Slashdot Mirror
Chinese Blogs, Netizens React To the Tibet Issue
Bibek Paudel writes "Over the past few weeks Chinese bloggers and people on Internet forums have been reacting to events in Tibet and the protests disrupting the torch relay. The BBC and Global Voices have interesting insights on the recent happenings on the Net. A western commentator says, 'Lots of Chinese people now view the Western media, human rights groups, and Western leaders' criticisms of their country as part of the Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful.' One of the most vocal appeals by the Chinese blogs, forums, and text-messages has been to boycott French goods in response to the protests that accompanied the torch relay in Paris. One response post reads, 'Who is abusing human rights? Who is bringing violence to this world?' There also are two versions of music video of the song Don't Be Too CNN, and its lyric has assumed the status of a cult catch-phrase. Sina.com has a popular page: 'Don't be too CNN, fire to the Western media.' Many analysts believe that the protests over Tibet have only served to strengthen Chinese nationalism rather than evoke sympathy for the Tibetan cause. Sina.com has a petition against the Western media which has reportedly accumulated millions of signatures. There is also Mutant Palm, a blog by an expatriate in China who has been watching and commenting on the fallout from Tibet and torch protests online."
I'd like to say nationalism is the new evil, but, unfortunately it's been around for as long as there has been nations.
More Twoson than Cupertino
Because of China's overt and explicit censorship of the news media, those outside of China (and probably those inside China, too, for that matter) can't possibly be aware of the actual sentiments of the Chinese people.
Basically, what's going to happen is that the pro-Tibet folks will be squelched, either by the Great Firewall of China, imprisonment, or self-censorship, and so only those voices advocating the pro-Tibet stance will be allowed through the filtering and be heard as the "popular" sentiment of the Chinese people.
As long as they call all non-Chinese media "Western Media" they clearly cannot seriously criticize it in any meaningful way. I mean, Fox News, Slashdot, BBC, FAZ and Corriere della Sera are all part of same group of anti-Chinese conspiracy? With that argument, dear Chinese blogging friends, you are becoming pretty laughable.
839*929
please never use the word "netizens" ever again, in any circumstance.
thank you,
the internet users who aren't douchebags
So our past injustices excuse their modern day oppression?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
WEll maybe we are hypocrites, but I can still write an invective against my government and not get trundled off to prison where I'm to be re-educated.
Better a hypocrite than a slave to tyrants.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Chinese culture is vastly different from western cultures. People either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge this. They've always been ruled by a totalitarian regime, communism is just another variation. They aren't apt to enact quick changes unless their is an actual benefit. Some of the people I've talk to, point to Russia as an example of why it's not a good idea to quickly move to a democratic system.
That and people don't like to be told why their country is bad. Just look at America.
China is pretty much a race. China has had a culture of extermination and assimilation for the last couple thousand years that has led them to have 92% of their subjects sharing a single ethnicity. This is what they're trying to do in Tibet - move in Han Chinese to overwhelm and eventually erase everything Tibettan about Tibet. It's the same way the U.S. basically stole Texas from Mexico a long time ago. I'm glad, though, that immigration and a relative attitude of acceptance toward diversity has made America such a diverse place. I'd hate to become a Borg.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
On one hand I don't get good coverage of the situation in Tibet because western reporters just do not go there. And on the other hand Chinese reporting is state run and thus essentially a state run propaganda outlet.
Having observed the Dali Lama's tours and speeches for the last few year I find Chinese media assertion that The Dali Lama is running a terrorist network absurd, but their reporting to the contrary might be causing Tibetan supporters of the Dali Lama to become more extreme as the only media source available to them tell them that the Dali Lama is urging armed uprising.
In many ways the Chinese government is seeding the dissent which will give them an excuse for violent oppression of the Tibetan people. I am not sure whether this is evidence of a brilliantly executed evil agenda or standard government incompetence.
do they call french fries fuck tibet fries in china?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Mod parent up, moral relativism is a bullshit creed of cowards and sophists.
If you haven't made a developer cry, you've wasted a day.
You mean like the racist western conspiracy that instigated a war with a formerly allied country mainly because of that countries despicable actions in China? And how did the West get repaid for taking that stance and helping to liberate China? With the Chinese intervention against the United Nations (not just the United States) during the Korean War. Nice going -- we help to stop Japanese aggression and get repaid by China flipping off the entire World to support an aggressive regime that tried to conquer it's Southern neighbor.
If they want to make this into a nationalist cause celebre then somebody should remind them that there's a lot more history behind Chinese relations with the West then just the unequal treaties and not all of that history is the West "oppressing" China.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
So our ongoing injustices excuse their behavior in Tibet and towards their own people?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I think this is a great example of what the 21st century has in store.
I have a lot of Chinese (national) friends, even one who is a member of the CCP. They definitely take the Tibet protests personally. The CCP has been very clever at manipulating national sentiment on this issue, and it is very interesting to me because it is a clash between the western narrative of China as a brutal oppressor and the eastern narrative of the west as a patronizing colonial force.
Talking to Chinese of all stripes, I find they don't understand the western image of China is a man standing down a tank. That isn't the life they came from. On the other hand, most can't grapple with the Maoist atrocities. They're taught all about the opium wars and colonialism, though. So when east meets west, both sides see the world in very different light.
Personally, while I do worry about Tibetan culture being diluted and people being oppressed, I'm not sure that (a) I have the moral standing to tell others not to opppress people (It's not like we're going to offer Hawaii autonomy now, is it?) (b) it's generally good for every ethnic group to live in its own autonomous enclave.
