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DOE Shines $14M on Solar Energy Research

coondoggie writes "Eleven university solar research projects aimed at developing advanced solar photovoltaic (PV) technology manufacturing processes and products got a $14 million boost today from the Dept. of Energy. Photovoltaic-based solar cells convert sunlight directly into electricity, and are made of semiconductor materials similar to those used in computer chips. When sunlight is absorbed by these materials, the solar energy knocks electrons loose from their atoms, allowing the electrons to flow through the material to produce electricity."

49 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. This has to be good news by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Once costs are the same as that of power from the grid then people will use this. It will help the environment and energy security. The only worry is that peak power production will still have to deal with night-time demand. We need to look at efficient, cheap energy storage.

    1. Re:This has to be good news by Aglassis · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Once costs are the same as that of power from the grid then people will use this. It will help the environment and energy security. The only worry is that peak power production will still have to deal with night-time demand. We need to look at efficient, cheap energy storage. I think the first solution should be to rush into production the superconducting electric grid part of the Grid 2030 project. Being able to efficiently transport power across the country would significantly increase the stability of the electric grid which would allow more solar and other renewable energy projects to come online. This would also be a lot cheaper efficiency-wise and capital-wise than the massive civil engineering projects that will be required for pumped storage. It would also give a lot more flexibility in the use of peaking plants for nighttime use. Until an efficient electric grid is implemented where you can easily and economically transport electricity thousands of kilometers (such as with a high voltage DC grid or a superconducting electric grid) you are still going to need tons of local peaking plants and your renewable energy plants (excluding hydropower) are only going to occasionally cut into the load of your base load plants which will make them less economical. The Albany superconducting line seems to be working well so it is time that a larger system is implemented.
      --
      Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
    2. Re:This has to be good news by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well - photovoltaics is excellent for powering air conditioning and offices. Maybe there is a business model here: Sell excess power to a storage company that stores the energy, and then sells it back at a slight premium at night? I think that may very well be more cost-effective compared to installing large battery capacity in each house (consider unused storage capacity).

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    3. Re:This has to be good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      look into beacon power systems...

      they're making large flywheel systems to store off peak power to release during peak demand... DOE funding them too.

    4. Re:This has to be good news by hcdejong · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A superconducting grid would be nice, but (assuming current-day superconductors which require liquid nitrogen for cooling) is decidedly nontrivial to build and maintain. Copper/aluminium wire can easily be strung between towers. A superconducting wire has to be enclosed by the cooling medium, making the 'cable' assembly unwieldy and I suspect putting the assembly underground becomes the only option.

      There's also the failure modes to consider: losing the cooling probably means the wire will melt.

    5. Re:This has to be good news by aurispector · · Score: 5, Insightful

      $14 million? A whole $14 MILLION? Gosh, I didn't think that much money existed in the whole world! Wow! All our problems are solved! Thank goodness the government is stepping in to save us! FOURTEEN MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!

      You know, I've tried to be objective when evaluating Bush and his aid to africa package did not escape my notice. Unfortunately the TRILLIONS that will be spent on the iraq war make everything else pale in comparison. Especially when toilet paper is worth more than the dollar. My kids will be paying for this and I happen to love my kids. Right now I'm fucking pissed off. Thanks, George! And I'm a conservative!

      $14 Million my ass.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    6. Re:This has to be good news by necro81 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Another business model is to do energy-intensive things at night, when electricity is cheapest. A local school district, in their new elementary school, has an AC system that produces huge amounts of ice overnight, then uses that to produce cool air during the day. I believe some high-rises are starting to do this, too, because the cost of electricity for cooling during peak hours of the day is exceptionally high. More large buildings would probably do this, but are too short-sighted to see that a larger capital expenditure up front can be cheaper over the long haul.

    7. Re:This has to be good news by kcdoodle · · Score: 2, Informative

      The grid has very low losses.
      Even over long distances, the losses are only around 2-3%.
      Given that 2-3% is actually a very large amount of energy, it still would not justify the energy (and dollar) losses of maintaining a super conducting grid.

      Huge mass production of cheap, fairly efficient solar cells could might all of the worlds energy problems.

      --

      - I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
    8. Re:This has to be good news by Aglassis · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think the first solution should be to rush into production the superconducting electric grid part of the Grid 2030 project

      I don't think this is realistic with current technology (although I haven't been keeping an eye on what is state of the art).

