Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Tries To Prevent Further Discovery
An anonymous reader notes the considerable irony in Microsoft asking for relief from further discovery in the Windows Vista Capable debacle. This is the lawsuit that was recently granted class-action status, and Microsoft wants the wheels of justice to stop while it appeals that designation. It's easy to see why Microsoft wants to prevent further digging around in their and their OEMs' email archives, with stories like this one from the NYTimes (registration may be required) revealing Redmond's highly embarrassing internal emails to a mass audience.
chair throwing contest starting in 10...
Why UNIX?
After, all that discovery is only producing documents which will torpedo their appeal of class action status.
Can't have that, can we?
They obviously need to hire the White House email administrators.
Problem solved.
I'm glad that I gave my Mum (uncontaminated with years of learning Windows) a Linux box, and that both my grilf and father have independently, and without any prompting from me, asked if I can fix their machines the same way (one's on Vista on a budget laptop - yes, I did warn her - the other's on XP "media centre edition". (It's got no TV tuner, surround sound, IR or anything else (even a big HD) that lends the machine to being a media centre, so I guess Dell must have wanted to puff the numbers for Unca Billy.)
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
I.e. it would cut even further into Vista sales.
and would jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill with class members.
What does this mean in normal human language, rather than lawyerspeak???
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
When I bought a laptop a few months ago, even the sales people were telling me how much Vista sucks (despite the fact that some of the stores didn't even sell XP laptops anymore so they were sure to lose a sale). When the people selling PCs are actively discouraging customers from buying newer systems with newer operating systems, Microsoft clearly have a problem... so I'm not surprised they want to hide their dirty laundry rather than have it exposed in the press.
That's what you get for allowing multi gigabyte PST files.
Oh, the sweet irony.
Deleted
The one thing Microsoft were always great at was marketing. Now, apart from the mess they've already got themselves into, they're still not seizing the great way out that's been presented to them. All they have to do is give away some vouchers that are only useful if you have Vista (that's basically how class action lawsuits end) and make a big splash out of how the only problems with Vista were the substandard hardware originally approved for it when in fact to get the power of Vista you need the latest kit. This is easy stuff. Anyone should see it. Why the hell would they think they're better of pretending that the crap performance people are seeing is Vista working properly? That isn't going to make them a penny.
You said it yourself, you are an IT professional.
<analogy>
If you bought a DVD player that, according to the label, would play anything and then it refused to play a DVD someone lent you would you be upset?
Probably.
The DVD you've put in contains half a dozen Divx files. Still upset?
Probably not, but most of my social group still do not understand why that would be.
</analogy>
I think John Q. Public isn't going to realise that undergoing a research project, prior to buying what is rapidly become just another consumer electronics device, is required. They will want what it says on the box.
While I agree with you from my own perspective as a software engineer that has to make similar recommendations, you also have to look at this from how a typical not-particularly-computer-literate customer would see it. They go to a store to buy a laptop with the latest Microsoft OS on it, and they have certain expectations ... that it will work at least as well as the last version of Windows they had, for one. Given what's been coming out of Microsoft in discovery so far, it seems to me that Microsoft knew they had a dog on their hands, and sold it anyway. They took a chance that nobody would call them on it and lost.
So far as sales go, this is probably gonna hurt. Me, I'm sticking with XP and Linux for the time being.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Depending on the situation:
Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help.
Whereas other times we see things like you put forward:
"Now what are those people complaining about? That they didn't research what "Vista Capable" entails? That they have no clue on how to do IT?"
Problems with windows really aren't windows problems, they are due to clueless users.
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
The point of the lawsuit is that if a product has a sticker saying "Vista Capable", then that should be all the research necessary.
Not running "Aero" is actually a pretty big problem. For most people the only noticeable change in Vista is the new pretty GUI. I know there's supposedly other new features, but that's the only one that sticks out to most people. So when it's not there...
If people would just "inform themselves", there would be no spam, no malware, no viruses, no security problems, ... Obviously that's not going to happen. It's hard enough for the average idiot to buy computer hardware without Microsoft lying to them.
