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KDE's Version Timing Drops It In Ubuntu Support Priority
News.com is reporting that the next version of Ubuntu will see KDE unsupported, but only for the time being. Because of the dramatic changeover from KDE 3.5 to 4.0, Ubuntu sponsor Canonical is unwilling to initially support the popular Linux GUI. Gnome will still be supported, and the company expects to return support to kubuntu soon. "Developer interest is focused on KDE 4.0, but it's not mature enough yet to use in the next KDE-based variation of Ubuntu, called Kubuntu, Scott James Remnant, leader of the Ubuntu Desktop team, said in an explanation to a Kubuntu mailing list. But most Kubuntu developers adding features "upstream" of today's products are focused on KDE 4.0, meaning that it's risky to release a long-term support version based on 3.5."
The next version of Kubuntu/Ubuntu would have been an LTS, which means that it would be aimed at those who expected a long life out of an operating system, such as enterprise users.
KDE 4.0, in its current, and rather buggy state, does not fit the bill.
Previously kubuntu release have been synchronous with the ubuntu releases, this decision breaks that pattern which is why it is news. It looks as if ubuntu and kubuntu may actually diverge enough to become separate distributions.
ubuntu wants to kick a release out the door every 6 months, i think it would be wise to release once a year and no more frequent than that, the rest of the Linux distros & community works at a slower pace than ubuntu wants to run at...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
my fancy blue Kubuntu splash screen isn't going to work any more.
... adding features "upstream" of today's products are focused on KDE 4.0, meaning that it's risky to release a long-term support version based on 3.5. Someone's not been paying attention to the point of LTS - the point is that since there is no addition of major features, there's less risk involved, making it a better choice for those seeking stability. Zonk's next accepted feature: FreeBSD - too many versions?News.com reports that only damned fools would go for FreeBSD 5.5 - where no major features have been added for years. Server maintainers should get with the program and start download FreeBSD 8 alphas - it has something called superpages and network stack virtualization, and while none of us know what that means, the names are impressive.
The Gutsy version of Kubuntu broke a _lot_ of things on my powerbook. Up until this release I was really happy with Linux on it, rating it well above OS X for geeks. Right now I'm seriously considering reverting back to Feisty.
So, with that in mind, it's actually nice to see them declare that something won't be working _before_ I waste time trying to upgrade to it. I can then make an informed decision about what to do, instead of using a half assed release that would disappoint me. Not meeting expectations is about the worst thing you can do to your credibility.
Beep beep.
Any distro must make a choice of what to include or what not to include.
If it's critical software such as the kernel or compiler, the distro release is reasonably delayed. If it's not critical such as mtools, there's no need to wait.
With a desktop environment, it's somewhere in-between. If it is something most users depend on, then one would expect a reasonable delay. Obviously, maintainers of this distro don't believe that KDE users are in the majority and the distro can adhere to its release schedule and provide solid KDE4 support later. Good decision; not a problem.
However, making this NEWS implies there is something nefarious afoot and that alone should provide the usual morons who love to debate these things an opportunity to display their ignorance.
I, for one, do not welcome our flame-baiting masters . . .
Looking at the mailing list message linked from the article clears up things. Kubuntu 8.04 will not be "unsupported" - it will simply not be an LTS (long-term support) release. This means that it will "only" be supported for 18 months on the desktop instead of three years.
Also, the concern is not whether features will still be being added to 3.5, but whether bugs fill be fixed upstream. From TFM: "Will a bug in KDE 3.5 receive upstream attention in March 2011?"
................... Wow.
This is the most blatant bit of racism I have ever seen. I live a charmed life, I'll agree. Still... Wow...
P.S. Language is a beautiful thing. What geek would disagree? What is this person doing on Slashdot?
Disclaimer: I am GNOME user for eight years, but I recommend KDE for powerusers. Thanks God that we have choice.
Problem is very simple - KDE guys don't guarantee that KDE 3.5 will be supported next 3 years (which is obvious - KDE 4 is just around the corner and all development efforts will be channelled to it), but KDE 4 won't be useful until end of next year (basis is there, but lot of stuff must be ported). So it is kinda dumb situation. However, Kubuntu 8.04 WILL be released, it just won't be 3 years supported, aka LTS, but tradicionally 18 months, which is half of that time. After that, Kubuntu 8.10 release will contain KDE 4 at it's best.