      Superconductors are limited in the amount of current they can carry. IIRC high temperature superconductors are particularly poor in this respect as well as not forming very good wires. But liquid He is so expensive, rare, and energy costly to produce that "normal" temperature superconductors aren't going to be efficient either.

      Tim. The Albany Project (pdf) used a high temperature superconductor that was cooled with liquid nitrogen and the cable was able to carry a significant load (several times higher than that of conventional high voltage cables).
      --
      Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
    9. Re:This has to be good news by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the UK strorage heaters are popular for the same reason, at least where houses are not connected to the mains gas supply. You can get a meter that charges a lower rate for off-peak energy, which makes these reasonably economical forms of heating.

    10. Re:This has to be good news by jo42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      $14 million is barely over an hour of the cost of the US occupation of Iraq: senate.gov

    11. Re:This has to be good news by Jeremi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That was going to be my point EXACTLY...14Million? WOW they spend that much in iraq in about 10 minutes..


      The point to take away from the comparison isn't that $14 million is worthless, but rather that the war in Iraq is ridiculously expensive. $14 million, applied in a productive manner, can go a long way. On the other hand, when trying to solve an insoluble problem like Iraq, no amount of money would be effective.


      The BUSH has been a complete disaster to science research in this country, we may never recover


      Given a competent replacement, I believe we can. Just because we've spent the last 8 years spinning our wheels doesn't mean we have to continue to do so.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    12. Re:This has to be good news by onkelonkel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um...No. DC works just fine now. It didn't back a 100 years ago though. "The advantage of HVDC is the ability to transmit large amounts of power over long distances with lower capital costs and with lower losses than AC." - from the wikipedia.

      AC got the head start because it's easy to use transformers to raise voltage for transmission lines (high voltage = low current = less IxIxR resistive losses) and transform back down at the user end. Now that we have modern power electronics we can use inverters to do the same with DC.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
  2. What will $14 million achieve? by kaos07 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    $14 million spread across 11 universities = $1.27 million dollars. It is definitely a start but when you compare it to the $2 billion the DOE was going to spend in developing new rural coal plants you have to ask where their priorities lie.

    1. Re:What will $14 million achieve? by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree, inasmuch as any money invested in non-oil power and fuels (even sequestered-carbon coal technologies) is bound to have some significant returns to the public, given where oil prices are headed (some estimate $125/bbl oil in the near future). However, there's a big difference between research at the academic level and actual development. $2 billion may seem like a lot of money, but when you're actually building power plants, it doesn't go that far, while $1.27 million for a small university-based research team is quite a prize (and many groups wouldn't be able to spend tens of millions of dollars on pure research even if you offered it to them).

      Still, we can only hope that these groups meet with quick success and that their work can be brought into development in the near future (not to mention the various other power sources that are much farther along).

    2. Re:What will $14 million achieve? by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Exactly my thoughts. 1.27M per research group will be about enough to setup a lab and run it for 1-2 years. Yippy. They might be able to buy enough solar cells to power there computers :)

      There is a big push to use coal power because the US has so much natural reserves of the stuff and it will help develop the some of the areas of the country that currently have little job prospects. I think the worry with solar is that you'd find a great way to manufacture the cells, but then all the manufacturing would go overseas. Less US jobs created + you still don't have energy independence.

    3. Re:What will $14 million achieve? by cpricejones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, clearly 14 million dollars amounts to very little. If the DOE was interested in getting off oil and other nonrenewable resources, they would clearly put more money (billions) into solar energy.

      Then again, it's going to take nonrenewable resources to fund the research on solar energy ... the DOE being the greatest department, knows this of course. Brilliant!

    4. Re:What will $14 million achieve? by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is definitely a start but when you compare it to the $2 billion the DOE was going to spend in developing new rural coal plants you have to ask where their priorities lie.

      Or maybe I should call it chimp change. 14 million when you're talking about a nation dependent on a line of oil tankers that stretches half-way around the world and pumps billions of dollars a day into one of the most oppressive governments on the planet. A country that just happens to supply the bulk of working terrorists in the world. The same country we get some of those dollars back by selling them mountains of advanced weapons systems, sending more guns to a part of the world that really doesn't need them.

      So how's that 14 million looking now?

