First Sight of Google Android

CorinneI writes "At the Mobile World Congress show, four mobile processor vendors demoed pre-production devices running versions of Google's Android OS — a Linux-based, open operating system for mobile phones that will sport Google applications. The biggest surprise of the demos was how well Android runs on slow devices. 'TI showed Android on a Motorola Q-like QWERTY handheld with its 200 Mhz OMAP 850 platform, where the user interface felt smooth and fast, even with little Apple-like animated transitions between screens.' HTC, Motorola, LG, and Samsung all belong to Google's Open Handset Alliance"

Comments

Not surprising

[erick99]

"The biggest surprise of the demos was how well Android runs on slow devices. TI showed Android on a Motorola Q-like QWERTY handheld with their 200 Mhz OMAP 850 platform, where the user interface felt smooth and fast, even with little Apple-like animated transitions between screens."

I don't know why that would be so surprising. Google has quite a bevy of talented people at all levels. All products that come out of Google seem to have something to do with advertising and Android will be just such a vehicle for them. It's how most everything in cyberspace gets funded. You get something for free (a video, a song, a game) and an advertiser pays.

Re:Not surprising

[dotancohen]

Also, 200 mhz really isn't that slow for an embedded device. My Mio 339 had a 233 mhz processor running Windows Mobile 2002. It flew, I really loved it. I replaced it with a Dell Axim x50v Windows Mobile 2003SE. The Dell has a 624 mhz processor and I'm always waiting for it. I believe that speed is 10% hardware, 90% software.

I won't even talk about the performance of Compiz-Fusion on my Inspiron, as compared to Vista on the same hardware that an associate has.

Re:Not surprising

[AKAImBatman]

The OMAP 850 is a multimedia-focused chip with graphics acceleration built in. The only surprise is that the reviewer called it "slow" based on the mere fact that it's a 200MHz chip.

Re:Not surprising

[Brian Gordon]

I don't know why that's slow for any device? Why on earth do you need fancy graphics for a telephone anyway? Linux runs on much slower hardware.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing the ascii version of google earth wouldn't wow people much.

You are here ---> .

Your destination is here ---> .

Re:Not surprising

[symes]

All products that come out of Google seem to have something to do with advertising and Android will be just such a vehicle for them And that is why I'll probably pass - Google has permeated through to many corners of my life but when it comes to such an intimate gadget (in that... nah, I'll let you work that out) I think I'd rather pay a premium and leave the advertising behind.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

No acceleration is currently used on these platforms. All graphics are done using a frame buffer at this time.

Re:Not surprising

[Zelos]

Rendering web pages takes a decent amount of CPU to do quickly, for one.

Also, it's an ARM core, so (presumably) no FPU and a single integer pipeline. Something like the performance of an mid-range Pentium 1.

Re:Not surprising

[dlim]

I can't say I'm surprised either. If you look at their design philosophy, the first subheading is "Fast". Coming from a web/desktop development background, I was surprised at first to see the constant focus on efficiency. But apparently, it's paying off.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

God...why do people need color and graphics? Why can't they just use the console to do everything on their phones? God, people are so stupid. If everyone would just learn how to use emacs and program in Fortran, every computer could just have a 133MHz processor and 128MB of RAM. People are so dumb.

./ruby phone.mask/maps fsk -kshk BOOM!!1 (fire, people screaming in the background)

Re:Not surprising

[AKAImBatman]

Rendering web pages takes a decent amount of CPU to do quickly, for one.

Not really. Web-page rendering is memory intensive and I/O bound. The amount of device memory available combined with the speed of your connection and phone bus will have a much greater impact on the performance of page rendering than the CPU.

In fact, there are few common tasks which are CPU-bound these days. Video encoding/decoding come to mind. (Thus the low resolution of the Android player.) This can easily be mitigated in a multimedia device by including hardware decoder chips. Gaming is another area where CPU can have an impact, but I imagine these phones aren't being presented as portable game machines. If someone wanted to make the next Android NGage, they'd probably look to NVidia for an embedded 3D chip to offload much of the work from the CPU.

The iPhone's success wasn't because it had a fast enough CPU to render web pages. Quite the contrary. The success was that its memory, storage capacity, and touch screen allowed the iPhone developers to provide an easy-to-use interface to the browser. Safari itself isn't necessarily "better" than Opera Mini, but it is wrapped in a superior user-interface.

Re:Not surprising

[Gilmoure]

My Newton 2100 runs on a 162 Mhz processor. Is still plenty fast.

Martha will never know what hit her!

Re:Not surprising

[Zelos]

I wasn't aware of the memory issue - I just remember how slow web pages rendered on my Nokia 9500 with its puny CPU even using a WiFi connection.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny. But am I the only person who thought how cool googleearth would be through aalib?

Re:Not surprising

[omeomi]

I don't know why that would be so surprising.

Well, the emulator is a tad on the slow side. I for one, was hoping the actual devices were going to be faster, so it's nice to hear that they are.

Re:Not surprising

[Bobfrankly1]

The only surprise is that the reviewer called it "slow" based on the mere fact that it's a 200MHz chip. Reading the full article. Try it.

One of Marvell's Android demos ran on their XScale Monahans processor, which comes in various configurations up to 1 Ghz. If I was comparing 200MHz to 1Ghz, I would consider it slow as well. 1Ghz compared to 0.2Ghz. One fifth the power.

=Obligatory Car Analogy=
If you had a car with 300Horsepower next to a car with 60Horsepower, what would you call the lesser car in a performance test?

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

If the old one worked, why replace it? Or did it break down?

Re:Not surprising

[Oldav]

If your axim is slow try the kozahura WM6 ROM which I believe supports the AXIM, made my HP4700 a sh*tload faster! See http://forum.brighthand.com/showthread.php?t=246529&page=4 Worked great for me,!

Re:Not surprising

[RulerOf]

If I was comparing 200MHz to 1Ghz, I would consider it slow as well. 1Ghz compared to 0.2Ghz. One fifth the power.

=Obligatory Car Analogy=
If you had a car with 300Horsepower next to a car with 60Horsepower, what would you call the lesser car in a performance test?
Unfortunately in this day and age, saying one CPU is faster than another based on clock speed alone is like saying one human runs a race faster than another based on his height, "Well obviously the big guy's going to win! He's 20% taller than the short one!"

Re:Not surprising

[GreenEnvy22]

Quite true, the TI 850 is in all sorts of HTC devices, it runs WM6 at a reasonable clip (quicker then WM5 I find).

Re:Not surprising

[Sparr0]

If the 300HP car weighed 6x as much as the 60HP one? I'd call the 60HP one "faster".

Re:Not surprising

[AKAImBatman]

If you had a car with 300Horsepower next to a car with 60Horsepower, what would you call the lesser car in a performance test?

What would I call it? Perfectly capable of driving on the Interstate, that's what I'd call it. The bar isn't being set very high when we're just talking about meeting the needs of graphics rendering. A CPU with a built-in GPU is quite capable of "driving on the interstate" as it were. Now if they were in an actual race, presumably the 300hp car would win. (Assuming it's not an oversized truck. ;)) But there's no race. Only a minimum requirement.

Re:Not surprising

[Erpo]

"The biggest surprise of the demos was how well Android runs on slow devices. TI showed Android on a Motorola Q-like QWERTY handheld with their 200 Mhz OMAP 850 platform, where the user interface felt smooth and fast, even with little Apple-like animated transitions between screens."

