Slashdot Mirror
Chinese Blogs, Netizens React To the Tibet Issue
Bibek Paudel writes "Over the past few weeks Chinese bloggers and people on Internet forums have been reacting to events in Tibet and the protests disrupting the torch relay. The BBC and Global Voices have interesting insights on the recent happenings on the Net. A western commentator says, 'Lots of Chinese people now view the Western media, human rights groups, and Western leaders' criticisms of their country as part of the Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful.' One of the most vocal appeals by the Chinese blogs, forums, and text-messages has been to boycott French goods in response to the protests that accompanied the torch relay in Paris. One response post reads, 'Who is abusing human rights? Who is bringing violence to this world?' There also are two versions of music video of the song Don't Be Too CNN, and its lyric has assumed the status of a cult catch-phrase. Sina.com has a popular page: 'Don't be too CNN, fire to the Western media.' Many analysts believe that the protests over Tibet have only served to strengthen Chinese nationalism rather than evoke sympathy for the Tibetan cause. Sina.com has a petition against the Western media which has reportedly accumulated millions of signatures. There is also Mutant Palm, a blog by an expatriate in China who has been watching and commenting on the fallout from Tibet and torch protests online."
They're calling us hypocrites, and as a citizen of "the West" I can say they're exactly right.
I'd like to say nationalism is the new evil, but, unfortunately it's been around for as long as there has been nations.
More Twoson than Cupertino
Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful.
China is a race? I thought the Chinese were Asian (or Oriental). Japan, Korea, Thailand, none of these Asian countries populated by Orientals have been stopped from being sucessful. When I was in Thailand in the USAF in 1974 it was incredibly primitive, but we had a Thai intern a few years ago who informed me that the roads are now paved, they have electricity and running water now, and it has become thoroughly modern and industrialized.
I'm starting to believe that whenever someone starts screaming "race" (Jesse Jackson et al) the one screaming "racist" is, in fact, the true racist.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Because of China's overt and explicit censorship of the news media, those outside of China (and probably those inside China, too, for that matter) can't possibly be aware of the actual sentiments of the Chinese people.
Basically, what's going to happen is that the pro-Tibet folks will be squelched, either by the Great Firewall of China, imprisonment, or self-censorship, and so only those voices advocating the pro-Tibet stance will be allowed through the filtering and be heard as the "popular" sentiment of the Chinese people.
Just goes to show you how powerful the propaganda machine in China is. To give you an idea of how unsurprising this really is, consider the fact that there are many Chinese people who believe that Tiananmen Square never happened.
As long as they call all non-Chinese media "Western Media" they clearly cannot seriously criticize it in any meaningful way. I mean, Fox News, Slashdot, BBC, FAZ and Corriere della Sera are all part of same group of anti-Chinese conspiracy? With that argument, dear Chinese blogging friends, you are becoming pretty laughable.
839*929
please never use the word "netizens" ever again, in any circumstance.
thank you,
the internet users who aren't douchebags
Chinese culture is vastly different from western cultures. People either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge this. They've always been ruled by a totalitarian regime, communism is just another variation. They aren't apt to enact quick changes unless their is an actual benefit. Some of the people I've talk to, point to Russia as an example of why it's not a good idea to quickly move to a democratic system.
That and people don't like to be told why their country is bad. Just look at America.
On one hand I don't get good coverage of the situation in Tibet because western reporters just do not go there. And on the other hand Chinese reporting is state run and thus essentially a state run propaganda outlet.
Having observed the Dali Lama's tours and speeches for the last few year I find Chinese media assertion that The Dali Lama is running a terrorist network absurd, but their reporting to the contrary might be causing Tibetan supporters of the Dali Lama to become more extreme as the only media source available to them tell them that the Dali Lama is urging armed uprising.
In many ways the Chinese government is seeding the dissent which will give them an excuse for violent oppression of the Tibetan people. I am not sure whether this is evidence of a brilliantly executed evil agenda or standard government incompetence.
do they call french fries fuck tibet fries in china?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
..the voice of the Tibetans is lost. I say, who cares about hypocrites and nationalists, who even cares about Olympic games and sponsors and the Great Market of China; isn't sympathizing with an oppressed minority a good thing - regardless? ESPECIALLY when the odds are stacked so firmly and outstandingly against them? Because being on the receiving end of China is, in the end, being on the receiving end of any country that wants to do business with and in China.
Just think about that, for a moment...
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
You mean like the racist western conspiracy that instigated a war with a formerly allied country mainly because of that countries despicable actions in China? And how did the West get repaid for taking that stance and helping to liberate China? With the Chinese intervention against the United Nations (not just the United States) during the Korean War. Nice going -- we help to stop Japanese aggression and get repaid by China flipping off the entire World to support an aggressive regime that tried to conquer it's Southern neighbor.
If they want to make this into a nationalist cause celebre then somebody should remind them that there's a lot more history behind Chinese relations with the West then just the unequal treaties and not all of that history is the West "oppressing" China.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I think this is a great example of what the 21st century has in store.
I have a lot of Chinese (national) friends, even one who is a member of the CCP. They definitely take the Tibet protests personally. The CCP has been very clever at manipulating national sentiment on this issue, and it is very interesting to me because it is a clash between the western narrative of China as a brutal oppressor and the eastern narrative of the west as a patronizing colonial force.
Talking to Chinese of all stripes, I find they don't understand the western image of China is a man standing down a tank. That isn't the life they came from. On the other hand, most can't grapple with the Maoist atrocities. They're taught all about the opium wars and colonialism, though. So when east meets west, both sides see the world in very different light.
Personally, while I do worry about Tibetan culture being diluted and people being oppressed, I'm not sure that (a) I have the moral standing to tell others not to opppress people (It's not like we're going to offer Hawaii autonomy now, is it?) (b) it's generally good for every ethnic group to live in its own autonomous enclave.
