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Microsoft Tries To Prevent Further Discovery
An anonymous reader notes the considerable irony in Microsoft asking for relief from further discovery in the Windows Vista Capable debacle. This is the lawsuit that was recently granted class-action status, and Microsoft wants the wheels of justice to stop while it appeals that designation. It's easy to see why Microsoft wants to prevent further digging around in their and their OEMs' email archives, with stories like this one from the NYTimes (registration may be required) revealing Redmond's highly embarrassing internal emails to a mass audience.
chair throwing contest starting in 10...
Why UNIX?
After, all that discovery is only producing documents which will torpedo their appeal of class action status.
Can't have that, can we?
They obviously need to hire the White House email administrators.
Problem solved.
A family member needed a new laptop. Dell (business side) with XP filled the bill. Since I could not get them to go 0$X, this was the next best thing. The bonus is that a dual core machine with a GB of memory will fly on XP. My tech support will be less. I had Windows Me once, so I see where this is going. As my MS machines die, Apple will get more sales.
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
I.e. it would cut even further into Vista sales.
and would jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill with class members.
What does this mean in normal human language, rather than lawyerspeak???
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
When I bought a laptop a few months ago, even the sales people were telling me how much Vista sucks (despite the fact that some of the stores didn't even sell XP laptops anymore so they were sure to lose a sale). When the people selling PCs are actively discouraging customers from buying newer systems with newer operating systems, Microsoft clearly have a problem... so I'm not surprised they want to hide their dirty laundry rather than have it exposed in the press.
That's what you get for allowing multi gigabyte PST files.
Oh, the sweet irony.
Deleted
If, somehow, discovery ceases- can I now use this case to prevent litigators from finding out potentially damaging things about me?
The one thing Microsoft were always great at was marketing. Now, apart from the mess they've already got themselves into, they're still not seizing the great way out that's been presented to them. All they have to do is give away some vouchers that are only useful if you have Vista (that's basically how class action lawsuits end) and make a big splash out of how the only problems with Vista were the substandard hardware originally approved for it when in fact to get the power of Vista you need the latest kit. This is easy stuff. Anyone should see it. Why the hell would they think they're better of pretending that the crap performance people are seeing is Vista working properly? That isn't going to make them a penny.
You said it yourself, you are an IT professional.
<analogy>
If you bought a DVD player that, according to the label, would play anything and then it refused to play a DVD someone lent you would you be upset?
Probably.
The DVD you've put in contains half a dozen Divx files. Still upset?
Probably not, but most of my social group still do not understand why that would be.
</analogy>
I think John Q. Public isn't going to realise that undergoing a research project, prior to buying what is rapidly become just another consumer electronics device, is required. They will want what it says on the box.
Bait and switch.
While I agree with you from my own perspective as a software engineer that has to make similar recommendations, you also have to look at this from how a typical not-particularly-computer-literate customer would see it. They go to a store to buy a laptop with the latest Microsoft OS on it, and they have certain expectations ... that it will work at least as well as the last version of Windows they had, for one. Given what's been coming out of Microsoft in discovery so far, it seems to me that Microsoft knew they had a dog on their hands, and sold it anyway. They took a chance that nobody would call them on it and lost.
So far as sales go, this is probably gonna hurt. Me, I'm sticking with XP and Linux for the time being.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Depending on the situation:
Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help.
Whereas other times we see things like you put forward:
"Now what are those people complaining about? That they didn't research what "Vista Capable" entails? That they have no clue on how to do IT?"
Problems with windows really aren't windows problems, they are due to clueless users.
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
The point of the lawsuit is that if a product has a sticker saying "Vista Capable", then that should be all the research necessary.
Not running "Aero" is actually a pretty big problem. For most people the only noticeable change in Vista is the new pretty GUI. I know there's supposedly other new features, but that's the only one that sticks out to most people. So when it's not there...
If people would just "inform themselves", there would be no spam, no malware, no viruses, no security problems, ... Obviously that's not going to happen. It's hard enough for the average idiot to buy computer hardware without Microsoft lying to them.
Maybe not
Although I have not read the CLASS documents, this is coming from the consumer side. These are people that are not IT professionals. I am an IT professional, and when I did the very same research you did, I told every customer I had, "Look, what Vista is bringing to the table, you really don't need". The people you have working for you perform about 4 basic functions. a) They type up documents. b) They do basic spreadsheets, nothing fancy nothing remotely resembling complicated. c) They do e-mail correspondence. d) they do minor web research.