I don't know why that would be so surprising.

Android is based on Java. In many minds, Java = slow. Also, some mobile phones have very high latency interfaces. Example: on the Virgin Mobile MARBL phone that I just replaced, it would take several seconds to respond to a keypress when dialing phone numbers. I would dial 17078221927, and the 1 would show up on the screen at about the same time that I pressed the 9 button.

Re:Not surprising

[Breakfast Pants]

Basically with more memory, you only do the initial rendering once, and cache that. Then when you scroll around, etc., it is just basically just blitting from memory.

Re:Not surprising

[cheater512]

Palms seem to do it with Blazer pretty well.
The bandwidth is always the bottleneck not the hardware.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

So I guess the 3.2 Ghz Pentium 4 that I was using 4 years ago was better than the 2.4 Ghz Core 2 duo in my new computer? Because 3.2 is bigger, right?

Moron.

Re:Not surprising

[Ryukotsusei]

I for one welcome our new gAndroid overlords!

Re:Not surprising

[dfn_deux]

Good call! Also, the parent poster's car analogy is exactly like the processor comparison except that the parent poster also seems to be taken in by the over simplification of the comparison. There are many cars with big HP numbers which are absolute pigs when it comes to performance and likewise there are many cars without huge HP numbers which are seriously fast. A 60hp aircooled vw motor in a formula-Vee could run circles around a 300hp V8 in a 1972 Olds Toronado.

Re:Not surprising

[krazytekn0]

You young'uns and your new-fangled "FORTRAN" and "CONSOLES". It's like you don't even know how to use punch cards any more! Oh sh^t gotta go, my vacuum tubes are getting overloaded.

Re:Not surprising

[SanityInAnarchy]

Of course, there's an upper limit to software speed. You can always throw more hardware at the problem, but at a certain point, there just isn't a faster algorithm you can write. (I just finally got this when, after scoffing at the though of using Ruby to run a webserver, I discovered how easy and (relatively) cheap it is to simply throw more hardware at a well-written Rails app. Ruby does have massive speedups in its future (maybe 2-3x), but I can get that now by simply booting 2-3x as many EC2 instances.)

But I hear you. In fact, it was only two computers ago that I shared a 200 mhz desktop. Now I've got a dual 2.4 ghz computer, and every now and then, I watch a single-threaded video encode take up only one core, helpless to find much for the other core to do, and go "Holy shit this thing is fast!" It can be this kind of startling experience.

Re:Not surprising

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

The OMAP 850 is a multimedia-focused chip with graphics acceleration built in. The only surprise is that the reviewer called it "slow" based on the mere fact that it's a 200MHz chip.

The OMAP 850 is slow. There are 4-year-old phones which had an OMAP 850. Can't we do better than that?

Re:Not surprising

[dotancohen]

You are not going to believe this, but all my software from my operating systems, to my applications, to my music and videos is legal. No can do pirate ROM. Thanks, though.

Re:Not surprising

[dotancohen]

Screencast it and play it back in mplayer. Mplayer on the console is just so much fun.

Re:Not surprising

[dotancohen]

I accidentally broke the screen. It's now a project waiting to happen. It might see Linux some day and with a 4GB SD card could make for a decent low powered text file and photo home server.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Additionally, notice what can be done when you give engineers and developers a decent environment/atmosphere in which to work. I'll make sure my pointy-haired boss knows about it.

Re:Not surprising

[Simon Brooke]

=Obligatory Car Analogy=
If you had a car with 300Horsepower next to a car with 60Horsepower, what would you call the lesser car in a performance test?

That is a really foolish analogy. The usable speed of a car is about engineering, not horsepower. Just like computer applications, really.

Re:Not surprising

[gygy]

Probably the HTC version will not have drivers and will run on "safe mode". http://htcclassaction.org/

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids these days with their vacuum tubes... Ouch! My beard got caught in the relais' again!

Re:Not surprising

[Mr Z]

If it weren't for you pesky kids, I'd be able to surf in peace with my Difference Engine.

Re:Not surprising

[Brian Gordon]

I've got a beowulf cluster of half adders in my basement that can do anything your fancy contraption can do.

Re:Not surprising

[olip]

If the 300HP car weighed 6x as much as the 60HP one? I'd call the 60HP one "faster".

I'd call it slower.
Both will have the same acceleration until air drag is involved.
Supposing they have the same shape (formally : equal CdA), the top speed of the 300HP car is approximately sqrt(6)=2,45 times the top speed of the 60HP one, which I would then call slower.
Weight has no direct impact on top speed.

Re:Not surprising

[Mordaximus]

If I was comparing 200MHz to 1Ghz, I would consider it slow as well. 1Ghz compared to 0.2Ghz. One fifth the power.

The only assumption you can make based on the one sentence you quoted from the article is that one processor operates at one fifth the frequency of the other.

=Obligatory Car Analogy=
If you had a car with 300Horsepower next to a car with 60Horsepower, what would you call the lesser car in a performance test?

If, and only if, you had those two engines in identical cars, you can be confident the 300HP car would perform better. Once you start changing factors, it's not as obvious.

That aside, speaking to the car analogy, horsepower describes how much work each car's engine could dish out, it's an actual meaningful metric. It is not analogous to Hz. Clock speeds describe how often something happens. A more apt analogy would be to compare the performance of two cars, one is at 3000rpm and the other at 2500rpm. Much like comparing clock speeds, it ignores how much work can be accomplished on every stroke. The only time rpm is a meaningful performance metric, is when all other factors are equitable (same car, same engine, same gear etc.) The same stands for computing and Hz.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Weight has no direct impact on top speed.

It does on corners

Re:Not surprising

[drinkypoo]

I have a Motorola Razr V3i and before that had a V300 (hacked to V500.) Both phones have a 32 bit, ~200MHz RISC chip and the interface is SLOW AS HELL because Motorola is lame. Also the Java on both phones sucks. I hope this google thing takes off.

Re:Not surprising

[Sparr0]

Same acceleration? Say what? Ignoring inefficiencies in the drive train, the power/mass ratio is directly proportional to acceleration. If the 300HP car is 5x the weight of the 60HP car then they will accelerate at the same rate. If the more powerful one is any heavier than that then the weaker one will accelerate faster. Top speed is a function of power/drag, which you described somewhat accurately, but in the common case that both cars are capable of achieving the desired speed and the more powerful car is capable of going twice that speed, the lighter car is faster by any useful measurement.

Re:Not surprising

[Sparr0]

And by weight I mean mass. Stupid American.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

But that in turn depends on the transmission...

Re:Not surprising

[WhiteWolf666]

Both will have the same acceleration until air drag is involved. ...
Weight has no direct impact on top speed.

Say what?

That's why they continue to use 60HP outboard motors on oil supertankers, right?

Re:Not surprising

[WhiteWolf666]

Several of Google's services have "paid-for" versions which are ad-free:
Google Earth
Google Apps
Google Appliances
Also, Google SketchUp Pro, and a few others. Many of these don't even send data back to Google.

As long as they can monetize it, Google will sell it; it doesn't have to just be an ad platform, and I think that their mobile push is an attempt at diversification away from Ads.

