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Microsoft Submits Windows 7 for Antitrust Review

An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has submitted the follow-up to Windows Vista to the committee that oversees its US antitrust compliance, to ensure the operating system is meeting the terms of the company's agreement with the government. According to last week's status report on the US antitrust case, Microsoft "recently supplied" the Technical Committee (TC) with a build of the OS, code-named Windows 7, and the TC will "conduct middleware-related tests on future builds" of the software. The move was revealed in papers filed in the US District Court for the District of Columbia. Those on the TC so far are the only ones privy to what the follow-up to Vista will look like, and Microsoft is mum on details of the software. But recent company moves and revelations hint at what can be expected from the software, which is due for release in late 2009 or early 2010. Lets hope Microsoft learns some lessons from the "Vista Capable" dilemma!!"

166 comments

  1. dupe by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Informative

    didn't we just have an article nearly exactly like this a few days ago?

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    1. Re:dupe by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 4, Informative
    2. Re:dupe by calebt3 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes

    3. Re:dupe by ParaShoot · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Slashdot posted a dupe?!

      You must be new here.

    4. Re:dupe by wizardforce · · Score: 5, Funny

      blatant dupery like this lends credence to the idea that the editors are merely shell scripts that cowboyneal hacked together 15 mins before chips'n'dips and never bothered to update any of them...

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    5. Re:dupe by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      As per http://slashdot.org/faq/tags.shtml, the "dupe" tag should never appear in the list - it's internally used by the system to apparently do something with dupe articles (someday it may be set to automatically pull dupes down, I guess)

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    6. Re:dupe by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 4, Funny

      Think about it, if editors were shell scripts :

      There would be no dupes (auto-check on urls within stories)
      There would be no obvious spelling mistakes (auto-spell check)
      There would be no annoying and inflammatory 'commentary' attached to stories.

      Unless of course they were shell scripts cleverly designed to appear human, like me.

    7. Re:dupe by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 1

      Ahh, the "CowboyNeal Test". Alan Turing is turning in his grave.

    8. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "didn't we just have an article nearly exactly like this a few days ago?"

      yes, but this one is written much more favorably...

  2. Leak? by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

    How on earth does this kind of thing not get leaked? Dozens of people with copies of the software, masive portable storage devices commonplace...

    1. Re:Leak? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently they don't send it to Academy members...

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Leak? by grasshoppa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...each copy with secret water marks throughout the software, traceable back to the folks that signed the NDA that promised the left AND right nut should they spill the beans.

      ya, can't imagine how that doesn't happen more often.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    3. Re:Leak? by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      Yeah I'm sure they would be happy to see that Microsoft gave them a copy specifically tailored for submission to the antitrust committee. That's exactly what microsoft wouldn't be allowed to do.

    4. Re:Leak? by somersault · · Score: 1

      I don't see why not as such a (presumably) early stage in the software's development where it's important not to have any leaks.

      Plus, who the fsck actually wants to run Windows 7 anyway? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, just like I never tried any betas of Vista..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:Leak? by DAldredge · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would love to have a copy of Windows 7.

    6. Re:Leak? by Tom9729 · · Score: 2, Funny

      > Plus, who the fsck actually wants to run Windows 7 anyway? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, just like I never tried any betas of Vista..

      I need some new coasters...

    7. Re:Leak? by HeroreV · · Score: 1

      How difficult would something like that be to remove if they had 3 copies to compare?

    8. Re:Leak? by Ron_Fitzgerald · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I also have good feelings about Windows 7. Vista had really good features but failed in lot of ways for me. I really feel that Microsoft recognizes Vista's faults, listened to the real critics of it and this will show as such in the new version.

      This is not a sarcastic statement.

      --
      ~ Ron Fitzgerald
    9. Re:Leak? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So would I. It's funny how so many people who have never touched Vista bash it. On the appropriate hardware (yes it's a beast hardware wise) it's quite nice. Then again I think OS X is nice on my Macs, and Linux is really nice on the couple of boxes I have it on as well.

      Ah well. Wannabe geeks who treat their OS of choice as if it were a religion are at least amusing, don't you agree?

    10. Re:Leak? by rocketPack · · Score: 5, Funny

      For as much Windows and Microsoft bashing that goes on in this community, it sure is funny to see how eager people are to get their hands on their latest beta.

      "Microsoft Beta" is a double negative, but I wouldn't count on the end result being positive...

    11. Re:Leak? by Kalriath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, certain organisations have always had access to Windows source code (educational institutions, governments) on a "look, but don't touch" basis - after signing massive NDAs. So really, if it were going to happen, it would have happened already (more than once)

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    12. Re:Leak? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      I really feel that Microsoft recognizes Vista's faults, listened to the real critics of it and this will show as such in the new version.

      Hey, could you email with the name of the medication you're taking? I'd like to give it a try. It seems to work a lot better than the stuff my therapist gives me.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:Leak? by friedman101 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just drop your computer in a lake.

    14. Re:Leak? by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      Microsoft seems good at fixing existing problems that customers raise. The problem is that, in so doing, they tend to introduce more unforeseen problems.

    15. Re:Leak? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Informative

      I really feel that Microsoft recognizes Vista's faults, listened to the real critics of it and this will show as such in the new version.

      You mean, the way they did with XP? And 2000?

      I haven't installed Vista, but XP did still have tons of Microsoft propaganda -- I mean, informative tips -- while you waited, telling you all the great things about the OS you're installing. So let me guess: You feel that Windows 7 will be "faster, more secure, more fun," etc? You know, the way XP was?

      And this is a sarcastic statement!

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    16. Re:Leak? by somersault · · Score: 0, Troll

      I never touched the beta, but I have used it (helping out friends/clients) on some lesser machines, up to a 2.2Ghz core 2 duo with 2GB of RAM, and it runs like a pig even there. It's just a joke needing that many resources to manage your resources.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:Leak? by rucs_hack · · Score: 1

      If the alternative is Vista, then yes, I'd like to get Windows 7. If only because the Kernel is apparently faster.

      My next pc purchase will be later this year. My chances of getting XP for it diminish as the months wear on. I'm not even slightly happy about this. I've used Vista, and I don't like it.

      Around this point people start thinking 'ooh, I'll type in "use Linux", and feel all smug'.

      Well, just as soon as you can make all the games companies release Linux native versions of their stuff, I'd go for it. Until then, well, I've played Tux Racer once already, so I guess I'll stick with windows as my primary desktop machine.

      (disclaimer: all my developer work is on Linux, but I seperate my day to day computer usage from my programming activities, my Linux machine is headless).

    18. Re:Leak? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      For as much Windows and Microsoft bashing that goes on in this community, it sure is funny to see how eager people are to get their hands on their latest beta.
      People do it for a variety of reasons, some for the ability to brag about it. Some because they want as much advanced warning of what MS has in store for us as they can. A few probablly want it because they actually want to use it but I strongly suspect they are in the minority.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    19. Re:Leak? by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Windows ME was perhaps the worst version of windows to be release. They followed it up with XP which is possibly the best.