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  3. Where do the electrons go? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

    When the solar energy knocks those electrons loose, they travel out into the power grid, but unless there is some way to replenish those electrons, we're looking at a dwindling amount of electrons in the substrate. Normally, the additional electrons would be supplied via an electron-rich compound such as water or liquid mercury, but these advanced solar panels are turning solar energy directly into electrical energy, so there can't possibly be any extra electron replenishment without significant reduction in energy production. The alternative, of course, is to let Nature fill in those lost electrons at night when electron activity is at its highest (due to an abundance of free electrons caused by lowered grid electricity usage).

    I'm interested in seeing how these researchers are able to de-ionize the silicon gel platters and create extra-electronned wafers that stand up to both the harsh elements as well as the long environmental electron replenishment mechanisms.

  4. Should we subsidize specific technologies? by bhima · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a fairly ecologically minded guy and I do think we need to develop energy sources which don't have us polluting or dealing with unsavory governments. However I question the wisdom of backing specific technologies over others. I think it would better to simply remove all the subsidies on coal mining and coal burning power plants. And then punitively tax ecologically unsound processes or activities. This will bring a parity to energy costs also and it removes the artificial motivations to pursue inferior technologies and cling to outdated ones.

    --
    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
  5. On the basis of the evidence... by patio11 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It would appear that their priorities lie in "generating cheap, reliable power", something which has not happened with solar despite us being "really close now!" for the last 25 years and billions in federal R&D. ($159 million in 2007 alone.)

    The Department of Energy estimates that, in 15 years, America will get a whopping 2-3% of its electricity generation from solar power. It isn't hard to understand why: it is expensive, the technology takes a stupidly long time to go energy-positive (and longer to achieve ROI), and solar is and *always will be* hostage to weather conditions which make it impossible to as a main power source in the overwhelming majority of this country.

    If you want cheap energy, go coal. If you want cheap clean energy, go nuclear. If you want the undying love of people who understand neither engineering or economics and are not willing to learn either, go solar.

    1. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by kaos07 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you want cheap energy, go coal

      The cost of setting up a plant is hardly "cheap" and what happens when coal becomes scarce? It IS a finite resource - unlike the sun.

      If you want cheap clean energy, go nuclear.

      Once again the cost of setting up a nuclear power plant is in the billions. Fissile materials are also finite, when they begin to run out we'll see huge increases in price. See the case of oil now.

      I also take issue with your point that nuclear energy is "green". Even if we say that plants are entirely safe (Which seems to be the Slashdot consensus) there are many other issues. First of all, what does one do with the waste? Plutonium 239, the most common material used, has a half life of 24,000 years. That's longer than civilisation has so far existed. None of our current methods of storing waste are viable and many have been proven useless.

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0606/S00198.htm

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cumbria/4589321.stm

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7068041.stm

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/18/japan.justinmccurry1

      http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003816157_webhanfordleak01.html?syndication=rss

      Let's not forget the insane amounts of energy required to both commission a plant, continually mine and transport uranium and then decommission it.

      I don't understand how you can argue that replacing our dependence on finite resource that pollutes the environment with another finite resource that pollutes the environment is a good thing. I suggest you read the recently commission Garnaut Review (Professor Ross Garnaut is an economist at the Australian National University) which states that nuclear is a non-viable option and the world must develop renewable sources of energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garnaut_Report. Or the Stern review (also made by an economist) which reaches a similar conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review. I do believe these two in particular have a broader depth of knowledge surrounding economics than you do.

    2. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by kaos07 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.

      I personally do not believe they are safe but I have noticed that whenever this is brought up on Slashdot dozens of posts are sent in reply claiming that nuclear has "Come so far" since Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island and "nothing like that could ever happen again". Instead of getting bogged down on whether or not a nuclear power plant is likely to go into meltdown I thought it was better to stick to the inarguable facts.

    3. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by mhalagan · · Score: 4, Interesting
      As far as the USA is concerned, weather is not as large a factor as it is made out to be.

      Considering that Germany(the solar capital of the world) recieves roughly the same amount of sunlight as Seattle. Almost all of the USA could take advantage of solar energy.

      Also the average home in the USA recieves enough sunlight on its roof to power itself for 2-3 days worth of energy consumption. (assuming the sunlight was harnessed)

    4. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by baker_tony · · Score: 2, Insightful
      > First of all, what does one do with the waste? Plutonium 239, the most common material used, has a half life of 24,000 years. That's longer than civilisation has so far existed. None of our current methods of storing waste are viable and many have been proven useless.

