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Engineers Make Good Terrorists?
An anonymous reader writes "Engineers' focus and attention to details, along with their perceived lack of social skills, make them ideal targets to be recruited as terrorists, according to EETimes. Planning skills make engineers good 'field operatives' was written up by Raphael Perl, who heads the Action against Terrorism Unit of Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He offers that 'Engineers ideally make excellent strategic planners, and they make excellent field operatives. They think differently from how other people think.' That may sound like a stereotype, but Perl claims that 'because of those traits, terrorist groups actively recruit engineers.' He says that Al-Qaeda has widely acknowledged that a significant number of the group's top leadership had engineering backgrounds." This is the second time in just a few months that engineers have been likened to terrorists.
We've been tapping engineers for our cause ever since Counterstrike came out.
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...but alas I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. :(
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
But terrorists? Only if the engineers are lonely, disgruntled people in-general. I think most engineers would be more Constructive than Destructive by nature. Though if this holds true, then any group looking to forcibly recruit should start with engineers first. Movementarians included.
We should flood these terrorist groups with engineers and let them improve all their weapons. Afterwards, they'll have pieces left over and nothing will work. Isn't there some saying about "give an engineer a broken computer and he'll give you a working radio"?
You mean Command & Conquer: Red Alert Counterstrike, right? Since C&C had terrorist engineers long before that FPS came out...
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With a name like Perl, this man is well-suited to discuss the link between coding and terror.
Also, if you read TFA, he goes on to state that "laziness, impatience, and hubris" are the three virtues of a good terrorist.
P.S. Christ, what has happened to Slashdot's page layout today?? The goggles do nothing!
Breakfast served all day!
I hate these articles, but I can't decide if I hate them because they're intellectual snobbery (not only are we better than physicists, mathematicians, chemists, etc, we're also superlative terrorists!) or I hate them because they're anti-intellectual (Engineers are all smart and anti-social, therefore they're basically the unabomber).
Basically anyone who is methodical and knowledgeable would make a good X, where X is something that needs a methodical knowledgeable person. Engineers are required to be methodical and knowledgeable, so QED.
I don't know why they're so damn fixated on engineers though. Doesn't take an engineer to slam a plane into a building, and that's about the most successful piece of terrorism to date.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
IIRC, this isn't the first article that the EETimes has put out making this connection recently - maybe the EETimes should be investigated.
DISCLAIMER: This post was not checked for speling and grammar- if you complain- you're a whiner
Reminds me of the quote in Wargames: "He does fit the profile perfectly. He's intelligent, but an under-achiever; alienated from his parents; has few friends. Classic case for recruitment by the Soviets"
I mean, I can't be the only one who thought this would be an article about the Internet Explorer team at Microsoft?
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
That engineers plan things well should be no surprise. Engineers as a group design everything from bridges to sports stadiums to computer chips. They try to find a good balance of expected average need, overbuild and contingency performance, and cost.
That both the terrorists and those fighting the terrorists would want chemical, electrical, structural, and electronics engineers for their specific areas of expertise alone should come as no surprise. That they're also found to be good planners in general is only slightly less obvious.
The assumption that all engineers are similar to terrorists I think is a stretch.
Uhh, hello, isn't that a bit of a leap, going from the statement "Engineers make good terrorists" to the statement "They are being likened to terrorists".
It doesn't appear anyone is *likening* engineers, in general, to terrorists. What they are saying is if you can recruit engineerss to your terrorist cause, that can benefit your cause, because they are good at solving problems and planning. Well, is that not true of engineers? I don't think you can *be* an engineer if that isn't true.
I don't have any problem with the statement, "[Engineers] think differently than other people." I don't think that sounds like a stereotype. If other people thought like engineers, they'd likely *be* engineers. It takes a certain mindset, and a certain capacity to think logically and analytically to be an engineer. Unfortunately, this mindset doesn't necessarily inherently exclude any thought patterns which lead someone to become a terrorist in the first place. (After all, one man's terrorist is often another man's freedom fighter or courageous defender of the faith).
Are all engineers the *same*? No. Is there a certain commonality they share in how they think / solve problems which is not shared with the general public? I think the answer is likely yes.
Engineers make good EVERYTHING.
1. A true engineer would is proud of the work that they do, therefore not hiding it. Hard to hide a bomb that you are proud of.
2. Engineers can't lie (see Dilbert). Therefore, when asked, "Are you a spy?" they answer yes.
3. That when they see a problem, they bring it to the attention of others. So, when they see a security hole, they will point it out instead of abusing it.
4. When they do something, they will tell everyone about it.
Fight Spammers!
I frankly find the analysis to be flattering. I don't have to agree with who I am being compared with to appreciate the comparison.. only the qualities being compared are important.
So, thanks for the complement
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
How do you tell if an engineer is an introvert or an extrovert?