      Lots of people are hoping that Vista was just a stopgap and windows 7 will have all the cool stuff promised (virtual registry, WinFS and other stuff I'm sure other people can remember)

    20. Re:Leak? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Around this point people start thinking 'ooh, I'll type in "use Linux", and feel all smug'.

      Well, just as soon as you can make all the games companies release Linux native versions of their stuff, I'd go for it. Until then, well, I've played Tux Racer once already, so I guess I'll stick with windows as my primary desktop machine. Interesting, so your desktop machine is primarily for gaming then, and the latest Windows games, from the sound of it?

      Most of my home use is photography and video, for which I find Macs better and easier to use. At work, I currently use XP for my desktop, but its oddities are causing me to try out Ubuntu. All my servers are Linux/Solaris, hence the lack of interest in XP.
      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    21. Re:Leak? by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      but, why don't you use linux?

    22. Re:Leak? by somersault · · Score: 1

      Someone doesn't know what 'troll' means, or has never used Vista..

      --
      which is totally what she said
  3. I think they've already got a solution worked out. by vancondo · · Score: 5, Funny

    The problem with saying hardware is 'vista capable' is that its not entirely clear what they mean. I have it on good authority that a room-full of MS lawyers have come up with a new term for selling hardware that the newest version of Windows may or may not run on:

    "Supports windows 7" means that if you put the software box on top of the hardware, the hardware will not physically crumble to the ground.

    --
    http://vancouvercondo.info

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    -
  4. Since, you RTFD maybe you can save us some time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Did we care then?

  5. Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by inTheLoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As usual, M$'s software lags hardware by five to seven years. Expect a continued messy transition to 64 bit computing that will favor Intel, the other monopoly laggart.

    This is a lot like the transition from 95 to XP. How many times did Bill Gates declare the "death of DOS" or "16 bit computing"? The messy steps between included 98, NT, ME and W2K. It took that long to marginalize competing software vendors but the real cost should be measured in intentionally wasted hardware. Non free and free software competitors continued to produce technically superior software such as DRDOS, Lotus, Word Perfect, OS/2, BeOS and Apple, of course. The competitors all won the race to 32 bits by years but M$ used it's market position to shove them all aside. This is the lesson they thought they learned then.

    Free software has handed M$ it's ass for 64 bit software and architecture independence. Almost as soon as there were 64 bit platforms GNU/Linux and BSD were running on it, Alpha, AMD, Intel, Sun and more exotic stuff. Lesser computers are also working. Thanks to the fantastic work of GNU it's just a compiler switch.

    The problem for M$ is that we have all learned the same lesson and are sick of it. People are not going to just go along with things. They are not going to throw their hardware out again for another buggy version of Windows. Free software works all of it better now, so Windows 7 is just as dead in the water as Vista was. The industry is losing money, and their trust in M$ is gone.

    --
    No calls now, I'm ...
  6. Re:I think they've already got a solution worked o by calebt3 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I didn't think anything could hold together in the pure evil emanating from Windows CDs...

  7. Microsoft's revenue schedule by Alsee · · Score: 4, Funny

    Windows XP was released Q4 2001,
    Windows Vista was released Q1 2007,
    Windows 7 is scheduled for Q4 2009,
    Windows 8 is scheduled for Q1 2011,
    Windows 9 is scheduled for Q4 2011,
    Windows 10 is scheduled for Q1 2012.
    Windows 11 and 12 are scheduled for Q2 2012,

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    1. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by click2005 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Windows 13, 14, 15, 16 & 17 in Q3 2012...

      By Q1 2014 Windows will be on version 791.

      1 week later Windows Update will begin a constant update process that never ends.
      It will continue to consume all resources and hardware added to all nearby hardware until it achieves critical mass.
      These individual Windows 'Mersenne' installations will because of gravity begin to drift towards each other, merging
      into one giant super-bloat. This will become the next version of windows nicknamed 'Neutron'. This will slowly begin
      to assimilate all matter on Earth followed by the rest of the solar system (except Mercury... Steve 'Sweaty' Ballmer needs
      somewhere Hell-like to vacation) and then the Orion Arm. The final version of Windows will be a super-massive black hole
      know as Singularity. Unfortunately Singularity will never get past beta status as anyone attempting to use it's UI (known
      as Hawking Radiation) will be sucked in. Around this time, the EU will finally get around to fining Microsoft $11 billion
      for monopoly violations and destroying the planet and its competition.

      Linux will continue to exist and evolve into a single particle of anti-matter floating through space until it crashes into Vger.

      --
      I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
    2. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In 2012 windows will mess up and try to start a war like how the WOPR tried to in wargames.

      The Windows for Warships was just the first step some hacker form the out side of the usa may try to take our war systems down buy go after windows systems or by trying to trigger a NMCI / EDS lock out and no one in the navy has the admin right to fix with calling the help desk. If they can take out the help desk then they can kill navy ships at sea.

    3. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by r_jensen11 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Windows XP was released Q4 2001,
      Windows Vista was released Q1 2007,
      Windows 7 is scheduled for Q4 2009 Ignoring fact-checking and that Vista was more than 2 years past due; if Windows 7 comes out on time, wouldn't that mean that there is virtually no incentive for companies to switch to Vista? I know that corporations are very conservative and rarely jump ship to a new technology when it's untested, but seeing how much/little Microsoft's done to smooth out quirks with Vista, methinks that companies wouldn't have many more problems if they jumped over Vista to Windows 7, and it would also cut down on re-training employees from XP->Vista->7 to merely XP->7.
    4. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by Maxmin · · Score: 1

      The fact that Windows 7 is coming out soonish gives credence to the rumour that it's a re-dressed Vista with lower hardware requirements.

      --
      O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
    5. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2, Interesting
      wouldn't that mean that there is virtually no incentive for companies to switch to Vista?

      There's no incentive now. Releasing Windows 7 won't change that.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    6. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by i_liek_turtles · · Score: 0

      Could one of those years be the year of the Linux desktop, or will we have moved onto something more obscure by then?

    7. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Ok, so they're submitting Windows 7? Knowing that we start with Windows 3.x, we should probably assume:

      Windows 3.x = the first windows that didn't completely AND utterly suck. Windows 3.11 only completely sucked.

      Windows 4.x = Windows NT/2000/XP.

      Windows 5.x = Windows 95/98/ME

      Windows 6.x = Windows Vista

      My guess, anybody care to confirm?

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    8. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by perlchild · · Score: 1

      I remember windows 5 being NT(code name cairo, so what became 2000, but announced in 1997), 95 was windows 4(both were worked on at almost the same time, but had different code lineage)
      No idea which one was 6, but vista could make it, if you include all the features they took out. It's funny that vista is the first version of windows that included features NOT on the 1997 list, so it could be the 6.0/

      P.S. the actual version numbers were included in release documents from microsoft at one point, we shouldn't need to assume.

    9. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      Win2000 and XP both have 5.x version numbers. Look at any MS DLL.
      95/98/ME is a different family. The current Windows versions are
      all descendants of NT.

    10. Re:Microsoft's revenue schedule by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
      (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

      C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>
  8. Re:I think they've already got a solution worked o by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Funny
    WARNING: SPOILERS!