I don't think Google is an Ad company; I think it is an information company, and so far the best way they've found to turn high-end information management into revenue is via ads; but if they can find alternative revenue generators I'm sure they be happy to do so.

Re:Not surprising

[Muad'Dave]

Is Smug's Pizza at 1034 G Street, Arcata, CA 95521 any good?

Re:Not surprising

[bkr1_2k]

"Funny. But am I the only person who thought how cool googleearth would be through aalib?"
Yes, you are.

Re:Not surprising

[Erpo]

It's all right if you don't want to leave town. If you're up for a 45 minute drive, go to Ferndale Pizza Company instead.

Re:Not surprising

[Bobfrankly1]

Actually it was an incomplete analogy. I should have brought attention to the OS being the same and that they are all phones with similar architecture.

That being said my adjusted analogy would be:
If you had a 2007 Mustang with 60 horsepower next to a 2007 Mustang with 300 horsepower, with a weight difference of 50 lbs, and the cars were identical outside of the engine and drivetrain, which would you call the lesser car in a performance test?

Re:Not surprising

[tigersha]

30000 years ago Neanderthal Ogg was bitching about this newfangled "wheel" thing his friend Zurg showed him and swore that he never needed this unnecessary high-tech and that walking is good enough for him

The tragic part today is that it is the techies who are bitching about the high-tech. Here a hint: Style over substance is bad, sure. But just because something HAS style does not mean it has no substance.

Re:Not surprising

[drinkypoo]

Some PDAs with 3D acceleration have come out and the technology is working its way into phones as well. I'd expect the gaming aspect to be marketed more as time goes by, especially as more phones get better bluetooth support with more profiles, and as 3D support in mobile Java improves.

Re:Not surprising

[drinkypoo]

Obligatory correction of car analogy: clock rate is more like RPM than horsepower. Cars with more displacement (which tend to have more cylinders) tend to have more power at a given RPM than cars with less. They're not really analogous, but processors with more functional units tend to do more per clock cycle, provided there's enough logic there to make things happen. That's why generation after generation, AMD processors have tended to achieve performance around the same level as intel's even though they tend to have a lower clock rate.

You can also raise the compression to get more power out of an engine; either through a change in engine geometry which takes effect all the time, via a supercharger which increases compression as engine RPM increases, or through one or more turbochargers which can come on at various RPM levels. Again, while they aren't quite analogous, we have various techniques besides adding functional units to make a processor faster. We can't increase base compression, but we can built a computer with a wider bit path. We can't add a supercharger or a turbocharger, but we can add one or more coprocessors (examples include x86-compatible floating point coprocessors, which used to even be on separate chips, as well as the altivec processing engine in recent PowerPC processors) which do additional heavy lifting. I guess that's more like a hybrid or a second engine though, which underscores the point that automotive analogies suck and must be made only with the utmost caution.

Re:Not surprising

[olip]

That's why they continue to use 60HP outboard motors on oil supertankers, right?
The need for a bigger engine on this class of vessel is to compensate for the enormous drag of the hull at nominal speeds (typically 20 knots), which is only indirectly related to the mass. But you need to floor the gas pedal during several hours to reach this top speed anyway ;-), and this *has* to do with mass.

Re:Not surprising

[WhiteWolf666]

No, No, NO :)

You said "both will have the same acceleration until (water/air) drag is involved"

That's untrue!

You might be thinking of gravity; in which case mass is irrelevant to the rate of acceleration, rather, drag is what matters. That's because gravity is a constant force. Engines, on the other hand, are not a constant force. A engine which puts out less force (60 HP) will accelerate mass X at a slower rate than an engine which puts out more force or power. (300 HP). There's a simple discussion of this here: http://www.procivic.com/pages-horsepower_torque/index.html

There's a more mathematical discussion her: http://www.heumann.com/m5/hp_torque.html

Think of a body in a vacuum, in space, with no gravitational pull. Lets talk about two hypothetical baseballs. Assume the smaller one has a mass of 1 kg, while the larger one has a mass of 100,000 kg. Drag and weight are irrelevant, as there is no friction in space, and no gravity. If we apply a 10 Netwon force to each, the first one will accelerate at 10 m/s^2, while the second one will accelerate at .1 mm/s^2. Of course, Torque is an axial form of force, however, there is a linear relationship between torque and hp at any given RPM, and there is also a linear relationship between Torque and Force at any given radial distance.

People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Anonymous Coward]

After the endless iPhone hype and the actual product turning out to be an overpriced and underfeatured commercial dud, cellphone users are anxious for something like this. With Apple having to hand out refunds to early adopters and slash their future iPhone shipments numbers for 2008 in half its clear that the iPhone hype only touched the hardcore Apple fanbase.

Hopefully the barrage of Apple iPhone story spam will come to an end as everyone moves on to better and less overhyped products like Android.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[PCM2]

After the endless iPhone hype and the actual product turning out to be an overpriced and underfeatured commercial dud

Uhhh...I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but by exactly what standard is the iPhone a "dud"? Last I heard, it was beating every forecast sales target and had already captured 20 percent of the smartphone market in less than a year. In fact, if you haven't seen one at your local coffee shop, bar, or train station yet, you probably live in a cabin in the Ozarks.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Anonymous Coward]

If the iPhone wasn't selling just to Apple fans it would have been a dud. It's more of a 'meh' product. Nowhere near the iPod, and nowhere near as bad as the Apple TV.

Apple having to slash shipment estimates from 2 million down to 1.1 million shows the product is quickly running out of marketplace demand after getting the high disposable income Apple fanbase to buy the product. There are just too many fantastic phones out there to compete with unlike the portable digital music player market.

We'll see if Apple learned their lesson with the first iPhone and come out with a competitive iPhone 2 that is focused more on features and usability and price instead of marketing.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[BobMcD]

you probably live in a cabin in the Ozarks Hey! I in fact AM from the Ozarks, you insensitive clod!

I'm also stoked that I FINALLY got to use one of those phrases!

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[MidnightBrewer]

That's the disadvantage for the iPhone in Japan: fantastic phones already being present. Even though the interface doesn't compare with the iPhone, Japanese cell phones have long since been about style, and even on a bad day, they make "fantastic" American phones look pretty sad indeed.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[king-manic]

In fact, if you haven't seen one at your local coffee shop, bar, or train station yet, you probably live in a cabin in the Ozarks. Or you live in a market where apple has note brokered a sales contract with the local telecom, or basically anywhere except select parts of the US, the UK, Germany, and France. It's got techlust on its side but thus far lacks many of the features smartphone have so it may not crack all of that market yet. I think the only thing it has up on most smart phones is web browsing and hype.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, if you haven't seen one at your local coffee shop, bar, or train station yet, you probably live in a cabin in the Ozarks. Or you live in Canada, where the iPhone still hasn't been officially released yet.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Lonedar]

Having talked to some people around here (UK) it seems to me that Apple would sell many more Iphones by ditching the carrier lock-in it is plagued with currently. Seriously. I can get any phone on the market without having to sign any contracts - except for the Iphone.

Now, O2 is not a particularly bad carrier, but I travel a lot and I would really like to be able to use my phone abroad without paying the quite extortionate roaming fees.

Also, no 3G (yet).

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Anonymous Coward]

Market share statistics, have to love them... If they don't look good, just redefine the market. Your "smart phone market" there is probably either US-only or not very close to what most people would call "smart phones".

