This Year's Top Game Design Innovations

Next Generation has one of those end of the year 'top 10' lists we all love so much, with plenty of room for discussion on this one. They claim to have picked out the top 10 game design innovations of 2007. It's hard to argue with elements like Portal's portals or Mass Effect's conversation wheel, but was Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii really as good as a mouse-and-keyboard PC FPS? "When people ask 'How do we make a good shooter on a console' what they really mean is 'how do we make a shooter that feels as quick and responsive as a PC shooter on the console?' Apparently the answer is the Wii mote. I was blown away by this fact. Nintendo had always been the 'family friendly' console to me so I didn't consider the FPS ramifications of the Wiimote but clearly it's the best tool for the job. With some tweaking and some refinement down the line I could see the Wii (or a console with Wii like controls) becoming the platform of choice for hardcore FPSers, even over the PC. If this does become the case it will owe it all to Metroid Prime 3."

Comments

13:37

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is 1337!

Re:13:37

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Ah-ha! Now I understand what people mean about an "American sense of humour". :-)

Wii FPS controls

[moderatorrater]

The only reason this is controversial is because the wiimote doesn't have good enough aim. It's often off by an inch or more on smaller tv's. This is hard on hard core FPS fans, but for me this isn't a problem. First, between wrestling with the auto-aim feature on a lot of shooters and using two analog sticks to control my movement and aim, I find correcting for the wiimote's bad aim to be easy by comparison. I'd rather have faster, more responsive aim that's off by a consistent amount than have to use a regular controller.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Gravatron]

Controlling with the analog sticks in indeed something of an annoyance, but its not a game ender if done right. Autoaim can be just as bad at time. A happy medium between the two often works well though.

Of course, you could also pull a Sony and just let the developers code for keyboard/mouse support, like they allowed with the ps2 and ps3. It seems alot of developers aren't making use of that functionality for some reason, beyond UT3's use of it. Why? No idea.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[G Fab]

I completely disagree, my friend.

"was Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii really as good as a mouse-and-keyboard PC FPS?" This is an absurd question. The wiimote is twitchy as all get out. I know a bunch of people love Metroid 3, so I have to acknowledge that, even if I hate it, it's a successful and good product, but man that game is just not that good. I prefer the dual analog sticks, slow as they are, for moving about a 3d world, if I can't have a mouse. Also, the graphics on Metroid just seem pretty weak to me (and yeah, I know a lot of people think they are excellent).

I guess I may just have weird tastes in this, and more power to Nintendo for the new ideas, but I own Metroid 3 and most other major wii games (well, my kids do), and I really don't like them that much. They are basically obvious motion adaptations of well worn and nostalgic Nintendo greats. That's a solid biz model, but top design innovation? Well, ok, maybe it is, but only because there aren't many real innovations out there. This is like including the powerglove with all NESs. yeah, it's different.

And is a wiimote better than a sixaxis (granting that Sony gets no innovation points for knocking off the wiimote)? I guess. If you point it at the TV, it aims and twitches, and that's a feature only teh wii has, but is this a good feature or just a unique feature? Games like HVB are showing that the sixaxis can be pretty damn nice in the hands of a competent programmer (so sad that this is one of the best PS3 games, huh?).

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

Pointing the Wii Remote isn't supposed to be light-gun style aiming, and I think that you'll find if you really pay attention that it isn't. That's why every Wii shooter has a reticule...

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. The number one thing to remember is "the Wii-mote is not a lightgun." It's like using a mouse - motion is relative. I don't have an exact spot on my desk that corresponds to the center of my screen, but when my cursor is too far to the left, I move the mouse to the right.

It's up to the developers to keep this in mind when creating the control scheme for the game. Some are really trying to treat it like a lightgun, and their games suck terribly because of it.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[edwdig]

I haven't played any pure FPS games on the Wii, only Metroid, but you're not really pointing at what you want to shoot. It works essentially like a mouse - just tilt the controller a little and the view & crosshair moves in the appropriate direction. You really shouldn't even know what the Wiimote is pointing at.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[trdrstv]

The wiimote is twitchy as all get out.

Do you get a lot of Sun in the room you play the Wii in? In general if I have those issues drawing the curtains fixes them ( sunlight screws up communication with the sensor bar).

Re:Wii FPS controls

[ArmyOfFun]

The wiimote is twitchy as all get out. I've noticed the distance from the wiimote to the sensor bar makes a HUGE difference. If I try playing from my couch, the cursor or reticle is constantly jittering. If I move a mere foot closer (where our love seat sits) the jitter disappears completely.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[vux984]

Controlling with the analog sticks in indeed something of an annoyance, but its not a game ender if done right.

It is for me. Its never been done right. I'd rather play them on the PC.

Autoaim can be just as bad at time. A happy medium between the two often works well though.

I hate auto aim... i want to shoot the barrel just behind the target its locked on. I want to shoot the caster behind the charging warrior... whatever... autoaim drives me nuts.

I -did- enjoy Eternal Darkness on the 'cube tho, and thought the targeting was even fairly innovative and well done... but ED wasn't an FPS.

Of course, you could also pull a Sony and just let the developers code for keyboard/mouse support, like they allowed with the ps2 and ps3. It seems alot of developers aren't making use of that functionality for some reason, beyond UT3's use of it. Why? No idea.

Because as good as the keyboard mouse is for FPS games, most of us don't really want to use one on the couch. Nor do we want to set up a table at the right height. (Using a typical coffee table is back breaking at worst and uncomfortable at best, and that's assuming you even have one... I don't.)

It would also suck for multiplayer (Splitscreen) two keyboards and mice would use a lot of space. Four? Forget about it.

And finally, at least when it wasn't an option, using the controller was bearable, but to use a controller when keyboard/mouse is available... that would be ... un-bearable. But actually using a kb/mouse poses its own problems. (see above)

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you need a bigger TV. Its pretty accurate for me and is never off by an inch. You're either using a 4 inch display or you're wii is broken.

Have a look at the tracking capabilities of the wiimote on even a 32 inch surface...it seems pretty accurate:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/projects/wii/

Re:Wii FPS controls

[CastrTroy]

Try going into the Wii configuration. There's setting there that let's you adjust how sensitive the the sensor bar is.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[ArmyOfFun]

I've played around with that setting. If I'm on the couch, I can set the sensitivity to jitter or fail-to-detect-sensor at all (anything on the left half of the sensitivity bar). Maybe some lights in the room are throwing it off.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have anything reflective (such as a glass top coffee table) between your couch and the TV? That's probably the source of jitter. Reflections off other objects can confuse the wii remote as it starts to see multiple spots.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[ArmyOfFun]

Thanks for the advice. The coffee table is a possibility since it has a shiny finish (it's not glass or mirrored though).

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found that there's a maximum range for best aiming the wiimote. If you're father than about ten feet away from the television, the wiimote cursor will twitch even when you're holding it steady. If you're closer than that, the cursor is suddenly stable, and so is the aim on Metroid. And I have to say, MP3 is a great game. The controls actually work well (unlike CoD3 and Red Steel) and I think it's very satisfying to be able to play a FPS with a real sense of aiming at something. The level design on MP3 is also incredible. Wandering through the sky city alone is worth the price of admission.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[ookaze]

So basically, you hate the Wii and its best games like Metroid Prime 3, and think that's a valid reason why Wii FPS controls are not good?
You prefer analog sticks? You may, but this has nothing to do with them being better than a Wiimote + Nunchuk combo.
The worst is that you only guess that a Wiimote is better than a sixaxis, when it's obvious!
I have both, I can confirm sixaxis is no match to a Wiimote, if only for the pointer.

And you add more nonsense like "is this a good feature or just a unique feature?". FYI, it's both!

Re:Wii FPS controls

[CheShACat]

It is for me. Its never been done right.
I agree almost entirely... but it was done right once, just once, by Goldeneye on the N64 which had a perfectly balanced controller and control system to the point where I really don't believe it would have played better with a mouse. This makes it even harder to understand why the system has sucked so badly for every single other FPS I've ever played with a joypad (and there have been many) and consequently been forced to shelve after a few levels.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Bobfrankly1]

Do you get a lot of Sun in the room you play the Wii in? In general if I have those issues drawing the curtains fixes them ( sunlight screws up communication with the sensor bar). I second this. The pointer on the wii remote is functionally an infrared camera looking for two IR emitters. Add in the sun and it's reflections off of common household items, and you effectively have 5-200 additional IR light sources, causing all manner of twitchiness.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[Anonymous Coward]

As a note, try to remember what the N64 controller was like, versus the ones we have today. Specifically, the joystick. You had a lot more resistance with it, especially when moving diagonally. Not enough to hurt your thumb (except if you had to rotate it 360 degrees constantly, like with the original Mario Party), but enough that you had to press more, and it would go to autocenter when you relaxed. Most joysticks on controllers today don't have that resistance, requiring a much more delicate touch that leads to overshooting.

Re:Wii FPS controls

[twistedsymphony]

If you give the console gamers the option of a keyboard/mouse that doesn't mean you're FORCING them to use it... I could somewhat understand why MS didn't want keyboard and mouse on the Xbox 1, but at this point in the game there's no reason they can't open up that kind of support for 3rd parties should they so desire to offer the option.

I had a keyboard and mouse on my Dreamcast back in the Day and Playing Quake III, UT, and Outtrigger was nice. Not to mention great games like Rez also supported the mouse and were much much easier to play using that instead of an analog stick.

As for backbreaking... Well maybe a console FPS with keyboard and mouse would be a good excuse to buy a Lapboard.

Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

but was Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii really as good as a mouse-and-keyboard PC FPS?

Metroid Prime 3 hit a weird spot. The first two Prime games certainly featured first person shooting, but didn't play anything like an FPS game. They played like an adventure game with a different camera angle. Prime 3 moved much closer to the FPS realm. If you're an FPS fan, you'll probably like the beginning and end of the game and tolerate the middle. If you're a Metroid fan, you'll probably feel the reverse.

There's no doubt Wiimote+Nunchuck beats the keyboard part of mouse+keyboard. Precision moving and jumping is far easier with an analog stick than with a keyboard. If like me you rarely play FPS games, the Wiimote is easier to use than a mouse. But my gut feeling is over time, the mouse would be slightly easier to be precise with as it's on a flat surface rather than being held in the air.

Of course, I play for the adventure, not the shooting, so I just left lock-on turned on, which means for the most part you only had to aim at bosses. If you found a good sitting position where you could rest the Wiimote on your knee and aim from there, you might be able to beat a mouse in precision.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[king-manic]

There's no doubt Wiimote+Nunchuck beats the keyboard part of mouse+keyboard. Precision moving and jumping is far easier with an analog stick than with a keyboard. If like me you rarely play FPS games, the Wiimote is easier to use than a mouse. But my gut feeling is over time, the mouse would be slightly easier to be precise with as it's on a flat surface rather than being held in the air. I strenuously reject this statement. The wiimote + nunchuk are on par for some things but a magnitude worse for responsiveness. there is a notable lag between action of the mote and action on screen. partly due to the wi fi partly due to the slowness of the motion sensors. Given a choice I'd go KB+mouse 100% of the time. Metroid 3, Zelda, Rayman et al have not shown any promise that the wiimote will be better then kb + mouse. Wiimote+chuk is better then dual sticks of course. The wiimote and chuk only beats the keyboard and mouse in catagory: more intuitive to learn. Other then that WASD+mouse has it beat in every way.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

I strenuously reject this statement. The wiimote + nunchuk are on par for some things but a magnitude worse for responsiveness. there is a notable lag between action of the mote and action on screen. partly due to the wi fi partly due to the slowness of the motion sensors. Given a choice I'd go KB+mouse 100% of the time. Metroid 3, Zelda, Rayman et al have not shown any promise that the wiimote will be better then kb + mouse. Wiimote+chuk is better then dual sticks of course. The wiimote and chuk only beats the keyboard and mouse in catagory: more intuitive to learn. Other then that WASD+mouse has it beat in every way.

Have you actually played Metroid? The aiming is done via the IR sensor, not the motion. There is no lag. Any issues I've noticed with the parts that are motion controlled have been due to my tendency to go through motions faster than Samus does the corresponding actions. If I match my timing to the animations, it works perfectly. If you're having lag issues, I'd recommend checking if you've got a large number of wifi hotspots flooding your 2.4GHz spectrum or something like that. There shouldn't be issues.