I told them 95% of your machines will require a memory upgrade and a new video card, since the on-board video system will not handle Aero and with parts and labor that is going to cost you about $300.00 per machine so that's going to be around $30K PLUS the upgrade licenses, training costs, etc. To a client, they all said, "And I would do this why?".
On the consumer side, all they see is "Vista Capable". Now if they had stickers like "Vista Capable but NOT vista premium Capable" that might have made consumers step back and say "Huh, what you talking about Willis?". Their own e-mail exchanges ( which I have read ) clearly indicate that they knew the marketing was going to confuse the crap about of your average consumer, that they knew the Intel video chip-set was "No Go" but they made the decision to push forward anyway, even after one of their own said, "I now have a $2100.00 e-mail machine", with no printer drivers, no Aero, none of the "WOW" that was being heavily advertised and promoted as the lunchpin of their upgrade sales strategy.Microsoft really really put shit out there that is now coming around to bite them in the ass, and deservedly so.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
Ack, bugmenot is not working. Here is a link to the article that doesn't require registration.
http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080309/1194753587951.html?.v=4
In short, it would be faster to print all the emails and shred them.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
The class is not limited to current members (who have already signed up as being pissed). Further digging and media time also tells those people that were suckered but did nothing that there is a class action and brings them into the action.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Can someoen please explain to me the "irony" that the original poster makes reference to?
"What kind of music do pirates listen to?" -Paul Maud'dib
"Yeeeaaarrrrr n' Bee!!" -Stilgar, Leader of Sietch Tabr
On one hand, there's Microsoft keeping money saved on lawsuits and salaries, preventing anyone besides themselves (and probably few of themselves at that) from knowing just how much money they extract from you and trying to seem like a Good Corporate Citizen (TM).
On the other hand, there's your interest in saving the money that Microsoft has only been able to demand because they've been able to keep their pricing scheme secret from you.
Microsoft says that money in their pockets is more important than money in your pockets. Colour me unsurprised.
Windows, Linux, Mac OS are all operating systems meant to be used by users, and administrated by administrators.
They are NOT meant to administrated by users. What marketing says is one thing, reality is another. Most users do not possess or are willing to learn the knowledge required for even basic troubleshooting.
I'm not blaming them for that - i'm blaming them for not getting professional help. It's the same way i handle my car. I drive it (user), but i'll leave repais and checkups to qualified professionals (administrators).
"Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help."
Which version of Windows is this? And when is it coming out?
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
You're operating under the assumption that the case against Microsoft is valid. Since the case has not yet been decided, the court cannot operate under that assumption. During discovery the court has to weigh the cost to Microsoft against the probability that information germane to the case at hand will be revealed. Civil litigation frequently involves analysis of this kind.
If the court allowed every single discovery motion, cases would never be resolved and the cost of litigation would be higher than it already is. I'm not saying that this motion shouldn't be allowed, but the courts don't have the luxury of deciding the case first, then making discovery rulings on that basis.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Problems with windows really aren't windows problems, they are due to clueless users.
Users are not a problem.
Problem is that Microsoft thinks they can redefine the meaning of word "capable".
Now what are those people complaining about? That they didn't research what "Vista Capable" entails?
No, they didn't. No one should have to. If it's capable of running the Vista that was advertised (all ads showed the Aero interface), it should be labeled Vista Capable. If it only runs a crippled version of Vista that is NEVER seen in an ad, except to be listed by name and price, it should be labeled "Vista Crippled." If it won't run common software and hardware, it should never have been released. Why the hell would anyone assume otherwise? Even people at Microsoft thought so.
That they have no clue on how to do IT?
Again, no they don't, nor should they have to. Not everyone who buys a computer works in an IT department. Most don't know much about the inner workings of computers, so they go by what the promotion says, that Vista is the best OS out there, and you can do all these wonderful things with it. Even many who do work for IT, even Microsoft employees, would not assume that drivers would not exist (and never be planned to exist) for common hardware and software. XP ran these devices and programs, and reasonable people would assume the heavily advertised upgrade to XP would too.
I don't understand the lawsuit - if they would've informed themselves, they wouldn't have had the problem.
If Microsoft hadn't intentionally misinformed the public, they wouldn't have had the problem. You shouldn't have to do research to refute the "facts" that companies
And the machines CAN run Windows Vista - all the editions. Just Aero and Moviemaker won't work without a proper graphic card, but that's not much of a problem.
