Eee Is 1st Windows Laptop To Support Multi-Touch

An anonymous reader writes "CNET UK has just put up its review of the Asus Eee PC 900 Win running Windows XP and discovered that it's the first Windows machine to support multi-touch, 'Better still, the mouse trackpad supports multi-touch gesture inputs — even in Windows XP. A pinching motion lets you zoom in on images, stretching lets you zoom out, and a two-finger vertical stroking motion allows you to scroll up and down through documents. MacBook Air and iPod touch users have enjoyed this feature for some time, but it's the first we've ever seen it implemented on a Windows laptop.'"

Comments

Where's the patent???

[Raineer]

I have to say I'm surprised this wasn't covered by some sort of patent already, or will tomorrow's Slashdot include the accompanying lawsuit?

I type this from a Macbook, but mine is the cheapest one which didn't get multi-touch :(

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you assume Apple has the patent on multi-touch?...., which it doesn't!

But good luck to them if they tried to patent the gesture.

ps I am patenting my own gesture to apple for being a ripoff company.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey dumbass, macbooks are actually made by Asus, which is also making the Eee. Apple doesn't "own" any laptop factory to speak of.

Re:Where's the patent???

[archkittens]

grandparent did not speculate on ownership of patents, instead simply remarking that they are surprised there are no patents on it.

IIRC, apple DOES own patents relating to the technology, but a Chinese company owns the actual multi-touch hardware patents.

kindly patent shutting your mouth

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

There is too much prior use evidence. For example, do you honestly think that the vertical stroking action when your 'article' is scrolling up and down hasn't been done millions of times before (like in the last hour)?

Re:Where's the patent???

[Kenja]

The first Multi Touch style demo I ever saw was several years ago from Microsoft.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Solra Bizna]

maybe if you're lucky, the author of http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=527884&cid=23125954 will license their newly acquired patent on shutting up to you!

Why don't you establish prior art and shut up yourself?

Because that would invalidate the patent, silly.

-:sigma.SB

Re:Where's the patent???

[kripkenstein]

You can calm down with all the "?"s. Rest assured, if there is a patent, Asus has licensed it. The world won't end.

Anyhow, the most amusing part of the review was the conclusion,

We can't really recommend the Windows version of the Eee PC 900 over its Linux counterpart, primarily because you get nearly twice as much storage space in the Linux version. [...] If you really can't live without XP, then the best course of action is to buy the superior Linux version and install XP yourself. Strange times, when the Windows people are those that are going to have installation hassles...

Also, it is me or does it seem like Cnet is advocating piracy here? I mean, where do they expect you to get XP from; if you buy it yourself, it makes the Linux Eee 900 + off-the-shelf XP quite expensive. Presumably they don't mean that, so what's left...?

Re:Where's the patent???

[nguy]

I have to say I'm surprised this wasn't covered by some sort of patent already, or will tomorrow's Slashdot include the accompanying lawsuit?

Despite the usual Apple PR distortions, Apple didn't invent multitouch and multitouch is old technology. At best, Apple may have some patents covering specific implementations, and even those may not be valid. Apple's real contribution with multitouch was to use just a little bit of it and integrate it well, but that's not patentable.

ASUS either figured they're in the clear, or they're willing to fight it. Good for them.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

The first Multi Touch style demo I ever saw was several years ago from Microsoft. Yes, they seem to be very concentrated on multitouch screens, even if they did not put out any products right now. On a presentation about Win7 they promised amazing and astounding touch support and they are also working on MS Surface. I would not at all be surprised if they expanded their multitouch products and possibilities significantly. As BillG said, "10 fingers is all you need" ;)

Re:Where's the patent???

[revengebomber]

Wipe the hard drive of your old laptop, use the XP key on the Eee.

Re:Where's the patent???

[cheater512]

I'll grab a copy of it right after Duke Nukem Forever.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

This is what Apple does a lot - take something reasonably old and obvious, make it look spiffy and actually usable for someone without a CS degree, then sell (and market) it as the Hot New Thing.


Not that there's anything wrong with that. Especially the "making it actually usable" part. There's lots of k3wl shit out there in the FOSS community, but Apple is one of the few companies that actually manages to sell it to your semi-usual consumers, even if they sometimes scale it down a bit and use marketing that causes geeks to flinch in pain.

Re:Where's the patent???

[wvmarle]

But, as usual with Microsoft, the really cool functions and innovations continue to be postponed to "the next release".

It is quite sad that a cool and very useful feature demonstrated years ago by the leading software maker (by revenue) in the world, has to be made popular by implementation in a mobile phone by a total newcomer in that market (Apple with the iPhone), followed by implementation by a hardware maker on a low-end, low-cost laptop (the EEE). And it is not that this leading software maker can not get hardware makers to change the hardware standards, thinking of the Windows key that is present on virtually any keyboard now on the market.

Re:Where's the patent???

[lixee]

The 20G Xandros Eee seems like a classic case of bait-and-switch to me. A company that couldn't even deliver the 8G is now supposed to sell us 20Gs? I'm not convinced. I smell a deal with MS whereby there is always a severe shortage of Xandros and everyone walking into the store will be forced to get the XP version. And no, I'm not usually a cynic.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw a multitouch demo before the iPod's and Microsoft made the table. In fact, if you check TED, I believe the video is on there.

Re:Where's the patent???

[nametaken]

OEM license follows the machine. You're not supposed to do that. :)

Re:Where's the patent???

[nametaken]

Sheesh... everyone's a lawyer nowadays. ;)

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps Asus shares the patent, as they do build quite a few of Apple's products, as I recall.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, it is me or does it seem like Cnet is advocating piracy here? I mean, where do they expect you to get XP from... It only seems like Cnet is advocating piracy when you take the quote out of context, which you have. The full statement in the Cnet review was

Of course if you really are set on Windows XP, the obvious suggestion would be to buy the Linux machine, then just install XP yourself - assuming that you have a spare copy of XP knocking about that is. Nice try though. Why would you even try to misrepresent that situation, anyway?

Re:Where's the patent???

[nguy]

Especially the "making it actually usable" part.

I think Apple's track record is decidedly mixed; they have committed awful usability blunders in the past. I think on balance, they are no better than FOSS.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm not so sure about that either. Apple's primary business model seems to be to take people's money and spend it on marketing and packaging, while grabbing other people's technologies wherever they can. That seems vaguely parasitic to me...

Re:Where's the patent???

[kripkenstein]

I was quoting from the conclusion. Your quote is from somewhere else in the article, a different page, even.

Re:Where's the patent???

[jimicus]

I think Apple's track record is decidedly mixed; they have committed awful usability blunders in the past. I think on balance, they are no better than FOSS. I would have to disagree with that one.

Usability is something MacOS hammers Linux into the ground for right now. Hardware add-ons just fscking work, which is far more than can be said for Linux.

Granted, a lot of that is to do with hardware manufacturers refusing to release specs. But I've got a whole pile of examples here where specs are available, drivers have been written and yet still the resulting UI is so clunky compared to Windows or Mac equivalents that it is almost painful to use.

Re:Where's the patent???

[naveenoid]

Isnt it obvious?? MS pinched the idea :P

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially the "making it actually usable" part.

I think Apple's track record is decidedly mixed; they have committed awful usability blunders in the past. I think on balance, they are no better than FOSS. You misinterpreted that sentence. It doesn't mean "Apple is especially good at making it actually usable." It means "There's especially nothing wrong with making it actually usable." Look at the following clause, which you also cited (separately, and again out of the correct context) :

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm not so sure about that either. Apple's primary business model seems to be to take people's money and spend it on marketing and packaging, while grabbing other people's technologies wherever they can. That seems vaguely parasitic to me... This quotation is saying there's nothing wrong with, if you'll bother to parse it correctly, "often taking something reasonably old and obvious and making it look spiffy and actually usable for someone without a CS degree."

In other words, the phrase "Not that there's anything wrong with that" is backing up the concept of turning mature technology into slick and usable inventions. Whether or not Apple actually succeeds at this is not even the subject of the comment.

-- Summer Glau

P.S. You don't get it, do you? *sigh*

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. my old ibook G4 has it. I've been using 2 fingers to scroll for some time now on the touchpad.

I also remember seeing demos of this tech back in the early mid 90's from systems that Steve Mann and Thad Starner were creating at MIT.

Re:Where's the patent???

[TheNetAvenger]

This is what Apple does a lot - take something reasonably old and obvious, make it look spiffy and actually usable for someone without a CS degree, then sell (and market) it as the Hot New Thing.

This is giving Apple too much credit even.

The Multi-Touch implementation that Apple has used on the iPhone and iPod and Macbook, are EXACT UI multi-touch concepts 're-introduced' at the TED conference a couple of years back. (I think the demonstration may even be online now for people that didn't attend.)

The TED demonstration put together some cool new ways of using multi-touch ideas for working with photos, zooming in/out etc. And in the TED presentation, the presenters gave the presentation as a spark to get people involved in using the technology, but some of the UI gestures they came up with were off the top of their heads as the admitted and needed to be refined or possibly done better.

Sadly, Apple even copied these multi-touch gestures, not even expanding on the ideas presented as was expected by the presenters at the TED conference. (So not only did Apple copy the ideas, they copied them exactly, not even expanding the features that were made up for the conference to try to inspire better gestures and usage.)

Microsoft also had a few multi-touch demonstrations several years back, along 2002/2003 timeframe when the TabletPC was the new cool thing.

The TED conference presentation was a blend of new ideas, old ideas, and a few MS ideas, etc.

Microsoft's surface also borrows from the TED presentation, although MS has polished some of the gestures and UI concepts, building on their work from earlier and adding in some TED concepts, and actually refining some of the rough ideas that Apple copied from TED. The surface computer is more than multi-touch though, as it can 'see' through the display, and is not limited to tactical input, so it can recognize objects, barcodes, even paintbrushes, etc.

So, ya, you are being way to generous with Apple, the only thing they have done that is new or cool is the marketing that gets people like the parent poster to think Apple created this stuff and gets their loyal fans to look down on other people implementing 'Apple's Technologies'. Geesh...

Re:Where's the patent???

[dangitman]

ps I am patenting my own gesture to apple for being a ripoff company.

That's pretty weird, because of all the computer companies out there, Apple is one that comes up with many fresh ideas, rather than only copying others.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

I'm not that familiar with Multitouch, and maybe it's a bad example, but I stick to my point. I was more commenting on the fact that this is, basically nothing new. The best example would be, in my opinion, OS X itself. I think few people would disagree with the opinion that it's the most Joe Sixpack-compatible *nix out there.