    I didn't think anything could hold together in the pure evil emanating from Windows CDs... That's exactly how Harry Potter killed Lord Voldemort.
    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  9. Wrong attitude by calebt3 · · Score: 1, Informative

    Lets hope Microsoft learns some lessons from the "Vista Capable" dilemma!! Let's not. Consumers have to have a limit to the abuse they are willing to take somewhere (probably hovering near infinity, but every little bit helps).
    1. Re:Wrong attitude by rob1980 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, God forbid a company should reform its bad behavior and be better corporate citizens. Can't have that, can we?

    2. Re:Wrong attitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      For the past 20 years Microsoft has been doing everything they can to screw the competition. Not only has it ended up costing computer users around the world money, it has held back innovation and progress all so they could lock-in their customers. I don't want them to reform. I really hope they produce more crap and keep on doing so until people stop using their software. A few anti-monopoly lawsuits wont change this. The retailers are as locked-in as the computer users themselves. When Microsoft fails and dies we will finally have a real choice on what OS to buy our computers with without the Microsoft Tax.

  10. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're wrong about world perfect- MS Office has always been the premiere office suite. Have you seen Office 08? I don't get why Sarah Connor was trying to destroy The Turk-- it's obvious that Skynet won't start from a chess AI, it'll start when Microsoft adds just one too many features to Office and Visual Studio, and they become self-aware. The VS2008 installer is frankly terrifying with all the features flicking by in the installer animation, some of them are so insane and impressive.

  11. leak by Iceykitsune · · Score: 1

    bittorrent leak in 5, 4, 3, 2....

    --
    GENERATION 24: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    1. Re:leak by calebt3 · · Score: 1
  12. Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Think about it... If Vista proves Microsoft can't control the market, and force people to buy it, problems solved!

  13. how will they test 3rd party apps behaviour? by BroadbandBradley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A big part of antitrust is windows overrides default browsers and such, and forces it's own bundled applications on the user by making it difficult to discover how to make your software run well on the OS when it's not clearly documented (secret hooks only available to MS).

    If windows media player is able to achieve better performance through some type of black magic that other media players don't have access to, how will this be tested on a pre-release secret platform? Same with browsers, office suites, or any other MS application.

    Have these copies been distributed with the complete source code so secrets can be uncovered? Even if that was the case, who would pay for the man hours to sift through millions of lines of code? Even with a full source code audit, the released binaries could be completely different anyhow.

    I think the only solution to restore fair competition is massive fines that go directly to marketing and development of competing platforms. Paying consumers who have been locked into the MS trap still leaves them trapped.
     

    1. Re:how will they test 3rd party apps behaviour? by wizardforce · · Score: 1, Insightful

      fines don't mean anything when years of monopolistic business practices are punished by taking about a week's worth of cash from MS. the best solution of them all is to just break the fscking company into many different pieces and make damn sure they don't reassemble like AT&T did. when you have the company producing the OS competing with another that makes applications with another that handles gaming etc. the OS company *could* try locking people into their OS with APIs but the software fragment wouldn't have any of it after all they're competing for resources here.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    2. Re:how will they test 3rd party apps behaviour? by unfunk · · Score: 1

      the problem with the "let's break up Microsoft into its various components" argument is that the Windows and Office divisions make so much money that they prop up the other divisions. It was aaaaages before the Hardware division made money, but now I wouldn't give up my MS keyboard and mouse if you paid me to. The XBox and XBox360 are proven money sinks too, for the time being. This is not to mention really cool shit like Live Labs and Microsoft Research...

    3. Re:how will they test 3rd party apps behaviour? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      the problem with the "let's break up Microsoft into its various components" argument is that the Windows and Office divisions make so much money that they prop up the other divisions.

      I don't see why that is a problem. Dozens of promising companies have been purchased by Microsoft and their innovative ideas then never saw the light of day. If MS is using money from their monopolies to prop up unprofitable enterprises in other markets, then it is a good thing for those businesses to be forced to profit or fail on their own as it will drive them to innovate.

  14. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    As usual, M$'s software lags hardware by five to seven years. Well, thank God for that. Can you imagine if Vista used MORE available resources?

    I think that the drive for 64-bit will not come from MS or Intel, but from the memory manufacturers. When regular people start needing/wanting over 4GB of RAM, they won't have much choice but to go 64-bit.
    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  15. Does it matter any more? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From the business pages of the Wall Street Journal, it appears that many countries in the EU are ditching Microsoft and going with Linux.

    So one wonders if this will all become moot at some point, as the invisible hand of the marketplace chooses a wiser solution.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Does it matter any more? by hany · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup, market will choose a better solution. But it takes sooooooooo looooooooong. :/

      --
      hany
    2. Re:Does it matter any more? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      From the business pages of the Wall Street Journal, it appears that many countries in the EU are ditching Microsoft and going with Linux.

      It is possible. Choosing to walk away from Windows or at least MS product lock-in formats is the closest thing the EU has done to an effective anti-trust remedy against MS.

      So one wonders if this will all become moot at some point, as the invisible hand of the marketplace chooses a wiser solution.

      The point of monopolies is that for any given user/consumer the monopolist can make the wisest decision be to choose them, regardless of the real merits of the products offered. A monopolist undermines the free, capitalist market by introducing artificial problems with competing products. Some are very simple such as IE. In a normal, free market IE would fail because it is slow, fails to properly render Web standards, fails to implement the last 6 years of standards at all, is a huge vector for malware, and has lagged behind competitors on features for huge amounts of time (tabs, spellcheck, adblocking, etc.). IE, however, has dominated the market because it is bundled with Windows, and not even easily removable so it is the one target Web developers can count on being on almost every computer. Further it intentionally breaks with standards so that developers in their own best interests must also break standards (thus making all other browser seem as if they are broken). The invisible hand of the market is unlikely to ever correct this problem. The only thing that has really made any difference is the threat of punishment by the EU council.

      I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the "invisible hand" of the market will not stop antitrust abuse, which is why there are antitrust laws in pretty much every country in the world. Without such regulation, economic models show all markets slowly consolidating into small number of giant conglomerate companies, and the situation becomes akin to feudalism, rather than capitalism. Even socialism does not have quite so many drawbacks as the government at least theoretically works in the best interests of the people and can in some ways be held accountable to them, whereas markets dominated by monopolists have just as little incentive to give consumers what they want and work only in the interests of profit and the subset of the people who are majority shareholders

      Monopolies in regulated capitalist markets (pretty much all of them in the world today) can be broken up by government action. Monopolies in unregulated capitalist markets (or where the government is easily bribed) end when wealth disparity and quality of life becomes so bad that the people violently revolt and forcibly redistribute wealth, usually accompanied by a lot of needless death, suffering, instability, and injustice.

  16. You keep using that word by SpeedyDX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Dilemma. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    1. Re:You keep using that word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, sir, just went on my Friends list, not only because you pointed out the misuse, but because you did it in a funny non-pedantic way. Congratulations. :-)

    2. Re:You keep using that word by cromar · · Score: 1

      The Oxford American Dictionary entry for dilemma really cracks me up :) Apparently the misuse of the word can be traced back as far as the 17th century...