It is a HUGE problem for a lot of people. Just because you don't use Moviemaker doesn't make it unimportant. Ditto the Aero interface.
It's like buying a DVD player for a TV you bought because it was labeled DVD-Capable, then finding out it will only play in black & white unless you get a DVD-Premium-Ready TV.
This sentence no verb.
Here's the definition:
Now, i often see computers advertised as "gaming ready". Does that mean that if they can't run Crysis in 1920x1200 at full details they are also fraudulently advertising them?
Vista Ultimate/Enterprise have BitLocker - to use it, you'll either need a TPM module or an USB flash stick - are all machines shipping without TPM/USB stick not Vista capable?
"They are NOT meant to administrated by users. What marketing says is one thing, reality is another."
Fine, so again:
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
And, if you do need the experts, who should the administrator be for the average home user?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
"Linux is too difficult for the average person"
So the million people that bought Eee PCs are all above average?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
It's just getting interesting.
"Users are not a problem."
Just to be clear, I was not making that claim, just pointing out that I see it made when it suits certain people.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
... who thought from the very beginning, having experience with minimum sys reqs and having the ability to see through marketing, that 'capable' meant: It can boot and nothing more?
And BTW (this rule always aplies...): always get informed about a product first before you buy it. I can't say this enough times. There are always products that may have downsides/flaws.
Here be signatures
"So the million people that bought Eee PCs are all above average?"
I guess I wasn't clear enough. People seem to be taking it as if I were making one of the claims in my post. No, those are conflicting claims I see windows supporters or linux detractors making. I say they can't have it both ways.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
Lets say a car company markets a gas powered car as an "electric motor ready" car. "Sweet" says I the consumer; next year when the company starts selling electric motors, I will be able to stick one in my car. Then next year rolls around, and the only electric motor that will fit in my "electric motor ready" car will only let me go 15mph; oh and the batteries will take up the rest of the car, meaning I can't carry any passengers or cargo. And not too surprisingly all of that was left off the "electric motor ready" car marketing material.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
You don't need to be an expert to use windows. But you got to be an expert in operating systems, linguistics, etymology, marketing and law to buy Windows systems. Got that?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I just wanted to point out the "narrow" and "long" parts with "experiences,etc." If we used those words alone, then Vista is a very long and narrow OS, unlike others, even other MS OSes, that were much broader (in capability and compatibility).
-Aegis Runestone-
On the grounds that it makes my client look bad!
Not saying it's right, but computer software was never particularly useful when your computer just hit the bare minimum system requirements.
It's been a foregone conclusion since sometime in the mid 90s that to run a program reasonably that you have to be at least one step up from the listed processor and have an additional measure of ram as well. That's bare minimum.
What that specifically entails has changed, it used to be 16mhz or so was enough and 1mb of ram. Now it's quite a bit more, but my point is that software sellers have always been misleading consumers in this manner since before most people would be willing to even touch a computer for fear of bringing down modern society.
Got it.
But when it comes to virus and spyware issues, claims bubble up that you may need to be expert to safely run the thing even.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
While I do agree that the correct interpretation of "capable" in this case is not exactly unique and obvious, I would say that the opinion of Microsoft employees (and I mean personal private opinions, not public and clearly marketing-oriented opinions) should be taken into account. The internal emails revealed that some quite relevant people didn't consider certain Intel chipsets Vista-capable, yet they slapped the sticker there to make Intel happy. In other words, machines were displaying on stores words that the people who developed the operating system didn't exactly agree with.
> Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help.
Which one is easier to keep updated, both system and apps?
Which one needs activation?
Which one mounts volumes partitioned with other OSs?
Which one comes with different crippled apps for each model so each time you change pc you have a different dvd maker or media player app?
Which one has a different way for each model to backup the system?
Which one lets you reinstall old packages, move an installation on a different media, switch to the newest release of the os with a single boot?
Which one gives you more crashes? (app crashes)
Is dealing with the register easier than editing config files?
Windows is easier than linux if you started with it, and most people started with windows.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
"Windows is easier than linux if you started with it, and most people started with windows."
Personally, I find linux easier and I did windows before linux. Of course, I was doing fortran on punch cards to start and my first personal work was on a TRS-80 Model I. 16K ram 4K rom iirc.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
I told them 95% of your machines will require a memory upgrade and a new video card, since the on-board video system will not handle Aero and with parts and labor that is going to cost you about $300.00 per machine so that's going to be around $30K PLUS the upgrade licenses, training costs, etc. To a client, they all said, "And I would do this why?".