Re:Where's the patent???

[markdavis]

>Usability is something MacOS hammers Linux into the ground for right now.

Usibility in Linux is just fine. I have seen lots of people use it with no problems.

>Hardware add-ons just fscking work, which is far more than can be said for Linux.

Um, I can walk out RIGHT NOW and lay my hands on hardware designed for MS-Windows and watch it fail miserably under Mac-OS. That doesn't prove much. If your point is that Mac-OS supports more hardware than Linux, I would agree. If your point is that Linux has little or no hardware compatability or is "too hard" to use with hardware, I strongly disagree.

On the EEE that my MS-Windows-user neighbor bought (and didn't even know it was Linux based), I brought over a dozen different things and plugged them into that machine and they all worked perfectly, instantly. This included two keyboards, wireless mice, an ipod, an external DVD drive, a pocket USB hard drive, an SD card, a USB memory stick, and my camera. None required any user intervention AT ALL to use, other than to plug it in and wait a second.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Usability is something MacOS hammers Linux into the ground for right now. Hardware add-ons just fscking work, which is far more than can be said for Linux. By 'just fscking work', I assume you mean hardware that have 'for Mac' or are just standard USB dongles, because anything else will tend to behave quite badly.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

Well...

>two keyboards, wireless mice, an ipod
Standard equipment that would cause a riot if it wasn't supported. Yes, even the iPod.

>an external DVD drive, a pocket USB hard drive, an SD card, a USB memory stick, and my camera
All the same class of equipment, USB mass storage devices. They likely even use the same driver. Well, maybe not the DVD if it's burner.

But still, try something more challenging, like a sound card or an unusual video card.

Re:Where's the patent???

[TheRaven64]

The Apple patent in question relates to specific gestures, such as pinching to zoom, which the EeePC supports under Linux. I don't know whether Apple will license the patent or if Asus will challenge it. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that is sufficiently novel to be a valid patent, but who knows these days.

Re:Where's the patent???

[markdavis]

True, they are mostly HID or mass storage devices (plus DVD writer). But aren't those exactly the types of devices that are going to be used the most on something like the EEE? I don't see the need to plug a USB "video card" into the EEE. It has it's own display and already supports an external VGA port :) Ditto with a USB "sound card".

I am sure there are going to be people trying to plug in things that don't "just work" as the original comment went. But most of the stuff won't "just work" under MS-Windows (or Mac-OS) either... the user has to find and install "drivers" and then some type of application to use it with. Granted, they will have much greater odds of success under MS-Windows (and perhaps MacOS- although there is no MacEEE) than under the Linux version of the EEE, but it certainly isn't effortless or magic.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

The Eee is certainly one of the more (most) usable Linux systems out there, which is of course helped by its limited hardware expansion capabilities. But I thought we were talking about Linux usability/hardware compatibility in general now.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Usability depends on the user, not everyone finds OSX easy or pleasant to use.
Hardware add-ons working on Macs (yeah if they're running windows ...), it's laughable.
The same printers that work on free *nixes work on OSX (CUPS)
Most usb devices that work on linux don't work on OSX and that includes wireless adapters, cameras, tv tuners, joysticks, storage.
All usb devices that work on OSX work on linux.

Re:Where's the patent???

[ozmanjusri]

But good luck to them if they tried to patent the gesture.

Apple HAS tried to patent multitouch gestures.

We discussed it here a few months ago.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

It's all a matter of expectations.

Hardcore Mac users will expect to buy hardware that is certified to work and pay a premium for it. And they say "everything just works on a Mac".

Hardcore Linux users will expect to buy Hardware they heard good things about on the internet, tweak the configurations a bit, download a few packages and patches, maybe compile a kernel or two, and fiddle about until they're satisfied. And they say "everything just works on Linux".

Hardcore Windows users will expect to buy just about anything, maybe install a driver, and then have it more or less working. And they say "everything just works on Windows".

The bottom line is: Never ask "hardcore" people about usability. And this being /., everyone is hardcore.

Re:Where's the patent???

[RiotingPacifist]

Yeah a few years ago, I took a broken machine into a tech shop and told them that I was using a key of a broken box at home, I was shocked to find out that i wast allowed to do that.
What surprised me was when I got a new laptop, it came with an XP key stuck to it, but the tech guy asked me if i wanted xp/vista, I went for vista and the guy just stuck it on there and registered for me (he was MS certified too).

Also if you pay for the keys, why the hell cant you download CDs anywhere, i was FORCED (kicking and screaming i tell you) to go with ubuntu on my old laptop because, my dad didn't get the Acer disk (or lost them) and it was impossible to find one to install XP from (even though i had a license)

BTW what is defined as the machine for a desktop? is it just the motherboard, obviously upgrading the motherboard will invalidate the OEM warenty, but does it invalidate you license too?

Re:Where's the patent???

[RiotingPacifist]

Um, I can walk out RIGHT NOW and lay my hands on hardware designed for MS-Windows and watch it fail miserably under Mac-OS. That doesn't prove much. If your point is that Mac-OS supports more hardware than Linux, I would agree. I dont understand what your saying, there's a lot more MS windows type hardware than Mac. Also theres alot of hardware that windows/macos wont run on but linux will. Or are we only talking peripherals here, in which case there are weak spots on the linux front, e.g webcams, external sound cards, etc. (also a couple of places where it beats both mac & windows)

Standard equipment that would cause a riot if it wasn't supported. Yes, even the iPod. Even though Apple deliberately try to break support with every version they release?

Re:Where's the patent???

[smallfries]

It's strange that you say that because the first multi-touch demo that I remember seeing was a table sized input device that they used to control C&C and google earth. It strikes me as strange because it is the exact same technology that Microsoft have cloned and claimed to have invented with the Surface... Small world when you're competing with Microsoft I guess.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Fred_A]

If your point is that Mac-OS supports more hardware than Linux, I would agree. Very debatable. It might have changed with the coming of the intel Mac but when I used my iBook G4, finding compatible hardware that wasn't Apple branded (except for stuff that used generic protocols such as Mass Storage) was fairly difficult.

Finding a compatible webcam was pretty much impossible.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Microsoft did invent MultiTouch years ago ... it's called ctrl-alt-dele.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Mateo_LeFou]

Linux supports more devices on more architectures than any other OS. And, if I recall correctly, it's not even close. The latest sound cards and "unusual" video cards (from Best Buy?) are not a good test of hardware support. They only test market share.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

Standard equipment that would cause a riot if it wasn't supported. Yes, even the iPod. Even though Apple deliberately try to break support with every version they release? It's BECAUSE Apple breaks compatibility. Nothing gets Linux coders to code faster than being locked out of desirable hardware for no good reason. They will make it work just to spite Apple.

P.S. This is mostly joking but there IS some grain of truth in it if you think about it.

Re:Where's the patent???

[grm_wnr]

The latest sound cards and "unusual" video cards (from Best Buy?) are not a good test of hardware support. They only test market share. Uh huh. So you recommend measuring market share in the way that makes your choice of OS looks best, not in terms of how much it "benefits" (as in, perceived usability) the general public? Yeah, I bet telling people that they can run Linux on old Sun or Alpha workstations will certainly make them flock to it in droves, after all, it's so compatible with everything. Face it, geek cred is just not the same as street cred.

Re:Where's the patent???

[dfghjk]

"Apple's real contribution with multitouch was to use just a little bit of it and integrate it well, but that's not patentable."

What is patentable will surprise you.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Like?

Floppy disks? No, Hard disks? No, Optical disks? No
Microprocessor? No, Personal computer? No
PCI bus? No, AGP? No, PCIe? No, USB? No
PDAs? No, Portable MP3 player? No
Touchpads? No, Multi-touch? No
GUI? No, A decent OS? No
Mouse? No, Chiclet keyboards? No
1-click? No, Turtlenecks? No

So what exactly has Apple actually created besides Firewire and the reality distortion field? Apple hasn't done shit.

Re:Where's the patent???

[TriezGamer]

If you can find CDs or DVDs for a Microsoft OS on the web, you aren't looking hard enough.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Zencyde]

Oh yeah.. boot camp is TOTALLY a fresh idea. : ) So are MP3 players. So is using Unix as a base for your OS and not paying for it or giving back to the community. Yep, Apple is full of PLENTY Of fresh ideas. : )
As far as I'm concerned, all of their fresh ideas suck. For instance, have you actually tried to type on their new keyboard? Fresh ideas indeed...

Re:Where's the patent???

[proselyte_heretic]

I can't wait until Microsoft starts losing patent lawsuits because there is a precedent of them promising an implementation of a feature, and failing to deliver.

Re:Where's the patent???

[I(rispee_I(reme]

That's right- look until you can't find 'em.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll grab a copy of it right after Duke Nukem Forever.

I don't get it.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Like OSX is going to figure out what a Sun Niagara is and properly configure itself for it?

Or like it's going to know how to handle my older SoundBlaster, or my custom-built PCI radio card?

Re:Where's the patent???

[HairyCanary]

All of what you say may be fact. But Apple deserves credit for the one MOST IMPORTANT THING you did not mention. They actually produced a product with the technology. I don't care in the slightest if someone else demonstrated it at some show a few years back, I care if I can use it right now on my own computer. Apple gets credit for forcing the industry to move forward -- very soon all touchscreens & trackpads will need to support multitouch, or be considered stone-age. It's kinda similar to visual voicemail on the iphone -- so completely obvious, yet nobody bothered to do it until Apple did. How long until every cell phone has visual voice mail? How come it took this long to leverage the fancy graphical interfaces and break voicemail from the audio-only interface of the past?
 
Kudos to Apple for pushing the technology. I don't care that they did not invent it.

Re:Where's the patent???

[@madeus]

When the iPod came out, hard disk based MP3 players where a new thing. The only other multi gigabyte MP3 player at the time based device was the poorly received Nomad - which was the size of a CD player (not something you could fit in a regular pocket).

Apple have paid for the UNIX OS,they pay licensing fees to the Open Group. They contribute back their changes to software such as GCC, KHTML/WebKit and other pojects - as is well documented.

But I guess the facts just get in the way of a bit of blind hatred.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Zencyde]

I'm a classic Mac fan. : ( There's a lot of blind hatred there. i grew up with a Performa...

Re:Where's the patent???

[Tragek]

The really skinny one? I actually enjoy it...

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Poof that talking about something is a million miles from bringing a product to market. How can the two even be compared?