And no, WASD can never compete with an analog stick. Besides the general awkwardness of WASD, they're just digital buttons. It's just not possible to do precise movement with them. That's the reason for all the hate of jumping in FPS games.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[KDR_11k]

I don't see much wrong with digital controls, the only reason I might want an analog stick is to have more than 8 directions and with the mouse I can rotate them easily. The hate for platforming is mostly that the platform has to be below your viewpoint for you to stand on it instead of seeing it in your view and having a character that lands on it. Metroid Prime worked in part because the platforms simply had a unified distance so you just had to run and jump to make it, no depth perception necessary.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

And no, WASD can never compete with an analog stick. Besides the general awkwardness of WASD, they're just digital buttons. It's just not possible to do precise movement with them. That's the reason for all the hate of jumping in FPS games.

No, the hate for jumping in FPS games is that you can't see what the hell you are doing -- you can either see where you are jumping to, or where your feet are, but not both, so one way or another you always feel as though you are jumping blind.

Metroid gets around this through good level design. The analog motion control, though nice, really has nothing to do with it.

Oh but yeah, I've noticed no slow reaction times whatsoever with the wiimote and aiming in Metroid. The only thing that makes it inferior to the mouse is that you can't do instant 180s (or any other arbitrary turn). Oh, and by holding it out it's less stable than a mouse you rest your hand on, but hey, that just makes it feel more real to me.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[grumbel]

### Metroid gets around this through good level design.

Its not just level design, Metroid also automatically looks down a bit while you jump, which helps orientation and in addition it has very 'sticky' edges, so even if you miss a jump by a bit, you still make it to the other side safely, because you 'stick' to the edge and can make it up.

All that said, even with all this I still consider jumps in FPSs to be pretty annoying, not only are they harder, because you can see less, they are also simply less fun, because you need a body to do the real fun jumps (i.e. screw attack, Mario-like triple jump, ledge-grabs, etc.). Breakdown seems to be one of the view FPS that actually allows a lot or more advanced jumps, but even there it makes you for most part just motion-sick instead of being as much fun as third person.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

The hate for platforming is mostly that the platform has to be below your viewpoint for you to stand on it instead of seeing it in your view and having a character that lands on it.

I've never found that to be an issue. If I can see the target before I jump, it's not hard to do. Even if you can't see that well, as long as you've got analog controls you can fine tune well enough in the air to compensate as long as you were close.

Metroid Prime worked in part because the platforms simply had a unified distance so you just had to run and jump to make it, no depth perception necessary.

But the platforms don't have a uniform distance. The beginning of Prime 1 kept the jumps simple, but they got progressively harder throughout the game. Jumping between moving platforms isn't uncommon on the GameCube games, although I don't remember offhand if that was in the Wii one. The only thing they did was made it so that you didn't have to jump onto very small platforms too often, but Prime 3 did more of that.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

Its not just level design, Metroid also automatically looks down a bit while you jump, which helps orientation

I used to think that helped, but Prime 3 doesn't do that (at least not with the controls set to advanced sensitivity), and I didn't find jumping any harder in that game. Prime 3 had its share of precision jumping - for example, freezing the fuel gel spouts usually resulted in a pretty small area that you could land on.

in addition it has very 'sticky' edges, so even if you miss a jump by a bit, you still make it to the other side safely, because you 'stick' to the edge and can make it up.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

All that said, even with all this I still consider jumps in FPSs to be pretty annoying, not only are they harder, because you can see less, they are also simply less fun, because you need a body to do the real fun jumps (i.e. screw attack, Mario-like triple jump, ledge-grabs, etc.).

I'll mostly agree with that. If you took a pure shooter, I could see how you could prefer not having jumps. In a typical Metroid game, the jumping is more important than the shooting.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

No, the hate for jumping in FPS games is that you can't see what the hell you are doing -- you can either see where you are jumping to, or where your feet are, but not both, so one way or another you always feel as though you are jumping blind.

I've never cared to see where my feet are. I don't see that being an issue unless the level designer made the platforms way too small.

Metroid gets around this through good level design.

Good level design makes everything better, bad level design makes everything worse. You wouldn't say sniper rifles are a terrible idea in FPS games just because you played a game that only gave them to you in levels with any good sniping positions.

The analog motion control, though nice, really has nothing to do with it.

It has a huge thing to do with it. It makes it far easier to control the distance of your jump or correct it in mid-air.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

I've never cared to see where my feet are. I don't see that being an issue unless the level designer made the platforms way too small.

Or the jump large enough that the only way you could make it was if your feet were at the very edge of the platform when you jumped.

Turoc, the epitome of annoying jumping puzzles in FPS, demonstrated this frequently. The correct jumping procedure was: line up to target, look straight down at your shadow (no visible feet of course), run forward, hit jump when the center of the shadow was precisely at the edge of the platform. If you tried to "feel" where the edge of the platform was while looking forward, you'd either run off the platform or miss the jump.

Are you saying you never cared in Metroid where your feet are? Because it certainly matters in some other FPS games, and it 100% matters in true platform games that are either 2-D or 3-D 3rd person. It doesn't matter in Metroid because they made it not matter...

Good level design makes everything better, bad level design makes everything worse. You wouldn't say sniper rifles are a terrible idea in FPS games just because you played a game that only gave them to you in levels with any good sniping positions.

Okay... Then call it "not bad" level design. Because I'd certainly agree that jumping puzzles ala Turoc and most other FPS games that have them (thankfully few due to being generally reviled) are bad level design. Retro designed the levels in Metroid so that the jumping was not annoying given the camera angle. Call it "good", call it "not bad", I call it "fairly unique in all of 1st person shooter-dom and a breath of fresh air". That's why everyone was terrified when Metroid Prime was announced and heard it was a 1st person shooter with jumping, and relieved when the jumping despite all expectations was not annoying.

It has a huge thing to do with it. It makes it far easier to control the distance of your jump or correct it in mid-air.

There's no real need to do either of those things in Metroid, because of the level design. To the extent that you need to control the distance of your jump, you truly only need to stop it. Which doesn't require analog controls. Whereas conversely using analog stick for motion in Turoc didn't help at all...

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

Or the jump large enough that the only way you could make it was if your feet were at the very edge of the platform when you jumped.

Never found that to cause a problem in Metroid.

Are you saying you never cared in Metroid where your feet are? Because it certainly matters in some other FPS games, and it 100% matters in true platform games that are either 2-D or 3-D 3rd person. It doesn't matter in Metroid because they made it not matter...

Yes, in the Metroid Prime games I've never really cared where my feet were. Sure, sometimes when jumping across a broken bridge with jagged edges on both sides I'd miss the first time when I would've had no problem with it if I could've do it in third person, but those are the only cases its really an issue. And of course in a 3rd person view game you care where your feet are, because that's the only way you can judge where you character is.

Okay... Then call it "not bad" level design. Because I'd certainly agree that jumping puzzles ala Turoc and most other FPS games that have them (thankfully few due to being generally reviled) are bad level design. Retro designed the levels in Metroid so that the jumping was not annoying given the camera angle. Call it "good", call it "not bad", I call it "fairly unique in all of 1st person shooter-dom and a breath of fresh air".

As I said in the beginning, I very rarely play FPS games, so I don't know what the norm is. All I know is Metroid handles it the way I would expect it to be handled. If you design a game like Turok, I just consider that to be a badly made game.

That's why everyone was terrified when Metroid Prime was announced and heard it was a 1st person shooter with jumping, and relieved when the jumping despite all expectations was not annoying.

The jumping wasn't what caused the horror. Metroid games are about exploration with some shooting thrown in (the opposite of most first person games), and a lot of abilities that are hard to imagine fitting in a first person game. As is, Prime 1 had to scrap the screw attack, drastically limit the space jump, and remove the speed booster entirely. I don't have a link, but the producer of Prime 1 recently did an interview about the development process. He revealed that they were wanting to leave the morph ball out because it was extremely difficult to get working well. It only made it in because Miyamoto said to them "You get the morph ball perfect, or we'll find someone else to make the game." Jumping was the least of people's worries.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[KDR_11k]

Dunno, I didn't have many problems with platforming outside of Half-Life IIRC, may just have been the Half-Life movement physics.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[ookaze]

there is a notable lag between action of the mote and action on screen. partly due to the wi fi partly due to the slowness of the motion sensors. No there is not. Unless you're able to see each of the frames displayed by second, which I doubt.
Let me guess, you have a HDTV, right?
The only lag seen usually comes from the TV processing. So you have it backwards actually:
the more precise your controller is, the more you will detect the lag induced by your HDTV processing.
The only time I saw lag on my TV was with the Wii on my HDTV, which now I play in game mode, and I don't see any lag anymore. I got my HDTV after the Wii, and never had any lag on the old CRT one.
And keep in mind that my HDTV was advertised with 5 ms refresh, so as most HDTV are advertised for worse, even in game mode, I'm sure they're still laggy.

Given a choice I'd go KB+mouse 100% of the time. Metroid 3, Zelda, Rayman et al have not shown any promise that the wiimote will be better then kb + mouse. Wiimote+chuk is better then dual sticks of course. The wiimote and chuk only beats the keyboard and mouse in catagory: more intuitive to learn. Other then that WASD+mouse has it beat in every way. The sole thing on which I agree is the "more intuitive to learn" part, which is the main goal of controllers on consoles.
So the Wiimote + Nunchuk combo wins hands down.
Then, precision is better with the Nunchuk than with a keyboard, which should be obvious to you, as the Nunchuk has an analog controller, that keyboard doesn't have, and the Nunchuk is designed to be operated easily without looking at it, while the keyboard is not.
The only way in which the Wiimote loses to the mouse, is precision, and not by much, but as it's on the Wii, which doesn't have high resolution like on a PC to begin with, this point is moot, for now at least.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[king-manic]

No there is not. Unless you're able to see each of the frames displayed by second, which I doubt.
Let me guess, you have a HDTV, right?
The only lag seen usually comes from the TV processing. So you have it backwards actually:
the more precise your controller is, the more you will detect the lag induced by your HDTV processing.
The only time I saw lag on my TV was with the Wii on my HDTV, which now I play in game mode, and I don't see any lag anymore. I got my HDTV after the Wii, and never had any lag on the old CRT one.
And keep in mind that my HDTV was advertised with 5 ms refresh, so as most HDTV are advertised for worse, even in game mode, I'm sure they're still laggy. The lag is not present with a 360 nor my PS3 so no it is not in fact my TV. (6ms)

The sole thing on which I agree is the "more intuitive to learn" part, which is the main goal of controllers on consoles.
So the Wiimote + Nunchuk combo wins hands down.
Then, precision is better with the Nunchuk than with a keyboard, which should be obvious to you, as the Nunchuk has an analog controller, that keyboard doesn't have, and the Nunchuk is designed to be operated easily without looking at it, while the keyboard is not.
The only way in which the Wiimote loses to the mouse, is precision, and not by much, but as it's on the Wii, which doesn't have high resolution like on a PC to begin with, this point is moot, for now at least. WASD is basically been burned into my skull for over a decade. It is every bit as precise as the nunchuk due entirely to how ham fisted many console games are with controls. I've noticed lag in RE4, Rayman, Zelda:TP, have yet to play metroid 3.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[SethraLavode]

The lag is not present with a 360 nor my PS3 so no it is not in fact my TV. (6ms) It's not the refresh rate that's at issue, it's the scalar processor lag. The Xbox 360 and PS3 are probably outputting at your television's native resolution, so it doesn't have to scale the image. The Wii probably has to be upscaled, which is just enough to cause a noticable lag. If your TV has a "Game Mode", where the signal bypasses the image scaling performed by the TV, you might want to try and see if that improves the response time.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[ShadowsHawk]

Let me start by saying that I love MP3. However, the controls are not perfect. I really enjoy the aiming accuracy and would purchase MP 1 and 2 if they re-issued with the wii controls. The issue that I have is the gestures. They work around 97% of the time, but that 3% annoys the the hell of out me.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

As I said in the beginning, I very rarely play FPS games, so I don't know what the norm is. All I know is Metroid handles it the way I would expect it to be handled.

Sorry I must have missed where you said that, though I did get that impression.

So let me say that I think you should give credit where credit is due. Any kind of "platforming" in just about all FPS games -- in particular console games -- has been extremely annoying and difficult and generally considered to have been a bad idea to include at all. Turoc epitomizes this not so much because it's jumping was especially annoying, but because they insisted on putting so much of it in, and making the jumps 3rd-person-platformer difficult, often with the penalty for failure being death. But it wasn't actually worse jumping than most other FPS. And it had nothing to do with analog controls, as all these games were on consoles with at least one analog stick.

Metroid Prime was the first FPS that made jumping feel natural, and easy enough that it could actually have moderate platforming puzzles that didn't make you want to drive to the developer's house and stab out their eyes with a fork, and were in fact actually fun. If you consider an FPS with bad jumping to be a "badly made game", then every FPS with jumping puzzles was badly made. Or, as many people believed, the idea of platforming puzzles in an FPS itself was bad game design.