You answered their question in the previous paragraph:
I told every customer I had, "Look, what Vista is bringing to the table, you really don't need".
First you told them there was no benefit, then you told them there was huge cost. And then, big surprise, none of them went for it.
But were you truthful? Is there no benefit? Perhaps if you'd told them Vista moved the security model of Windows into the 20th century, they might have seen more value in an upgrade?
But sure even then, if you've already got XPSP2 and locked it down reasonably well, and are subscribing to an A/V product with rootkit detection, and you run everyone as normal users, then yeah you've already done most of the legwork to get to the benefits that Vista has out of the box with its forced run as user and driver signing on by default, and yeah an upgrade wouldn't be worth much and would cost a fair chunk. So it would be right to conclude you don't need to upgrade... but at the same time, there is no reason to avoid it when replacing the hardware.
"Linux is too difficult for the average person"
/log in reminder for the bad of memory, and they're good to go. e-mail, web, installing software via synaptic package manger, all easy as pie. playing card games, using open office, all easy...
if you mean having a password to log in and install software, then maybe. If you mean 'switching to linux' then definitely. if you mean 'troubleshooting things that don't work' then they're in the same boat as when windows doesn't behave nicely. as far as 'using' linux goes, it's not hard at all. just tape up a password
the place they're likely to run into problems (most likely) is playing dvds, burning dvds, sending documents from open office to a ms word user. trying to install mpeg encoders, trying to rip dvds, trying to play back drmed audio, etc... but for a lot of users not one of those issues is going to come up. it really depends on who's using the computer and what for. 'the internet' in general works a bit better with linux, so many people who 'just want to use this internet thing' convincing them to use linux isn't that hard. as long as someone else sets it up for them.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
The funniest and the saddest line in the NYT article came at the end, "Now that Microsoft faces a certified class action, a judge may be the one who oversees the fix. In the meantime, where does Microsoft go to buy back its lost credibility?" This qualifies as news. Microsoft still has credibility to lose?!?
It's deceptive, if not outright false advertising.
Here's a car analogy for you. Imagine a large car company starts advertising a new model of car. The ads feature a soft-top coupe with aggressive sports styling, leather trim, 19" chrome wheels, big twin turbo v12 engine, 6 speed flappy-paddle gearbox, and is capable of 200mph.
You walk into the showroom, and the cars look like they do in the ads, or even better, but they are expensive. The salesman says "no worries" - this is the top model. There are much cheaper ones that are almost as good - you still get most of the features of the top model.
"Great", you say. "I'll take one!"
The salesman tells you that they are all in shipping crates out the back, so you can't look at it now, but they will deliver it to you.
The next morning you find a new car in your driveway. It looks like a Hyundai Excel, has a 4 cylinder engine, 14" wheels with plastic hubcaps, cloth trim, and a 4 speed manual gearbox.
You take it back to complain, but the salesman says "How did I mislead you? It has most of the features of the top model - seats, wheels, a steering wheel, seatbelts, a handbrake, lights, a horn, a gearbox, and it drives on the road. And it's capable of doing 200mph, if you can get it into a cargo plane that moves that fast..."
It's sad that so many people misunderstand your post. I'm completely with you: I manage a few Windows machines for family and friends, but I know how to secure them. They're 100% clean, but if they want to install something it's time to call jawtheshark and she may refuse ("No, those smilies are bad for your computer"). I've also been introducing Ubuntu Linux for a few select people. The administration work is still mine. It really is no different from Windows for me. (The problems are different, but problems there are)
To go for the bad car analogy: I know squat about my car and I have an "administrator" take care of my troubles. He's called "a mechanic". ;-)
So the answer is: yes; you need expert skill... Your own or the one you bought...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
For the DVD and Vista comparison and to kill the lies and prevarications, DVD ready does not mean it can only play the DVDs at half speed. People have a expectation of performance, M$ advertises it's products showing it performing at a certain level, and basically lies, when those products can not perform as advertised.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I was obviously unclear, but it surprises me.
Didn't you see:
"Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?"
Didn't you see that I put forward two opposing claims that people make about windows ease and linux difficulty?
Not saying you or anyone else who didn't get my post are at fault. With so much misunderstanding, I figure I was unclear even though I thought I was.