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

I always feel that Apple is actually a more obnoxious version of Microsoft because they tout their products like it's the best thing since sliced bread. Apple does not really innovate either, it only takes what others have invented but make it better or more to the masses. Think the GUI (Xerox), mp3 player (there were a bunch before ipod came along). Apple also uses its power to coerce its partners, think how apple essentially forced the music industry into abandoning DRM. Just that the company couldn't get as big as Microsoft, thus it does not attract the attention of the DOJ.

Re:Where's the patent???

[joes_meat]

Unusual sound and video cards? In an eeePC?

Re:Where's the patent???

[nguy]

Usability is something MacOS hammers Linux into the ground for right now.

Yeah? And your evidence for that is what?

Hardware add-ons just fscking work, which is far more than can be said for Linux.

Funny, I have a lot of hardware add-ons that I plug into a Mac and they don't work at all: they're either Windows-only, or they don't have up-to-date drivers for OS X, or the drivers don't fscking work.

In fact, the same kind of hardware add-ons work on Linux and on Macintosh: supported hardware with high quality drivers.

Re:Where's the patent???

[laffer1]

When things work on a Mac, it is very easy to use. However, not all hardware "just works". For instance, we've got some usb devices at work which cause kernel panics just by plugging them in. As a result, we have to use bootcamp and run the devices with Windows.

The situation did not improve with Leopard.

I would even argue apple went backwards with Leopard on usability. With Linux moving forward with easy to use distros like ubuntu, I think they'll meet up in the next few years. I don't think that means we'll see the year of linux, but hardware support and usability won't be issues at that point.

The next few problems the open source community needs to work on are 1. working together. I'm not just talking bsd and gpl fans. I've seen issues with GNU software and other GNU software. 2. Creating software that fills in holes. We need answers to iTunes, iWork and iLife in the home market. I think there is some promise with several apps to replace iTunes. Open Office does not count. It is not like pages, numbers and keynote but rather Microsoft Office. It is also not that portable. We have nothing to replace iLife. 3. Advertising. No one knows about linux on the desktop. Tell them!

Re:Where's the patent???

[phreakincool]

If you're talking about the skinny aluminum keyboard, I'm typing on one now. Its plugged into a WinXP box. Its great!

Re:Where's the patent???

[jorgevillalobos]

I have been using their new keyboards for quite some time, and I find them very comfortable. Plus, they are as compact as I think is humanly possible (until the next one comes along to prove me wrong), which is a big plus for me.

Re:Where's the patent???

[twnth]

Why we all have legit full versions of XP lying about after we bought full versions of Vista to upgrade our systems.

Really.

And some of us also have liscences left on our action pack subscriptions.

Re:Where's the patent???

[jimicus]

In fact, the same kind of hardware add-ons work on Linux and on Macintosh: supported hardware with high quality drivers. You completely misunderstand the point I was making.

Even when the drivers are there (eg. scanners, graphics tablets), it is by no means uncommon to find that the available software to make use of them absolutely stinks.

(Mind you, HP seem to have been trying to close that gap by producing appalling user-land software for their printers under Windows for a few years now).

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't had a driver issue for years on ubuntu now. My father's Mac Book Pro, on the other hand, has had terrible trouble.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Belial6]

I don't see how "multi-touch" is considered even close to new. I remember using two mice to play Lemmings back in '91. Yes "multi-touch" is using a touchpad, but can you imagine what it would have been like if we had the same problem with "touchpad" pantents that we have with "computer" patents? A pantent on selecting email "with a touchpad"? A patent on shutting down your computer "with a touchpad"?

Re:Where's the patent???

[WiiVault]

While I think we can all agree that Linux (especiall certain distros) have come a long way in the last few years, I think it is stretching it a bit to compare to the Mac or even Windows. Configuring Linux with its various window managers and dependencies is one of the reasons it has yet to make a dent in the desktop. A properly configured machine can be just fine for grandma but don't expect her to set it up herself- thats why she keeps buying the same 'ol Windows PC or Mac.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Very nice :-).

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

"Fanboi" is actually a term specifically designed for people who use Macs that don't listen to reason. Us Linux equivalents are called "zealots" =D

Have a nice day!

Re:Where's the patent???

[PCM2]

A company that couldn't even deliver the 8G is now supposed to sell us 20Gs? Central Computer in San Francisco had about four of the 8G models in a glass case when I was there a few weeks ago, along with several of the 4G models.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

The Archos Jukebox was a hard disk based MP3 player that was available almost a full year before the first iPod was released. I remember wishing I had bought one instead of the Rio PMP300.

Re:Where's the patent???

[spectecjr]

The Surface demo, complete with all that multitouch stuff, came out at the end of May of last year.

The iPhone wasn't released until the end of June of last year.

It's not difficult to claim to have invented something when you did it first.

Re:Where's the patent???

[spectecjr]

Oh yeah, that and all of this tech has been predated by other work out of Xerox Parc by a least 17 years. (See "Digital Desktop" - 1991 - at that link)

Re:Where's the patent???

[dangitman]

Did I say they invented anything? No. I said fresh ideas. Like making a personal computer with a great GUI. Like making a portable music player that isn't a piece of shit. Like re-engineering their OS based on Linux. Like building trackballs into laptops in front of the keyboard. Like making a great video editing suite that turned the industry on its head. Like making a great professional photo management application.

Apple hasn't done shit.

Yeah, I'm sure you've accomplished so much more in your life than Apple has. Hell, than even a single employee of Apple has.

Re:Where's the patent???

[dangitman]

i grew up with a Performa...

Oh, you poor man. I think you need to check into a rehab clinic right away. Something with a soothing icon garden and a pet Dogcow.

Re:Where's the patent???

[dangitman]

It was also the size of a brick and had slow USB 1.1 transfer. Why would anyone want to use that? Apple made the first well-designed MP3 player. And sorry, but when did anyone ever claim that Apple invented the MP3 player? Trolls like you are always bringing this up as if it's some kind of revelation - as if people really believe that Apple was the first company to make an MP3 player. The thing is, nobody believes that, and you are clutching at strawmen, because you simply don't understand the discussion that is going on around you.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish there were an 85-key version. Okay, 86 if Apple sticks their logo in there, I wouldn't mind it at all. Imagine, a thin-n-slim keyboard, hooked up to your imaginary Mac.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

Did I say they invented anything? No.

You implied it when you said:

"That's pretty weird, because of all the computer companies out there, Apple is one that comes up with many fresh ideas, rather than only copying others."

Note the bold.

I said fresh ideas. Like making a personal computer with a great GUI. Like making a portable music player that isn't a piece of shit.

All subjective. For example, many more people prefer the Windows UI. The same goes for other MP3 players.

Like re-engineering their OS based on Linux.

Wow, I really should just stop responding to you right here since it's obvious that you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

Like building trackballs into laptops in front of the keyboard.

Considering their first laptop wasn't released until 1991, I seriously doubt that they were the first to do so.

Like making a great video editing suite that turned the industry on its head.

The independent filmmaking industry perhaps. Very few "real" Hollywood filmmakers use Final Cut.

Like making a great professional photo management application.

There are literally dozens of excellent image viewers/managers out there, both free and commercial. iPhoto is a drop in the bucket.

Yeah, I'm sure you've accomplished so much more in your life than Apple has. Hell, than even a single employee of Apple has.

Considering that you don't know a thing about me, that is an incredibly ignorant statement. On the other hand, we all know about what Apple as a company has done. In addition, whatever I have done, at least I have never hyped nor sought credit for something where it wasn't due, which is more than I can say about Apple.

Re:Where's the patent???

[cbhacking]

I've actually used a Surface computer. Granted, it was on MS Campus, but in a more-or-less public location (i.e. no card-key access needed). It was in a fairly limited demo mode, but it was functional, with very smooth multi-touch.

I asked about it, and was told that they are actually being built and shipped, and that some businesses are already starting to deploy them. I haven't *seen* one yet, but this was only a few weeks ago, and I haven't visited any hotels (apparently the most interested customer thus far) since then.

Re:Where's the patent???

[wvmarle]

The main innovation here is the touch pad itself: allowing the tracking of two (or more) positions at the same time. Most touch pads can't do that. Using two mice at the same time of course doesn't have that issue, then it's only the software that's left to worry about.

Re:Where's the patent???

[smallfries]

I was not comparing the iPhone to the the Surface. Seriously, reread my comment because I'm not sure how you could get it that wrong. The clue is the subtle descriptive language like table sized input device. Now you may think that the iPhone is a brick, but surely table-sized is going too far? April 2006 predates the Surface by a long way. It was not invented by microsoft.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Belial6]

I can accept a patent on the specific method of identifying two points on a touch screen, but anything beyond that is a bogus patent.

Re:Where's the patent???

[Homer1946]

Part of Apples "magic" is that they actually use and release this sort of technology in a usable way, instead of just sitting on it. The willingness and ability to do that deserves much more credit than you give. Others then follow Apple.

Re:Where's the patent???

[TheNetAvenger]

Actually No...

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=527884&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=23128070#23129306

Read my post on this subject by other person from earlier. Apple's only Magic is in the manipulation that their marketing does and gets away with. (In the UK they don't get away with it as easily, and other marketing companies even frown on the 'techniques' used by Apple because it is very subversive and dangerous because it creates undue fanaticism.)

When people are asked why Apple is good, the reason of the 'favorable' impression of Apple starts with a general line of made up excuses to explain their 'unknown' love of the Company. Even you call what Apple does 'magic', because you might even have a hard time justifying your love of their products or the company.

This is how they work, they get you to love them and their products for reasons that are not logical, and when pressed creates a defensive dichotomy in people.

I have often criticized Microsoft for having a horrible marketing team and poor communication between their developers/researchers and the marketing team. You can witness this from Vista for example, instead of list 2000 new features in Vista and stuff that does matter to people, the marketing team is ignorant of technical features and then picks stupid features that are irrelevant to try to sell Vista. Trying to sell Vista by using Flip3D as a feature is insane and cheapens Vista in the context of the developers that worked on it.

The reason I even mention Microsoft, because if they ran ads like, "Hi, I'm a Mac,' the industry would slap them around for being dishonest. Most of these ads are cute, but are general or flat out lies. Take the Upgrade to Vista ad from them, generally saying that poor PC needs all upgraded hardware. However when Leopard 10.5 shipped it has the same hardware requirements that Vista does, 512mb minimum, 1gb to run as good as previous version, and 2gb to fly. Even video cards, Vista 'wants' a newer video card but scales back to a 1991 video card if needed. OS X 10.5 on the other hand 'demands' the video card be 3D accelerated and newer than the video cards that shipped in a lot of early OS X based Macs. OS X 10.5 will install and work on older video cards, but several 'features' flat out will not even run or display on the screen at all if you have an older Video Card. So here OS X 10.5 truly requires just as much of an upgrade as Vista, and for Video even more so, as it can't scale back to non 3D cards without losing features. (Time Machine fails on a Rage 128 card for example.)