Maybe not
Although I have not read the CLASS documents, this is coming from the consumer side. These are people that are not IT professionals. I am an IT professional, and when I did the very same research you did, I told every customer I had, "Look, what Vista is bringing to the table, you really don't need". The people you have working for you perform about 4 basic functions. a) They type up documents. b) They do basic spreadsheets, nothing fancy nothing remotely resembling complicated. c) They do e-mail correspondence. d) they do minor web research.
I told them 95% of your machines will require a memory upgrade and a new video card, since the on-board video system will not handle Aero and with parts and labor that is going to cost you about $300.00 per machine so that's going to be around $30K PLUS the upgrade licenses, training costs, etc. To a client, they all said, "And I would do this why?".
On the consumer side, all they see is "Vista Capable". Now if they had stickers like "Vista Capable but NOT vista premium Capable" that might have made consumers step back and say "Huh, what you talking about Willis?". Their own e-mail exchanges ( which I have read ) clearly indicate that they knew the marketing was going to confuse the crap about of your average consumer, that they knew the Intel video chip-set was "No Go" but they made the decision to push forward anyway, even after one of their own said, "I now have a $2100.00 e-mail machine", with no printer drivers, no Aero, none of the "WOW" that was being heavily advertised and promoted as the lunchpin of their upgrade sales strategy.Microsoft really really put shit out there that is now coming around to bite them in the ass, and deservedly so.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
Ack, bugmenot is not working. Here is a link to the article that doesn't require registration.
http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080309/1194753587951.html?.v=4
It's great but ultimately MS got money from your family so they got the dollar-votes...
The class is not limited to current members (who have already signed up as being pissed). Further digging and media time also tells those people that were suckered but did nothing that there is a class action and brings them into the action.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
On one hand, there's Microsoft keeping money saved on lawsuits and salaries, preventing anyone besides themselves (and probably few of themselves at that) from knowing just how much money they extract from you and trying to seem like a Good Corporate Citizen (TM).
On the other hand, there's your interest in saving the money that Microsoft has only been able to demand because they've been able to keep their pricing scheme secret from you.
Microsoft says that money in their pockets is more important than money in your pockets. Colour me unsurprised.
Windows, Linux, Mac OS are all operating systems meant to be used by users, and administrated by administrators.
They are NOT meant to administrated by users. What marketing says is one thing, reality is another. Most users do not possess or are willing to learn the knowledge required for even basic troubleshooting.
I'm not blaming them for that - i'm blaming them for not getting professional help. It's the same way i handle my car. I drive it (user), but i'll leave repais and checkups to qualified professionals (administrators).
"Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help."
Which version of Windows is this? And when is it coming out?
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
You're operating under the assumption that the case against Microsoft is valid. Since the case has not yet been decided, the court cannot operate under that assumption. During discovery the court has to weigh the cost to Microsoft against the probability that information germane to the case at hand will be revealed. Civil litigation frequently involves analysis of this kind.
If the court allowed every single discovery motion, cases would never be resolved and the cost of litigation would be higher than it already is. I'm not saying that this motion shouldn't be allowed, but the courts don't have the luxury of deciding the case first, then making discovery rulings on that basis.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Now what are those people complaining about? That they didn't research what "Vista Capable" entails?
No, they didn't. No one should have to. If it's capable of running the Vista that was advertised (all ads showed the Aero interface), it should be labeled Vista Capable. If it only runs a crippled version of Vista that is NEVER seen in an ad, except to be listed by name and price, it should be labeled "Vista Crippled." If it won't run common software and hardware, it should never have been released. Why the hell would anyone assume otherwise? Even people at Microsoft thought so.
That they have no clue on how to do IT?
Again, no they don't, nor should they have to. Not everyone who buys a computer works in an IT department. Most don't know much about the inner workings of computers, so they go by what the promotion says, that Vista is the best OS out there, and you can do all these wonderful things with it. Even many who do work for IT, even Microsoft employees, would not assume that drivers would not exist (and never be planned to exist) for common hardware and software. XP ran these devices and programs, and reasonable people would assume the heavily advertised upgrade to XP would too.