Can you help me pin down where the lack of clarity was so I don't make the same mistake again.
I have pointed this issue out more than once in the past. This is the first time with so much misunderstanding involved iirc. And the funny thing is, I thought that I had done a better job this time before all the confusion popped up.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
I was painfully truthful, I laid out the entire upside/downside. To give an example, one was an accounting firm w/ +-130 desktops. They are not in an AD environment, they are in an Edir environment. They are all running XPsp2 with one common desktop user for every machine, that way each user can work at any vacant desk, they get the same set of app's. E-Mail client loads from the server, no local PST files, nothing makes the machines unique and although it took a lot of trial and error, we made their tax-prep, time & billing software all run with only user level security.
Now at some point there yes new machine will have ONLY Vista, but hopefully by then Vista will be on sp2 and be something worth using.
I still see absolutely no reason for Aero in a business environment. These are not play toys, these are tools for employee's to use and as such Aero provides no value, only additional resource requirements, just generally slows everything down and gets in the way. As to UAC it is pretty pointless as these machines are locked down hard and I have encouraged these companies to implement IT policies that say in nice terms, You install software, you are fired, thats what we pay the IT people for and you are specifically not authorized to do so. Yeah its draconian but these companies were pushed to that extreme by stupid users who tried to or installed any bit of virus spreading, mal-ware installing, root-kitting bit of garbage from places like Facebook, Yahoo, MySpace
These are NOT personal computers they are the companies computers. You want a utility, an additional tool, then make the business case, put it in writing and in about 99% percent of the cases you get it, after its been vetted by the IT guys. When down time costs upwards of $200.00 per hour, per employee, company owners tend to be a tad touchy about this stuff.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
I do some admin work for friends and family myself. These days, I try to do as little gratis support as possible for those who will not give linux a serious try.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
At this stage of the case, the court needs to make the guess. Based on what's already been revealed it is hard to say that (a) there is no case -or- (b) there is no further information.
Any judge who was to try whitewash this one would be comitting professional suicide.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Perhaps if you then told them that the 20th century has been over for nearly a decade, they might ponder on why older versions of Windows have a 19th century security model.
Ignore this signature. By order.
Perhaps if you then told them that the 20th century has been over for nearly a decade, they might ponder on why older versions of Windows have a 19th century security model.
:)
I said 20th century not 21st on purpose. I don't consider not running as an administrator a new 21st century idea. So, yes, I think we should *all* ponder why XP still has a 19th century security model.
Nowadays the speed advertisements make even less sense as Windows is preinstalled on practically everything and the only people installing manually are on old hardware.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
Yes, they were all sold to residents of Lake Woebegon.
Terrible error.
You should not be allowed to post comments on Slashdot if you don't know some basic things about the software industry. For example, since April 1, 1994 Microsoft Owns the Catholic Church.
Also, the U.S. government is NOT a subsidiary of Microsoft. They are both subsidiaries of the same organization, "Do Evil if You Can". For example, see Remarkable occurrences involving the Bush family.
The one thing I find so great about administrating Linux for my family is the ability to solve issues over the phone with a few select command line instructions.
Instructing my father to add another DSL provider to a laptop consisted of "type 'sudo pppoe-config'" (I think; there was a bit of tab-completion there) and a few cp and ln lines, along with the instructions on how to select either one. He may have failed to understand most of it (I explained him what each step did, but I don't know how much he found relevant at the time), but it was over quickly and reliably; doing the same through a GUI you don't even see is much harder.
Ignore this signature. By order.
Yes. No doubt at all.
And, if you do need the experts, who should the administrator be for the average home user?
At best, a geeky friend who can fix the problems. If not, the local computer store. Though many people still throw away XP computers with perfect hardware because the shop would charge them more than the computer's worth to de-infest it.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
"Actually yes, the argument you're making"
Not the argument I am making... The argument I see people make when they want to say linux is too difficult for the average person but windows is easy for the average person.
People make the other argument I put down in other circumstances of course.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
"At best, a geeky friend who can fix the problems."
Yes, but surely linux would be easy enough with a geeky friend as well...
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
"For what it's worth, not everyone misunderstood your point."
