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Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Stony Stevenson passed us a link to an IT News story about Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs. The company now wants to be able to run Windows XP on the highly-publicized and inexpensive portable. "Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. The XO, however, can only hold 1 Gbyte. As a result, Microsoft wants the XO's designers to add a slot through which more memory can be added via a secure digital (SD) card, Utzschneider said. Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate — which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software — has failed to catch on."
Ahhh, good old arrogance. Is there ever an opportunity for Microsoft to be arrogant that they won't pass up?
Negroponte might be ok with Microsoft's involvement, but unless they're willing to give it all away for free, OLPC can't actually afford it.
also, don't you love it when people who go out of their way to ruin a party decide it's ok for them to attend when no one shows up to theirs?
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
First the Zune trying to play catch-up, now this? Next Microsoft will release the Zu-phone, in 2010.
Now, I'm no fan of microsoft, but they have a not-too-bad embedded OS, possibly the best OS they've ever written, that should/would run fine in less than 1GB - WinCE (or whatever marketing dingbat name they're calling it now - "Powered" I think, though I might be out-of-date). So, again, wtf?
Microsoft will want Windows to run on any hardware they aren't actively trying to kill - it spreads their monopoly. If the OLPC project succeeds, it shifts from being a competitor to kill to a platform to run on.
Looks like their back to square one. Nice to see they're not making much progress.
They are probable horrified because if all the kids grow up on linux they will prefer linux in the future. I know I use windows more because that is what I learned when I was younger and so it is less work to get adjusted to the next version.
Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Yeah, and I want to get laid. Good luck to us both, but I'm pretty sure I'll get laid before Vista runs on an OLPC. In fact, when Vista runs on an OLPC I'm going to get one and play Duke Nukem 4ever on it.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Then they will have to change it to One Virus Per Child.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when it comes to influencing the parts of my brain that control aggresive behavior, clips of movie violence have nothing on this.
It seems to me that Microsoft has missed the point a little bit. The whole reason for the OLPC is to get as many laptops out there as possible. A redesign would take a long time, cost money, and have no real benefit. If they REALLLY wanted Windows on the OLPC they could redesign it do it would work on less than 1 gb of memory, but that's Logical.
One more thing to break, probably (including a 2GB SD card) a $40-$50 increase in cost per machine, for what advantage?
Given the nature of the machine, I don't see why MS should have any trouble shrinking XP to under 1GB.
Anyway, what help has MS given to the project and/or what help are they offering to make this request even remotely worth the consideration of the XO project?
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
patented slashdot slapdown, and I will attempt to deliver my best shot:
So what M$ is saying that if you upgrade the hardware you can get a downgraded XP? That's nice.. "we're not petty or anything, but we'd rather see less laptops in the hands of children in developing countries than have them using Linux".
Well, between the Classmate going downhill and Linux being free, the only one looking to make a buck are the chair manufacturers.
Let's say there was the capacity to add another gig of flash, and XP could run on it. How much educational software would then fit in the machine? How much development tools would fit for the kids to develop apps (I'm thinking specifically of the capabilities Squeak/EToys gives the XO here)? How secure would the grid computing model be?
I think Microsoft are looking at XO as a low cost laptop instead of as a delivery platform for education and collaboration.
OLPC with Windows XP!
Now children can read their books by cool blue light! Once the capabilities of the OLPC are bumped up to run Windows comfortably, they will also be able to heat their food* on the machine itself!
* Microsoft has declined to provide food.
The the very worst part is that because Windows won't fit, Microsoft's solution is to suggest (demand) that they fix the PC. And fix it by adding cost, complication, and vulnerability to the elements. Those are the actions of a bully.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Redesign the machine to fit our OS.
Classic.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Then I guess I'm a "purist" on this one. An internal SD slot would be nice, but then so would a Core 2 Duo... you have to draw the line and when you're shooting for $100 you have to draw it very soon. I don't think the OLPC will succeed by conforming to Wintel; by definition, if Microsoft really understood this niche, it wouldn't exist for OLPC to fill!
Hopefully they won't succeed. The last thing the OLPC project wants is locking its children into a crippled OS owned by a convicted monopolist. I'm pretty sure Microsoft is gonna say "upgrade to Windows" if they get Windows XP working on the XO.
External connectors
(...)
- Flash Expansion: SD Card slot.
See also: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/SD .You mean they're not trying to get it to run Vista?
Seriously, Microsoft just can't resist trying to get a piece of every market out there. That's why the XBox exists. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it gets kind of annoying when MS wants to push a sovereign group to make adjustments to their own products just so that Microsoft can have a piece of the action.
Of course, this would also raise the price of the OLPC portable.
I hope they ignore MS just stick with FOSS and keep the price as affordable as possible.
/* No Comment */
Such a project was no priority until Negroponte and others made OLPC come to the fore.
Too bad that back around '96 we only heard fudware/vaporware from the likes of and from ms when others kept demanding smaller windows footprint in disk space, RAM, and other resources. When competition fell and died, ms never really followed through.
Now, with virtualization (WINE, Win4Lin, VMWare, Virtual Box, Bochs, et al), numerous terminal setups, kiosk modes, a besieging amount of Open Source software, populous countries with attractive budgets, and other factors make ms just go into me-too, and copy-cat mode, innovation being just a buzzword to check off on marketing brochures and bandy in conventions.
Now, if only Open Source developers would somehow garner the attention of human interface design and make thinks vastly more polished and less rickety/designed-for-the-nerdgineer, and if people like myself (non-developers) could make use of Eclipse, Glade, Trolltech's software, and things like that, we could spark a whole new renaissance of non-ms stuff that could level the playing field.
How dare ms try to push manufacturers to add more than Linux requires to get OLPC out there. This is just to dick up the manufacturing process to delay boxes otherwise slated for OLPC assembly and deployment, at least as I see it...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Luckily Mr. Negroponte is an intelligent man who is not interested in profits, but in doing the right thing, and can happily tell them to fuck the hell off.
That's what I'd do anyway.
Who in the right mind would try to educate young kids about computers while using Windows?
Yes, a lot of us new geeks started on Windows, but as soon as we got to "know Unix" we jumped that crappy ship and never looked back.
GNU/Linux and FOSS are the way of the future. It's like p2p networks and RIAA. You can't magically stop the spread of open knowledge.
Negroponte will give them a stable and innovative learning platform that will benefit both their computing skills and more importantly their general education and knowledge.
Just the other day I thought about making a bumper sticker or a shirt that says "Microsoft is the reason you suck at computers."
(I've just trademarked that.) (Or is it copyrighted? WTH, I'll do both.)
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
So they are telling us that they don't have the most competent developer team in the world and they can't overcome a little problem like that ? Noone need more than 640K, remember ?
--
No, I'm not making fun of Microsoft... they are the best, aren't they ?
Can't the slot just be mounted before the bootloader? It apparently takes HCSD cards too.
http://laptop.org/en/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml
1 Gbyte should be enough for anyone :-)
You want a low cost computer to give to the children of the world that runs XP? You're sitting on billions of capital. Your ex-CEO runs a worldwide charity. You have manufacturing experience with the XBox360. You have industry alliances with all the major chip manufacturers.
Why don't you BUILD one? I'm sure you could make it "better" and you'd have a whole new customer base. You could even lock out competitors.
Or better yet, why dontcha give away copies of Windows CE? That runs under a gig... doesn't it?
The article continues: "A Microsoft spokesperson has confirmed that a Vista-Capable OLPC release is in the works. The laptop will run Remote Desktop, connecting over the wireless network to a server running Windows Vista."
Microsoft's only argument seems to be that there's lots of educational software written for Windows that becomes available this way. But if the OLPC becomes very widespread, surely those programs will be adapted for the OLPC. If the OLPC doesn't have Windows, the software will be adapted to the Windows-less OLPC.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Where's the humor tag?
So, Microsoft wants the XO to run their operating system? Are they willing to release the source code to Windows XP *and* let kids rewrite it??