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[rossz]

It sells so well because it's the "smartphone for idiots". And there are a hell of a lot of idiots buying cell phones these days. :)

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[MvD_Moscow]

Oh man, I hate when people *cough* Americans * act like nothing exists outside of their local surroundings...

While the iPhone was not a dud, it's commercial success isn't what Jobs & Apple fanboy club pimp it out to be. Long term prospects for the iPhone in particular are quite questionable...

I appreciate you linking to the Ars Technica article, but I wouldn't too excited about it. The 4 million figure has been approached with caution by many analysts. And what forecast are you talking about? I am not too big on following Apple's business dealings, but I don't remember any of the mainstream (Business Week, Economist) making any forecasts that would portray the iPhone's commercial success as phenomenal. Don't get me wrong, but what else did you expect from Apple? They are usually pretty good at making their product appeal to consumers and they have a lot of goodwill among it's primary demographic...

Your 20% figure is a load of BS. It's 20% of the US smartphone market, that's not that big of a deal, specially considering that Apple is extremely US focused. In developing markets, no one gives a fuck about Apple (although this is slowly changing), smartphones in general aren't all that hot. People who have just entered the middle class have better things to do than paying $200 premiums to have the pleasure of having a logo on your phone. The 20% figure is representative of sales of smartphones in one particular year, it doesn't guarantee that sales will be 20% next year. Again, I am not saying that no one will buy iPhones in 2008, I am just saying that there is more to this whole issue than the 20% figure.

Then there is the issue of market demographics, there is a strong possibility that Apple has saturated it's core market. I live and in university environment and I see iPhones all over the place. This doesn't mean as much as you think. While the Facebook generation is in love with the iPhone, this isn't the case for everyone else. When everyone in the Facebook generation demographic gets themselves an iPhone, who is going to buy all those 10 million iPhone that Jobs is going to excrete? We might think that browsing Facebook on your phone is cool, but that's obviously not the case for most consumers.

Finally, there is the issue of competition. Expect a lot more touchscreen based devices in 2008/2009. Any new iPhone that Apple releases is going to be competing with all those products and the original iPhone model (the Facebook generation doesn't have that much cash).

You need to stop eating into the Apple hype (on a business and a consumer level), Apple is just another company. Nothing less nothing more...

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[socz]

I'm not a troll (some say i'm decent looking!) but I have only seen 1 iPhone in Pasadena, CA. The one I saw was by mere chance when someone went into the mail room and someone else asked how they liked their phone. The i was like hmmmmmm but that's about it. This person did mention she waited in line over night to buy it and that she didn't regret the price or the wait, although this was before they mentioned the apple store credit.

I myself have an HTC ppc-6800 and am loving it! I like the fact that i can do what ever i want on it, including running old palm applications from my old kyocera smartphone! But what matters is what i always say, whatever works for you is the best thing for you.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[walter_f]

... was beating every forecast sales target...

On the other hand, in Europe the iPhone rather seems to be missing every forecast sales target.

In Germany, T-mobile on average sells just a fraction more than one iPhone per retail shop per day (there are around 700 T-mobile shops in Germany, total sales figures are between 700 and 1000 iPhones a day, which even includes sales of T-mobile's online shop).

In Great Britain, Apple doesn't allow its partners O2 and Carphone Warehouse to publish their iPhone sales figures at all.

In France, Orange sold 70,000 iPhones in the 33 days between Nov. 29 to Dec. 31, not too bad a start. But in the following 31 days of January, Orange FR's iPhone sales were down to 20,000 iPhones.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[TubeSteak]

Hey! I in fact AM from the Ozarks, you insensitive clod!

I'm also stoked that I FINALLY got to use one of those phrases! In Soviet Russia, those phrases are stoked to use you!
/see how easy that was?

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[meringuoid]

We might think that browsing Facebook on your phone is cool, but that's obviously not the case for most consumers.

I often browse Facebook on my phone. It's a Sony Ericsson K800i - high end 18 months ago, nowadays it's getting to be the standard issue free-with-cheap-contract phone that everyone in the world seems to have. Certainly it doesn't compete with the iPhone as a web browser, but it's capable enough, and Facebook has a perfectly good mobile-optimised site. And you can always install Opera Mini.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Takichi]

Are you trying to say the iPhone won't do well because it isn't stylish enough? I don't see the Japanese phones being more stylish than an expensive, globally buzzworthy product that has a sleek physical design and ubercool user interface. If anything the iPhone will do well because of its association with style and the status that comes with it. I think Apple products in general have an extra sense of style because of their computer designs and the success of the iPod. I can't tell you how many Japanese people look at my powerbook and go, "Makku? Coooru."

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[DrDitto]

Thats because the majority of people in Japan don't have PCs and 20" flat-panel LCDs to browse a rich web environment. Yes, that is a generalization...but my Japanese friends tell me that a very very large percentage of the population do not own computers. Their sole method of communication is via small handsets...even at home. Maybe I am not mobile enough, but my computer does the heavy lifting for surfing the web and my cellular phone is for making phone calls. Call me old school.

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[MvD_Moscow]

I am not talking about people like you and me (hence the term we). I am talking about the 90% of the market that doesn't even know what facebook is. Most consumers views their phones as audio communication devices, not as multimedia devices with communication facilities. Just ask your dad how would it be if he could access Facebook on his cell phone an you'll see what I mean.

Wow, Apple fanboys are out in the wild. Why did I get modded as troll????

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Silver Gryphon]

I, for one, welcome our new stoked Ozarkian overlords.

I got to use one too! w00t!

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Tony Hoyle]

90% of the market doesn't know what facebook is? what???

Even my mother knows what facebook is and she hasn't even got internet!

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[Floritard]

"Makku? Coooru." I have mod points. Why can't I mod the entire japanese race adorable?

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[try_anything]

I'm buying an iPhone the instant I can get it on another provider. I haven't owned an Apple product since the Apple IIgs, and I'm determinedly unstylish to the point of feeling uncomfortable carrying something that might be perceived as stylish, but damn is it better than anything else out there.

I'm very disappointed with the lack of catch-up by other phone makers. We're well into 2008, and nothing is available that even touches it. (If I wanted a Blackberry-type device, I suppose I might be happy with the choices, but I don't want that.) Hey Nokia, Motorola, LG, etc: get on the ball, people! I'm tired of surfing the web looking for your mythical superphones. I hear about this wonderful phone which just happens to be unavailable in the U.S., and I hunt down an English-language review that lists a bunch of kick-ass specs followed by "This is a really exciting phone with a kick-ass feature list, and while the current incarnation is basically a painful piece of shit, this is merely because the Malaysian/Uzbeki/New Jersey/Romanian market doesn't really give a crap about usability or functionality or anything else at all. The U.S. will soon see a version with all the kinks worked out. This phone proves that U.S. cell phone buyers have soooooo much to look forward to in [2004... 2006... 2008... now 2010]."

Today these mythical superphones get pitched as "iPhone competitors" or even "iPhone killers", but they're the same old fairy tale. Apple made a great phone, and they didn't need to practice by making crappy phones for foreign markets first. Cell company executive: "What are you saying? Making crappy feature-orgy phones for foreign markets isn't the right and natural first step in developing a well-designed phone for the U.S. market? Ahhhhh, my world is crumbling!"

