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Old Subway Cars As Artificial Reef
Pickens writes "Hundreds of retired New York City subway cars are being sunk sixteen nautical miles off Delaware's Indian River Inlet and about 80 feet underwater, continuing the transformation of a barren stretch of ocean floor into a bountiful oasis, carpeted in sea grasses, walled thick with blue mussels and sponges, and teeming with black sea bass and tautog. 'They're basically luxury condominiums for fish,' says Jeff Tinsman, artificial reef program manager for the Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control. Subway cars are roomy enough to invite certain fish, too heavy to shift easily in storms, and durable enough to avoid throwing off debris for decades. Tinsman particularly favors the newer subway cars with stainless steel on the outside to create reefs. 'We call these the DeLoreans of the deep,' he said. But success comes at a price because other states, seeing Delaware's successes, have started competing for the subway cars, which New York City provides free. 'The secret is out, I guess,' said Michael G. Zacchea, the MTA official in charge of getting rid of New York City's old subway cars."
This shore is a good idea! (speaking littorally of course)
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Are these the same as the ones on the CSI NY episode like last year?
You fools! If the dolphins develop time travel there will be no stopping them!
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
1. dump some old trash in the previously perfectly fine ocean
2. ???
3. LUXURY CONDOMINIUMS FOR FISH
The fish will create vast underground cities, and soon they will begin a hostile takeover!
..."look, we finally found Atlantis! How else could all this stuff get here?"
Table-ized A.I.
How long until NYC starts charging for the cars?
(and how much can they make this way while still making people want them?)
Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
Getting mugged by a harpoon weilding, cowry shell demanding aquatic gang member. Insane.
Task Mangler
What a great idea!
And, this article coming right after the article showing how the major oilfield in North Dakota might just be viable.
There's hope for this country yet!
I wish there were some underwater photos showing what the subway cars are like after spending several years underwater. (The CGI animation doesn't count.)
Dr. Demento On The 'Net!
I actually read this article earlier today (they're coming for my slashdot credibility card!) and it mentioned the amount of asbestos and other materials in the cars. Does anyone know how that comes into play in a marine environment?
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
Please keep it there!
With an eye on recycling materials and reducing construction costs for storage cellars, some wineries in northern Mexico have opted for this great idea:
Dig a deep trench, place old RR cars inside, then fill the trench up again with dirt. And there it is, a cave build like a Lego. A little bit of retrofitting may be necessary, especially where car doors meet, but still, you can save a ton of money in this fashion.
Surely, not only Mexican wineries are using the same technique.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
actually help the coral and plankton grow!
I thought scrap metal values had gone insane recently - I know this is a sort of recycling, but I'm surprised the cars aren't worth a lot for the steel.
Brisbane,QLD has had an old Brisbane Transport tram as part of the Curtin Artificial Reef since 1981.
http://www.urgq.org/curtin_artif_reef.htm
Out here we've sunken many ships to make underwater habitats for fish. The boats are stripped of oils, paints, and hazardous stuff before sinking -- well, nowadays, anyway. Great for scuba divers to look at, so I've been told.
I can't find a great link in 10s of searching, but this is a start:
http://www.divingbc.com/
Hoopla, I tried for ten minutes find anything about the negative impacts of artificial reefs, using Google Scholar ( http://scholar.google.com/ ).
I used "artificial" and "reefs" in combinations with words like "bioaccumulation", "pcb", "tyres", "pollutants", "chemicals", etc.
Surprisingly, I only found statements like "needs more research", "no measurable effect" and no-brainers like that.
Could it be that I missed those true alarmist reports I guessed would be there?! One read like:
http://www.flseagrant.org/program_areas/ecosystem_health/artificial_reefs/index.htm#21
"The oil ash and control reefs were constructed with the aid of divers in just one day, and monitoring of the reefs was carried out for one year. Leaching of trace metals from the blocks was extremely slow, and only limited instances of enhanced bioaccumulation of metals were observed. However, pressure from environmental groups led the electric power industry and the State of Florida to discontinue construction of artificial reefs from stabilized waste material."