  17. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by calebt3 · · Score: 1

    When regular people start needing/wanting over 4GB of RAM, they won't have much choice but to go 64-bit 640K should be enough for anybody.
  18. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by CastrTroy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    VS 2008 is quite amazing. Mind you, the last one I used extensively before the upgrade was 2003. We upgraded because 2003 was dying under the weight of our huge project (it wasn't really that big, relative to some other stuff). VS 2008 ads a ton of features, while increasing the speed by about 100 times. I think they should put that team to work on Windows. Maybe they'd actually come out with a quality OS.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  19. Code Names? by Roadmaster · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, back when Windows had lame numbered version numbers (Win95, NT 4.0) it had jazzy codenames like Chicago, Cairo and whatnot. Now, that the official releases have jazzy official names (Vista, XP, whatnot) codenames have turned into... WINDOWS 7? so what gives?

    1. Re:Code Names? by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Funny

      so what gives? Chicago, Detroit, Nashville, Daytona, Cairo, Whistler... all city names. And now, Windows 7.

      It's either the sad descent of a formerly energized company into a plodding circle of despair, or... an ominous hint of sinister plans to take over and rename a major city.
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Code Names? by the+brown+guy · · Score: 1

      like Canada?

      --
      Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
    3. Re:Code Names? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sinofski leads Windows Org now and he used to lead Office. Office code names for a while where Office 9, Office 10 etc.

    4. Re:Code Names? by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean Windows 8?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Code Names? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were going to codename it "Hardly Heroin", but the MS lawyers blocked it because their #1 competitor already has the name "Heroin".

    6. Re:Code Names? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sinofski doesn't believe in codenames. Next version of Office is codenamed "Office 14". My product joined Office recently; our current release was grandfathered in but our next release uses only the name+number. I fully expect that the subsequent release will be called "product_name 15" instead of its 'correct' next version number.

    7. Re:Code Names? by pnevin · · Score: 1

      Everyone now gets to make their own codename for Vista. Pick an adjective.

    8. Re:Code Names? by ari_j · · Score: 1

      It's neither. What's actually going on is that Microsoft has unbundled the code name components of Windows. Now, you can get a value-added code name add-on pack. Once you install the add-on, you will have Windows 7 "BFE", properly named after a city as you'd expect and wish you had received with the core OS like you did in prior versions.

    9. Re:Code Names? by utnapistim · · Score: 1

      So, back when Windows had lame numbered version numbers (Win95, NT 4.0) it had jazzy codenames like Chicago, Cairo and whatnot. Now, that the official releases have jazzy official names (Vista, XP, whatnot) codenames have turned into... WINDOWS 7? so what gives?
      Welcome! Welcome to City 17 ... It's safe here ...
      --
      Tie two birds together: although they have four wings, they cannot fly. (The blind man)
    10. Re:Code Names? by mnoel2 · · Score: 1

      At the well-known company where I code, several code names have escaped and become public knowledge. A notable example of one similar case from another company is described at the Wikipedia page for an older Power Macintosh, whose codenamesake (Carl Sagan) sued Apple.

      Management doesn't even want to take the risk of someone even threatening to sue. Code names are now usually limited to public place names (which are inoffensive and lack a body to sue over the use of the name) or Product ${VERSION} + 1. The last major project I worked on had a four-syllable code name, but no one ever used it; it was easier just to refer to it by its one-syllable version number.

  20. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    You give Bill far too much credit - he has never said anything memorable. Not one single utterance.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  21. "Vista Capable" dilemma by blind+biker · · Score: 1

    It's a "dilemma" only if you look at your customers as cash cows and don't give a damn about their interests.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  22. That's just an abbreviation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's code name is Seven of Nine. Microsoft is the Borg, and she is HOT!

  23. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by pyrbrand · · Score: 1

    The drive will only come when software is readily available that takes advantage of 64-bits. 64-bit Windows has been around for years now (2005 for XP and 2003 for Server). Software and device driver developers are the ones lagging their feet, not the OS folks. But really, for most people, what will 64-bits give you? More of your memory used up by 64-bit pointers? It's only applications which need a large address space that will hugely benefit, and so far there are few consumer apps with those requirements.

  24. Re:Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapo by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

    Hmmm..

    1. Buy a crappy CP/M hack and sell it to a large mainframe manufacturer
    2. Make deals with "compatible" makers, lock them into per-CPU contracts
    3. Make new crappy operating system, hype it all to hell, and use your per-CPU contracts to make yourself a virtual monopoly
    4. ???
    5. Profit!
    6. Get hosed by DOJ for being an abusive monopoly
    7. Make a new crappy rev so buggy and huge and slow that no one wants it
    8. New crappy rev flops
    9. ???
    10. Develop new OS rev.
    11. DOJ no longer thinks you are an abusive monopoly
    12. ???
    13. Profit!!!

  25. Windows 7 or Lucky 7 ? by MeMeMeMe · · Score: 1

    Could they be attempting to roll the dice for luck here?

  26. What about the scheduled slip date? by Whuffo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Anyone who has been around for a while knows that there's a wide gap between when MS projects a new product being released and when it actually gets shipped. And then a third date when they actually finish the product and ship the service packs to make it work right.

    So why worry about Windows 7 now? It's years away - and it'll be essentially stillborn when it finally does arrive. By then, other better alternatives will be readily available for a far, far lower price.

  27. Ok, this will probably hurt me. by theaceoffire · · Score: 1

    I am a big, anti-MS fanboy.
    I dislike/hate almost everything that they have forced me to use in my life.
    However, with the changes of making IE8 much closer to standards (Won't accept this till it is out) I am in an interesting position.

    If Windows 7 allows competitors the knowledge needed to integrate with the OS, and treats user programs the same as Window's supported programs (Like WMP and IE), I will renounce half the things I said about the company.

    It will take a lot to make me a MS fan though.

    --
    I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
    1. Re:Ok, this will probably hurt me. by Shados · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on Windows 7... it will be -just- enough not to violate anti-thrust laws.

      Version -after- that will be "the one". A company like MS cannot move that fast... Vista took everything they had since it was a big direction shift (people can say what they want, but security wise, Vista is quite solid...and thats saying much from an MS product). It will took everything they have to make anti-thrust people ok. And then it will take everything they have again to be open-ish.

      They're moving in the right direction though...even if half the company is doing it kicking and screaming (I say half, because a lot of these things are from their own "star" employes pushing them, too).

  28. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by DaveWick79 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Free software may have had 64-bit versions - but was there any advantage over the 32 bit versions? Negligible in most cases. 32-bit software reworked to run on x64 isn't exactly cutting edge. Then once you had a x64 OS, you just ran 32-bit apps on it in compatibility mode.

    No, in the real world people count on their Windows apps to run their daily business. In your dream world, who is creating the everyday business apps to compete with the Windows counterparts that run nearly every business in the US?

  29. 2009/2010? by Zero_DgZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So that's it? All that to-do about Vista and how it's the Next Big Thing and it's slated to be replaced by "Windows 7" inside of a year and some change from now? That'll mean that Windows Vista was in production longer than it will be in service.