Retro Studios showed that this wasn't necessarily the case, and the secret does in fact lie in the nature of the jumps required in the game, i.e. the level design. You should really give the Retro level designers their due, because it is only by their hard effort that you were able to have an FPS-platforming experience that feels so natural that you can't imagine it being any other way.

The jumping wasn't what caused the horror. Metroid games are about exploration with some shooting thrown in (the opposite of most first person games), and a lot of abilities that are hard to imagine fitting in a first person game.

Why yes jumping is what caused the horror among Metroid fans who were also familiar with FPSes that had tried it before. Platforming was an inherent aspect of exploration in previous metroid games, we knew it was going to be a major aspect of the new Metroid game, and all attempts to merge platforming and first person perspective had up to that point failed. Thus the fear, and the huge relief when it turned out to have been done better than ever before.

As is, Prime 1 had to scrap the screw attack, drastically limit the space jump, and remove the speed booster entirely. I don't have a link, but the producer of Prime 1 recently did an interview about the development process. He revealed that they were wanting to leave the morph ball out because it was extremely difficult to get working well. It only made it in because Miyamoto said to them "You get the morph ball perfect, or we'll find someone else to make the game." Jumping was the least of people's worries.

That's funny, because a couple of those are examples of abilities directly related to jumping and the difficulty of making it work in 3d. The space jump in particular was changed not to give you the free-roaming that it gave you in previous Metroids, but to make jumping more forgiving (since you could activate the space jump at any point during your normal jump so it was easier to use, and could correct any short-jumps that you made).

Anyway, I'm sure the developers had lots of fears and qualms developing an FPS Metroid. It's interesting to hear that they were thinking of ditching the morph ball, and denied by Miyamoto. To the extent that they could even entertain the notion of dropping morph ball, do you think they could have ditched jumping as a tool of exploration? No, and for the ones responsible for making that work, it surely wasn't the least of their worries. Something incorporated that deeply into the fundamental design sense for th

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

Retro Studios showed that this wasn't necessarily the case, and the secret does in fact lie in the nature of the jumps required in the game, i.e. the level design. You should really give the Retro level designers their due, because it is only by their hard effort that you were able to have an FPS-platforming experience that feels so natural that you can't imagine it being any other way.

I certainly give them their due - I consider Metroid Prime to be the best 3D game ever made.

That's funny, because a couple of those are examples of abilities directly related to jumping and the difficulty of making it work in 3d. The space jump in particular was changed not to give you the free-roaming that it gave you in previous Metroids, but to make jumping more forgiving (since you could activate the space jump at any point during your normal jump so it was easier to use, and could correct any short-jumps that you made).

Yes, I did list proper space jump (not to mention wall jumping) and screw attack as a limits, but those are the type of things that really aren't possible at all from a first person view. Proper space jumping would be hard to do in 3D even from a third person view due to camera issues (keep in mind you'd need to be using 2 analog sticks + the jump button at the same time to do effective 2D-style space jumping). First person wall jumping would only really be possible if Samus did an instant 180 degree spin when you kicked off the wall, which would probably be rather disorienting.

I also wouldn't say that space jump was intended to make jumping more forgiving. The first Prime to have it, Prime 2, didn't let you get it until you were 90% of the way through the game. It was more of a bonus for the people who missed it. Also, it's main purpose was to jump long distances. You couldn't even get out of the room you got the space jump in unless you learned how to get the maximum jumping distance possible. There was very little margin for error in that room.

Anyway, I'm sure the developers had lots of fears and qualms developing an FPS Metroid. It's interesting to hear that they were thinking of ditching the morph ball, and denied by Miyamoto. To the extent that they could even entertain the notion of dropping morph ball, do you think they could have ditched jumping as a tool of exploration? No, and for the ones responsible for making that work, it surely wasn't the least of their worries. Something incorporated that deeply into the fundamental design sense for the game such that players aren't even aware it is there is not a little niggling detail. As evidenced by the many, many games that couldn't pull it off.

Were the developers worried about getting jumping right? Sure. As were the developers of Mario Galaxy. But Mario fans weren't worried that they wouldn't get it right.

Honestly, I saw a lot of commentary on the Metroid Prime worries. But everything was "How will you do a screw attack from a 1st person view? That view would probably make you throw up." The extent of the commentary I saw on normal jumping had to do with height issues. In the 2D games, Samus could jump ~4x her height, which would be kinda weird in first person.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[xhrit]

Urban Terror has all those trick jumps (ledge-grabs, chain/ wall jumps, powe slides). It is a modified open source quake 3 engine. Check it out.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[xhrit]

The keyboard has 101 keys; roughly half are reachable from the hand hovering over wasd. Keyboard wins.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

I certainly give them their due - I consider Metroid Prime to be the best 3D game ever made.

Yeah, it's awesome. :) I'm just saying, part of that was making the jumping feel as natural as possible, and a lot of that has to do with level design, so give them their due.

Yes, I did list proper space jump (not to mention wall jumping) and screw attack as a limits, but those are the type of things that really aren't possible at all from a first person view.

Right, right, they scrapped things that make little or no sense in a first person perspective.

I also wouldn't say that space jump was intended to make jumping more forgiving. The first Prime to have it, Prime 2, didn't let you get it until you were 90% of the way through the game. It was more of a bonus for the people who missed it. Also, it's main purpose was to jump long distances.

You are mistaken; there was space jump in Metroid Prime, you got it about halfway through. You got it even earlier than that in Prime 2, not 90% through.

You are correct though that it's use as an upgrade was to enable you to jump distances that were impossible before and open up new areas like almost all Metroid upgrades do. I'm talking about the implementation as far as making jumping forgiving goes -- in previous metroids, it only worked if you used it at the peak of your jumps, whereas in Prime you can use it at any point of your jump, which made any jump that -didn't- required a maximum-length jump much easier. You could, for example, make a very sloppy attempt at a jump that would require a max-length non-space jump, then space-jump at the last minute to make sure you made it all the way if you thought you might fall short.

Were the developers worried about getting jumping right? Sure. As were the developers of Mario Galaxy. But Mario fans weren't worried that they wouldn't get it right.

Mario Galaxy is 3rd person, and they proved 3rd person platforming could be done well back in Mario 64, as well as countless other 3rd-person platforming games since then. Metroid was the first FPS that made jumping work well. It's not nearly as easy to do, as evidenced by all the failures of other games.

Mario fans had no reason to be worried. Metroid fans were worried they wouldn't get it right and rightfully so. You didn't play FPSes and don't understand why they were worried, but they were.

The extent of the commentary I saw on normal jumping had to do with height issues.

Okay, fine, you just weren't aware of it, just like you weren't aware that previous FPSes had crappy jumping and Prime was the first good one. You must have missed the reviews too where the reviewers expressed their relief that the jumping was in fact easy and fun instead of annoying and painful like all previous experience would have led them to expect.

I really don't know what you're objecting to at this point. This is all I'm saying: Metroid Prime's designers, in particular their level designers, made jumping natural and intuitive in an FPS for the first time ever. That's it. Take it or leave it, but it's true, and they deserve mad props for that achievement (among all their other ones).

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

You are mistaken; there was space jump in Metroid Prime, you got it about halfway through. You got it even earlier than that in Prime 2, not 90% through.

I said there was no *proper* space jump in Metroid Prime. In the Prime games, space jump is just a double jump. In the 2D Metroids, Space Jump is more like the Screw Attack in Prime 2 & 3. You spin through the air and jump again every time you press the jump button, almost flying.

Prime 2 added the Screw Attack, which acted more like 2D Space Jump, except limited to 5 jumps and no gaining height. Interestingly, the ability for the Screw Attack to actually work as an attack was added at the last moment due to fan requests. It wasn't supposed to work as an attack at first, only as a jumping ability. You get the Screw Attack in the Ing Hive. At that point, the only things left to do in the game are collect the last Ing Hive Key, fight the Ing Hive boss, then fight the final bosses of the game. It's the last major item you get, other than the weapon you get for beating the Ing Hive boss.

Anyway, it looks like you mixed up talk of 2D style space jump for the weak space jump the 3D games ended up with.

Okay, fine, you just weren't aware of it, just like you weren't aware that previous FPSes had crappy jumping and Prime was the first good one. You must have missed the reviews too where the reviewers expressed their relief that the jumping was in fact easy and fun instead of annoying and painful like all previous experience would have led them to expect.

I guess if you read reviews at sites that consider FPS games the end all be all you might've seen that, but I'll tell you a very large number of reviews didn't bother to mention it at all.

It just seemed incredibly obvious from the beginning that Nintendo wouldn't release the game if jumping wasn't going to work well. Miyamoto had the final say on all design decisions. There's no way he would have let them get very far in the game if jumping didn't work well. Far less obvious was how many of the unique Metroid abilities could be done in a 1st person game. If they had cut the morph ball - which as I mentioned before, Retro wanted to do - I don't think it would have felt like a Metroid game and wouldn't have gone over well.

It's an adventure game with a different camera angle. If you look at it that way, it's not surprising. If you think of it as an FPS game, I guess it is.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

I said there was no *proper* space jump in Metroid Prime.

Okay you should be more clear then since I was talking about the actual space jump in the game and how they designed it to make jumping more forgiving, and you were talking about "proper" space jump and screw attack separately in one paragraph, but then switched to using "space jump" to mean "'proper' space jump as represented by screw attack in Prime 2" without any explanation that you were doing so. That's very confusing.

Anyway, it looks like you mixed up talk of 2D style space jump for the weak space jump the 3D games ended up with.

No, you mixed up when I said that space jump was designed to make jumping more forgiving with your swap of space jump and screw attack. I never made or accepted any such replacement. I'm talking about "space jump". The space jump in Prime is the weakened version of space jump in previous games, and it's no accident that they did so. It was one of the things they did to make jumping in Prime easier and better.

I guess if you read reviews at sites that consider FPS games the end all be all you might've seen that, but I'll tell you a very large number of reviews didn't bother to mention it at all.

It has nothing to do with what esteem they hold FPS games. It has to do with playing First-Person games with jumping, and finding that the jumping universally sucked, and being concerned that it would suck in Prime as well.

It's an adventure game with a different camera angle. If you look at it that way, it's not surprising. If you think of it as an FPS game, I guess it is.

The camera angle is WHY First-Person anything before Prime had terrible jumping! You can't just say "Oh it's an adventure game with a different camera angle, so it makes sense that jumping would work well", because that ignores how you make it work well with the different camera angle. It's not automatic! Prime is not the first "first person adventure" game, but it is the first one that had natural jumping. "FPS" vs "FPA" isn't what makes jumping difficult to get right, it's "FP" vs "TP".

If you've never played any other first-person perspective games with jumping puzzles, perhaps it isn't surprising because you just aren't aware of the challenges. If you have, then it is surprising.

That's basically what it comes down to. The only first person perspective game with jumping puzzles you've played is Prime, which is the only one to have gotten it right, therefore you don't appreciate it's accomplishments in this regard and just assume it's as simple as declaring your game to be an adventure not a shooter. It's easy to take something for granted if you don't know anything different.

I really don't get where you're coming from. You've stated that you haven't really played any other first person games and thus aren't aware of the problems they had, you've also said you give props to Retro for making the best 3d game ever -- what's your hangup against just acknowledging that, while you may not have appreciated it at the time, one of their non-trivial accomplishments was creating the first jumping puzzles in a first person game that weren't annoying?

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

Okay you should be more clear then since I was talking about the actual space jump in the game and how they designed it to make jumping more forgiving, and you were talking about "proper" space jump and screw attack separately in one paragraph, but then switched to using "space jump" to mean "'proper' space jump as represented by screw attack in Prime 2" without any explanation that you were doing so. That's very confusing.

I was clear. I brought it up when talking about things that wouldn't transition well from the 2D games when I brought up space jump, mentioning that they didn't even attempt it until Prime 2 and didn't make it a core part of the game. That's the only context I ever brought up space jump in. You responded by talking about the implementation of space jump in the 3D games, which is something very different from space jump in the 2D games.

The camera angle is WHY First-Person anything before Prime had terrible jumping! You can't just say "Oh it's an adventure game with a different camera angle, so it makes sense that jumping would work well", because that ignores how you make it work well with the different camera angle. It's not automatic! Prime is not the first "first person adventure" game, but it is the first one that had natural jumping. "FPS" vs "FPA" isn't what makes jumping difficult to get right, it's "FP" vs "TP".