Re:People Excited After The iPhone Marketplace Dud

[foniksonik]

Uh... it has more marketshare that all Windows Mobile devices combined from all vendors *right now*

The only device that beats it in it's category is the Blackberry line... just fYI

Sadly, Android and OpenMoko...

[theGreater]

...seem destined not to converge in any significant way, in spite of some pretty awesome hacks:

http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973

-theGreater.

Re:Sadly, Android and OpenMoko...

[Hatta]

Sadly? Isn't choice a good thing?

Re:Sadly, Android and OpenMoko...

[cecom]

Not in this case. Android cannot be ported to the Neo 1973 because sadly it is not open source (yet).

not only that

[nguy]

Not only are the developers good, they have implemented exactly this system before and run it on low-end processors: they developed Danger's Hiptop (a company built from the ground up on Java, strangely enough recently purchased by Microsoft).

Re:not only that

[hitmark]

hmm, danger. wasnt the woz involved there?

supposedly open source

[nguy]

Google has promised that Android will become fully open source at some point; then it should be fairly easy to port it.

Re:supposedly open source

[phillips321]

proof of this? link would be appreciated :-) more people need to rtfa.co.uk

Re:supposedly open source

[nguy]

Just use Google!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=android%20open%20source

Then you find:

http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_overview.html

"Android will be open source; it can be liberally extended to incorporate new cutting edge technologies as they emerge. The platform will continue to evolve as the developer community works together to build innovative mobile applications."

Twould be nice...

[otis wildflower]

... to be able to flash older phones which have the hardware support to handle Android..

I'm lookin at YOU E70.. (Or Treo..)

Re:Twould be nice...

[Constantine XVI]

And I look at my HTC StrTrk

Missed opportunity

[GBC]

Off-topic I know, but surely the obvious headline for the article seen at the top of this image was "Weepublican or Democrap" given the subject matter?

Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Since only the kernel is Linux, and that is the only GPL component, I'm not sure you can call it linux (it the distribution sense), or open.

The unfortunate thing about this Android is

[fohat]

it's got a pain in all the diodes down it's left side. (and it's very depressed)

Where's Google Talk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's Google Talk in all those screen shots or article text? I sure as heck have no interest in SMS for my chat needs. Google Talk with a video capable client (a la iChat on the Mac) would be really nice for my VTC needs. *sigh*

200MHz is slow?

[bigdanmoody]

Since when was 200MHz slow? My old Visor Edge has a 16MHz processor and it feels quite peppy. It does everything I would expect a smartphone to do (other than the fact that it can't make phone calls), and it's easy to use. Have we gotten so used to bloat and poorly optimized code that a 200MHz processor in a phone seems slow? It's a *phone* for Pete's sake.

Re:200MHz is slow?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a *phone* for Pete's sake.

What does MY sake have to do with any phone, you insensitive clod?

Too long to wait

[rossz]

I'm looking for a new smartphone right now. The Android based phones will fit the bill, but I doubt any products will be available until near the end of the year - perhaps just in time for the Christmas rush.

What I want:

1. QWERTY keyboard, the LG Voyager has the nicest keyboard I've tried. To bad the Voyager is locked down in BREW hell.
2. Internet connectivity.
3. Supports IMAP email to any server (I run my own).
4. I don't have to pay a damn fee to enable for every little feature that it already comes with.
5. I can install new applications without using some paid for server, e.g. there's a Symbian OS version of Putty. An ssh client would be awesome.
6. Unlimited data plan available with provider - and reasonably priced.

Would be nice, but not required:

1. Linux based (not much out there, probably have to settle for a Symbian based phone).
2. GPS module.
3. Wifi support.
4. If the phone has music playing capability, support for OGG (I'm not holding my breath).
5. Camera, not really a big deal to me. I can live without one.

Deal breakers:

1. Locked down. It's my damn phone, you won't be telling me how I can use it!
2. Windows Mobile. I'm a Linux system administrator, running a windows based phone would be so wrong.
3. BREW/GIN or anything similar.

So far, the Nokia E90 is the closest to match what I want. The Road's HandyPC S101 surpasses it, but isn't available in the US (afaik).

Re:Too long to wait

[lubricated]

I got the sidekick id. It's got an sdk but you can't install any application. There is an ssh client for it though.

Re:Too long to wait

[phillips321]

I'll second that, The E90 is a mint phone. What i would like is a full OS with phone capabilities. Imagine something the size of the Road Handy PC S101 that ran ubuntu, then we could have ssh, vnc, ftp, etc.....My dream come true!

Re:Too long to wait

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm looking for a new smartphone right now. The Android based phones will fit the bill, but I doubt any products will be available until near the end of the year - perhaps just in time for the Christmas rush.

The closest phone that I know is the upcoming Sony Ericsson Xperia X1.

1. QWERTY keyboard, the LG Voyager has the nicest keyboard I've tried. To bad the Voyager is locked down in BREW hell. -> It have this
2. Internet connectivity. -> It have this
3. Supports IMAP email to any server (I run my own). ...I don't know but is Symbian based so you can have this in it
4. I don't have to pay a damn fee to enable for every little feature that it already comes with. ...is Symbian based, you can have this in it
5. I can install new applications without using some paid for server, e.g. there's a Symbian OS version of Putty. An ssh client would be awesome. -> It have this
6. Unlimited data plan available with provider - and reasonably priced. ... I don't know this thing it in US, but in Spain we have this with one provider (1,20/day without traffic limit 3G speed)

Would be nice, but not required:

1. Linux based (not much out there, probably have to settle for a Symbian based phone). ...Sorry is Symbian based
2. GPS module. -> I'm not sure about this
3. Wifi support. -> It have this
4. If the phone has music playing capability, support for OGG (I'm not holding my breath). -> Sorry, no official ogg support
5. Camera, not really a big deal to me. I can live without one. -> It have a autofocus 3,2mpx camera

Some technical details:
size 4.3 x 0.7 x 2.1 inches
resolution: 800 X 480
networks: # GSM 850 # GSM 900 # GSM 1800 # GSM 1900 # EDGE # HSDPA # HSUPA # UMTS 850 # UMTS 900 # UMTS 1700 # UMTS 1900 # UMTS 2100
more info in: http://www.sonyericsson.com/cws/products/mobilephones/specifications/x1?cc=en&lc=en

Re:Too long to wait

[PitaBred]

I've got a Blackberry 8800 with all of the features you require (free apps for SSH and everything, I also run my own IMAP server) on T-Mobile, which has a flat-rate data plan and doesn't lock any devices. In fact, I just got a cheap Motorola L6 to toss in my pocket for when I don't feel like putting my crackberry on my hip when I go out. It has GPS, but no wifi. It does support music, but only MP3's, and no camera unfortunately. But the Pearl has Wifi and a camera, just no GPS that I'm aware of. So you can have most of your requireds and would-be-nice's.

Can you tell I'm a fan? ;) I also like how T-Mobile treats me over Verizon... the only bad thing is that the mobile Internet isn't as fast as it is with a CDMA phone, since T-Mobile is GPRS/EDGE.

Re:Too long to wait

[rossz]

The Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 looks great, but it's running Windows Mobile.

Re:Too long to wait

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit, i was sure that it was Symbian based like the past Sony Ericcson smart phones, I have the P1i and is Symbian based.