This isn't merely Microsoft wanting to change one little hardware spec. The ramifications are that the laptops will probably require more power to run that extra SD slot; the laptop will cost more for the redesign, re-molding, extra parts; the whole philosophy of the software will change and the kid's desire to explore and tinker stifled. I don't think Microsoft cares beyond a "developing countries == potential market" attitude...
p.s. If you want to buy an XO, that's also the link: http://www.laptopgiving.org/
Microsoft is not taking this seriously. If they were serious about getting some version of Windows running on this machine, they probably should start with Windows CE (or whatever they are currently calling it... Windows .NET or something?) Since it was made for PDAs (and now used on smart phones) I would guess 1GB of flash and 256MB of RAM would be spacious for it, and the CPU rather quick.
IMHO Microsoft shouldn't even attempt it. I have read Microsoft's goal in this is to try to introduce more people to Windows. But, I think it will backfire -- they will get XP shoehorned on but it won't run well or support many "normal" windows applications (due to not meeting the app's system requirements.). So rather than giving people a favorable introduction to Windows, the first impression will be like "why do people put up with this?" Of course, the Linux version on the OLPC also won't support many normal Linux apps, but it doesn't try to behave like a normal Linux distro, so this won't seem so odd.
Tell you what Microsoft, you show us the stripped-down version of XP you see running comfortably and stably, with apps, in 2GB of system flash ... and then we'll talk.
"Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs"
From: OLPC
To: Microsoft
re: Redesign
Dear Microsoft,
Our design works for us. It's set. We won't change it. Would would, however, be willing to offer XP as an alternate operating system. You'll just need to redesign it to fit our needs.
Sincerely,
The XO team
P.S.: Sorry to hear about the Classmate.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I agree... if MS is willing to subsidize the extra cost associated with the upgraded design and will give the "shrunken" Windows XP to the project for free as an optional choice for those who wish to use it instead of the custom OS, then there's no reason to refuse. However, if it would add 1 cent to the project, or adds any type of restriction at all, I think the response to the request should be an emphatic "No."
BartPE fits on a 256MB USB Flash drive. Surely something similar would be workable in 1GB.
Or Embrace and Extinguish?
Can we PLEASE get a new set of icons? One with a foot and a gun please.
There simply are no words to describe the incredulity that I feel after reading just the summary. The people in Redmond must be high. You have to wonder what the folks developing WinCE are thinking about this. I know that you can cut Windows down to a minimal set of functions and resource usage, but that is just messed up.
You would think they have enough to worry about just trying to get Vista installed on 300,000 machines and off of the worst products of 2007 lists. I guess, if you are going to be on that list, might as well dominate the list.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
An XP tailored to run on flash memory would make a great live boot option for all windows users. After all there is still no windows "live cd", despite the many non-windows full featured live cds available.
I wouldn't be surprised if XP on XO was highly customised to not boot on anything but the exact XO hardware.
Let's put a slot on a device so it can collect dirt. Also will windows run well on SD memory, which is notoriously slow?
Why can't Microsoft just make their own device if they want it so badly? Why does anything with an x86 have to run Windows? Makes me wonder if we wouldn't be better off pushing solutions that run ARM, PPC, MIPS, Sparc, Microblaze, etc.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
1. You're are not legally allowed to share it with your friends, not even for educational use!
2. Viruses/Spyware - this is a computer designed to give new users an introduction to computing, and a tool for education, can you imagine the grief virii would cause here, especially in a mass scale / network environment.
3. Cost.
4. Linux is not communism, Vendor lock-in is.
I'm a sysadmin at a school in South Africa, the funding is poor, the choices we have are limited. I really feel strongly against bringing M$ into the OLPC scene, these computers are about education, sharing and hopefully the spirit of giving. Not virii, DRM, WGA, Vendor Lock-In and legal woes.
I for one would not welcome these monopolistic overlords.
... They should include the source too. Free as in speech, not beer.
This is a bizarre story, seeing as I've had a 4 gig SD card plugged into my OLPC for more than a year. It's been there the whole time, and there was even an inaccurate rumor that the slot was added just for microsoft. In fact it turned out to cost next to nothing to add the connector.
This is a nice guesture by MS, but of course the OLPC guys are going to stay their destructive course. OLPC is, was, and always will be simply a project to force people to use a really crappy version of Teh Lunix. It never did, and never will, be about "teh kidz".
If OLPC really WERE about the kids... why would they do everything possible to prevent people from getting the Classmate? Why would they care about preventing people from using Windows or MS Office?
If OLPC really were about the kids, they would be happy that "teh kidz" were getting computers, no matter who provided them or what it was running.
With every press release, the OLPC guys, and FOSSies in general, reveal their disgusting hypocracy. Using kids in poor countries as nothing more than a political prop.... it appears there is no limit to how immorally far FOSSies will go with their rabid hatred of Microsoft.
The XO I have has an SD card slot so I dunno what M$ is smoking.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Microsoft has a long history of announcing new vaporware whenever someone does something interesting to try and keep as many people waiting until the Microsoft branded version comes out. Anyone remember Cairo? Microsoft was going to have us using a fulltext searchable metadata-rich filesystem back in the early 1990's so we didn't have to retrain to build on NeXT. Microsoft was going to be bringing us pen-based computers in the late 1980's so nobody should early-adopt with Dylan on Newton.
They don't have any intention of getting Windows to run on the OLPC. If they can buy enough time for the OLPC to run out of money, they don't have to do anything, and that is more like Microsoft. So long as Microsoft has presence in a market, the market remains stalled, and the state of the art languishes.
This is old news.
The important part is to note the verb's tense. MSFT said "we asked OLPC to add a SD card". The OLPC folks complied, and the slot's been there for a while.
Since I develop some software that's made its way onto the laptop, I managed to pick up a B2 machine a few months ago, complete with SD slot (in the most awkward place - under the monitor but above the keyboard. almost impossible to get to).
See http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml, under the "external connectors" section.
Windows 3.0 used to run on machines with 512K (that's half a meg, not half a gig).
If Microsoft wants Windows to run on the XO, why should the XO be the one that has to make the accommodation?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Well, I hope when they come to Cambridge, Microsoft will realize a few things:
1) The machine is in production. It's too late to make hardware changes. Wayyyyy too late.
2) It's already got an SD slot. And it will hold a 4gb, possibly 8gb, SD device.
3) OLPC is not really interested in running Windows..or any other proprietary product (even the Marvell Libertas has been a very contentious issue). Go port XP to the XO if you want, but don't expect to be welcomed with open arms.
4) How can you be so clueless as to the above facts? Perhaps you could blithely ignore #3, but #1 and #2 are pretty evident.
... the center of the universe ... king of the world ... the Supreme Ruler ... the one who knows best ... our digital overlord ...
-- Cheers!
I think MS is just creating vaporware. Now they cabn go round and tell everybody that if they wait just little longer they can buy an KLPC laptop running windows. It will probably never happpen but it buys time, and slows the uptake of OLPC.
2008 will the year of cheap laptops (XO and Asus EEE are below $300).
Everybody will be able to afford a computer at this price.
The problem is that Microsoft's OSes is very expensive and need a lot of power to run (both with CPU speed, RAM and harddisk).
When they started working on Vista, Microsoft did bet that in the future everybody would own a supercomputer.
Today's situation shows that they guessed wrong, and that's why they are trying desperately to refurbish their old OS.
I think they made another error, since Win98 is more suitable for such computers, but they stopped maintaining it (it will be too expensive to maintain).
Note that when the hardware is cheap, the software needs to be cheap, since people won't pay an OS that costs 10% of the hardware's price !
for an answer. Microsoft has been deriding this project for a long time. Their FUD didn't shut it down, so I would question their motives now and not let them be a part of it.
If they give XP away for free, I hope they get busted for dumping to try to prevent competition.
If they need secondary storage, doesn't the laptop already have both an SD slot and a USB slot? (See the OLPC specs!) And if the SD slot is non functional, can't XP boot off of a USB flash disk?
