have no interest in technology or the availability of information is deeply snobbish, imho. I don't know if this was exactly your point, but I just wanna be on the record as against it ;).
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
What planet are you on???
Over here in Europe, I've worked in IT/Telecoms support for 20+ years now, have a whole heap of friends in the computer industry and I have seen or heard of someone owning a Mac a total of ***THREE*** times:
1. A close buddy of mine has been given a Mac by his IT department because it came into their hands somehow and they didn't know what to do with it. He doesn't have much idea what to do with it either.
2. An American tutor on a training course I was on some two years ago had a Macbook.
3. A posing student-type was sat with one in the corner of Starbucks in my home town the other week - and he was making damned sure everyone saw his little silver Apple logo.
Sorry, but by that track record I know of ***MORE*** people using Commodore Amigas and AmigaOS than I do owning a Mac!!!
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
... teaching kids how to use the dominant operating system on the planet may not be a bad thing.
Yes Linux is gaining ground and is now on par with Windows or better, but in this case the diversity could be a good thing.
No matter how the OS war goes, MS Windows will be a significant OS for a very long time.
Teaching kids the ins and outs of it could benefit them.
If the country buying the laptops wants to teach their youth Windows, let them. If they want to teach them Linux, the same should apply.
*BUT*
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
- The version of windows should be provided to OLPC for free.
- The additional cost needed to upgrade the hardware to support WinXP should be covered by MS.
- The upgraded hardware should be compatable with the Linux based OS that OLPC is using (incase the customer state wants to switch OSs)
- If MS decides that the contribution is not in their interests in the future, they must continue to support those countries that bought the XP version.
MS would jump on these conditions because it creates a future market for them, and only benefits OLPC because there are more options for their clients.
Just my 2 cents
MODS, remember that there is not a -1 Disagree for a reason.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
Instead of just parroting somebody, as if that is great satire from an intellectual mind, why don't you actually do some work there and type in a few real rebuttals?
You know, something like this:
Copyright law is a great evil in society
No, Disney invested a lot of money in Steamboat Willie and deserves to have it protected until the end of time. The idea that anyone should be able to steal somebody else's idea is communist and anarchist. Why, what would have happened if anyone could steal anyone else's great works, like Buster Keaton or Rudyard Kipling?
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education
You don't want to teach children how to think for themselves. That makes for terrible consumers. Better to wait until they have grown up and shown responsibility before lettnig them learn how to think independently and work out puzzles on their own.
Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation...from its... "priacy is bad"...
Of course piracy is bad! The MPAA and RIAA have put a lot of work into creating laws for us to follow (see the second point above) and it is their prerogative to make us pay for every time we listen to anything and to pay for singing Happy Birthday -- you didn't write it, why should you get to sing somebody else's hard work for free? What makes you think you should be able to pay once and listen to something on several different devices or at different times? Next thing you know, people will consider it their right to play music on a stereo that multipel people can listen to at once without individual headphone-enabled properly paid for copies.
Infuriate left and right
We get this question a lot. It's a good question.
Yes. If a child doesn't have access to medicine, clean drinking water, or food, those are all more important.
But, even more common than communities that don't have access to those, are communities that do, but still don't have access to education, or communications.
No, but he might say, "I wonder if I can sell some of my excess crops within a reasonable distance", or "Can I get some other kinds of seeds that can grow here" or "Is my brother who I haven't heard from since he fled the village after the last war out there somewhere?"
And the teacher in his school might say "I wish I had an encyclopedia in my language I could show these kids to aid in their lessons."
And his doctor might say "I'm so glad I have a way to consult with my colleagues to help diagnose this kid's disease so he has a good chance of recovery."
Yes. Yes we can. In addition to the above, how about the AIDS educator who can put together a better presentation to try to convince the local city council to help out?
Or the orphan who is able to learn some bookkeeping and is thus able to get a job in a local shop? Or the girl who's able to learn enough science to earn a scholarship to a nearby university?
All of these, of course, are examples from real projects where people have used computers donated by GWoB or other organizations.
Depends who you mean by "They". There are people who are, literally, starving. Long before they can make use of any donated computers, they need food, then help with infrastructure for growing food and getting a steady supply of clean drinking water. Though in most cases, that's more of a political problem. Extra resources won't help if the local warlord intercepts them because he wants to exterminate you.