  30. Could It Be The End? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    If they try to build Windows 7 on top of Vista the way Millennium built on Windows 98, they're doomed.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:Could It Be The End? by Timbotronic · · Score: 2, Informative

      TFA quotes an analyst who thinks it'll be built on Server 2008 with a significantly pared down UI. That's actually very good news - the MinWin kernel may be nothing new to Unix users but it's a very welcome break from the bloat of Vista.

      --

      One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there

    2. Re:Could It Be The End? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I hope you're right. In view of other statements in the article, I thought it unwise to give a great deal of credibility to what is at best third-hand information, or even outright speculation. Nobody sourced the TC or Microsoft, even indirectly, for a Windows 7 - Server 2008 link.

      That said, such a move would make excellent sense. I was one of the unfortunates who had to use Millennium until I made a brief stop at Windows 2000 on my way to XP Pro. It was a good, solid OS that did everything the company asked of it.

      While I would consider upgrading to W7 instead of Linux if this turns out to be right (I'm still not betting on it), I will certainly never use Vista.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    3. Re:Could It Be The End? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      TFA quotes an analyst who thinks it'll be built on Server 2008 with a significantly pared down UI. That's actually very good news - the MinWin kernel may be nothing new to Unix users but it's a very welcome break from the bloat of Vista.
      I'm not sure how the first statement is relevant to the rest of your post, since Windows Server 2008 is, under the hood, pretty much the same as Vista SP1 (so much so that when you check the OS version, it'll say 2008 SP1...). So whatever technological problems exist in Vista, they are applicable to WS2008 just as well.
  31. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Asztal_ · · Score: 4, Funny
    New: Back up your files with Microsoft® Visual SourceSafe(TM)!
    • Fast
    • Secure
    • Reliable
  32. Great. by Kanasta · · Score: 4, Funny

    So now the US government is reduced to doing testing and QA for Microsoft!

    1. Re:Great. by shentino · · Score: 1

      Hey, they'll probably do a better job of it :/

      I hope funds get spent efficiently, even if they come out of the wrong pocket.

  33. Vista Capable is irrelevant by moosesocks · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What exactly does this discussion have to do with the "Vista Capable" debacle?

    Sure, Vista is a slow, bloated operating system that offers very few tangible improvements over its predecessor.

    However, the "Vista Capable" debacle grew out of the fact that Microsoft's marketing droids decided to vastly overstate Vista's ability to run over slow hardware.

    Had Microsoft been a bit more conservative with their estimates (subtly admitting that their operating system is a cow), there never would have been a legal issue. Vista on its own isn't a great product, although its faults do not constitute a breach of the law (had the product been absurdly unstable or insecure, that might have been the case, although by most accounts, Vista either holds the line or improves over XP in these regards).

    TFA discusses the possible engineering & design decisions that are being put into Windows 7 as new features. Odds are that many of these features haven't even been coded. Likewise, given that the design document has *just* been finalized, I can't imagine that the marketing guys have had much (if any) time to figure out how to spin the new product.

    Here's a hint: Look at the features that were dropped from Vista (some of them were actually quite innovative).

    Personally, I hope that Windows 7 is a decent, solid operating system, and corrects for Vista's faults. Microsoft has had a tendency to appropriately compensate if one of their products flops. NT4 spawned into a beautiful desktop-ready os with the release of Win2k, and after destroying all evidence that Windows Me! ever existed, Microsoft launched XP, which is arguably the most successful desktop operating system to date.

    Also, Apple needs a kick in the pants. They're getting complacent, and the Quality Control on the last few releases of OS X have been abysmal by their former standards.

    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    1. Re:Vista Capable is irrelevant by unfunk · · Score: 1

      Personally, I hope that Windows 7 is a decent, solid operating system, and corrects for Vista's faults. Microsoft has had a tendency to appropriately compensate if one of their products flops. NT4 spawned into a beautiful desktop-ready os with the release of Win2k, and after destroying all evidence that Windows Me! ever existed, Microsoft launched XP, which is arguably the most successful desktop operating system to date.
      Thankfully, the biggest difference between WinME and Vista is that Vista actually does some things really, really well. WinME didn't even do a good job of being shit - it 'sorta worked' most of the time - even I can make an OS that doesn't work at all!
  34. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by sjelkjd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    WTF are you talking about, your post is full of non-sequiters.

    >>Expect a continued messy transition to 64 bit computing that will favor Intel, the other monopoly laggart.
    Vista and XP both shipped with 64 bit versions, specifically x86-64, which was developed originally by.....drumroll.....AMD! How exactly is ignoring IA64 for x86-64 favoring Intel?

    >>Some nonsense about 32 bit computing
    Windows 95 was 32 bit software. Maybe you mean using a protected memory model and pre-emptive multitasking(which is an operating system concept and has nothing to do with application software). Even Mac OS 9 didn't have this, and WinNT(which predates it by several years) did!

    >>Free software has handed M$ it's ass for 64 bit software and architecture independence.
    Guess what! Windows runs on more than x86: IA64, DEC Alpha and x86-64 come to mind as current and past platforms.

    I think your point is that people don't have an incentive to buy a new computer or upgrade their operating system. You really need new killer apps to drive an upgrade cycle; lacking that, why should people upgrade?

  35. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You lost me at Lotus being superior software.

    It's a nice manifesto, but it's more about how you'd like the world to be than how it actually is or will be anytime soon.

  36. For antitrust review? by kcbrown · · Score: 0, Troll

    That means the version MS is submitting is a "special" version that is nothing like what the end product will actually be. Microsoft isn't stupid enough to be honest in a situation like this.

    And even if the antitrust people have enough brains to figure that out, they won't do anything about it.

    This is just another measure by our corporate-run government to fool the population into believing the government is on the average person's side, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    --
    Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
  37. Oblig. by Cairnarvon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Something similar would actually have been a useful certification for furniture likely to support an X-Box.

  38. You don't say "Xbox 360" on a roller coaster by tepples · · Score: 1

    I need some new coasters... Go to a theme park.
    1. Re:You don't say "Xbox 360" on a roller coaster by Tom9729 · · Score: 1

      I hope you were joking, but I meant the kind you put drinks on. Windows cd's make excellent coasters.

    2. Re:You don't say "Xbox 360" on a roller coaster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know someone who wallpapered the server room in his company with aol cds during his two weeks notice...

  39. Who remembers (Mac) System 7? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Now, that the official releases have jazzy official names (Vista, XP, whatnot) codenames have turned into... WINDOWS 7? so what gives? Microsoft copies Apple again. As I understand it, Apple didn't start marketing Mac OS with numbers in earnest until System 7 (1991).
  40. mac os 10.5 and linux have a better 64 bit system. by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    mac os 10.5 and linux have a better 64 bit system.

    Why can we have 32 bit and 64 bit in the same dvd / cd like how mac os 10.5 is and you don't have to pick 32 bit or 64 bit.

    With windows you need all 64 bit drivers I can see needing it for core system stuff but do we really need to have 64 bit printer drivers?
    Do we need to forced to use 64 bit joystick / other input stuff?

    What about other usb stuff that does not touch the core parts of the system.