So what's the problem?
It seems MS is trying hard to get XP to work on the OLPC, but since the SD connection is not a standard one, they need to make the drivers to all the hardware themselves AND they so definitely can not touch any olpc GPL code they need to be very careful! Things are not going as smooth as MS would like it to be.
Some interesting stories:
concerns for this all
general info about the things MS is doing
Dependency hell? =>
So let me get this straight.... Microsoft spent about ten years making version after version after version of Windows, each absurdly more bloated the last and each requiring absurdly more hardware resources than the last, just to run decently. They always targeted each new version for the high-end PC hardware available at the time. This was no accident; customers have complained about it for the entire lifetime of the Windows product line.
Meanwhile, over roughly the same decade, Linux has grown enormously in power while only growing modestly in bloat and resource requirements.
Now someone designs a clever new inexpensive and intentionally very low-powered computer -- something Microsoft never had the vision to anticipate or prepare for. Linux runs fine on this new computer because unlike Windows, Linux has long been designed for flexibility and adaptibility to diverse hardware, including the very low-end. Microsoft suddenly decides they want a piece of this action, even though they've intentionally designed Windows in such a way as to preclude this possibility, and then they have the nerve to ask the hardware manufacturer to change the hardware to accomodate their bloat?
Unbelievable. I hope the OLPC folks tell Microsoft to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
Who wouldn't want a WinXP version with source code attached? :)
If i was Negroponte, i wouldn't say a flat 'NO'. I would ask for the source code
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
... Microsoft to close their software business.
Microsoft has done it before. Most keyboards have two keys to the left and right of the spacebar with their Windows logo on it being the most obvious to the end-user. Not to mention the "designed for:" stickers that have appeared in recent years.
Since they've managed to muscle their way into the common PC hardware, they somehow feel it's their birthright to do the same with the XO.
Maybe if they can't recover quickly enough from the Vista debacle, they'll regain a perspective of their place in the heirarchy of computing.
SIGN ME UP! This would KILL Vista forever!!!
If I could get a $100 laptop that ran a stripped down XP? I'd wallpaper my house with them! OLPR (One Laptop per Room and two in the LOO!) And then, when Vista 2012 comes out, and they want me to upgrade for some super new feature (like being able to print a date (human-type)... I WILL TELL THEM TO KISS MY SHINY METAL XO! Because anything that I need really DOES run on XP, and whatever they are trying to peddle will have the built-in hardware upgrade cost.
A Grid Networking cheap laptop that runs what I've been running at work for 6 years? That would spread through universities and many businesses like Ice-9. Whole universities and neighborhoods would become one single grid. Comcast would have one cable modem per 10 square miles. The market would freeze over to XOs and MS would have to shove Office 2012 down the throats of those using Office XP, as content as a MS user can be. WHY WHY WHY would we upgrade to Vista 2012? SIgn me up!!! And let's start freezing MS with their own OS!!!
And so it goes...
> Microsoft has declined to provide food.
:-)
Really? Because I imagine they'll have plenty of spam...
Of course they did. Since it comes with the operating system, you pay for it when you purchase the OS.
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that. You have to have a copy of MS-Windows, which means you're really just getting an upgraded component (web browser) of the OS.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I for one welcome the possibility of XP working on the memory that OLPC has. I mean look at all the people with older laptops that will now be able to run XP and double boot, no need to buy new laptop or up grade. Go for it MS. I've got XP on an CF-27 with 256MB and it is sooo slow. I'm looking to putting Sugar on it, to dual boot. Of course when I get my OLPC, in the next couple of weeks, I will not be putting XP on it. :)
Increasing the spec to be able to run XP would be stupid on many levels.
It was designed to be very low power, so even with a small internal battery, it can run a long time. It is light and rugged so if you drop it it won't break. It doesn't need lot of cooling airflow, so it won't collect dust and dirt inside. Change any of those parameters and you have not only a more expensive product, but a much worse one.
For what? So you can run legacy programs that were not designed for that hardware or tuned for the cultural context?
So what does this have to do with OLPC? The OLPC is one of the few machines that cannot, for all intents and purposes, run MS products. Therefore they cannot force anyone to install MS Windows on it under the assumption that they buying the OLPC to pirate MS Windows. MS will have difficulty including the OLPC in the site license fees, as the OLPC will not run the licensed software.
It is my opinion that MS views each OLPC as long term lost revenue. It is like an worker who upon losing his or her job to a lower paid competitor complains that the other worker is taking food out the mouths of the family. Using the standard logic that corporate uses to justify long prison sentences against pirates, I suspect they will put a value on the lost long term revenue, say $100, multiply by the number of OLPC sold, say 10 million, and claim that the OLPC is costing the a billion a year in revenue, all the problems of the tech industry is caused by the OLPC, the OLPC steals MS tech, and laws should be past prohibiting the sale of the OLPC.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
From TFA: Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory.
POTENTIALLY? 2GB? Are you kidding me? I run my entire Gentoo system from 1GB with multiple browser windows, email, a dozen ssh sessions, and compiling updates or the latest code I'm working on and NEVER touch the swap file. Seriously, only potentially run? I'm appalled, yet not surprised. Microsoft can't fix their OS so they expect everyone else to square the hole for their peg to fit in. Idiots.
Pax Vobiscum
General Mills wants the every major sports figure to start eating Wheaties for breakfast,
All this is is microsoft realizing that it won't control a market share of the third world. Heaven forbid they be left out of the game even though in the beginning they saw nwo promise in it. As far as I am concerned microsoft has no power or sway at least not enough to change the platform of the pc considering the time it took to design the current one. Mind you they ha to do this without microsoft support. So microsoft can "go suck on a lemon" for all I care.
Windows on a mac is Windows under Supervision. - Frank Soltis(Chief Scientist/Designer of AS400)
If Microsoft feels comfortable shrinking Windows XP down to 2 gigabytes then why didn't they in the first place!?
Instead of adding a memory slot, they should put a "Windows XP Capable" sticker on the computer.
Is it really hard to believe Microsoft actually wants kids to have laptops? Look at Bill Gates and his foundation, they donate billions to help kids and the entire planet. Of course, there is a corporate benefit to doing this, stocks go up. I bet if Apple wanted in on this, they would get praise. According to date I found, Windows has 90% of the OS market (I think less because Apple was gaining by alot). You'd think common sense would say, give away laptops with the OS with the most market. Microsoft didn't need to get into the One Laptop Per Child idea, like I said, they have the market for OS and Office software. If Microsoft wanted, they could reduce the footprint XP leaves anyways.
How about M$ adjusting Windows to operate on the laptop? There is nothing preventing them from doing so.
Pushing new hardware requirements on OLPC, after all that they had to go through to get the hardware they are using for the price they finally had to go with, will require probably a redesign and I doubt M$ is willing to do anything to help with that...
Clones are people two.
This is very old news. The OLPC has a SD slot and should be capable of running XP as it is now. From the OLPC website:
It could be cool. As Windows would only be running from the SD card, so you must have the SD card to use it. It wouldn't be wise to not have Sugar as then the flash memory is blank, and the computer will not work without the SD card.
signature is pants
A few months ago I got to sit down at a sidewalk cafe in NYC's East Village, with an OLPC. You wouldn't believe the attention it got. No, it wasn't from PC people talking about how it would, or wouldn't, solve the world's problems, but how darn cute it was (With those silly looking ears). Every girl who saw it said "Can I surf the internet and check my email on it? What, only $400? I can afford that.". We told everyone, buy one when they go on sale to the public, in limited release, and you will support a child in a developing country. They responded with it's so small (The PC, not child), hardly knowing what it was really designed for. Of course, talking later in private to the individual whose OLPC it was, we were skeptical whether we gave good advice on them buying one, at least for their own use. The OS interface was pretty funky, and really designed for small children. However, with XP, I would recommend it to anyone who needs and internet PC. So, if you look at it running XP for use in the US, maybe it is a blessing in disguise. Add to that, the OLPC GUI interface is designed for a child, and would probably be more intuitive and therefore more successful in third word countries for small children.