I don't want to play this in the hands of waste mongers, but hope some could actually find some more conclusive results.
Don't get me wrong. Play it safe, please.
.
A very pretty picture is painted for what amounts to environmental vandalism. (paraphrasing): "We are creating a tropical paradise, where diversity parallels that of the Galapagos Islands. The majestic undersea garden will support myriad species, the colours and the life will rival any natural environment, and will, in fact, surpass anything that nature could create. We are dumping this waste in the ocean for the common good. The beautiful seaweed will dance a serenade, attracting fishes and tourists alike. Because the trash increases the potential habitats (and micro-climates), species diversity must increase--niche species which would otherwise have difficultly surviving will flourish.
Yes, dumping rubbish is the sea is a Good Idea(TM). The secret is out!
Maybe it'll work out better this time...
Sound to me like we are actually creating a picture of the future seen in so many sci-fi films. Like, you are on the planet earth thousands of years in the future and everything is underwater and the earth has reclaimed it's resources, shaped by man long ago, and turned them into pseudo-natural landscape. Kind of like the end of that movie AI. Except we don't have to wait for civilization to be obliterated. We can do it ourselves!
"Taboo, like anything else, goes in and out of style."
Wouldn't make much of a difference either way to global warming.
To the degree it increases marine biomass, it's just as effective as increasing any OTHER biomass for capyuring CO2. So in theory it would decrease global warming.
Much too small an effect to be measurable.
It -has- been suggested that spreading iron on the ocean in areas where lack of iron is the limiter on plant-growth would allow much more plants to grow and thus capture a lot of CO2. I think the biggest uncertanity there was for how -long- the CO2 would stay out of the atmosphere.
If a significant fraction of the dead plants sink, retention would be good, hundreds of years at the very least. If most of them decompose near the surface and the CO2 is released from the water, there wouldn't be much benefit.
A similar thing was attempted with used car tires. It did not work. The surface of the tires was not suitable for sea life to attach to. In addition to that, individual tires got loose from the packages and drifted with the currents. It was a disaster. Now they are attempting to retrieve what they can. Please give a link if you know the details. I think it was in Florida or somewhere on the east coast.
Future Fisherman : Look what I found at the bottom of the sea.
Future schmuck : See! More proof of God!
Nemo: Dad I wanna go for a ride on the subway current! Dad: you kiddin petrol prices are up the roof! besides when we were your age we stuck to our schools.
...there'd been some kind of situation, perhaps a war, that had deposited large numbers of relatively stable metal objects on the sea floor, where their effect on local flora and fauna could be studied over, say, 63 years.
The vast majority of Deloreans ever made are still on the road, driving, in good condition. I'd call these the Yugos of the deep instead.
Couldn't these cars be given to another city or town?
A train is pretty expensive (e.g. refurbishing old trains in London is costing £1million per train, it's several times that amount for a new train). Fair enough if the subway trains in New York are too outdated to be refurbished, but if this isn't the case they should be in another city that can't afford new trains.
(For one example, the Pyongyang Metro in North Korea uses old trains from subways given to them by East Germany.)
How about using all the iPod competitors that have failed ? Or Gene Simmons used contraceptives ? Ick! But the fish would love it.
Did no-one else notice the most important part of this story?
You can get subway cars for free!
I'll have five, thanks.
(too bad Windows is just software)
Damn you, Apple! Why do you keep turning my subway cars into bricks after every other update?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
-dZ.
Carol vs. Ghost
What self-respecting aquatic citizen would voluntarily like to live in one of these grafitti-covered wagons?
All of these "artificial reef" projects seem questionable to me.
The idea that tossing junk into offshore waters is beneficial... well, as the Church Lady used to say, "Isn't that convenient?"
In the 1970s, there was a similar project in Florida, involving discarded tires. The system used to hold the tires in place failed after a few years, tires started to come loose, the fact that it wasn't stable made it a failure as an artificial reef, mildly toxic stuff started to leech out of the tires, and the whole thing was an environmental disaster. The process of cleaning up the tires, now in progress, is expensive and labor-intensive. Read about it here
The sea is a very corrosive environment. Before starting this project, did anyone check to see whether there are any subway cars that have already been in the ocean for a few decades to see what's happened to them?