I also think that worrying about cultural dilution is something rich nations can ponder, along with rights for dogs, and all the other quandaries of affluence.
I do wish the Chinese would confront the human rights abuses in their past more fully. I wish they had better protections for workers and better labor laws. Communist regimes seem to always have this problem. If the government is made of labor unions ("soviets"), but the union is no longer responsive to the workers needs, who can they turn to?
It's not an idle question. Look at the coal mine riots in the USSR during the 30's. The workers "unionized" and complained about unsafe conditions and long hours. The government, nominally concerned primarily with the average worker, sent in the troops who busted the riot in a way that would make Pinkertons blush.
I'm not saying that's how life in China is, but I am saying it's a structural flaw of a one-party government. But if it looks like I'm casting stones from my glass house, I'd say that my own government was set up to have competition between branches that would protect my freedoms. However, the formation of political parties has lead to collusion between branches, undoing much of the good envisioned by the writers of our constitution. It'd be nice to have a structural change here to deal with that.
Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
They're calling us hypocrites, and as a citizen of "the West" I can say they're exactly right.
No they aren't. There's no censorship in the west to the extent there is China. There's no individual right to keep and bear arms in China like there is in the west. The differences are staggering and people that proclaim dictatorship whenever politics don't go their way do more to undermine the very definition of what a dictatorship really is.
This is my sig.
I have long held that Tibetans are doomed. It is the exact reason why Gandhism fails - it has in the core a belief that oppressor will feel you pain at some point (or shame at oppressing you, whichever way you put it).
But in this day and age of "remote" media, there is no (visual) connection between people - and the assumption fails at the very premise.
If Tibetans had an army, fought a war - and lost - they would have a much better say.
"Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful."
It struck me as I read that that I've heard this line before in another sphere.
It's exactly what (some, mainly republican) Americans say about the rest of the world's concerns about pollution and global warming.
It's a conspiracy to stop the US being succesful, driven by jealousy of what they are achieving.
In both cases it's ludicrous.
I'm not sure that the west's hypocrisy is relevant. For one there are many United States politicians have the testicular fortitude to stand up and condemn China. Secondly I am unclear just how the US is even vaguely capable of stopping China from doing anything much less from being successful. Lastly the existence of one hypocritical government of earth isn't a get out of morality for free pass for the rest of the governments we have.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
europe sent crusaders to the middle east
both of these things are wrong
however, you wish to use events of 200 years ago and 1000 years ago to excuse and condone the same kind of colonization by han imperialists in tibet today, or the actions of violent muslim fundamentalists today
this is not morality or a human conscience
the only morally and intellectually defensible position is to condemn:
1. the slaughter of native americans
2. european crusaders
3. han imperialism
4. violent muslim fundamentalism
condemn all of it. that's morality and intellectual honesty
to excuse 3 and 4 because of 1 and 2 is i don't know exactly what, but its not morality or intellectual honesty. its some sort of weird kind of attempt to avoid a human conscience
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
different leaders at different times...
china helping out north korea was one communist nation helping out another, after UN forced had chased north korean into chinese territory iirc...
on the other hand, the leadership of china during ww2 ended up fleeing to what is now taiwan after the communist uprising.
and btw, china do not recognice taiwan as a nation. they insist that its chinese territory. but they do not invade as that would risk all out war with usa, who helped set up taiwan...
got to love that stuff. in us eyes, anything other then communist leadership was good. it could be just as dictatorial or worse then the communists, as long as they where not communists...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
you have no idea how true this is.
I am currently teaching ESL in Korea.
there are a lot of Chinese people working in Korea, and since they speak limited English, and I am here with a friend who speaks Chinese, and we are foreigners in a strange land, we spend a lot of time together, talking.
One day, Tienanmen square came up, and they wondered why Westerners always made a big deal about that particular spot.
"it was just a bunch of bad students" one said to me. she knew something happened there one, but no specifics.
that was all they knew.
Tienanmen was just "A bunch of bad students"
I went online, showed them that famous footage.
there was shock, outrage, and disbelief.
2 of them now refuse to return to China.
makes you wonder what our governments are hiding from us.
My Chinese friends are always making little jabs at me here and there, because British Colonialism was so awful, and wrong. And being white makes me inherently guilty of everything wrong with the world. (despite the fact that i am not British)
They all agree that Tibet is a part of China
I told them all "fine, i will agree to that, Tibet is as much a part of China as India is a part of Britian."
-I only code in BASIC.-
Two things:
1. I think it's pretty dangerous to try and 'dictate' anything to a country armed with nuclear weapons and ICBMs. This includes China and the United States.
2. Yes, I think our ongoing injustices (Gitmo comes to mind) should be part of the global discussion. I also think our Allies and Trading Partners should be encouraging us to live up to past promises (*cough* Geneva Conventions *cough*) and the better parts of our history.
In that same vain, I don't think the West should be dictating anything to China. But we don't need to be their lapdogs either. We don't need to overlook their abuses simply because it's profitable to do business with them.
Personally, while I'm not going to encourage a boycott of the Olympics, I'm not really feeling any particular desire to go out of my way to watch them either. I felt a lot better about them when the Chinese were treating them as a well-deserved (IMHO) reintroduction to the World after decades of oppression and stagnation. If they turn them into a nationalist spectacle than I don't think comparisons between 2008 and 1936 are entirely unjustified.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Yup - you're absolutely right. It's nothing but nationalism run amok. I find it particularly amusing that the Chinese are pissed off at the French as well. This has the exact echoes of the nationalistic frenzy many Americans were in when the French decided to not believe the WMD bullshit.