If Microsoft developed a new Windows "lite" that ran on limited hardware but included some of the core advantages of XP over 98 (like not having to reboot after changing network settings, or shutting down properly) their market would not only be the OLPC, it would be everyone with an old PC that wanted a supported OS.
Seriously, MS needs to drop the bloat and make an efficient OS for once.
Oh the humanity of it all. Won't any of the oppressive save-the-children laws prevent THIS kind of abuse?
Microsoft want them to do a costly redesign, which will increase unit cost just to accomodate their software which is obviously more bloated than the software the OLPC already runs.
What's worse is they're trying to port an old version of their software to it, while telling everyone else that version is obsolete and shouldn't be used.
OLPC aims to help kids in the third world, by providing them a cheap rugged computer they can learn about and build up a community around.
Microsoft just want to get them locked in now, so that when they need support or are looking to buy more machines in the future they have no choice but to pay top dollar to microsoft, or risk losing access to their accumulated data.
The idea behind using open source is that those kids who are naturally technically minded will learn how to support and develop for the system, and create their own local skillbase they can use to support the less technically minded kids around them.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
They don't offer any x86 CPUs that match up the power/performance profile that the XO currently
has with the AMD embedded device they've chosen for it. While it's sub-optimal for a "modern"
user of PC's it's not at all suboptimal for what they're gunning for (it's actually a decent
performer.)- the closest thing would be VIA's Eden stuff as it's in the same bang for buck
space.
AMD's got concerns, but they're not out of the picture by a long shot. If VIA joined in, they
might have some concern (As VIA has some higher performing parts, compared to the AMD parts used...)
but since they're not...
IF Microsoft can winnow out their crap, they might have a place. As it stands, unless they can
come to the table with something that works out for the OLPC project in the same way as the current
Red Hat derived OS offers, I'd be telling them to go pound sand if I were Mr. Negroponte.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The all-time Kings of FUD are stepping up to the plate and saying that they are considering offering an obsolete and unsupported operating system for entry level users running certain hardware? Let me know how that works out. I would watch just for the train wreck but I can't see how MS plans to even begin to show up unless they plan to "innovate" Linux lock, stock and filesystem. Even then, I don't think they have the chops left to do much more than put a penny on the tracks.
I ran Win2k and was quite happy with it... until it bloated itself off my paltry 10gig hard drive. Not so with Linux. It was much easier for me to switch to Ubuntu and learn all sorts of new stuff than to keep an old copy of Windows running securely and swiftly.
Alternatively, I did consider putting an nlited version of WinXP on my Asus EEE just so that I could get easy, streamlined GPS software running.
The right tool for the job and all, y'know?
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
It amazes me how arrogant MS is in this matter. These are laptops designed to be perfect for kids and to educate them and facilitate their access to communications. How does MS think Windows compares? These laptops all mesh seamlessly with one another, using zeroconf to auto-discover other OLPCs and share pictures and music, chat, collaborate on compositions, writings, programs, drawings, and educational games, and share network access. MS hasn't even managed to implement zeroconf in Vista, despite it being a well established standard in use on every other OS, by printers and hardware, and even implemented by specific applications running in Windows (Adobe CS3, Trillian, iTunes). There is even a free reference implementation for .Net, but they haven't bothered to incorporate it. Hey geniuses, why don't you catch up in your core market for a change, instead of trying to destroy competition and innovation in a different one, especially one as important as educating kids.
Did anyone else catch the fact that they did not even attempt to squeeze Vista in there?
Another black mark for Vista.
So long Microsoft, and thanks for all the BSODs.
Question everything
microsoft.... is pushing XP?
when they are trying so hard to push vista to the rest of us?
when they plan to eol XP as soon as possible to kill vistas main competition?
and for the record... properly stripped. xp will fit. and run. in 1 gig. 500 meg for the os filesystem. 250 for the memory needed. in 2 gig that would be more than enough. 1.25 gig for program use.
Microsoft: "Please make the OLPC more expensive so we can force our software on children"
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
I've been playing with my Asus Eee PC for the last week or so, spending most of my time trying to optimize WinXP on it. The problem is that after you install XP, about 90 XP HotFixes, DirectX, .NET Framework, and a 512MB page file.. you've already used up about 3GB. Stripping out non-essentials like System Restore helps, but once you throw on an app or two, you'll probably have XP screaming at you that you're running out of drive space on a 4GB drive. As a result, I had to offload the OS onto a 8GB SD card.
SD cards aren't cheap, and it will seriously offset the OLPC original price. If MS plans on getting XP w/ security HotFixes to fit onto 2GB with room to spare for adding apps, I figure they'll have to come out with a very stripped-down and feature-limited version of XP (sort of like what XPLite does).
Whoever said this has something rather highly important to say. Said post has a visible tendency to bypass everything said so far. Give it your points!
So, Bill, how do you square this with your charitable foundation's efforts to give the Third World a hand up? Because it seems to me like, between this and the Classmate, you'd just like to keep them hooked on Microsoft products, just like you've done with the developed world for the last while. And of course, they'll never get any ownership of the software you'd like them to use, you just want to keep them sucking the Microsoft tit ad infinitum.
A good friend of mine's just been out in Nigeria, seeing how the OLPC initiative's going down and reporting on it for the BBC. He said that the effect it has had on the children is amazing - they've taken to them like ducks to water, and they're hugely proud of them because for most of them it's the most precious thing they own. However, getting Internet access out into rural Nigeria is astronomically expensive (at the minute, over $10,000 per month for a 56 kilobit satellite connection) and he thinks this will be a major stumbling block.
He was also taken to a school which has been kitted out by Intel as a showcase for the Classmate. He said it was stunning - Intel had pumped a fortune into it and the facilities were better than most schools in the UK. Teachers had interactive whiteboards, there was WiMAX everywhere and a superfast connection to the outside world, etc. etc. He was bowled over. And so were the politicians that Intel showed it to, with the result that 1,000 schools are signed up to take delivery of Classmates.
So yet again, we have an organisation trying to do The Right Thing being trampled by big corporations with deep pockets, who see places like Nigeria as nothing but "emerging markets" to be brought under their yoke as quickly as possible, and who aren't prepared to let upstarts like OLPC take their market away before it's established.
I really hope they keep Windows off this thing.
From the ies4linux website: "Please, don't use any of these IEs to navigate!! Get Firefox."
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate -- which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software -- has failed to catch on
Wrong..
1) As I've said several times Classmate PC doesn't necessarily run Windows and MFST doens't necessarily like it.
2) Actually, Classmate has sold more units than OLPC, I believe - so if it has failed to catch on, then presumably the OLPC has failed as well.
Apple taught Microsoft to do this long long ago. Apple knew that if it got people using the Mac at an early age they'd use it later. Microsoft knows that if they get XP on OLPC then those children will use it. With Linux going onto that platform those children will learn that Linux is a great platform for anyone of any age.
What we need to do is to do everything in our power to ensure that Microsoft doesn't succeed with these tactics. We don't need a world dominated by a convicted predatory monopolist.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
This has nothing to do with XP on OLPC, or a measly half a million dollars. What it has to do is with country after country after country choosing non-Microsoft products. When these children and their parents see how well open source software works, they will consider alternative products for their businesses and governments, rather than Microsoft's offerings. This could add up to $billions of lost sales for our friends in Redmond.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
That's what I ran XP on for four or five years before I got my laptop (NOT OLPC - regular ole HP) and with less than 3GB of HD space for userspace and WinXP and apps. I probably could have cut most of that HD space. (case in point, the system is still running, and doesn't use 80% of the full 13 GB that I have installed, and most of that space is MP3 [60%+])
I don't see why it's impossible that people would run it on that, and I did some devel work amongst other things on it, so I say it would be entirely plausible. And the other things that I did with that comp involved 3D models in AutoCAD. I don't mean you're average little 3D ball or anything, but whole facilities layouts (I'm a dork) with all electrical, plumbing, HVAC, furniture, doors, windows, bricks on the side of the building (I said I'm a dork) and all done in 3D wireframing in Acad2K.