No, the camera angle isn't why. If the camera angle was the reason why, then it would've sucked in Prime as well. Prime 1 & 2 tilted the camera very slightly when you jump. A lot of people - myself included - considered that to be a benefit. But Prime 3 doesn't do that, and it isn't any harder to jump in that game. I don't see how you can blame the camera angle if Metroid could pull it off great with the same camera angle.

That's basically what it comes down to. The only first person perspective game with jumping puzzles you've played is Prime, which is the only one to have gotten it right, therefore you don't appreciate it's accomplishments in this regard and just assume it's as simple as declaring your game to be an adventure not a shooter. It's easy to take something for granted if you don't know anything different.

I haven't put significant time into many shooters, but I've played a little of them every now and then. The problems I've had with jumping in them was 1) using WASD to move, which gives you very little precision in your movement speed and 2) bad level design requiring you to land on ledges so small there was no margin of error at all. On the console end, the biggest issue has usually been on a dual analog setup, the the face buttons aren't quick to access.

That's basically what it comes down to. The only first person perspective game with jumping puzzles you've played is Prime, which is the only one to have gotten it right, therefore you don't appreciate it's accomplishments in this regard and just assume it's as simple as declaring your game to be an adventure not a shooter. It's easy to take something for granted if you don't know anything different.

The adventure aspect comes into play in the control design. If they did a dual analog control scheme focused around a typical shooting experience, the jumping would've sucked. If your thumbs are expected to be on the analog sticks, you can't make effective use of the buttons.

I really don't get where you're coming from. You've stated that you haven't really played any other first person games and thus aren't aware of the problems they had, you've also said you give props to Retro for making the best 3d game ever -- what's your hangup against just acknowledging that, while you may not have appreciated it at the time, one of their non-trivial accomplishments was creating the first jumping puzzles in a first person game that weren't annoying?

I just really see the jumping as the least of their accomplishments. Retro doesn't seem to think it's that big a deal either. If you read any interviews with them, their difficulties wer

Re:Metroid controls were great

[Chris Burke]

I was clear. I brought it up when talking about things that wouldn't transition well from the 2D games when I brought up space jump, mentioning that they didn't even attempt it until Prime 2 and didn't make it a core part of the game. That's the only context I ever brought up space jump in.

Um no dude you weren't clear at all:

Yes, I did list proper space jump (not to mention wall jumping) and screw attack as a limits, but those are the type of things that really aren't possible at all from a first person view. Proper space jumping would be hard to do in 3D even from a third person view due to camera issues (keep in mind you'd need to be using 2 analog sticks + the jump button at the same time to do effective 2D-style space jumping). First person wall jumping would only really be possible if Samus did an instant 180 degree spin when you kicked off the wall, which would probably be rather disorienting.

I also wouldn't say that space jump was intended to make jumping more forgiving. The first Prime to have it, Prime 2, didn't let you get it until you were 90% of the way through the game. It was more of a bonus for the people who missed it. Also, it's main purpose was to jump long distances. You couldn't even get out of the room you got the space jump in unless you learned how to get the maximum jumping distance possible. There was very little margin for error in that room.

First you're talking about Screw Attack and Space Jump separately, and how both are hard to implement in 3D in addition to other things, and then with no warning or explanation you start using "space jump" (dropping even the modifier "proper") to describe Screw Attack in Prime. At what point did you explain that you felt that Screw Attack was the true implementation of "space jump" in the Prime series? Right the next post, because you sure didn't explain it here. And I had clearly been talking about Prime's space jump when I was talking about its design for making jumping forgiving, then you mentally replaced "space jump" with "screw attack" and said you disagreed. Honestly how confusing could you be?

And I think that's pretty stupid besides. "Space jump" in Prime is not "proper" space jump because it is limited to one extra jump, but "Screw Attack" in Prime is because it is only limited to 5 "jumps", even though you can't increase your height or change the direction of your jumps? That's even less like the 2D space jump than Prime's space jump! It actually serves the same function as the original space jump -- allowing you to attain both height and distances and perform aerial maneuvers to get around corners and other tricks that are impossible without the upgrade. That's why they called it "Space Jump" in Prime -- it's the 3D space jump, limited because it's now 3d.

No, the camera angle isn't why. If the camera angle was the reason why, then it would've sucked in Prime as well. Prime 1 & 2 tilted the camera very slightly when you jump. A lot of people - myself included - considered that to be a benefit. But Prime 3 doesn't do that, and it isn't any harder to jump in that game. I don't see how you can blame the camera angle if Metroid could pull it off great with the same camera angle.

What? No! First Person camera angle versus Third Person camera angle, not some little tilt to the camera from first person. Like I just said it's "FP" vs "TP" that makes it hard! Prime is the first game to make jumping work in a First Person view, the thing we've been talking about this whole time!

This is obvious if you thought about it for two freaking seconds instead of being a stubborn mule. Think about the hardest jump in the Prime series, and the fact that it's about equal to the easiest jump in Mario 64. Can you even imagine trying to do something like, say, the Mario Sunshine Challenge Levels in a 1st Person view? No! Because making jumping work in 1st Person is hard, and r

Re:Metroid controls were great

[edwdig]

I will leave it at this.

You're arguing that features that were so hard to get right that Miyamoto almost canceled the project over were trivial and are insisting the real accomplishments lie in things that they've never discussed in any interviews.

Space jump is spinning through the air and jumping repeatedly. Something not possible from a first person view. Look for interviews with Retro about the Screw Attack in Echoes. They realized people were disappointed by not having anything resembling the original space jump, so they made an effort to recreate it in Echoes. The Screw Attack in Echoes was intended entirely to recreate the 2D experience of the space jump. It wasn't actually possible to use it as an attack until near the end of the development process, and was only done do to feedback from people playing prerelease demo builds. That's what the developers said. Yeah, it's not as good as 2D space jump, but it at least resembles it. You're the one who went off about the double jump version of space jump.

Have I played 2D platformers dumb enough to use select for jump? No. But there's plenty that arranged the face button assignments awkwardly making it hard to hit the necessary button combos. But there's plenty where it's hard to control your jumps (like using WASD to move in an FPS) or the ledges are too small. Most people write them off as bad games and forget them.

You've yet to come up with any reason it's impressive other than they designed the jump with reasonable distances, which is rule #1 of designing jumping challenges. You also attribute space jump for making it easier, but in Prime 1 you don't get space jump until ~1/3 through the game, and in the last 1/3 of the game, a lot of the jumps require you to come very close to the max jumping distance possible with the space jump, which makes things harder, not easier.

Jumping in the Primes comes down to:
1) Reasonable jumping distances
2) Analog movement allowing you to alter your trajectory mid-air
2) A control scheme that makes it easy to jump while having full control of your weapons

That's it. And I'm done.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[yoyhed]

Well, what made it easy to platform in the Prime games was that Retro was smart enough to have your view tilt down a little when you jump, so you can see where you're landing.

Re:Metroid controls were great

[yoyhed]

freezing the fuel gel spouts

You remember the room with the 2 ancient statue guys in the wall, and the little pool/waterfall of fuel gel you had to freeze? That FUCKING TURTLE that shot shit in the air at you when you were trying to jump across to the next fuel gel platform.. godDAMNIT.

Wii mote in first person shooters

[Lazerf4rt]

There's no way the Wii mote compares to a mouse and keyboard for shooters.

The only reason it's usable at all in Metroid Prime 3 is because the Z button auto-locks your view onto the target.

If it wasn't for that feature, the controls would be hopeless.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[trdrstv]

There's no way the Wii mote compares to a mouse and keyboard for shooters.

The only reason it's usable at all in Metroid Prime 3 is because the Z button auto-locks your view onto the target.

If it wasn't for that feature, the controls would be hopeless.

On the default "n00b setting", yes it does this. On "Advanced" the Z button locks the camera on a specific target, but gives you free range shooting ability anywhere. This is the way it should be played.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[HalAtWork]

You're way off base here. The way I play Metroid 3 is on the most sensitive setting with no lock-on targetting... The only time I ever use the lock-on button at all is because when you hold that button down, it locks your movement into strafe, which makes it simple to walk across straight and narrow areas like tiny bridges or whatever... or if I want to jump a lot but still want to be facing forwards. Even then, when lock-on mode is turned on in this way, you can still move the targetting reticle around to aim at different areas of the screen, all it does is it freezes the screen in the direction it was in when you pressed the button... you still have to aim at what you want to shoot at.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[edwdig]

On the default "n00b setting", yes it does this. On "Advanced" the Z button locks the camera on a specific target, but gives you free range shooting ability anywhere. This is the way it should be played.

Advanced sensitivity + Z lock for me. It's an adventure game, not a shooter. Why make disposing of the wildlife time consuming when the terrain is your real enemy?

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[IceCreamGuy]

While I've been know to aggressively lash out at close friends for even positing the idea that a controller comes anywhere close to the accuracy and functionality of a mouse and keyboard, I have to disagree with you here. First off, who the hell plays that game with Z-lock on? It's like playing OoT with Z-Lock on; sure if you've never played a video game before it can be helpful, but it's more satisfying to actually become skilled at something like that; which brings me to my main point; when you become very familiar with the Wiimote-controls for Metroid Prime, the potential is greater than a mouse. I play Half-life through once a month on hard using only the pistol until I get to the giant testicle boss, I play CS, I play Unreal... I'm not some jackass who doesn't love his mouse, but to completely dismiss the Wiimote's potential like that just seems to me to be a little flippant.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[Junior J. Junior III]

So what? It does have that feature, and you have to take the controls as a whole. A keyboard/mouse with no fire button would be equally useless. What's your point?

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[edwdig]

First off, who the hell plays that game with Z-lock on?

People playing the game for the adventure, not the shooting. You know, the stuff Metroid games are known for.

It's like playing OoT with Z-Lock on; sure if you've never played a video game before it can be helpful, but it's more satisfying to actually become skilled at something like that

I'm assuming you mean Ocarina of Time here... why would you not use Z-Lock? It's just a different set of controls that work a lot better in certain situations. Not using it is just rather arbitrarily limiting your options to add challenge - not really any different than playing the game and refusing the collect optional items.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[IceCreamGuy]

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree; I find that the shooting in Metroid, once you get used to it, becomes second nature, and it's a lot more satisfying for me to add that extra level of interactivity in the game. I certainly don't feel it takes away from the adventure aspect, just adds another layer to it with a little patience. As far as OoT is concerned, to me and every other Zelda fan I know, the Z-lock inhibits advanced gameplay by creating an extra mechanical action while targeting; with it on you have to hit the button three times to change targets. It's good for beginners because it helps them stay on a target until it's defeated, however when you need to quickly switch between targets or position the camera during combat, it is extremely prohibitive. On a different note, another reason I think the Metroid controls trump at least other FPSs on consoles is the simple fact that you can aim while doing other actions. I was so damn pissed when I realized while playing HL2 on the 360 that I had to move my finger off the stick just to jump or duck, and then it occurred to me that you can't jump, duck and aim all at once in any FPS on a console, and they're simply designed from the ground up to work around this. I think that sucks balls, but Metroid Prime: Corruption changed that and I hope other developers learn from it. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk before, the GP just got me (a Nintendo fanboi) a little fired up by bashing Metroid.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[edwdig]

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree; I find that the shooting in Metroid, once you get used to it, becomes second nature, and it's a lot more satisfying for me to add that extra level of interactivity in the game. I certainly don't feel it takes away from the adventure aspect, just adds another layer to it with a little patience.

I played about 1/3 of Corruption with Z-Lock off, then turned it on for the rest. I could handle it fine, but it just felt like work. I've never been a fan of precision aiming - I played just about every major FPS up to Quake 1, then basically completely stopped after that, as I just don't find aiming in 3D fun.

As far as OoT is concerned, to me and every other Zelda fan I know, the Z-lock inhibits advanced gameplay by creating an extra mechanical action while targeting; with it on you have to hit the button three times to change targets. It's good for beginners because it helps them stay on a target until it's defeated, however when you need to quickly switch between targets or position the camera during combat, it is extremely prohibitive.

Oh, I'll definitely agree with you that the z lock is a pain in a crowded room, but a sword fight against an enemy with a shield is just a huge pain in the ass without using z lock. Switching between the sword and arrows mid fight without z lock is going to be a pain.

On a different note, another reason I think the Metroid controls trump at least other FPSs on consoles is the simple fact that you can aim while doing other actions.

You're right on that. That's why I was glad they've had targetting in the 3 Prime games, and cringed any time there was a rumor of Prime 2 having dual analog controls... you need access to way too many buttons in the Prime games for dual analog to work.

then it occurred to me that you can't jump, duck and aim all at once in any FPS on a console, and they're simply designed from the ground up to work around this.