Re:Too long to wait

[rossz]

That's exactly what I've been looking for. If OpenMoko worked on something with a qwerty keyboard, I would be happy.

Re:Too long to wait

[phreakhead]

I'm pretty sure it's not the phone manufacturer that locks the phone down, it's the service provider. My T-Mobile Razr can do a hellof a lot more than my friend's Verizon Razr. T-Mobile is usually pretty good about letting you use your phone without having to pay extra for every little feature that other providers disable by default...

Re:Too long to wait

[rindeee]

Okay: Nokia N810. Done. Hear me out. I have an n810 (does EVERYTHING you ask for save for the built in unlimited cellular data plan) and a cheap-o Cingular phone with data service (MediaNet Unlimited for $15/mo) which lets me run everything via a Bluetooth connection to my Cingular phone over the data service. I have a VoIP carrier I'm very happy with that I use at home with a second line for my n810. Works fine over HSDP and works 'okay' over EDGE. Even the VTC over SIP works over HSDP. When I'm some place with WiFi, the n810 'prefers' that. Pidgin for chat. Full IMAP client. Bazillions of Linux apps. Sweet new interface with OS2008. I'm happy as a clam. Also worth noting that Nokia released OS2008 for the n800 which you can pick up brand new for only $250ish. I like the slide out keyboard on the 810 though...worth the price diff. Note that the GPS in the 810 is not the most accurate I've seen, but gets the job done.

Re:Too long to wait

[rossz]

Making the LG Voyager BREW-based was a manufacturer's decision, I thought. If not, then poo on Verizon (again) for letting their marketing division ruin what would otherwise be the best smartphone on the market.

Re:Too long to wait

[rossz]

I've actually considered going that route, but dislike having to carry around two gadgets instead of one. A really good smartphone will support putty so I can ssh into a system to do an emergency repair. If it's something so complicated that it's too much bother to use the tiny phone screen and keyboard, then I'll go home and get on a real computer. The idea is to use the phone to avoid having to interrupt something if at all possible. I have no intention of using it as a total replacement of a real computer. Nor do I want to carry around a laptop or tablet so that I can always be connected. A smartphone with a full (albiet tiny) keyboard is a compromise.

Re:Too long to wait

[rindeee]

If you bide your time a bit, the N810 is rumored to be coming out with WiMax and 3/3.5G built in. I haven't heard if it's going to include carrier branding/lock-in, but I'd venture to guess it will be available unlocked regardless.

Re:Too long to wait

[Anonymous Coward]

You want a Nokia N810. Linux, not at all locked down, wifi, qwerty, GPS.

- happy N800 user.

Re:Too long to wait

[AlistairGroves]

That's the same issue I have :( Hopefully they should be announcing the p5 (or whatever they will call it) later today, which is rumoured to be similar but running symbian.

Re:Too long to wait

[Anonymous Coward]

Tether an N810 to a cell phone

Re:Too long to wait

[blincoln]

The BlackBerry has some points in its favour as a smartphone, but there are some serious gaps:

- The web browser is terrible (no support for the "display: none" and "visibility: hidden" properties in CSS? Abysmal HTML table support? What were they thinking?). There is a third-party alternative (Minuet) which is even worse in most ways. Opera Mini will run on it, but you are sending all of your data to Opera by using it and because it proxies all connections you can't use it to access intranet sites if you have your BlackBerry set up to communicate with a corporate BES.
- Speaking of the BES, it's got a terrible architecture. Not the least of which is that all email is sent through RIM's servers, leading to the potential for the kind of half-of-the-world outage like what happened earlier this week. There are other problems too, like how the entire thing is written with a late-90s mentality where the only supported configuration involves all of the service accounts having Administrator/SA-type rights. Obviously this is not a concern for personal-only users.
- There are very few free applications, and most of the commercial apps are crap and/or sold by companies that probably won't even exist in a year or two to support them.

The trackball on the newer models is awesome, and the UI is generally very easy to use (which is IMO where something like Windows Mobile falls on its face). However, the iPhone UI is better, and from the screenshots it looks like Android is going to be at least as user-friendly if not more so.

Re:Too long to wait

[oik]

I've got the Nokia E70. It's got a fold out QWERTY keyboard and has S60 (to you can use Putty for SSH). Supports pop3 (not sure about imap) for email (I use this). It also can connect to a Blue Tooth GPS devices and Google Maps works fine on it. Syncs with Outlook nicely and you can (if you're feeling clever) install the Nokia Blackberry software on it and use that too.

I'm a sad fanboi for it I'm afraid. Only thing I'm waiting for is a decent NetHack port to S60 :)

Re:Too long to wait

[PitaBred]

Yeah, there are definitely some downsides. But for what I need it to do, it does it very well. The only apps I need are a few games, some media playing, Google's apps and... well, that's it. I have a laptop for serious computing. The Blackberry is only for dashing off emails and making sure nothing critical has blown up, as well as finding my way around a new town when I fly in. I can also use it as a modem for my computer without paying any more, so if I want a real web browser, I just turn on the laptop and hook it up through Bluetooth to the phone and I'm off surfing and don't have to worry about the embedded browser's foibles.

Really, I'm mostly a fan of T-mobile, and my Blackberry 8800 for now. The nicest thing about T-Mobile is that as soon as a nicer device comes along, I can just buy it and not worry about extending a contract or anything. It just works. And for now, the 8800 is the best device for what I need done.

Re:Too long to wait

[rossz]

There seems to be a whole lot of rumor and little hard facts on this phone. If the rumors are to be believed, it's going to be one hell of a nice phone. One of the rumors, however, said the phone is being retooled and won't be out until May or June.

As in "robot"!

[just_a_monkey]

Surprise? I read the headline and was expecting, finally, Google Android. And instead I get something about some mobile phone thingie. *DISAPPOINTED!*

Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[marcushnk]

I can testify that the Q9 is a piece of crap with Windows Mobile 6. very sluggish and clumsy feeling after coming from the slick responsive world of a Blackberry 8800.

Also I notice there isn't any "e-mail" icon on any of the screenshots...
Does this mean it's going to be another iPhone (can only get push mail from Yahoo) type device..

that would really suck if true. I _really_ hope that they're thinking of the enterprise with these things.. having to accept either RIM or MS devices only sucks balls when I know that Linux based OS's would be so much better.

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[Lonedar]

Well, the SDK for Android is already available, so my guess would be that even if Google doesn't include an email client (which, IMO, is unlikely) 3rd party clients would be easy to come by.

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[NatasRevol]

"iPhone (can only get push mail from Yahoo) "

Wow, that's among the most ignorant comments I've heard about the iPhone yet.

Try IMAP/IMAPS/POP/POPS/ExchangeIMAP

It's as good as any other phone for email.

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[marcushnk]

IMAP/IMAPS/POP/POPS/ExchangeIMAP none of which are PUSH MAIL.

True push mail doesn't require the remote unit to call the server if there is a new mail.

Yeah big deal I can POP3 from a mobile device, what I want is for when my mail server receives an update it finds and update my handset.
Immediately.

Do your research,oh glass house living stone thrower of great ignorance.