I did see that and thank you for noticing, but either most did, or I misread most responses.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
I don't particularly care about Windows, but fraud is certainly illegal.
how to invest, a novice's guide
MSFT lower pricing on Vista misses the point entirely, as the NYT article so eloquently points out. Vista causes too many bad experiences. Perhaps with SP1. I tried to use it on my work system so that I could show off our own Vista-ready capabilities (http://www.pcdoctor-community.com/pcdblog/2007/10/02/vista-begone-my-windows-xp-upgrade/). Terrible experience that resulted in my "upgrade" back to XP. Ask any of the big OEMs about how much Vista they are shipping into the enterprise. I have, and the answer is next to nothing. And I bet they are getting killed with support calls because of MSFT's misssteps.
The philosophical question of the day. What is Microsoft protecting more- it public "image" or it treasure trove of bullshit (that is so 80's- the new word is spin)? They may want to reuse some of this for Windows 7 as oppose to actually do some actual software engineering.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
That would be great, if even a fraction of a percent of your average PC owner even knew about, or even gave a shit about Linux. I'm amazed at how people come up with these statements when it's been obvious for years that Linux was never intended to be a mainstream OS. It just so happens that the devs are trying to go that route, but it's still far from being a major superstar competitor in the home desktop market. (I'm not bashing linux, I think it's great, personally, but this is just the truth). Honestly, your average home desktop user just goes and buys what they have from work or whatever Best Buy or Dell is selling cheap that week. They're not in to the whole OS Factions War or even give a shit about file formats or the Acid compliance of a browser. So what makes you think they're going to turn around and give their money to devs for putting out Linux versions of their software?
Never monkey with another monkey's monkey.
It is the internal bickering which is most interesting. Even MS executives didn't like the results.
While it would be illegal to deliberately delete emails while under an investigation where those emails may be (and have been) subpoenaed, one must remember, MS may be hoping for the "WhiteHouse" defense: "Oh, you wanted emails from when? " I'm sorry our email retention policy deletes emails from our servers after 2 months. They are also purged from all backups in order to limit our exposure to indefinitely retained emails." Didn't the Bush White House use that excuse as a reason for not having any emails for an earlier time period requested in an investigation?
Would it be "unreasonable" since MS isn't a financial institution, to institute (or officially claim to) a policy that deletes old emails after a certain date by default? Could they claim that it was standard business practice and use that as a defense for why discovery might find no emails for a given period?
How gullible are our courts? Or would MS have to be proven to have willfully and deliberately deleted evidence?
Hmmmm....
"I see a lot of IT deparments that have lost focus on what their real jobs is"
Me 2. How can I hire yu?
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This is a great discussion!
Yes it is draconian and it is not without cause. Last year they had an employee who managed to get hold of the local administrator PW for his workstation. He managed to install some bit of crap that just took the network to its knees for about 4 hours while it when tried to infect the whole shop. Fortunately AV was in place ( he disabled his as the local administrator policy allowed that ) and kept it contained. He didn't fess-up as the IT team went on the search to find the problem, 4 hours later problem was solved, but that cost the company in round numbers ( 4 * 130 * ( average billable rate for the firm is around $200.00 per hour) so call it $100K right in the middle of tax season. Now you can play that number down, but it was 4 hours lost that cannot be made up since clients don't want to be told, "Uhmm sorry, we had a little problem today that put us a half a day behind the power curve and now we have to put you on extension". After the dust cleared, he was terminated the next day.
At accounting firms, during tax season, anything less then 99.9% uptime is pretty much unacceptable.
On the subject of Aero.
I would suggest that having 30 tasks open and being worked simultaneously does not represent you average business user. I have been in this business for coming up on 30 years, and I have yet to see a business user have more the 4 or 5 programs running at once. If you are a finance type, all your math is done on a calculator the provides a tape, because you attach it to the work papers. And I agree that there are undoubtedly a few widgets that make sense for some business users, but I cannot really see that many.
IT's job in general...
I agree with many of your points. Some IT departments have lost sight of the goal of providing a "Useful & Reliable" set of tools for a person to accomplish the tasks that they are assigned. I think that "Useful & Reliable" is something that must be defined by all three components, Management, Users and IT:
Hopefully you find a reasonable balance and everyone is happy, but as the old saying goes, "You can make some of the people happy all of the time, or all of the people happy some of the time, but you cant make everyone happy all the time!"