So if you read my other post, you can see that I easily refuted the concept that Apple gets it to market 'first', so what is your next defensive based reasoning that Apple has Magic?

What is the Magic?

Here people will bring up the hardware and software work together, but with PCs made in the last 5 or 6 years, they also just work with the software, without a hardware software lock in.

Next you will hear Apple's UI is better, works better, is more consistent.. and this is a debateable fact, but there are some good arguments about UI where Apple fails, for example the ties to a Menu bar instead of moving to a new UI paradigm. Menu bars were a quick fix to early GUI development, as you could get all the features on the screen in a small amount of space, but Menus are nothing more than word lists, and this is very anti-GUI in concept.

Consistency is another area that could be argued against OS X, as there are the keystrokes that lived in the pre OS X era that don't work or don't always work in every application. And there are even simple things like the Apple key, or the Backspace/Delete keys not working consistently across all applications. This kind of inconsistency doesn't exist in Windows, and Windows is also more keyboard friendly even without menus, as you ca

Re:Where's the patent???

[TheNetAvenger]

PS...

Just a semi-funny side note.

I was at my mothers house last week and 'Dirt' was on and we were all partially watching it. There was a moment in the episode where 'Lucy' was complaining to her photographer about getting a new Cell Phone since his was junk.

My mom, who is not a technical person at all, said, "Why don't she get a new phone, is she cheap or is this an old show?"

I asked mom what she meant, and she went on a little rant about how 'Lucy' is bitching about the guys cell phone, while she is dialing her phone by hand and using a corded headset. Mom asked what kind of crap is she using, and I responded an 'iPhone', and my mother literally gasped.

I explained to her, that iPhones support bluetooth headsets, like my mom has, but you can't dial from them as it doesn't have voice recognition dialing.

My mom was literally shocked that the phone she had heard so many people talking about couldn't do a basic thing her 4 year old phone could, like do voice recognition.

I actually tried to defend the iPhone for a bit, then started thinking, I don't care. My mom's sense of 'oh my gawd that is so stupid', was justified, since she uses her headset 24/7 and couldn't dream of having to go back to looking at a cellphone to dial it.

My spouse then added, it also don't have GPS, which mom uses on her phone for turn by turn instructions, and it doesn't have 3G(high speed) so it can't be used it to watch videos or TV away from a WiFi hotspot, which my mom does all the time because she has the TV subscription for her phone since it can do 3G.

Mom then asked, so if it is lacking so many features, why do people love it? I again tried to explain the multi-touch, and UI is kind of cool, but my mom's response was, why would that be great, I don't even have to look at my phone to use it, so I don't care how cute the UI is.

This became a big discussion and myself and others ran out of 'why' it was so good that people went nuts for them, other than saying it was magical or Apple had good marketing, the argument was dead in the water.

(I should note my mom also syncs music to her phone all the time, and it is her MP3 player. She has two miniSD cards an older 1Gb and a new 4Gb card. The phone has stereo bluetooth support, and she uses a stereo bluetooth headset when listening to music, and a cheap motorola 850 bluetooth headset when she isn't using it for music.)

She would be the classic market for an iPhone or iPod, but the phone she has is better for her in many ways, and works easily for her. She touches the button on headset and says "Dial 555-1212" and it just works...

Re:Where's the patent???

[dangitman]

You implied it when you said: "That's pretty weird, because of all the computer companies out there, Apple is one that comes up with many fresh ideas, rather than only copying others."

That's not implied in any way. I meant that Apple didn't just outright copy things - they put their own unique touches on ideas that they might not have invented outright. You know that "inventors" don't usually come up with fully-formed ideas that can't be improved, don't you? If we were just using things as they were originally invented, that would suck pretty hard. Refining those ideas is not a trivial exercise, and can be more substantial and/or creative than coming up with the idea in the first place.

rather than only copying others. Note the bold.

That's right. Apple didn't just say "hey, I'm going to sell the same computers as everybody else, and just slap Windows on them", which is what most of the industry does.

All subjective. For example, many more people prefer the Windows UI. The same goes for other MP3 players.

Care to provide any evidence that "many more people" prefer the interface on Windows and "other MP3 players"? And notice that Microsoft just copied GUI from Apple. Kind of proves my point, doesn't it?

Wow, I really should just stop responding to you right here since it's obvious that you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

I made a typo. So sue me. Clearly, I meant UNIX.

Considering their first laptop wasn't released until 1991, I seriously doubt that they were the first to do so.

Well, you'd be wrong.

The independent filmmaking industry perhaps. Very few "real" Hollywood filmmakers use Final Cut.

Not true. Many Hollywood filmmakers use it. And even if it were "only" independent filmmakers, how is that an insignificant achievement?

There are literally dozens of excellent image viewers/managers out there, both free and commercial. iPhoto is a drop in the bucket.

Uhhh, I was talking about Aperture, not iPhoto. iPhoto sucks. That's a funny one, coming from someone who claims to know so much.

In addition, whatever I have done, at least I have never hyped nor sought credit for something where it wasn't due, which is more than I can say about Apple.

Got any examples of this "undue credit"?

Re:Where's the patent???

[Mateo_LeFou]

I could care less who flocks to what in droves. But "hardware support" is a measurable quality. You measure it by the number of pieces of hardware that are supported. It's not particularly interesting to me that a few dozen nonfree devices have partnered up with a couple of nonfree OSes so that they might appear to have "better hardware support" or "better usability".

Re:Where's the patent???

[Anonymous Coward]

if you just tried to compare using two mice to the type of multi-touch referred to in the article, you really have no clue.

SDHC and BIOS fan control fixed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the 900 fix the problems experienced in the 700 series like the built-in flakey SDHC controller (which is only spec'd for SD cards, but sometimes works for SDHCs) or the loud fan problems of the 702s?

Pinching zooms in?

[iminplaya]

That seems so backwards. Eh, whaddo I know? I hate trackpads.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Facegarden]

it is backwards. i wonder if the poster made a mistake, or if the Eee PC is just weird? pinching to zoom out feels natural on the iphone... i feel like the opposite would be odd. -Taylor

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, pinching zooms out on iPhones and Macs.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[AuMatar]

Really? Makes sense to me- you're reducing the field of view, so you move your fingers inwards (your fingers representing the field of view). The opposite sounds awkward to me.

Then again, I think the entire deal is a little silly- just add a scroll wheel.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Really? Makes sense to me- you're reducing the field of view, so you move your fingers inwards (your fingers representing the field of view). The opposite sounds awkward to me.

I suppose, if you have the photographic mindset. I think most people can deal better with the idea of resizing the image, not a more abstract concept of FOV, especially when it's actually resizing an image on a display.

Then again, I think the entire deal is a little silly- just add a scroll wheel.

The two finger scrolling is pretty nice though. I really don't see the point in adding a scroll wheel. It's an unnecessary addition of a mechanical component when existing electronic components should do the job for most people. And it's easier to deal with as a scroll wheel would need to be accompanied with another keystroke to tell the computer that it's a resize and not a scrolling action.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[AndGodSed]

I really don't see the point in adding a scroll wheel. It's an unnecessary addition of a mechanical component when existing electronic components should do the job for most people. Well on my (circa 2001) laptop stroking up and down on the right (or left, or top, or bottom [depending on how you set up the sorftware]) area of the track-pad acts the same way a scroll wheel would. So a mechanical component would not actually be necessary.

And it's easier to deal with as a scroll wheel would need to be accompanied with another keystroke to tell the computer that it's a resize and not a scrolling action. Yes. I run Ubuntu and I need to hold down [Alt] in
order to zoom. It would make more sense to hold one finger on the pad and stroke the pad with the other - but I am guessing multi-touch works in a similar way.

I wonder how hard it would be to actually write software that would allow multi-touch on any trackpad? On my trackpad tapping with three fingers works as middle-button would on a "proper" mouse, and tapping with two works like right-click, altough I prefer to use one of the corners.

Basically I think scrolling is easy to implement with a trackpad, a third button is harder - depending on your needs...

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[cheater512]

Put two fingers on a normal track pad and it cannot tell where your fingers actually are.
It can see a press in four places instead of two.

You could write some tricky software to emulate it but it wouldnt be as good.
E.g. Pinpoint the location of the first finger that touched and then use that information to work out where the second is.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[AndGodSed]

Ah - you see I did not actually know that. I see when I put two fingers on my trackpad I let the mouse cursor jump between them and end up where the last of the two fingers land.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[cheater512]

Yeah thats it getting the four presses and finding the middle of them.
I think it may be able to sense how strong your pressing (with the capacitance sensor) to do the sliding trick.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[amRadioHed]

I wonder how hard it would be to actually write software that would allow multi-touch on any trackpad? On my trackpad tapping with three fingers works as middle-button would on a "proper" mouse, and tapping with two works like right-click, altough I prefer to use one of the corners. It would be pretty hard since the typical trackpad hardware doesn't support multitouch. If the hardware only reports one point of contact to the OS then no amount of coding can work around that.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[RiotingPacifist]

when I was in windows synaptic used to have a little program that would track your fingers (think it was called moodpad), by looking at the picture it was fairly easy to see what I was doing. I think it would be fairly doable to see to cirular blobs and recognise it as two fingers (obviously it wont be as good as hardware, and use more CPU), but I think the main reason it hasn't been done is it would lack the software integration to be usefull.

Does the Linux version have the same multi-touch sensor?
If the Linux drivers support this sort of thing in hardware, im sure somebody will write a layer to go in and do it in software. So advances made for the EEE or gPhone, would go back into all-laptops.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Nitemare14]

From the limited amount of time playing with trackpads that I've had (don't like them, prefer the nub thingy, whatever the hell the correct term is), once you put another finger on the pad, it ignores the first one and moves the mouse to the second one. It might not work all that well, but someone could possibly make something that recognizes that the mouse just moved slightly to the side and assume it's from a second finger.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[ceoyoyo]

Have you use the pinch to zoom? It's quite intuitive on an iPhone or iPod touch, where your fingers are right on the image. It's slightly less so on the touchpad, but still fine. WAY better than the other way.

The two fingers to scroll is one of the best features ever. Even when I have a full sized mouse hooked up I'll use the trackpad scroll when I'm reading something.