      What?! You're on Slashdot and you're not thinking "hmm, wonder what will happen with technology in the future?".

      Do you seriously think that in the next 24,000 years of human science we WON'T come up with a solution to handle nuclear waste better? What about within the next 1,000 years (we can safely store for that long no worries). Still to long for ya? What about the next HUNDRED years, think we'll be able to deal with it then?

      Did you know that we're already re-processing and using the waste from nuclear reactors from TEN years ago?

      Come on, safely store the waste under a mountain in a geographically stable area (there isn't much waste that comes from a nuclear reactor) for now and deal with it 10, 50, 100 years from now.

      Nuclear is safe, reliable and doesn't produce emissions when running. Much better than killing tens of thousands of people every year due to coal particulates in the air.

    5. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by sabaco · · Score: 4, Informative

      Check out Integral Fast Reactors. They are passively safe (they can't go into meltdown, even if the entire system fails, because the reaction slows down as the temperature increases), they use several orders of magnitude less fuel, and work perfectly well getting fuel as un-enriched uranium or thorium or even depleted uranium and normal nuclear waste (which means that they easily have more than 3000 times as much fuel available as the light water reactors that are currently most common), and they produce orders of magnitude less nuclear waste (on the order of 200 times less) which also has a half life in the range of 200 years (instead of thousands of years). Oh, and did I mention that waste is treated on site, rather than being shipped to some distant storage facility? They are still considered experimental because the only one to operate in the US was canceled because of pressure by John Kerry (thanks a lot) after operating for 30 of the planned 35 years. The only reason that IFRs weren't considered competitive with light water reactors is because waste disposal is essentially free for utilities. (The cost of operations outweighs the improvement in fuel efficiency, but not the real cost of waste disposal.)

      We should be building some of those, not more of the current (ancient) reactor designs.

      --
      This is SO educational! -- Kintaro Oe
    6. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by baker_tony · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. You must be a baby boomer, leaving all your shit for your kids to clean up.

      Damn, and with language like that you must be a 16 year old AOL user.

      I'm sure my kids (or my kids grandchildren) will appreciate trying to clean the air rather than stored nuclear waste.

      My priority would be to stop polluting the air now and nuclear is the best way I've heard to mass produce energy with the fewest emissions now. I work in the energy industry, wind is a joke and everything else doesn't scale up very well yet.

    7. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by neomunk · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I remember correctly, it's not that they don't have meltdowns, it's that they are SUPPOSED to be in a state of meltdown. I -THINK-. (too lazy to google)

      IIRC they keep the fuel in a hot liquid state and basically keep it covered in molten sodium. They use convection for "pumping" the coolant and can process most nuclear wastes as fuel.

      I've always thought the fast integrals were good ideas too, if for nothing else than to process our currently stored wastes.

    8. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by locofungus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As far as "nuclear waste" is concerned, "nuclear waste" from power plants is just nuclear fuel that hasn't been reprocessed yet because Carter outlawed nuclear fuel reprocessing back in the '70s.

      Not completely. It's also rubber gloves, overalls, etc, etc, that workers were wearing but are now classed as too radioactive to dispose of in landfill.

      Last time I looked, for the UK put 1 smoke detector in a dustbin (240litres) and it can be collected by the dustmen (legally). Put two smoke detectors in the same dustbin and the whole dustbin load becomes "nuclear waste".

      Story I heard from my physics tutor (so I assume it's true).

      When the nuclear physics laboratory was built they wanted to put in a 20MeV tandem van-der-graff accelerator. There were two problems - one, there was a building height limit in Oxford and two, the normal cement they use in Oxford is so radioactive that any nuclear plant would immediately be shut down due to excessive radiation.

      The first problem was solved by digging two stories down. The second problem was solved by going round all the builders yards with a geiger counter looking for the least radioactive cement.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    9. Re:On the basis of the evidence... by johnny+maxwell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I personally do not believe they are safe but I have noticed that whenever this is brought up on Slashdot dozens of posts are sent in reply claiming that nuclear has "Come so far" since Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island and "nothing like that could ever happen again" It always amazes me how people stick to that line of reasoning. I hope they realize that there are _still_ RBMK reactors (Chernobyl-type) operating today in Russia. Some of them had accidents with partial core meltdown in the past (The "Leningrad Nuclear Power Plant").
  6. $14M? by Bo'Bob'O · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People spend more on their houses then that, and this is what our country spends on it? Photovoltaics might not be a silver bullet, but there are millions of rooftops that could be taking the edge off of our demand for energy, a demand that helps fuel the conflicts in the middle east, and we spend less money for a year on research then two hours on Iraq? $14M isn't news. Tell me when that M is a B.