To be honest, I'm far more concerned about that than Al-Qaeda. Remember what happened the last time nationalism was this rampant and blind? 2 countries were invaded - 1 without any reason. Furthermore, many of the internal violence across the world can be traced to excessive attachment to a particular tribe/ethnicity/nation. The exception to that are the various communist movements and drug cartels.
Here's something else I've learned from the comments left by Chinese nationalists on various blogs and news stories: they have less in common with me than I have in common with Iraqis. Their concept of free speech is completely different. Their concept of human rights is completely different. Their concept of historic relativism is completely different. Here's what I see:
Chinese nationalists value territorial integrity, international face, unity and harmony above all. I value individual self-determination and free speech above all - in other words, chaos over harmony.
You can easily see this in their rage against news outlets, where a bad story about a Chinese government action is taken as an insult from all of western civilization against all of China.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Just because our leaders are hypocrites doesn't make me one. And something that is evil is evil regardless of who calls it out.
They should call us on the things we do just as much as we should call them on the things they do.
China's government is evil. Why shouldn't we be able to say that?
Actually, the Japanese actually helped the Communists in China. At a time when the communists were about to be crushed by the national government, the Japanese invaded and distracted the national army long enough to let the communists get strong.
It's a pretty dramatic story, actually. The nationals had chased the communists all the way from southern China up to the north, spent months doing so in what is known as Mao's Long March, and were finally about to crush the rebellion. The nationals were camped at the ancient hot springs outside Xi'an (these springs have been in use by kings in China for 1,500 years at least). The Japanese had invaded, but the leader still wanted to crush the Communists before facing the Japanese. At that critical moment, some of the nationalist troops kidnapped the nationalist leader and forced him to give up chasing the Communists. This event is memorialized in Communist tradition as 'the Xian incident.'
Qxe4
At which point in the war (prior to the Chinese intervention) did the UN violate Chinese territory?
on the other hand, the leadership of china during ww2 ended up fleeing to what is now taiwan after the communist uprising.If you mean the Nationalists/Kuomintang fled to Taiwan then you are accurate. But they weren't the only 'leadership' of China during WW2. The Communists contributed more to the defeat of the Japanese than the Nationalists did. The Communist leadership was also engaged by the Western Powers during this period -- Stillwell in particular spoke highly about the Communists and their resistance towards the Japanese. So it's a bit of a mistake to say the 'leadership' of China during WW2 fled to Taiwan -- part of the leadership did. The part that actually resisted the Japanese stayed behind.
got to love that stuff. in us eyes, anything other then communist leadership was good. it could be just as dictatorial or worse then the communists, as long as they where not communists...Well, if you consider the context of the times and the Soviet actions in Europe/violation of their wartime agreements (Potsdam and Yalta) then it really isn't that hard to understand why we were afraid of Communism. In retrospect our actions (particularly in Latin-America) weren't justifiable but it's too easy to condemn them with the full benefit of historical hindsight.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
But, the government of China isn't interested in the unbiased version of history. I'm sure the same can be said for Western governments on some topics as well to be fair.
It purely is about being able to control perception of their own citizens by controlling the message. "We have always been at was with East Anglia" from 1984 comes to mind.
Chairman Mao himself was the one who laid down the foundation for controlling the message of history. Make them believe your version of events, and you can shape how they'll feel about future events.
The more they can pretend that Tibet has always been under the direct control China, and that the people who lived in Tibet were "liberated" from slavery and serfdom when the Chinese army came in, the more they can change the focus of the issue. Their claim is that the people lived under a cruel and oppressive theocracy, and the Dalai Lama is secretly a villain is designed to support their position.
Sadly, if you get the whole Chinese populace riled up into thinking that everyone is picking on them, they have no strong basis for comparison. Heck, it's not like most of them know about what actually happened in Tianamen Square. They certainly don't really understand the oppression that has happened in Tibet over the last 50 years.
And, don't get me started on the Panchen Lama debacle -- the Chinese government don't feel the need to tell the truth about such things. They have always manipulated the truth to their own ends.
It is often hard to tell when the Chinese nationals are shouting down dissenting points of view if they actually believe that crap, or if they're just doing what they're told. I have a suspicion that a lot of them (even the ones here in Canada who were protesting against Western media bias last week) honestly don't know any different version of events. Therefore, they assume that we really are trying to hurt their national pride. They don't want to be told that their government is and has been lying to them.
Misinformed nationalism can be manipulated in lots of ways by those in power. As I said, I suspect some of it happens in the West as well. The "Us vs Them" mentality that it drives doesn't always help with informed debate.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
A pretty significant number of people both in Europe and the Middle East would thank you if you did
This makes me feel good actually. Don't you think the world would be better off if the USA had business office overseas, rather than troops. I keep asking myself, what country in their right mind really likes having foreign troops on its soil. I mean, I wouldn't really care for it too much if a German division was stationed in Delaware, and I can't imagine the Germans feel any differently. Now with the USA and UK, its a different animal and for some reason I could see the British being in the USA just because my grandfather and my wife's grandfather fought in the Pacific during World War II and to this day I am grateful that the British sent the largest fleet they ever produced (18 aircraft carriers, 4 battleships, and more), to have Seafires flying CAP over American landing forces at Okinawa. And, the British are with us in Iraq...