But that is, overall, only a tiny portion of the entirety of what's needed out there. OLPC, GWoB, and many other groups are addressing some of the rest of it.
And, just as an extra note about the local tyrant, it is of note that the indigenous people of Chiapas were able to bring pressure to bear on their government because they were able to get the word out quickly thanks in large part to their access to computers, and the internet. Without the internet, there would probably be no Maya left in the area.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
There's a difference between saying "I think copyright is being used unreasonably" and "Copyright law is a great evil in society".
It's also fairly ridiculous to claim that copyright needs to just up and disappear. Aside from its long-held presence in the common law, it's also good logical sense and enshrined in legal codes around the globe.
See, one of the lovely things about copyright law is that the author of the work gets to decide what to do with it. If they feel like their work should be distributed to whomever, whenever, however, they can certainly decide that.
There are other people who do not want that. By obliterating copyright, you remove their rights.
Nobody is forced against their will to charge money for people to view or redistribute their work. The site you quote does not appear to even consider these issues in the most cursory manner.
There is an argument to be made that copyright is too long. On the other hand, there's the opposite argument that copyright should be eternal and instead the definition for derivative works should be loosened slightly.
As a writer myself, I favor copyright. If at any time I wish to allow my works to be distributed freely in their entirety, I can do that. If I wish it to happen on my death, I can write that into my will. But why should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings?
In fact, most current copyright laws contain exceptions to make reasonable derivative copies, and further, basic themes aren't subject to copyright anyway.
However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil. It may be unenforceable; it may be unreasonable, even. Neither of those equates with evil.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
I'm all for Microsoft products and you only have to look at my posting history to see where I stand on most matters Microsoft. However, I think that giving kids a non-MS alternative is the way to go. I am so pro-Microsoft because I have been using Microsoft products since DOS 3.3 and I understand how they function at the core. I learned some x86 Assembler. I cracked some copy protection and messed around with INT13 and various other system calls to make the computer do funny things. I remember when DOS 5.0 came out it came with a "huge" 300+ page manual that detailed all of the components of the OS and how the worked. The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work. The Microsoft of today obfuscates things and goes about doing things in a very non-standard way. I don't really support Microsoft because I think they do things the "right" way. I support them because I can make the Microsoft stuff do what I need it to do and that is good enough for me. But for my children, for the children of the world... I'm all for them learning Linux. Linux is to computers today what DOS was to computers in the late 1980s when I was getting into them.
Really? I suppose he wouldn't be too interested in the Natalie Portman jokes or iPhone banter, but neither most poor people nor most slashdotters are so insular and parochial. The OLPC and the Internet facilitate people talking to people, and is thus an absolute good.
More likely the kid is going to do a Google search on improved irrigation techniques. Or learn something about what crops might be better adapted to the soil. Maybe he will join a forum where he can talk to farmers in the first world about farming techniques. Maybe he can go ahead and find a dealer who will give him more for his crops than he is currently getting. I never ceased to be amazed what real, non-geek people find on the Internet. They find things that actually pertain to what they deal with in real life. I on the other hand have been "online" since 2400 baud, so oddly enough all I find are warez, pr0n and security utilities.
### But why should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings?
Because laws are there for the good of society, not just to please the individual.
### However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil.
The idea behind copyright is a good one, since it encourages creation of new content, the current implementation however is god awful one and completly unusable in the day and age of the Internet. The only reason why society hasn't collapsed yet is because the copyright laws are hard to enforce. If you would enforce them you would end up with huge parts of society, especially the younger one, having big trouble with the law.
This is precisely why the OLPC project is so laughably absurd. Take a $200 device that is fragile (it's ruggedized but still electronics), is an environmental hazard to dispose of, and has a lifespan measured in years...and use it to replace books, which are far more rugged, cheaper to produce, and have a lifespan measured in centuries. There are good reasons to spread information technology, but "should be used to replace books" is not one of them.
OLPC is a rich man's idea of what poor men need. It's like donating an expresso machine to a homeless shelter.
JTF: In your heart, you know we're right.