Good god I wish I could build a bomb-proof workstation AND give the user all the flexibility they want! Unfortunately this magical machine has yet to arrive anywhere. Not in Windows, Not in Linux, not in OS-X, not even with old dumb terminals hooked up big iron. Who's closer? I don't even try to guess anymore. Linux is pretty damn secure, but the dearth of business applications is killing it on the desktop. Windows, well I always feel like the little Dutch Boy with my finger in the dike, except the dike is made of Swiss Cheese and all the other wholes are covered, but with tissue paper. OS-X well I feel secure, it looks really great but the problem is the same, albeit not as bad, as Linux, not enough business applications, but its getting closer faster, then Linux is by a long shot.
EDirectory... Hmm think AD except far better and it runs on pretty much every platform you can buy.
My summary is what Management wants are happy productive employees. IT wants happy computers. Somewhere in the middle is a happy employee w
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
It has been a while since I bought a car, but do people now actually buy cars without test driving them? In any case, I agree with you. I think what people don't know about computers leaves them open to deceptive advertising much like what people don't know about cars can burn them at a used (or new) car lot.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
They probably don't, but the point I was trying to make with that detail is this: How often do you see a low-spec computer with Vista Home Basic being demoed?
In my experience, the demo machines are all mid-high spec running Aeroglass. But there's the cheaper version of the computer, with most of the features you see here, in a box I can get you from out the back. In this case, the equivalent would be clicking around on a Vista Ultimate Demo on the demo computer for a while (test driving the top model demo car) and then buying the cheaper version which there isn't a demo model for at the moment...
This is the kind of monumental blunder that should get the CEO fired!
I have to disagree that average desktop users are buying whatever is cheap that week. Many still are, but I have noticed that increasingly, people are getting fed up with how unreliable computers seem to be, and the simplistic viewpoint of the average user is that "PCs suck, my next computer is a Mac." Seriously, I'm not saying this to advocate Macs, although they are my primary desktop system, Linux and FreeBSD being my server-side OSes. It's just my impression that everywhere I look, people are complaining about how slow and clunky PCs are, and when they say "PCs suck," they don't realize that what they should actually say "Windows sucks." It's not the hardware's fault. It's simply executing the instructions it's given, and it's garbage in, garbage out, the garbage being Windows. That's why your average PC user, who doesn't know the difference between the box that is the computer and the OS that runs in it, blames the PC. They complain specifically about viruses and adware filling up their computers, and how maddeningly slow things are. Then you need to print out some stupid piece of paper and you have to sacrifice a goat to get it done. That's the PC way. Things run extremely slowly and unreliably because there's a ton of garbage running in the background that they don't know how to control or get rid of. This is slowly driving your average users towards Mac computers. Linux won't cut it for most people because they don't understand computers or UNIX, and they don't want to. A Mac is a real marketable alternative that you can get now. These are not cheap; in fact, you have to make more of an investment. However, it seems pretty much unanimous that you get what you pay for. And that's why the Apple store near my house is increasingly crowded every time I pop my head in for a quick look.
If it has a DivX sticker on it then you'd be upset when the disk doesn't play.
No sig today...
Easier once it's set up, in my experience.
The problem is, there's a lot of "gurus" out there who are one-trick ponies. They know Windows well, and that knowledge is a source of respect and free dinners for them. They're the ones who keep the average punter tied to the monopoly wheel.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
I would suggest that having 30 tasks open and being worked simultaneously does not represent you average business user. I have been in this business for coming up on 30 years, and I have yet to see a business user have more the 4 or 5 programs running at once.
Oh I'm not claiming to be a multitasking god... 4-5 'programs' is probably not far off the mark. But I'll have 5+ browser windows open, and 5+ folder windows open, and a few notepad instances, then email, etc... so I'll be at 15-20 windows before I start working, and even if they're minimized they all stack up in the task bar.
As to the rest, I certainly don't dispute that there is a time and place for 'maximum control for maximum uptime with minimum risk'; I just think that half the IT shops out there seem to think the time is 'always' and the place is 'everywhere', while the other half wishes they had 'maximum control' but just can't seem to get there thanks to all the fires they're wasting their time putting out.
There seems to be a pretty small sliver in the middle that's got the balance right for the industry they are in.
It seems we mostly agree.
EDirectory... Hmm think AD except far better and it runs on pretty much every platform you can buy.
Right! eDirectory, the Novell NDS productline/evolution. Thanks, that makes sense now.
If you believe putting "Vista Capable" on something that does indeed run Vista, but doesn't run the whole whoosh-whoosh warrants a class action lawsuit for "fraud", the...
*I realize I am arguing with the Hivemind*
Oh well, never mind.