I also think that worrying about cultural dilution is something rich nations can ponder, along with rights for dogs, and all the other quandaries of affluence.
I do wish the Chinese would confront the human rights abuses in their past more fully. I wish they had better protections for workers and better labor laws. Communist regimes seem to always have this problem. If the government is made of labor unions ("soviets"), but the union is no longer responsive to the workers needs, who can they turn to?
It's not an idle question. Look at the coal mine riots in the USSR during the 30's. The workers "unionized" and complained about unsafe conditions and long hours. The government, nominally concerned primarily with the average worker, sent in the troops who busted the riot in a way that would make Pinkertons blush.
I'm not saying that's how life in China is, but I am saying it's a structural flaw of a one-party government. But if it looks like I'm casting stones from my glass house, I'd say that my own government was set up to have competition between branches that would protect my freedoms. However, the formation of political parties has lead to collusion between branches, undoing much of the good envisioned by the writers of our constitution. It'd be nice to have a structural change here to deal with that.
Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
They're calling us hypocrites, and as a citizen of "the West" I can say they're exactly right.
No they aren't. There's no censorship in the west to the extent there is China. There's no individual right to keep and bear arms in China like there is in the west. The differences are staggering and people that proclaim dictatorship whenever politics don't go their way do more to undermine the very definition of what a dictatorship really is.
This is my sig.
"Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful."
It struck me as I read that that I've heard this line before in another sphere.
It's exactly what (some, mainly republican) Americans say about the rest of the world's concerns about pollution and global warming.
It's a conspiracy to stop the US being succesful, driven by jealousy of what they are achieving.
In both cases it's ludicrous.
... had absolutely nothing to do with starting this "backlash". Why do we even care what the average Chinese citizen thinks about this issue? They have no power, and would be arrested if they tried anything like the Paris protests.
The whole point of the protests is to embarrass the oligarchs, not to get the Chinese people to pay attention.
========
CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
Welcome to the age of mob rule. We created the tech tools for the world to raise it's voice and assert its values. I think we generally assumed that this voice would express our values better, more clearly. I do not think this is going to be the case. Maybe oppressive authoritarian regimes are actually a good thing. They seem to be pretty popular!
or else they might start shipping us lead tainted toys, poison pet food and contaminated medicines... oh, wait.
Xenophobes being xenophobic - why is this news?
Power does not corrupt - power attracts the corrupt.
europe sent crusaders to the middle east
both of these things are wrong
however, you wish to use events of 200 years ago and 1000 years ago to excuse and condone the same kind of colonization by han imperialists in tibet today, or the actions of violent muslim fundamentalists today
this is not morality or a human conscience
the only morally and intellectually defensible position is to condemn:
1. the slaughter of native americans
2. european crusaders
3. han imperialism
4. violent muslim fundamentalism
condemn all of it. that's morality and intellectual honesty
to excuse 3 and 4 because of 1 and 2 is i don't know exactly what, but its not morality or intellectual honesty. its some sort of weird kind of attempt to avoid a human conscience
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
different leaders at different times...
china helping out north korea was one communist nation helping out another, after UN forced had chased north korean into chinese territory iirc...
on the other hand, the leadership of china during ww2 ended up fleeing to what is now taiwan after the communist uprising.
and btw, china do not recognice taiwan as a nation. they insist that its chinese territory. but they do not invade as that would risk all out war with usa, who helped set up taiwan...
got to love that stuff. in us eyes, anything other then communist leadership was good. it could be just as dictatorial or worse then the communists, as long as they where not communists...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Yup - you're absolutely right. It's nothing but nationalism run amok. I find it particularly amusing that the Chinese are pissed off at the French as well. This has the exact echoes of the nationalistic frenzy many Americans were in when the French decided to not believe the WMD bullshit.
To be honest, I'm far more concerned about that than Al-Qaeda. Remember what happened the last time nationalism was this rampant and blind? 2 countries were invaded - 1 without any reason. Furthermore, many of the internal violence across the world can be traced to excessive attachment to a particular tribe/ethnicity/nation. The exception to that are the various communist movements and drug cartels.
Here's something else I've learned from the comments left by Chinese nationalists on various blogs and news stories: they have less in common with me than I have in common with Iraqis. Their concept of free speech is completely different. Their concept of human rights is completely different. Their concept of historic relativism is completely different. Here's what I see:
Chinese nationalists value territorial integrity, international face, unity and harmony above all. I value individual self-determination and free speech above all - in other words, chaos over harmony.
You can easily see this in their rage against news outlets, where a bad story about a Chinese government action is taken as an insult from all of western civilization against all of China.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Yes, but who's going to do that? China, as a country, seems to have a tendency to enjoy sticking its fingers in its ears and humming when someone brings up a point that doesn't fit neatly into its worldview. Like a child being told there's no Santa Claus or a Neo-Nazi being confronted with evidence of the holocaust.
I thought the same thing, but in regard to another issue: civil rights.
Basically, the issue of "sympathy toward oppressed Tibetans vs. Chinese pride" sounds extremely similar to the era of the civil rights movement in the US, where the issue was "sympathy toward oppressed black people vs. Southern pride". In both cases the oppressors get all offended when you dare to question their practices.
And for folks who aren't familiar with how this story ends, well, there are still idiots in the South who cling to the idea that agitators and Yankees were meddling with their Utopia, and everything would have been fine if the White Citizens Councils and the KKK had taken care of everything. If similar resentment becomes ingrained in the Chinese people (or if their government manufactures enough of it), this has serious implications for human rights in that country.
Actually, the Japanese actually helped the Communists in China. At a time when the communists were about to be crushed by the national government, the Japanese invaded and distracted the national army long enough to let the communists get strong.