So - not kinda cool that there won't be LTS for KDE, but still - there will be release.
p.s. it is a little bit sad that rather fine article summary contains somehow weak attempt to cause flamewar. Yes, KDE is popular, but also is GNOME - I know lot of KDE fanboys has problems to admit that (ohh, and it is similar with GNOME fanboys to admit that KDE is desktop of choice for many people, of course).
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
Oh fantastic. No kidding - guess what I decided to install on my new computer this afternoon!
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Is there any info regarding how soon KDE 4 will be out?
I'm having problems with KDE under FreeBSD, but now Mr Yushchenko suggests I should just use the latest release. I'm not sure if 3.5 will do the trick, or I should just wait for 4.0?
I use Kubuntu and was looking forward to the new version. What does this mean for me? Will I be stuck on the current version while the Ubuntu folks roll out a nice LTS version with nice features I won't be getting, or will there be an "unstable" version I can track?
Failing all that, what's a nice distro for KDE power users and developers? I've been using Debian for ages and I'm comfortable with Gentoo (although I'd prefer something else). Any suggestions?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I think this move is a mistake because the goal of Ubuntu has been to lessen the gap between non-technical users and Linux gurus. This introduces another layer of complexity for those non-technical users. I think it's a mistake to mix LTS and non-LTS in same-numbered/named versions of the OS. They have a variety of options here and I think they picked the worst of the lot. They should just add it to a community maintained repository or a backport from the next version.
Someone with an active interest in Linux isn't likely to be confused, but there's a growing number of Linux users who don't follow Linux as an interest, it's just the thing on their computer. More than most other distros, those are the people that Ubuntu has been trying to cater to. I think they chose the worst possible option given their target audience.
It might seem ridiculous to think a seemingly minor detail could confuse or scare off people, but after years of working in support (and I think any support representatives would agree) you might be surprised at how easily people form mental blocks and shut down (mentally) when faced with any computer-related issue. When you walk someone through a process and a button doesn't say exactly what you indicate, they panic. To them "END" is not the same as "FINISH" or "DONE, even though they should all mentally register as a word signifying completion. And then they won't even tell you the name of the button that appeared on their screen, they'll only tell you that they don't see the one you said, like you're playing some sort of sadistic "I Spy" riddle game. Sorry for the digression. Old trauma.
(I'm not knocking Ubuntu for catering to non-technical users. I prefer Ubuntu myself, though I've been a Linux user much longer.)
Otherwise Slackware, or possibly Mepis, the latter of which is based on Debian Lenny, IIRC.
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
KDE or emacs?
Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
I can see that Kubuntu 8.04 will be released without LTS. Fair enough.
But this is just confusing. Will it use KDE 3.5, or will it use KDE 4.0?
It relates to Long term support. KDE delayed the release of 4.0 for ubuntu 7.10 (october). It cannot thus be included in the LTS version coming out next year. This is mostly KDE's own fault for not meeting their projected deadlines.
Cheers.
Yet Socrates himself is particularly missed.
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.
In other news... For those of you wanting to use KDE 4.0, Fedora 9 will be supporting it. It is currently in the rawhide build and can be installed on Fedora 8 by using the development repo.
I imagine a lot of Ubuntu's users don't want to be guinea pigs for KDE 4, and to claim 3 years support for something that will only be supported for a fraction of that time would be dishonest. Besides 18 months of support isn't that bad considering with Ubuntu's 6 month release schedule they'll be on something like 10.2 before support for 8.4 will be gone.
Even after KDE 4.0 is released it will take some time for Plasma to mature and accumulate useful accessories, but the real issue is how long it will take for other systems to either pick up or in some way duplicate Plasma as they almost certainly will.
Kubuntu 8.04 is still planned to be released alongside Ubuntu 8.04, just without long-term service as previously planned. That just means the Gnome stuff in 8.04 will receive security updates longer than the KDE stuff in 8.04.
the more I use Knoppix vs Ubuntu the more Gnome seems limited.. but KDE is too wide open.
The effect of Suse or Mandriva releases I've used was to reskin half of KDE to make it "simpler" but then leave you digging for options in the other half they didn't feel like updating. Neither distro reskins the same things either. The effect is that most KDE "fans" end up using the bog default version and adding their own customizations to it.