I keep thinking that the perception of America military hegemony with troops all across the globe is bad for public relations. The Cold War is over... if someone invades Europe, America will be there to defend you, but right now, I honestly think the best thing for the USA is to be a trading empire, not a military one.
I do not want the USA to make the Athenien mistake.
This is my sig.
I am Chinese and I received this poem circulating in the Chinese circle which I think captures the sentiment of ordinary Chinese rather well .
A LETTER FROM AN ORDINARY CHINESE
When we were seen as "Sick Men from East Asia", we were called The Peril.
When we strived to get stronger, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors to the world, you forced them open with drugs and guns.
When we finally embraced Free Trade, you blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, you marched in your troops and robbed us blind.
When we put the broken pieces back together again, "Free tÂbet" you screamed, it was an invasion!
So, we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communists.
Then we learned from Capitalism, you hated us for being Capitalists.
When we had a billion people, you said "The planet is starving."
So we tried to limit our population, you said it was Human Rights Abuse.
When we were poor, you think we are dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your debts.
When we build our industries, you blame us for global warming.
When we sell you goods you can afford, you blame us for dumping inferior products.
When we buy oil, you called that exploitation and assisting genocide.
When you fight for oil, you called that Liberation of Its People.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you wanted Rules of Law for us.
When we uphold our law and order against violence, you called that Violating Human Rights.
When we were silent, you said we have No Free Speech.
When we are NOW silent no more, you say we are merely "Brainwashed".
"Why do you hate us so much?" We asked.
"No" You answered, "We don't hate you."
Truth is we really don't hate you either, but do you understand us?
"Of course we do" You said, "We have BBC, CNN and AFPs."
So we ask you now "What do you really know and want from us?"
And "Why do you find it SO hard to accept us?"
Not that Chiang was exactly an angel, either, but - had the Chinese Civil War played out differently - the country might have been spared a generation having its soul ripped from it as a hyper-Stalinist slave-labour state. But I digress.
While support of the right of Tibetans to national and cultural self-determination is laudable, one must also have some recognition of China's recent history. The Chinese are very sensitive to anything they perceive as an attempt to divide (or even dismember) their country. This perception is quite understandable, given the number of foreign colonies, puppet states, spheres of influence, and disvestitures that China saw in the 19th and 20th centuries. They're not anxious to see Tibet become another Mongolia (which exists as an independent country today only because Josef Stalin wanted to be able to station troops within 500 km of Beijing) or Manchukuo (Japanese puppet régime in North China).
Given the circumstances - rather than demand Tibetan independence - I think that a much more reasonable solution would be encourage China to adopt a 'one country, different systems' policy similar to how it has handled Macau and Hong Kong, where I've personally had the opportunity to see Falun Gong meetings taking place, in the open and unmolested, within sight of the PRC flag flying over Bauhinia Square.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I find it a slap in the face of democracy that China is allowed to host the Olympic games. This is a country that spies on its citizens, taps their phone calls, monitors pretty much all of the e-mail and internet activity of its people. They are responsible for the torture and imprisonment of people who have never been given the chance to prove their innocence. They have kidnapped people in foreign lands and delivered them to torture centers. They have consistently meddled in the affairs of foreign governments, to the point of overthrowing democratically elected governments and putting dictators in their place, merely to protect their own interests. Any time something bad is said of them, the person is labeled a foreign sympathizer and attacked publicly. Their people are blinded by unfounded national pride.
I could go on and on as to why those damn Chinese should never be allowed to host a tea party, let alone the Olympics.
- spied on its citizens
- taps their phone calls
- monitors internet traffic
- torture and imprisonment of people who don't get a trial (yay patriot act)
- kidnapped people in foreign lands and delivered them to torture centers
- meddled in the affairs of foreign governments to the point of overthrowing elected gov's and putting dictators in place (hello iran!)
- Hey, you don't think the patriot act is good? you're effing unamerican! While it isn't to the point of McCarthyism, it is present to an extent
- Their people are blinded by unfounded national pride.
The only difference is the extent at which the atrocities are performed (but where do you draw the line?) and the communist nature of their government compared with our own capitalist oligarchy.Wouldn't that be Maonnaise?
While China's economy is based on exporting crap to us, our federal bonds are issued mostly to the Chinese government.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. We are in a state of economic mutually-assured destruction.
They call in our debt: our economy collapses. They can't sell their shit to us anymore. Their economy collapses.
We stop buying their shit: Their economy collapses and they're forced to call in their debt. Our economy collapses.
While China's economic strength is tied to ours, our strength is just as equally tied to theirs.
At a pro-Tibet rally at Duke University, some 4-500 Chinese counter-protesters showed up from across the area. The two sides were shouting back and forth, waving flags and such like that, when a Chinese freshman at Duke came on the scene and recognized people she knew in both groups. She positioned herself between the two groups and attempted to get people to actually talk about the issues instead of just shouting insults back and forth. Pictures of her were taken, as was video, and they were posted to the web. As news of her actions spread around Chinese message boards, a picture of her with the Chinese word for "traitor" written on her head was posted, as was her Chinese identification number and directions to her parents' home in China. Soon thereafter a picture was taken of a bucket of feces dumped outside her parents' door, and they had told her in emails that they had gone into hiding. She has also received numerous death threats and emails telling her that she should never return to China. The story made the New York Times and Washington Post, but I can't help if wonder if this girl has ruined her chance for a safe return to her home.