Incidentally, my Powerbook from about four or five years ago does the two finger scrolling, so Mac notebooks have had the best of the gesture recognition for a long time.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[amRadioHed]

Interesting idea, you might be able to get some functionality from that but nothing too useful. With that trick you wouldn't be able to tell if the two fingers were moving apart to stretch or moving together to scroll, so you'd probably be limited to just scrolling.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Facegarden]

Really? Makes sense to me- you're reducing the field of view, so you move your fingers inwards (your fingers representing the field of view). The opposite sounds awkward to me. Then again, I think the entire deal is a little silly- just add a scroll wheel. Pinching to zoom out makes sense when you see it (i know, i looked at my friend's iPhone), but luckily i know why and can explain too. Imagine an image with points A and B spaced evenly from top to bottom. Put one finger on A, and one Finger on B, and spread your fingers apart. If spreading your fingers zooms out (and at the right rate), your fingers stay on points A and B, which feels natural, like the points are "stuck" to your finger. Put another way, imagine "holding" A with one finger, while "Grabbing" onto B with another finger, and then pulling B downward. If they were pennies on a desk, they'd go farther apart, which is the same as what would happen if you would zoom into the AB image.

This makes more sense when a DISPLAY is multitouch, rather than just a trackpad, because on the display you can see the stuff "stick" under your finger.

It's all pretty intuitive tho.
-Taylor

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[AuMatar]

I think the point here is that "intuitive" doesn't really exist- people think differently. I've used an iphone, and I thought the zoom was backwards. It's really all down to how people think, and what they're used to.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Provocateur]

if you have the photographic mindset.

It makes sense to one who also wears glasses: think of pinching as in picking it up to take a closer look, and spreading fingers apart as in dropping it for an 'aerial' or birds-eye view.

Now it makes me want to get a keyboard with a touchpad like that. I would sooo use it. Using the scrollbar for zoom kinda twists the purpose of scrollbars when they were primarily intended for paging up or down.

Re:Pinching zooms in?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Have you use the pinch to zoom? It's quite intuitive on an iPhone or iPod touch, where your fingers are right on the image. It's slightly less so on the touchpad, but still fine. WAY better than the other way.

I don't have any device that uses pinch to do anything.

What they were talking was pinch zoom in / unpinch to zoom out, which I thought that's the opposite of the way the iDevices do it, pinch makes the picture and everything in the picture smaller and not larger.

keyboard is king

[timmarhy]

nothing defeats the keyboard for easy and speed of input.

Re:keyboard is king

[Facegarden]

nothing defeats the keyboard for easy and speed of input. Unless you're not typing... There are lots of ways to define the word "input". You're using a mouse aren't you? Clearly it beats the keyboard some of the time... Similarly, track pads are better than keyboards for mousing around, and multitouch track pads are better still, i can imagine. Remember, this is Slashdot, you have to be painfully specific and accurate or someone will call you out. -Taylor

Re:keyboard is king

[Raineer]

I've really gotten away from using a mouse for anything, if I can help it. I have gotten too used to using a laptop and just being too lazy to drag out the bluetooth mouse. It's really difficult to claim anything can be faster than keyboard, as by the time most people finish wiggling their mouse to the target the keystrokes are overwith.

Re:keyboard is king

[Facegarden]

Ehh, unless you're doing lots of web browsing, which is mostly scrolling and clicking. I know you can use the arrow keys and such, but really, that just sucks. I use keyboard shortcuts left and right, and i use the keyboard more than most (us nerds not included) but some things are better left to other input devices. -Taylor

Re:keyboard is king

[hvm2hvm]

that's why i hate browsing. it's very mouse oriented. i would love to see a browser that has a system like those on mobiles where you can scroll and select with the keyboard. it would make browsing enjoyable for me, because for now it's painful to keep going back to the mouse when i need to click a simple link.

Re:keyboard is king

[Solra Bizna]

Konqueror lets you scroll up and down with the cursor keys (shift+cursor key has some neat effects, too) and make all links on-screen keyboard-accessible by tapping "control."

-:sigma.SB

Re:keyboard is king

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember reading about a Firefox extension in a magazine years ago which gave each link on a page a unique number which you could then type to open the appropriate link. I never tried it, but I think it would be perfect on notebooks such as my Eee PC.

Re:keyboard is king

[Phil Urich]

Yeah umm as another poster has already commented, Konqueror does that naturally, just tap ctrl and every link gets a letter. And the eeePC already HAS Konqueror on it, even though it isn't listed anywhere; if you're in Basic mode, just hit ctrl-alt-t and type in "konqueror" in the terminal window that pops up; F11 to full-screen and browse away with your keyboard.

Re:keyboard is king

[value_added]

Konqueror lets you scroll up and down with the cursor keys (shift+cursor key has some neat effects, too) and make all links on-screen keyboard-accessible by tapping "control."

Are there motions for "I'm crushing your head"?

Seriously, though, I agree with the OP about keyboard input, and one (as a vi user) that hopefully doesn't involve taking your hands off the keyboard to reach for frigging arrow keys. Sort of like the difference between grunting, or poking something with a stick, and having a conversation.

That said, I do think all this multitouch pinching and two-finger vertical stroking sounds interesting. I say the same every time my wife suggests I try it, and ...

wait for it ...

we don't even own an Eee PC!

Re:keyboard is king

[amRadioHed]

That entirely depends on what you're doing. I do most of my file management from the shell since it's typically way easier and faster, however if you need to move a number of arbitrary files from one directory to another I'd much rather select them from the directory in KDE then type each filename out in the shell. Also I really doubt freehand drawing in a graphics program would be quicker from the keyboard unless maybe you're going for that Etch-A-Sketch look.

Re:keyboard is king

[bob.appleyard]

It's called Hit-a-Hint and it's really good. You hold the spacebar down and all the links that are currently visible get allocated a number. When you key in that number and release the spacebar it follows the link. It also works with form elements which is nice. Flash is still a pain to use though.

Re:keyboard is king

[harry666t]

Doesn't work with >= 2.0.0.13 ;( or I rly need to check out the updates

Re:keyboard is king

[tehBoris]

If you are using Firefox or Epiphany, pressing / will allow you to search the text of the link and press enter to access it.

Or you could just use a CLI browser to minimize the use of the rodent.

Re:keyboard is king

[bazonic]

>> It's really difficult to claim anything can be faster than keyboard

I take it you are not a user of Photoshop (insert favorite image/video editing software here).

Re:keyboard is king

[hvm2hvm]

i actually use konqueror along with the shortcuts you are talking about but it's not good enough. the ctrl-tapping thing is great but only works if there are only a handful of links on the page. it should at least put shortcuts for the links visible, not from the beginning of the page. even then it wouldn't be as good as being able to select any control on the page with the cursor keys (tabbing is a pain in the ass compared to going to the mouse and clicking the thing).

Re:keyboard is king

[Anonymous Coward]

And for normal usage (assuming a Windows PC), Launchy is a fantastic utility. Just make sure you get v1.25 since v2.0 is extremely bloated and slow.

Re:keyboard is king

[dargaud]

Which is exactly why I could never stand the Macs: most of the time there is no keyboard shortcut for even the most basic actions.

Re:keyboard is king

[666999]

even the most basic actions

like what?

Re:keyboard is king

[Spatial]

Apparently not easy or fast enough to encourage the use of your shift key.

Re:keyboard is king

[bob.appleyard]

Works for me on f3b4. I had to disable compatibility checking, of course.

Umm...

[Facegarden]

Damn, 3 comments and no one mentioned anything about the phrase "vertical stroking motion". I'm impressed. I kinda wanted to wait and see how long it would be before someone else mentioned it, but it've screwed that up now... -Taylor

Re:Umm...

[Concerned Onlooker]

I think the reason no one mentioned anything is because the article mentions a "two-fingered vertical stroking motion," which is an embarrassingly tiny grasp. On the, uh, trackpad.

Dell Latitude XT

[greenlead]

I thought the Dell Latitude XT supported multi-touch?

Re:Dell Latitude XT

[Facegarden]

I thought the Dell Latitude XT supported multi-touch? It does, but last i heard the actual drivers that did anything interesting weren't ready yet, so it's possible that the Eee PC is just the first multitouch XP laptop that actually does something useful with multitouch. And this is all ignoring the fact that XP can be installed on a macbook air, because really, since it doesn't come with it, it kinda doesn't count in this sense. And again, the drivers probably aren't there. -Taylor

Re:Dell Latitude XT

[Talchas]

In any case much of it is a driver issue - the synaptics touchpad drivers for windows suck and have very few features, but the same touchpad under linux has things like two-finger scroll. I suspect someone who wanted to hack on the drivers could make pinching and other gestures visible to user apps.

Re:Pinching zooms in

[Anonymous Coward]

The author is probably an idiot who thinks "zooming in" is making a picture smaller. Nobody with the interest to implement a multi-touch interface could possibly make something so contrary in the mapping of physical motion to onscreen effect.

Linux Multitouch?

[lhaeh]

The best Linux development I know of for multitouch seems to be MPX. It would be nice to know if there is something more common, like something GTK apps can use.

Re:Linux Multitouch?

[archkittens]

best we can hope for is that someone read simon's words of hope: http://federkiel.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/gtk-30-getting-serious/

Re:Linux Multitouch?

[qbast]

So main points for GTK3 development are: theming, canvas, animations, introspection and OS integration. Just fork Qt4, rename it to GTK3 and you can have all this even today. With great documentation as a bonus.

Re:Linux Multitouch?

[TheRaven64]

I've not looked at MPX, but the correct way of implementing multitouch gesture support in X would be to add it as another (virtual) axis on the input device, just as is done with scroll wheels. Your apps would see two axes for moving, two for scrolling, one for zooming and one for rotating, giving 6 axes in total. X already supports six axis input devices and it's much easier to add virtual ones with the new input code (in 7.4, I think, not sure if it made it into 7.3). Then the support your toolkit needs to provide is minimal - as long as it lets you track mouse movements you can use it.

Oh, and the claim on the MPX site that it's the first implementation of a multi-pointer windowing system is just plain nonsense - I used a multi-pointer, multi-monitor, version of Windows 3.1 back in 1992.

Re:Linux Multitouch?

[anss123]

Oh, and the claim on the MPX site that it's the first implementation of a multi-pointer windowing system is just plain nonsense - I used a multi-pointer, multi-monitor, version of Windows 3.1 back in 1992. That must have cost an arm or perhaps a leg.

Re:Linux Multitouch?

[TheRaven64]

It did. It ran the control software for, as I recall, a glass toughening plant. I played with it while it was still in testing. The had it configured to use about a dozen cursors, but only one mouse was connected so (for debugging) you could jump between cursors by right-clicking.

Was it the first?