While that's great for everybody to have their own, it sucks for a community distro because nobody agrees on which things to strip out.. nobody agrees on a sane default and nobody want's to clean up the multiple option panes in 8 different places in a sane manner. That's what keeps it from being default in more distros. The Gnome folks just force what they think is sane and everybody lives with it... it's not great but it's easier for new users because there's only "one way" in most cases so at least support is easier.
There is still some licensing issues with the underlying QT license in that it is all-GPL or all-pay... there's no LGPL like GTK and Gnome. It looks like they fixed the cross-platform license problems (QT windows was pay only for a long time) but GTK already snapped up most of the cross platform action and troltech hasn't done much to go after it. Most QT stuff at this point is strictly Linux as "K" apps.. there's not much incentive to port to windows or mac because there are already GTK equivalents in that space.
i do agree, I think we should trust Trolltech more than Novell at this point due to Novell being "in bed" with Microsoft and the head of their cross platform projects being too much of a Microsoft fanboi and not paying attention to Microsoft's history of screwing their partners over IP issues. Mono, Samba, open office are all on the block for Novell to screw up by putting Microsoft "IP" in there "nobody" else can use.
I'm a Kubuntu user and currently consider it the best OS for me since I want the bets open source system I can have. However, the LTS policy is a bad joke - I never got the current LTS version (dapper) to work with my Asus K8N4-E Deluxe motherboard and sata harddrives and I along with many other users complained about it on the forums until the bug report was closed with the decision that it won't be fixed since fixing it might break too many other things (and some had reported the bug even prior to the release). And in addition to that motherboard, the problem seems to be common with many other nforce4 motherboards as well - sata drives don't work. They do, however, work fine with the new, non-LTS release.
Any Ubuntu developers reading this: As much as I appreciate your efforts and am grateful for the OS, it is hard to take an OS seriously if developers decide that in the "long-term support" version they won't fix a bug like that which affects motherboards with such a common chipset. Can you imagine MS ever doing such a thing? Ubuntu has reached a state where people do try to take it as a viable alternative for serious use and consequently expectations are higher and that's what you want, isn't it? So live up to those then.
I use Kubuntu. Right now KDE is in a major transition phase, moving from KDE3/qt3 to KDE4/qt4 is a bigger change than Gnome has ever done, seriously. While a few things survive porting it's fairly close to a rewrite of everyting KDE is. Supporting KDE4 for a LTS is a "no way" kind of thing, it'll barely be released and KDE has some creative defintions of RC. The only real option would be supporting KDE 3.5, which while I think would be good it something upstream may or may not do. After all, "kubuntu" will support all the server packages in Ubuntu, just not KDE. If they've been recültant to promise 3 years support, I certainly understand why Canonical would. When push comes to shove, they really don't want to sell much more than what upstream provides anyway.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You're moving to Mepis to get three years of commercial support on the current version? Oh wait.. they don't sell that. There's plenty of reasons to switch, but this makes no sense. You can still get 18 months commercial support, and both versions of KDE are available in the repositories.
Basically, NO ONE can support KDE3.x for the next three years because the KDE developers will probably neglect it in 2 years. NO ONE can sell a rock-solid KDE4 distro (ie. LTS) this spring because it's simply not ready. So they are *only* providing 18 months commercial support -sounds fair. The only other rational option would be to postpone both LTS versions to 8.10.
"Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
As a user of Mandriva, I think six month releases are too frequent. I have found clean installs to have fewer problems than upgrades. Those take up a lot of time to be done every six months... I like the recent emphasis on backports. Wouldn't it be better to have more bullet-proof yearly releases with backports of the best of the upgraded features to the LTS version during development? Seems to be the best of both worlds...
I agree, and don't think you should have been modded flamebait, though I can see why some people might think it is. Special cases are anathema to good interface design. Things that are by all appearances of the same kind should be treated the same by the interface. Each special case introduces a new context the user has to learn. Special cases that change with every release are even worse.
I don't have a problem with limited configurability, if the defaults are sane. Special cases aren't. KDE has some problems with special cases too, but they're easy enough to configure away if they become a nuisance. I've only run into one special case problem in Leopard, and it was hard to fix -- but honestly no harder to fix than a Gnome usability issue would be to a noob. I'm referring to how the Dock handles folders. In Tiger and before, clicking a folder would open a Finder window for the folder. Now "Stacks" open by default, a layer of indirection I don't want.
After all, I am strangely colored.