In the case of these subway cars, I'd worry about copper. Copper is deadly poison to most marine organisms. It's the bane of people who try to set up salt-water aquaria.
I notice that the article doesn't say that the subway cars contained no electric wiring. Nor does it say that all the copper was removed from them before scuttling them.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
They should do this with barrels of nuclear waste too.
If a significant fraction of the dead plants sink, retention would be good, hundreds of years at the very least. If most of them decompose near the surface and the CO2 is released from the water, there wouldn't be much benefit.
Erm, if they decompose in the water and release tons of CO2, won't it turn into carbonic acid and decrease the water's pH? (It wouldn't be by a lot, but the whole point to this is that small changes may produce systemic effects.)
Then why did I get arrested for pushing a car into the local river? I was trying to help the environment, people!
Those who have telepathy have no need to RTFA.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
like hydrocarbon grease and lubricant, paints and coatings with possibly toxic compounds, the plasticizers and antioxidants in the plastic and foam,......
you could keep an entire university of scientists busy for years
and alot of the stuff is probably, if you look hard, sourced from china, so it may not even be what it is supposed to be, eg very very toxix pbbs (poly brominated biphenyls) are banned in civilized countrys..
scrap steel metal only very recently became really expansive (within the last two monthes).
look at the fourth column for scrap steel price. See how much it rose in the last 2-3 monthes and over last year.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Like UK in the 70th they dropped some within the channel between France/UK.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
ask nicely and you shall receive.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/waste/categories/tires/pages/osbornepilot.htm
Yeah - but because of the sub-prime mortgage market messing up the economy and real estate market, the fish are all moving out, and now the luxury fish condos have turned into a dilapidated ghetto. These once pristine condos are now high crime areas mainly inhabited by "Rock Crabs", known for selling crack cocaine.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
This is realllllly disturbing to read, they are trying to justifying their need to trash the ocean and rid of their unwanted cheaply. RECYCLE, the price of metal is rising, why not just hand this to CHINA, they are more than willing to take any 'trash' America throws away. Besides they will only make cheap products back to us at a higher (profit) cost.
The first one his I read was Zodiac - The Eco Thriller, and then Snow Crash. And then I bought every book he's ever written 'cause I liked his interesting points of view and writing style. So with all due respect, or apologies to, Mr. Stephenson - here's a great quote from the protagonist of the novel. It's Sangamon Taylor, the Granola James Bond (Errr, The Toxic Spiderman, right!):
... The intern had also discovered a vague little article from the late Sixties saying that Basco had put some "junk machinery" on the floor of the Harbor, giving the usual feeble excuse.
"They claim that this junk was going to become a habitat for marine life. You don't buy that?"
Bless her, she did know how to blow my lid. "Rebecca, goddammit, since the beginning of time, every corporation that has ever thrown any of its shit into the ocean has claimed that it was going to become a habitat for marine life. It's the goddamn ocean, Rebecca. That's where all the marine life is. Of course it's going to become a habitat for marine life."
The best we can hope for is the increased biomass sinks, is covered by silt, heated and compressed, and turns back into oil.
I had to re-read this article a few times. They can't be serious.... Dumping trash in the ocean and calling it a good thing??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/01/AR2006100101090.html
Well... subway cars are heavier than tires, so we won't have anything else to worry about. Really, this time its ok.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
They used this in one of last season's episodes of CSI:NY. They found a dead scuba diver, and that led them to discover another one lodged in a submerged subway car.
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
...Those were perfectly usable housing for the downtrodden masses of the declining United States.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
This reminds me of the people that complain about oil rigs in the environment and yet they create some of the best fishing areas around for the same reason. The rigs become a reef environment.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
I completely misread this. I thought they were talking about a "different" Subway, and thought they were going to make an artificial reef out of Jarod.
Man, my bubble has burst.
It might be fun to convert one into an office. Pre-lit, lots of windows, and likely watertight. Better than an old school bus, anyway.