You've planted a very strange image in my head now. Maybe that's typical in modern FPS games, but to someone who doesn't play them, damn that sounds weird.

Sorry if I sounded like a jerk before, the GP just got me (a Nintendo fanboi) a little fired up by bashing Metroid.

I know how you feel. As a huge Metroid fan who doesn't like FPS games, I'm rather tired of the FPS fanboys bashing on the Metroid Prime games because they're not Halo...

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[Lazerf4rt]

What's your point?

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[Chris Burke]

Advanced sensitivity + Z lock for me. It's an adventure game, not a shooter. Why make disposing of the wildlife time consuming when the terrain is your real enemy?

Cus it's more fun. To me, anyway. Fortunately the game is designed really well and will still be just as fun for those who don't want to have to aim at the wildlife.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF...

Okay, total n00b here. I don't use the Z-lock function; it's annoying, too easy for you to lose the target but stay in locked camera mode. It's much easier to just aim on the fly.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[75th Trombone]

I think you two are using different definitions of "Z-lock". Edwdig, this sentence:

Switching between the sword and arrows mid fight without z lock is going to be a pain.

makes me think you're confusing Z-lock with the whole concept of Z-targeting. Z-lock in OoT is when you don't have to hold the Z button to stay Z-targeted. Turning off Z-lock doesn't mean giving up Z-targeting altogether.

Or maybe I'm the one who's misinterpreting.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[Junior J. Junior III]

I guess my point is that it's a good thing there's a Z button.

If the system would suck without a Z button, but it DOES have a Z button, then you don't have a valid criticism.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[edwdig]

makes me think you're confusing Z-lock with the whole concept of Z-targeting. Z-lock in OoT is when you don't have to hold the Z button to stay Z-targeted. Turning off Z-lock doesn't mean giving up Z-targeting altogether.

Oh... I never knew there was an option to change that. Wish I knew that ~10 years ago :) I thought he was against Z-targeting and couldn't understand it. He was comparing it to the lock-on option in Prime 3, so it seemed a reasonable assumption.

Re:Wii mote in first person shooters

[75th Trombone]

Yes, his was the original mistake, I was just extremely short on time when I made my post and didn't have time to type the second half.

Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[trdrstv]

The only reason this is controversial is because the wiimote doesn't have good enough aim. It's often off by an inch or more on smaller tv's. This is hard on hard core FPS fans, but for me this isn't a problem. First, between wrestling with the auto-aim feature on a lot of shooters and using two analog sticks to control my movement and aim, I find correcting for the wiimote's bad aim to be easy by comparison. I'd rather have faster, more responsive aim that's off by a consistent amount than have to use a regular controller.

I didn't have that issue with a big screen. I wonder where that line really diverges, is it bad on say 19" TV, but Sweet at 42"+ ? Dunno. It was pretty easy for me to pick off people in the distance on my projector and I have a 92" screen on that.

I know I'll get flamed to hell for this, but unlike the article I think the Wii Controls are already better than the PC's (and there is still room for improvement*). The Advanced sensitivity on Metroid Prime 3 is "Nearly, but not quite as sensitive as a mouse", but for what little sensitivity is lost, the Analog on the Nunchuck kicks the shit out of WASD, and there is simply nothing that can compare on the PC with the visceral immersion of the Grapple gun.

Using your left arm to throw a grapple on you're opponent's shield, then jerking your arm back to pull the shield out of their hand so you can blast them with your arm cannon is something you can't get elsewhere. Add that with full analog movement, and you have an experience that not only rivals, but betters the competition.

*Games are already improving on the design, play Medal of Honor Heroes 2 and customize your aim sensitivity to achieve mouse level precision if you like.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

*Games are already improving on the design, play Medal of Honor Heroes 2 and customize your aim sensitivity to achieve mouse level precision if you like.

almost every PC shooter allow you to customize your mouse sensitivity, from Quake to Counter Strike... Dont know what PC gamers would ever do without that.
But Medal of Honor did innovate upon the shooting scheme but allowing you to manually look over covers at the direction you want.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[trdrstv]

*Games are already improving on the design, play Medal of Honor Heroes 2 and customize your aim sensitivity to achieve mouse level precision if you like.

almost every PC shooter allow you to customize your mouse sensitivity, from Quake to Counter Strike... Dont know what PC gamers would ever do without that. But Medal of Honor did innovate upon the shooting scheme but allowing you to manually look over covers at the direction you want.

Sorry if I was unclear. I was not commenting on customization as an innovation in this particular game, rather I was commenting on how MoH Heroes 2 (with its' customization options) can actually reach mouse levels of sensitivity on the Wii, and how that was an improvement on the Metroid Prime 3's (Still wonderful) controls.

Thanks.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Hatta]

Add that with full analog movement, and you have an experience that not only rivals, but betters the competition.

The "experience" might be better, but the controls might be worse. You might have more fun playing with the wii controls, but do they actually let you win as often as you would playing with mouse and keyboard? The only way to know is to let PC and wii players duke it out online and see who wins the most.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[AgentPaper]

I wonder where that line really diverges, is it bad on say 19" TV, but Sweet at 42"+ ? Dunno.

MP3's controls were just fine on our 32" CRT. I stand about 6-8' away from the TV when I play, and while I will admit that the nunchuck's accelerometer is a bit twitchy (e.g. when trying to grapple a shield off something), I never once had a problem with the aiming.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[dolson]

You stand while you play Metroid? You do know that those Wii Would Like To Play commercials are just ads, not visual user guides, right? (In other words: you are allowed to sit.)

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[vux984]

The "experience" might be better, but the controls might be worse. You might have more fun playing with the wii controls, but do they actually let you win as often as you would playing with mouse and keyboard? The only way to know is to let PC and wii players duke it out online and see who wins the most.

That would be an extremely silly definition of 'better' and 'worse'.

The -experience- is what's important.

If you could play with a keyboard and mouse against someone who was ACTUALLY inside a 'star trek holodeck', would you seriously judge that keyboard and mouse was the better controller?

Simply because after a couple hours, you were still going strong raking in the kills and jumping around like a lunatic, while your opponents are exhausted and can barely hold their guns steady?

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Hatta]

If a player using keyboard and mouse could consistently pwn a player in the holodeck, then yes a keyboard and mouse would be the superior controller. You can have all the buttons, axes, and immersive environments you want, but if it doesn't make you a better player it's crap. Any other measure of the quality of a controller is going to be so subjective as to be meaningless.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/13

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Toonol]

I find that standing improves the experience for some games. Not for a strategy game, like Fire Emblem, but for the action games, it makes them more fun. It also is, I think, a heck of a lot better for you. Nobody reading slashdot has a problem with not sitting enough. Didn't we just get a story a few weeks back about how the simple act of standing burns significantly more calories than sitting?

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[AgentPaper]

Yes, I knew that. However, I have an overriding problem: Labradors.

Any time I sit on the couch, I'm guaranteed that at least one dog will join me there within 3 seconds of the time my butt hits the cushion. Let me tell you, attempting to shoot Space Pirates with 80 lb of highly energetic canine in your face adds a whole new meaning to "Hypermode." Worse yet, the nunchuck "grapple" movement, to a dog, looks like "human threw something - go fetch it!" At least if I'm standing, I can fend them off.

Sometimes their enthusiasm for gaming works to my benefit, though, as on rainy days when I'd rather not take them outside to play. Fire up a two-player game of baseball and they get almost the same amount of exercise they would in a real game of fetch.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[grumbel]

By that definition an aim-bot is by far the best controller you can get.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[vux984]

but if it doesn't make you a better player it's crap

Except that the controller doesn't exist separately from the game, and games are designed around controllers.

Consider how you move, jump, and climb, in an FPS with wasd? Its all *automated*! You run to a ladder and push forward and your avatar slings his gun and climb upwards. The designer removed all sorts of things from having to individually move your feet and arms and coordinate those actions, to having to sling your gun.

The holodeck sim has let the designer put all that stuff back in, and made the experience more immersive. So now if you pit a holodeck player against a keyboard and mouse player, but forced the keyboard and mouse player to individually move hands, feet, fingers, torso, etc, they'd be almost unable to move.

So, the keyboard and mouse is only a "better" controller if the game **compensates for the controller** and automates moving, running, climbing, etc.

But its a pretty arbitrary place to set the automation. And its set there because it creates 'reasonably easy control while allowing for reasonably challenging play', and that's a game design choice. Some games make you push a key to climb, some make you put your gun away, some games have auto-run, some games simulate fatique and have it affect your reticule size etc...

The keyboard/mouse could have even more automation, and do auto-aiming, auto-headshot, and auto-jump, auto-run (oh wait... autorun is already an option on most titles, and auto-aim is pretty common too...) that would make the game even easier to win than it already is; would that make it a 'better control scheme'? Does it make you a "better player"?

Alternatively if the keyboard mouse scheme did LESS compensation then the holodeck guy would suddenly start winning. If the keyboard mouse scheme does NO compensation, and you had to use the keyboard/mouse to articulate all your limbs then the only way you'd beat the holdeck player is if he laughed himself to death watching you try to aim your gun at him.

The point is that the 'controller' isn't just the hardware, its the software that interprets the controls, and the software part is pretty arbitrary. If a console player has dual analog sticks but the game auto-aims while the keyboard/mouse player has to cope with a reticule that floats around trailing the cursor instead of being the cursor... would keyboard/mouse still be superior?

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a well-stated viewpoint that I've had trouble expressing to keyboard-mouse snobs in the past.

The example I usually reference is from the game "Die by the Sword". They made this really interesting system that required the mouse to actually perform the movement of the sword. So, if you just kind of put the sword on the guy's head, it wouldn't cut him. You had to really whack him with it.

However!!! They added the "easy-mode" that let you use pre-executed mappings of particularly good swings. So, in a multi-player game, the player choosing to use the keyboard mappings had more than an *advantage*. It was just a slaughter of the person who actually had to move his own sword.

The easy-mode basically ruined what had been a fascinating innovation. I suspect they feared the advanced control scheme would deter players who might not appreciate what they'd achieved.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[buffer-overflowed]

The wii controls aren't better than the PCs. They're close, but not better. It's about at Quake 1/2 levels of precision, at least with current implementations. The pointer isn't quite as accurate, and the sensor bar/IR detection tech still has a bit of a ways to go. Next-gen, hopefully they do wi-fi/true triangulation, and then it'll be just about perfect.

Using the nunchuck in place of WASD(EQ) is worlds better though. I hope someone releases a peripheral for the PC to simulate it.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[buffer-overflowed]

I would rather have the interface that doesn't have to compensate for it's failings. In the holodeck example, I'd rather be on the holodeck than using a keyboard + mouse. If the design/control scheme has to compensate for a lack of immersion/precision within the controls, it's an inferior interface.

Because to compensate, it has to interfere and take away control. I'd rather have the control than not. I don't want what's stopping me from headshotting enemy A to be the controls/interface, I'd rather it be my own skill. This is why a holodeck would be superior to KB+Mouse and why KB+Mouse is superior to dual analog and why the Wiimote is superior to dual analog.

At present, consoles are inferior in that respect for a number of genres, barring, maybe, the Wii. Auto-aim and various other compensation methods are the Clippys of the gameplay world. They help you make due with a subpar interface.

Re:Wii Controls are already better than PC.

[dolson]

Be careful if you're playing the mansion levels in RE:UC.

What I really wonder

[Moraelin]

You know, some time in 2003 or 2004, I was talking to a gamer coleague about FPS on consoles, and bitching about how much it sucks with twin sticks compared to a good keyboard and mouse. And from there it went into the all time nerd favourite, singlehandedly solving all the world's problems, like Picard. In this case, well, how would _you_ make a console controller that works well in FPS.

So what we came up with was: a trackball. No, really.

Think a standard console controller. Say, a Dual Shock, because everyone knows it. But it's the same principle for an XBox pad, Dreamcast pad, Gamecube pad, whatever, really.

Now think replacing the right stick with a small, thumb-operated trackball.

Think about it. A trackball has much the same advantages a mouse has, because it _is_ a mouse turned upside down. You can turn around 180 degrees at the flick of the thumb, and stop on exact pixel you want to. The problem of joystick vs mouse is really that moving with a joystick can be very fast or very accurate, but not both at the same time. A mouse lets you do both. So does a trackball.

So, really, why doesn't anyone do just that?

Re:What I really wonder

[cowscows]

I see where you're coming from, but to be useful in a FPS, that trackball would have to be insanely sensitive. Your thumb can do an incredibly complex mix of movements, but the total range that it can travel across any one axis is pretty small.