It is extremely rare to find a Chinese person who is willing to even listen to the Tibetans' own arguments about their millenia of independent history, not to mention about the horrors perpetrated by the CCP regime after Mao Zedong's 1950 invasion. Google for Grace Wang at Duke Uni. and "burned in oil" to learn how the true Chinese patriots deal with those of their own who merely want to promote debate.
For the Han Chinese race, and not just those still within the Great Firewall of China, this perceived imperial right to rule over neighbouring peoples has become an obsession, which is all the more ironic since the #1 pet hate of the Hans, basically taught since kindergarten, is against the foreign imperialists who "humiliated China" in the 19th and 20th centuries. The Chinese are taught, and this ideology only arose in the late 18th century, that the now billion+ overpopulated Han nation will violently break up if they allow their neighbouring peoples to regain their freedom and independence. (Why is that, btw.?)
Here's a fairly compact Aussie radio programme, with a transcript, about the reasons why the Chinese rulers claim that Tibet and Tibetans are theirs to do what they wish. Basically, the Chinese regime claims that since both Tibet and China were (albeit in very different ways) ruled or under the protection (as Tibet was) by the same foreign power during roughly the same period, after that foreign rule had collapsed the Chinese emperor automatically assumed (perceived) ownership over Tibet as well, despite having no de facto control or rule over the Tibetan nation.
The ultra-nationalistic Chinese you may have seen screaming LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! to pro-Tibetan demonstrators during the CCP's recent global torch parade tend to shout slogans like "TIBET BELONGS TO CHINA!", but if you somehow manage to ask them on what basis, they'll either continue screaming or come up with wildly different historical explanations, ranging from a marriage between a powerful Tibetan king and a Chinese princess (they always forget the Tibetan and Nepalese princesses somehow) in the first millenium to the claims of the foreign Mongol rule (known as the Yuan dynasty in China) in the 13th and the foreign Manchu rule (the Qing dynasty for the Chinese) in the 17th centuries as giving the Mao Zedong's China the absolute right of ownership over Tibet. (waitasec, I thought the communists were totally against any such feudal claiming of lands and peoples??)
If only such mediaval imperial babble was the end of it, but unfortunately the brutal oppression and systematic destruction of Tibetan cultural heritage, identity and language which started with Mao's invasion in the 1950s is still going on strong today. Even sadder is that very few Chinese either know or choose to believe the horrors China has committed in Tibet over the last half century. Some, like the well-known Chinese dissidents Wei Jinsheng and Henry Wu Hongda, who spent years in a Tibetan prison unit alongside Tibetan prisoners of conscience, have told about their experiences, but why would the proud Chinese of today choose democracy and the admission of their own shame when the Communist Party is hauling in foreign money and promising unprecedented global power?
International law be damned.
How much longer do the Tibetan people have to suffer until the Chinese learn that there are higher and more positive values in life than genocidal jingoism?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
None of which contradicts the point of the post, that the whole anti-French thing in the lead up to the Iraq war was because they dared to say that they thought the case for war was stupid.
You might not like the French, but they were still right about Iraq.
While I appreciate the point you're trying to make (and, in fact, some Quebecois are doing exactly that), the situations are somewhat different.
Nobody is accusing China of human rights abuses because they won't grant independence to Tibet. They're accusing them of human rights abuses because of the documented cases of arresting the monks and nuns, torturing or killing them, trying to force them to renounce their religion and the Dalai Lama, displacing locals and moving in large quantities of Chinese citizens to settle Tibet
To the best of the knowledge of anyone who lived in Tibet previous to the Chinese occupation
Believe me, I don't claim to have a viable solution to Tibet, Quebec, Kosovo, or any other such conflict. If I did, I'd be the one with the Nobel Peace Prize and not the Dalai Lama.
These things are complicated, and greater minds than mine haven't solved them yet. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion and see the different points of view as best I can.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Perfect example of what? All I see is an inability to tell the difference. Tibet was a peaceful neighbor before it was invaded. Iraq had invaded two countries in the last 25 years. Iraq had invested heavily in a nuclear weapons program. Iraq donated considerable funds to terrorist groups. Iraq was a ruthless totalitarian state (even China is far better off now than Iraq was then). Tibet was a theocratic backwater, but it was never as disfunction or dangerous as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein. All of the current presidential candidates agree on leaving Iraq (except possibly a token military force, much like Germany). They only disagree on when and whether to set up a schedule ahead of time. Instead China claims that Tibet is as much a part of China as any other part of China.
We all are flawed. But there are things you cannot sanction. The best you can do is to try to do is to try to make the world a better place both at home and elsewhere. It is foolish to ignore a great evil elsewhere merely because your folk did something similar (possibly even worse) not so long ago. It remains a great evil.
No matter how the current Chinese government spins it, the occupation of Tibet remains a great evil. Tibet was an independent country when it was invaded and posed no threat to China. As I see it, it's only crime was that it was weak.
Further I don't see the government of China as legitimate. Who selected China's head of state? Who makes China's laws? Where in those processes do the Chinese people have a say? The US could be considerably more democratic, but they at least pick their head of state and the entire legislature via election. Those people are affirmed by the people with every vote. That is legitimacy. Further, the US citizen is permitted to complain, criticize, and denounce whatever they want to with mild restriction (you cannot legally incite public panic, reveal state secrets or medical information, say untrue things about another person or organization, etc). Despite what some slashdotters say here, that's what you can do in the US. Most stuff that would get you jailed in China, doesn't raise an eyebrow in the US.