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[blincoln]

What do you expect? That type of functionality requires an interface between your mail server and your cell service provider. IE it will cost them money - probably a lot of money. Yahoo is probably the only company willing to fork over for it, since MS wouldn't want to support users of anything other than Exchange and Google was working on Android. I wouldn't be surprised if Android supported having mail pushed to it from GMail, but from other providers? It seems unlikely to me.
Anyway, is it even really that big of a deal? There are more important things than getting your email as soon as possible. If it's a time-critical notification, have it sent via SMS.

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[WhiteWolf666]

What do I expect?

Support for the IMAP IDLE standard.

Why should you be tied to any proprietary e-mail system, when most e-mail servers that support IMAP support IMAP IDLE?

Re:Q9 P.O.S with WM6, also no push e-mail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that's among the most ignorant comments I've heard about the iPhone yet.

Try IMAP/IMAPS/POP/POPS/ExchangeIMAP

As another replier said, that's not REAL push email on the iPhone. And you're calling someone else ignorant? You've obviously never used real push email.

It's as good as any other phone for email. Now you're really showing your ignorance. Only allowing one message deletion at a time is good? Only one photo attachment per message is good? No ability to save a photo from email is good? Non-functional cut-and-paste in email is good?

Blackberry, and even Windows Mobile, blows away the iPhone for email. The iPhone's overall UI is great, but its email client still sucks.

Yes I've seen it..

[biscon]

going trough the trash outside my block.. mumbled something about having seen tank ships on fire off the shoulder of orion or something..

Re:Yes I've seen it..

[TurinPT]

WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR?

Re:Yes I've seen it..

[walsingham1]

That's "attack ships". Sheesh, you'd have thought that /. would be a safe haven for BR quotes. :O

Re:Yes I've seen it..

[biscon]

Sorry dude, even ran it trough google :(

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[Anonymous Coward]

It is only open until someone decides not to publish the source (which google is free to not publish).
Then it is closed.

Smooth and Fast

[wiredlogic]

The UI was smooth and fast on my 486/33 running Windows 3.11. It's still quite capable running a no-frills X window manager and Pentium Overdrive. The Apple ][GS was reasonably snappy when it didn't have to access a drive. The only reason why a multi-hundred MHz device could be slow is programmer laziness.

Re:Smooth and Fast

[hey!]

In part it's laziness; in part it's architecture; in part its economics.

Economics means you have to have a product in user's hands if you want to make a difference. That's true even in open source. Things would have been much different for Linux if BSD hadn't had licensing issues. I myself, when faced with downloading either 386BSD or Debian 0.9 over a 28.8KBaud modem, went with Debian first because of uncertainty over the licensing. I wanted a "real" unix, but it turned out Linux was good enough.

Then there is architecture. Since economics means you have to get things done quickly, the most attractive way of doing that is standing on the shoulders of a couple of giants, who are each in turn standing on the shoulders of a couple of giants. This means that each increment of functionality tends to be accompanies by an exponential increase in code executed, roughly speaking. Since we had exponential increases in computer power for a long time, things seem more or less the same; there's little incentive to improve once things are good enough.

Believe me, I started out writing software for CPUs with sub megahertz clock speeds. The things we did to make things "fast" back then really wouldn't take a modern piece of software, with all its bells and whistles running on top of a modern system with its own bells and whistles (and recursively down to hardware), and make it exponentially faster. Crimes against maintainability were common back then, only most people didn't even know maintainability was a problem. In fact, I'd have a hard time saying that programmers were better back then; true, it was a more elite profession, and certainly it was an easier profession to know more or less every relevant thing about. But the flip side is that we know a great deal more about good practice, and even a tiny bit more about theory than we did back then.

Which brings us to the rub. Back in the day, bad programs were always the product of lazy programmers. Now it takes even a conscientious programmer considerable time to learn the ins and outs of some programming environment. Conscientious programmers still write better programs, all things being equal, but not necessarily on time.

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[Billly Gates]

As opposed to the alternative of .. sorry you can't own your own phone you bought and its all drm locked and you can't develop your apps and you need to buy all your $3 midi ring tones and proprietary apps from us only.. alternative?

It should be alright illegal to drm something you own. Imagine if our desktops were that restrictive? Why put up with it on your phone?

With the google phone I can at least download apps and develop my own.

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[meringuoid]

Since only the kernel is Linux, and that is the only GPL component, I'm not sure you can call it linux (it the distribution sense), or open.

Only the kernel of my Kubuntu system is Linux. It should perhaps be properly called Mozilla / OpenOffice.org / KDE / X.org / GNU / Linux.

software 4 andy

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha, the software for android is already available and is waiting for the devices

Google

[Teflon_Jeff]

It's about time. I would bet we start seeing hardware from them in the next two years, given some of their patents. Exiting times, when you have a non-evil corporation doing things in technology.

One word from looking at the photos of it

[hackingbear]

DISAPPOINTED!

Surprising to some, but we're expecting more

[kspurr]

I'll apologize in advance for using the royal we, but if you're surprised by the zippy Android interface on a 200MHz processor, you really should take a look at what the Pointui team has done with a PocketHAL based app sitting on top of... GASP.... Windows Mobile 5/6.
http://www.pointui.com/
Their interface runs nice and smooth on my T-mobile USA MDA (aka HTC Wizard) with a puny 195 MHz TI OMAP850. Please don't mistake this for me downplaying Android or saying I'm impressed with winmo. I'm just saying that we should keep waiting before we start getting surprised.

Speed is only one issue

[abigsmurf]

What matters most for me is reliability. I've a crap Orange SPV C600 that crashes all the time. Even the alarm function is buggy.

My experience with mobile implementations of linux hasn't been great, experiencing laggy software and random crashes (the GP2X even had an issue where it would randomly brick itself). A mobile OS which is a Java software layer on top of Linux on devices with limited resources makes me uneasy.

Dear Google

[dominious]

The word android is a combination of Ancient Greek andros and the suffix -oid, which literally means "in the form of a man."

Why, oh why, did you have to choose this name for your project since it does not have a form of a man AND confuses MILLIONS of /. readers everytime we get a headline about Android?! MILLIONS I SAID!

Thank you.

snappy

[Joe Snipe]

Am I the only one who thought snappy meant you didn't see the apple like animations?

BTW- slashdot: fix mobile.slashdot.org so us new centro owners don't have to fight with the webpage!

Re:snappy

[mattgoldey]

Yes. Yes you are.

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[kwabbles]

Android isn't "linux" just like Ubuntu isn't "linux".

Linux is and always has been just a kernel. Just because it's a kernel of an OS distribution doesn't make it any more "linux" than a device that has it as a kernel for a mobile OS distribution.

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[Cheapy]

Or MOOKXGNUL for short. I think it should be pronounced as "MOOK ZNULL".

200 Mhz != Slow

[Romwell]

I like how 200Mhz is "slow" for everyone. I mean, not so long (6 years) ago I had a 200Mhz Pentium II running windows 98. Now guess what - it did web browsing, video playing, basic gaming (CS, Starcraft) just fine. It wasn't slow at what it was doing. Now I don't really understand why technologies that perform well on 200Mhz processor should be something complicated to implement. The tasks are not that much different.

Re:200 Mhz != Slow

[Varun Soundararajan]

the tasks are same, but your desktop had to occupy a lot of space. You cant carry it everywhere. It required more than 100 watts of power and it required a bulky CRT Screen.

In your mobile you want all that in 3 inch screen. You recharge your mobile once in few days and should run with few watts of power that the battery picks up between recharges. Aint this all so different?