It's a pretty dramatic story, actually. The nationals had chased the communists all the way from southern China up to the north, spent months doing so in what is known as Mao's Long March, and were finally about to crush the rebellion. The nationals were camped at the ancient hot springs outside Xi'an (these springs have been in use by kings in China for 1,500 years at least). The Japanese had invaded, but the leader still wanted to crush the Communists before facing the Japanese. At that critical moment, some of the nationalist troops kidnapped the nationalist leader and forced him to give up chasing the Communists. This event is memorialized in Communist tradition as 'the Xian incident.'
Qxe4
At which point in the war (prior to the Chinese intervention) did the UN violate Chinese territory?
on the other hand, the leadership of china during ww2 ended up fleeing to what is now taiwan after the communist uprising.If you mean the Nationalists/Kuomintang fled to Taiwan then you are accurate. But they weren't the only 'leadership' of China during WW2. The Communists contributed more to the defeat of the Japanese than the Nationalists did. The Communist leadership was also engaged by the Western Powers during this period -- Stillwell in particular spoke highly about the Communists and their resistance towards the Japanese. So it's a bit of a mistake to say the 'leadership' of China during WW2 fled to Taiwan -- part of the leadership did. The part that actually resisted the Japanese stayed behind.
got to love that stuff. in us eyes, anything other then communist leadership was good. it could be just as dictatorial or worse then the communists, as long as they where not communists...Well, if you consider the context of the times and the Soviet actions in Europe/violation of their wartime agreements (Potsdam and Yalta) then it really isn't that hard to understand why we were afraid of Communism. In retrospect our actions (particularly in Latin-America) weren't justifiable but it's too easy to condemn them with the full benefit of historical hindsight.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
But, the government of China isn't interested in the unbiased version of history. I'm sure the same can be said for Western governments on some topics as well to be fair.
It purely is about being able to control perception of their own citizens by controlling the message. "We have always been at was with East Anglia" from 1984 comes to mind.
Chairman Mao himself was the one who laid down the foundation for controlling the message of history. Make them believe your version of events, and you can shape how they'll feel about future events.
The more they can pretend that Tibet has always been under the direct control China, and that the people who lived in Tibet were "liberated" from slavery and serfdom when the Chinese army came in, the more they can change the focus of the issue. Their claim is that the people lived under a cruel and oppressive theocracy, and the Dalai Lama is secretly a villain is designed to support their position.
Sadly, if you get the whole Chinese populace riled up into thinking that everyone is picking on them, they have no strong basis for comparison. Heck, it's not like most of them know about what actually happened in Tianamen Square. They certainly don't really understand the oppression that has happened in Tibet over the last 50 years.
And, don't get me started on the Panchen Lama debacle -- the Chinese government don't feel the need to tell the truth about such things. They have always manipulated the truth to their own ends.
It is often hard to tell when the Chinese nationals are shouting down dissenting points of view if they actually believe that crap, or if they're just doing what they're told. I have a suspicion that a lot of them (even the ones here in Canada who were protesting against Western media bias last week) honestly don't know any different version of events. Therefore, they assume that we really are trying to hurt their national pride. They don't want to be told that their government is and has been lying to them.
Misinformed nationalism can be manipulated in lots of ways by those in power. As I said, I suspect some of it happens in the West as well. The "Us vs Them" mentality that it drives doesn't always help with informed debate.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
A pretty significant number of people both in Europe and the Middle East would thank you if you did
This makes me feel good actually. Don't you think the world would be better off if the USA had business office overseas, rather than troops. I keep asking myself, what country in their right mind really likes having foreign troops on its soil. I mean, I wouldn't really care for it too much if a German division was stationed in Delaware, and I can't imagine the Germans feel any differently. Now with the USA and UK, its a different animal and for some reason I could see the British being in the USA just because my grandfather and my wife's grandfather fought in the Pacific during World War II and to this day I am grateful that the British sent the largest fleet they ever produced (18 aircraft carriers, 4 battleships, and more), to have Seafires flying CAP over American landing forces at Okinawa. And, the British are with us in Iraq...
I keep thinking that the perception of America military hegemony with troops all across the globe is bad for public relations. The Cold War is over... if someone invades Europe, America will be there to defend you, but right now, I honestly think the best thing for the USA is to be a trading empire, not a military one.
I do not want the USA to make the Athenien mistake.
This is my sig.
Not that Chiang was exactly an angel, either, but - had the Chinese Civil War played out differently - the country might have been spared a generation having its soul ripped from it as a hyper-Stalinist slave-labour state. But I digress.
While support of the right of Tibetans to national and cultural self-determination is laudable, one must also have some recognition of China's recent history. The Chinese are very sensitive to anything they perceive as an attempt to divide (or even dismember) their country. This perception is quite understandable, given the number of foreign colonies, puppet states, spheres of influence, and disvestitures that China saw in the 19th and 20th centuries. They're not anxious to see Tibet become another Mongolia (which exists as an independent country today only because Josef Stalin wanted to be able to station troops within 500 km of Beijing) or Manchukuo (Japanese puppet régime in North China).
Given the circumstances - rather than demand Tibetan independence - I think that a much more reasonable solution would be encourage China to adopt a 'one country, different systems' policy similar to how it has handled Macau and Hong Kong, where I've personally had the opportunity to see Falun Gong meetings taking place, in the open and unmolested, within sight of the PRC flag flying over Bauhinia Square.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I find it a slap in the face of democracy that China is allowed to host the Olympic games. This is a country that spies on its citizens, taps their phone calls, monitors pretty much all of the e-mail and internet activity of its people. They are responsible for the torture and imprisonment of people who have never been given the chance to prove their innocence. They have kidnapped people in foreign lands and delivered them to torture centers. They have consistently meddled in the affairs of foreign governments, to the point of overthrowing democratically elected governments and putting dictators in their place, merely to protect their own interests. Any time something bad is said of them, the person is labeled a foreign sympathizer and attacked publicly. Their people are blinded by unfounded national pride.