So I would say that it (XP + 400MHZ + 128MB + ~5GB*) is plenty fast enough and with enough room, and solely based off experience.
Now, the question still remains, would they?
*what's the storage spec on the OLPC?
2^3 * 31 * 647
Does this mean Microsoft will support WinXP for many more years? hmmm
The fact that there are existing GPL drivers for the hardware is a red-herring (and just more of Microsoft's GPL FUD).
If there are published specs for the hardware, they can write drivers from the specs.
If there are no published specs for the hardware, they can pay an outside consulting firm to reverse-engineer specs from the GPL code.
We're not talking about patents here, we're talking about copyrights. You want to avoid violating copyrights in GPL software, write your own fucking code.
Either way, they have to write new drivers anyway -- because the existing drivers are for Linux.
### The OS interface was pretty funky, and really designed for small children
I don't think so. Sure, it lacks a few features, like non-fullscreen window or the excessive menubars that you might see in 'real' applications, but its really not all that different, you still have a taskbar, a dock and all that stuff. They might look a little different, but the basic behavior is very much the same. Its a simplified interface, but I don't see anything that is specifically designed for small children, no cute Teddybears or other crap that you might find in other applications for children, just a simply, clean, black&white interface, not all that different then what you will find on other mobile devices as well.
It's not about revenue, at least direct revenue.
Microsoft has absolutely no intention of ever actually putting it's software on the OLPC.
The strategy here is to delay or stop OLPC adoption cold. IF there are rumors that an MS version of the OLPC is 'just around the corner' compatible with those 'thousands of educational programs' then a lot of buyers will wait for the new version to come out.
This is what killed the Osborne lo these many years ago. The sales people kept talking about the next bigger better faster version which meant that no one wanted to buy the version that was on the market NOW.
I laughed out loud when I read the title to this article, and kept chuckling when I actually read the article. This is all about MS just trying to through a monkey wrench in the OLPC machinery, and NOTHING to do with a serious effort on their part to bring their fantastic product to developing world.
Not just answers, the correct questions.
The biggest issue, IMHO, is that making something that can run Windows adds extra constraints and drives up hardware costs. For example, Windows needs x86 and lots of RAM. That automatically prevents making a lot od design decisions such as using ARM CPUs and smaller RAM footprints - which would have made a cheaper, lower power device (less hand cranks per page load).
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Because Microsoft is entitled to have that publicly-subsidized platform train a new generation of global Windows slaves.
--
make install -not war
The XO already has USB ports. So the XO can be expanded with a USB memory stick - or even a hard drive for use at a desktop with power. The USB ports are hardened against dirt/water. I suspect it would require more effort to harden a SD slot. Furthermore, if they do add a flash slot, I read a showdown between the durability of various flash formats, and compact flash won hands down. The ultimate test was giving the memory sticks to 6 year old boys and instructing them to destroy the sticks. The boys pounded them with rocks, etc, in their efforts. Only the compact flash survived that test. CF isn't the smallest format, but I'm not sure that is the most important feature for where the XO needs to go, and it is small enough.
I thought that MS only pushed for vista...
"Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. "
TinyXP* runs in 400MB of disk and 40MB of RAM. Seems like someone already voluntarily did all of the work on shrinking XP. Kudos to them.
Is there some difference between running on flash memory versus regular disk? I know that its reccomended to use something like jffs to spread the I/O out across the entire range of a flash disk, but that doesn't seem like a show stopper.
*http://www.secguru.com/link/tinyxp_run_xp_from_400mb_hdd_and_under_40mb_ram was the most succinct summary Google came back with. Torrents are everywhere.
Microsoft should look at nLite or XPlite. If They can shrink xp you would think Microsoft could do it too!
XPlite claims it can do a 350MB install.
Think of potential future Nigerian scams.
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
WinCE runs on various architectures, but it is a toy OS. Still, CE would be capable of serving educational goals.
Many of the experimental NT kernels (PowerPC, MIPS, etc) sowed some of the seeds for WinCE.
XP Embedded does not provide the full MS experience. To get people addicted to MS KoolAid needs more than that.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
1. Embrace
2. Extend
3. Extinguish
Phone: Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing. Collect call from marketing department.
Ballmer: What? You mean that we can't embrace them because we can't design an OS to run on their hardware!? Well then, think of the children! The hardware requirements are too low, they won't be able to do anything! Think of the children!
Ballmer waits a bit longer....
Ballmer: What!? What's lynax? A smaller operating system...then they won't be able to do anything! What? It can open Word Documents? Quick - get the lawyers on this - they had to have hacked us to get that.
Waits.
Ballmer: What? We can't run our operating system even close to theirs? How do they expect us to do better? We hold all of their IP! They can't do anything.
Marketing guy responds.
Ballmer: What are you talking about, we have no base to belong to anybody! How the hell are we supposed to extinguish them?
Seems kind of odd that Linux developers have now outdone Microsoft. Microsoft can really embrace them...because Microsoft is asking to be embraced by them. Microsoft can't extend on their idea, because OLPC has done their homework. And their feeble attempt to extinguish OLPC is laughable at best.
My friends, I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end for Microsoft. Good night and good riddance.
... teaching kids how to use the dominant operating system on the planet may not be a bad thing.
Yes Linux is gaining ground and is now on par with Windows or better, but in this case the diversity could be a good thing.
No matter how the OS war goes, MS Windows will be a significant OS for a very long time.
Teaching kids the ins and outs of it could benefit them.
If the country buying the laptops wants to teach their youth Windows, let them. If they want to teach them Linux, the same should apply.
*BUT*
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
- The version of windows should be provided to OLPC for free.
- The additional cost needed to upgrade the hardware to support WinXP should be covered by MS.
- The upgraded hardware should be compatable with the Linux based OS that OLPC is using (incase the customer state wants to switch OSs)
- If MS decides that the contribution is not in their interests in the future, they must continue to support those countries that bought the XP version.
MS would jump on these conditions because it creates a future market for them, and only benefits OLPC because there are more options for their clients.
Just my 2 cents
MODS, remember that there is not a -1 Disagree for a reason.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
Microsoft has also committed itself beyond the point of no return to Fister and to prematurely scrapping XP - despite Fister being "Windows ME Part 2", having to climb down on that decision would be a huge loss of face to Microsoft.
So what better than to find an excuse for continuing to support XP (and therefore do a U-Turn) than to push getting it onto the OLPC platform? Microsoft gets to "reinvigorate" XP on the OLPC and Fister fades into obscurity...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
My niece wants a pony. What's your point, Microsoft?
The one kid unlucky enough to get a Windows machine will just have enough to make up for the rest of the linux-running village.
We need another tag for stuff like this.
"CHUTZPAH"
[End Of Line]
Good move, Bill! And they can starve to death while you put a new extension on the house and buy Melinda a new pair of diamond earrings.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Instead of just parroting somebody, as if that is great satire from an intellectual mind, why don't you actually do some work there and type in a few real rebuttals?
You know, something like this:
Copyright law is a great evil in society
No, Disney invested a lot of money in Steamboat Willie and deserves to have it protected until the end of time. The idea that anyone should be able to steal somebody else's idea is communist and anarchist. Why, what would have happened if anyone could steal anyone else's great works, like Buster Keaton or Rudyard Kipling?
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education
You don't want to teach children how to think for themselves. That makes for terrible consumers. Better to wait until they have grown up and shown responsibility before lettnig them learn how to think independently and work out puzzles on their own.
Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation...from its... "priacy is bad"...
Of course piracy is bad! The MPAA and RIAA have put a lot of work into creating laws for us to follow (see the second point above) and it is their prerogative to make us pay for every time we listen to anything and to pay for singing Happy Birthday -- you didn't write it, why should you get to sing somebody else's hard work for free? What makes you think you should be able to pay once and listen to something on several different devices or at different times? Next thing you know, people will consider it their right to play music on a stereo that multipel people can listen to at once without individual headphone-enabled properly paid for copies.