I don't understand the lawsuit - if they would've informed themselves, they wouldn't have had the problem.
If Microsoft hadn't intentionally misinformed the public, they wouldn't have had the problem. You shouldn't have to do research to refute the "facts" that companies
And the machines CAN run Windows Vista - all the editions. Just Aero and Moviemaker won't work without a proper graphic card, but that's not much of a problem.
It is a HUGE problem for a lot of people. Just because you don't use Moviemaker doesn't make it unimportant. Ditto the Aero interface.
It's like buying a DVD player for a TV you bought because it was labeled DVD-Capable, then finding out it will only play in black & white unless you get a DVD-Premium-Ready TV.
This sentence no verb.
"They are NOT meant to administrated by users. What marketing says is one thing, reality is another."
Fine, so again:
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
And, if you do need the experts, who should the administrator be for the average home user?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
"Linux is too difficult for the average person"
So the million people that bought Eee PCs are all above average?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Perhaps they won't get their money on the next round.
It's just getting interesting.
... who thought from the very beginning, having experience with minimum sys reqs and having the ability to see through marketing, that 'capable' meant: It can boot and nothing more?
And BTW (this rule always aplies...): always get informed about a product first before you buy it. I can't say this enough times. There are always products that may have downsides/flaws.
Here be signatures
"So the million people that bought Eee PCs are all above average?"
I guess I wasn't clear enough. People seem to be taking it as if I were making one of the claims in my post. No, those are conflicting claims I see windows supporters or linux detractors making. I say they can't have it both ways.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
If your company is publicly held, the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 imposes strict requires on document retention, including email. You can't just adopt a policy and stick to it. If your policy is not in compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley, you will be in big trouble should anyone sue you and ask for email or other documents that should have been retained.
Lets say a car company markets a gas powered car as an "electric motor ready" car. "Sweet" says I the consumer; next year when the company starts selling electric motors, I will be able to stick one in my car. Then next year rolls around, and the only electric motor that will fit in my "electric motor ready" car will only let me go 15mph; oh and the batteries will take up the rest of the car, meaning I can't carry any passengers or cargo. And not too surprisingly all of that was left off the "electric motor ready" car marketing material.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
You don't need to be an expert to use windows. But you got to be an expert in operating systems, linguistics, etymology, marketing and law to buy Windows systems. Got that?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
On the grounds that it makes my client look bad!
While I do agree that the correct interpretation of "capable" in this case is not exactly unique and obvious, I would say that the opinion of Microsoft employees (and I mean personal private opinions, not public and clearly marketing-oriented opinions) should be taken into account. The internal emails revealed that some quite relevant people didn't consider certain Intel chipsets Vista-capable, yet they slapped the sticker there to make Intel happy. In other words, machines were displaying on stores words that the people who developed the operating system didn't exactly agree with.
"Linux is too difficult for the average person"
/log in reminder for the bad of memory, and they're good to go. e-mail, web, installing software via synaptic package manger, all easy as pie. playing card games, using open office, all easy...
if you mean having a password to log in and install software, then maybe. If you mean 'switching to linux' then definitely. if you mean 'troubleshooting things that don't work' then they're in the same boat as when windows doesn't behave nicely. as far as 'using' linux goes, it's not hard at all. just tape up a password
the place they're likely to run into problems (most likely) is playing dvds, burning dvds, sending documents from open office to a ms word user. trying to install mpeg encoders, trying to rip dvds, trying to play back drmed audio, etc... but for a lot of users not one of those issues is going to come up. it really depends on who's using the computer and what for. 'the internet' in general works a bit better with linux, so many people who 'just want to use this internet thing' convincing them to use linux isn't that hard. as long as someone else sets it up for them.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
It's deceptive, if not outright false advertising.