Re:200 Mhz != Slow

[Yetihehe]

I think GP meant we could run win98 on 200mhz processor. So 200mhz isn't really slow, only modern feature packed systems.

Re:200 Mhz != Slow

[Zelos]

Because your Pentium II 200Mhz can issue (IIRC) 3 instructions per cycle, whereas the ARM can only issue 1. Mhz is not a performance measure.

OMAP850 is Edge

[kybred]

The TI OMAP850 has an ARM9 in it for the application processor and an Edge radio. Everyone blasts Apple for coming out with Edge on the iPhone, but since this is Google it's OK?

Actually, for Edge, the OMAP1030 is the current TI solution, but it has only a single ARM9 for the radio and application processing.

Fixed link for OMAP1030

[kybred]

I got the wrong link for the OMAP1030

Re:Linux_kernel+BSD_libc+gJava != linux based open

[SanityInAnarchy]

I suppose it is a bit depressing, though, coming from something like OpenMoko, who would actually reject hardware because they couldn't get GPL'd drivers for it.

I mean, it's nice to have a little sandbox, sure. And it's better than nothing, and it seems a lot more likely to happen than OpenMoko or Qtopia, but it's still damned depressing, considering what might have been.

But is Android really better than, say, Windows Mobile? Think of it this way: I can download apps and develop my own for Windows on my desktop, but all other things equal, I'd rather have Linux, where I can also dig all the way down to the kernel source if I ever want to. (And yes, I have done that.)

I ran Wincows CE and Androiid side by side

[EmbeddedJanitor]

... both on ARM simulators (ie a reasonable comparisons). Android is about 5-10 times as fast as WinCE for equivalent tasks.

As others have posted, 200MHz is nothing to sniff at (unless you're throwing it away with bloatware). If Windows 3.11 could run snappily on a 50MHz 486 then there is no good reason for slow software on a 200MHz ARM.

One of the interesting outcomes of the speed difference is that this means Android based devices should have far better power figures than equivalent Windows CE devices.

Efficiency is something you have to design in early. The idea that you caan make a bloaty architecture efficient is broken. You don't get a gazzelle by shaving an elephant's legs.

Android Source code

[realdodgeman]

Google does have a GIT repo for all the open source components of Android. The kernel is here: http://git.android.com/

You can also read (here) that

Over time, more of the code that makes up Android will be released, but at this point, we have been concentrating on shipping an SDK that helps application developers get started. In short: Stay tuned.

Re:Android Source code

[Poorcku]

we will just have to sit and wait how google is going to fare with support for the big manufacturers. Oh wait, did i say support? I meant automated email reply. :)

It's just not *that* good a phone

[estarriol]

The iPhone would do a lot better in the UK market if it had any 3 of the following:-

• A 3.2 megapixel or better camera with flash
• A camera that can take VGA resolution video at at least 30 FPS
• A GPS, and SatNav software
• 3G

It has a lovely interface and some good features, but it's overall just overpriced and underspecced for the UK market. I looked at the iPhone, thought "sexy interface", then saw the lack of features and decided to go for an LG KU990 instead.

Re:It's just not *that* good a phone

[Inda]

* Sold in Tescos, Asda Walmart, Argos...
* PAYG.

Those two sum up the UK non-corporate market for me.

Re:It's just not *that* good a phone

[estarriol]

You think? The only people who buy phones in those places are teenagers IMO, and that's far from most of the market. Unless you have numbers to suggest otherwise?

In my private life, I don't know anyone who bought a phone anywhere other than Carphone Warehouse or a carrier shop and most are on a contract. The corporate market = only Blackberry to me.

Re:It's just not *that* good a phone

[phred75]

I actually thought the iPhone was shit until I finally saw the specs. Damn that thing is packing some nice power!

The CPU is an ARM1176 that features vector floating point capability and Jazelle technology (the CPU natively runs Java bytecode). It's also clocked anywhere between 524 and 667 MHz.

The graphics chip is a PowerVR MBX which is a very decent mobile 3D accelerator that is also found in some Windows Mobile devices as well. Apparently they (apple) have provided an interface to the accelerator via OpenGL ES. Lets hope the upcoming SDK is open enough to let us write some good games for that little fucker!

Apple is going to blow this...

[BILLinBCN]

Apple's current course will relegate iPhone to the same fate as the Mac OS. The excellent iPhone experience will be available only on the Apple hardware, which only Apple's core fans will have. Mobile phones (unlike PCs or MP3 players) are highly personal devices -- many people see them as a fashion accessory, or a projection of their personality and social status. The idea that a single product (or even a suite of conceptually similar products) will have ubiquitous appeal is silly. With their historic mindset, expect Apple to own only a tiny fraction of the mobile market. Apple is too closed - they only put their OS on Apple hardware - but in Mobile, there's far too many competitors. (Imagine if Mac computers competed against 4 other OS's in the PC space -- each far more able to innovate and learn from Apple's success than Microsoft. What a world it would be!) But unlike the PC space, Mobile has dozens of competitors, wildly innovative, learning and copying, releasing products annually, and covering divergent prices and styles. Read the excellent analysis at http://www.broodingsavage.com/journal/2008/2/13/apple-iphones-core-strategy-problem.html

Re:Apple is going to blow this...

[phoebusQ]

Apple's current course will relegate iPod to the same fate as the Mac OS. The excellent iPod experience will be available only on the Apple hardware, which only Apple's core fans will have. Music players (unlike PCs) are highly personal devices -- many people see them as a fashion accessory, or a projection of their personality and social status. The idea that a single product (or even a suite of conceptually similar products) will have ubiquitous appeal is silly. With their historic mindset, expect Apple to own only a tiny fraction of the digital music market. Apple is too closed - they only put their OS on Apple hardware - but in music, there's far too many competitors. (Imagine if Mac computers competed against 4 other OS's in the PC space -- each far more able to innovate and learn from Apple's success than Microsoft. What a world it would be!) But unlike the PC space, music has dozens of competitors, wildly innovative, learning and copying, releasing products annually, and covering divergent prices and styles.

No emotion chip yet, though

[glindsey]

I figure anybody with a phone running Android will quickly become the Commander of Data. ...Anybody? Anybody? Data? ...

Try the veal!

Nuts

[Jivecat]

I'm out of it... I was really hoping Google Android would be something that could walk around my house and help me find my keys.

It's a good platform

[phred75]

The Texas Instruments OMAP 850 SoC (System on Chip) is actually a pretty decent platform! I code a lot on the Windows Mobile platform and this chipset is featured in quite a few SmartPhones like the Samsung BlackJack and many PocketPC devices from HTC.

The OMAP 850 has an ARM926EJ-S CPU at it's core that features Jazelle technology (thats the J) that is capable of executing Java bytecode in HARDWARE! The E stands for Extended instructions which allow for saturated arithemetic type operations... very useful! The 850 chipset also includes hardware 2D acceleration but is useless unless there is on board video memory which hopefully they have SOME! This SoC also features the ARM MMU (memory management unit) so this primes it for multi-tasking OS's. I'm guessing the Linux Kernal runs natively while all apps run Java. I'm not sure if how ARM does Java instructions, they are pretty hush on that.

The big bottleneck in these devices is usually the bus speed so hopefully they've clocked the bus at the rate of the CPU.