Infuriate left and right
I'm all for Microsoft products and you only have to look at my posting history to see where I stand on most matters Microsoft. However, I think that giving kids a non-MS alternative is the way to go. I am so pro-Microsoft because I have been using Microsoft products since DOS 3.3 and I understand how they function at the core. I learned some x86 Assembler. I cracked some copy protection and messed around with INT13 and various other system calls to make the computer do funny things. I remember when DOS 5.0 came out it came with a "huge" 300+ page manual that detailed all of the components of the OS and how the worked. The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work. The Microsoft of today obfuscates things and goes about doing things in a very non-standard way. I don't really support Microsoft because I think they do things the "right" way. I support them because I can make the Microsoft stuff do what I need it to do and that is good enough for me. But for my children, for the children of the world... I'm all for them learning Linux. Linux is to computers today what DOS was to computers in the late 1980s when I was getting into them.
The thing that isn't mentioned in TFA - and it's no small item - is that the OLPC has a completely free/open bootloader. No commercial stuck-in-the-eighties BIOS here. IIRC, WinXP needs a PC BIOS to run on,
Anybody want a peanut?
I apologize for the word "funky", as not all features were working. However it was designed for small children, in a good way, to be more intuitive without any prior knowledge. No, there are no lions bears or tigers. That is a western version of "designed for children". but there are small keys and complexity is ignored in favor of simple and intuitive. It does not do much to teach people how to use a computer as many of features that are in all modern operating systems are not there, such as windows and files. It was not designed as a stepping stone to an IT job. It is designed to be a tool for learning, and not surfing the internet and sending email or playing multimedia. It has extreme durability, feature that allow the screen to be read in sunlight, and a very low power consumption. I think XP would be wrong for the third world application, and for the "rich" western user, a modern cellphone may be a better investment, though maybe not as "cool", much as the Prius became a status symbol, I see the OLPC having the same potential. "Look, I have an OLPC, my other one is in Africa". While that would be smug, it would better the cause as a whole, much as the Prius.
Dear Microsoft,
After reviewing your request for an extra GB of available flash to further develop your monopoly to extend to those folks not fortunate enough to already be trapped within your clutches, the OLPC committee have decided to decline your request and issue a response to you stating that the OLPC committee wished that you kindly fuck off and keep you slimy company away from us.
Kindly, OLPC committee
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP? Well I want my toaster to run Ubuntu linux, but that is not going to happen.
Until next time....
So then it seems you agree with the response I gave to the other poster.
In other words, yes, you have missed the big picture. For just a smidgen of a start, think of it as a way for those kids to have a very good selection of cheap school books and other sorts of books, instead of being a "laptop" like you might use one (pron and games), and maybe you'll start to "get it". What's the cost of publishing, printing, binding and shipping dead tree books in, compared to electronically transmitting and storing ebooks? ebooks cost pennies at cost, dead tree books cost dollars. Right there it's a helluva deal. There is no possible way to get books cheaper to kids, you know, that "education" thing?
This just isn't rocket surgery to "get" this, and it isn't the only sort of help these folks might receive. Should we fault the other aid agencies and NGOs for providing what they provide, because it isn't something else? "sorry food and seed guys, you aren't providing water wells, you fail it". "Sorry water well guys, you aren't providing medical care, you fail it" "Sorry medical care guys, you aren't providing dead tree books and shoes, you fail it"
Do you "get it" yet., or do I have to make it even simpler than that?
This constant complaining about a big ebook plus reader because it isn't this "other" thing is just too sucky and hypocritical...and just plain stupid.. for words coming from privileged first world citizens who already enjoy "all of the above". Here's a clue, read the titles to articles and don't click on the ones you "don't approve of" and go back to your important video gaming and MP3 collecting, you know, that stuff you do that goes to help them poor "darky" folks out.
...I'm tired of being reasonable. If Microsoft wants a cheap alternative to provide to developing countries tell 'em to better engineer their OS and hardware platform of choice (Classmate). Asking/demanding anything of a non-profit like OLPC is tasteless and tacky. Screw 'em.
Oh, for the days when sig's didn't have to be cute...hey, wait a sec.
I guess MS is used to having hardware developers and vendors respond to their needs. They've had a very advantageous position with OEM system builders for a long time, not to mention makers of addin cards and external peripherals. I think we only heard about this request because of how silly it is given the OLPC concept. I think in the past this kind of request was either
- unnecessary because hardware people were already developing around Windows, or
- unnecessary because the platforms were not in a space where MS could to operate e.g. supercomputing, or
- welcomed
I agree with whoever posted "hey MS make your own."When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
...in the bank. Just billions. If they really wanted to provide a low cost laptop to poor kids running XP, they could drop some petty cash lunch money and do the whole stack themselves, hardware and software. As it is, emperor gates himself righteously dissed this project a long time ago. He just ranked it. *Twice* in fact, at a developers conference and at davos world economic forum. I think the OLPC folks should tell him and microsoft to go get stuffed.
I tell you what, the planet earth would be a lot better off without exxon, haliburton or (*(&ing damn microsoft. They made their billions already, they are rich as snot, can't they just say enough and push the plate away and get up from the table? We have these reports of an "obesity epidemic" among some populations, but I tell you, we have a bigger problem with "corporate obesity". Some companies have just gotten too large to be of the public good any longer and should be broken up.
Hey Microsoft-this is directed at anyone from there or any shareholder-can you just give it up a little, do you have to always try and hog the entire pie? Have you no shame? Is there no end to your capitalist gluttony? Or will you only be satisfied once it is a complete microsoft planet? Or would you even be satisfied then?
It's weird but this whole deal with MS whining and cajoling to try and weasel into the OLPC deal reminded me of my dogs. I like all of them, but they all have different personalities and traits,but some not very nice. The very largest one, who gets by far the largest bowl of food, and they all get the same thing, will *every single time*, if not stopped, run around and force all the other smaller dogs off their bowls to try and get some of their food, even when her bowl is still quite full.
Now, this isn't even tolerable for animals (somewhat understandable as a survival trait, but enough's enough for peace and quiet in the yard "civilization"), so why we as thinking humans put up with that from so called responsible corporations is beyond me. Microsoft, can you please just stop being so greedy when it comes to the computer market place, and just leave this little project alone without thrusting your over fed snout into it?
Since infinite opportunities exist to be arrogant ...
the answer is, no
Agreed.
If Microsoft cant invest the time to make a streamlined version of Windows XP for the XO machine then they never really wanted in the market in the first place. I mean this *IS* a company that craps out billion dollar bills like nobody's business. This is a case of Microsoft should bend to OLPC's desires rather than the other way around.
Also I agree on those ground rules. At least Windows XP for the XO should cost nothing and have any WGA and DRM crap yanked out of it. Otherwise theres no point in putting it on there.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
Oh yeah, and MS pays for the newly designed/engineered Sand and Water resistant SD card slot.
On second thought, how about F-off, yeah that seems appropriate.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
I thought OLPC was not about a "laptop" but about an educational tool?
.NET)
It is not about Linux, it is about the software you can use with it and the way it is setup to work. If you put a blank copy of Windows on it, the kids will be fscked over with a green, useless piece of crap.
* will they include python? (if I know MS, if they do, it will be some stripped down version of Visual Basic
* will they include other stuff in OLPC?
or just the useless OS?
3rd world get screwed over once more. As usual, by their own corruption and lack of forthright of their own so called leaders, as well as by the rich nations.
The OLPC also has a custom, ultra-intuitive interface with a high-contrast black-and-white mode for direct sunlight. Would Microsoft add this type of feature to the OLPC version of XP? I doubt it.
Why?
When you answer that question, you'll begin to see just how disruptive a technology the OLPC is, and why it scares the shit out of Microsoft.