Here's a car analogy for you. Imagine a large car company starts advertising a new model of car. The ads feature a soft-top coupe with aggressive sports styling, leather trim, 19" chrome wheels, big twin turbo v12 engine, 6 speed flappy-paddle gearbox, and is capable of 200mph.
You walk into the showroom, and the cars look like they do in the ads, or even better, but they are expensive. The salesman says "no worries" - this is the top model. There are much cheaper ones that are almost as good - you still get most of the features of the top model.
"Great", you say. "I'll take one!"
The salesman tells you that they are all in shipping crates out the back, so you can't look at it now, but they will deliver it to you.
The next morning you find a new car in your driveway. It looks like a Hyundai Excel, has a 4 cylinder engine, 14" wheels with plastic hubcaps, cloth trim, and a 4 speed manual gearbox.
You take it back to complain, but the salesman says "How did I mislead you? It has most of the features of the top model - seats, wheels, a steering wheel, seatbelts, a handbrake, lights, a horn, a gearbox, and it drives on the road. And it's capable of doing 200mph, if you can get it into a cargo plane that moves that fast..."
For the DVD and Vista comparison and to kill the lies and prevarications, DVD ready does not mean it can only play the DVDs at half speed. People have a expectation of performance, M$ advertises it's products showing it performing at a certain level, and basically lies, when those products can not perform as advertised.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I was painfully truthful, I laid out the entire upside/downside. To give an example, one was an accounting firm w/ +-130 desktops. They are not in an AD environment, they are in an Edir environment. They are all running XPsp2 with one common desktop user for every machine, that way each user can work at any vacant desk, they get the same set of app's. E-Mail client loads from the server, no local PST files, nothing makes the machines unique and although it took a lot of trial and error, we made their tax-prep, time & billing software all run with only user level security.
Now at some point there yes new machine will have ONLY Vista, but hopefully by then Vista will be on sp2 and be something worth using.
I still see absolutely no reason for Aero in a business environment. These are not play toys, these are tools for employee's to use and as such Aero provides no value, only additional resource requirements, just generally slows everything down and gets in the way. As to UAC it is pretty pointless as these machines are locked down hard and I have encouraged these companies to implement IT policies that say in nice terms, You install software, you are fired, thats what we pay the IT people for and you are specifically not authorized to do so. Yeah its draconian but these companies were pushed to that extreme by stupid users who tried to or installed any bit of virus spreading, mal-ware installing, root-kitting bit of garbage from places like Facebook, Yahoo, MySpace
These are NOT personal computers they are the companies computers. You want a utility, an additional tool, then make the business case, put it in writing and in about 99% percent of the cases you get it, after its been vetted by the IT guys. When down time costs upwards of $200.00 per hour, per employee, company owners tend to be a tad touchy about this stuff.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
Perhaps if you then told them that the 20th century has been over for nearly a decade, they might ponder on why older versions of Windows have a 19th century security model.
Ignore this signature. By order.
Nowadays the speed advertisements make even less sense as Windows is preinstalled on practically everything and the only people installing manually are on old hardware.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
"Actually yes, the argument you're making"
Not the argument I am making... The argument I see people make when they want to say linux is too difficult for the average person but windows is easy for the average person.
People make the other argument I put down in other circumstances of course.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
MSFT lower pricing on Vista misses the point entirely, as the NYT article so eloquently points out. Vista causes too many bad experiences. Perhaps with SP1. I tried to use it on my work system so that I could show off our own Vista-ready capabilities (http://www.pcdoctor-community.com/pcdblog/2007/10/02/vista-begone-my-windows-xp-upgrade/). Terrible experience that resulted in my "upgrade" back to XP. Ask any of the big OEMs about how much Vista they are shipping into the enterprise. I have, and the answer is next to nothing. And I bet they are getting killed with support calls because of MSFT's misssteps.
Easier once it's set up, in my experience.
The problem is, there's a lot of "gurus" out there who are one-trick ponies. They know Windows well, and that knowledge is a source of respect and free dinners for them. They're the ones who keep the average punter tied to the monopoly wheel.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."