    1. Re:$14M? by BlackPignouf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As you said, photovoltaics is surely not a silver bullet, for the simple fact that there isn't any.
      Actually, the only one that we could have would be the Negawatts obtained from energy savings here and there.

      Anyway, solar energy appears to be the only scalable renewable energy source. You sure cannot obtain 100% of electricity production from it, but after some energy savings, 50% nukes + 50% solar panels could be a possibility for most countries.
      It is just impossible to obtain more than a few % with either biomass, hydropower, windpower or geothermal sources. Sure enough, those renewables should be used wherever possible, but they just cannot cover enough load. For what's left, we should use solar energy and nukes.

    2. Re:$14M? by BlackPignouf · · Score: 2, Informative

      your SOURCE on that ? Well, mostly :
      - the amount of PWh needed
      - some common sense
      - and the research center I work in.

      I guess it's still not enough for you, so:
      - hydropower is at its peak in many countries (e.g. in the EU) and comes with some massive environmental drawbacks (e.g. "Three Gorges Dam").
      - biomass is surely interesting, but should not put more pressure on food supply chain and should be almost carbon-neutral. In Germany, customers already need to import wood pellets from Italy and France in good ol' diesel trucks. Biomass is not renewable anymore in this case!
      - windpower provides between 2 to 5 times as less GWh/(km.year) as photovoltaics panels. Plus, you cannot use it right next to where it's needed.
      - geothermal? use it wherever possible, but it does not represent so much either.
      I go look for some more sources and I come back!
      (I already have some, but are mostly in French or German...)
    3. Re:$14M? by polar+red · · Score: 2, Interesting

      - windpower provides between 2 to 5 times as less GWh/(km.year) as photovoltaics panels. errr... right, I'll try to understand what you mean: You're saying that per square km, the amount of energy produced is 2 to 5 times lower ? That's totally irrelevant. In current state of tech, windpower is one of the cheapest available. People say it is intermittent (it is NOT... more on that later) so let's assume max 20% of energy production wind : that's still 20% CO2 reduced ? right ?

      Plus, you cannot use it right next to where it's needed. huh ??? there's a thing called 'Electrical wiring'
      On intermittent availability : Wind 'turns' around high and low-pressure areas, so if you are at the center of a high- or low-pressure area, there is no wind, that means that a few hundred Km's further (in ANY direction) there will be wind. furthermore : our planet is a blanket of high and low-pressure zones adjacent to each other, and the reason very simple : the moon turns around us, the earth turns around it's axis, we move around the sun, the earth is a globe, clouds : this leads to an uneven warming of the earths-surface --> high and low-pressure zones.
      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
  7. Solved --- Re:Where do the electrons go? by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 2, Funny
    This issue was solved long ago:

    $ fortune -m "electron buildup"

    Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles, called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking. Electrons travel at the speed of light, which in most American homes is 110 volts per hour. This is very fast. In the time it has taken you to read this sentence so far, an electron could have traveled all the way from San Francisco to Hackensack, New Jersey, although God alone knows why it would want to.
    The five main kinds of electricity are alternating current, direct current, lightning, static, and European. Most American homes have alternating current, which means that the electricity goes in one direction for a while, then goes in the other direction. This prevents harmful electron buildup in the wires.
    -- Dave Barry, "The Taming of the Screw"
    --
    Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
  8. Re:Wow, and we can for over 300 billion for a war by xippie · · Score: 2, Funny

    And the war is for OIL control.

  9. World Grid? by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course a superconducting world grid could solve the problem of darkness at night-time. I would imagine that we are half a century off this technically and who knows how far off politically though.

  10. Meanwhile ... by daveime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Meanwhile, in other news, the cost of the war in Iraq is approximately $275 million USD per DAY. http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

    So that $14 million is about an hour and a halfs worth of investment, on one of the technologies that would stop us having to fight any more "wars for oil" ever again.

    Makes you think ...

  11. Stable energy sources by ruinevil · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Solar and wind, as they are now anyways, will never be stable energy sources, they are too dependent on the other variables, like the weather. Nations need a constant baseline of energy that solar and wind cannot provide reliably. Solar and wind are useful for summer days or the Super Bowl, when energy use goes above our usual baseline. We need to do more research in one of two fields, increase energy efficiency, so we have a lower baseline, and research cleaner, renewable, but most importantly reliable energy sources. I think, right now, nuclear is our best bet for that.

    1. Re:Stable energy sources by kaos07 · · Score: 2

      Please provide evidence that nuclear is "clean" and "renewable".

    2. Re:Stable energy sources by neomunk · · Score: 4, Funny

      Lesee.... It's clean because if you stand a mile or so from the materials used you won't notice any negative effects. And... (this one's harder) umm... oh, it's renewable in the sense that if we get hit with a stellar core fragment from some supernova somewhere it will renew our supply of fuel...(?)

      Yeah, that's the ticket. :-D

    3. Re:Stable energy sources by bkr1_2k · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why do people seem to keep assuming a "one size fits all" solution when these subjects come up? If we individually moderate our consumption (yes I understand that's not very likely to happen) and we incorporate several forms of renewable technology we will reduce our dependence on non-renewables drastically. Each house in the US could be retrofitted with a reasonable solar array for something like $50k. That won't solve all the owner's power needs, but it will put a large dent in them.

      Combine that with geothermal heat pumps that drive a radiant heating system (preferably built into the floors for maximum efficiency) and some wind power (a few small wind generators won't do too much damage to the local environment but can help a little bit) and some heat recovery methods built into the plumbing of the house and most people will reduce power consumption by as much as a third or even half since most of our energy usage actually comes from heating a house or water for our personal comfort.

      Solar doesn't have to be the "silver bullet" that so many opponents use as a reason not to fund it. It just has to be part of the solution.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    4. Re:Stable energy sources by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 2, Informative

      Which is nice in theory, but the energy cost of putting an installation in orbit tends to make the already-unattractive ROI for solar completely unacceptable.

      We need space elevators for cheap orbital lift. :)

  12. Who modded this down. by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Informative

    Who modded this down? This is a genuine aid to small short-term variations. See beacon power. I am not sure that such technologies could cope with day/night fluctuations though, for these long period variations probably pump storage hydroelectric may be better. They are probably complementary technologies, as it takes a pump-storage plant about a minute to reach full load from stand-still, or 15 seconds from "hot standby", where the turbines are kept spinning under zero load.

  13. Two solar technologies are supposedly economic by Jameson+Burt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As I recall, 60% of all the world's solar energy is being generated in Germany.
    So, rather than look around the U.S., one should see how Germany harnesses solar energy.
    Two technologies have made solar technologies much less expensive.
    1. Solar concentrators.
          When sunlight hits a solar energy device,
          that device needn't convert immediately to electricity or heat.
          Split the use of solar energy into two steps,
          a. Concentrate/divert the solar light with what looks like a mirror
                or microwave antenna, but several meters in diameter.
          b. Focus the solar mirror onto your solar energy converter;
                essentially our solar cells of today, but able to withstand
                large amounts of solar energy.
          Producing solar mirrors is far less expensive than producing solar panels.
          This concentrator method is being claimed by some Israelis.
          They claim that 3 such concentrators save enough energy costs
          to construct a new concentrator in 3 years,
          thereby bootstrapping the economics of constructing solar concentrators.

    2. Thin solar panels.
          Thin is cheaper than thick.
          Germans have developed this technology.

    Germany is one of the last places you'd expect to have half the world's solar power.
    From the same solar setup, you can get about twice as much energy near the equator
    (eg, Israel) than in high latitude Germany.
    Indeed, if we covered the Sahara Desert with solar panels,
    we would produce as much energy as used by the whole world.

    People on this blog mention that solar energy isn't storable.
    But everything on earth is the result of solar energy
    -- previous stars exploded to produce uranium and all the other elements besides hydrogen,
    oil and coal are sunlight stored in carbon chains.
    Which storage method used by nature could we use ourselves?
    We could heat water then store it underground,
    we could create carbon chains like oils,
    we could move Sysiphus proverbial rock (or water) uphill then retrieve it downhill.
    Dams once provided much of America's energy,
    and now solar energy could move lake or sea water up into dams for later use.
    If we go to mostly battery driven cars,
    100 million big car batteries can store a great deal of solar energy.
    Solar energy can be stored;
    but perhaps the greatest technological challenge is not the acquisition of solar energy,
    rather the storage of this energy.

  14. Back to the future...with solar cells by swm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In 1974 my 8th grade class went to Washington D.C.
    One day they took us to the Capitol, and after the obligatory tour, they turned us loose.
    In the Capitol. To look around. Really. It was a different world back then.

    Anyway, I picked a hearing room at random, wandered in, and sat down.
    This was during the first energy crisis, and someone was testifying to the committee about solar cells.
    He was explaining that just as advances in IC technology had brought down the cost of ICs,
    advances in the solar cell technology would bring down the cost of solar energy.

    It sounded plausible, but it was completely wrong.
    And for reasons that anyone testifying before congress should have understood.

    It costs a certain amount of money (~ $1K) to process a silicon wafer.
    We brought down the cost of ICs by making them smaller, so we get more of them for our $1K.
    But that trick doesn't work with solar cells.
    Solar cells collect photons over their surface.
    You can make one smaller, sure, but then it collects fewer photons and produces less energy.

    The only way to make solar cells cheaper is reduce the cost of the wafer and the processing,
    and that's *hard*.
    We've been working on it for 40 years,
    and they still aren't competitive with coal/oil/gas/nuclear powered electric generators. (~ $0.10/KW-hr)

    1. Re:Back to the future...with solar cells by sherriw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're looking at it wrong.

      Too often, the cost of energy is examined as just the $ that the consumer pays. By that measure, solar, is much more expensive than oil/coal/nuclear for example, and getting it below that cost may be close to impossible.

      But, that price of the coal/oil/nuclear is not the REAL price of that form of energy. Much of the costs are offloaded onto the environments they are drawn from in the form of damage and pollution. Other costs are offloaded onto the people who live where the resources are mined in the form of land loss and damage, and low wages.

      It is also offloaded as risk. Nuclear is cleaner, but you have greater risk. Risk of an attack/failure at the reactor, risk of what will happen to the waste for the next several thousand generations, risk with the radioactive fuel materials falling into the wrong hands. Etc. These may have higher or lower probabilities but they exist.

      So yes, coal/oil/nuclear are cheaper in dollars and cents, but not cheaper when you factor in the hidden costs to society as a whole.

      Moral of the story: as we move to cleaner energy sources in the future, the dollar cost may be higher, but there will be fewer hidden costs.

  15. Headline should read... by TonyXL · · Score: 2

    "YOU Pay For Solar Energy Research" (whether you wanted to or not).

  16. Real solar, from Applied Materials by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Last year, I heard a VP from Applied Materials give a talk on their solar panel operation. Applied Materials is a big, profitable company that makes a big fraction of the world's semiconductor and flat panel fab gear. Key points:

    • From their perspective as a semiconductor wafer fab equipment builder, this looks like a nice business. Their costs are going down, and the competition (oil, gas, etc.) has costs that are going up. The market is nowhere near saturation. They see big profits in the near future.
    • Charts of costs per watt vs time show a steady decline, like most other things in semiconductors. Their costs fell below other energy sources in very sunny areas around 2006-2007.
    • Half the installed cost of a solar system is installation. They need better technology at that end than "a guy with a pickup truck". They're working on panels that form roof, wall, or window sections, rather than just being bolt-ons.
    • Applied Materials is ready to build a "gigawatt fab", one that makes a gigawatt worth of panels a year. (One such fab could build enough panels to power most of Southern California's air conditioning load in a decade.)
    • Their solar technology is derived from their flat-panel display technology, where they make five square meters of panel at a time.
    • Applied Materials has much better quality control than many solar-only companies, because their technology is derived from IC and display fab, where the allowed defect level is very low. Their whole production process is heavily automated and monitored under tight software control, using Applied Materials software and sensors from semiconductor fab control.
    • It takes two years worth of energy output to pay back the energy used to make an Applied Materials solar panel. They think this can be brought down to six months worth of energy.
    • They bought a "roll to roll" process company because they think that approach might eventually be cheaper, but for now, the flat-panel like fab is better. They see R&D as steady process improvement, as with semiconductors. If somebody develops a breakthrough technology, they'll buy or license it and make it work in volume. If not, they'll continue to improve their processes.
    • Their business goal is to have 75% of the world's solar panels made by Applied Materials machinery.

    This was a big-company manufacturing executive talking. He never mentioned "green" or "eco" anything; he focused on volume and profitability. That's encouraging. This is finally happening for real.