It'd probably be great for a hardcore player that's spent a lot of time with it, but I think it'd be very frustrating and difficult to start with. But still, I'm surprised too that I haven't seen a product like that before. Maybe it does exist somewhere.

Re:What I really wonder

[ucblockhead]

Years ago, I used a trackball extensively instead of a mouse. I liked it...preferred it even. But I had to give it up because it gave me serious RSI troubles in my thumb.

Re:What I really wonder

[hidannik]

There are other solutions - including ones that keep the current twin-stick controller setup.

I've written a fairly extensive article on this at my blog: http://hansonvideogaming.blogspot.com/2006/10/levelling-playing-field-mice-and.html

In short, if the graph of rotational speed vs stick deflection looked like a U instead of the more common V, twin-stick players could get both the precision and speed that a mouse provides.

Anyone who's played a shooter on a laptop using the "eraser" pointer stick and with mouse acceleration on will have an idea what I'm referring to. I played through Half-Life that way and preferred it to a regular mouse.

Hans

Re:What I really wonder

[feepness]

Now think replacing the right stick with a small, thumb-operated trackball. They do sell them you know. I use this. I got it when my shoulder started hurting after playing too many FPS. That isn't a thumb-operated one, but they have those too.

Re:What I really wonder

[aztektum]

i know it isn't exactly what you describe, but i remember something like this in Best Buys in the late 90s I think. not sure if this is the same manufacturer though.

Re:What I really wonder

[Thansal]

heh, I actually do use a trackball exclusively, and it is true that you turn your sensitivity up quite a bit more then with a mouse, however you also have a great deal more fine motor control in your thumb then in your wrist/fingers, thus making a high sensitivity no real problem.

I would LOVE to see a controller like this simply because I I would like a way to ditch my keyboard for gaming.

Re:What I really wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been saying this exact same thing since I first playes an FPS on the ps2. Halo just made me say it louder.

Re:What I really wonder

[Alzheimers]

As a long time user of a larger trackball, I actually hate the tiny marble-style thumb trackballs that seem to be prevalent in today's models. I'd much prefer a ball that can be used with the pointer/middle finger, leaving the thumb and pinky to do the majority of the button-mashing.

Maybe that's why I'm much happier with the Wiimote than I am the Dualshock or the Xbox360 controllers. I've never gotten comfortable with the thumb-controls on the newer controllers -- I always used my pointers for the D-Pad layouts of consoles past (the Master System and the NEs MAXX controllers tied for most comfortable, with honorable mention to a softer clone of the original 2600 joystick)

Re:What I really wonder

[hidannik]

I think this is what you're thinking of:

http://www.bodielobus.com/

Hans

Re:What I really wonder

[Amphetam1ne]

After playing Metroid on the DS using the thumb-nubbin on the touch screen for aim, I'd come to a similar conclusion. It did really shock me that a portable fps could actually have that level of fast and accurate control.

I'd say that a small-ish glidepad operated with the thumb would be the best replacement for the right stick on a gamepad. Double tap to jump of course.

Re:What I really wonder

[LunarCrisis]

Except that that isn't a trackball, in that it doesn't actually move. It's more like a joystick in that it senses forces, and not positions.

Re:What I really wonder

[brkello]

Sorry, but a track ball for your thumb isn't going to be the same as a mouse. The sensitivity would either be too high to prevent fine tune aiming or too low and make it very difficult to turn quickly.

Re:What I really wonder

[CastrTroy]

I switched to using a trackball instead of a mouse because I didn't like keeping my desk clear of clutter. I actually got good enough so that I could beat most of my mouse-wielding friends in most FPS games. The advantages of the trackball are that you never run out of desk space, IE, you don't have to reposition it all the time, and also that you can hold it perfectly still while shooting, by removing your fingers (or thumb depending on the model), from the ball. Once I got used to it I found that there was a whole lot more I could do with a trackball than with a mouse.

Re:What I really wonder

[Moraelin]

It takes some getting used to, and you _can_ get pretty good with it. But you'll notice that I didn't even make that claim in the original message. Even if you never get as good as with a keyboard and mouse, the important part is: you'll _very_ soon be better than with a gamepad :)

Re:What I really wonder

[The Evil Couch]

I've been using trackballs for gaming since Doom on a 386. I've used about a dozen different models of them. Thumb trackball suck for gaming. Thumbs simply aren't dexterous enough to stop on a pixel. They're certainly not better than a traditional mouse. There are certain angles of movement with your thumb where you cannot move in a smooth arc, simply because of the way the digit is constructed.

However, center-mounted trackballs involve the pointer and middle fingers. These are your two most precise digits. Trackballs designed in that fashion are some of the most comfortable and precise pointing devices out on the market. In case anyone is wondering, my trackball of choice has been the Microsoft Trackball Explorer for the past few years. It has a nice, large optical trackball, ergonomically designed (for right-handed users. Lefties are screwed), 5 buttons (including the scroll wheel) and has pretty decent looks. I'll eventually break the ones I have and go in search of something better, but until then, I can't see myself switching over to anything else.

Re:What I really wonder

[Durinthal]

As a long time user of a larger trackball, I actually hate the tiny marble-style thumb trackballs that seem to be prevalent in today's models. I'd much prefer a ball that can be used with the pointer/middle finger, leaving the thumb and pinky to do the majority of the button-mashing.
There's no real equivalent to it for consoles (unless you want to hook it up directly to a PS3), but have you considered the Marble Mouse? I use my index and middle fingers to control the trackball and my thumb/ring finger for buttons. The only issue I've ever had with it is the lack of a scroll wheel.

I actually prefer it in FPS games to a normal mouse, because I can make much smaller movements and get the same results. I'm actually halfway decent with the hitscan and one-hit-one-kill types of weapons too, so it can't be that bad.

Re:What I really wonder

[yoyhed]

... played a shooter on a laptop using the "eraser" pointer stick ... I played through Half-Life that way and preferred it to a regular mouse.

Ewwww! GROSS! *throws up*

Re:What I really wonder

[yoyhed]

Haha, "Adding a true DIGITAL interface through a powerful serial port"... Yes, the POWER of SERIAL!!!!!111!!1!

Re:What I really wonder

[obeythefist]

The trackball mechanically might seem like the mouse upside down, but that's not exactly right, and the key difference is why we use the mouse instead of analog sticks or trackballs today.

The mouse won the interface battle because it's got context, it's constantly got a point of reference that is easy to understand - the position of the mouse on the table. The mouse interface is not just that blocking thing with buttons on it and the glowing eye underneath. The interface is the mouse and the surface. As a human being, it's intuitive to move the mouse up a little, or a lot, depending on how far on the screen you need the pointer to move. Overshoot? Correcting is also very easy because you move the mouse back a small distance to achieve it, and it's practically unconscious, because humans are good at moving things around on flat surfaces.

Trackballs and analog sticks don't have that kind of context. Rolling a trackball through 35 degrees is much harder to intuit than sliding the mouse back down 5cms.

The Wiimote, because it is a pointer, almost has the same level of context, but it's still not as good.

Wuh?

[DJCouchyCouch]

"It's often off by an inch or more on smaller tv's. " What the hell? You point the wiimote at the (size-fixed) sensor bar, not at the TV. Doesn't matter what size TV you have.

Re:Wuh?

[rkanodia]

Ignore 'off by an inch' comments. These are people trying to sight down the 'barrel' of the wiimote as though it were a light gun.

Why does the gaming press hate the mouse?

[Alexpkeaton1010]

It seems every time a console FPS does a good job on the controls the gaming press immediately suggests how we are one more step closer to replacing the mouse. Why? The mouse is already the perfect FPS controller, can these people not figure out how to use it?

Re:Why does the gaming press hate the mouse?

[edwdig]

The mouse part is fine, only reasonable if you're playing at a desk. And the keyboard part sucks.

Re:Why does the gaming press hate the mouse?

[MLS100]

What is wrong with the keyboard? You have quick access to about 26 keys with one hand alone, and they are in a position you are used to. You have meta keys for alternate functions (shift, alt, etc) which expand the number of unique functions to more than 60. Any controller that complex that isn't modeled after a keyboard will be a tremendous failure.

Re:Why does the gaming press hate the mouse?

[edwdig]

Two issues:

1) A keyboard is strictly digital buttons. It's no where near as precise as an analog stick for movement.

2) Ease of access. You have plenty of keys, but a giant grid of keys isn't nearly as easy to use as something you wrap your hand around that has buttons placed so that they can be easily reached without confusion. Keyboard keys require more force and press down further than controller buttons, making them not as fast to hit. When you're trying to use 26 keys with one hand, it's easy for your hand to get lost on the keyboard, requiring you to either look down or take the time to reorient yourself.

The only advantage a keyboard provides is that it has a lot of buttons, which just isn't necessary for the vast majority of games.

I'm a believer...

[TheGreatGraySkwid]

I've played several FPS games using the dual-analog scheme consoles have relied on to this point, and it always destroyed the immersive effect that is the FPS game's chief advantage. No matter how good you get with the sticks, the resultant motions on-screen are always jerky and mechanical. Robotic. It's a grating difference from the much more organic WASD + mouse scheme.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is the closest to that organic movement I've experienced. It's still not perfect; the aim is a smidge twitchy, and it would be nice to be able to spin a bit more quickly. Those faults aside, it's deeply intuitive. No, it's not light-gun aiming, but neither is any other successful FPS scheme (rail shooters are the only games I've seen with light-gun aiming), so I don't know why anyone who's an FPS fan would complain about that. As I said, the slight jumpiness of the aiming means sniping isn't really do-able, but relative aiming is what anyone who has used a mouse control system is used to. Just hold the Wiimote at your side, where you're not tempted to look down the barrel, and let your wrist do the work...you'll adapt to it in an instant.

And yes, using the motion control for the grapple and combination locks and the like is *very* satisfying. Really, I highly recommend any FPS gamers out there to give this game a look. I think you'll like what you see.

conversation wheel?

[Hatta]

Forgive me for asking, but what's this great new dialog system in Mass Effect all about? We've been simulating dialog with NPCs for something like 25 years now, what's so new and special about Mass Effect? I haven't played a demo or anything so I really don't know. It's just hard for me to imagine that they could improve upon the system in, say, Monkey Island.

Re:conversation wheel?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect#Dialog

Re:conversation wheel?

[Hatta]

Hmm, that's unfortunate. What's so great about having less precision? And they present it like somehow reading dialog is a bad thing. IMO, the more dialog the better. And since I can read faster than I can listen, I'd rather have it all printed anyway. I was all excited about Bioware repopularizing adventure games with KOTOR, but Mass Effect looks like it's heading in the wrong direction.

Re:conversation wheel?

[Fallingcow]

The PC RPG The Witcher (freaking great, go buy it now!) does basically the same thing. They shorten the (sometimes very long) dialog options so they fit better (no scrolling). You can have captions if you want, and a left-click skips whatever line is currently being spoken, so you can do the reading thing too.

Also, I'm almost certain I've played other games that just give you the gist of what will be spoken for a given dialog option. This is hardly an innovation.

Re:conversation wheel?

[NeutronCowboy]

It's not so much less precision, as it is easier to figure out which option you want. When dealing with an NPC, you essentially have the following options displayed:
"Let's talk this over."
"Can we do something else?"
"Shoot to kill."

Very straight forward. One's the nice option, once the intermediate option and the last is the knee-deep-in-the-dead option. Considering that dialog is often quite long, this is a far better option than displaying the entire text - not to mention that the latter option requires you to read the same text twice.

Finally, there is an option for subtext, with the ability to cut any dialog piece short. It's a very slick dialog system, though I don't know why people call it revolutionary. It's dialog selection based on short-hand, rather than the full response. Not to mention that your choice rarely influences the direction of the conversation.

Re:conversation wheel?

[Jonathan_S]

Hmm, that's unfortunate. What's so great about having less precision? And they present it like somehow reading dialog is a bad thing. IMO, the more dialog the better. And since I can read faster than I can listen, I'd rather have it all printed anyway

I'm not sure you really have less precision. How many dialog trees offer more than 6 options anyway?

And I can see your point about reading faster than listening, that's the case for me as well. On the other hand, for selecting my side of the dialog it does break the flow to read 4 to 6 full sentence (or multi-sentence) choices that are totally different from one another. I can see where it could flow faster to just pick in essence from: I agree, I disagree, I'm skeptical, etc. Once you do that you still get the your full sentence expressed, you simple don't see the full text of all the unchosen options.
The more interesting bits of the dialog are the NPC responses, since they include new information, and those are still fully intact (although spoken, which does slow down delivery).

And from the little I've seen watching my friends play Mass Effect, there is still plenty of pure written material outside the dialog mechanism.

Re:conversation wheel?