[madsenj37]

Was it the first or the first non-apple branded laptop, since apples now run windows? I have not tried multitouch on a macbook air, so I am curious.

Re:Was it the first?

[Facegarden]

I think they mean first commercial laptop SOLD with XP installed... and even then, i don't think generic drivers exist, so i would bet the macbook air with XP installed wouldn't actually take advantage of the multitouch. -Taylor

Re:Was it the first?

[markdavis]

What an irrelevant statement! My Linux laptop runs MS-Windows just as easily with VirtualBox. And VirtualBox is both free AND open source (AND pre-integrated in my Linux distro).

A more interesting question or statement would have been to ask if MS-Windows running in a virtual machine under Mac-OS can use the multitouch pad on the Apple laptop.

Despite the lack of mention in the article mentioned, Linux does make use of the multitouch on the EEE too. I think that is far more newsworthy.

vertical stroking motion?

[julesh]

a two-finger vertical stroking motion allows you to scroll up and down through documents

I had an acer laptop about 4 or 5 years ago that supported a similar gesture for scrolling. This is nothing new. The rest of it, perhaps, but scrolling gestures have been around a while...

Re:vertical stroking motion?

[gwbennett]

But this senses that you are using two fingers rather than one and scrolls no matter where you touch on the pad. I'm inclined to assume you're referring to a set area on the (usually right) side of the touchpad that scrolls with one finger used.

Re:vertical stroking motion?

[yomegaman]

Nope, mine does two-finger scroll anywhere on the pad also, and it's old. That's not new at all.

Re:vertical stroking motion?

[Your.Master]

I've got that, but my MSI also does middle clicks with two-finger taps in the main area, and horizonal scroll with right-side scroll and another finger on the pad. It's about a year old, slightly older than the iPhone release, running Vista. I've been wondering about it. Does it not count as multi-touch this way?

Re:vertical stroking motion?

[iscariota]

The strange aspect of two-finger scrolling is that PC laptops that support it are still very few although the feature is really useful. The strangest thing about it is that although it has been around for a few years now, the PC world seems to ignore it. I'm curious to see if it will become an obvious thing in the future.

Re:vertical stroking motion?

[ceoyoyo]

Macs have had it for four or five years too. My old Powerbook does it. Annoyingly, it doesn't do two finger tap for a right click.

OT: loading Linux/dual boot

[reiisi]

The two-fingered scroll may be interesting, but what I want to know is whether anyone has bought the XP version and loaded, say, Ubuntu or Fedora on it, either single- or dual-boot.

When I asked at the Yodobashi Camera and Sofmap in Umeda, I was told that no stores in Japan are carrying the Linux version of any of the eeePCs.

Re:OT: loading Linux/dual boot

[johnw]

The two-fingered scroll may be interesting, but what I want to know is whether anyone has bought the XP version and loaded, say, Ubuntu or Fedora on it, either single- or dual-boot. What would be the point in that? You get less storage and pay for an unwanted copy of XP.

I've no doubt you could - there are plenty of instructions on the web for installing, say, Debian on an eeePC.

Re:OT: loading Linux/dual boot

[ddrichardson]

What would be the point in that?

I think the GP explained the point:

When I asked at the Yodobashi Camera and Sofmap in Umeda, I was told that no stores in Japan are carrying the Linux version of any of the eeePCs.

If he can't get it with Linux pre-installed then short of importing from outside Japan how is he to get one with Linux without bu ying an XP one(I'm assuming a Japanese version has special keyboard layout and some kind of IME)?

Terminology

[PingPongBoy]

Multi-Touch is kind of unimaginative, when you consider the alternative: Fondle.

Now consider a computer that responds to touch all over. The intent of the user tends to be a bit vague however.

Re:Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

Now consider a computer that responds to touch all over. The intent of the user tends to be a bit vague however. Chi?

Re:Terminology

[ceoyoyo]

You mean like this?

Fondle, smack, close enough, right?

Re:Pinching zooms in

[iminplaya]

Actually, maybe not. If you think of it as pinching or stretching the "frame", it doesn't sound so illogical. Especially if it shows the frame on the screen until you let go. Then, moving both fingers together could move the frame. I think some programs operate in that fashion.

Two-finger scroll older than MacBook Air

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, last time I tried (approx. 5 seconds ago) I could do two-finger scrolling on my MacBook. And if I'm not mistaken, I could do it on my old iBook too. That particular future has existed on Apple laptops for a few years already...

biased bullshit

[nguy]

By using Windows XP, users can sidestep many of the software and hardware compatibility issues that plague the Linux version. We've encountered numerous devices that don't work with a Linux Eee because of driver issues, including some USB disc drives, printers and TV tuners. You simply don't get these problems with a Windows-equipped Eee PC 900.

That's biased bullshit. There are plenty of problems trying to get hardware to work on a regular Windows XP machine, and it only gets worse on an Eee PC. Imagine first time it asks you to insert the driver CD, displays its 800x800 configuration dialog, or requires "Windows Vista or better".

Re:biased bullshit

[somenickname]

I was surprised to read that as well. If anything I'd think that the linux version would have better support for printers/TV tuners (I'm not even sure what they mean by USB disc drives because it doesn't even make sense), assuming the kernel comes with a diverse set of modules, normally you just plug in a USB device on linux, wait a second and the device is configured and working. There is no surfing the net for drivers or looking for lost install disks that will then install some poorly thought out proprietary interface to use the hardware which is inevitably bound to look like shit on such a small screen.

Admittedly, with linux it either works with no effort at all or you are fucked but, any non-nerd is likely to have technology that lags behind the cutting edge enough that "just plugging it in" is likely to be a much smoother experience on linux.

Re:biased bullshit

[ddrichardson]

While I agree with the general point - I don't think you've used many USB TV tuners under Linux and also the article writer hasn't mentioned the nature of most Windows drivers either. They are enormously popular (in the UK at least) but many of the most popular (read cheap) tuners are a pain in the arse to get to run under Linux, locating firmware, decent TV software and so on.

I wouldn't say this is the fault of Linux in general, because many of these devices have terrible drivers - try getting some of the cheap ones to work with Windows Media Centre and you can't because they lack BDA drivers.

But the point remains - being able to use a device this small as a handy little TV is a popular application and for the non-technical user, if it doesn't work then right or wrong they will blame Linux.

Re:biased bullshit

[RiotingPacifist]

They are enormously popular (in the UK at least) but many of the most popular (read cheap) tuners are a pain in the arse to get to run under Linux, locating firmware Ive used a standard usb-Dell one and a crappy one internal one, perhaps they weren't completely cheap tho, it might of required installing some drivers, but I doubt it as id only been using Linux for a few months when I 1st tried it.

decent TV software and so on. Kaffine does a fairly good job, I think VLC supports V4L too, mythTV if you want something more dedicated, there are plenty of good projects for TV in linux. I dont think any other OS is capable of recording multiple channels off one tuner either, but things may have changed since i last tried.

Re:biased bullshit

[Nimey]

I've had my share of GNOME and KDE configuration boxes that were far too large for the screen & didn't have scrollbars.

Shitty programmers are a universal phenomenon.

Re:biased bullshit

[cbhacking]

Erm... what hardware actually requires a driver CD anymore? I haven't seen one in about 3 years. Even back then, it was standard that the CD was optional - it might enable some additional functionality (though it was more likely to simply eat system resources for no real advantage) but everything needed was either built into Windows or downloaded automatically. These days, ANY driver (and the software to use any special features) is available online, in my experience.

Anything that requires Vista hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of running on Linux either (at this point). Of course, thus far damn little hardware actually requires Vista anyhow. At the driver level, XP and Vista are generally compatible, at least insofar as most XP drivers working fine on Vista (and yes, I've used it for 2+ years across a wide variety of hardware). Special cases like the developer intentionally crippling the driver if it detects a particular OS don't count.

SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[1 a bee]

Rather than this windows XP gimmick (which according to the article, they had to sacrifice hardware to keep price parity with the Linux version), I would have liked to have seen the Eee series' SSDs be easy to attach and detach. Then you could conceivably run a given operating environment on multiple Eee platforms. I use a portable OS on a USB called FaunOS. The logic of centralizing my operating environment on a single detachable device has sunk in for me. Now with the Eee PCs, I think it would be cool if Asus packaged a detachable SSD so that you could unplug it from the Eee in the kitchen, and plug it back in to the Eee in the bedroom. Best of all, each of my kids could have their own SSD, so that we wouldn't muck around with each other's OS's. I could probably pull this off with FaunOS [Google search], but I think it would have been much cooler if I could use the Eee's SSD like I'm using the USB.

--
the glass is half broken

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[am 2k]

I think it would be cool if Asus packaged a detachable SSD so that you could unplug it from the Eee in the kitchen, and plug it back in to the Eee in the bedroom.

I think you're missing the point of an ultra-portable subnotebook.

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[ddrichardson]

I think you're missing the point of an ultra-portable subnotebook.

Perhaps he is but it would be cool to have your OS and all your work in a removeable drive that you can transfer between devices easily. Oh wait - you already can with USB disks and Damn Small Linux or FaunOS or whatever.

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[piggydoggy]

It comes with an SD card slot for your removable storage needs.

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[TheRaven64]

Not really. You could use the same disk in another machine that was less portable (something on your desk with a nice big screen, for example) and just pop it in the EeePC when you wanted to leave the desk.

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[RiotingPacifist]

Surely you can do that anyway? or does bios + grub not support SSD. besides imaging how many users would forget to put the SSD in and then think the EEE is broken, Or how many times in rush people would pop out your SSD without fully shutingdown your desktop and fsck you EEE,
or the fact that if you want to use your EEEs OS outside of the EEE you would need to ship a whole lot more drivers and then have no space left for files

Re:SSD ought to be detachable / pluggable

[1 a bee]

Compared to USB flash memory keys, the write performance of the SSD you get in Eee, I understand, is much faster. Since you already pay for this expensive component when you buy an Eee, I thought it would have been nice if it were detachable: as fast as they are, FaunOS, DSL, or Puppy, still run a lot faster on an SSD, I imagine, than on a common flash memory key. My point was that if the SSD were detachable, an Eee would be an even greater value proposition--both because you can reuse the SSD, and because it also happens to bring value to each Eee platform.

--
Since when when you want to use something other than the way intended, are you missing the point?

Linux on eee for teh win

[thetoadwarrior]

I'd still rather have the Linux version with an extra 8 gig of memory.

Re:Linux on eee for teh win

[Petrushka]

An extra 8 GB of storage is nice. Even better, though, would be double the battery life, which is the eee's main weakness (2.5 hours in realistic scenarios, without using wireless, and if you're careful).