Exactly, and they need "computer skills" not just "Microsoft Skills" I can't tell you how many upper-level tech people I have ran into that have no clue how any OS other then Windows and DOS work, and even then they really only know which programs to install and how to fix common problems, anything beyond the GUI is unknown to them. Most of them hardly know a thing about Linux and OS-X and even when they do it is only from what they have heard from the media or someone else, very few of them are true hackers. Now there are some that I have met that have skill, they can think beyond the "Microsoft Skills" into "computer skills" they know how an OS works and can recommend an OS rather then just "Well XP is fast and Vista is slow but looks nicer" and they can also program enough to know how a computer works at the lower levels. The moment we start teaching "Microsoft Skills" == "Computer Skills" they are forever doomed to a life of slavery to MS and *insert other evil empire that comes after MS falls* and they know nothing else other then MS, and they start thinking that an operating system == Windows, and Word Processing == MS Word and then Internet == Internet Explorer, these are the pitfalls that most Americans have fallen into and why most Americans don't know a thing about computers only about Microsoft and even then, you put them on Office 2007 or Vista, they are immediately puzzled even though the core of the OS/Program is the same in order to make it look "new" MS changed the GUI so radically and they are alienated by it. If the third world knows how to program and use a computer and understand source code, they have hope, otherwise they will be with America forever following the industry leader mindless of any other choice.
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
Remember the old FSF party line: "Without copyright the GPL would be unenforceable. It would also be unnecessary".
Kids today. Sheesh. Think about it: if copyright doesn't exist, freely copyable binary-only software is competing with freely-copyable source-provided software. My money would be on source-provided software doing better - it has a killer extra feature! the source!. Programmers would be paid to code up new features (less boring wheel reinventing code, too!), computer users would still want and buy newer, faster computers. The people who would lose would be boxed software distributors. Like, er, Microsoft.
Schoolbooks do NOT have a lifespan measured in centuries. USSR or Yugoslavia, anyone?
While more fragile than a book, yes, what is the value of all the books in the world?
Text is the easiest thing for a device like this to store, access, and display. By having one a child could have every text ever digitized available to them. To me that sounds more valuable than $200.
Also, while rugged, physical books are not perfect in a developing, rural environment. How much space would $200 worth of books take to store? How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
I wouldn't even necessarily call the OLPC more fragile than books. It's just differently fragile/tough. More vulnerable to some things, less to others.
How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
Very good point. In a humid environment, I could see books rotting before the OLPC would fail.
Figure a textbook on the cheap is 5 bucks. This is 1/10 to 1/20th of what many class textbooks in the USA cost. It'd also be very close to physical cost, after all, we're talking about large books here, frequently color.
Then the break even point is 40 books(assuming the books, in electronic format at least, are free). It would have been 20 if they'd managed to meet their original cost goal. Stick some extras in there like an encyclopedia. There's many options.
For a 'normal' course load, I'd figure on 5 books a semester. Stuff like Math, Reading, Writing, History, Geography. While you could consider Reading/Writing one subject, you can also tack on a foreign language, speech, science, etc...
So it'd take 8 semesters or 4 years to pay itself off - if all it did was replace textbooks. Which it doesn't - it can also be used for test taking, quizzes, notes, additional reference materials, helping the parents apply for an online loan, etc... I'm sure somebody will produce educational games for it eventually - sure, it might have minimal specs for today, but it's still an order of magnitude more powerful than the machine I played Oregon trail on back when I was in school.
Perhaps the most important thing it could do is help the next generation become comfortable with technology, and resist superstition. We are talking about some very poor areas here.
I don't read AC A human right
The OLPC with its native mesh networking and internet connectivity will put libraries in the hands of many students for less than it would cost to buy, ship, and store the hardcopy books they would otherwise need for a good K-12 education. Looked at only as a method of distributing traditional written materials, the OLPC is a fantastically good idea.
Additionally, OLPC provides any high school student with access to the expanding world of OpenCourseWare (OCW). The complete curricular materials for about 1,800 MIT undergraduate courses are now available as OCW. Carnegie-Mellon, John Hopkins, and an increasing number of other post high school facilities are adding to the OCW libraries, as well.
The OLPC is not only ruggedized, it has been designed so that field maintenance can be done by persons with no special training or tools. Some will break, obviously. They can be cannabilized to keep others functioning.