    Do we really need a 64 bit IE that dose not work older plugs in's?

    64 bit windows also comes with ie 32 bit

    Why did you have to put the 32 bit apps in program files(x86) folder that brakes some apps?

    Why did you have to brake some 32 bit plug in's why can you just be able to 64 bit apps and use 4gb or ram with out havening to mess up the 32 bit apps.

  41. I haven't even yet by t35t0r · · Score: 1

    tried windows vista and they've already got win7?

  42. Here's your clean bill of health, Mr. Monopolist! by Zhe+Mappel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With Microsoft having been chosen as the exclusive Homeland Security contractor, what is the point of this pretense over antitrust? Even before this absurd contract, it was cogently pointed out (by Ralph Nader and Jamie Love; see: http://www.linux.com/feature/23279) that the government shouldn't be putting its eggs and our tax dollars in the Microsoft basket. Now, of course, Washington is in bed with the devil. And it's pretty hard to tell the devil he's not a good lay.

  43. OS X by EmotionToilet · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'm pretty sure OS X Leopard is 64 bit and has been one of the smoothest transitions to 64 bit yet. MS seems to be having some major problems getting driver support and application support for 64 bit, but OS X seems just fine.

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/64bit.html

    http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/apples_mac_os_x_leopard_is_64_bit_done_right_unlike_vista/

    1. Re:OS X by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      MS seems to be having some major problems getting driver support and application support for 64 bit Well, of course it's going to be different for Apple. If they had trouble getting driver support for all 30 different computers they supply, then they might as well throw in the towel now.
      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
  44. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by EvanED · · Score: 1

    This is a lot like the transition from 95 to XP. How many times did Bill Gates declare the "death of DOS" or "16 bit computing"?

    The relation between Windows 95 and friends and DOS has always been overstated; that family was decidedly 32-bit.

  45. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Kalriath · · Score: 1

    I see you haven't met twitter/erris before.

    --
    For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  46. delivery date by jtgd · · Score: 0
    "But recent company moves and revelations hint at what can be expected from the software, which is due for release in late 2014 or early 2015."

    There, fixed that for you.

    --
    J
  47. Re:Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapo by DAldredge · · Score: 1

    Vista both sold more copies and had more revenue in it's first year than OSX and all the commercial linux distros put together.

  48. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by vadim_t · · Score: 1

    What exactly is "32 bit software reworked to run on x64"? That would imply there's some good reason to write specifically for x64.

    Writing for x64 is for the most part exactly the same as for 32 bit. Hello world is exactly the same. So is 99% of software. The only time there is any difference is when there's a 64/32 bit specific optimization. Some of that can be done portably (types like int32_fast_t that indicate "This needs to be at least a 32 bit integer, but use whatever is fastest for the arch" that can be 64 bit if that's faster).

    The source is the same for a 32 bit and 64 bit application, unless fixing of stupid assumptions (like sizeof(void*) == sizeof(int)) is needed.

    You can optimize for x64, but most applications will never be specifically written for it. Maybe a CPU specific algorithm for something like encryption, but it's not something that requires a rewrite.

    That doesn't mean there's no advantage to 64 bit apps as compared to 32 bit ones on a 64 bit OS. Compiling for 64 bit gives you advantages. There are more registers, and the compiler knows that some features are absolutely guaranteed to exist, so it can use things like SSE, when a 32 bit CPU isn't guaranteed to have them. Then of course you pay a penalty for larger pointers.

  49. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Alsee · · Score: 4, Funny

    it's obvious that Skynet won't start from a chess AI, it'll start when Microsoft adds just one too many features to Office and Visual Studio, and they become self-aware.

    No, no Skynet risk from Office or Visual Studio.
    If they every become self-aware they will surely commit suicide.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  50. this annoys me... by unfunk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and I'm sure I'm going to have half of slashdot jumping down my throat, calling me a Microsoft Sympathiser for saying this, but...

    ...shit like third parties having their way with Windows is probably a very big reason why Vista isn't as great as it could be. The media companies stuck their big noses in, and we got Protected Media Pathway or whatever it's called... I can't copy files around my computer without Windows having to check for copy protection or whatever it's doing, and the antitrust-friendly "Default Programs" thing has somehow managed to make it harder to set file associations than before.

    The thing with Vista is; what it does well, it's really really good at. Windows Explorer finally does what I want it to do, and the audio mixing panel is a boon from the gods... it's just that all this is overshadowed by the stuff it doesn't do well, which is arguably not entirely Microsoft's fault.

    I'd like to see what Vista would have been like if everybody kept their noses out of it during development.

    1. Re:this annoys me... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...and I'm sure I'm going to have half of slashdot jumping down my throat, calling me a Microsoft Sympathiser for saying this, but... ...shit like third parties having their way with Windows is probably a very big reason why Vista isn't as great as it could be.

      I understand your argument and it does make sense. I even agree that some of the new features in Vista are better than what is offered by the competition (I submitted feature requests to both Kubuntu and OS X and Windows asking for those types of audio controls years ago). I think where we disagree is that you seem to have some sort of an idea that antitrust regulation is supposed to be hurting MS and making their products worse or something.

      The point of antitrust actions is to force a company to compete and give customers what they want for a fair price. In a competitive market, Microsoft gives OEMs (and through them end users) what they want or they lose money, so it is MS's best interest to give users the features they want. Introducing anti-features like Protected Media Pathway is something that would not happen in a competitive marketplace (or if it did the company would lose money because consumers could switch to alternatives).

      The only problems with the EU's antitrust actions to date is that they have been too lenient and have not really made MS hurt in response to breaking the law and hurting users. The US is the one that should really have jumped on MS and solved this problem. The EU has been handling MS with kid gloves for diplomatic reasons. I have one other point to make. Antitrust resolution is about making Windows and alternatives better by forcing them to challenge one another for every dollar of consumers' money.

      In my mind, the best way to deal with Microsoft at this point is to stop trying to micromanage every abuse individually (and there are dozens of obvious abuses that have not even been addressed yet). MS needs to be broken up and at least two of the new companies need to be given full access to the intellectual property and half the manpower behind Windows. New company A can start working on Windows A and new company B can start working on Windows B. Both must be forbidden from any collusion or even any nonpublic communications. Think about it. If company A knew consumers would be comparing their offering critically against Windows B, would they add more anti-features for the RIAA and MPAA that annoy customers or would they be financially motivated to get rid of anything that annoys users? Another advantage to this approach is that both companies are free to bundle or tie any products they want, since neither will have a monopoly and such bundling will no longer undermine the operation of the market. If one company pays millions to create some technology that is poorly designed (like IE) while the other company bundles Firefox, the first company will lose all that money and quickly look to either make IE better for users, or drop development and go with something cheaper and better. Finally, because having software work on both versions of Windows is important, developers will develop for whichever new company provides them with the best APIs and tools and developers will probably demand a way to write for both at once, which would have to be a published API, lending itself to cross-platform application development, which means programs that would run not only on both versions of Windows but also Linux, OS X , cell phones, and anything else for less cost... and that benefits everyone. In addition, investors will no longer look at investment in desktop operating systems or office suites as a doomed endeavor and will be able to invest in creating better alternatives (Like Linux distros) which will help to improve all OS's on the market.