[Chris Burke]

I can see where it could flow faster to just pick in essence from: I agree, I disagree, I'm skeptical, etc. Once you do that you still get the your full sentence expressed, you simple don't see the full text of all the unchosen options.

The only problem with this system is when the actual response ends up saying more than you intended, which you would have known if it was fully spelled out. E.g. 'agree' turns into "I agree with Character X, and further more think Character Y is a blithering idiot for disagreeing. I hope you die in a fire, Character Y". Or 'I'm skeptical' becomes "I'm not sure I buy that, Character X, but I might be able to be -- you know -- persuaded... if you catch my drift... And my drift is sodomy."

But then again maybe I'm just playing the wrong games.

Re:I'm a believer...

[Gravatron]

Actualy, early Wii FPS games aimed very much like your average rail shooter. Basically, to turn you had to bring your redicle to the edge of the screen's bound box. Metriod still has to do that, they just made that box really, really small.

Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravity

[lpangelrob]

Super Mario Galaxy might be one of the few games I play again from start to finish. :-D

Video games have played with gravity in the past, but applying the concept of planetary gravity (with slightly non-realistic physics, but when you're orbiting around an ice cream cone, does it really matter?) to a 3-D platformer was the best idea I've ever played.

At some point I'm going to find the smallest, most isolated planet I can find and try to see how many times I can orbit it with a long jump.

That they did this without making me nauseous also deserves some sort of award. I seriously wonder how they did it.

EVE

[Cornflake917]

Honestly, how in the hell can a graphics upgrade be innovative? I can think of at least a couple more innovative things in EVE, and I think the game is a total bore.

I'm sure other companies have thought of upgrading their MMO's graphics engine. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I'm sure other MMO's have at least improved some part of their graphics. I think this top 10 list will find it's way in to my top 10 list of "Most Poorly Thought-out Top 10 Lists of 2007."

Re:EVE

[vux984]

Actually Everquest has upgraded their graphics engine a few times now. They've revamped all the Player models at least once. And they've even gone back and revamped several old zones to USE the new features of the new engine(s).

And it goes without saying that the new zones use the new features.

Here's a shot from 2001..
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/everquest/eq/screens/eq_35.jpg

And one today...
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/other/pc/eq/screens/eq57.jpg

Blurry green texture vs tufts of grass, flat ground with vertex joins clearly defined vs smooth rolling terrain. Trees with branches on two planes vs much more complicated geometry for trees. Much more shading/shadow in the 2nd version... etc, etc...

You'll also note that the resolution of the two pictures is quite different. Everquest orginally only ran in 800x600...

Re:EVE

[SlayerDave]

Honestly, how in the hell can a graphics upgrade be innovative?

Because, in addition to updating the rendering engine, they also re-modeled and re-textured nearly every object in the game, including every spaceship, starbase (exterior & interior), and stargate. That's almost everything in the game that a player would care about. I don't know of any other MMO that has attempted anything that ambitious.

Re:EVE

[brkello]

It's a space game...it isn't that hard. There aren't that many ship/starbase models. There are like 5 interiors to starbases that they use over and over again. There are like four types of stargates. It is fine if you like the changes. But to call it innovative...even ambitious, is laughable.

Re:EVE

[jportnow]

The difference was that this was a total engine rewrite, something which EQ has never done.

Re:EVE

[xhrit]

from tfa : "7. Hook it to my Veins - Call of Duty 4; Want your MMO fix in tasty bite size morsels? Then Call of Duty 4 is the game for you. In Call of Duty 4 you get the satisfaction of a good grind with a sense of accomplishment in 15 minute intervals. The first developer who can do this with Co-Op game play will walk away with a lot of cash..."

Splash damage was the first developer to do this, about 5 years ago with the first enemy territory. co-op team multiplayer fps with rpg elements. a lot of cash? not quite. they gave it away for free.

Quake Wars ftw.

Re:Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravi

[deathtopaulw]

yeah uh, in case you didn't know, mario galaxy is just an expanded version of a couple of levels from sonic adventure 2
the only good levels in the game really, but it's been done correctly before

Re:I'm a believer...

[Bryansix]

I've played several FPS games using the dual-analog scheme consoles have relied on to this point, and it always destroyed the immersive effect that is the FPS game's chief advantage. No matter how good you get with the sticks, the resultant motions on-screen are always jerky and mechanical. Robotic. It's a grating difference from the much more organic WASD + mouse scheme.

The Keyboard and Mouse is better then the dual analog control sticks. However dual analog is not jerky and mechanical. It is too slow for sure. I think you just haven't practiced enough for it to become natural. It took me a month just to catch on to Mouse + Keyboard. You should give yourself that much time at least for dual analog. I did and now it's completely natural.

what about making the Wacom Cintiq work?

[BlueshiftVFX]

I have been dreaming of getting perfect head shots while using a tablet for years, but the games don't understand the input of a tablet and you typically end up lookng at the sky spinning in circles or looking at your feet doing the same. Then Wacom came out with the Cintiq http://www.wacom.com/pendisplays/index.cfm but to my knowledge they don't work either. This would be similar to Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS but you could be doing it with your other hand on the keyboard.

Re:what about making the Wacom Cintiq work?

[rishistar]

Then Wacom came out with the Cintiq http://www.wacom.com/pendisplays/index.cfm but to my knowledge they don't work either.

I read that without a d in the middle word of that URL and then started thinking that penis play would be a pretty neat game control mechanism, but discriminating against the girl gamer.

Whoa

[Moraelin]

Whoa. Yep, that's a variant of exactly what I had in mind. Yep, I'd buy one of those if it were supported by console FPSs.

Re:Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravi

[ShakaUVM]

>>That they did this without making me nauseous also deserves some sort of award. I seriously wonder how they did it.

Really? I've never gotten nauseous from any (non-VR) game before, not even from some of the weird infinite loops I'd fall into in Portal, but I actually feel sick to my stomach after playing Super Mario Galaxy.

Re:Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravi

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"That they did this without making me nauseous also deserves some sort of award. I seriously wonder how they did it."

They removed some of the flexibility with the camera that Mario 64 enjoyed. With the camera more or less fixed, you didn't have to do a lot of mental compensation to figure out which direction to go.

(At least that's my humble observation...)

(Enter asinine subject you think is witty here.)

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> down the line I could see the Wii (or a console with Wii like controls) becoming the platform
> of choice for hardcore FPSers, even over the PC.

What part of "turn off head bobbing, set up a Thresh layout with one finger/thumb for each of the four directions, and grab the mouse with the other hand" doesn't he understand?

"Force feedback" on joysticks is a nice "wow factor", for that matter, but to even remotely compete with a "mouser", you have to turn it off.

Oh, sure, there's some mild competition from no-mouse keyboarders who have the turn rate and tilt set to astronomical, but that's a tough mistress to master just to come close.

Nah, "hardcore" = PvP = as few gimmicks as possible or you're on the ashheap. Waving a wand around just so you can point and shoot, well, hell, I'd bet a properly configured Dance Dance Revolution pad could outdo it.

Seriously.

Re:Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravi

[oneplus999]

i had the same idea, but only found 1 decent place for it: go to the 'Deep Dark Galaxy' in the garden. in the middle of the starting beach there is a cannon that shoots you to a planet with a firepower flower. instead of shooting there, aim at the green planet on the right. there is a screw that you unspin, and the planet will begin to shrink. if you do a few long jumps, eventually the planet will shrink enough that it sends you into orbit! that is until the planet disappears, and there is no more gravity - then you get sucked over to the brown planet that you were supposed to go to in the first place.

Re:(Enter asinine subject you think is witty here.

[Anonymous Coward]

...or the Star Wars Playset plugin (yes, such a thing exists) for that matter.

Re:Super Mario Galaxy - Individual planetary gravi

[Anonymous Coward]

The best long jumping that I could find was on the shrinking platforms that form a sphere around a black hole while using Luigi. Get rid of all the platforms and then long jump off the last one.

#5 - EvE Online?

[ameoba]

What's this about Eve Online doing an engine upgrade being an innovation? Dark Ages of Camelot & Ultima Online have done it already. As for giving hope that a game can go on for decades, Everquest has been going for 8 years and just released an expansion last month.

Re:Wii Sensor Bar tips.

[trdrstv]

Thanks for the advice. The coffee table is a possibility since it has a shiny finish (it's not glass or mirrored though).

Make sure where ever you have the sensor bar it is at the very edge of whatever it sits. Set it flush with the face of the TV (if on top) or the front of the entertainment center (if on bottom). I had instances where the sensor bar would be obscured by the angle of the entertainment center (If I rested the controller in my lap), and the pointer went crazy until I brought the Wiimote higher so it could get a clean view of it.

Any infrared light source near the TV (or IRsensor on the Wiimote) could be disruptive. Lamps, Candles, and especially the Sun. The WiiMote uses the the sensor bar to triangulate position based on 2 steady points (provided by the sensor bar). If multiple sources are competing with the signal then it will confuse the Wiimote causing jitter. The Sun is the worse as it can blanket the Wiimote sensor with IR light making it impossible to detect the 2 points of the sensor bar among all the noise. So as an experiment you may want to close the curtains, blow out the candles, and turn off any lamps that may be near the TV to see if they are adding interference.

Another issue is distance, if you have a rectangular living room you may have issues with the Nintendo Stock sensor bar after 10 feet or so. (or if you are too close IE: less than 3 feet from it will cause issues)

I hope that helps.

Re:Why is there no -1 Wrong Moderation....

[trdrstv]

There's no way the Wii mote compares to a mouse and keyboard for shooters.

The only reason it's usable at all in Metroid Prime 3 is because the Z button auto-locks your view onto the target.

If it wasn't for that feature, the controls would be hopeless.

Yes, It has that option if the thought of Shooters is too intimidating to you. This is on par with some of the "Auto-aiming" tricks used in other console and PC games to simplify it for a novice.

There IS a control option called "Advanced" that doesn't auto lock the reticle on enemies, but locks your camera, so you can "Free Aim, and Shoot your enemies with precision at a distance". It is very precise and works well. I suspect that those who are praising the control scheme played it this way.

Re:(Enter asinine subject you think is witty here.

[Toonol]

Look up the definition of "seriously." It may help you stop from contradicting yourself again in the future.

Innovation

[DaveCBio]

People always prattle on about innovation, but in my world everything takes a back seat to fun. I don't care how "ground breaking" a game is, the big question is whether or not it's fun. So, if you want to talk about changing gaming and doing something new and different go for it, but just remember, it's still a game.

Re:Innovation

[Anonymous Coward]

Innovation is a pretty big part of fun, unless you think "fun" means playing the same exact game over and over and over.

Re:Innovation

[Anonymous Coward]

Exact same game over and over? You mean like the mario series?

Unimpressed

[metroid composite]

I'm not sure if it was a bad list or a bad year, but I wasn't really impressed with the innovations. Puzzle Quest and Portal (#1 and #2) were great, yes, but #10-#3, not so much. Graphical updates in MMOs have been done before. Line Rider isn't exactly far from Kriby's Canvas Curse for DS. I was excited about the conversation trees when they were demoed in Mass Effect, showed them to a friend, and was told "oh yeah, Bioware usually does that kind of stuff with conversations" (I haven't played most Bioware games, but he's a fan so I assume he's right).

Actually, I'm leaning towards bad list, because Super Mario Galaxy feels like it should be mentioned. The individual gravity has been done slightly before, but usually just with a single spherical world, not several you can jump between. The star bits I thought were brilliant--most people complain about collecting that you have to run all the way across the world and it's just a time-waster, whereas you could collect these without wasting any time at all (if you wanted). You also keep them even if you die, as long as you beat the level, which means that if a level is killing you over and over, then you get a massive payout for finally beating it. This in turn increases the "I'm going to finish this level before I stop" compulsion even more.

Re:Unimpressed

[grumbel]

### Bioware usually does that kind of stuff with conversations

I haven't played Mass Effect, but I did play KOTOR and Jade Empire and the dialog system in Mass Effect looks quite a bit different. For one thing KOTOR and Jade Empire are awfully black&white, you can do good thing and bad things, but basically never anything in the gray area, which makes all the dialogs feel very forced and unrealistic. Also your hero never talks in either game, other then indirectly through your dialog choices, which isn't exactly a good thing for cinematic feel. From what I have heard Mass Effect has far more gray-area choices and your choices are topic/thought based, instead of being exactly what comes out of your heroes mouth, also your hero talks in the game, making the dialog feel much more alive.

All that said, its still nothing really new. It might be new for Bioware game, but realtime dialog was already done in Fahrenheit/IndigoProphecy some years ago (in general one of the innovativest games I have played in a long while), Dreamfall also had something similar, but without the realtime component. And looking back at older adventures one will also find quite a few that aren't based on strict dialog trees.