GTK already snapped up most of the cross platform action and troltech hasn't done much to go after it. Most QT stuff at this point is strictly Linux as "K" apps.. there's not much incentive to port to windows or mac because there are already GTK equivalents in that space.
If the OS X native port of GTK doesn't get its ass in gear, that is about to change. GTK on OS X means using X11. KDE4 apps on Mac will run native. About a year from now, we'll be seeing polished KDE4 apps on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
A new operating system. Runs all know programs regardless of architecture. But then your soul belongs to the "evil one".
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
This is a conspiracy to force all users to switch to GNOME. We will NOT be fooled! We will NOT switch from KDE, which works splendidly, to GNOME, which works marvelously. Ubuntu is a splendid OS. It deserves a splendid UI. Not a marvelous one.
http://qt-apps.org/ Just run those on any OS what you want, they run on GNU/Linux and on MacOSX or Windows.
KDE4 will come multi-platform because it use Qt4 and you can port those for any other OS too and not just GNU/Linux or it's distros. It just seems that whole KDE4 cannot be run top of windows (to replace windows explorer, shell and few other) but it applications can be runned.
So with KDE4, Amarok and Koffice (+ other great apps) will come to windows OS's and for MacOSX's etc.
There is no need to use GTK for multiplatform anymore when you can use Qt to get nice and powerfull application.
Qt4 even includes Phonon and few other KDE4 hardware parts so video and sound can be played wihtout need what multimediaplayer or OS is under, windows, macosx or GNU/Linux!
Yeah, Gnome is now totally dependent on Mono.
ah, who's the racist now eh? Begrudging a poor gay nigger the freedom to express himself, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
It's a desktop based on the QT (QED Toolkit), and is extensively used in the field of mathematics.
Interestingly, there's a big debate on just this topic. The blueprint is Hardy-reducing-duplication. There's a strong movement (not including me) to remove Mono, Tomboy, and F-Spot from the Ubuntu default install and use Gnome Sticky Notes and GThumb, which are also included. There really seems to be a big anti-Mono movement out there.
I personally think that most of the fast, interesting work on Gnome apps is happening with Mono, so I don't want to see it removed, but that's just my opinion. Top 10 Improved Ubuntu Applications of 2007 from my blog talks a little about it. While this is officially self-promotion, there are no ads on my blog, so it doesn't make me any money.
Put identity in the browser.
It would be interestng to see if we can make a donation that stands out when the new and improved KDE is released.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
Qt no longer requires that your open source application be GPL'd to link with it. You can use it with many other open source licenses, as listed on their website.
You can be an insane coder too, read: Insane Coding
Ooh, ooh! I use Kopete, and Debian. Please, submit your patch to Debian (or I will be glad to do it for you)! Debian often includes patches that upstream has yet to apply. And if Debian patches it, it will make it into Ubuntu as well (assuming they also include KDE 3.5.x in Kubuntu 8.10; it could also end up in their backports).
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
While there is absolutely zero reason to have any trust whatsoever for Miguel or Novell as a whole, the good news is that we have no need to trust them. If they do something nasty to GTK or any other important parts of Gnome, we'll fork.
This is bullshit! KDE 3.5 is perfectly acceptable. The fact that a new version is coming out sometime in the future is a idiot reason to drop support. "Old" versions of software don't just vanish on release dates. Who they hell died and made Ubuntu the god of release dates? Is this going to happen for any piece of software that happens to have a release date close to Ubuntu's? Or is this only the case for KDE because Ubuntu is GNOME centric?
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
While there is absolutely zero reason to have any trust whatsoever for Miguel or Novell as a whole, the good news is that we have no need to trust them. If they do something nasty to GTK or any other important parts of Gnome, we'll fork.
While that sounds just fine if you're a single user out banging on the keyboard at home, try telling that to a hospital IT department after they've gone through the hardship of moving everything from Windows to Linux/Gnome. If you want to put a putrid taste toward Linux and OSS in managements mouth, do what you are saying, "we'll fork". I am afraid THIS is one of the tactics Microsoft has plans for. It'll buy them another 5-10 years of the mindset that Windows is a safe bet and nobody'll get fired for using it. IMO
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
When talking with customers I'd of course explain to them what that means from their perspective, namely a kind of insurance against bad management decisions in the projects that develop the software they use.
hmmm, talking about the need for an insurance against a products bad management decisions and how it could mean fewer developers behind their chosen product just doesn't sound like something you'd want to bring up at a sales meeting if you can help it. I doubt if any sales rep for a proprietary product is going to talk about such insurances and there is a good reason for that. It does not provide or provoke a feeling of confidence in the one who's got to put there neck on the line and make the purchase. Forking may be something that's great for the hacker and general population of users who just go along with what is out there but business is not that way. It'll be look at as a possible costly change in the product down the road and a threat to budgets and reliability too.