The world is changing. Try to keep up.
There are already programs that try to supply third world countries with food, medicine, drinking water, infrastructure, etc. Nothing is stopping anybody from continuing to support those efforts. OLPC is taking a new, unexplored direction. It may work out it may not, we have yet to see. I for one see a lot of potential with the project and have high hopes in it working out. The existing strategy for helping poor countries has been unchanged for a long time and the overall problem doesn't seem to be getting better from a global standpoint, so a new approach to the problem should be welcome.
I don't see any logic in taking an extremest point of view of identifying the worst problems and suggesting that doing anything other than dealing with those problems head-on is a waste of time. It's not how mankind has advanced to where we are now. Progress can be made along multiple paths at the same time, and OLPC isn't slowing down any of the other existing support systems.
Why?
When you answer that question, you'll begin to see just how disruptive a technology the OLPC is, and why it scares the shit out of Microsoft.
Except you can't, not to the extent you can with the OLPC.
Specifically: There's a hotkey to get the source of any running program. If you screw it up, you can restore the original. Can you imagine a better platform to learn to program on?
"But", you cry, "They won't get to learn MS Visual Buzzword! They won't learn the wonders of Word and Excel!" This is true, and were they in, say, a US high school, only a few years away from joining the US Corporate Workforce, you might be right -- although there are still plenty of places they could go.
But consider: Word is for printing, and where will they get a printer? Excel is most often used for managing money, and what do they have to manage? And by the time they have that much, chances are, one of their friends will have written a spreadsheet -- a small, light spreadsheet that'll run like greased lightning on any OLPC. Or they'll be connected to the Internet, and to better, Web-based tools.
The people and businesses they will be dealing with will be local, and they will be whatever wins the give-computers-to-3rd-world-kids war. If that's OLPC, it'll be Linux, with the OLPC software (which kicks ass).
That's a given. In fact, MS already has us beat there -- they are giving away Classmate PCs wholesale. (Someone still has to pay for the OLPC.)
I assume the reason they are asking is because they don't want to do it themselves.
Ok, here's a question: Who buys the copy of Windows when the kids grow up and get their first real computer? The first hit's free...
More like, they'd demand more in the hope that OLPC will take any cash it can get...
And this hurts OLPC more than just about anything, short of not giving away the computers at all. If some of them run Windows, and some run Linux, will they talk to each other? Will a kid be able to, for instance, share a document with his friend as easily and transparently? Or just see his friend's computer by where it is? Will the Mesh network work?
Does OLPC really need even more fucking roadblocks as they try to solve these issues -- that wouldn't be an issue if Microsoft would do the right thing?
Specifically: The OLPC is not in any way going to look like any "real" computer, and if it does, it won't be able to do its job nearly as well as what's done now. Microsoft attempting to butt in at the last second is not motivated by generosity -- I really seriously doubt there's anything Windows would teach them that this Linux wouldn't that is of any real use to them. No, this is motivated by greed and fear -- the fear that these kids will grow up without Microsoft, or any proprietary software, and Windows will suddenly no longer be a majority; and greed, knowing that if these kids grow up on Windows, it's more money for them in the long run.
Because if Microsoft really just wanted to help, Bill Gates would pull some money out of his Foundation -- or out of his ass -- and just give it to the OLPC project. If they wanted to influence the direction of it, rather than trying to butt in at the last second, they'd have contributed money and development over the years leading up to this.
Mods, there is actually a -1 Disagree. It's called "Overrated".
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Furthermore, you can still limit redistribution of your work. When you distribute it, require that the recipients sign an appropriate contract. Nobody is forced against their will to charge money for people to view or redistribute their work. No, but they are forced to copyright their work (it's automatic). This means that unless the author explicitly says otherwise, nobody can redistribute their work at all (except when this would constitute fair use) until 70 years after their death. Since many publications are anonymous or pseudonymous, obtaining a redistribution license is often unduly difficult. In cases like this, copyright inhibits cultural development, and doesn't give anyone anything in return.
In addition, trivial and incidental use of a work is still infringement, and often isn't covered by fair use (because it's not transformative/criticism/parody/research/teaching). This turns audio and video projects into a copyright minefield. Your documentary catches a single frame of The Simpsons on some random TV in the background? Copyright violation. $15,000 per copy you made, or maybe (if we're feeling nice) we'll just enjoin you from distributing your documentary. Your song's melody sounds vaguely like some other song? Violation. Heck, if you tell to a co-worker a joke that some guy cracked on the subway, that's also a violation. Even if you attribute it. There is an argument to be made that copyright is too long. On the other hand, there's the opposite argument that copyright should be eternal and instead the definition for derivative works should be loosened slightly. Those arguments, at least the ones I've heard, are garbage. They revolve around the idea that "intellectual property" is the same as physical property, in that copying it is the same as stealing. In this case, it shouldn't expire: physical property rights sure don't. But then they assert that intellectual property is different from physical property, in that you can sell it to me and I still won't own it. (Or rather that when you say you're "selling" it, you mean something which is totally different from the sale of physical property.)
Or perhaps you had a different argument in mind. In which case, please elaborate. [W]hy should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings? Why should you be able to restrict the freedom of those who purchase your writings, and who have not signed any sort of contract with you? However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil. It may be unenforceable; it may be unreasonable, even. Neither of those equates with evil. There's a $15,000 maximum fine for humming a tune as you walk down the street. Do this repeatedly, and you could be thrown in jail. I can see how that would qualify as evil, even though it's never enforced.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
Dear Microsoft;
Over the years, we've disagreed on many things, not the least of which is whether you should morally be able to enter a field late and badly, and still take over.
Now I hear that you want to do the same with the OLPC project, and Microsoft, I have a suggestion for you.
Fuck off.
Seriously. I'm sick of you, I'm sick of your attitude, I'm sick of your superiority complex. If the universe suddenly switched directions and you actually provided the best solution in a timely manner, I STILL wouldn't choose it.
So really, Microsoft. Fuck off. Nobody wants you hanging around anymore.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
OLPC is a device for communication and creativity.
With its word processor, you can learn to write.
With its drawing package and its camera, you can learn to create art.
With its eBook reader you can learn from literature and textbooks.
With its email and chat programs, you can share your work, ask questions of remote peers or teachers.
OLPC can help people learn geography, maths, science, history, wind generator maintenance, sustainable agriculture, etc. Any "computer skills" picked up along the way are purely a side benefit.
This is one reason non-FOSS software has no place in it. It would turn a communications and creativity exercise into just another way of building a market.
Books cheaper? Apparently you've never had to buy books for college courses...
My life's goal is to get a score of +3!
good logical sense
Copyright law originated for the sole purpose of government management and censorship of that pesky newfangled printing press invention. If not for that quirk of history origin and inheriting the descendant of that system, it is FAR from obvious that copyright inherently makes any "good logical sense" at all.
If I'm sitting alone in my cave and I have a chunk of wood, it makes obvious good logical sense that I have every right and freedom to stick my finger into some black ash and finger-scribble whatever scribbles I want on my chunk of wood.
It is far from obvious good logical sense that you have some right to come into my cave and steal all of my stuff on the sole basis and sole rationale that the stuff I freely scribbled on my chunk of wood just happened to be the same as the stuff I saw you scribble on your chunk of wood.
It makes obvious good rational sense that I have the basic freedom to write whatever I want on my paper.
It if far from obvious good rational sense that you should have any particular right to sue me in court and take my money, on the sole basis and sole rationale that what I decided to write on my paper just so happens to be the same as something I saw you write on your paper.
one of the lovely things about copyright law is that the author of the work gets to decide what to do with it
That is true with or without copyright law.
What you want is the right to control what other people do with their property, on the sole basis that you object to what they chose to write on their property.
By obliterating copyright, you remove their rights.
Despite what you might think from what I wrote above, my particular position is not that copyright needs to be obliterated, my position is that we need to elimiante some recent abominable changes to copyright law such as the DMCA.
That said, even if we were to "obliterate copyright" your characterization of "removing their rights" is wrong.