Now, getting it here... that could be tricky.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
http://www.divemaster.ca/boeing/
Prior to the sinking it went through an extensive environmental cleanup until eventually all that was left was metal.
People have sunk objects with the purpose of protecting coasts for hundreds of years. For example see http://www.vitiaz.ru/congress/en/thesis/149.html. Also there is a big ship that was sunk in front of Venice hundreds of years ago to limit the tidal effects.
This would most likely play a very minuscule part in capturing CO2. The most important part of it is increasing habitat niches for specialized fishes, but not so much pelagic ones.
The ocean naturally acts as a sink for carbon in general due to its nature of resisting changes in acidity with the chemical pathways that bicarbonate takes in the ocean. The bicarb acts as a buffer but its action is reduced with increased acidification (which does happen from increased CO2 absorption), which would reduce the effectiveness of the ocean to absorb inorganic carbon, which also harms organisms utilizing calcification. The calcium carbonate those organisms use actually help increase bicarb levels though. So this is one hugely complex system that I tried to shrink down here, but didn't really do it justice.
As for the iron thing, iron is a limiting metal for coral as well as other plants and animals in the ocean. One downfall with spreading iron in the ocean is that it can lead to blooms of algae that die off and consume all available oxygen when decomposing, and in the case of dinoflagellates release neurotoxins into the water, so you would have to do it during certain times of the year when specific phytoplankton dominate.
I could talk about this for days since it is what I want to get into as a career, so sorry for the long rant.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
It seems that if you create a man made reef and then run low voltage electricity through it coral will grow 5-10 times faster.
When I honeymooned in Bali we went snorkeling around these structures. They seemed perfectly safe and the corals were amazing. The coral growth on the structures seemed far more prolific than that on the ocean bottom.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Ok, they're Steel subway cars, that need to be stripped before they're sunk into the ocean. What is so horribly wrong with these huge steel structures that they cant be refit for continued use, or melted down to make a frame that can be.
"Welp, looks like this one has a broken bearing, better tear off the trucks and throw it in the sea."
Huh?
If I lived in NY, I would NOT be happy to hear that my city was *giving* *away* old subway cars. I have to assume that even as scrap these things are pretty valuable. I'm glad someone is using them for a (seemingly) good purpose, but this seems pretty foolish on the part of NY city.
Subway cars go through lots of maintenance before they reach a point where they would be retired. It isn't a decision that is reached casually since most subway systems remain "short" on operating stock. Even when they get the money to buy new cars there are usually lots of delays in production of new ones. \n When they reach the point of loosing structural integrity it would be prohibitively costly to fix them. Stripped down, the shells are a good basis for building artificial reefs. Some construction/demolition material (concrete chunks with rebar) can also be used to build reefs. You can't just take take anything an dump it in the water (i.e., explosive demolition results in oil products and many toxic materials). \n There are several big ticket pollution sources to worry about more than this. First is plastic--whether bags (which look like jellyfish to many predators like turtles) to the plastic connectors for 6 packs (which can entangle or constrict) these are everywhere in the ocean, though they tend to collect in certain areas due to ocean currents. Second is sewage, whether discharged by costal cities or by ships at sea (there are really weak controls over what a ship can dump at sea and what pretreatment of the waste has to be made--something to consider the next time you see a cruise line commercial). Third is industrial pollution, whether acid rain from smoke stacks or even just the fertilizer (mostly petroleum products) we use on lawns and farms, and the run of from the wastes created by feedlots (hog farms being one notorious source in the mid-Atlantic states). The artificial reefs provide a habitat for fish and help moderate some of the shore erosion. Of course if we could stop littering and dumping into rivers.....
How long do you think it will take the fish to work out that the train is out of service? If they are all experienced AMTRAK passengers, it could be a very long time.
Squirrel!
IANABiologist, but I do have a planted aquarium. There are a few other things to consider:
Better used and more eco-friendly, buried
and used for neighborhood bomb shelters, storage, etc.
RR
In my land, we are busy training artisans to carve new subway cars out of old coral.
These new cars are gorgeous, as well as ecologically friendly- there is no mining or smelting, and the CO2 footprint is exceedingly small!
.
- aqk
F U