The extrovert looks at your shoes.
Overall, it's hard to disagree with the article. Heck, a guy who has the persistence and brains to go through the gruesome class schedules of an Engineering school will not be easily deterred by obstacles. And he is inventive by training if not nature.
An engineer could easily turn bad... And he'd be very good at being bad, if he has the motivation. So the conclusion should be obvious: don't alienate engineers.
That said, I recently met a very nice and competent guy from Pakistan who is in the USA on an H1B visa. He is a PHP developer, and he is quite good. We discussed finances, and to my horror, I found out that he is making $1100/month. His employer houses him in an appartment along with six other H1Bs, so he prolly saves $1000/month in rent, but still, this is an insultingly low pay rate for such a qualified guy, but a factor 4 at least.
Now, this guy is very nice, and way too busy to even think about trouble. But I can't help thinking my reaction if I was dropped into a country where I would make less than your average waiter, after years of hard schooling. I'd harbor a grudge, that's for sure.
So a piece of advice for Execs and VPs: don't be too stingy with your folks. Them techie weirdos can turn into rampaging monster at the drop of a hat. Heck, I'll give them free espressos and decent raisses if I were you. :-)
Fantasy: http://ferrisfantasy.blogspot.com/
Because people who can think rationally scare everyone else. We always have "good luck" (planning ahead), or can solve problems in seconds that they've been fighting with for hours. Not to mention a lot of us aren't religious, which makes us different, and therefore evil. Just like those "terrists" who believe in that other god and just want to kill all those red-blooded Americans.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
what does it pay? Health care? Time off? Options? Company Car?
I'd have to agree that it's a fairly thin correlation to draw. Mind you, if I were going to blow something up, I suppose I'd want somebody with an engineering background in demolitions as opposed to an art major.
The question is where you'd fine such an engineer. Unless he/she is already a bit of a nutjob, an engineering background should come with decent employment options and intelligence that would somewhat contrast with the somewhat brainwashed or easily overwhelmed variety of terrorist-recruit that tends to be more readily available.
Recruiting engineers to be terrorists, likely not. Training terrorists to be engineers would be more likely.
As an undergraduate physics student in the late 60's I made a number of comments about the total incompetence of the various radical groups. When one radical tried to get me to provide guidance for one of the groups (I still don't know if he actually had the contact) I replied that if I wanted to get into that business, I would go to work for the feds and that the group in question would either get arrested or blow themselves up, both logical and deserved consequences of their stupidity. They did. And they didn't even take out any innocent bystanders.
If you are scared of change, you are not going to like dealing with engineers and scientists. They enable it. Build it up, tear it down, secure it, penetrate it. Engineering can do both good and bad. So can science. Different organizations may have different definitions of good and bad.
That's the problem with engineers: they are never content. Always searching for a better way. Always trying to change things.
So what if the new skin is crude, broken, inefficient, obstructive, and plain ugly to boot? Just bend over and accept the changes like everybody else. Or are you some kind of a terrorist.
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
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Lack of social skills? No way. I actually had a date last year, thank you very much. We even almost kissed.
We were supposed to go out on a second date, but she got the flu, and then her mother was sick, after that her grandma died and her father had a heart attack and she couldn't make it.
I figured I was better off anyway. With that many people sick in her family, she must have had horrible genes.
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
Don't make that mistake.
Don't think 'smart' people can't be brainwashed, misled, or wrong in a belief. In many cases smart people are EASIER to brainwash.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I think you misspelled "end users"... :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
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You sound like a good engineer. Would you like to join our club to design remote controlled, um, toy cars?
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
Didn't the GDI engineers have the same ability? IIRC, in the first C&C either side could take over a building with a lone engineer. Then C&C:RA required either a van full of them, or some damage to the building ahead of time.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I'm an Electrical Engineer.
THIS MAKES ME SO ANGRY I WANT TO BLOW SOMETHING UP!
And yeah, C&C had Engineers. You could take over buildings with them, as long as the building health was below 50%. Otherwise, they would damage the building.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
If very many competent engineers were terrorists, terrorism would be far more devastating than it is today.
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Some one better keep a eye on the mythbusters as they have easy access to bomb makeing parts and are good at bypass Security and safety devices.
They make horrible CEOs because they are detailed oriented
... engineering! See link.
Actually engineers don't make bad CEOs. The most common CEO undergrad degrees in S&P 500 companies is
The Department Of Homeland Security lists Underwriters' Laboratories as a "Terrorist Organization", and tech schools as "Terrorist Training Camps".
That degree in Engineering now seems less like a Badge Of Honor and more like the Mark Of The Devil.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
But most of the terrorist groups the US seems concerned with today wouldn't appeal to the interest of a vast majority of Slashdot's readership. Unless, of course, there was a great deal of money involved.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. There are people who think that the oppression of the English state justifies the actions of the IRA. For them, the IRA fights for freedom. For England, the IRA are terrorists.