Re:Linux on eee for teh win

[thetoadwarrior]

That is true but I can't afford an IBM X300 at the moment and it'll last me long enough for my bus ride so I'll be purchasing it.

Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

I hope that this isn't considered flamebait but, well, maybe I am getting old. Is it just me or is this a pretty pointless feature that is likely to sell products or increase the appeal of the product but unlikely to get a damned bit of use in the real world? Of the many units that are likely to sell I have to wonder about the percentage that will actually take advantage of that feature. Adding more features just to increase appeal is akin to bloating a perfectly good application with crap it doesn't actually need.

RANT: Slightly off topic but along the same lines... How many times have we seen and used a great product that, over the years, turned to shite because the developers just kept adding more and more crap to it. I want my phone to make phone calls. I want my antivirus to protect me from viruses, I want my firewall to keep the badguys out and the information in, I want my operating system to be an operating system and not a media player, I want my word processing to be done in a dedicated processor, I don't need an RSS reader in my browser, and I sure as hell don't want my operating system to think that it is also in charge of my security. All these additional "features" just create additional points of potential failure and all of them make troubleshooting more difficult because of these additional failure points. I don't mind increased complexity when there is a measurable benefit for more than the minority of users.

There... Sorry but I figured I'd get that off my chest while I was on the subject. I really don't see the benefit, for me personally, other than the coolness factor and I'm sitting here trying to think of who I know that would actually make use of this and I'm not really able to think of anybody that would get any great value or frequently use this. I'm absolutely positive that there are greater potential features that would hold more value to me personally than this.

Take it as a grain of salt I suppose but, well, that's my opinion.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[AndGodSed]

Weeelll... I bet people who work with graphics applications could use this. But then again I don't see the Asus EEE being powerful enough to be any real use in the graphic application arena.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[Zorque]

To me it sounds like another natural extension of the GUI, along with voice controls. For now pinching pictures and whatnot is a little gimmicky, but it's a great way to get a foot in the door for the eventual rise of a much more comfortable and human computing platform.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

Seems too kludgey for graphics work in my opinion but my graphics skills are really limited. Typically I see graphics folks working with a tablet and stylus and/or a mouse. This doesn't mean (I read the other response and will respond in kind to that one as well) that this will not change in the future but it seems, to me, to be just wasting resources that could have been better used and maybe an attempt to emulate the various Apple products. I'm thinking I'm just old. Functionality is more important to me when compared with trendy. I do see your point in it being capable of being functional for some of the people but if it is a minority of specialist work would not a specific device be better? I guess it boils down to my not using a hammer to cut wood, I use the proper tool for the job. I don't see any value being added with this and if it doesn't add value I fail to see the point.

I hope that this doesn't come off as being argumentative as it is really me striving to understand.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

Thank you for your feedback. (Feel free to see my response to the other person who responded for a tad bit more.) I really do appreciate your taking the time to explain.

It begs, then, to be asked... It isn't so much that I don't see a value in this feature it is that I can't find the value in this feature, at this time, on this type of device. The other person who responded brought up graphics work which made me think. Currently, in today's environment, I'm not seeing this as a value for graphic artists but I am not a graphics guru so I can't really offer much of an opinion. However, paired with your insight, I see the potential for this to be of value in the future though I don't expect that this is the time nor the device where such is best suited.

Again, please don't think that this is me attempting to create a conflict. This is me attempting to understand because I don't follow the logic of the designers and I don't see the value in this feature. *shrugs* Maybe I just don't get it? This wouldn't be the first time and surely won't be the last. I don't expect that I would personally (or anyone would) find value in every single feature but this seems to me as if it would help so few people that it is just plain waste at this time and on this device.

The idea of extending the GUI... I risk meandering off-topic but... I'd be eager to see that happen. The potential to reach into a holographic image (I'm thinking disrupting light/sensors) to move things in 3D format, to turn information by moving my hands, to reach in deeper into an article and not need to search to find my information... *sighs* The only thing better than that would be a full body virtual reality suit. ;) Then I wouldn't even need women but I digress.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[TheRaven64]

Please try using a laptop with a multitouch scroll pad for a bit. After you get used to being able to scroll in two dimensions by just rotating your wrist (to move to your hand to the trackpad) put down two fingers, and slide them over the pad in the direction you want to move, everything else just seems clunky. The best UI features are the ones that you only notice when they aren't there, and this is definitely in this category.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

Have you a specific model you would suggest? I'm actually, ironically, in the market for a new laptop and have actually been awake all night going through looking at various models online before taking a trip into the city to check them out physically. If you've a specific model then I'll certainly take a look at it if I can find it. I'm not sure what the Mac's include and if they'll work with Windows but the new Mac laptop really looks sexy with some fantastic specs so, well, I haven't used a Mac since the Apple IIe for any length of time so maybe it's time to take another peek.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[jmpeax]

I want my phone to make phone calls. Does your phone not make phone calls? Every modern mobile phone I've used, even advanced models and smartphones, allow users to make phone calls by simply dialling a number and pressing a "Call" button. This feature always remains simple - I can't see why you would have a problem with it.

I want my firewall to keep the badguys out and the information in What firewall are you using? Standard, home router firewalls are really easy to configure, and so is the Windows firewall, for that matter. On Linux, it's simple with an iptables-based firewall (see netfilter).

I want my word processing to be done in a dedicated processor As opposed to what? A software package on a PC? Apart from cost, don't you think that would come at the expense of usability and functionality?

I don't need an RSS reader in my browser I really don't understand why you would have a problem with this. You don't want to use your browser's RSS functionality, don't use it. There's no loss to you, but great benefit to the many that do want the feature.

I sure as hell don't want my operating system to think that it is also in charge of my security Your operating system is in the best position to be in charge of your security. It is responsible for providing access to your computer - it needs to also be responsible for limiting access to it.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[Nitemare14]

I can scroll with one finger; it's called arrow keys. I've been using nothing but the down arrow to scroll down this page. Also, I've seen laptops with trackpads that have a small area to the edge that does nothing but scroll by touch (though only vertical scrolling).

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

I see you missed the point (it looks like) so...

Just phone calls. Don't need the 'net, email, text messages, MP3 player, etc... Just a phone. (I could do with a remote control in it though.) Outpost is my firewall. I'm seldom at home and behind a router. (Not the suite, just the firewall.)

I don't want/need bloat (so I do a custom install with OpenOffice) for my word processing needs. Just spellcheck and save in an open format. Don't go suggesting grammar, don't go installing bloat.

My statement is that I don't need one. It's just an annoying distraction. Save the space, make it an option.

No, the best to be in charge of my security is me. I am responsible for limiting access and ensuring it remains malware free. I get help with various tools but those are just tools, I am ultimately in charge, a task for which I am reasonably well suited.

As for the phone that'd be rather specific (I guess there was a phone that had one) to me. I spend a lot of time in hotels around the country. I don't expect that to be something in the typical phone and would be willing to pay a premium for that feature.

But, seeing as you seem eager to participate I'll ask... What, in your opinion, is the value for the multi-touch feature on this product? Do you use it? Does it help you get your work done? The computer appears to be aimed at someone like me - someone who is constantly in transit. With 12 GB of storage I'd rather save any trivial space for useful functions and minimize the potential points of failure because repairs are much more difficult when one only has a couple of suitcases and a car full of stuff.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[TheRaven64]

Scrolling with the arrow keys is binary. You scroll a fixed amount for every press. With the this, I can scroll any amount between one pixel and about a page depending on how far I move my mouse. I can also scroll diagonally, which is really useful in large images (or on stupid web pages that don't scale down to the width of my browser).

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[Nitemare14]

But in the years and years that I've used arrow keys to scroll, I've never once thought "Damn! If only I could scroll only one pixel at a time rather than this still-small fixed amount!" I can see where some people would like it, but to me, it's nothing special.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[TheRaven64]

That's exactly my point. Try using a trackpad that supports two-finger scrolling, and then go back to using the arrow keys. Like most good UI improvements, you don't notice how much better it is until you stop using it. Mind you, I find it hard to believe that you've never wanted to scroll down one slashdot post (i.e. a size somewhere between one pixel and one screenful) with a single gesture. The point isn't that you can scroll one pixel (although that is occasionally useful when doing graphical work), it's that you can scroll anywhere between one pixel and one screen with approximately the same amount of effort.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[Nitemare14]

Usually the arrow keys work fine for me for scrolling larger amounts, because I can just hold the key down until it gets to where I want to stop. It seems to me that using arrow keys to scroll is simpler because you just push a button with no other movement involved. I have a mouse with a scroll wheel and I use the arrow keys to scroll, all because it's less work to me.
If I could use that scrolling on my pocketpc's touchscreen though, I would certainly use it.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[foniksonik]

When it's done well, extra features do add to the value of a product.

I for one can not imagine using any phone with more features than making calls other than my iPhone.

I've tried out all my coworkers phones, (LG, TREO, PALM, SideKick, Blackberry) and they pale in comparison.... I wouldn't want to use them... keyboards buttons are too small, they require a stylus, touch input is sketchy, screen is too small, sound is poor quality, etc. etc.

That's why I held on to my Sony/Ericsson T610 for ~6 years. It had a bright color display, big keys, easy UI for setting preferences, good input keys/joystick, good sound quality... but I only used it to make and receive phone calls.

The iPhone does all the features right though. Video is awesome, the iTunes implementation just works for music, calendaring kicks the ass of any other phone I've seen, email rocks, web browsing - well you've seen it somewhere.. can't beat it on a mobile device, maps, voicemail, text messaging - all gorgeous and easy to use.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[jmpeax]

No, the best to be in charge of my security is me. I am responsible for limiting access and ensuring it remains malware free. The software you're using is designed for people who aren't in a position to manage their system's security. If you feel so strongly, stop using Windows, and instead of moaning about it, I recommend you take action: get a stripped down version of Linux and customise it to suit your needs.

What, in your opinion, is the value for the multi-touch feature on this product? Simple: mouse-based scrolling and zooming is a pain in the arse on laptops. The designated scroll area often either misinterprets scroll gestures as normal mouse movements, or ignores them entirely. This has lead me to use an external mouse with my laptop, and that's an inconvenience I could do without when I'm working on a plane, or even worse, a crowded train. The multi-touch features will make using the mousepad for scrolling and zooming much easier, eliminating the need for extra peripherals for a device that is inherently portable.