As a citizen of the US, I have voted in every presidential election since 1988 (and most of the off year ones) and affirm every one of those elections. I have served in a jury. I have paid my taxes and obeyed (up to minor traffic violations) the laws of my land. By each of these acts, I reinforce the legitimacy of my government. The government and its citizens are occasionally stupid, but the system works pretty well. I've never had to watch my tongue for fear that I might say something unpleasing to some government official or bureaucracy. Sure, my government, my society, and I have done things which I am ashamed of. But I don't see how that should keep us from judging one another. The "flaws" in governments and countries kill people. We need justice at the international level not hollow laws that only the strong can break with impunity.
There are substantial societal and cultural differences. Chinese cultural has long been a strongly hieararchical one, with each level of society showing great deference to the next level up. That's one of the basis of Confucianism, the moral obligation of each individual, whatever their station, to those above them. The Chinese Communists tried to some extent to undermine that, but once Mao had gained power, he essentially took on the mantle of an Emperor, isolating himself from his inferiors, creating a sort of spiritual cult around himself. This was intentional, because it invoked a very ancient cultural motif. If Chiang Kai-shek failed, it's in large part because he was really too Western, a Christian who fashioned himself more in the mold of a Western military dictator, in a sense he was an alien cultural presence.
I'm not saying that people are fundamentally different in China, but rather that you just can't discount millennia of cultural influence. The West has certainly had its aristocracies, but it was never as rigid as it was in China. Western society, even in such stratified cultures as England was for centuries, simply did not have the absolute respect or fear of authority that you find in China.
I can also understand the position of the Chinese government. They saw the absolute chaos that reigned in Russia for a decade, the loss of key parts of the Soviet Empire, the ethno-religious war in Chechnya and the break down of social order. They have taken a much slower approach to reform, and to an extent I can appreciate that, but for them it's still the ancient cultural motif of a remote and isolated ruling class. Only in the last few years have they finally started to deal with the millennia-old problem that came from that system, and that's a corrupt bureaucracy.
Still, that's a Chinese problem, but the invasion and attempted cultural genocide of Tibet is something else entirely.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Or Hanging Louis Riel in the 1880's?
Shooting the people protesting against the conscription in WW-I?
Ditto for WW-II
Or is it in october 1970, when martial law was declared and the political opponnents of Trudeau were jailed without trial???
What would the Chinese people be doing today if they'd been under constant genocidal foreign rule for two or three generations, under daily humiliation, millenia of their invaluable cultural heritage destroyed, their own language, religion, identity and history all but banned and twisted to serve the occupiers, their homeland flooded with ever greater numbers of aliens who consider themselves culturally and racially superior...?
The Han Chinese hate even the partial and relatively brief Japanese invasion in the 1930s and the trade imperialism by the Western colonial powers as absolute evils so why can't they possibly understand why the totally non-Chinese people of Tibet are desperate for their own freedom from colonial brutality under China?
But importantly, what the CCP proparanda machine isn't telling to the Chinese people is that the riots in Lhasa on the 14th of March started only after several days of *peaceful* demonstrations (starting on March 10th, the day of Tibetan Uprising in 1959) during which the Chinese paramilitary (PAP) violently beat and imprisoned a number of Tibetan monks. Monks are revered in Tibet as if they were one's family members, which they often are!
Also, there has been dozens of large demonstrations (in chinese) all over Tibet (more than half of which was annexed into neighbouring Chinese provinces in the 1960s by the Chinese communists!) consisting of tens of thousands of Tibetans. All have been violently suppressed by the PAP, with hundreds of Tibetans dead (nearly 200 confirmed), hundreds more wounded or badly injured without medical care and several thousand Tibetans detained in the not-very-pleasant Chinese jails where abuse and torture in endemic, especially for the Tibetans.
These demonstration against Chinese misrule are still flaring up daily with the same results.
So yes, it is very sad that some young Tibetans' emotions boiled over and some Hans were attacked and some died while hiding inside the Chinese-owned buildings, but please, please try to also look at these issues from the Tibetans' perspective.
Yes, the western media also made some mistakes in labelling a few photos (though do realize that the Nepalese police were indeed beating and jailing Tibetans there at China's behest and for no other reason), but don't you think that the security cam footage from Lhasa, repeated ad nauseaum by the CCTV, was extremely selectively screened for propaganda purposes, and not just by mistake? The Chinese security apparatus has surveillance cameras at absolutely every part of Lhasa.
If the CCP has nothing to hide, why did they evict all foreigners and journalists from all Tibetan areas? Why are they promising massive 100,000 yuan (or well over $1000) reward for anyone who may have filmed the demonstrations and especially the bloody crackdowns that inevitably followed? Why is the CCP confiscating Tibetans' mobile phones, cameras and computers? Why does the CCP refuse even international (UN) observers and medical groups entry into Tibet?
"Free Tibet" is about Tibetans ruling themselves. Nothing more, nothing less.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
You also have to take into consideration Chinas longtime stance from Chairman Mao about disconnection with anything outside China.
Times there are changing, they are growing out of the disassociation, open trade, foreign imports, outsourcing labor there. It's a matter of time until this current generation of Chinese take control, and push their country into the 21st century to join the rest of the modern world.
Granted human rights are just that human, they should apply to all peoples, but life isn't that simple. It doesn't always happen like that, freedom isn't free, it comes with a price, sometimes that price is in human life, sometimes the cost is time. Time to grow, and learn, or just plain time for a new generation to take over and say "let's do it our way".
Until such a time, I don't think we as a planet need to hinder their growth, while government actions still should not be condoned, it would be better to show them how life can be when government doesn't control everything you read, watch, do, or say.
Here's to the inevitable day when there is a truely free and unified China.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
A few points from a Westerner who has lived in China.
1. Must supporting Tibet and the Olympics be mutually exclusive?
2. Talking to my Chinese friends (I have many), almost none have ever actually seen CNN. They have A. read www.anti-cnn.com or B. read or seen about it in Chinese media.
3. China is not the last bastion of independent thought, nor is the USA for that matter. Chinese people almost never seek out secondary sources of information, either because of lack of education (cannot read English, etc), Western media is blocked (i've lived there, don't tell me it is not true, though it is accessible if you know where to look), or lack the desire, or discipline, to seek out other perspectives.
When I lived in Beijing from 2004-2006, I got the general feeling that Chinese were enamored with Tibet and thought they were doing no wrong when they brought development to Tibet. So naturally, Chinese think they are in the right. By human nature, people will believe what they want to believe, and furthermore, people develop strong convictions based on little or no information.
Another thing is that the Chinese have demonized the Dalai Lama, which is somewhat absurd. They cannot in any demonstrable way connect him to the violence. Furthermore, the Dalai Lama is a wily politician who has forged relationships with powerful people in the West, whereas the Chinese have little guanxi outside their own nation, save countries they are pouring money into.
Like I tell my Chinese friends, if I want to know what bad things Taiwan has done this week, I'll read Xin Hua or People's Daily. They are at least as crappy as CNN, though they are a different kind of poison than CNN.
One lesson China should be taking from this, and I have seen no evidence of this so far, is that they really need to do a better job of Public Relations. Frequently my Chinese friends, try to make the argument that Bush would not let Texas separate from the USA (I am from Texas), just as China would not let Tibet separate. To which I reply, Texas was already an independent nation, and if you really want a compelling argument, read about the American Civil War on Wikipedia (har har).
I have a fair number of friends from Taiwan as well, and I have guaged their reaction to be a combination of A. Apathy, because Taiwan has been going through this sort of nonsense for a long time, and they are sick of it B. Not agreeing with violence from either party C. Some empathy for the Tibetans, because the Olympics presents them with a rare opportunity to gain media attention.
So, what to take from all this. I'm not quite certain, because I do not have all the information. I am sympathetic to both sides. Living in China was the happiest part of my life.
My feeling is, if China wants to be a great nation, they need to act like a great nation, not whine on anti-cnn online forums.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
Actually, I have been trying to find documented evidence of the claims you make.
Have monks and nuns been tortured? How many? Have locals been "displaced"? Have they been forced to move from where they were living before? How many? How valuable was the land that they lived on?
The problem I am having is that one side claims that these things are happening, the other side claims that they are not. Some times they agree that the thing happens but disagree on numbers by many orders of magnitude (ex: one side says 100s killed the other side says 100,000s killed when China invaded Tibet).
I am struggling to find clear documented evidence of these great "human rights" abuses. Of course, I am also finding no evidence that such things did not occur.
I cannot get factual answers to the following:
1. How many native Tibetans have advanced degrees?
2. What percentage of the bureaucracy in Tibet has native Tibetans in it?
3. What is the ratio of Tibetans to non Tibetans?
4. What geographic region is precisely the one being argued out about? It seems that there are edge case territories in the boundary that change the counting system when they are included or excluded.
5. Who exactly is participating in the turmoil in Tibet? Are normal everyday Tibetan citizens engaged in this? Again I get two sides claiming different facts.
6. What precise religious rights were taken away from native Tibetans?
7. What percentage of native Tibetans see the Dalai Lama as a great religious figure?
Every fact I have seen claimed seems to have no really strong foundation when you go inspect the original materials. If anybody can provide better sources of information, that would be great.
The problem of course is that China is in the best position to have accurate answers to these questions. But there is not a single example in history (counter examples are welcome) of self-appointed leaders (of reasonably large countries) ever providing non propaganda versions of information to others.
> When we were seen as "Sick Men from East Asia", we were called The Peril.
A growing market will destabilize existing markets until they themselves are saturated. It's not just China, it's India, Brazil, and Russia (again) - all striving to be superpowers themselves. Unfortunately corruption and a lack of transparency hamstring each of you and it's beginning to tear the United States apart as well.
> When we strived to get stronger, we are called The Threat.
Not many US policymakers consider China to be a threat, though China is the closest thing to a threat the US has. Consider it a badge of honor, only two other nations in history ever really were.
> When we closed our doors to the world, you forced them open with drugs and guns.
But forcing Tibet's doors is just fine. I'll freely admit that the US has committed many, many wrongs. Acting like China hasn't does not paint a healthy picture of you.
> When we finally embraced Free Trade, you blame us for taking away your jobs.
This is a lie, since your trade is not 'Free', but listening to your compatriots whine about Indonesians taking your jobs is amusing.
> When we were falling apart, you marched in your troops and robbed us blind.
Ah, yes, I suppose we should have let Japan run free and build the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. How many Nankings do you want?
> When we put the broken pieces back together again, "Free tÂbet" you screamed, it was an invasion!
It was an invasion. No matter how atrociously Tibet's previous leadership treated its people, it's still an invasion. In truth, it would not concern us so much if you did not try to suppress or co-opt belief systems.
> So, we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communists.
Except you didn't, you were Maoists.
> Then we learned from Capitalism, you hated us for being Capitalists.
Except you're not.
> When we had a billion people, you said "The planet is starving."
No, we said 'the planet is starving', and an American man showed you how to feed a billion people.
> So we tried to limit our population, you said it was Human Rights Abuse.
No, when you perform gender-specific abortions, we called -that- a human rights abuse.
> When we were poor, you think we are dogs.
I think it's a pity, when entire rivers are drained dry and water supply is intentionally misregulated.
> When we loan you cash, you blame us for your debts.
Who's blaming -you-? You could always not lend, but that's not an option for you. When two people place themselves into a mutual trap the fault is not the sole fault of one or the other.
> When we build our industries, you blame us for global warming.
And we blame ourselves too. The corruption inherent to your coal industry is not our fault.
> When we sell you goods you can afford, you blame us for dumping inferior products.
Lead and arsenic in products is, by Western standards, inferior. Your point?
> When we buy oil, you called that exploitation and assisting genocide.
When did we say that? It's a bit ironic since:
> When you fight for oil, you called that Liberation of Its People.
Iraqi oil is for you, not us.
> When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you wanted Rules of Law for us.
America has long appreciated peace. Peace is good for business. These past few decades have been an odd spot.
> When we uphold our law and order against violence, you called that Violating Human Rights.
Murdering intellectuals and running over protesters with tanks is generally called that by us, yes. We like to think that you got the Great Leap Forward out of your system. Do you even -know- about that?
> When we were silent, you said we have No Free Speech.
When people are arrested for making dissenting statements, we call that a move against free speech.
> When we are NOW
I am a science fantasy fan
I don't have it in a nice easy to read Power Point slide with fully itemized and cross-referenced figures for you. Nobody does.
The best single thing I've ever seen is a documentary film called Cry of the Snow Lion. A lot of film which was smuggled out of Tibet which the Chinese government would rather never happened.
But, there are likely a lot of news footage and the like from when it all happened.
Some of your questions are strange -- how many Tibetans with advanced degrees for instance. They were largely an agrarian/livestock based culture, so not a whole lot of universities except the monasteries. Some of them just sound like they're designed so they either can't be discredited or to show how much life has been improved by the presence of the Chinese -- there was no bureaucracy for them to participate in before the Chinese came, the monks were the government. The Dalai Lama was the head honcho. Who knows what a couple of generations under Chinese rule have done to peoples opinions and the like.
Most of the entire Tibetan Plateau was devoid of Han Chinese, and the Chinese government has been moving large quantities their people into the region, building railroads, and generally making their presence known. Tibetans are ethnically and linguistically different from Chinese, and they've become a largely marginalized minority.
A google search might not readily turn it up, and I certainly can't give you numbers or statistics. But, I will say that a tremendous amount of this is documented historical fact, and the fact that several 10's of thousands of people walked over the Himalayas (not exactly a walk in the park) to escape wasn't so they could perpetrate a big historical fraud on the rest of us and claim all of this when they could have stayed home and had tea.
Most countries have a population of Tibetan immigrants who have been trickling out for the last five decades to escape the oppression. I won't even try to provide you corroborating evidence here. I've been satisfied with the evidence provided to me, but I'm hardly a store house of it.
People have been protesting and railing about this for a very long time. It's not like these are new or extra-ordinary claims being made.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Sounds like another form of Godwin's law:
As nationalism increases, the probability of being pissed off at the French approaches one.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
Talk about ignorance. The behavior of the British in China was flat-out evil. From Wikipedia:
China banned the trade and importation of opium, on the basis that "Opium is a poison, undermining our good customs and morality. Its use is prohibited by law." They even wrote to Queen Victoria, asking why, since opium was banned in Britain, the British continued to sell it in China. When China seized opium from British traders who violated the law, Britain responded by invading China, seizing territory and forcing China to allow the opium trade. Other countries achieved similar concessions (including at least the French French, Italian, American sand Japanese). At one point, the British army marched to Beijing and burned down the Old Summer Palace, then said to be one of the wonders of the world .
The Chinese are on firm ground when they criticize past Western behavior in China. They are often correct when they describe our current policies and attitudes as hypocritical and self-serving. I detect an undertone of racism, or at least of xenophobia, in much of what is said about China. These are echoed by many Chinese, in China and in the West. We need to get beyond resentment, arrogance, and paranoia on both sides. The Chinese government is brainwashing its citizens. But (as a student of Communication) I can assure you, our media is doing something similar (in response to different pressures). Even though few people pursue alternative sources of information, it is important that in the West we are permitted access to them. For example, here's an in-depth argument by an expert that the Western media have slandered China with respect to Tibet. I haven't assessed it in detail, and I don't think it exonerates the Chinese government, but it is clear there's much more to this than we're hearing.
I live in Vancouver. Chinese comprise a large proportion of the population here. To stereotype a little, they are thoughtful, productive, essential members of my society. The same is true in Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa. For me, Canada would not be Canada without them. It saddens me greatly to witness the hatred directed toward them, just as it saddens me to see so many intelligent people (on both sides) follow the party line on Tibet.