According to the US Constitution (and apologies to the rest of the world but I am going to explicitly discuss my national legal basis of copyright here), the default initial state is that everyone has the liberty to write whatever they like, even if what they write happens to be the same as something they see or remember that someone else happened to write. The initial default state is that the general public has the liberty and all the rights to copy anything they like. From this point, the Constution authorizes Congress, if they feel like it, to TEMPORARILY seize the right to copy a particular work from the public and to LOAN those collected rights exclusively to the author, and Congress may only do so for the sole purpose of promoting progress for the public benefit. And when that loan expires, those copying rights revert back to the public where they originated and where they inherently belong.
The public is collectively VOLUNTARILY choosing to loan their copying rights exclusively to the author, via Congress, and the public voluntarily chooses to do so not because the author has any inherent right to it, and not for the authors benefit. The public chooses to do so because they consider it to be in THEIR OWN BENEFIT to do so, they choose to do so in the hope that a temporary loan of that exclusive copyright to the creator will encourage more creators to contribute more works to the public domain.
The US Supreme Court has quite explicitly ruled that authors have absolutely no inherent right to an exclusive copyright. The Supreme Court has explicitly ruled that copyright does not exist for the benefit of the author and that congress is PROHIBITED from creating any copyright for the purpose of benefiting the author, that the sole permissible purpose of creating copyright is for the public benefit by encouraging more authors to create and contribute more created works to the public domain.
So if we were to "obliterate" copyright, it would merely be the public collectively deciding tha
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
to have confused OLPC with "One License per child".
The world is changing. Try to keep up.
Oh, well, when you put it in terms of an ad hominem, then of course I must agree.
Dude, just trying to help out and all, but if you don't agree now you look kind of slow.
As you may or may not be aware, Nicholas Negroponte used to work in African schools. What he says struck him the most is exactly the fact that poor kids were so much interested in technology.
Giving them these laptops is giving them access to millions of libraries, teachers, friends. Yes, the idea of the project is not to give shelter to homeless, but the idea is to give enough education so they can build it themselves (in metaphorical sense).
May Peace Prevail On Earth
Windows XP - the full, bloated ugly version - runs fine in 1GB of memory. In fact, for most of its lifecycle, very few people every ran it at 2GB. All of the clinical workstations in my hospital still run it at 640MB (mostly just web-based apps), and many desktops in our organizations run it in 512MB. Admittedly, the latter machines are cripplingly slow, but it makes the point.
Microsoft has been porting XP to the OLPC for a while. The problem they are running into is that WinXP is nothing without its applications. In fact, MS isn't even worried about educational apps - its worried about Office. Check out the size of even a minimal install of Word - its not insignificant. However, without Office, XP just doesn't offer that much over a open source OS. *This* is their key stumbling block.
Frankly, this is a no win situation for MS. Unlike most PCs, in the OLPC "form follows function", ie the hardware is explicitly designed to support a certain set of priorities and functions. It can't be back-engineered so that Windows can run on it without either a) making it much more expensive, or b) turning it into just a stripped down Windows machine. If Negroponte holds firm then Windows will always be an inferior, second choice on the machine. Expect MS to hammer at the OLPC for being all sorts of terrible things and Negroponte for being an anti-capitalist obstructionist who belongs in Sweden eating French cheese with John Kerry.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
When I wrote
The world is changing. Try to keep up. that was not an ad hominem attack. I had already won the argument by demonstrating that the facts did not support the assertions OP built his logic upon.My words were merely a gratuitous insult. And that is an affront to civility, not a matter of logic.
Kids today. You can't even insult them without them getting it all wrong.
Hey! Get off my lawn!
Not very insightful. Firstly it isn't really just trying to replace books - if it was then the project would be "laughably absurd", but it's not. That $200 device does far more than a book ever could. Secondly, fast-forward five to fifteen years as economies of scale and ever-cheapening electronics allow the device to be sold at, say, $20. Third, even if the damn thing is destroyed, with books in electronic format, just buy a new one and transfer thousands of books back to the new one in mere seconds at virtually no cost --- destroying the device doesn't necessarily 'destroy the content', as you imply, and as is the case with books. Finally, I live in a third-world country, and it was access to computers at a very young age that sparked my interest in learning to program, which now allows me to earn a good income and create and export software products to the entire world, bringing forex into the country and creating jobs, so why don't you STFU and let poor people decide for themselves that they "need" - it's not your money, so how is OLPC harmful?