I could go on and on as to why those damn Chinese should never be allowed to host a tea party, let alone the Olympics.
Not only that, but Taiwan is probably one of the best-defended chunks of land on the planet. There's also some pretty strong rumors that Taiwan either has or in short order could produce nuclear weapons, so any attack on it would likely lead to reciprocal attacks against major Chinese centers.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And then there's all those ethnic Han Chinese that were murdered/had their houses burned/had their businesses raised in the latest riots in Lhasa.. To a lot of the ethnic Han living in Tibet, the "free tibet" initiative is more about kicking all the Han out, instead of true liberation. There are political motivations to be sure, but there are strong racist elements within the unrest.
- spied on its citizens
- taps their phone calls
- monitors internet traffic
- torture and imprisonment of people who don't get a trial (yay patriot act)
- kidnapped people in foreign lands and delivered them to torture centers
- meddled in the affairs of foreign governments to the point of overthrowing elected gov's and putting dictators in place (hello iran!)
- Hey, you don't think the patriot act is good? you're effing unamerican! While it isn't to the point of McCarthyism, it is present to an extent
- Their people are blinded by unfounded national pride.
The only difference is the extent at which the atrocities are performed (but where do you draw the line?) and the communist nature of their government compared with our own capitalist oligarchy.Wouldn't that be Maonnaise?
Did I blame them on anybody else?
and i do believe the nationalists where the recognized government of china when they fled...And your point is....?
We were engaged with and provided assistance to the Communists during WW2 even if they weren't the recognized Government. In fact, Stillwell spoke in favor of cutting off supplies to the Nationalists and working with the Communists specifically because the Communists were actually fighting the Japanese -- the Nationalists were hording everything we sent them to use against the Communists after the war was over and were only too happy to let the Communists absorb the blunt of the fighting with Japan.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
At a pro-Tibet rally at Duke University, some 4-500 Chinese counter-protesters showed up from across the area. The two sides were shouting back and forth, waving flags and such like that, when a Chinese freshman at Duke came on the scene and recognized people she knew in both groups. She positioned herself between the two groups and attempted to get people to actually talk about the issues instead of just shouting insults back and forth. Pictures of her were taken, as was video, and they were posted to the web. As news of her actions spread around Chinese message boards, a picture of her with the Chinese word for "traitor" written on her head was posted, as was her Chinese identification number and directions to her parents' home in China. Soon thereafter a picture was taken of a bucket of feces dumped outside her parents' door, and they had told her in emails that they had gone into hiding. She has also received numerous death threats and emails telling her that she should never return to China. The story made the New York Times and Washington Post, but I can't help if wonder if this girl has ruined her chance for a safe return to her home.
It is extremely rare to find a Chinese person who is willing to even listen to the Tibetans' own arguments about their millenia of independent history, not to mention about the horrors perpetrated by the CCP regime after Mao Zedong's 1950 invasion. Google for Grace Wang at Duke Uni. and "burned in oil" to learn how the true Chinese patriots deal with those of their own who merely want to promote debate.
For the Han Chinese race, and not just those still within the Great Firewall of China, this perceived imperial right to rule over neighbouring peoples has become an obsession, which is all the more ironic since the #1 pet hate of the Hans, basically taught since kindergarten, is against the foreign imperialists who "humiliated China" in the 19th and 20th centuries. The Chinese are taught, and this ideology only arose in the late 18th century, that the now billion+ overpopulated Han nation will violently break up if they allow their neighbouring peoples to regain their freedom and independence. (Why is that, btw.?)
Here's a fairly compact Aussie radio programme, with a transcript, about the reasons why the Chinese rulers claim that Tibet and Tibetans are theirs to do what they wish. Basically, the Chinese regime claims that since both Tibet and China were (albeit in very different ways) ruled or under the protection (as Tibet was) by the same foreign power during roughly the same period, after that foreign rule had collapsed the Chinese emperor automatically assumed (perceived) ownership over Tibet as well, despite having no de facto control or rule over the Tibetan nation.
The ultra-nationalistic Chinese you may have seen screaming LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! to pro-Tibetan demonstrators during the CCP's recent global torch parade tend to shout slogans like "TIBET BELONGS TO CHINA!", but if you somehow manage to ask them on what basis, they'll either continue screaming or come up with wildly different historical explanations, ranging from a marriage between a powerful Tibetan king and a Chinese princess (they always forget the Tibetan and Nepalese princesses somehow) in the first millenium to the claims of the foreign Mongol rule (known as the Yuan dynasty in China) in the 13th and the foreign Manchu rule (the Qing dynasty for the Chinese) in the 17th centuries as giving the Mao Zedong's China the absolute right of ownership over Tibet. (waitasec, I thought the communists were totally against any such feudal claiming of lands and peoples??)
If only such mediaval imperial babble was the end of it, but unfortunately the brutal oppression and systematic destruction of Tibetan cultural heritage, identity and language which started with Mao's invasion in the 1950s is still going on strong today. Even sadder is that very few Chinese either know or choose to believe the horrors China has committed in Tibet over the last half century. Some, like the well-known Chinese dissidents Wei Jinsheng and Henry Wu Hongda, who spent years in a Tibetan prison unit alongside Tibetan prisoners of conscience, have told about their experiences, but why would the proud Chinese of today choose democracy and the admission of their own shame when the Communist Party is hauling in foreign money and promising unprecedented global power?
International law be damned.
How much longer do the Tibetan people have to suffer until the Chinese learn that there are higher and more positive values in life than genocidal jingoism?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Yes, all that is true. And, it saddens me to see it happen.
However, I should imagine that after 50 years of occupation, loss of freedoms, having all of those ethnic Han trucked in to settle it (there were NO Han Chinese in Tibet before 1959 -- they were brought in to bolster the claims of China) and all of that stuff could eventually build some resentment. After so many years of the Tibetans being trampled upon, some of them have reached their breaking point, and are trampling back.
Sadly, most such conflicts simmer and get progressively worse over decades. Israel and Palestine. Northern Ireland. The Bloods and the Crips. Kosovo. Pick any two groups with a long-simmering dispute. I'm sure it goes back through all of history.
One group of humans craps on another. Over time, someone gets tired of being crapped on and responds. More retaliation ensues, shit goes downhill.
Sadly, the more I try to look at all this crap with a long lens and see as many sides of the story as possible, the more disheartened I get, because there's not a single right and wrong, and there's never a simple way out of it.
I don't condone the violence done by any of them, but I can empathize with how they may have gotten there. Unfortunately, non-violence is hard to maintain in the face of decades of violence.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
None of which contradicts the point of the post, that the whole anti-French thing in the lead up to the Iraq war was because they dared to say that they thought the case for war was stupid.
You might not like the French, but they were still right about Iraq.
But just about all the US aid to China went to KMT, not the communist. Communists was more tolerated than helped by the US at the time. And after the war, guess which side the US backed when KMT and communist went after each other? Hence the fallout between the US and China.
Btw, I think Stillwell (or was it his predecessor), while sent to help KMT, was reported to be disgusted with KMT and suggested to help the communists instead, to no avail.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
While I appreciate the point you're trying to make (and, in fact, some Quebecois are doing exactly that), the situations are somewhat different.
Nobody is accusing China of human rights abuses because they won't grant independence to Tibet. They're accusing them of human rights abuses because of the documented cases of arresting the monks and nuns, torturing or killing them, trying to force them to renounce their religion and the Dalai Lama, displacing locals and moving in large quantities of Chinese citizens to settle Tibet
To the best of the knowledge of anyone who lived in Tibet previous to the Chinese occupation
Believe me, I don't claim to have a viable solution to Tibet, Quebec, Kosovo, or any other such conflict. If I did, I'd be the one with the Nobel Peace Prize and not the Dalai Lama.
These things are complicated, and greater minds than mine haven't solved them yet. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion and see the different points of view as best I can.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The claim is ridiculous anyways. You might as well state that the Ukraine should be reabsorbed into Russia, or that the Vatican has some claim to Central Italy. Maybe Austria should demand Hungary back. Austria controlled Hungary a helluva lot more recently than any Chinese emperor ever controlled Tibet.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
How many of us are talking high and mighty about the EVIL Chinese while wearing chinese shoes, sitting at a chinese made desk, typing on a chinese made keyboard.
If you want to protest, stop messing with the torch and stop buying their CRAP!
Buy mexican or indian or german, just get off of chinese stuff.
There are substantial societal and cultural differences. Chinese cultural has long been a strongly hieararchical one, with each level of society showing great deference to the next level up. That's one of the basis of Confucianism, the moral obligation of each individual, whatever their station, to those above them. The Chinese Communists tried to some extent to undermine that, but once Mao had gained power, he essentially took on the mantle of an Emperor, isolating himself from his inferiors, creating a sort of spiritual cult around himself. This was intentional, because it invoked a very ancient cultural motif. If Chiang Kai-shek failed, it's in large part because he was really too Western, a Christian who fashioned himself more in the mold of a Western military dictator, in a sense he was an alien cultural presence.
I'm not saying that people are fundamentally different in China, but rather that you just can't discount millennia of cultural influence. The West has certainly had its aristocracies, but it was never as rigid as it was in China. Western society, even in such stratified cultures as England was for centuries, simply did not have the absolute respect or fear of authority that you find in China.
I can also understand the position of the Chinese government. They saw the absolute chaos that reigned in Russia for a decade, the loss of key parts of the Soviet Empire, the ethno-religious war in Chechnya and the break down of social order. They have taken a much slower approach to reform, and to an extent I can appreciate that, but for them it's still the ancient cultural motif of a remote and isolated ruling class. Only in the last few years have they finally started to deal with the millennia-old problem that came from that system, and that's a corrupt bureaucracy.
Still, that's a Chinese problem, but the invasion and attempted cultural genocide of Tibet is something else entirely.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Or Hanging Louis Riel in the 1880's?
Shooting the people protesting against the conscription in WW-I?
Ditto for WW-II
Or is it in october 1970, when martial law was declared and the political opponnents of Trudeau were jailed without trial???
I am from a small town, South India. It was like any other small town, full of one kind of people. Also, small town in India means a few hundred thousand people. Any outsider is immediately recognized, stared at, passed comments on etc. The economy was lackluster and most people didnt know places beyond a 100 km of the town.
One fine day, I was walking home from school. I was about 12 yrs old. We didnt have to worry about pervs in this town, so this was absolutely safe.
On a sidewalk (or foot path as we called it), there were these curious-looking people - a complete family or two - sitting down and hawking what looked like very attractive carpets and rugs.
They wore strange clothes and it was a sight I have not seen before. It just stayed in my memory.
They kind of looked like the people from the far east that I have seen on TV, but this is the first time I am seeing anyone with Mongoloid features.
I saw them day after day, at the same spot, their lives spread out on the side walk. They cooked there, their kids played around there and the infants were in cloth cribs that hung from tree branches. I presumed they slept at the same spot as well.
The small town being the small town it is, the sidewalks had open drains on the far side and it was generally not a nice place to be hanging out all the time. It was sordid to live there. There are homeless in India who do this, but to see very strange people come to my non-descript small town and live there on a sidewalk was something else. It stayed with me.
Years later, I realized that these people were Tibetan refugees, who left their homes because of Chinese aggression. India provided them a safe haven and they have joined the vast under-class of India, doing things they probably never did in Tibet. I felt truly sorry for them. Being poor is one thing.
Being poor in a strange place is something else. These people didnt have any rights and honestly, it doesnt look like there is anyone who would care for them. I hope they find peace someday.
And Down With China.
What would the Chinese people be doing today if they'd been under constant genocidal foreign rule for two or three generations, under daily humiliation, millenia of their invaluable cultural heritage destroyed, their own language, religion, identity and history all but banned and twisted to serve the occupiers, their homeland flooded with ever greater numbers of aliens who consider themselves culturally and racially superior...?
The Han Chinese hate even the partial and relatively brief Japanese invasion in the 1930s and the trade imperialism by the Western colonial powers as absolute evils so why can't they possibly understand why the totally non-Chinese people of Tibet are desperate for their own freedom from colonial brutality under China?
But importantly, what the CCP proparanda machine isn't telling to the Chinese people is that the riots in Lhasa on the 14th of March started only after several days of *peaceful* demonstrations (starting on March 10th, the day of Tibetan Uprising in 1959) during which the Chinese paramilitary (PAP) violently beat and imprisoned a number of Tibetan monks. Monks are revered in Tibet as if they were one's family members, which they often are!
Also, there has been dozens of large demonstrations (in chinese) all over Tibet (more than half of which was annexed into neighbouring Chinese provinces in the 1960s by the Chinese communists!) consisting of tens of thousands of Tibetans. All have been violently suppressed by the PAP, with hundreds of Tibetans dead (nearly 200 confirmed), hundreds more wounded or badly injured without medical care and several thousand Tibetans detained in the not-very-pleasant Chinese jails where abuse and torture in endemic, especially for the Tibetans.
These demonstration against Chinese misrule are still flaring up daily with the same results.
So yes, it is very sad that some young Tibetans' emotions boiled over and some Hans were attacked and some died while hiding inside the Chinese-owned buildings, but please, please try to also look at these issues from the Tibetans' perspective.
Yes, the western media also made some mistakes in labelling a few photos (though do realize that the Nepalese police were indeed beating and jailing Tibetans there at China's behest and for no other reason), but don't you think that the security cam footage from Lhasa, repeated ad nauseaum by the CCTV, was extremely selectively screened for propaganda purposes, and not just by mistake? The Chinese security apparatus has surveillance cameras at absolutely every part of Lhasa.
If the CCP has nothing to hide, why did they evict all foreigners and journalists from all Tibetan areas? Why are they promising massive 100,000 yuan (or well over $1000) reward for anyone who may have filmed the demonstrations and especially the bloody crackdowns that inevitably followed? Why is the CCP confiscating Tibetans' mobile phones, cameras and computers? Why does the CCP refuse even international (UN) observers and medical groups entry into Tibet?
"Free Tibet" is about Tibetans ruling themselves. Nothing more, nothing less.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
I guess what they really want is everyone to live a year without China. I have to wonder how many consumer items that all those protesters use every day come from China. It's hard for their government to take our protests seriously when we are handing them our money as fast as we can.
We are all just people.
Those "innocent" people are invaders, colonists sent to undermine Tibetan culture. The same thing happened to Russians in the Baltic states, and for the same reasons. The chinese aren't welcome there, they should just leave. If they came as friends, it would be one thing, but they are invaders, the smiling faces empowered by the Butchers of Beijing.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
You also have to take into consideration Chinas longtime stance from Chairman Mao about disconnection with anything outside China.
Times there are changing, they are growing out of the disassociation, open trade, foreign imports, outsourcing labor there. It's a matter of time until this current generation of Chinese take control, and push their country into the 21st century to join the rest of the modern world.
Granted human rights are just that human, they should apply to all peoples, but life isn't that simple. It doesn't always happen like that, freedom isn't free, it comes with a price, sometimes that price is in human life, sometimes the cost is time. Time to grow, and learn, or just plain time for a new generation to take over and say "let's do it our way".
Until such a time, I don't think we as a planet need to hinder their growth, while government actions still should not be condoned, it would be better to show them how life can be when government doesn't control everything you read, watch, do, or say.
Here's to the inevitable day when there is a truely free and unified China.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Too bad it conflicts with the US way of policing the world.
,let alone host, the Olympics should be a minor fraction of their exclusion if they don't want to bring their governance up to modern standards.
It also conflicts with one of the supposed strengths of capitalism, that consumers can be informed of the ethics of the companies they do business with. Now Americans are shitty shitty capitalists, we protest the sweatshops but we still buy the shoes. But the basic idea still stands, if China wants to isolate it's ethics then they need to be isolated in every other way as well, economically, scientifically, and politically. If they don't want to meet human rights standards, then they don't need to have a seat on the UN security council or the right to trade with the other nations of the UN. Not being allowed to participate
We are all just people.
I'll be the last one to defend Japan, but why should Japan refrain from "conquering her way" into power when all the others had been and were still doing it?
The Europeans colonized huge chunks of Africa and Asia and leverage them for economic military gains. The US, while not on the same scale, took on territories and interest in Latin America and Pacific/Asia. Japan, trying to keep up with the West, saw they needed to do the same, around its neighborhood, coming into conflict with the European and American interest in the region. The way things were developing, the US-Japan blowup was going to happen regardless of Nanking massacre/China, and your complaint about lack of Chinese gratitude on this point seems rather overblown to me.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
A few points from a Westerner who has lived in China.
1. Must supporting Tibet and the Olympics be mutually exclusive?
2. Talking to my Chinese friends (I have many), almost none have ever actually seen CNN. They have A. read www.anti-cnn.com or B. read or seen about it in Chinese media.
3. China is not the last bastion of independent thought, nor is the USA for that matter. Chinese people almost never seek out secondary sources of information, either because of lack of education (cannot read English, etc), Western media is blocked (i've lived there, don't tell me it is not true, though it is accessible if you know where to look), or lack the desire, or discipline, to seek out other perspectives.
When I lived in Beijing from 2004-2006, I got the general feeling that Chinese were enamored with Tibet and thought they were doing no wrong when they brought development to Tibet. So naturally, Chinese think they are in the right. By human nature, people will believe what they want to believe, and furthermore, people develop strong convictions based on little or no information.
Another thing is that the Chinese have demonized the Dalai Lama, which is somewhat absurd. They cannot in any demonstrable way connect him to the violence. Furthermore, the Dalai Lama is a wily politician who has forged relationships with powerful people in the West, whereas the Chinese have little guanxi outside their own nation, save countries they are pouring money into.
Like I tell my Chinese friends, if I want to know what bad things Taiwan has done this week, I'll read Xin Hua or People's Daily. They are at least as crappy as CNN, though they are a different kind of poison than CNN.
One lesson China should be taking from this, and I have seen no evidence of this so far, is that they really need to do a better job of Public Relations. Frequently my Chinese friends, try to make the argument that Bush would not let Texas separate from the USA (I am from Texas), just as China would not let Tibet separate. To which I reply, Texas was already an independent nation, and if you really want a compelling argument, read about the American Civil War on Wikipedia (har har).
I have a fair number of friends from Taiwan as well, and I have guaged their reaction to be a combination of A. Apathy, because Taiwan has been going through this sort of nonsense for a long time, and they are sick of it B. Not agreeing with violence from either party C. Some empathy for the Tibetans, because the Olympics presents them with a rare opportunity to gain media attention.
So, what to take from all this. I'm not quite certain, because I do not have all the information. I am sympathetic to both sides. Living in China was the happiest part of my life.
My feeling is, if China wants to be a great nation, they need to act like a great nation, not whine on anti-cnn online forums.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
Actually, I have been trying to find documented evidence of the claims you make.
Have monks and nuns been tortured? How many? Have locals been "displaced"? Have they been forced to move from where they were living before? How many? How valuable was the land that they lived on?
The problem I am having is that one side claims that these things are happening, the other side claims that they are not. Some times they agree that the thing happens but disagree on numbers by many orders of magnitude (ex: one side says 100s killed the other side says 100,000s killed when China invaded Tibet).
I am struggling to find clear documented evidence of these great "human rights" abuses. Of course, I am also finding no evidence that such things did not occur.
I cannot get factual answers to the following:
1. How many native Tibetans have advanced degrees?
2. What percentage of the bureaucracy in Tibet has native Tibetans in it?
3. What is the ratio of Tibetans to non Tibetans?
4. What geographic region is precisely the one being argued out about? It seems that there are edge case territories in the boundary that change the counting system when they are included or excluded.
5. Who exactly is participating in the turmoil in Tibet? Are normal everyday Tibetan citizens engaged in this? Again I get two sides claiming different facts.
6. What precise religious rights were taken away from native Tibetans?
7. What percentage of native Tibetans see the Dalai Lama as a great religious figure?
Every fact I have seen claimed seems to have no really strong foundation when you go inspect the original materials. If anybody can provide better sources of information, that would be great.
The problem of course is that China is in the best position to have accurate answers to these questions. But there is not a single example in history (counter examples are welcome) of self-appointed leaders (of reasonably large countries) ever providing non propaganda versions of information to others.
Westerners just can't grapple with the reality that the Chinese government is still generally popular and it's people, though overly addicted to nationalism and cultural pride, are NOT ignorant slaves that your corporate media and your condescending feel-good activists like you to believe
Westerners just can't grapple with the reality that the Chinese government would participate in such embarrassing lies and historical revisionism. At least in the west we are cynical about what the establishment feeds us.
Why is that important?
When Ghandi was campaigning for independence, he and the Indian people were subject to many brutal and unfair things by the British government. So Ghandi's side of the story was heard, and eventually a peaceful rationale solution came about.
When the people in Tibet complain *peacefully*, they are confronted with the gun, and then the Chinese government attempts to resolve the situation by managing perception. It's no wonder that the peaceful demonstrations turned violet.
When you tell a lie, you must keep lying to preserve that lie. I think the chinese government has told so many lies that they don't know which direction is up. It's too bad to see so many people suffering because of a lack of straight-forward honesty.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
There is no difference between patriotism and nationalism. As George Bernard Shaw said, "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
And at least this American believes that patriotism is a huge problem. Unbridled patriotism; the thought that our country is the best and freest and can do no wrong is what got us into the Iraq war. As my sig says, patriotism is no different than racism, and should be fought just as vigorously.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I don't have it in a nice easy to read Power Point slide with fully itemized and cross-referenced figures for you. Nobody does.
The best single thing I've ever seen is a documentary film called Cry of the Snow Lion. A lot of film which was smuggled out of Tibet which the Chinese government would rather never happened.
But, there are likely a lot of news footage and the like from when it all happened.
Some of your questions are strange -- how many Tibetans with advanced degrees for instance. They were largely an agrarian/livestock based culture, so not a whole lot of universities except the monasteries. Some of them just sound like they're designed so they either can't be discredited or to show how much life has been improved by the presence of the Chinese -- there was no bureaucracy for them to participate in before the Chinese came, the monks were the government. The Dalai Lama was the head honcho. Who knows what a couple of generations under Chinese rule have done to peoples opinions and the like.
Most of the entire Tibetan Plateau was devoid of Han Chinese, and the Chinese government has been moving large quantities their people into the region, building railroads, and generally making their presence known. Tibetans are ethnically and linguistically different from Chinese, and they've become a largely marginalized minority.
A google search might not readily turn it up, and I certainly can't give you numbers or statistics. But, I will say that a tremendous amount of this is documented historical fact, and the fact that several 10's of thousands of people walked over the Himalayas (not exactly a walk in the park) to escape wasn't so they could perpetrate a big historical fraud on the rest of us and claim all of this when they could have stayed home and had tea.
Most countries have a population of Tibetan immigrants who have been trickling out for the last five decades to escape the oppression. I won't even try to provide you corroborating evidence here. I've been satisfied with the evidence provided to me, but I'm hardly a store house of it.
People have been protesting and railing about this for a very long time. It's not like these are new or extra-ordinary claims being made.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
While we can't rely on what the Chinese government tells us, it is just as risky relying on what the Tibetan-in-exile tells us. For one, the Tibetan movements are backed by some influence like the CIA behind the back which, of course, would be very interested in having the US to deploy missiles over in Tibet.
The Chinese government have acknowledged atrocities occurred in the 1960's and 70's but those were due to Mao's Cultural Revolution which affected all of China and not just Tibet. In the current times, the Chinese government or Han Chinese probably eradicate Tibetan culture/language/religion probably no more effective than the mainstream Americans eradicating the culture/language/religion of American Indian.
All governments use propaganda- communists use it no more than other kinds. Bought any freedom fries lately?
As for 9/11- the most horrific attack against civilians? Please. It doesn't rate in the top 100, it probably barely makes the top thousand. I can think of a dozen worse ones in this century alone, starting with the rape of Nanking, the firebombing of Dresden, and two nuclear bombs dropped by the US.
As for America being attacked for being successful- nope. We were attacked for being arrogant and controlling. We were the ones who created Bin Laden. We funded his fight in Afghanistan. We took out government after government in the middle east. Our policies make the rich rulers there fabulously wealthy, while everyone else lies in squalor. Those are the reasons we were attacked. And of course, rather than fix anything we're making the problem worse as usual.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Sounds like another form of Godwin's law:
As nationalism increases, the probability of being pissed off at the French approaches one.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
Talk about ignorance. The behavior of the British in China was flat-out evil. From Wikipedia:
China banned the trade and importation of opium, on the basis that "Opium is a poison, undermining our good customs and morality. Its use is prohibited by law." They even wrote to Queen Victoria, asking why, since opium was banned in Britain, the British continued to sell it in China. When China seized opium from British traders who violated the law, Britain responded by invading China, seizing territory and forcing China to allow the opium trade. Other countries achieved similar concessions (including at least the French French, Italian, American sand Japanese). At one point, the British army marched to Beijing and burned down the Old Summer Palace, then said to be one of the wonders of the world .
The Chinese are on firm ground when they criticize past Western behavior in China. They are often correct when they describe our current policies and attitudes as hypocritical and self-serving. I detect an undertone of racism, or at least of xenophobia, in much of what is said about China. These are echoed by many Chinese, in China and in the West. We need to get beyond resentment, arrogance, and paranoia on both sides. The Chinese government is brainwashing its citizens. But (as a student of Communication) I can assure you, our media is doing something similar (in response to different pressures). Even though few people pursue alternative sources of information, it is important that in the West we are permitted access to them. For example, here's an in-depth argument by an expert that the Western media have slandered China with respect to Tibet. I haven't assessed it in detail, and I don't think it exonerates the Chinese government, but it is clear there's much more to this than we're hearing.
I live in Vancouver. Chinese comprise a large proportion of the population here. To stereotype a little, they are thoughtful, productive, essential members of my society. The same is true in Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa. For me, Canada would not be Canada without them. It saddens me greatly to witness the hatred directed toward them, just as it saddens me to see so many intelligent people (on both sides) follow the party line on Tibet.
Here is one of the deepest discussion on Tibet I have seen which include many reference including statistics from academic source which may relate to your questions.
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073&sid=ce0b20590dd445725153c83b5ef21c7f
When you read fictitious Chinese "history" on Tibet and then come here and regurgitate and expect those of us who are reasonably read to buy it, I can only assume you're either a moron or are insulting our intelligence.
At any rate, China has no more business ruling Tibet than Austria would Hungary. Trying to justify it with made-up stories about the state of the Tibetan people, particularly when it's China that's importing Han colonists to eventually wipe out a separate Tibetan people and culture is the worst kind of bullshit apologetics you can ask for.
Go back to plugging yourself into the cowardly monsters that run China. I suppose that makes you feel better. Open discourse where I can declare my government wrong and wicked, and even have a chance of casting a free ballot in a meaningful general election means my society trumps yours. Want to be as good as mine, then rise up with your billion+ countrymen and throw the Communists out, and if you're happy with the Communists, then so be it, but don't try to pass off some crap that the Murderous Cowards of Beijing have made up.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I'd appreciate very mcuh if you could just spend a few minutes read through the following PBS post by M.A.Jones. I couldn't have done a better job summarizing all these: http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073
Sampling Chinese blog and media views on Tibet would be like sampling US blogs and media just after the Iraq War started. It was all pretty rah-rah and gung-ho then. The Chinese are no different.
That doesn't make it right to colonize a whole people with a different language, a different alphabet, different customs, and a different religion.
Interesting factoid: there's oil in Tibet and lots of valuable minerals.
What scares me is more than one western educated Chinese has told me things like this:
"Don't believe what ever Dalailama said in the western world!! He
kills, tortures the ppl in Tibet in the way that no human can bear.
For his birthday, he requires ppl to give him human Eyeballs, skin,
hands as a gift! He treats all the ppl there as slave!
The only reason why he wants Tibet to be independed is bcs he wants
that power back! And he is supported by the western extreme...He was
abandoned from China bcs the goverment and the ppl there can't bear
his cruelty!
"Free" Tibet back the murder??
Don't be fooled by him!!!!
He kills without thinking!!!!!"
They fully believe it is true and have websites with pictures to prove it. I live in China. I want to see Chinese think for themselves. But when this type of mis-information is take as truth, I'm at a complete loss. Well educated Chinese will argue these points as if they where defending their family's honor.