If 25% of US businesses had just one required Linux based software product inhouse and Microsoft could pull the IP ripcord on those customers then they'd do it today. IMO, 25% is easily a larger enough margin to spread massive FUD into the business world to keep the rest away from Linux and open source for a decade or so. If you've not seen it, what SCO did by sueing AutoZone and others for just using Linux was enough to keep many businesses away from Linux and OSS. That effect has lost much of its value now that word is finally getting out that SCO had nothing up its sleeves.
What do you think will happen when Microsoft shows even just one valid IP claim and goes to collect fees? One valid one and the threat of dozens, or hundreds more, will be enough to tell the business world that Linux and OSS is not free and not a safe bet. Sorry, but Microsoft is out to kill this threat to their Windows monopoly and everything in their history shows that it is a Windows game or no game.
I would rather see OSS move much much further into business and government offices for competitive reasons and social reasons. I don't want to see it just continue to exist. Microsoft is not a threat to OSS existence, just it's expansion to the point of a marketshare which is large enough to support far far more consulting positions and be a financial benefit to the public and businesses. So telling businesses about how forking OSS project software is good is not a good idea right now. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
good point about the GTK dragging. My point is that all the cross platform apps I use like Gimp, Inkscape, etc. are all GTK and work the same on windows, mac, & linux.
The hassle of GTK on mac is that it doesn't fit any of the Mac HIG because it's forced to use X11 compatibility mode. That was a downer on Tiger, but the Leopard version of X11 has big usability problems making it "discouraging" to use right now.
What I'm selling is essentially "GNU/Linux with commercial support". The main competitor is Microsoft Windows Vista, which also happens to be a very fine example for discussing how a product's bad management decisions adversely affect customers. Therefore, for my potential customers it is definitely good news that the free software ecosystem provides some degree of isurance against this kind of problem. Note the meaning of the word "insurance". It doesn't imply a guarantee that a problem cannot occur, it just means that if a bad event of a certain type occurse, its adverse effect will be much less severe than it would be in the case of relying on proprietary software (or on software with a free license but without a large community of developers). Also note that in most cases no actual fork happens, the possibility of forking is generally quite sufficient to prevent project leaders from abusing their influence. That's in fact exactly how things are playing out with Gnome and Mono. I believe that Novell's employee Miguel de Icaza (the founder of the Gnome project) would like to make Gnome dependent on Mono, but it isn't happening because it is clear that the majority of Gnome developers would immediately join the Mono-free fork of Gnome. This is what IMO makes Gnome acceptable for business use even in the absence of any trust for Novell.
What do you think will happen when Microsoft shows even just one valid IP claim and goes to collect fees?
Valid patent claims are few and far between. Versions of the affected software which avoid the encumbered programming idea would be created immediately. We would fight back by pushing for a change of patent law and by suing Microsoft on the basis of existing anti-trust law. (What you're suggesting Microsoft might do would be what is called "patent abuse". It's a serious offence.) The earth would continue to rotate around its axis, just like the general trend of more and more businesses switching to free software would also continue. There might be a temporary slow-down of this trend, and Red Hat and others might sue Microsoft for punitive damages for having caused that by means of anti-competitive actions, but when the dust has settled it would be clear to everyone that the free software movement simply cannot be killed, and that would certainly lead to a significant acceleration of the trend of businesses switching to free software.
I was much more concerned about patent issues until I discussed my concerns with a specialized patent attorney. If you're really concerned, I would recommend that you do the same.
it's good to hear and I hope you are more correct than my thoughts on what could happen. It also sounds like you've had some help in clarifying things so thanks for that. Thanks for mentioning the Gnome forking issues. I'd read that Miguel said he wanted to Mono-ize Gnome and with more and more Gnome utility and task apps showing up with Gnome, I figured he'd already set some Mono hooks into Gnome. This also clarifies how/why businesses could still feel somewhat confident with using Gnome in spite of the Microsoft/Novell deals.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus