Slashdot Mirror


From "Happy Hacking" to "Screw You"

tquid writes "Trying to bridge the digital divide in Canada's poorest postal code, a principled group of hackers adopt "open source"-based technology spun off from an MIT project. Then the terms on the hardware are changed, and changed again, and then firmware to lock out the frustrated group's software is installed, screwing them out of their investment and many hours of development work."

243 comments

  1. Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wasn't this was originally developed as an open source project at MIT? I imagine their original agreement with MIT probably precluded this very thing (locking it down). If not, I would be very disappointed with MIT.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by mrvan · · Score: 5, Funny
      If they used the MIT license they're pretty much screwed...

      It is a permissive license, meaning that it permits reuse within proprietary software ...

    2. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      No, they aren't screwed.

      They still have all the original RoofNet code. And they should, if they aren't complete idiots, have the modifications that they themselves made in source control.

      The software is still as free as ever.

    3. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Applekid · · Score: 1

      The problem is the firmware. They purchased equipment from Meraki that had the EULA changed but would have been ok had the company not silently upgraded all the units to the newer, locked down firmware. The original RoofNet code is good, but what about the existing hardware that now can't run anything but Meraki's official code?

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    4. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Part of the problem is that the company (Meraki) pushed firmware upgrades to all the units, including older boxes purchased before their revised licensing model. The new firmware locks down the units, making it impossible to hack them and impossible to load custom firmware and bypass the new locks.

      That's the really sleezy part--changing your licensing terms for new sales is annoying for loyal customers, but obviously can't apply retroactively to goods you've already sold. But this company is doing just that--trying to retroactively impose their new licensing and payment model onto units that were already sold under an open, permissive terms.

      So even though they still have the free code, they are now blocked from loading the code onto their own purchased hardware. It's probably not impossible--a talented hacker can maybe bypass the firmware and load custom code again... but of course they shouldn't have to. It seems to me that Meraki has more or less broken into customer devices without permission and made unrequested changes--rather illegal as far as I know.

    5. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is exactly what I'm thinking. Meraki's stuff is all based on the MIT open source stuff. So why can't this group just go back to the original source and build the part that someone else made proprietary.

    6. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Wodin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Can they not use jtag to fix them?

      --
      -- Wodin
    7. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Isn't that illegal? Updating firmware to enforce a new EULA that otherwise would not have applied? Sounds Microsoftian to me.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    8. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 4, Informative

      They have their code but they can no longer install it on the devices because the manufacturer has retrospectively revoked their access. As has often been pointed out, just having the source code doesn't mean you have control over the computer you bought. This is exactly the issue GPLv3 is designed to deal with.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    9. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by wertarbyte · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is that the company (Meraki) pushed firmware upgrades to all the units, including older boxes purchased before their revised licensing model. The new firmware locks down the units, making it impossible to hack them and impossible to load custom firmware and bypass the new locks.

      I strongly oppose network equipment that updates itself without giving me the choice of averting that. It's the equivalent of closed source software, only in hardware. Business plans change, and you never know what your former trusted partner is up to in the future. There's also the danger of someone hijacking the update system; This would have been possible with earlier version of the FON(era) upgrade procedure (as pointed out on my website): Imagine having a botnet consisting of all FON/Meraki units ever installed anywhere on this planet. Users (at least the ones FON units are marketed to) won't probably notice, since there windows PC isn't getting slower and no antivirus software will ever detect the compromised router in their network. That's why I cannot trust systems in my network I do not have root access to, especially those that take a central part in it like a router.

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    10. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They have broken a contract. The units were sold with software as is under one contract. They then retroactively broke the contract with those customers by changing the firmware, effectively changing the contract with the customer, after the point of sale. This is illegal. Lawsuits for millions should follow. If the software was GPL (or such), then what they are doing really flies in the face of the FSF. A dozen very powerful lawyers could be standing on their necks within the hour.

    11. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, what a world we live in.

      "Hmmm, sounds like something Microsoft would do. I bet it's illegal."

    12. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by toddestan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They probably slapped a EULA on the installer for the updated firmware along the lines of "By installing this upgrade you agree to ...." in which I would assume they attempted to cover their asses with a bunch of lawyerly speech that no one paid any attention to. While it's certainly very shady, it's probably not illegal.

    13. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      They probably slapped a EULA on the installer for the updated firmware along the lines of "By installing this upgrade you agree to ...." in which I would assume they attempted to cover their asses with a bunch of lawyerly speech that no one paid any attention to. While it's certainly very shady, it's probably not illegal.

      For it to be valid though the user has to have the option of installing the update. TFA says it was automatically updated though: "Today I learn that my failure is due to the fact that Meraki has automatically updated the software on all of the units (including legacy, such as ours) so that you cannot install a different firmware on it, at all."

      Falcon
    14. Re:Anyone know the details of the MIT agreement? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Isn't that illegal?

      Not at all.

      Updating firmware to enforce a new EULA that otherwise would not have applied?

      The firmware has nothing to do with the new EULA. It's an irrelevant coincidence. They could have a nice friendly EULA that says "Happy Hacking" and still send out a firmware that disables further updates. The fact that they decided to remove a feature (the commands used for updating flash) doesn't require any kind of an agreement. You'll note that Microsoft doesn't change their EULA every time they release a security update that changes a file or removes a feature in Windows.

      What's more, Meraki is in a strong position, if they have to go to court. They merely removed a feature that made it EASY to update firmware. Now, customers are just required to do it the standard way... pulling out the chips.

      (IANAL)
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  2. So talk to them? by Anonymous+Conrad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So why not talk to Meraki and see if you can work something out rather than whining about it on your blog?

    1. Re:So talk to them? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      Have you ever tried talking technology with a lawyer? Talking nuclear physics with a pig is more rewarding.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:So talk to them? by eokyere · · Score: 4, Informative
      because biswas and his ilk are a bunch of cunts. if you lack background on this, well here goes:

      Meraki initially offered robustly featured indoor and outdoor nodes (which act as routers or repeaters) for $50 and $100. The plan was to allow people to become "micro" service providers in regions where cost is an issue or where broadband connections are scarce. The gear appealed to everyone from low-income housing to ISPs looking to add Wi-Fi as an added value service. Meraki quickly became a tech media and blog darling. Then last October the company suddenly unveiled a new three-tier pricing system that jacked up the price of hardware as much as three times for some users. The move bumped some of the functionality users were getting on the cheap (user authentication, billing) into higher tiers. The move annoyed users with deployed networks in the Meraki forums -- who say they were blindsided by the changes.
      http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Open-Mesh-Picks-Up-Where-Meraki-Left-Off-92532/ i bought 12 of those 50 buck units to setup a small test project in Ghana, only to have meraki turn around and say "fuck you" to me ... so meraki, fuck you too
    3. Re:So talk to them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like the happy hacking project WAS the reason they did all that.
      So I'm pretty sure there won't be much use in talking to them

    4. Re:So talk to them? by LihTox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So why not talk to Meraki and see if you can work something out rather than whining about it on your blog?

      Because (a) now we all know* to watch out for Meraki, and (2) Meraki might be more willing to fix a public stink than a private complaint.

      *(and knowing is half the battle. GI J... oh wait. sorry.)

    5. Re:So talk to them? by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      There are three types of IP lawyers:

      • Good, Honest IP Lawyers - These are usually unemployed, or stuck in low paying academic jobs
      • IP lawyers which profit off the fear of their clients. These guys lie about the requirements and risks of various IP issues, charge dozens of billable hours to write copyright header comments for the company's source code, tell companies that if they run their product on Linux they'll be forced to open all the code, etc. They usually also dabble in helping companies file bogus patents.
      • IP lawyers which help their clients come up with a fake cover for their real licensing motives. That's what we have here. They generate endless legalese to try and dissuade a company's customers from behaving in a way that is inconvenient for the company.


      If you want to have a "rewarding" conversation with an IP lawyer, you need to figure out which bucket they are in so you can understand the motivation behind their selected language. If you assume "logic", or "reason" are involved you may as well just bang your head against the wall.
    6. Re:So talk to them? by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Have you ever tried talking technology with a lawyer? Talking nuclear physics with a pig is more rewarding. Well, sure, you get bacon out of it! :)
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    7. Re:So talk to them? by bhima · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So now I'm curious how much work would it be to roll out an open version of the hardware? None of this sounds like it's particularly special... I say this as an software engineer (I only do embedded stuff) not as a hardware engineer. I'll bet a few grad students could whip up an equivalent board (or a daughter board for a mass produced product) in short order (particularly having an existing board to begin with).

      So... Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke and move on to a different platform.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    8. Re:So talk to them? by billcopc · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Yep, honesty never pays. That's the foundation of U.S. politics and economic doctrine.

      However there is a non-financial benefit to honesty: satisfaction. Problem is, the legal industry is extremely competitive and does not give benefactors the time of day.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    9. Re:So talk to them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without exception the way to have a "rewarding" discussion with a type 2 or type 3 IP lawyer involes repeatedly applying a clue by 4 with great force. You may even want to upgrade to a clue by six to ensure it doesn't break. For discussing with the type 1 lawyers you should start by talking to them and then determine if the clue by four is necessary.

    10. Re:So talk to them? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      You can probably take this to a small claims court (or whatever your local equivalent is.) Get a judgement for your $600 back, and tell Meraki they can come and collect the hardware from you within 6 months, else it gets dumped.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    11. Re:So talk to them? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Nah. Just duct-tape them to a chair dangling over a cliff, and I guarantee your conversation will be productive.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    12. Re:So talk to them? by TechForensics · · Score: 1

      Never try to discuss nuclear physics with a pig. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.

      Then again, it might be worth $200.00 per hour to annoy a lawyer, if that's all you wanted...

      --
      Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
    13. Re:So talk to them? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Now that would be a mistake. Take it to court not only to recover the money invested in the hardware but also the time and money lost in deploying the hardware and now required to seek and deploy alternate hardware ie. send them to the wall.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    14. Re:So talk to them? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      I suspect that would change it from a three-hours-including-preparation-time small claims case into a full blown lawyers-and-discovery suit.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    15. Re:So talk to them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an open hardware platform to go along with the open software platform.

      The hardware available right now is built by Accton, and sold in a plain brown box, with no logo on the unit. You can buy them for $50 each from http://open-mesh.com/, or for $40 in packs of 20. You can build a product out of them if you want, logo them, even put a nice little retail slip cover over them if that's what your application requires.

      But, the cool bit: The SKU is open. So, you can call up Accton in China and order a shipping container or two full if you want to, at a cost a bit over $30 a unit (10,000 units quantity). This is really interesting, it's a bit like if Delta let you order the Meraki SKU - or if Apple's contract manufacturer allowed you to order up a batch of iPhones, FOB Taiwan.

      And, the platform is a reference design, so if you don't like Accton or can find a better price elsewhere, you could have someone else build it too.

      Open software, open hardware, open manufacturing. Very cool.

  3. Illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    FTFA:

    This is expecially bad form (and probably illegal) given that their stuff was all orginally developed under an open source licence. How can this possibly be illegal? AFAICS it's MIT-licenced code plus some GPL v2 and there's no Tivoization clause in v2.
    1. Re:Illegal? by TheLinuxSRC · · Score: 5, Informative

      Software licensing isn't the issue; updating his legacy hardware which he purchased under a specific license with specific rights without his knowledge or consent is the issue. Especially when this new firmware update (which he did not authorize but was automatically applied by Meraki despite having been sold with a different EULA) effectively bricks his hardware. This raises the question - Whose hardware is it?

    2. Re:Illegal? by pavera · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It depends on the original EULA that they obtained the hardware/software under. Under the original license under which they obtained the hardware there was no "you cannot hack this" clause, now if the original EULA has a clause about "we can update this EULA at any time and the changes will be applied retroactively", and a court buys that that is a legally binding term (I can't believe it would, because what is to stop any proprietary company from getting a huge installed base by giving something away, and then changing the EULA and saying "oh, to continue using this software, you now owe us $1000"). If those 2 things are true (the original EULA has that clause, and a court allows them to retroactively apply additional restrictions), then it is not illegal. If either of those is false, then it is. They purchased the hardware under the original EULA which permitted changing firmware. The company cannot retroactively apply a new EULA with more restrictive terms to hardware that has already been purchased I don't think, unless a court can be convinced that you can change a contract mid stream. Again if they can, it would allow all sorts of shenanigans by proprietary vendors, heck even open source developers could apply this to GPL'd software and retroactively "revoke" the license.

    3. Re:Illegal? by grahammm · · Score: 1

      It depends on the original EULA that they obtained the hardware/software under. Under the original license under which they obtained the hardware there was no "you cannot hack this" clause, Since when did you license hardware which you purchase? If you rent it then the supplier can impose conditions (a licence) but when you purchase it, it is yours to do with as you please.
    4. Re:Illegal? by FLEB · · Score: 1

      I've got a mostly-bricky TiVo that might fit the bill.

      (Rant on: Luckily, I bought the thing second-hand for a fiver at a yard sale, otherwise I'd be more annoyed than I am. Really, the thing that bugs me most are the TiVo "hacking" boards that somehow equate talking about ways to get a device with a tuner, a hard drive, and the clear ability buried within to record A onto B actually doing it, without shelling out monthly "keep the magic working" fees to TiVo as somehow being "theft of service". As it stands, I do use the "Pause live TV" features, and I'm just holding out for next yard sale season to cobble together a Myth-or-similar box and scrap the thing.)

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    5. Re:Illegal? by WiFly · · Score: 1

      Looks like what these guys have done is now illegal or was it done before the change by Meraki? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee_tk7lkpdI (The Meraki Outdoor) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gulOprdutkE (The Meraki Mini)

  4. It's just same old evil corporate bastards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    that seem to run many big companies these days .... personally, what I don't understand is why people can't see that's it's not only just bad engineering, but, in essence, inhumane mismanagement.

  5. Vendor lockin is a myth by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What did they expect? Seriously. The company is taking a loss on each box at $50. They were probably hoping to make some profit off of the software service side, but these hackers come along and provide the service for free on the same hardware. So Meraki goes and raises HW prices to overcome their losses and the hackers get whiny about the high cost of the new HW. So Meraki then does all it can do at that point, force the HW to only run the special software and try to get back into the market.

    The hackers (especially those who put some kind of trust in "openness") are the ones who ruined the municipal network for everyone. They showed a clear lack of political savvy and it ended up turning what could have been a boon for both the city and Meraki into a political morass which ends up with no one at all happy.

    1. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1, Troll

      Speaking of not being politically savvy. A non-technocrat positision on Slashdot? Come on, really?

    2. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by lordofthechia · · Score: 4, Informative

      So Meraki then does all it can do at that point, force the HW to only run the special software and try to get back into the market. Well besides tripling the prices of units (which the company is free to do all day), the pushed firmware upgrades that crippled existing units preventing them from being hacked (which is one of the main gripes in the blog).
      --
      Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
    3. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They sold the first taste of Heroin at less than cost in the hopes of locking people into an ongoing profit stream, and their hopes didn't materialize. That's terrible. Those poor business people.

      The hackers did show a lack of savvy. They were trying to help people who have no means to pay, and they put themselves in a position where they were relying on a for-profit corporation to achieve their goals. That's just stupid. Make deals with the devil, end up on fire. They should have known better than to leave themselves vulnerable to external leverage like that.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    4. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Intron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why are they taking a loss? Fon sells a router for $50 and looks like an interesting alternative. They make money selling access to the customer network to non-members.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    5. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What did they expect? They probably expected to pay the list price for the quoted product.

      The company is taking a loss on each box at $50. That's the company's problem, of course. They are of course free to charge more or less for the devices whenever they want.

      So Meraki then does all it can do at that point, force the HW to only run the special software and try to get back into the market. Ah... so I see you missed the part where Meraki pushed firmware upgrades to existing units? They basically forced new software onto older units which lock them out. So, in effect, they sold a device with certain promises (namely, "open!") at a certain price, and then afterwards log into the devices and load new software to prevent the owners of the hardware from exercising the rights that were granted to them under the original contract terms. As far as I know, logging-into someone else's hardware (and then changing the software so that the hardware is now under your control) without their permission is illegal.

      The hackers (especially those who put some kind of trust in "openness") are the ones who ruined the municipal network for everyone. They showed a clear lack of political savvy and it ended up turning what could have been a boon for both the city and Meraki into a political morass which ends up with no one at all happy. I disagree. If the company was indeed selling the units at a loss, then that is their own stupidity. Customers taking advantage of what you offer ("open, hackable, access point for $50!") is their legal right and frankly is sensible. I disagree that giving into corporate demands at every turn is "political savvy". The company screwed them (and possibly broke the law), so they are warning others not to deal with that company, and it seems like they are going to try to find other hardware suppliers in the future.
    6. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by mgblst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How the hell would they now whether or not the company was taking a loss on each box? Is this something I need to research on everything I buy? You seem to consider this ok? Maybe I should check out the details on my monitor, to make sure that I am not supposed to make up some of the income for the company by visiting certain websites.

      If some company screws up and sells my "faulty" goods, then how is this any of my responsibility. And how does this allow them to go in and change the goods they already sold me?

      I am having great difficulty understanding your logic on this one.

    7. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      What the hell are you on about? If that was an attempt at a joke, it was appalling.

      Yes, how dare anyone deviate from the usual Slashdot line? How dare anyone think about things in a pragmatic fashion?

      If you're uncomfortable with your viewpoint being challenged, either sit and think for a while and come up with a reasoned counter-argument, or just shut up.

    8. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Gailin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is it the hackers fault that Meraki instituted a poor business model? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki is incapable of finding a profit model that suits their needs? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki is retroactively applying their license by updating boxes without notice or consent?

      What a company hopes for and the reality of what they get is not my problem or concern. They are from fricking MIT. If they can't do a simple business analysis to come up with a workable pricing and support model, then what the hell are they doing staying in business. This is elementary level thinking, so no, the eggheads from MIT get no sympathy from me.

      G

      --
      I wish there was a fscking blue pill
    9. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fon is backed by some very big investors, including eBay, Google and two big venture capital companies, so they have money to burn. The FON hype has dried up almost completely since they stopped giving away the routers (necessary action because the free hardware became too popular with the hackers.) It is not apparent whether FON is currently making a profit, what their business plan is and if it can work.

    10. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Broofa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're blaming the "hackers" for this? This was a project for a poor community with a limited, fixed budget. The hackers got involved because volunteer efforts were likely the only way this project was going to happen. The only thing that changed was that Meraki switched from one unaffordable model to a different, still-unaffordable one, and in the process alienated a group of hackers with a vested interest in helping them improve their product. Perhaps Meraki should have instead open-sourced their Dashboard code and tried to leverage the efforts of people who are able and willing to help them make it better. And at the same time take a long, hard look at their business model. Because it's threatened by a bunch of hobbyists with some spare time on their hands, they're going to be in real trouble. Rather than trying to extort (too strong a word?) subscription fees for their software, perhaps they would be better served by slightly raising the price on the hardware (which they did) and offering support/services contracts to those customers who can afford them. It's a pretty safe bet that these other customers are going to be evaluating vendors not just on the hardware and software, but also on how open their code is, how robust the user and developer communities are, and whether or not they can count on the vendor (Meraki in this case) to act in their best interests in the future.

    11. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A company selling hardware at a loss trying to recover that loss with software sales is their problem. Not mine. Printer manufacturers do that, too, selling their ink printers at a loss to cash in with cartridges. Of course, third party vendors quickly tried to push their own cardridges onto the market, along with refill kits, both of which are being battled fiercly by the vendors of the printers who want to protect their business model. You now have chips in cartridges, protected by law against being duplicated... and so on.

      It is a vendor lock in attempt. Try to sell the original part cheaply to win a customer, then milk the customer when he got the item and needs "fuel" to keep it running. Whenever something like this happens, you see a company get all defensive and try their utmost to keep their business model working.

      This of course raises the question, why don't they just raise the price to match the cost? You offered that question yourself, why didn't they just raise the price by 70 bucks to make a profit with the original piece of hardware? The answer is simple: There's more money in milking locked in customers.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by MrEd · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I recognize Meraki's defence from one of my favorite movies...

      "His girlfriend gave up her toe! She though we'd be getting million dollars! Iss not fair!"

      --

      Wah!

    13. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by RomulusNR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You forget that in the free market the customer is at the mercy of the company. The company can do whatever it wants in order to save money; the customer is the enemy and must be prevented from doing the same, lest it lead to the company losing money.

      --
      Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
    14. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Meraki then does all it can do at that point, force the HW to only run the special software and try to get back into the market.

      In other news, clock makers have decided that you should pay for the service of having an alarm wake you up every morning, and so to enforce their new business model, they go into the homes of everyone they already sold a "free" alarm clock to and "upgrade" them to disable the alarm.

    15. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by wertarbyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fon has also tried to lock out hackers from their hardware - although the moment they sell it, it's not their hardware anymore. There are still some hacks that work and give you SSH access, check my website about it. Although my latest hack ("kolofonium") does not work with the latest firmware, there are still many systems using it: http://stefans.datenbruch.de/lafonera/kolofonium-chart.png So you can guess how many of the sold FON spots may still be active; FON managed to alienate many advanced users that wished to participate but were locked out of their routers.

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    16. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by orpheum · · Score: 1
      It's not just the hardware.

      but what prevented us from going any further with it was the pricing model that they decided to adopt - $5/node/month for access to the "dashboard" - the real-time monitoring software that they were developing for managing the networks.

      $5 a month to be able to use the dashboard? Come on, really? And then Meraki changes the EULA and FORCIBLY updates the software on your piece of hardware which you actually are no longer using their software on. That's not fair, plain and simple.

    17. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't you mean "In a fascist society like this one"?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    18. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The company is taking a loss on each box at $50.

      And? Your point?

      If they unwisely chose to sell them at a loss - TFB. They have every right to change the terms and price on new units, but IMO they have committed an outright crime (computer trespass, at the very least) by forcing new firmware on already-purchased units.


      but these hackers come along and provide the service for free on the same hardware.

      Any company that hasn't learned that lesson yet, deserves their fate. If your business model critically depends on something that a third party can provide cheaper (or free), your customers will use the cheaper version.


      They showed a clear lack of political savvy

      Riiiight - Because we engineers normally have legendary people-skills and political-prowess?

      Meraki presented a problem to people who live for solving them. Politics? Gimme a break. If you add non-game rules to the puzzle, someone will find a way to take them out to achieve a better solution.

    19. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by AlamedaStone · · Score: 3, Funny

      Potayto, potahto...

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    20. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't think anyone has a problem with their raising prices.Companies do that all the time,bug deal.The problem is pulling the asshat "we'll just send out a stealth update and brick the old machines" bit.


      Look at it this way-say Gateway is losing money competing with Dell.They realize they sold their machines in the past too cheap trying to play Dell's ball game.Nobody would have a problem with them raising the price of new models,or even trying to offer incentives to trade in your old Gateway on a newer more expensive model.But if they pushed out an update that bricked all the old models to where you could only run an ad supported version of Vista Basic on them,yes people would have a shit fit,and rightly so.


      In this case it has an extra waft of shit stink because they pushed this as a solution for the poor,whom are typically those who can least afford this kind of asshatery,and then bent them over when the vulture capitalists got involved.So I'm sorry,but this is a big "fu" and I wouldn't trust this company as far as I can throw them.But that is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    21. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by mellon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Your claim that they are taking a loss at $50/unit doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, if that's true, then why is it that the open-mesh guys are able to sell an identical unit for $50? The problem isn't that they were taking a loss - it's that they weren't making enough profit. Secondly, consider Linksys routers. You can routinely buy these for $50 a pop, and they contain a lot more hardware than the Meraki. If Linksys is making a decent living in this business, why can't Meraki?

      The bottom line is that Meraki has a losing business plan, and that's why we're seeing all this thrashing. There's no way they can make money fast enough to satisfy their investors at $50/pop, they need to monetize their dashboard system, they need ads, and that's just not what most end-users want. All of this stupid price model tweaking stuff they're doing is almost certainly motivated by promises they made to investors that they subsequently couldn't keep.

      If they are in fact poisoning the firmware (I have two Meraki minis, but haven't had a chance to confirm that their firmware is poisoned), I'm pretty sure this is a felony, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble to prove it and fix it. Given that the open mesh boxes are $50 each, I can just buy two and replace the two Merakis I bought as a test project, and I'll come out ahead. It's too bad for the people who bought hundreds or thousands of these devices, though. For them, it might be worth consulting a lawyer.

    22. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Mr.+Beatdown · · Score: 1

      You seem to forget that in a free and competitive market, all rational actors are free to pursue their own self interest. That means anyone can pursue their rights and is free to seek a competitive advantage. This is, thankfully, still a two way street. If It were a one way street, SCO would still be in business. Competition works for all those who provide value.

      --
      My fellow Americans, let's restore the death penalty for child rapists. Let's do it . . . for the children.
    23. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by wertarbyte · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt that meraki is making a loss by selling a 50 USD access point. 50$ is roughly 32 Euros, and I can buy access points for that price here in germany just fine. So don't tell me that a company that orders a few thousend units cannot meet that price.

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    24. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Is it the hackers fault that Meraki instituted a poor business model? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki is incapable of finding a profit model that suits their needs? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki is retroactively applying their license by updating boxes without notice or consent?

      Fond memories of the CueCat come to mind ;)

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    25. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by sjames · · Score: 1

      Put another way, Meraki chose to offer their hardware at an unprofitable price point and the additional incentive of openness. They hoped (in vain) that customers would be convinced to buy based on the promise of openness but ultimately would choose not to exercise their freedoms. These hackers took them up on their offer. Meraki, realizing that they were losing money, then raised their prices to a profitable level and ceased offering a fully open unit (fair enough). The hackers decided to say no thanks to the locked down hardware at the higher price point (also fair enough) and implement their own solution (again, fair enough).

      Meraki then effectively substituted an inferior product after the sale was complete (the moral equivilent of breaking into every home and switching the product out) without even offering a refund (certainly not fair enough).

      Meraki is free to charge whatever they want and limit the features in any way they want ON NEW SALES. Potential customers are free to accept the offer or go elsewhere. Meraki is NOT free to change the terms on hardware that was already sold because that is NO LONGER THEIR PROPERTY.

    26. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by jc42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is a vendor lock in attempt. Try to sell the original part cheaply to win a customer, then milk the customer when he got the item and needs "fuel" to keep it running.

      Except that this isn't what TFA describes. The company sold a product, and then quietly sabotaged their customers' purchased products. This is something very different from trying to "milk" customers for some consumable "fuel". They intentionally damaged the equipment so it couldn't be used in the way it was advertised and the customer was using it.

      To use the wornout auto analogy, it's more like your auto dealer sent people around to your house in the middle of the night to sabotage your car, in an attempt to increase your repair bills or persuade you to do a trade-in. Except that in this case, the saboteurs were all too clearly in the pay of the company that sold you the goods.

      I do wonder if this is legal in Canada or BC. You'd think that there'd be some laws that would cover such sabotage. With all the laws on the books, was this sort of crime somehow missed?

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    27. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meraki is also backed by Google.

    28. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by with+a+'c' · · Score: 1

      I disagree. If the company was indeed selling the units at a loss, then that is their own stupidity. Customers taking advantage of what you offer ("open, hackable, access point for $50!") is their legal right and frankly is sensible. I disagree that giving into corporate demands at every turn is "political savvy". The company screwed them (and possibly broke the law), so they are warning others not to deal with that company, and it seems like they are going to try to find other hardware suppliers in the future. This is exactly how free markets are suppose to work. When a vendor violates the trust of the customers the customers advertise this and the vendor looses new customers. Customers can always "not buy" the product and buy something else.
    29. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Considering that OpenMesh is offering a very similar device for $49 each, very probably near cost on it, I seriously doubt that
      they were selling them at a loss for $50. If they were, they're getting screwed on the embedded boards SERIOUSLY.

      A three times jump in pricing from $50 implies price gouging. An increase to $75 would probably be realistic if they were selling
      below cost or at cost. More troubling is the updating of the firmware without the user's permission. If they're not subscribers
      in the company's service and if the units were not phrased as LEASED, the units were sold. This means they don't have the right
      to update the firmware the way they did. Technically, it's under the anti-hacking laws of the country and actionable as all
      get out.

      All in all, this is a hang your head in shame in the corner moment for the company.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    30. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue wasn't so much partnering with a for-profit, but not being smart about how they did it.

      If you just take a for-profit's product and retool it, then don't be upset if they discontinue the model and leave you stuck - they aren't under any obligation to sell it forever.

      On the other hand, writing up a contract between an open-source and for-profit organization where each benefits and has defined responsibilities should be safe. Perhaps the open-source develops the design/code, and the for-profit can make a killing selling it to companies with deep pockets but has to allow cheap/free use for certain purposes. Or you could just develop full blueprints and make them open-source, and pay per unit for actual production.

      For-profit companies are often more efficient and can achieve higher economies of scale. On the other hand, they don't share your mission, so you're an idiot if you just lock yourself in without any legal protection.

      In this particular case things are a bit more sleezy since the company didn't just stop supplying new equipment, but they went out of their way to break already-sold stuff as well.

    31. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      You forget that in the free market the customer is at the mercy of the company. The company can do whatever it wants in order to save money; the customer is the enemy and must be prevented from doing the same, lest it lead to the company losing money. You seem to have confused free market economics with having no respect for private property. Regulating the market won't fix this particular case; taking the company to court for messing with other people's property without the owner's knowledge or consent will.
    32. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      "FON managed to alienate many advanced users that wished to participate but were locked out of their routers." They alienated those people for good reason: they advertise how safe their router is on their site. They can't promise any safety if they're allowing people to change how it works. The device was never intended as a tech toy for geeks to mess with.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    33. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly how free markets are suppose to work.

      Well, no, they're supposed to work "as advertised" and "without fraud" and so on, but given that nobody's perfectly rational and everyone lies, this will have to do.

    34. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean "In a fascist society like this one"?

      fascism /fæzm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
      -noun
      1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Exactly how in this situation is the government forcing suppressing opposition and criticism or regulating commerce? I don't get it. This seems like pretty much the opposite to me -- companies and people are doing whatever they want in commerce without the government intervening at all.
    35. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by wertarbyte · · Score: 1

      They alienated those people for good reason: they advertise how safe their router is on their site.

      So they lied. Great.

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    36. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Hell, even Linksys figured out that it was better to go along with the folks that write alternate firmware (I run Tomato on a WRT54G V4 myself) than try to lock them out. Of course, it took them a while to grok that. Linksys wouldn't have made a penny from me otherwise: their stock firmware is something of a joke in comparison.

      In the modern world it is the firmware that distinguishes one piece of commodity hardware from another. People seeking to improve upon your stock firmware may be doing you a favor by giving your customers even more reason to buy your products. When viewed from the proper perspective, they're making your product more valuable, not less.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    37. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      You forget that in the free market the customer is at the mercy of the company.

      And vice-versa.

      The company can do whatever it wants in order to save money; the customer is the enemy and must be prevented from doing the same, lest it lead to the company losing money.

      In a free market contract is king. The company can NOT violate its contracts and get away with it. The contracts are enforcible in whatever legal system applies. Further (even in a market-anarchy) those who violate contracts are likely to be the subject of published warnings from the contract partners they shafted.

      Which is exactly what we see here.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    38. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Watts+Martin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hope you'll forgive me for gently tweaking you on the Markets Are Always Your Friend! speech, but your assertion that "If it were a one way street, SCO would still be in business" is highly amusing. You should know, of course, that SCO is in fact still in business, and has recently been tendered a buyout offer by a private equity firm that claims to be willing to pump up to $100M into the company.

      Markets with rational actors may function perfectly, but markets rarely provide everyone with sufficient information to act rationally -- and something that tends to be ignored by much "textbook economy talk" is how often it can be in one actor's best interest to try to prevent other actors from obtaining sufficient information to make informed choices. Consumers benefit from a wide choice of producers, but producers benefit from consumers only being able to choose their product.

      It's easy to talk about "two way streets," but very often our business transactions aren't that at all: the companies we buy from set all the terms of our sales, and as consumers, our only option is to accept their terms or walk away. (For many workers, this is true of employment contracts, too.) In the case of this article's subject, Meraki essentially changed the terms after the sale, making actual changes to the router which changed the viability of the "micro-ISP" business model they were explicitly selling their product for. If it was truly a "two way street," it wouldn't have been in Meraki's self-interest to screw a percentage of their customers -- the conditions that allowed them to make that business decision include the difficulty in their customers switching to another competing service. And despite what the Big Golden Book of Economics might suggest, this is not some kind of strange and wild condition like nothing we've ever seen before in the business world.

    39. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Aww, c'mon. "Anonymous Coward"? That's downright quotable.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    40. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      You forget that in the free market the customer is at the mercy of the company. The company can do whatever it wants in order to save money; the customer is the enemy and must be prevented from doing the same, lest it lead to the company losing money.

      Even in a free market businesses can't breach a contract whenever they want.

      Falcon
    41. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      "If you just take a for-profit's product and retool it, then don't be upset if they discontinue the model and leave you stuck - they aren't under any obligation to sell it forever." But that has nothing to do with reality. They didn't just discootinue the model, they broke all the models that had been previously sold and that currently *belonged* to people out in the world.

      The car analogy would be this: If you buy a car, rebuild the suspension, and then discover that the manufacturer has remotely destroyed the engine.

    42. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      "The device was never intended as a tech toy for geeks to mess with." I have never understood what the manufacturers *intent* for a product's use has to do with the use to which an owner puts their property. I don't see that merely manufacturing a product results in any legal or ethical standing from which to tell the owner of a product anything; certainly no more standing than a vendor selling hot dogs on a street corner. Get over it. It isn't yours anymore after you've sold it.

    43. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      You'll note that def #1 refers to an initial capitalized letter. It goes on:

      2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

      So it isn't the government, as in def #1, it is the company that wants to sell and yet still own their product. They don't even want to give up control after making the sale. The word, as defined, does fit the behavior. Thanks for playing...

    44. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Whoa. C'mon, the better car anlogy would be that the vendor secretly installs some special engine (after you bought the car) so you can only drive with his more expensive fuel, after promising you a cheap car that could run any fuel.

      But back on topic. Basically, the vendor lock-in deal was what they attempted. They tried to sell a product that sounds good, hoping that nobody gets the idea to use it as advertised. It's not like there ain't printer manufacturers that do the same (and then you "suddenly" find out that the compatible ink ain't so compatible since it can't be made compatible without breaking some law or patent).

      Other examples exist, where such a move actually worked. You can see a lot of Linux distributions that live off the idea that yes, you can technically get it for free, but enough people will want the support and pay us for it. I know it's not very popular here to bash linux distris (the first one to make a csh or ash joke gets kill -9'ed), but do you think they wouldn't start trying a similar stunt if it didn't work, and people just downloaded their distris, then get support from other parties? You'd see documentation vanish faster than you can mirror it. Do you think all those sodas would still run those "free music downloads with every 5th can" deals if people really used it in masses? This is a gamble for the company, and usually it works out.

      They gambled, and they lost. But instead of accepting defeat and changing their business model, they try to cling to a business model that doesn't work.

      Btw, and of course totally unrelated, is there some kind of Godwin's Law for steering a discussion towards the RIAA?

      Anyway. What's left now is ruins. This is a complete lose-lose situation. The network can't be done, and the company has damage in the millions (not to mention goodwill), and as you already noticed, with a lawsuit dangling over their heads.

      But if anything can be learned from the desaster, it's that you should never trust a deal that's too good to be true. It usually is.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Other examples exist, where such a move actually worked. You can see a lot of Linux distributions that live off the idea that yes, you can technically get it for free, but enough people will want the support and pay us for it. I know it's not very popular here to bash linux distris (the first one to make a csh or ash joke gets kill -9'ed), but do you think they wouldn't start trying a similar stunt if it didn't work, and people just downloaded their distris, then get support from other parties?

      Heh. Except that in this case, those "other parties" are the primary companies. Red Hat, Debian, Suse, etc. advertise quite openly that this is exactly what they're doing. Most of the FOSS community supports them, because they're honest about what they're doing (and they contribute valuable stuff back to the code base). After all, business people keep saying that they use IBM/Microsoft because of the customer support. Since linux itself (and the GNU stuff) don't come from the factory with any support, it makes sense that support companies would spring up to offer support to people and companies that don't want or can't afford their own crew of computer geeks.

      What's annoying with this story is that Microsoft has produced the same sort of external-support ecosystem. In this case, MS claims to supply customer support, but it's so crappy that companies will pay other people for the support that MS doesn't actually supply. I have a number of friends who are making a living this way. And note that the support companies generally don't have full access to the source code, which limits what they can do for customers.

      Actually, there's a much better auto analogy than what either of us used. Some histories have been written recently about the story of leaded gasoline. Google for "gasoline history tetraethyl lead" for lots of info. It seems that back in the 1920s, the auto industry knew quite well that ethanol did about as good a job as an anti-knock additive as gasoline history tetraethyl lead. But ethanol was cheap and public domain, while tetraethyl lead was patented and thus only available at a monopoly price from the patent owner (Du Pont). Via the well-known technique of interlocking directorates, the auto and petroleum industries decided to ignore cheap things like ethanol, and sell engines that used leaded gasoline. This had a disastrous effect on public health, but it enriched the bank accounts of those industry's leaders. It was completely open and legal in the US and most of the rest of the world.

      At least in the current story, Meraki didn't change their product so that it poisoned their customers. Though if they did, and they used a patented poison, history says that US courts would probably support them. (At least we'd expect that people here on /. would vociferously support their right to damage their customers' health. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    46. Re:Vendor lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Linksys was swallowed by Cisco, and they make profit though the magic of VOLUMIZATION.

  6. Article text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    (Article loaded very slowly for me, so it will likely be slashdotted soon.)

    I've been following the development of mesh wifi technology for several years now. From the moment I first grokked what was going on with it, it struck me as a great disruptive technology. One of the most successful early projects, and one that I followed with a great deal of interest was MIT's Roofnet project - an implementation of commodity hardware and open source software, built on Linux, which provides wifi coverage for MIT's campus.

    In 2006 a spin-off company named Meraki was formed to develop and commercialize the MIT Roofnet technology. At the time I was on the board of the Vancouver Community Network and had been championing more development of wireless technology. We immediately ordered 9 of the first beta units to try out. The technology was cheap ($50/unit) and it worked but what prevented us from going any further with it was the pricing model that they decided to adopt - $5/node/month for access to the "dashboard" - the real-time monitoring software that they were developing for managing the networks. We decided that this cost was prohibitive for our purposes and the Merakis were shelved.

    In September of 2007 I heard about a group of Vancouver community wifi enthusiasts who were getting together with the goal of setting up community wifi in Canada's poorest neighbourhood. I came out to a meeting and invited along some people whom I know are interested in any project that is about bridging the digital divide. The technology that was trumpeted at that meeting was Meraki. Since my previous brush with them they had changed their pricing structure and now they would let you run a free network (with free access to their dashboard) or a subscription (paid) network for 10% of your charges. We (the group, which came to call itself " FreeTheNet ") were unanimous that the free option was what we wanted to do and we quickly began building out a public network.

    In October Meraki announced that they were changing their pricing model (yet again) and that they would be vastly raising the costs of their hardware (tripling, in fact). I remember going to their website to learn more about what they were doing and their new marketing slogan was something like "Build your business using exciting new technology where the rules of the game keep changing " How ironic; I wish I'd kept a screenshot of that! Under their new system there was no way that we could build out the network we envisioned. At roughly that point, one of our most experienced hackers said "forget Meraki", we're going to write our own firmware and dashboard and promptly started researching that. By late Novermber he was able to demostrate an open routing firmware called B.A.T.M.A.N. running with a mesh helper inside called Robin, that provided the same functionality as the Meraki firmware. This could be installed in the commodity Meraki hardware which greeted you with a friendly and encouraging "happy hacking" when you logged into it via the console.

    Over December and January he worked on adding features that we wanted to our network to have (and that we had previously been encouraging Meraki to build to improve their system - things like per node custom splash screen, enhancements to the dashboard to improve scalability, etc.) All of this was being tested on Meraki hardware because this is what we had spent our money on back when they supported and encouraged the kind of work we were doing.

    Then in February Meraki announced a change to their EULA (End User Licence Agreement) which precluded anyone from changing any of the software that they install on t

  7. Slashdotted by d3ac0n · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Already. Anyone got a cached link?

    --
    Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    1. Re:Slashdotted by calebt3 · · Score: 1, Informative
  8. And, yet again... by Borommakot_15 · · Score: 0, Troll

    No good deed goes unpunished.

    Blame Canada... blame Canada...

    1. Re:And, yet again... by subl33t · · Score: 1, Funny

      Blame MIT... blame MIT...

    2. Re:And, yet again... by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Blame MIT... blame MIT... ... to the tune of Blame Canada.

      (Hey, someone had to post it. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  9. Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by clintp · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Community and city-wide wifi projects everywhere are failing. In general they turned out to be more expensive, more cumbersome, and difficult to manage than originally promised. The county-wide wifi program where I lived stopped development last year because the vendor's pricing model proved unworkable (give away low-speed, sell high speed). Other communities are having similar problems.

    To think that's *not* going to affect the cost of the remaining projects is just silly. Without the volume, the costs are going to go up for the projects that are still out there left undone.

    The rules of the game are *ALWAYS* changing. That's life. We can tell you're upset, but quit your whining.

    --
    Get off my lawn.
    1. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rules of the game are *ALWAYS* changing. That's life. We can tell you're upset, but quit your whining. The only "whiner" here is you - in evidence of this I offer the fact that the O.P.is discussing something that personally impacted him/her while you are just a random uninterested party looking for a moan i.e. a whine.
    2. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you STFU? The prices were promised. It's a contract. You can't change the negotiated terms because you feel like it.

      Scam artists.

    3. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by CompMD · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Community and city-wide wifi projects everywhere are failing." I'm sorry, but those of us who have succeeded don't like being lumped in with the rest.

    4. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by clintp · · Score: 1

      There are isolated successes, true.

      However many more have failed in places like Houston, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Rhode Island, Orlando, Tempe, Portland, and closer to home (for me) Grand Rapids and Oakland County. This list isn't complete, of course. You could ask Earthlink for a better one...

      --
      Get off my lawn.
    5. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      However many more have failed in places like Houston, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Rhode Island, Orlando, Tempe, Portland, and closer to home (for me) Grand Rapids and Oakland County. This list isn't complete, of course. You could ask Earthlink for a better one...

      The project in Houston didn't fail, Earthlink did. They had open access to the power company to negotiate access rights on power line poles, and never even called them. Don't mistake bad business for bad technology.

    6. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by clintp · · Score: 1

      [Now you're splitting hairs like any good software developer: "The software worked fine, it just never deployed because..." -- The project failed.]

      The reason muni wifi didn't deploy as widely as expected, does not change the economics of the situation: the cost of the equipment, software, and administration will not come down until enough volume is produced. And a dozen or so major metropolitan areas represents a lot of volume.

      --
      Get off my lawn.
    7. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Community wireless fails when it is done in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. If a city does it with the intent to blanket the city and pays for it with a trivial amount of tax revenue for the good of the community, it works fine. If a city contracts it out to a company to manage it and pays the company, it works fine. If the city contracts it to a company without paying them and expects the company to cover the costs by selling faster access, it doesn't work at all, however, because 99.999% of people with access to a free network don't care about the speed. If they want fast downloads, they do it from home, work, or the hotel.

      Something else that works well is getting a Linux User Group or similar to go to businesses and offer to set up wireless access for them if they will pay for the DSL connection. It's not hard to blanket a city that way for the cost of a few Linksys or Netgear APs. Most people don't care that it isn't a mesh and they can't freely roam....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The economics of the situation are simple: they hired the world's most incompetent ISP, Earthlink, to manage a network. It's like two trains heading towards each other on the same track: you know from the first second that it can't go well, but you just can't look away.... Earthlink can't even manage their own network, based on the hideous connectivity I experienced. I can't imagine how anyone could have expected them to manage community wireless....

      Add to that the assumption that Earthlink would have to make money (not just break even---they aren't a nonprofit and their stockholders will keep insisting on making more money) by selling a higher tier service. For that to be viable, you have to A. have some nag screen when you first connect that tells people how to get the higher speed connection, B. have two parallel networks so that the "how to get the higher speed connection" is easy enough for people to remember how, and C. make the public network so unbearably slow that people will want the faster network. You should immediately be able to see the fundamental flaws in such a scheme.

      Hiring a company to manage the network can be a good idea, provided that A. the company is competent, B. the company is compensated for the costs of running the network, and C. no policy decisions are made by the company.... If even one of these things is not true, it's going to be a horrible mess.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by CKW · · Score: 1

      Ughhhh, your website is completely unusable without Javascript. That's pathetic.

    10. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by njh · · Score: 1

      It's always possible to make a good idea fail. Or put another way, there are many more ways to do something wrong than right. Or put a third way, The existence of a single working model trumps a plethora of failed attempts and shows that the idea itself has merit.

      History is scattered with the remains of people who didn't understand this: automation, flight, space, moon, personal computers, web search.

    11. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by argent · · Score: 1
      I wrote in response to a previous article:

      The ISPs made their own bed but we all have to sleep in it now.

      The ISPs fought tooth and nail against even modest municipal wifi limited to public areas like libraries and shopping districts, because they wanted to make money from it. So rather than municipally funded projects they promoted these ad-hoc "partnerships" that didn't, in the end, make money.
      both the situation described in this article and Earthlink's experience are more examples of the same problem: ISPs set up a lot of community and municipal networks for failure by feeding them a poison pill. I'm not saying that the ISPs deliberately created a situation that was doomed to fail... I'm sure they wanted to make money... but the effect was the same.
    12. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I really don't see the value in a city wide wifi network.
      When I look at my city I see Huge areas where it would be next to usless. Now city wide fiber I can see but wifi? Seems like a solution waiting for a problem.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    13. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I'll grant you that putting city-wide Wi-Fi in residential areas is significantly less useful than having fiber from a consumer perspective; most people want a real ISP for their homes, and putting in an outdoor Wi-Fi antenna just to get poor bandwidth doesn't make a lot of sense. That said, there is value to having wireless everywhere. Take Metricom, for example. They deployed a city-wide network in various places, and the biggest users were the police departments. It provided an easy way for officers to bring up information from drivers' licenses, etc. (Cellular services for networking were almost nonexistent at the time, and even now, are entirely too slow.)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      When I look at my city I see Huge areas where it would be next to usless. Now city wide fiber I can see but wifi? Seems like a solution waiting for a problem.

      Actually having public WiFi helped tremendously here in Minneapolis last year, when the I35W bridge collapsed. WiFi boosted the radio communications.

      Falcon
    15. Re:Community WiFi markets bad everywhere. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      But now Cell service for data is good enough in most places.
      WiFi in some places like fair grounds, maybe some parks, community centers, and business districts are all good areas for hot spots.
      But I see no need for it at the dump, vacant lots, and golf courses.
      The ideal solution as far as I can tell is fiber everywhere and wifi in some specific locations. If WiMax dosesn't suck then maybe that will change things.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  10. You didn't disable the auto-update? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I learn that my failure is due to the fact that Meraki has automatically updated the software on all of the units (including legacy, such as ours) Didn't you say you wrote your own firmware? Why didn't you disable the auto-update? Did your original agreement allow them to change the software without your confirmation, or worse, did it force you to give them access to your hardware for this purpose? Why don't you use a bunch of WRT54gs with OpenWRT or the Freifunk firmware?
    1. Re:You didn't disable the auto-update? by Anonymous+Conrad · · Score: 1

      Didn't you say you wrote your own firmware? The article doesn't quite say that - it says they were developing one but not that they'd already rolled it out.
    2. Re:You didn't disable the auto-update? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably because, at the time, the Meraki hardware was cheaper than WRT54gs and already came with the relevant software installed.

    3. Re:You didn't disable the auto-update? by Quarters · · Score: 1

      Given that that the article, in the sentences directly preceding the one you quoted, mention the author was attempting to push the custom firmware onto the boxes it's not hard to infer that he was attempting to do this to boxes that hadn't received their firmware yet.

  11. Let everyone know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Their wiki article has no Controversy section. It needs one. I strongly suggest that someone who was abused by them edit the wiki article setting out the case. Given their hippie like idealistic looking web site, I would have to accuse them of hypocrisy at least.

    1. Re:Let everyone know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this modded interesting? "Controversy" is in almost all cases a very bad section title, because it doesn't give the reader a clue what the section is about. The only thing that such a title says is that someone disagrees with someone or something. Usually it's better to work the content into the general article or to rename the section to something descriptive. Also, sections titled "Controversy" tend to become POV cesspits.

    2. Re:Let everyone know by captaindomon · · Score: 1

      Done.

      --
      Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
  12. Re:I don't think they are viable by masonc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I talked to Meraki about using their mesh network fro a resort I wanted to equip, but when I asked what would happen to our investment if they went belly up, they told me it the network hardware would be unusable if that happened. I said thanks but that's not acceptable.
    Who would walk a client into that sort of scenario? How many bright hopeful startups have we seen disappear without a mention? It's not like they would ever be honest and tell you they are running low on cash.
    I wouldn't mind if their service was value added, billing or accounting or something, but the network could still be used in the event they vanished. If the hardware was open and I could install a Open Source version later, I might have done it.
    Maybe Meraki needs to revisit their model and look at it from a customer's viewpoint.

    --
    CM www.cometenergysystems.com Blog: http://caribbeanrenewable.blogspot.com/
  13. Openess lockin is a myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmmm, interesting. Does "everything must be open" have limits? Idealism vs realism.

  14. Sounds like lawyer time by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IANAL, but it sounds like time for them to find a nice CDN lawyer who would do some pro-bono work to see if they have grounds for legal action. It would seem to me tha a "Tortuous interference" claim might be valid; given the actions appear to interfere with the owners of the hardware's ability to provide services as a result of the update.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:Sounds like lawyer time by jd · · Score: 1

      If the hare was tripped, would that be tortoise interference?

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  15. EULA doesn't apply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How does a EULA apply to hardware? Unless they're leasing the hardware there's no license involved.

    1. Re:EULA doesn't apply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It doesn't. At least in the US, according to my understanding of the Doctrine of First Sale - you own the hardware, so you can do what you want with it. They can use technical means to try to keep you from doing that, but they're hampered by a combination of factors: (1) their solution has to work on hardware they've sold already, (2) they don't have all that much control over the platform (it's a common wireless access point chip, with non-Meraki drivers available), and (3) some of their code is GPL.

      As someone has pointed out, GPL v2 doesn't have any non-Tivo-ization clauses, but the combination of points (1) and (2) make it hard for them to lock things down. (of course, they could always do what a cell phone company does, and sign you up for a service contract rather than selling a product. I wasn't willing to put my credit card details in on their website to see which it would be...)

      I'm rather bummed about these developments personally, as some of my colleagues have done some cool mesh networking research at UMass with these devices, and it sounds like it won't be possible anymore.

  16. Why is this modded Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have trouble seeing why the parent is a Troll unless the article to which it is posted is also a Troll.

    1. Re:Why is this modded Troll? by Jens+Egon · · Score: 1

      Perhaps some mod had a little trouble parsing it, just like I did:

      "Wiki? What wiki?" I'm guessing wikipedia, but that's just guessing. GP doesn't indicate.

  17. I used to work a couple blocks from there by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 4, Informative
    Canada's poorest neighborhood is known as the Downtown Eastside. I used to work in nearby Gastown.

    I found the contrast between most of Vancouver, which is otherwise one of Canada's most prosperous cities, and the Downtown Eastside so stark as to be completely overwhelming. There was a time when I had been one of the urban unfortunates myself, as I have a mental illness that was at one time quite severe.

    I became determined to help those that I could, often buying meals for those who asked me for spare change. But it got to be more than I could bear; the stress of it put me back in the mental hospital - I was brought to St. Paul's hospital on Burrard by an ambulance, where I stayed for three weeks in their Two-South Mental Health ward.

    I discuss Vancouver, and many of those who I met there, in my weblog The Vancouver Diaries. That is, the entries before June 30th, 2007, when I moved back to the US. I kept blogging at the site, as I intend to go back someday, but for now I live in Silicon Valley.

    I have to say, that the company that remotely installed this firmware, breaking their project, why they have to be worse than The Grinch Who Stole Christmas. I don't think I have in my entire life met so many people who are so unfortunate as the residents of the Downtown Eastside. I hope they have a change of heart.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
    1. Re:I used to work a couple blocks from there by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dan Rather did a recent profile of this neighborhood on his "Dan Rather Reports" show on HDNET. I never know such places existed in Canada, but there are bad neighborhoods everywhere I guess. Still, I've seen a lot worse in the U.S. I used to live near East St. Louis, and that place was more like a shelled-out DMZ than a town.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:I used to work a couple blocks from there by Otter · · Score: 1

      I had a journal entry about Vancouver's nastiness after a business trip there a few years ago. I can't say I'm that regretful that the junkie who threw a syringe (with needle!) at me isn't going to be getting free WiFi.

    3. Re:I used to work a couple blocks from there by Craig+Davison · · Score: 1

      It's not "Canada's poorest neighbourhood" by a long shot. Maybe it's got the highest concentration of junkies and alcoholics, but just about anybody could rent an apartment there and get a good job somewhere else in the city. If you want to see real poverty in Canada, have a look at rural reservations, places with dirt roads, no jobs, no healthcare and no money for proper police protection or social services. I mean, you yourself went to Vancouver because there is work there. That's not poverty.
      I think the DES is about to change anyway. It's got some great old buildings and is in a prime location. The cycle of gentrification is underway, with artists/creative types moving there (and doing things like rolling out a wimax network), and people renovating properties.

    4. Re:I used to work a couple blocks from there by necro2607 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I work up by gastown, luckily a couple blocks northeast, so it's not too bad. But, there are still a handful of regular homeless people who come into the office building asking for change... one of them has been out there regularly for the last almost 3 years I've worked here, for example.

      My band has played a lot of shows in the downtown area, including shows just a block from good ol' Main & Hastings (where, when driving, you almost literally are dodging drugged out zombies that are stumbling across the street). So I've met a lot of whacked out people, witnessed crimes taking place across the street, and of course almost everyone I know has had their car windows smashed (or their entire car stolen). I don't feel bad anymore though, like I did when I was a kid. I more feel pissed off about it. It's hard to feel bad when I feel like "they are fucking up my city".

      But, here's what it boils down to. Vancouver is the only big city in BC, or even western Canada. The only place where there's a huge supply of drugs, and there's somewhat of a public transit system, so people can get around. The next big city is an 11+ hour drive away. For homeless people here, there is nowhere else to go. They can't cross the border down to the US (legally) because they don't have ID, or even worse probably have criminal records and aren't interested in the trouble that's going to bring up. There's also an ever-increasing influx of organized crime (enough that the VPD have formed a new anti-gang task force as of a year ago), all of which is almost entirely linked with a pretty lucrative drug trade.

      Eh, idunno, pretty depressing. I've watched my neighbourhood turn from a nice quiet spacious foresty area into an overcrowded place loaded with duplexes and townhouses and violent attacks by gang members, in a matter of 10 years. A group of six guys got murdered in my town last year, most of whom went to the same high school as me. What the hell.

  18. I was considering Meraki... by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    until I read this article. My building is going condo and I am considering bringing up the concept of a building wide wireless network at our first board meeting. I am even toying with the idea of sharing with the neighboring buildings. The only commercial product I have been able to find is Meraki. Does anybody have any other suggestions?
    Please forgive my English, it's Monday.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:I was considering Meraki... by SirWhoopass · · Score: 1

      I can't help on the wireless end, but you may want to consider a wired system if you can't do it. It would probably still be beneficial. I was on the board of an 18-story cooperative apartment building while in college. We ran ethernet to every bedroom and living room. Large initial capital expense, but we amortized it over several years so it came out to about a $20 person/month rent increase. This was when people were paying more than that for AOL dial-up.

      So, I guess I'm not doing much more than offering a word of encouragement. Good luck with your project.

    2. Re:I was considering Meraki... by dch24 · · Score: 1

      You can always try out www.locustworld.com, though I've never used their hardware.

      Your best bet may be a Linksys WRT54GL.

    3. Re:I was considering Meraki... by qw0ntum · · Score: 5, Informative

      Check Open Mesh. Just like Meraki, but open.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    4. Re:I was considering Meraki... by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Open Mesh appears to be just what I am looking for. The only thing that concerns me is the Open Mesh hardware appears to be Meraki hardware with OSS. Are they buying Meraki routers, hacking them, and reselling them? Will Open Mesh suffer the same fate as the author of this article, or do they have a separate supply chain?

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    5. Re:I was considering Meraki... by qw0ntum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nope! Their nodes are from Accton, independently produced. And unbranded, too. They actually run on the same Atheros chipset that the Meraki nodes and the Fonera nodes use, so performance is very similar. Also, ROBIN will run on several other hardware platforms. Take a look at the ROBIN forums to see what other platforms people have gotten it to run on.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    6. Re:I was considering Meraki... by jd · · Score: 1

      You might not have to. If you set up a series of wireless access points with corner antenna or directional antenna, you can pretty much cover the whole building with a fraction of the hardware you'd need for a true ad-hoc wireless cloud. Locked-down WAPs also offer a (marginally) better opportunity for security. Oh, and if the floor you are on has a Faraday cage, there's no leakage to the outside world, meaning that you could always tweak the power levels up just a touch. Total cost of all that? About the same as if you did build a wireless cloud.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  19. I don't really get it. by Vexorian · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    So, what's the problem exactly? I think they are complaining that sponsored ads appear even when you used site: and the ad points to another site. If I remember correctly this is not new. IT is not aggressive either since google makes it very clear about what is an sponsored result and what isn't

    It is just an easier interface to site:, I guess, perhaps they thought it was a new, aggressive feature because they previously didn't know about site:'s behavior with sponsored sites and this new feature made them notice about that?

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    1. Re:I don't really get it. by jtev · · Score: 1

      No, you don't get it. They purchased a piece of equpipment, and the manufacturer has made the equipment no longer function the way it originaly did. They did this without permission, and in a way that makes it impossible for them to exersize their rights under the original licence of the firmware on the hardware. This has nothing to do with a website, it has to do with the routers.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
    2. Re:I don't really get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent post is referring to another Slashdot story, not the Meraki one.

    3. Re:I don't really get it. by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      You're replying to the wrong news article. You'll need to go back one or two to find the one about Google ads within ads :)

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    4. Re:I don't really get it. by macslas'hole · · Score: 1

      Sorry dude, looks like you posted to the wrong discussion.

      --
      Life's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
    5. Re:I don't really get it. by jtev · · Score: 1

      Then he should have been more carefull about the article he posted to. I can't be expected to magically know every story on everyone's slashdot that they could be responding to. Especially with a silly title like that comment has.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
    6. Re:I don't really get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the OP should have been more careful, but you should have realised that the comment made no sense in relation to this article.

    7. Re:I don't really get it. by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      Yeah, too many open tabs... Sorry.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  20. Open-Mesh: The Open Source Meraki Alternative by qw0ntum · · Score: 5, Informative

    This decline was something people have foreseen for a while. There is a rapidly maturing collection of open source projects to create a real open source Meraki replacement (disclaimer: I am helping develop one of these).

    ROBIN is an open source mesh firmware that can run on reflashed Meraki nodes (well, I don't think it's "allowed" by Meraki anymore, since they've changed their license agreement to forbid 3rd party firmware and have made it really difficult to access the bootloader).

    Open-Mesh is the dashboard management service that ROBIN nodes are configured to use. The guy who develops this actually started working on this dashboard when Meraki was still Roofnet - compare the Open-Mesh dashboard to the Meraki dashboard, the similarity is obvious. Also, you can buy pre-flashed, fully featured ROBIN nodes from Open-Mesh.com for $50 each, the same price that Meraki sells their crippled "standard version" of their nodes.

    OrangeMesh, is an open-source version of the dashboard being developed that will allow you to host your own dashboard server, completely freeing you from reliance on any third party. You can check out it's progress here.

    --
    'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
  21. poorest "postal code"? by yanyan · · Score: 1

    What's so hard about typing "poorest neighborhood" instead? That phrase seriously threw me when i read it.

    1. Re:poorest "postal code"? by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      What's so hard about typing "poorest neighborhood" instead? That phrase seriously threw me when i read it.

      Because that might not be true?

      Postal code zones are well defined, and for many places map well onto census data. So you can easily find out what the poorest postal code is. Neighborhood names and boundaries, on the other hand, are notoriously variable. If they said "poorest neighborhood" when they couldn't prove it and when there were other good candidates, some pedant much like your own good self would have griped about it.

    2. Re:poorest "postal code"? by dextromulous · · Score: 1

      Considering the context of the article (roofnet,) I find it hard to believe that only one postal code is applicable to the entire area referred to in the article as "Canada's poorest neighbourhood." My neighbourhood in Calgary has at least a dozen postal codes. Even the block I live on has at least 8 postal codes (one for every major building, 7 apartment buildings and one mall.) The article summary looks like a poor translation made by someone who does not live in a Canadian urban area.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
    3. Re:poorest "postal code"? by Destoo · · Score: 1

      A postal code in Canada is limited to one side of a street, sometimes even covering only section of it.
      Technically, that's more than 17.5 million codes. Z9Z 9Z9
      With a postal code, you can sometimes be as precise as 5-6 houses.
      It's nothing like your Zip Codes. (5 digits, 100,000 possibilities)

      There's no such thing as "poorest postal code".

      --
      Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
    4. Re:poorest "postal code"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With a postal code, you can sometimes be as precise as 5-6 houses.
      It's nothing like your Zip Codes. (5 digits, 100,000 possibilities) So it's like our "Zip+4". Example: 90210-9748 (9 digits)
    5. Re:poorest "postal code"? by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      A postal code in Canada is limited to one side of a street, sometimes even covering only section of it.
       
      Excuse me? In my town of about 5000 people, the whole town has the same postal code. Everyone picks his mail up at the post office, there are no mail carriers that bring it to your house.
       
      I have always assumed that most postal codes are for individual mail carrier routes. Postman Smith delivers route T2P 4A1 and Postman Jones delivers T2P 4A2.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    6. Re:poorest "postal code"? by Destoo · · Score: 1

      Right. Rural areas have one postal code becase there's one post office, no residential mailboxes.
      In towns, you can see what I described: one postal code per side of the street, and sometimes 4-5 residences per code.

      Downtown in Montreal or Toronto, it's one postal code per company per building, or sometimes even per floor.
      And I'm pretty sure some building floors receive more mail in a day than your whole town in a month.

      But you're right, I should have been more general.

      But postal code are definitely precise enough to, most of the time, get accurate directions on maps.google or any other mapping program.

      --
      Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
  22. Re:I don't think they are viable by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Couldn't just get a bunch of Linksys WRT 54GLs, load OpenWRT, and setup that way?

  23. Re:What a bunch of bunk by Beale · · Score: 1

    If you want to use a loss leader, you really have to make sure you have a good follow-through that almost everyone who buys your loss-leader will want.

  24. Re:What a bunch of bunk by farbles · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Actually it's not pie in the sky. Go back to your dog-eared copy of Atlas Shrugged.


    Who's child is going to do better in school, the one with home internet or the one who had to wait for terminal time at a public site away from home?


    Bringing connectivity to an area increases economic activity in that area. By giving people a tool to communicate like internet access, they can start up everything from community-based discussion forums to small businesses online. They will think up uses for the connectivity no one else thought of first.


    There is a big and growing Digital Divide in this country coming from unequal access to high speed networking. The price point for high speed is too high for low income people, low income people tend to live in under-serviced areas, and the whole "Screw-you-I-got-mine" attitude should have died with Reagan but it is still with us today like a carcinoma.


    I've worked on a neighborhood wireless project to bring low price high speed connectivity to the poor and it is not easy to do. Hardware issues, stability issues, open source wifi drivers suck ass, NDISwrapper with wifi drivers is less stable than mercury fulminate at high heat but with all that, there are dedicated people working to try and improve the lot of others, something your precious Ayn Rand and her uber-klassen seem to blank on. Isn't there a McCain convention for you to be at?
     

  25. Re:What a bunch of bunk by profplump · · Score: 1

    Are you seriously suggesting that improved communications technology *wouldn't* improve the local economy? Did you miss the last 100 years of human existence?

    If these people were starving in the street you're right, soup kitchens would be more useful. But that's not the case here -- the intent is to improve the local economy to be on-par with the rest of the nation. The people this project is intended to help aren't homeless, and many aren't even unemployed, they're just poor.

    Having things like, the ability to use their Internet connection to be a work-at-home call-center rep, cheaper residential telephone service, the ability to easily search for jobs outside their immediate geographic area, or even just general access to the web and email, could all make practical improvements in the lives people who did not previously have access to cheap, moderate-speed Internet services.

  26. Re:What a bunch of bunk by Pogie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll grant you that the goal of the do-gooders was a little ephemeral compared to giving the poor food, but if your goal is sustainable improvement of the lives of the economically downtrodden, you need to do more than simply give them something to eat. Also, it's pretty damn insulting to a poor person to imply that their biggest problem is putting food on the table. Maybe their biggest problem, now that they've solved the food and housing issue, is helping their kids to a better life. You know what might help with that? Access to a computer and the internet at home.

    One of the most difficult barriers to entry for folks from low-income backgrounds trying to gain some upward mobility is the lack of access to technological services/devices that those of us raised in a middle-class environment consider basic tools of life. How can you move from slinging burgers or picking strawberries (definitive low class jobs) to secretarial or temp office work (entry level middle class jobs) if you don't have a computer, or access to the internet, or excel, or MS word, etc? These guys were setting out to help bridge the "digital divide" -- explicitly trying to provide access to the online resources the middle and upper classes have to people who don't normally have access to them.

    The poor have a variety of needs, don't patronize them by assuming the only need you see is the only need they have.

  27. Just talk to them.. Right. That'll work. NOT! by Chas · · Score: 1

    Meraki holds all the cards. They control the firmware, and they've acted in a fairly predatory manner here.

    They'll ask "why should we let you?" And they'll be (from their POV) right. Why SHOULD they let them. They're not making money off it. They don't give a shit.

    If you want to use their hardware at all, you have to give (and keep giving) them money. Either directly in payments, or indirectly by serving adds on their free tier.

    Fuck that noise.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  28. This might be the worst... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    summary I have seen on /. to date!"

    "Trying to bridge the digital divide in Canada's poorest postal code, a principled group of hackers adopt "open source"-based technology spun off from an MIT project. Then the terms on the hardware are changed, and changed again, and then firmware to lock out the frustrated group's software is installed, screwing them out of their investment and many hours of development work."

    I guess our beloved Cmd Taco has bever heard of the basic Who, What, Where, When of writing an article.

    --
    Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    1. Re:This might be the worst... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't figure out what the bleepity-bleep the summary was talking about. It's like an out-of-context snippet of someone else's stream-of-conscious.

      "Hackers were trying to do something (we won't tell you what) for a group of poor people in Canada (we won't tell you who or where in the country) and the hardware vendor (we won't tell you what kind of hardware) screwed them over somehow (we won't say how, other than it had something to do with open source or the lack thereof) with a firmware update."

      No context whatsoever. How about:

      "A group of principled hackers was trying to set up a community wireless network in one of Vancouver's poorest neighborhoods when the hardware vendor from whom they purchased the wireless access points pushed through an unauthorized firmware update that locked the devices and prevented any open-source solutions from working. Vendor lock-in had not been part of the licensing terms when the units were purchased, but the company wanted to change the licensing arrangement post-sale.

      It's really not that hard to get the key information in there. (Sorry, I forgot to take my telepathy and mind-reading pills this morning-- otherwise, I'm sure I'd have been able to figure out what the article was about from the summary)

  29. Here's a company that has done it right by CompMD · · Score: 1

    Community Wireless Communications is working on its second city-wide wifi project, the first being a major success in Lawrence, Kansas.

  30. Re:What a bunch of bunk by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This was step 1.

    Step 2 is getting people to donate old wireless devices and/or buy eepcs or XOs.

    Step 3 is always profit, but this time, it's profit for the folks in the neighborhood.

    I understand your confusion since step 2 is often listed as "???"

  31. Re:What a bunch of bunk by mini+me · · Score: 1

    In this case, this country would be Canada. I don't recall a Prime Minister Reagan. And I'm not sure our Digital Divide is that bad. Unless you live in a shack in the far north, most people have similar access for similar prices as someone who lives in downtown Toronto. If you do live in that shack, you'll still have the access, but you'll be looking at about twice the cost. Still, not bad, really, when you consider how large the country is and how few people we have.

  32. Re:What a bunch of bunk by bob.appleyard · · Score: 1

    Last 100 years? Hell, pretty much the entirety of human history supports that statement. As an example, why did countries like Spain, England, France, the Netherlands and so on develop world empires when they did? Shipbuilding improvements and good access to the Atlantic. That is, better communications. Oh yes, guns and finance and stuff helped, but if that were the case, why didn't any big central European powers get any world empires at the time?

    Communications, trade and prosperity are all very closely linked.

    --
    How dare you be so modest!! You conceited bastard!!
  33. I call shenanigans! by radagenais · · Score: 4, Informative

    Did anyone read TFA?

    Meraki patched a not-for-profit group's hardware from remote without permission so that it would no longer run the firmware same not-for-profit developed in-house. They did this to hardware that was BSD licensed when purchased. They either employed a backdoor or abused known customer access credentials (likely the former) to do it.

    This is probably illegal and certainly wrong.

    (TFA doesn't say if a contract was in play between Meraki and the client that would have authorized them to apply the patches, but its clear that the customer had put an end to the agreement so a complaint against Meraki would be legit.)

    At the very least, this is a malicious hack against a customer. But I think its more than that.

    If the peeps in Vancouver were left to continue their work, they certainly would have had a "competitive" solution which they would likely have offered up online for all to use. This would effectively make them a competitor, and a dangerous one because unhappy Meraki customers would be the most likely to check it out. I would go so far to say that this was a pre-emptive sabotage (with poor Vancouverites in the crossfire).


    I have no problem with Meraki adapting their business model to find something that works. But their actions way overstepped the boundaries of the law. They would have been wiser to handle the whole affair in a more benevolent fashion in the first place. They could have, for example, cut a partnership deal with the non-profit to allow them to participate in feature development under NDA and enjoy a subsidized service. Both parties would have come out winners.

    Whenever financiers get involved, they always want to lock up the tech because it is the only tangible asset they can claim ownership of. Meanwhile, they miss the essence of business value, which is in the people and the partnerships and the innovation.

    I think that the only way community wifi is going to work is if it is community-run, not-for-profit, and vendor independent. There is no question that we will have this soon enough and it will be running on top of WRTs and other similar APs which are abundant and cheap and have loads of after-market conversion options for outdoor use. I'm disappointed to read all these comments bashing the Vancouver hackers, who deserve kudos for their inventiveness, determination, and good will.

    1. Re:I call shenanigans! by radagenais · · Score: 1

      Okay I dug down a bit more in the comments since I posted and, to be fair, I'm not the only one who has read TFA, and some of my comment was redundant. But I am still convinced that free and open is better for community wifi.

    2. Re:I call shenanigans! by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ``I think that the only way community wifi is going to work is if it is community-run, not-for-profit, and vendor independent.''

      There, I emphasized that, because I think it's the most important part. Whoever runs the operation, there is always a chance that they will turn against you. Not being dependent on them lowers the chance that they will and leaves you free to find an alternative if they still do. Vendor-independence is a Good Thing everywhere, not just for community wifi.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  34. Screw U? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey that's my alma mater!

  35. Eight Thousand Used Syringes Littered The Ground by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 1
    That was what they found when a pilot project picked up all the trash in the Downtown Eastside. The article I read about it, I think it was in The Vancouver Sun, said the trash collectors had to be escorted by the police.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
  36. Re:What a bunch of bunk by mikael · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Anyone who went to school back 20 years ago would remember that the kids who had a complete home encyclopedia, dictionary, thesaurus, biographies on famous historical people, or had parents who were members of book clubs, found it much easier to write essays or coursework assignments and get good grades than any kid who did not. If you were in luck, you might have a friend or neighbour who had relevant literature. You could try going with an adult to the library (which was probably on the other side of town and only opened late one evening), but you were still taking the chance that someone else had already been there and already taken out the related books. Another chance was a second hand bookstore or the magazine racks of the local shop. Otherwise, you had exhausted all your options. Even the local bookstore would take two weeks to have an order come through.

    Even if it weren't a school project or coursework, if you were a kid curious about some piece of technology, you would be lucky if one of the documentary series had an article on that item, or if you found a science magazine in the local shop.

    These days, anyone can do a Google search, look for online published research papers, visit online magazine articles, look at online secondhand bookstores or Amazon. All before even having to leave home. That is, if you do have a home computer, internet connection and are familiar with the various applications (desktop, login process, web browser, search engines, touch typing).

    That is, if your family can afford a computer and internet access. Many employers complain that their applicants don't have basic computer literacy skills: knowing how connect a system together, keyboard skills, word processing, spreadsheets, E-mail, database packages (Maybe because anyone who does have those skills can find a better job, but it's sad that people don't already have those skills in the first place).

    Just by having a computer with internet access is going to allow you to learn many more basic skills in your own time, as well as keep in touch with the rest of the community (forums, job search pages, community college courses).

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  37. OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Corollary to Tiller's Rule:

    Never use a word that you've heard in speech but have never seen in print, because you'll look like a fool when you spell it wrong.

    Examples I've seen in real life: "Here, Here!", "gold dablooms", "prejudice" (meaning 'prejudiced', I see this a lot), "per say", "mideval" (meaning 'medieval'), "pnumonic" (meaning 'mnemonic')

    OK, I've gotten it out of my blood for now... carry on.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    1. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      And 'tow the line', 'queue xxxx'...

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I've seen most of those atrocious examples of stupidity as well. Describing modern car construction techniques as 'monocot' made me laugh. 'Per say' really gets under my skin for some reason. I need to start a wiki where people can add abuses they've seen. Humm.....

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    3. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by bradinthehouse · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but what if you're rilly rilly good at spelling? I guess the dictionary couldn't hurt.

    4. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
      Only a fool is more interested in a person's spelling than in their communication. If you understand, you understand. All of us knew more words than we could spell at some point of our lives.

      It's always interesting to see people criticize other's for hurdles that they've already surpassed in life. If you're already past the hurdle, why not help the person over?

    5. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      I like the valley girl spelling: "Rully, rully kewl. Gag me with a backhoe!"

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    6. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're already past the hurdle, why not help the person over?

      Well, my post is an implicit suggestion to read more, which is the best help there is. The only real way to help your spelling is to read books. I read one or two books a month on a slow month, sometimes a couple a week, including literature, science, math, politics, and plenty of fun stuff too, despite the fact that I spend time at places like /.. It's the best, and possibly the only effective, way to increase your vocabulary and improve your spelling. If you are well-read there are many, many other benefits, such as actually knowing what you are talking about. These benefits aren't just good things to have, they are necessary to be an educated person, which most people on places like /. purport to be. Despite the wealth of information around us, I get the impression people, as a whole, are becoming more ignorant, not less, and the spelling skills of the average person seem to show it.

      While some people just don't have brains that adapt well to good spelling*, almost everyone will benefit from actually reading well-written material, especially material that was written fifty or more years ago. Language is very precise and if you misuse it, you are prone to being misunderstood. Effective communication requires proper use of the tools, namely language.

      * One of the most well-read persons, and possibly the smartest person, I've ever met spells like a remedial fourth-grader, but people like him are uncommon, and he specifically blames his lack of ability to not being taught phonics as a kid.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    7. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Neko-kun · · Score: 1

      It's "Gag me with a spoon"... err.. you insensitive clod...

    8. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      It was like, totally "Gag me with a backhoe", cause, like spoons were so last week! OMG! Seriously, there seems to have been at least some collective consciousness re: the backhoe - google it; it isn't just me. It was either in a song or a joke that floated around back in the 'dark times'.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    9. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by InterStellaArtois · · Score: 1

      I have the opposite problem to this "Tiller's Law": I read way more than I converse, so quite often pronounce words incorrectly! I was going to give examples but it's just too embarrassing. If I'm talking to someone I always know I've done this because their face freezes and then smile ever so slightly.

      As a side-note to this off-topic post, interesting that you mention books written 50+ years ago as the most worthwhile. In my experience this is largely true and my mind floods with cynical reasons why this may be so.

    10. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tabrnaker · · Score: 1

      That's interesting. I was extremely good at spelling from reading books a lot. However, i did not know how to pronounce anything. My brothers laughed for years because i pronounced ogre as og-Ree. Granted, i was 6 years old reading Piers Anthony novels. After speech therapy (i was autistic) and learning phonics (which took me decades), my spelling went out the door. :) Thank god for spell check!

    11. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Neko-kun · · Score: 1

      Ah, referencing this...

    12. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have the opposite problem to this "Tiller's Law": I read way more than I converse, so quite often pronounce words incorrectly! Happens to me an awful lot, especially with English as a second language. And of course because spelling only ever has a very remote connection to pronunciation (not to mention the fact that people in the US have their own pronunciation *and* spelling, and sometimes even words). Although that's a problem in many languages unfortunately.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    13. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by mrslacker · · Score: 1

      "gold dablooms"

      I wasn't listening 100% carefully, but I think something very close to this pronunciation was used in "Treasure Planet" to give it a "spacey" feel. Yes, blame Disney.

    14. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I have the opposite problem to this "Tiller's Law": I read way more than I converse, so quite often pronounce words incorrectly! I was going to give examples but it's just too embarrassing. If I'm talking to someone I always know I've done this because their face freezes and then smile ever so slightly.
      I often have that problem myself - though as often as not, it turns out that conversational partners don't know the words /at all/...
    15. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by lgw · · Score: 1

      No need to start your own - not an open wiki, but most abuses are already here.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by radish · · Score: 1

      And "wahla", "waa la", "valar" etc (for "voila"). I've even seen it spelled that way by supposedly professional journalists.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    17. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tehdaemon · · Score: 1

      And of course because spelling only ever has a very remote connection to pronunciation

      Actually, almost every english word is spelled the way is was pronounced. Try on words like knight and through and food. (think two vowels go walking on that last one...)

      Language changes, standardized spelling can't keep up.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    18. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      YES! That was a great example I couldn't think of. The person who said "valar" must have been from Bahstahn... or maybe is a Tolkien fan.

      And for those of you that are unfamiliar with the term, "voila" is French for "Ta da!" (at least according to "The Simpsons"). ;-)

      Not to be confused with "voici" which is French for "Check me out!"

      As they say in Latin, "E Pluribus Uranium"

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    19. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Somehow, Spanish has managed to solve the problem. It's a completely phonetic language with no exceptions. I'd really like to know how that came about.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    20. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. It could be worse. They could have said, "Peace is of hate."

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    21. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      I used to have that problem too. I think every young reader does.

      (Is it just me or do a lot of people waste an awful lot of time waiting for the stupid two-minute timer that /. insists on running between allowing comments? Sorry /., I'm not some kind of retard, it's possible for me to read a comment and compose a thoughtful response in less than 120 seconds. 60 seconds would make so much more sense.)

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    22. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      As a side-note to this off-topic post, interesting that you mention books written 50+ years ago as the most worthwhile. In my experience this is largely true and my mind floods with cynical reasons why this may be so. Obvious one: there's been 50 years to weed out the bad ones.

      Books of a like quality written today must complete with the slew of blogs, mindless novels, and other "pulp media" that, well, doesn't last 50 years.

      Well, that and elitism is a self-fulfilling perspective.
    23. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
      I'm guessing the timer weeds out a lot of one liner off-topic comments like ours. :)

      Yeah, i detest it as well. Sometimes being slow is a blessing.

    24. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tehdaemon · · Score: 1

      Some time with google gave some hints. I bet a linguist could enlighten you better, But the long and short of it seems to be that Spanish spelling keeps changing to match the pronunciation, where the middle english (pre 1600AD!!!) spellings have been kept.

      Do note that ~1600AD is when England rose to prominence while Spain declined. I bet this is the root cause of the difference.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    25. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Buran · · Score: 1

      "Queue" is a correct and acceptable variation of "cue". It is not usually found in US English, however, so maybe this is why you think it's wrong.

      You may also see it meaning "to line up for" as in "queue up for", again usually in British English (and in places like Australia that were/are part of the British Empire).

    26. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Only a fool is more interested in a person's spelling than in their communication. If you understand, you understand. All of us knew more words than we could spell at some point of our lives.

      The practical reason being that-- especially in extreme cases-- misspelling and misuse of words can interrupt the flow of reading, as the reader "hangs" for a moment, having to evaluate the misspelling and re-integrate the proper meaning into the thought. Also, it can call undue attention to the minor point of the misuse, voluntarily or involuntarily overshadowing the actual content. Perhaps it's a petty reaction, but for a person who is sensitive to such problems, it can interfere nonetheless.

      Personally, and more ideologically, I see it like this (Actually, this is more my rant against txt-speakers who can't manage to spell words like "you", but it applies here...): We're on the Internet. The potential is heaped high for a person to display the finest points of their character. It is a place beyond all the useless standards of race, physical appearance, visible wealth or poverty... you can even smell as bad as I do right now and be regarded with equal standing. The only thing keeping a person's ideas from being evaluated on the equitable grounds is their expression of those ideas. (Granted, people writing in a second language have a setback, but I'll overlook that.) In a forum like this, people even have the time to compose and check their writing before they submit. A criticism or ribbing for a reasonable and common grammar problem should be taken in stride, and learned from. On the Internet, there's nothing between you and not being an idiot... except a little diligence, perhaps. The tolerance train has to stop somewhere, and the expression of someone's ideas, when that person has such a favorable platform, is a perfectly understandable place.

      It's always interesting to see people criticize other's for hurdles that they've already surpassed in life. If you're already past the hurdle, why not help the person over?

      That's what criticism is. It's the "tough love" kind of help (or at least as "tough" as getting harangued on the Internet can be).

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    27. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Violin!

      Huh?

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    28. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by cas2000 · · Score: 1

      > "Queue" is a correct and acceptable variation of "cue".
      > It is not usually found in US English, however, so maybe this is why you think it's wrong.


      no, it's not. 'cue' and 'queue' are two completely different words.

      > You may also see it meaning "to line up for" as in "queue up for", again usually
      > in British English (and in places like Australia that were/are part of the British Empire).


      yes, that's the meaning of 'queue'. it's used in US English too, possibly after transformation into weird american spelling. IIRC, i've seen some americans spell it as 'que' - not sure if that's standard USian or if it's a mis-spelling even in the US. in geek circles, the British spelling seems to be common.

      'cue', on the other hand, refers to a prompt or reminder (as in an actor's cue), or sometimes a clue, or even a 'cue stick' (as in pool or billiards).

    29. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Despite the wealth of information around us, I get the impression people, as a whole, are becoming more ignorant, not less, and the spelling skills of the average person seem to show it.

      I think the big problem-- perhaps more generally speaking to "information" as opposed to "education"-- is that there's so much readily available "junk" information. Even avoiding elitist "high culture/low culture" separation and speaking practically, there's a heaping feed of information readily available to us every day, jumping, flashing, and disguised as IMPORTANT! to our evolutionarily-lagged brain parts, a large part of which has no long-term or formative value at all.

      There could also be something to be said for the effects of an advanced society that can provide the necessities of life to even its least motivated members, allowing practiced ignorance to prosper as well or better than practiced intelligence. Although it doesn't lead directly to an ignorance-loving culture, such provision certainly allows cultures that celebrate the shiftless and ignorant over the studious and intelligent to grow. It's like the middle/high school problem-- with no real challenges, the metrics a person is judged by can become warped to weight toward useless or harmful traits.

      (Okay, reality check: I'm not sure if this last perception is just a trend gathered from a rose-tinted view of a yesteryear that was just as dumb as today... I'm talking out my ass, sans actual statistics, so take with salt as necessary.)

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    30. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
      I was using criticism in the current colloquial sense, i.e., pejoratively.

      It's funny, as the colloquial definition of criticism has moved away from 'critique' the less critiquing actually seems to be going on. I attribute it to the masses using words that their mental abilities cannot quite grasp. I wonder if anybody has studied the disintegration of words with specific, but broad meanings, i.e., interpretable as both positive or negative, into the colloquial usage, which tends to be only negative?

      I wonder though, how do you tell if someone is writing in a second language? While English is my second language, i'm pretty sure that my syntax, grammar, and punctuation mistakes can't be blamed on that :)

      Oh, and believe me, we all know you stink, and therefore give your arguments no credence. ;P

    31. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
      I believe you're on the correct track. Our society creates 'black boxes' around everything we deal with. People use iPods and have no clue what exactly is going on inside of the white box. People regularly toss words around like 'penguin' even though they have never seen a penguin in real life, or even know anything about it.

      Our schooling system doesn't help, we cram words and ideas that are disconnected from reality into the young minds of tomorrow and then wonder why they don't understand.

      It's the whole calculator debacle on a societal level.

      Perhaps it's just different strokes for different folks. I could say that i was rather proud of the fact that i never used a calculator all the way through to university. I was able to solve complex equations in my head. On the other side of the coin, i never actually could figure out how to use a calculator. Took me two decades to figure out analog clocks as well :)

      I'm sure we're coming to a convergence point where the brains of society and the brawn of society will meld into one. Until then, the brains are always going to be the smaller population.

    32. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by turbidostato · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Somehow, Spanish has managed to solve the problem."

      I claim bullshit on this. That was Juan Ramón Jimenez's dream (1956 literature Nobel Prize), but we are not quite there.

      While it's true you know for certain how to pronounce a word as soon as you see it written down, the reverse it's not: you can't always know how to write a word you heared (as it was the point from the previous poster): 'baca' and 'vaca' sound exactly the same as would do 'hueso' and 'ueso' (if the latter existed, which is not). You would write (relevant word remarked) "*tu* madre" but "*tú* eres", again same sound, different graphs.

      Even then, there is an exception on the "phonetic rule": letter "x" changed its sound somewhere in between XVI and XVII centuries (I don't know when), so you have some "oldish" proper nouns written down with "x" (like México, Texas or Xavier) that are to be pronounced as "Méjico", "Tejas" or "Javier" instead (well, I don't know but these three exceptions).

      "I'd really like to know how that came about."

      Not too difficult: Spanish is a latin-based language, and the cute symbols you use to write down ideas are not called "latin alphabet" for nothing.

      The phonetic problems come from the fact that there are "too many letters". Letter "b" and "v" became the same sound about the XVII century; letter "h" lost its sound (it's mute) about a century before. There are letters that have different sounds depending on context ("c" on "casa" sounds like "k"ilo, while on "cerilla" it sounds like in "c"entennial). To make things worse, two letters may overlap sounds ("z" always sounds like "c" on "cerilla", while "c" may sound different. Again, "j" has always a hard sound, non-existant in English -more or less like "aghhh" -listen to a mexican saying his country's name; remember that "x" became "j" afterwards), while "g" may sound like previous "j" i.e.: "gemido" or softer like in "guapo", more or less like "gas"). Then you have so-called diacritic rules about accents ('tu' is possesive while "tú" is a pronoun, but they both just sound the same).

      And then, some syntactic sugar regarding irregular verbs (while past participle from "comer" -"to eat" is regular and comes as "comido", "poner" -"to put" is irregular and its participle forms as "puesto" instead of "ponido").

      Of course every English-spoken people would find verbal forms quite cumbersome (six diferent persons -three singular and three plural, five modes and about four tenses per each mode, with simple and complex ways all of them... oh! and three regular conjugations depending on the verb ending on -ar, -er or -ir, and a plethora of irregular and defective verbs); not as bad as German, but quite there.

      Yes, I'm Spanish.

    33. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Voilà -> "vois là" -> "look there" -> "there it is" -> "check it out!". "Voici" -> "vois ici" -> "look here" -> "here it is" -> "here you go!".

      Voici is when you are handing something over to somone. "Voici une orange" -> Here's an orange.

      You'll also hear "tiens" -> "take". "Tiens cette orange" -> "Take this orange"/"Here, have this orange" figuratively. Unlike the présentatifs voici and voilà, "tiens" / "tenez" requires a choice of which second person pronoun to use.

      Voilà is when you want to point out something cool to someone, without actually handing it over. "Voilà la peinture" -> Check out the painting!

      Waiters will voilà rather than voici out of politeness, since they do not possess the item they are presenting to you, when they present it. Timing is everything. Diners may voici when handing over payment. (Voici le mien, voilà le vôtre - here's mine, here's yours).

      "Ta da!" is the same in French and English. "Todah" is thank you in Hebrew. C'est l'hébrou! -> "It's Greek to me!"

    34. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      (Is it just me or do a lot of people waste an awful lot of time waiting for the stupid two-minute timer that /. insists on running between allowing comments? Sorry /., I'm not some kind of retard, it's possible for me to read a comment and compose a thoughtful response in less than 120 seconds. 60 seconds would make so much more sense.)

      Actually I think the delay has more to do with saving resources, bandwidth and storage. Those who don't have a paid subscription have the delay between posts but I don't think those who have paid do.

      Falcon
    35. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Agreed, the meaning of the message is more important than the manner in which it was delivered.

    36. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by dangitman · · Score: 1

      "Queue" is a correct and acceptable variation of "cue".

      WTF? Which dictionary are you getting that from?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    37. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by JohnVanVliet · · Score: 1

      "* One of the most well-read persons, and possibly the smartest person, I've ever met spells like a remedial fourth-grader, but people like him are uncommon, and he specifically blames his lack of ability to not being taught phonics as a kid. " ---- that describes me to a "tea"

      --
      "I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
    38. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by JimFive · · Score: 1

      Because I'm in a nitpicking mood:
      voila is French for "There it is" or literally "See There"

      voici is French for "Here it is" or literally "See Here"

      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    39. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by xtracto · · Score: 1

      : 'baca' and 'vaca' sound exactly the same as would

      Well, maybe they sound the same to you, but the first thing they teach us in schools in Mexico is that B is called "B-labial" (lip-based B) while V is the "V-laviodental" (lip+teeth based V). As such, the difference between the B and the V is that when pronouoncing the later you put your lower lip slightly between your teeth (as with doing the sound of an F).

      Now, in the case of Spanish from Spain (as oposed to Spanish from Mexico and other Latin countries) you do have a specific difference in the S, C and Z sound. For us, that difference is what makes your accent sound funny. However, in Spanish from Mexico, is difficult to know if a word has S or C, like "Hacer", you in Spain pronounce something like "Hafer", which is the root of the word, but in Mexico, the pronunciation would be similar to "haser".

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    40. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      What utter crap - come back when you've learned to speak English.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    41. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Thanks for all the detail. I was deliberately being silly, since I took a year of French in high school I do know the difference. I guess it's a dangerous combination, being a spelling/grammar nazi but always wanting to have fun, and then

      vee-oh-lah

      I look like an idiot too.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    42. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Harik · · Score: 1

      Because time is an excellent filter. There were tons of horrible books written 50+ years ago, but nobody remembers them. 99% of everything is garbage - you're seeing the 1% that was worthwhile.

      Looking back on the books of the 90s in 2040 you'll have the same impression that it was a golden age of literacy.

    43. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Buran · · Score: 1

      What utter crap -- come back when you've learned not to insult people you disagree with.

    44. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      It's not a disagreement - it's just plain facts. 'Cue' and 'queue' are totally different words, fucktard.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    45. Re:OT: Corollary to Tiller's Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      people criticize other's for hurdles

      "others".

  38. Sadly missing the boat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Technological problems are solved by technological solutions. Societal problems sadly are not. The age old problems of poverty and unequal income distribution can hardly be addressed by the computer gadget of the moment.
    Throwing in arguments about serving the poor into software license squabbles is plain silly and a sign of desperation.

  39. Reflashing Merakis by sbrsb · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article suggests that a Meraki software upgrade has made it impossible to reflash them.

    Actually, you can still easily make them revert to an earlier version which can be reflashed.

    As described here:
    http://robin.forumup.it/about99-15-robin.html

    "you can ssh into the Meraki and create edit the /storage/config.local file with whatever you want; in my case:
    Code:
    echo "firmware.mips.version 6-9163" > /storage/config.local"

    And they'll update themselves to an earlier version.

    The founders of Meraki have made huge contributions to open source software and it is good to see that others are taking advantage of their great work and making further improvements.

    1. Re:Reflashing Merakis by Charbox · · Score: 2, Funny

      excellent comment, but reading it was somewhat of a let-down, because the entire controversy and discussion, and all those righteous flames are moot. LOL

  40. Re:What a bunch of bunk by farbles · · Score: 1

    I'm in Canada though I used American references speaking to an American audience who would probably not get a Mulroney reference but would get a Reagan reference, as would everyone in Canada as well. The Digital Divide is a big problem in both Canada and the US and a $50 a month price point is too high for a lot of people. Also, there are a lot of places within an hour's drive of the city where I'm at who are dialup access only - no other choice.

  41. Re:What a bunch of bunk by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
    Actually, these people ARE starving in the street. Downtown eastside is a very small place. It is one area of homeless people and no businesses. It is flanked by Chinatown, where cash is king and connectivity wouldn't help the Chinese business model in the area. The other areas flanking it are stinking rich. We're talking about $300k and up for closet size condos. It's where up and coming yuppies live.

    This has nothing to do with helping out poor people. The only other businesses in the area that would benefit from connectivity would be all the pot/seed dealers.

    If you can afford a condo for half a million, you can pay your internet bill. Unfortunately, we have lots of entitlement b!tches here.

  42. Re:What a bunch of bunk by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    I remember the pre-internet days, and what was neat was that just before the internet-at-home explosion, there were some encyclopedias on computer disk. We owned a computer, and I used the e-ncyclopedia for a lot of research without having to go to the library. Before that, I had to fend for myself at the library like everyone else (and did lose out on occasion).

  43. Re:I don't think they are viable by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    Couldn't just get a bunch of Linksys WRT 54GLs, load OpenWRT, and setup that way?

    This is what I thought. Although the author of the article mentioned that they couldn't find an alternative, I would certainly be curious to see if anyone can provide a working alternative, commercial or otherwise. I am sure while 'Meraki' might be larger arse-holes than g**tse.cx, I am sure they would change their approach if there was good competition.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  44. Speechless by PCM2 · · Score: 1

    I asked what would happen to our investment if they went belly up, they told me it the network hardware would be unusable if that happened.

    A little one-sided there, methinks. After all, the money you would have given them would still work just fine. This business deserves to fail in the marketplace.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  45. Sounds like the first death throe by hey! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I disagree. If the company was indeed selling the units at a loss, then that is their own stupidity.


    It's not necessarily stupid; it depends on whether selling the unit at below costs makes it attractive for your customers to do other, more profitable business.

    Consider the proverbial "razor/razor blade" business. You sell the razors at a loss, but you make it up by selling your customers a pack of blades every few months for years. Now if those blades, tear bloody furrows in your customers' faces, then having a bad product is what makes your business plan bad, not having a bad strategy.

    Nobody in his right mind would buy network equipment where the vendor has demonstrated willingness to push a firmware update without customer permission -- period. Much less if they claim that this allows them to unilaterally change the license and lock the customer out of his own equipment. Granted, in the razor blade model, you have a kind of proprietary feeling about all those razors you lost money in, but you can't go fishing through people's medicine cabinets without people concluding you're dangerously off your rocker.

    I can understand how it happens. There are two reasons that businesses fail. They either run out of cash, or somebody with a note or something steps in and pulls the plug (which seldom happens if the cash situation is healthy and on track). I've seen plenty of companies that had a reasonably good product with a plausible strategy, but they just had a fatal cash hiccup; either outgo that was a bit faster than anticipated, or incoming that was a little of schedule.

    It's like somebody who ingests poison in a murder mystery; after a while, your recognize that tic as the first of what will eventually become agonizing death throes. The problem with a start up even trying to reposition its products that all their existing customers who bought the old story, and now are unlikely to buy from you ever again. Anybody with any sense knows its easier to sell to an existing customer than a new one, so it probably means one of two things: either they suddenly tripped over a pile of cash that's going to allow them to bootstrap a new business plan, or they've run out of cash to make the old one work. Everybody knows you don't make much money off of early adopters, but you can't use your privileged position with them to mess with their systems, but it doesn't mean you can afford to alienate them unless your original business plan is a total write-off.

    Mind you I'm just talking about drastic repositioning of the products that leave customer's future plans messed up. I'm not talking about trying to extort new business out of your customers by exploiting your access to their property. That's either extremely desperate, or extremely, sleazily stupid. I don't know anything about this company, but desperate is much more common than utterly sleazy, although sometimes they go hand in hand.
    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  46. Re:What a bunch of bunk by eldepeche · · Score: 1

    Yeah, but don't 85% of Canadians live within 50 miles of the southern border?

  47. Automatic Updates by InterStellaArtois · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is why I never feel comfortable with 'updates', unless I've vetted them first.

    FTA and the linked blog, it appears the firmware update was pushed by the manufacturer, therefore didn't have to happen. I'm not blaming the people affected here as in principle, you may want to receive security updates etc. as a matter of course.

    But personally I'm finding more and more that 'updates' often regress the performance of a product due to unnecessary flash new features and political modifications you'd never want or benefit from (such as this).

    If the affected users had automatic updates turned off would they be able to legally continue as they were? Would reversing the upgrade somehow implicate them? Is there a legal issue at all?

    So yeah, I like to avoid updates whenever I can. That's why I'm still running Win 98 First Edition.



    (j/k about Windows 98)

  48. I used to work a couple blocks from there, too. by gobbo · · Score: 1

    I never know such places existed in Canada, but there are bad neighborhoods everywhere I guess. Still, I've seen a lot worse in the U.S. I used to live near East St. Louis, and that place was more like a shelled-out DMZ than a town.

    One of the reasons the Downtown Eastside is the poorest neighbourhood in Canada and has tens of thousands of junkies is climate: one can survive most weather most of the year. Another is its status as Terminal City (no pun, really), since if you keep going west (or south) you wind up there. It's a regional sink, for British Columbia (and the prairies too), a vast vast area.

    The sudden surge in crystal meth use (speed, to you old timers) across the country contributes hugely to the problem. Recently I was travelling through a small town called Cache Creek, and chatting with a young clerk about life there. She complained "it's ruined... all my friends are getting into meth and crack or other stuff like "K" and they're whacked out all the time and lying, they just aren't friends anymore, it's just in the last five years, the place sucks now." I checked in other small towns and it's happening there, too. Many of these partiers go too far, fall too low, run off and they wind up junkies in Vancouver.

    But I have to say I didn't used to feel any threat there when it was mainly a heroin-and-rice-wine kind of mess. Now with speed and crack all over the place it's much more aggressive, the desperation's dangerous.

    It was always the case that parking your car down there was just a question of when, not if, you got a broken window for your loose change.

  49. Re:I don't think they are viable by Big_Breaker · · Score: 1

    I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps the Dashboard software is the critical element and OpenWRT does not have a multi-node administration feature.

    It sounds like the group in the article has an open source alternative already. Perhaps they just need to adapt to it the linksys hardware? I'd think having the code in hand for a project like OpenWRT would make that massively easier. All the hooks are nicely exposed in OpenWRT. It is one of the most impressive firmware replacement projects out there.

  50. hacker needs apostrophe, badly by spage · · Score: 1

    Is it the hackers fault that Meraki instituted a poor business model? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki ...? Is it the hackers fault that Meraki ...?

    These are all the possessive plural ("the fault of the hackers"), so they need a trailing apostrophe. Is it the hackers' fault that Meraki instituted a poor business model? Is it this hacker's fault that he or she finds grammar has rules hard? It's tough that English is complicated, but its contraction and possessive rules aren't so hard, they just overload the apostrophe and 's'. Try this guide, cheers.
    --
    =S
  51. It's not illegal. by WarJolt · · Score: 1

    There is nothing in the GPL or any open source license I know of that says you get access to the hardware. The GPL says nothing about the hardware. If they weren't strictly following the GPL they can get sued. If they didn't provide a written offer to provide the source code they are in violation. I didn't read about any violations in the article. Keep in mind that just because the system uses GPL binaries doesn't mean they can't run proprietary stuff on the system. You can run proprietary code on your Linux box at home can't you?

    http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html

    1. Re:It's not illegal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It can be illegal without being a GPL violation. After all, they obtained money from people under the understanding that the device they provided could do X, and then they took positive action to damage the device, after the money was firmly in their hands. Of course "illegal" is a broad term. Could Meraki be prosecuted under a fraud statute ? What about sales that didn't cross state lines ? What about the individuals involved, as compared to the company ? Perhaps they simply owe anyone who complains a full refund ? Does it rise to the level of "common law" fraud in that they made statements to their benefit without regards to their truth or falsity ? Did propagating the "upgrade" that downgraded the devices violate any computer hacking or virus laws ?

      Those are all nice things for law professors to figure out. But if they get me on a Jury I'll rule against Meraki, and the law professors can come up with new legal theories to explain it afterwards.

  52. FTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last week I tried installing our firmware on one of the nodes that I manage and failed 5 times in a row before I gave up. Today I learn that my failure is due to the fact that Meraki has automatically updated the software on all of the units (including legacy, such as ours) so that you cannot install a different firmware on it, at all.

    You may have a 7-digit UID, but you know how not to read the article like someone with a much, much shorter one :-)
    1. Re:FTFA by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 1

      totally missed the point. The part that they cannot install the different firmware is the proprietary part that is based on the open source MIT work, isn't it? That's the part they should create themselves from the MIT open source part if they don't want to be locked into someone else's proprietary model.

  53. Re: Whipping up some open hardware by joebob2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This platform is based on el-cheapo 802.11 b/g which is a highly competitive, low margin market.

    Basically, all the HW is in the ASICs, and the ASICs and reference SW are not open. In your example, a couple of grad students will do the work of an experienced PCB designer, which in this case will probably be OK since they will just be copying the reference design layout and handing it off to the PCB fab house.

    Unfortunately, the only way to get the chips is to deal directly with the manufacturer. If you ever want to get any chips, you will need to convince the chip company that you are worth their bother. They would rather push all their chips to their top 10 customers, which are companies like Cisco, Sony, Apple, Microsoft, etc. At low volume, all you represent is one more company that they have to spend money supporting.

    If they decide to deal with you, you will get fed their standard reference drivers. Since this project is something special, you may need register maps, the API to customize the reference drivers, and more support to get up to speed. You are now acting like a key customer instead of yet another OEM slapping some plastic around a reference design.

    I think that it would be tough to do a better job making cheap HW than some overseas OEM, and that's not the real problem anyway. The real trick is getting the Chips and SW you will need from the chip manufacturer when you are attempting to take control of things that they prefer to control. Basically, you are at odds with their sales and marketing strategy, and you do not offer large volume.

  54. Re:What a bunch of bunk by LionMage · · Score: 1

    Man, I wish I had the mod points, but hopefully others will step in and give them to you.

    I grew up in a mill town in Connecticut, and my family was not very wealthy -- they never owned a home, and because my parents had decided early on to put me through college, they decided to forego home ownership indefinitely because (at that time) colleges considered home equity when deciding who got financial aid, and how much.

    The town library was converted from an old mansion, previously owned by one of the textile mill owners. It wasn't large, and so I frequently had issues finding sufficient resources to write papers or do adequate research for a project. Typically, I'd go to neighboring towns to get superior research materials from their superior libraries; sometimes, I'd go to Hartford, because no other town had what I needed. I was in constant competition with my other classmates, and with students at other grammar- and high schools. In at least one case, a book I wanted to use as a source went missing for over a year.

    For a kid in all honors classes, it was simply understood and expected that this was "the way things were," and if I wanted good grades, I had to be fast and I had to be ruthless. But it definitely was not the way I preferred to work. The system was definitely unfair. Not every kid had parents willing to drive them two towns over to go look up some obscure book that our own library didn't have. And my parents were far better off than many of those living in my town, because my dad had a (relatively) good job working for Pratt and Whitney.

    If the Internet and the Web had existed then as they do now, I imagine some of that drudgery would have been alleviated, and far less fuel would have been burned. (I am reminded of one instance where a reference librarian got testy with me on the phone because I asked if her library had a resource -- she got on my case because she thought I was trying to get her to do my research for me. "No, ma'am, I just don't want to ask my father to drive me there this late at night unless you have what I need.") I could have focused more on the subject matter and less on doing the leg work.

    So yeah, I look at what these kind-hearted hackers are trying to do for a poor community, and think it's wonderful. Just because you have enough food on your plate and a roof over your head doesn't mean you have everything you need to be successful. My parents were stingy -- they didn't splurge on luxuries like cable TV or a CompuServe subscription. Today, a cable subscription may be necessary for you to have credibly usable network access, or else you'll be stuck in the slow lane with dial-up. Today, you need an ISP subscription if you want to have any sort of home network access. Otherwise, you're stuck going to the local library -- assuming that your library has computers with Internet access. Even so, you then have to deal with long wait times for a limited resource, along with any network filtering barriers. Any kind of low-cost or no-cost network access for poor students and their families would be a huge help.

    Incidentally, all the textile mills where I grew up were all shut down by the time I got to college. Most of those mills have either sat unused, gutted, or they've been converted into apartments and condos. I'm so glad I was able to move away and make something of myself... there were others who never made it, for whatever reason. My parents sacrificed a lot to give me an education and make a better life for myself, but many more either didn't have the resources to begin with, or refused to make those sacrifices. A project such as described in TFA would have helped a lot of kids where I grew up.

  55. Re:Just talk to them.. Right. That'll work. NOT! by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

    Because they've altered computer equipment that they didn't own, which could be a felony in some places.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  56. should be as counter-hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i sold a light bulb to u
    and somehow i like to update the EULA of the light bulb
    then i have ways to get into ur home
    then i pull the plug
    and ur home is under my control
    or no lighting at all
    hahahahaha

    when u get crackers
    u get the manufacturer

  57. Language changes, standardized spelling can't keep by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    up

    Neither can definitions.

    Falcon
  58. Vancouver by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    The cycle of gentrification is underway, with artists/creative types moving there (and doing things like rolling out a wimax network), and people renovating properties.

    If you think gentrification in Vancouver is bad wait until the 2010 Olympics. I've heard there are groups in Vancouver who are trying to get the city to do what the government in Greece did, once the Olympics there ended a lottery for the housing was held for the low income.

    Falcon
  59. So, what's the problem exactly? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    They, Meraki, changed the hardware's firmware without permission.

    Falcon