### but usually just with a single spherical world, not several you can jump between.

Psychonauts had tons of individual gravity and some MegaMan games had inverse gravity in some areas. But I haven't played SMG, so I can't really comment on it.

Overall innovation these days seems to be more a thing of "hasn't been done that often", "hasn't been done in a while", instead of a "has never been done before". But then with 30+ years of gaming, that is to be expected. Still a little sad that most games just copy last years block buster instead of copying a bit more creatively from other games in video game history.

Re:I'm a believer...

[grumbel]

### the resultant motions on-screen are always jerky and mechanical. Robotic

Kind of like real soldiers, so I don't consider that a loss. Almost all FPS are utterly ridiculous in modeling a human being. They model a cylinder with a bit of wobble and a gun, thats it. No legs or stuff that actually matters a lot in actual movement. What WASD+mouse has going for it is that it doesn't have restrictions, you can turn as fast as you want, you are not limited by the game, only by your mouse skills. Which might be interesting for eSports, but for immersion I find it quite awful, since well, reality simply doesn't work that way and even SuperMario doesn't allow you to turn around on the stop, yet most FPS do.

Re:I'm a believer...

[Rowan_u]

Sorry to be a naysayer, but you're completely wrong here. I've played and loved console and PC FPS games from Quake and Goldeneye to Crysis and Halo 3. The game that finally swapped me was Bioshock. Played it first on the 360, then over to the PC. It's not the console games that are twitchy, it's that damn WASD walking on the pc. In Bioshock on the pc, you are ether standing still or running. You'll literally miss half the game if you play it on the PC, with so many environments that must be strolled through to be enjoyed. Same thing with the aiming, sure you're going to be less accurate on a stick. Much less accurate actually. However, try and do a smooth pan using a mouse . . . impossible. Herky Jerky award goes to the pc again. Both reasons why I went out and bought a 360 wireless adapter for my PC to enjoy the superior graphics of a pc (projected up onto a ten foot wide 720p screen) combined with the superior controls . . . of a console.

Written much more about this below on my blog.
http://www.jakepcw.com/muyuubyou/?p=578

Solar Jetman

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so it's not Mario and not as good, but Solar Jetman did that with gravity a long time ago.

Granted, it mostly got higher at higher levels, but they DID have individual planetary gravity. Was a hard game, but fun.

Killing off single player is a good thing?

[Bones3D_mac]

I don't understand the logic here. Because a game lacks a feature, it suddenly becomes "better"?

Yes, this generation of game consoles are the first to really take advantage of online connectivity and do it well, but forcing gamers to go online just to even play your game isn't exactly going to sell games by itself. Look what happened to "Shadowrun" after gamers learned it was multiplayer only... it flopped.

Aside from that, did this author completely overlook the MMORPG genre? This is about the only game format that will survive being online only for extended periods of time, because that is the what the user is expecting from the start. But when you start applying this concept randomly to games that don't even need to be social events, you're effectively telling the user that your game has a limited lifespan based on however long it takes other players to get bored with it and move on. And, once you kill off the game server, the game itself ceases to have any value, since it can no longer be played.

Not all of us want to be (or can be) constantly online when we pop in a game, so a single player mode is vital for a lot of us. If I wanted my games constantly tied to an external server, I'd just go buy a Phantom.

Re:Killing off single player is a good thing?

[Bones3D_mac]

On a side note, there is one other reason a company might choose to go online only with a game...

When users buy a next-generation game title, they expect not only better graphics, but better gameplay with more sophisticated enemies/allies to play with. When filling these characters' shoes with a human player isn't possible, game companies have to invest a lot of extra time and money into developing far more flexible AIs that can intelligently think for themselves on the fly, and do so with varying levels of difficulty for the user's enjoyment. Games that are unable to do this well often end up failing.

Developers who elect to go online only may just be too cheap, or too lazy, to create such AI systems for their games... or, perhaps they're trying to beat a deadline while trying to remove the possibility of a poorly developed AI system from rendering several months of work into a complete waste of time.

Re:Killing off single player is a good thing?

[ShadowsHawk]

This one of the primary reasons why I still love Quake 3 tournament. The AI bots are pretty challenging. More so than any current FPS.

Re:Killing off single player is a good thing?

[xhrit]

I beg to differ - the bots in Quake Wars are quite excellent. If you like q3a I would recommend checking out qw. At its lowest, most base level, qw is like q3a with xp, vehicles, and orbital bombardments.

Re:Killing off single player is a good thing?

[ShadowsHawk]

Thanks. I'm not sure that it's worth $50, but I'll take look at it.

Re:Killing off single player is a good thing?

[xhrit]

you can get it for $25 on amazon.

Perpetual development

[shish]

Imagine having thirty years development time. Imagine what a world could be like after a quarter century of additional content and art. Imagine a living world filled not only with myth cycles and lore but history! For letting us dream EvE earns its place at number five. Dream? Nethack :P

Blah blah FPS blah

[timftbf]

Contrary to popular wisdom, there are good, fun games that aren't FPS. Personally, I don't find any FPSes fun, but I'm prepare to accept they're quite popular. It just winds me up that the genre has to be the be-all and end-all of gaming - witness the endless "consoles suck because you don't have keyboard + mouse".

Metroid Prime, at least in its original incarnation (I've recently (finally) finished the first, but not played 2 or 3) isn't an FPS in any meaningful sense. It's a first-person explore / puzzle-solve / platformer, that sometimes has you shoot things. Calling it an FPS is like calling a 2D Mario a shoot-em-up because of the fire flowers. Good game, but too many buttons at the same time needed in places.

Re:Wii Sensor Bar tips.

[TheNinjaroach]

I actually get a better response from my Wii if I pull the sensor bar a bit over the top edge of my TV screen. Further out than flush seemed to make a big difference in my living room. I still can't reliably use the thing from across the room where I would like.

I've been waiting for a good 3rd party sensor bar that might actually glow a bit brighter. You mention the "Nintendo Stock sensor bar" and imply there are better sensor bars out there. Have you had any success extending the practical range of your Wii with a better sensor bar? Do you have any brands you would suggest?

Christmas lights

[PlatyPaul]

One more important thing: Christmas (or other holiday) lights.

You probably wouldn't think much about it, but those little bulbs are just about the same size (and IR intensity) of the sensor bar's IR LEDs. So, for the holidays, you'll need to be careful to switch off the tree/decorations before you load up a game. In our house, we just put the tree on a switch, as Mario Galaxy is getting serious playtime.

Happy Holidays!

Re:Wii Sensor Bar tips.

[trdrstv]

I actually get a better response from my Wii if I pull the sensor bar a bit over the top edge of my TV screen. Further out than flush seemed to make a big difference in my living room. I still can't reliably use the thing from across the room where I would like.

I've been waiting for a good 3rd party sensor bar that might actually glow a bit brighter. You mention the "Nintendo Stock sensor bar" and imply there are better sensor bars out there. Have you had any success extending the practical range of your Wii with a better sensor bar? Do you have any brands you would suggest?

My living room isn't long enough for it to be an issue (it's only 15 feet long total), but I did end up getting one of these when I bought a projector. The cable for the WiiSensor bar is rediculously long (nearly 12 feet) for Entertainment center set ups where the Wii is near the TV, but not nearly long enough when they are across the room from eachother. This was one of the few that didn't run exclusively on Battery power, and has an AC adapter. The ability to plug it in and never think twice about it was important to me. The site claims it's good up to 30 feet, (and they may be right) but I never had to test the distance portion due to my setup so I can't vouch for it.

What I can vouch for is it's ability to work exactly like the WiiSensor bar, and I am able to get good and smooth movement from the remote whenever I use it. If you have a projector setup, I highly recommend it.

Thank You !

[TheNinjaroach]

I feel almost certain that this will do the trick! Thanks for your feedback, every replacement bar I have seen so far plugs into the Wii itself -- which I assume will be no more powerful than the stock sensor.

This sensor with its AC adapter should be able to provide a brighter IR signal for better long-distance remote control. I've got it on order, thanks again!

Re:I'm a believer...

[ShadowsHawk]

The 'herky jerky' isn't in the mouse, it's your hand. I played through Bioshock on the PC and strolled around marveling at the richness of the environments. Each game experience is what you make of it. Also, my midrange PC is more than capable of 720P. Perhaps you're simply letting your bias show as I am?

Re:Wii Sensor Bar tips.

[Chris Burke]

Any infrared light source near the TV (or IRsensor on the Wiimote) could be disruptive. Lamps, Candles, and especially the Sun. The WiiMote uses the the sensor bar to triangulate position based on 2 steady points (provided by the sensor bar). If multiple sources are competing with the signal then it will confuse the Wiimote causing jitter. The Sun is the worse as it can blanket the Wiimote sensor with IR light making it impossible to detect the 2 points of the sensor bar among all the noise. So as an experiment you may want to close the curtains, blow out the candles, and turn off any lamps that may be near the TV to see if they are adding interference.

There's a helpful tool somewhere in the Wii configuration menus that makes debugging this kind of problem easy. I honestly can't remember what it's called or where it lives... But what it does is show you what the IR Sensor is seeing and what it thinks its reference points are. It will show a grey box with a white dot on it everywhere the software is seeing an IR signal. There should be exactly 2, for the two points on the sensor bar, and if there are more or less then the pointing is going to be screwed up.

This is how I discovered that having the blinds on the window behind the entertainment center half open during the daytime was being interpreted by the Wiimote as about 7 different IR sources. Heh.

Puzzle Quest?

[mcvos]

Isn't Puzzle Quest simply the fantasy version of Puzzle Pirates? That was my impression anyway. I haven't played Puzzle Quest, and I don't doubt it's brilliant, but is it really that innovative compared to Puzzle Pirates?

Portal

[Databass]

The article describes Portal's mechanic as something never before seen. But Mario was jumping down warp pipes 20 years ago, and Pac * Man has a warp on one side that comes out on the other.

Portal is very original, sure, but the concept of warping around isn't completely inprecedented, in fact it's been pretty common in video games!

Re:Portal

[xhrit]

Dynamic portals (user created portals with viewable endpoints) are innovative. They were also first seen in the 1997 demo ov Prey. Portal is very original in it's copying a 10 year old innovation, sure.

Mass Effect just added cutscenes to Ultima 7's aggressive/neutral/defensive dialog system.

COD4, well. The author describes what a developer needs to do to make a game better then COD4. Quake Wars has all those features, and it was out before COD4.

Re:Portal

[Eli Gottlieb]

The innovation was that Portal put the starting and ending points of the warp in control of the player, allowing any non-metal surface to have a portal placed on it.

Re:I'm a believer...

[Rowan_u]

I was playing on a midrange pc the second time through, with a 360 controller.

Wii not aimed at FPS-type gamers...

[7Prime]

I've played Metroid Prime: Corruption, I've played Bioshock, I've played Gears of War, and all around the same period of time. As for control, there's no question in my mind that Wiimote + Chuck is better than double-analog. But will the FPS community be able to put aside their prejudices against Nintendo and roll with the flow? It's going to be an uphill battle, I think.

Nintendo has always positioned itself in the market as the "anti-PC", with a lot of attention to infrastructure (in marketing, distrobution, security, and game design requirements), commonly targetting casual gamers, and being the last to jump on online bandwagon. They also take the philosophy that "a game is what the creators want it to be" and have never openned up their software to modding or alterations (and I personally agree with their choice on this).

For these reasons, PC gamers, of which a large percentage of FPS gamers stem from, have always avoided Nintendo, feeling a bit squeemish about the institutionalism of it all. Even if the Wiimote becomes thought-of as a great FPS control device, even rivaling that of the keyboard/mouse, it will likely simply put PC and FPS gamers on the defensive.

While the XBox, and (though less so) PS3 have been courting PC and FPS gamers with online support, modding, and freer architecture (and the pitfalls that come with those things), Nintendo has always put their design philosophy first, which tends to conflict with PC gaming.

No matter how good the Wii becomes at FPS-style gaming, it will probably never win over the PC crowd. All the Mac users and long time console gamers love them precisely because of their elegant design infrastructure, but PC gamers typically tend to want LESS infrastructure.

Re: Most Welcome.

[trdrstv]

I feel almost certain that this will do the trick! Thanks for your feedback, every replacement bar I have seen so far plugs into the Wii itself -- which I assume will be no more powerful than the stock sensor.

This sensor with its AC adapter should be able to provide a brighter IR signal for better long-distance remote control. I've got it on order, thanks again!

No Problem. I hope it works out for you.