Buddhist monks are "terrorists" to the red Chinese- they certainly use tactics we would consider "terrifying", such as pouring gas on a reverend monk and lighting him on fire in opposition to the southern Vietnamese regime.
+5, Truth
A real engineer would not be an asset to a terror-seeking team. If it is terror driven by religion, I can guarantee you that the engineer will always be the odd man out that won't want to stick to the rules, be it scheduling of prayers or that pork rinds are not acceptable, etc.
What you want is a sleeper. You find the right kind of young recruit that will make a good engineering student. Indoctrinate first, engineering education later. If you try to indoctrinate an engineer you will probably end up losing your own religion over the ordeal.
--
Pedro
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The Insomniac Coder
The reign of terror imposed by GDI can only be ended by GDI+. Or maybe OpenGL.
Why not fork?
The Myers-Briggs personality theories predicted this congruence. Engineers tend to be NTs, or iNtuitive Thinkers. So do CEOs, generals, scientists, programmers, mathmeticians, and revolutionary leaders. Might as well say that CEOs, scientists, and generals share a lot in common with terrorists. Fact is that they do, and it's because intuitive thinkers (NTs) parse the world in terms of principles, axioms, models, and abstractions based on logic and reason as the NT understands them. They can be willing to fight, kill, and die for a principle or belief. Most people will fight to protect themselves, to protect family, or by extension their own country, but most will not fight for an abstraction. However to an NT an abstraction can be real and worthy of being defended. That is why IMO the NT mindset can be persuaded to join a revolutionary group and be effective at it and at the same time morally at peace with himself over his actions, even if those actions are seen to be high treason by the majority.
'Engineers ideally make excellent strategic planners, and they make excellent field operatives. They think differently from how other people think.' ... 'because of those traits, terrorist groups actively recruit engineers.'
Well, gosh. I'd've never thunk it.
The part that surprises me is not that terrorist groups recognize that good strategic thinkers should be actively recruited, but that US corporations typically pay more to socially proficient people even if they lack good strategic thinking skills. That is not to say that there are no business people who are exceedingly adept strategic thinkers (they may even be more rare and perhaps more valuable than good engineers), just that there are so many nimrod schmoozers getting wheelbarrows full of cash for short-term-oriented stupidity (see Bear Stearns; how could I see the real estate crash coming in 2002 and they missed it?!? With all those MBAs! And they get bailed out?!?!?! FEH!).
OK, maybe I'm just venting.
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Bravo, you hit the nail on the head there. As you said, I doubt anyone *IN* the engineering community actually takes this seriously, but my question is how do we get word out?
This is one issue among many. The problem is not this issue, but the trend that it represents. In order to restore political and social stability, we need to change the cognitive norm.
There's a small minority with innovative thoughts and real solutions to real problems, but in order to make things happen they need the backing of the community at large. Right now their voices are, for the most part, drowned out in the noise of infomercials, advertisements, and propaganda. So how do we change the intellectual landscape at large?
These are the questions I ask myself. It's not enough for me to throw my opinion out there, I need to do something. We all do. We see the problems, is it not our responsibility then to *DO* something about them? There must be a way to change the situation. So slashdotters, what do you have to say? What do you think can be done to revolutionize the way the world thinks? Can we turn this boat around, or are we doomed to kill each other over religious and political differences, just before the space age finally begins?
They weren't "pioneers" in this style of warfare. Combat engineers have existed since ancient times. In fact the word "engineer" comes from their activities, working the siege engines such as catapults, battering rams, etc. As an aside, in the British and related armies, a "pioneer" is an infantry soldier with some combat engineering training. A pioneer in those armies is trained to blow things up in close combat.
Engineering has traditionally been for fighting wars. See the Royal Engineers for example. Over time, people have started to think of engineering as a peaceful profession, but there are still many combat engineers in the world, ready to blow things up.
Al Qaeda has been hopelessly and purposefully over-hyped. We in the US and to some extent other Western powers went looking for a vast international octopus to put the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame. We were told there were sleepers everywhere and huge underground control compounds somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan. Years later almost every so-called terrorist cell case has fallen apart as utterly empty and not one bit of major organizational infrastructure or evidence has come to light. The truth is that Al Qaeda is tiny and not very well funded. There is no serious wide-spread and powerful terrorist movement afoot. All that energy pretending there was was merely an excuse for greatly curtailing freedom, massively increasing government power and control and creating military power bases in certain highly strategic spots. It is high time we put paid to this vicious nonsense and utterly rejected any arguments or suggestions made on such a basis.
Engineers, especially of the hackerish variety, scare control freaks of every stripe. I think that is a very good thing.