Except you can't, not to the extent you can with the OLPC.
Specifically: There's a hotkey to get the source of any running program. If you screw it up, you can restore the original. Can you imagine a better platform to learn to program on?
"But", you cry, "They won't get to learn MS Visual Buzzword! They won't learn the wonders of Word and Excel!" This is true, and were they in, say, a US high school, only a few years away from joining the US Corporate Workforce, you might be right -- although there are still plenty of places they could go.
But consider: Word is for printing, and where will they get a printer? Excel is most often used for managing money, and what do they have to manage? And by the time they have that much, chances are, one of their friends will have written a spreadsheet -- a small, light spreadsheet that'll run like greased lightning on any OLPC. Or they'll be connected to the Internet, and to better, Web-based tools.
The people and businesses they will be dealing with will be local, and they will be whatever wins the give-computers-to-3rd-world-kids war. If that's OLPC, it'll be Linux, with the OLPC software (which kicks ass).
That's a given. In fact, MS already has us beat there -- they are giving away Classmate PCs wholesale. (Someone still has to pay for the OLPC.)
I assume the reason they are asking is because they don't want to do it themselves.
Ok, here's a question: Who buys the copy of Windows when the kids grow up and get their first real computer? The first hit's free...
More like, they'd demand more in the hope that OLPC will take any cash it can get...
And this hurts OLPC more than just about anything, short of not giving away the computers at all. If some of them run Windows, and some run Linux, will they talk to each other? Will a kid be able to, for instance, share a document with his friend as easily and transparently? Or just see his friend's computer by where it is? Will the Mesh network work?
Does OLPC really need even more fucking roadblocks as they try to solve these issues -- that wouldn't be an issue if Microsoft would do the right thing?
Specifically: The OLPC is not in any way going to look like any "real" computer, and if it does, it won't be able to do its job nearly as well as what's done now. Microsoft attempting to butt in at the last second is not motivated by generosity -- I really seriously doubt there's anything Windows would teach them that this Linux wouldn't that is of any real use to them. No, this is motivated by greed and fear -- the fear that these kids will grow up without Microsoft, or any proprietary software, and Windows will suddenly no longer be a majority; and greed, knowing that if these kids grow up on Windows, it's more money for them in the long run.
Because if Microsoft really just wanted to help, Bill Gates would pull some money out of his Foundation -- or out of his ass -- and just give it to the OLPC project. If they wanted to influence the direction of it, rather than trying to butt in at the last second, they'd have contributed money and development over the years leading up to this.
Mods, there is actually a -1 Disagree. It's called "Overrated".
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Microsoft should get lost. Now.
There is absolutely no reason why they should be meddling in the OLPC Project.
They're just afraid that more people will find out how good Linux is and stop using the craphouse that is Windows
The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work.
Yes they do, it is called the Platform SDK and Microsoft SDK v6.0. It is more like a 30,000 page manual now.
Actually there just a story on the 'Net about Classmate demolishing OLPC.
Wallstreet Journal-
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119586754115002717.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
But I thought the pact *cough* partnership with Novell would bring Linux and Microsoft closer together?
So why isn't Microsoft simply porting applications to OLPC?
Questions, questions:
Why didn't Corel and Microsoft bring Linux to the desktop? Oh, that's right, Corel became Xandros, and then:
"Microsoft Gives Xandros Users Patent Protection"
Weee:
"WashingtonPost: Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
Where did that last one go, nowhere? When is the madness going to end?
I find it rather arrogant for Microsoft to turn up at the last minute and insist that Windows XP run on the OLPC XO laptop. The FOSS community have spent thousands of hours getting the XO to the point it is without a dime from Microsoft. If Microsoft wants an OLPC go make your own and use your huge non existent community of helpers to improve the non existent source code.
Dear Microsoft;
Over the years, we've disagreed on many things, not the least of which is whether you should morally be able to enter a field late and badly, and still take over.
Now I hear that you want to do the same with the OLPC project, and Microsoft, I have a suggestion for you.
Fuck off.
Seriously. I'm sick of you, I'm sick of your attitude, I'm sick of your superiority complex. If the universe suddenly switched directions and you actually provided the best solution in a timely manner, I STILL wouldn't choose it.
So really, Microsoft. Fuck off. Nobody wants you hanging around anymore.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
One additional requirement, it must be as open and free (as in speech) as the Linux software, you may have heard it, but Apple offered their OS for it for free, but got rejected due to the open and free demands.
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
It would never work. Microsoft's standard tactic is to break any and all agreements, whenever it best suits them. If you then complain, you're free to sue them, which they will drag out as long as possible, knowing that they have more money for lawyers and politicians than you'll ever have.
Only a fool would expect known criminals to keep their word.
to have confused OLPC with "One License per child".
Actually, I expect they would support the black and white mode. Its just another video driver. What they want is to get DRM onto the machine and for kids to learn the "Microsoft" way, so that when they get jobs they will think they need office etc. To do this they will produce a base OS that does drive the hardware well and available very cheaply in third world countries.
no
Last I checked the OLPC did include one SD/MMC slot and USB ports. All capable of extra storage. Am I wrong? Check the OLPC specifications. Whoever wrote the article must have missed this.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119586754115002717.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Fine irony. Woud you rather those kids learn school stuff and a bit of python on the side, or a 30 000 page manual for a SDK that will be obsolete in two years?
Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
With a machine like this, a qualified teacher can write his/her own textbooks.
With a machine like this and a qualified teacher with a certain form of ambition, the kids can write their own textbooks.
Learning? How much did I learn from those expensive (tax-payed) textbooks I had in elementary? How often did I crack them? Why did I prefer the family Encyclopedia set?
How much more would I have learned had I had a machine like this to take notes on?
"So, like, let's upgrade the hardware of the cheapest laptop ever in order to make it altogether more expensive and profitable for us, the kids can wait.
I mean,like, what reasonably good OS can fit on only 1GB ?
And, yes, this poor kids out there should share our values on, like, you know, intellectual property, copyright, and of course, open source. Because open source is, like, you know, evil, right ?"
Er.. eh... No ?
Let's all slap Utzschneider thrice and hand it to his mama.
The very fact that MS want to get their oar in, says it all. They are "trying" to get XP working? Well perhaps if it wasn't so frigging bloated, it would work off the bat, much like...now what's that other O/S that can still be squeezed on to a single floppy image and still be usable?
My biggest fear if they lock these countries into Windows, for free, MS are not monsters after all, but then the virus' come and other not so wonderful companies come along and say well for a "reduced" rate we will "give" you some security software for all the kiddies laptops. Oh don't worry it won't be that expensive, maybe the odd diamond mine or first born of every family to work in that new sweat-shop....sorry booming manufacturing installtion on the east side...
When it comes down to it the 3rd world is the most scary techno market going. Look at how the tech market in places like India has grown over the last 25 years, the talent that they bring to us in the West. The third world people have a real drive and determination to make it out of the poverty traps. If that massive potential market, far bigger than the fat 1st world, grow up on an alternative to Windows, what will happen when they finally break out and come to the 1st world countries? They will be spreading the gospel of a different tech, it will most likley not be one that involves locked down software that cannot be adapted. They will come with ideas for open source that we never dreamed of. When it comes down to it, having to make do is an incredible motiviator to get the best out of what little you have.
Windows guys please stop pissing on everyone and the Linux guys stop pissing in the wind, hoping to hit Windows guys!
Agarax, I respect your stance, but aren't people really using apps, not the OS? (And I don't mean web apps now, that's a different kettle of fish.) And if Office is arguably the most important app suite to learn -- I mean for the non-dev workforce -- doesn't OpenOffice on Linux give you quite sufficient skills for MS Office (which they'll surely bump into someday)?
:-)
In other words, why do these kids need to learn *Windows* specifcally, in itself? Asking honestly
Another but related matter: XP would give them a chance to learn the ins and outs, until next Windows comes out. The OLPC OS gives them a chance to learn the ins and outs, then hack it (UI Python script or OS C code) to their hearts content, thereby giving them general purpose programmer skills instead of a superficial snapshot of a moving target.