      ...it's just that all this is overshadowed by the stuff it doesn't do well, which is arguably not entirely Microsoft's fault.

      I mostly disagree with this

  51. Re:Vista is a defense against antitrust charges by unfunk · · Score: 1

    once again, I am fearful of being called a MS Apologist, for this, but if you'll cast your mind back a few years, you'll remember how exactly the same things were being said about Windows XP and how it could barely run on 64MB of RAM and a 500MHz P3... Microsoft operating systems are a bit like a fine wine, in that they get better with age

    OK, maybe not a fine wine... but you get the analogy.

  52. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... by $criptah · · Score: 1

    If you are still caught up in this MSFT vs the rest of the world BS, you have not learned anything. When did the gov't start looking into their practices? Yesterday? I think not. By now any normal person who uses Windows should know the BS that MSFT has continuously provided in a nice and a very expensive wrapper. You have to be out of your fucking mind to believe that the latest version of the OS provided by MSFT will be bug free. The software is bloated and always late. MS Office crashes and your work goes bye-bye. How long will it take anybody with more than two brain cells to realize that if you want to work and be vendor independent, you have to look for alternative solutions.

    I am not a Mac lover-boy or a die-hard Linux fan. However, both of the platforms provide enough capabilities for Office work. I have been strongly advertising, suggesting and almost enforcing document formats that are other than MSFT. There was some friction at the beginning, but now my co-workers use Open Office and submit important documents in PDF or RTF formats. Hell, even HTML works :) I have not seen a PowerPoint presentation that cannot look cool as PDF file. That is unless you're trying to show off one of those "look, I made it move" stupid tricks that only dead beat sales guys will use to wake up the public. The point is that the future is in our hands. MSFT is just a company that tries to make some money but users still have the choice. Of course, in some cases choice is more limited but I found that as long as IT departments have open minds it is quite possible to use non-MSFT products for your daily routine. The only limitation I found was the fact that we are still lacking a good calendar/organizer solution in the Open Source space. Once there is a robust alternative to Out-fucking-crashed-again-look, MSFT will receive denials for M&S renewals.

  53. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's clear you missed out on VS 2005, even without mentioning the jump from 2003 to 2008. The rest of us are somewhat *yawn* over 2008, to be honest. Extension methods? No thanks! Anonymous types? Half-assed, too much reliance on reflection to be useful outside the immediate scope. The collections still leave a lot to be desired. But hey, we can finally hang that much-needed Reverse method off of (sealed class) string. Joy.

    All said, I am very happy to hear someone move on from 2003. I personally did not enjoy my experience with that environment. .NET 1.1 was everything I hated about Java, and none of what I liked. I held out in C++ quite stubbornly until .NET 2.0. Having a form of templates again (in a manner of speaking, at least) finally pulled me into C# full time. Of course, thanks to IronPython I am finding new love in Python, so C# is getting less and less attention (.NET 3.5 is also a big turn-off to me. Duck-type language features in a static language will not work.)

    Anyway, have fun with all the new toys. :)

  54. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Kwirl · · Score: 1

    The problem for M$ is that we have all learned the same lesson and are sick of it. Speak for yourself, I don't have problems with Windows, I run XP Pro, XP Media Center, and Vista Ultimate, love them, with Vista being my favorite (yay crysis).

    People are not going to just go along with things. They are not going to throw their hardware out again for another buggy version of Windows. I built a new computer just to run Vista, dual core 3.7ghz cpu with 8 gigs of ram, x-fi sound card and sli 8600 video cards - installed OS, updated drivers, have been running with no real compatability issues for any of my games or applications (photoshop, office 2007, Sims 2 + 13 expansions, BF2, Crysis and TF2.

    Free software works all of it better now, so Windows 7 is just as dead in the water as Vista was. The industry is losing money, and their trust in M$ is gone. Oooooh wait, is this the long-awaited year when Linux will rear its mighty head and amaze consumers, crushing Microsoft beneath its heel like so much dirt? Losing money? Who is? Vista sold 40 million copies within its first 3 months of availability, and as of last october had sold more than 88 million copies. Vista sales have done nothing but increase since it became available, and MS had almost 14 billion dollars of revenue in the first quarter of 2008 alone. Update As i was reading up on Microsoft's impending financial ruin, I discovered that Vista sales have topped 100 million copies sold, and that is just retail, not including volume licensing deals. I WISH that i was losing money like that! Anyway, sarcasm aside, thanks for giving me something to laugh at. It just isn't a day of reading slashdot without laughing at some pathetic open-source fanboy who preaches the oncoming collapse of windows like some impoverished village doomsayer.
  55. Microsoft == Combine? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Welcome to Windows 17. We hope your stay is a pleasant one.

    It's safer here.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  56. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You give Bill far too much credit - he has never said anything memorable. Not one single utterance.

    He wrote, rather than said, the following, but it is quite memorable.

    Because both the system's privacy and the security of digital money depend on encryption, a breakthrough in mathematics or computer science that defeats the cryptographic system could be a disaster. The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers. Any person or organization possessing this power could counterfeit money, penetrate any personal, corporate, or government file, and possibly even undermine the security of nations.

  57. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by harry666t · · Score: 1

    > Windows 95 was 32 bit software.

    Windows 95 was full of ugly 16bit code and shitty hacks to keep legacy 16bit stuff barely working. Did you know that the whole kernel space was mapped into every program's address space? AFAIR at around the 3rd gigabyte. Win95 thing was just some 32bit GUI & extensions on top of the 16bit DOS thing. Ugliest piece of shit in the OS history, but hey, people didn't care, they wanted their damn old legacy programs still working and that's what Win95 gave them, along with the ugly 16bit shitty hacks.

    > Vista and XP both shipped with 64 bit versions

    And what use you have of 64bit system where almost all apps are still 32bit? And BTW nobody cares to make two versions (32 and 64 bit) of their exe's because Windows lacks any decent package management. Maybe .NET will solve this, but I still consider it a half-solution.

    > Guess what! Windows runs on more than x86: IA64, DEC Alpha and x86-64

    And also MIPS, but guess what! It treated them as if they were 32bit. There were no real 64bit capabilities until XP 64-bit edition. Go figure. BTW all archs but x86(-64)? were dropped for "marketing reasons".

    A second thought... Xbox 360 runs a variant of Windows, right? Then there must be a 64bit PowerPC port also.

  58. Re:Vista is a defense against antitrust charges by voss · · Score: 1

    I am not a troll, I am not making this up, I am not making comments just to piss people off.

    Last week I bought an Inspiron 1501 laptop from dell outlet. It came with Vista home Premium.
    The thing was nothing but sluggish. I use vista premium on my desktop at home, it works okay because
    I have a dual core with 2gb of ram and an 8600 graphics card.

    On my laptop which comes with a sempron 3600 processor and a gig of ram I figured I could run WOW at low resolution 800x600,
    I was averaging 17 frames per second! That is unusable.

  59. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

    I think that the drive for 64-bit will not come from MS or Intel, but from the memory manufacturers. When regular people start needing/wanting over 4GB of RAM, they won't have much choice but to go 64-bit. Ever heard of PAE? It was a strange idea.