I do not know how car ads work in the US, but in much of the EU your analogy would be flawed because the advert would say "From £14,000" and in small print would say "Model shown is the flubar CDX model with optional alloy wheels and CD player, which costs £17,000".
But were you truthful? Is there no benefit? Perhaps if you'd told them Vista moved the security model of Windows into the 20th century, they might have seen more value in an upgrade?
The security model for Windows has been in the 20th century for some time, it's just that Vista is the first time it's been enforced on software vendors.
If the OP's clients depend on any software which doesn't account for this and hasn't been updated to, Vista is actually a step back because it means that they're going to have to go out of their way to castrate the improved security in order to do any work.
The slashdot community has been saying how much Vista sucks for how long now? There was even a topic today about how some nvidia cards were benchmarked better under Ubuntu (and Solaris for that matter) than they do under Vista - and these are "Vista Capable" cards. Anyone buying a Vista machine should already know what they are getting themselves into. The Microsoft employees who were bitching in their emails about how they now have a "$2100 email machine" are even more retarded. These guys were in the loop on the whole crappy driver thing and they STILL fell for their own trick. Fools.
The sad thing is, Microsoft's OS market share won't even feel this law suit. When all is said and done, they will still have 90%+ of the OS market (or whatever they have). Something like this should wake up the consumer and corporate worlds to see they have been paying out the ass for trashy software - but it won't. This isn't their first lawsuit that should wake the world up to their shady practices and shoddy coding and it won't be the last. When Windows 2016 comes out, and it forces you to pay 3 years salary for new hardware because it won't run on your "old" machine, people will do it all over again. Microsoft isn't wrong by thinking their customers are mindless sheep.
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
4 ~ 5 business apps. My arse. 10 is a realistic minimum.
A common scenario:
Outlook, with two or three emails open at any one time.
Acrobat Reader. One, perhaps two docs open.
AS/400 Client Access (Personal Communications) probably two sessions open (two windows).
Word Excel AND Powerpoint open, with documents.
At least two, probably more business Web applications, which means Internet Explorer. Maybe more for the odd "personal-use" web page.
Two custom line of business applications.
Of course, in the background: Anti-virus/Anti-spyware. All the background startup applications from legit applications. Mobile phone sync application (Blackberry or Nokia), etc.
During month close, this is a realistic scenario. And it's not that much different at other times.
XP SP2 handles this fine with a good amount of memory. Which is one or two gig. I doubt I'll see this performance from 2G of memory with Vista.
BTW: Aero is actually a benefit to Vista, most of the desktop drawing tasks and handed off to the graphics card, not consuming CPU time. So for business computers, get the minimum (cheapest?) available video card that supports Vista "X" premium. Which probably means Intel on-board card with dedicated memory.
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
I think that is a part of it. But I can tell you that even when encouraged to switch, by someone who now knows linux better than windows, many resist but still want the free support.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
... was that I looked at a Vista machine at a store and discovered that you can't reduce the Vista partition below 50% of the drive. Partition Magic and other tools don't work on Vista partitions and you have to use the built-in Microsoft tool.
All of my machines are dual boot (or multiple boot) with at least one Linux and possibly up to 3 (two Fedora versions plus Ubuntu), and I normally reduce Windows to less than a quarter of the drive. (I mainly use Windows to run an old version of Quick Books and the current year's tax program, neither of which run on Linux.)
I know what I'm getting with XP. Vista is a step into the unknown, but I know there will be problems.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with that - I still help my friends who are more comfortable with Windows, and I bought my dad an iMac, so I support that as well.
Thing is, for those friends who just want email/web/office, I generally set them up with Linux and they're much happier. No viruses, no crashes, and because I can SSH in easily, I can tell them what's going on when they get confused.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
>>Ballmer is clearly re-tossing the deck chairs on RMS Vis^Titanic.
>What does RMS has to do with Vista?
You can see the exponential symbol, so I'm pretty sure it's this RMS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square
"is wrong, since you're not."
Uh-huh.
"Second, you fail to understand the issue."
Uh-huh.
"Third, you'd do well in stopping now, since the hole you're digging is only getting deeper."
Oh noes! How will I get up?
"Fourth, you appear to be a moron."
Oh noes!
"See the above three points for why, including the third, which you are soon about to break, again."
So, I'm a moron because I would "...do well in stopping now, since the hole you're digging is only getting deeper"? That's just moronic!
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..