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Sugar fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of an OLPC (Green, with ear-like WiFi antennas) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my OLPC running XP, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Sugar OS, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, Opera will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even JotPad is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various OLPCs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen an OLPC that has run faster on Sugar than on XP, despite the Sugar OS being designed for the hardware. My Vista with Aero enabled runs faster than this 500 mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that Sugar is a superior OS. Linux addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Sugar over other faster, cheaper, more stable operating systems.
The seekers do no need truth, the seekers do find truth and the finding do be painful
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that.
Perhaps I am missing something - perhaps the distinction is between "technically able" and "legally permitted" - but this is something I can easily do. Everytime I've installed MS Office using CrossOver, the Office installation has prompted me to install IE, since it is a necessary component of Office. So it is certainly technically possible.
As to the legality, IANAL of course, but my understanding is that the MS Office license does not and cannot require a Windows license (that would illegally tied selling, no?), and that since Office requires IE, IE itself cannot require a Windows license.
You could argue that I've needed to give $$$ to MS to get IE, and you'd be right: I needed to spend those $$$ to get the entry point that would give me IE. But I think that's a quibble rather than a real counter-argument. MS is carefully controlling the technical means by which one obtains this particular piece of free software. They could just as easily make it easier for you to get it. That they don't is their choice. It's their software, they're free to distribute it as they see fit (within the law of course :->).
Of course, all of this is mere speculation and conjecture based on my interpretation of my experience. I'd love to read a reply from someone who might actually have a clue (not to imply you don't, just using a turn of phrase, I think you know what I mean).
Are any of our /. lawyers about? NewYorkCountryLawyer? Bueller? Bueller?
I'm here EdgeKeep Inc.
Windows XP - the full, bloated ugly version - runs fine in 1GB of memory. In fact, for most of its lifecycle, very few people every ran it at 2GB. All of the clinical workstations in my hospital still run it at 640MB (mostly just web-based apps), and many desktops in our organizations run it in 512MB. Admittedly, the latter machines are cripplingly slow, but it makes the point.
Microsoft has been porting XP to the OLPC for a while. The problem they are running into is that WinXP is nothing without its applications. In fact, MS isn't even worried about educational apps - its worried about Office. Check out the size of even a minimal install of Word - its not insignificant. However, without Office, XP just doesn't offer that much over a open source OS. *This* is their key stumbling block.
Frankly, this is a no win situation for MS. Unlike most PCs, in the OLPC "form follows function", ie the hardware is explicitly designed to support a certain set of priorities and functions. It can't be back-engineered so that Windows can run on it without either a) making it much more expensive, or b) turning it into just a stripped down Windows machine. If Negroponte holds firm then Windows will always be an inferior, second choice on the machine. Expect MS to hammer at the OLPC for being all sorts of terrible things and Negroponte for being an anti-capitalist obstructionist who belongs in Sweden eating French cheese with John Kerry.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Office is just the typewriter of the 21st century. The closest thing it has to programming is a spreadsheet.
/bin/sh.
There are programing tools for MS. But nothing so simple as
You do not need to read 30,000 pages to write a shell script and learn what makes a computer not just a glorious word processor.
We can leave the fact that MS requires many times the horsepower to run as compared to Linux.
Add half a dozen flash memory slots and the kids can install Genuine Windows Vista Grass Hut Premium Edition(TM)
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/index.php I ordered my OLPC under the give one, get one program.
All the anti-Microsoft people should support this program and get even more OLPC's out into the public.
If I win the lottery tonight, I will purchase many for our local schools.
it should have the most straightforward, easiest-to-use OS on the planet. Windows ain't it.
That may be true but you have to pay for it. Last I checked MSDN subscriptions aren't cheap. You aren't going to find many parents of your average intelligent twelve year old who are going to cough up a couple of grand a year so that their kid can have access to documentation.
Yes... because the OLPC is completely unharmed by water and dirt. It is also both a floor wax AND a desert topping. It will walk your dog, it will cook your meals, and most importantly, it will protect you from TEH MIKKKR0$$$L0TH BOOGIE MANZ!!!11!
OLPC is yet another in a long and glorious line of FOSSie flops and failures. Just like Teh Lunix, it's nothing more than a jealousy and rage fueled attempt to attack Microsoft, which gets carried out by incompetents who can't hack it (literally!) in the real world.
What has FOSS actually accomplished? Teh Lunix on teh desktop is a huge flop, it can't even do half the things Windows 95 was able to do. Firefux is a buggy and unsecure mess, hardly surprising since it was based on the buggy unsecure mess of Nutscrape. ODF bombed- when it came time to actually impliment their ideas, they folded like a bad hand. And OLPC is getting OMGWTFPWNED by both reality and the technologically superior Intel Classmate running Windws, which will actually teach skills to kids which give them a chance in the real job market (like Windows and MS Office), rather than trying to simply boost Lunix's statistics at the expense of their unfortunate user base.
The way FOSSies are seeking to use and abuse poor people is nothing short of disgusting. The OLPC has absolutely nothing to do with giving computers to poor kids: it's all about being a FOSSie vanity project.
We can only hope there's a special place in hell for the OLPC people.
Because XP is Vista without most of the crap, and it's moving towards the end of its supported life.
:-)
All they have left to do is screw it up enough to get people to transition to Vista, but that's what SP3 is for. Me? I bet XP SP3 will install UAC, just to drive us all nuts
Judging by your username, you come from Poland, the Czech Republic or Slovakia. Those countries, while having strongly growing economies, are not yet where most of western Europe is. Here, in Switzerland, Macs are insanely popular. I know two people who DON'T have Macs. My entire company recently switched over to Macs. I have three Macs at home. One of the Macs also runs WinXP and MS Office (both legal unpirated editions, as opposed to the massive pirating of software in eastern Europe). Macs here in Switzerland have the highest uptake rate worldwide, higher even than the USA.
In time, when eastern Europe gets richer, and it will, you will see the same thing happening there. I'm not a Mac user because somehow Macs and OSX are trendy. I really hate the new OSX 10.5 user interface. I even think Vista looks better. I use OSX because it is rock solid compared to Windows. I have to support the last few Windows users at work and it is almost always a royal pain. OSX is simply less costly in terms of user support, by, at least, a whole order of magnitude.
The reason that Macs are popular has to do with price and the perceived price. The rate of Mac usage in France, for example, is very high, despite the French economy being worse off than the English and German ones. Macs are less popular in England and Germany because they are perceived as costing more, especially in Germany, which is known for its cost saving mentality. In Holland, Denmark and Sweden, Macs are also wildly popular, and even in Italy to a certain extent.
The irony of using Macs is that the OS supplies fantastic Windows drivers. As with OSX the hardware set is a known factor and all the hardware works flawlessly in Windows. Much better than Lenovo or no name brand PCs (of which we still have a few around to shove under conservative clients noses who think that Macs are still like Mac OS7). Macs are actually better PCs than PCs themselves.
Windows has had a high contrast black/white mode since at least Win 95.
Q.
MS only sees a 'laptop' and it thus needs 'an OS' (sorry, MICROSOFT's OS). They forget that OLPC is a whole concept where the hardware and software is only a carrier for the educational framework that Negroponte and his team have dreamt up.
It's not unusual that Microsoft doesn't see that (or wilfully ignores it, let's be precise here). Innovation isn't exactly their stong point, is it?
Insert
Indeed, I think Picard put it best... "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!"
We WANT Microsoft to SAY they will port XP to the OLPC.
People who have never heard of the OLPC project will now become curious because Microsoft mentioned it.
This will spur further adoption of the OLPC.
Of course, like all their other promises, Microsoft will NOT deliver and people will get used to Linux and open software on the OLPC.
Way to score a point for us, Microsoft!
That is a brilliant typo, could be either "piracy" or "privacy". Though, confusingly, it isn't present in the parent post.