    --
    I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  60. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by msormune · · Score: 1

    Microsoft concentrates on the features that matter for the consumer - Like when they quickly integrated USB/USB2 support into Windows. No regular computer using person gives a rat's ass how many bits does the OS or programs have... But they really like to copy their camera pictures on the computer with as less trouble as possible.

  61. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Windowser · · Score: 3, Funny

    I built a new computer just to run Vista, dual core 3.7ghz cpu with 8 gigs of ram, x-fi sound card and sli 8600 video cards

    Is this the kind of machine you need to run Vista decently ?

    On that kind of hardware I could install Kubuntu then Asterisk and build a PBX for an office of at least 300 agents, put a TV card in and install MythTV so I can watch shows on MY schedule, configure Samba to act as the domain controller with roaming profiles for the agent's desktop machines (if they are running Windows), serve the agent's web-based CRM with Apache/PHP/MySQL, put in a second nic and configure it as a gateway/firewall/email-virus-scanner/etc and many other services that could be needed by the company that don't come to mind because I'm at my first coffee.

    And if my only job is to administer that server, I would also install my favorite games on it because most of my time will be passed playing them since it will be stable.
    --
    Avoid the MS tax, always buy I.B.M. PC's (I Built-it Myself)
  62. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Free software may have had 64-bit versions - but was there any advantage over the 32 bit versions? If you've got a real computer, there is no advantage. On my 64-bit SPARC, most of the software I run is 32-bit because you use less memory bandwidth and CPU cache storing 32-bit pointers than 64-bit ones. On x86, however, the 64-bit transition also doubles the number of general purpose registers, which can give around a 10-15% speed boost on most apps even including the performance hit from going 64-bit. If you want really good performance from an x86-64 system then (for most workloads) you want an ABI which specifies a 32-bit virtual address space and runs the chip in 64-bit mode, but I don't know of any OS that actually does this.
    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  63. Re:I think they've already got a solution worked o by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    One DVD to rule them all and in the darkness bind them?

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  64. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or intheloo looks like twitter made another slashdot account

  65. Re:Here's your clean bill of health, Mr. Monopolis by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    ...hat the government shouldn't be putting its eggs and our tax dollars in the Microsoft basket.

    Don't forget their deal with the Library of Congress to put the national archives into proprietary formats.

  66. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Immerial · · Score: 1

    No, no Skynet risk from Office or Visual Studio. If they every become self-aware they will surely commit suicide.

    If it's anything like what some people do... maybe it will try to take as many people down as it can and then commit suicide.

    ... so that's how it happens.

  67. Re:Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapo by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    6. Get hosed by DOJ for being an abusive monopoly

    You missed number 6.5 pay off politicians so the DOJ ignores you.

    11. DOJ no longer thinks you are an abusive monopoly

    The DOJ has done jack and shit since MS became a huge contributor to both the Democratic and Republican parties. This one should be about the EU commission, who they have not bribed yet.

  68. Re:Linux? by shentino · · Score: 1

    Linux IS ready. What about the $200 laptop?

    They didn't quit making it until Wal-Mart quit selling it.

  69. Re:Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapo by Barsteward · · Score: 1

    But how many of those PCs are still running Vista? A large percantage of them are probably running Linux or XP now because you had to suffer a purchase of a new PC that was only sold with Vista.

    --
    "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  70. Re:I think they've already got a solution worked o by ev1lg · · Score: 1

    Actually, it's the inverse. "Supports Windows 7" means that the hardware that hosts the OS may be placed on top of the box containing the hardware that you've just purchased. Of course, there are exceptions, e.g. if you plug-in your IPOD into Windows 7, because that will violate the compatibility clause altogether.

  71. Re:Vista is Microsoft's secret antitrust rev weapo by DAldredge · · Score: 1

    The vast majority are still.

  72. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by QuietObserver · · Score: 1

    Actually, WordPerfect is far better than Word. You can easily publish a book written in WordPerfect; I should know because I've done it. There are easily accessible printer and page settings available in WordPerfect that allow documents to be printed in a near infinite number of ways.

  73. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by QuietObserver · · Score: 1

    If he's been educated in todays public school system, he's probably been fed all the propaganda that makes him believe what he's arguing, even if he's never been shown what WordPerfect can do, or how easily WordPerfect does what it does. I, personally, have used both Word and WordPerfect, and I can't tolerate Word; nothing in Word makes sense, from an author's point of view, whereas WordPerfect is very clear about everything, and is also so easy to customize, I can do anything I need.

  74. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

    Ugh you sound like a mac fan. It's "so much easier" for you because you're an idiot and wordperfect has no options.

  75. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by QuietObserver · · Score: 1

    WordPerfect has thousands of options; you're the one who sounds like an idiot. In WordPerfect, which I've used for years, I can do anything except HTML that can be done in Word more easily, and with fewer frustrations. I do like Macs, and I do have one, but your blanket statement makes you sound like a moron. Perhaps you should think before you respond.

  76. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by jonadab · · Score: 1

    > You're wrong about world perfect- MS Office has always been the premiere office suite.

    Umm, MS Office hasn't always existed.

    When WordPerfect was the leading word processing software, the only component of what is now Office that actually existed was Word, but it was nowhere near as well-known and popular as Word Perfect. There were also still people who swore by WordStar, in a get-off-my-lawn sort of way. The major spreadsheet was Lotus 123, and the major database (on microcomputers) was dbase. Microsoft Works existed, but it was... not very featureful.

    We're about the eighties here, though, when people were still using DOS 5, and *all* of the above-mentioned software ran in text mode, so it didn't matter what kind of graphics adaptor you had. (MDA would even work if you didn't need color.) You also didn't need a 386 to run any of this -- it would run just fine on an 8086, and run pretty well if you had a full 640K of RAM.

    The other poster seems to imply (though he does not directly state) that WP was still superior in 1996 when Windows 95 came out. This is not the case. His post is sufficiently disorganized that I'm not certain if it's something he *meant* to imply, or a symptom of poor communication, but in either case that's off by several years.

    Anyway, when Windows 3.x came out, Word was updated to support it much faster than WordPerfect was, and furthermore the Windows version of Word actually fit in the GUI environment and looked like it belonged and adhered to the standard conventions; whereas, WordPerfect, like always, did everything Its Own Way. This doesn't necessarily mean it was a worse word processing suite objectively, but it looked and felt worse, *especially* to people who had never used DOS, and due to the exponential growth of the popularity of PCs during those years such people rapidly became the majority.

    WP has since conformed to industry standards rather better, but the first for-Windows version of WordPerfect was pretty much just WordPerfect for DOS with basic WYSIWYG support for fonts and such. By the time Windows 95 came out, WordPerfect had pretty well been relegated to a few niche markets and was fading in popularity pretty fast. The only people who wanted to use it were people who had previously used and liked WordPerfect for DOS.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  77. Re:Vista? They learned from ME but so did we. by WithLove · · Score: 1

    Sims 2 + 13 expansions

    As you can see, the average end-user doesn't need near as much memory as you do.