I suppose the major problem with your complaints are that they are centred around the fact that things aren't the way you want them: you don't want an MP3 player in your phone, but you'd like a remote control; you don't want a grammar check, but you want a spell check; you want some level of security software, but not too much. These terms are all relative, and different users will have different ideas of what they need (think of the teenager who wants to listen to music and text their friends, the foreign student who finds the grammar check helpful, the novice user who needs to be told when a file may be dangerous). Most people are happy to have something that has more features than they use: those who feel strongly about it customise their software and hardware accordingly. If you don't want to/can't do this, then you have to accept that you are at the behest of market forces that do not favour your demographic. Mobile phones are designed for the technophilic younger generations; modern, mass-market operating systems are designed for the average, highly non-technical user.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[KGIII]

Interesting response, thanks. Just so you know, I use Ubuntu, Windows, and CentOS runs my servers. The only thing I don't generally have a use for is a Mac. In the meantime I'll think about your response(s) and may respond later. Part of my problem may be that I still think of a computer as a tool. I've used a computer as a toy but generally it is a tool to me and only a tool. Meh, food for my own thought I suppose. Thanks aagain.

Re:Maybe I'm Getting Old?

[Zorque]

I agree, I'm not really sure why they decided the EEE would be a good testing ground for multi-touch on a PC. It seems like kind of a strange decision, considering that the EEE is mostly meant to be a cheap word-processing and internet-browsing machine. They did actually just come out with a really interesting 3D input device, though it's done with arms and actuators rather than light-sensing capabilities. It's called the Novint Falcon (this is a demo showing off both the 3D and haptic capabilities) and I want one really badly.

Thanks

[JamesRose]

But I still haven't got bored of my keyboard nipple yet ;)

Re:Thanks

[SiriusStarr]

Hear hear. Trackpoints are far faster and more accurate than touch pads and, in my limited experience, far less likely to cause fatigue/strain. I love my Thinkpad.

Re:Thanks

[grm_wnr]

If someone implements "pinching" on a trackpoint, that will add a completely new layer to the ubiquitous nipple jokes.

Re:Thanks

[nri]

how does a nipple scroll ?
I have a Dell 810, so got a trackpad and a nipple
on the rhs of the track pad I can move top to bottom and have the page scroll
can't do that with the nipple as far as I can tell. please enlighten me...

fyi, xorg.conf is

Section "ServerLayout"
                Identifier "Default Layout"
                Screen 0 "aticonfig-Screen[0]" 0 0
                InputDevice "Generic Keyboard"
                InputDevice "Configured Mouse"
                InputDevice "Synaptics Touchpad"
EndSection ......

Section "InputDevice"
                Identifier "Configured Mouse"
                Driver "mouse"
                Option "CorePointer"
                Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
                Option "Protocol" "ExplorerPS/2"
                Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
                Option "Emulate3Buttons" "true"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
                Identifier "Synaptics Touchpad"
                Driver "synaptics"
                Option "SendCoreEvents" "true"
                Option "Device" "/dev/psaux"
                Option "Protocol" "auto-dev"
                Option "HorizScrollDelta" "0"
                Option "MinSpeed" "0.7"
                Option "MaxSpeed" "3"
                Option "AccelFactor" "0.025"
                Option "VertScrollDelta" "100"
                Option "SHMConfig" "on"
EndSection

thanks in advance for your response :-)

Re:Thanks

[SiriusStarr]

Do you have a middle mouse button, i.e. three buttons below your trackpoint? That's what my computer has and this works for me (Fedora 8 on a Thinkpad T61):

Section "InputDevice"
        Identifier "ConfiguredMouse"
        Driver "mouse"
        Option "CorePointer"
        Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
        Option "Protocol" "ExplorerPS/2"
        Option "Emulate3Buttons" "on"
        Option "Emulate3TimeOut" "50"
        Option "EmulateWheel" "on"
        Option "EmulateWheelTimeOut" "200"
        Option "EmulateWheelButton" "2"
        Option "YAxisMapping" "4 5"
        Option "XAxisMapping" "6 7"
        Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
EndSection

This works for my touchpad, my trackpoint, and any external mouse I plug into the system.

If you only have two, can't you make clicking both a third button click, e.g. you could press both buttons then scroll? I'm not an X11 guru by any means, though.

Re:Thanks

[nri]

yeah I got two above the touchpad and two below. press the both at the same time for middle button.
What I was asking is how does a trackpoint (nipple) scroll. It can't, you have to press a button and hold it and move the trackpoint.
your comment implied scrolling with a trackpoint, unless I read it wrong. Other than that everything is perfect for touchpad, trackpad and usb mouse.

btw, this is a really cool for accessing the touchpad controls.

# apt-cache search synaptics
qsynaptics - A QT application to configure Synaptic TouchPad
ksynaptics - A KDE application to configure Synaptics TouchPad

Also a command line client synclient is good.

$ synclient -l
Parameter settings:
        LeftEdge = 120
        RightEdge = 830
        TopEdge = 120
        BottomEdge = 630
        FingerLow = 14
        FingerHigh = 15
        MaxTapTime = 180
        MaxTapMove = 110
        MaxDoubleTapTime = 180
        ClickTime = 100
        FastTaps = 0
        EmulateMidButtonTime = 75
        VertScrollDelta = 100
        HorizScrollDelta = 0
        MinSpeed = 0.7
        MaxSpeed = 3
        AccelFactor = 0.025
        EdgeMotionMinZ = 30
        EdgeMotionMaxZ = 160
        EdgeMotionMinSpeed = 200
        EdgeMotionMaxSpeed = 200
        EdgeMotionUseAlways = 0
        UpDownScrolling = 1
        LeftRightScrolling = 1
        UpDownRepeat = 1
        LeftRightRepeat = 1
        ScrollButtonRepeat = 100
        TouchpadOff = 0
        GuestMouseOff = 0
        LockedDrags = 0
        RTCornerButton = 2
        RBCornerButton = 3
        LTCornerButton = 0
        LBCornerButton = 0
        TapButton1 = 1
        TapButton2 = 2
        TapButton3 = 3
        CircularScrolling = 0
        CircScrollDelta = 0.1
        CircScrollTrigger = 0
        CircularPad = 0
        PalmDetect = 1
        PalmMinWidth = 10
        PalmMinZ = 200
        CoastingSpeed = 0

And trackpoints would be perfect...

[sznupi]

...considering the size of Asus Eee and other OLPC offshots.

Yes, generally I prefer trackpoints to the point that I don't need touchpad in a laptop...but I can use the latter if it's reasonably good and thje only option in a given laptop. But in those minilaptops touchpads are bordering on usuable due to small size... :/ (especially in Via nanobook)

Zoom in by pinching?

[thevil]

A pinching motion lets you zoom in on images, stretching lets you zoom out Ok, now that's just plain wrong. If you do it that way the user looses the "touch"-feeling with the image and its just another wierd gui-gizmo.

Compare this to the way it works for example on the Apple iPhone.

I'll stick with a mouse.

[ChunderDownunder]

IMHO Trackpads and 'nipples' suffice for an emergency when one leave one's USB mouse at home but...

For me the interaction just plain sucks, particularly when selecting text or drag and drop.

Workaholics on public transport trying to cram an extra 20 minutes into their day, and I see them plugging numbers into excel, may see some benefit in such input mechanisms.

If I had to pick an ultra-portable, I'd ditch the conventional hinged keyboard altogether. 1 docking station keyboard and mouse for work, 1 for home. Something like this. Perfect for reading PDFs on the train or on the couch.

Re:I'll stick with a mouse.

[g4b]

actually i got very used to the nipple, because if you write, its just some centimeters away.

I even use the nipple, if my mouse is with me. e.g. to move away the mouse cursor from text, or to touch the side of the screen with the mouse to have some menus popping out, or mostly, to position my mouse into the text to write somewhere else, because its easier, when you dont have to stop writing just because of that, aand the nipple is very good for fast mouse actions.

i wouldn't say the nipple is useless. however, it lacks the scrollwheel and the superior finetuning of a mouse, that's why a mouse is a must.

i dont like touchpads however, because i touch them when i am writing or clicking accidently on them... which is annoying if i just "drag and drop" files around while i am only supposed to move the mouse. I am one, who will never get used to touchpads i think.

Re:I'll stick with a mouse.

[jbengt]

"IMHO Trackpads and 'nipples' suffice for an emergency when one leave one's USB mouse at home but..."

IMHO, USB mouses are useless on the train.

Re:I'll stick with a mouse.

[ChunderDownunder]

Hence my comment about workaholics. :) I can't imagine typing would be much fun either.

Purely a subjective opinion but I find it difficult enough reading a paperback at times with people crowding me with newspapers, body odor, excessively loud music and personal phone conversations broadcast the length of the carriage.

Re:Pinching zooms in

[amRadioHed]

Why would someone think of pinching or stretching some imaginary frame when they really want to pinch or stretch the image on screen? Sure it's possible to rationalize just about any gesture but that doesn't make it sensible.

1st Linux Laptop to support Multitouch

[markdavis]

Wouldn't the article be just as accurate to say it is the first commercially sold Linux laptop to support multitouch? I think it is interesting that such technology would first show up in something (non-Apple) primarily designed to run Linux, not MS-Windows.

Fanbois never see the flaws

[yelvington]

These discussions are chronically unproductive because they attract postings from True Believers who aren't capable of seeing the flaws in their Chosen Products and have no significant, current real-world experience with the alternatives.

The Macintosh UI is a rat's nest of bad design decisions and inconsistencies.

So is the Windows UI, and so are the several Linux desktops.

They all suck. Get used to it.

I use a high-end Powerbook as my primary work tool every single day. I have a couple of XP machines sitting around the house (old desktop, wife's Vaio laptop), have run Linux since kernel 0.96 or so, have a Linux-powered Nokia 800 in my pocket, and have installed Ubuntu on the computers of my kids and their grandmothers. (Vista has been banned from my presence.)

All of them, including the Macintosh, fall apart under scrutiny when it comes to UI. (Why is the menu bar on a DIFFERENT MONITOR THAN THE ONE I AM USING? This is not single-tasking 1984! Why do I drag something to the trash can when I don't want to delete it? And what idiot actually thinks Finder is a decent way to launch applications? And why is it so slow? And, and, and....)

And when it comes to hardware, the general rule on the Mac is that it Just Works only if you buy pricey Apple-branded add-ons.

Anything else is a complete crap shoot. Odds of getting my USB hard drive to work on a Mac are slim and none, yet it Just Works with every Linux system I've tried. Without touching configuration files (I don't even know where they are any more).

On balance I like my Powerbook a lot more than the dead Windows Compaq it replaced, and it's infinitely more secure. But there are all sorts of Linux features it doesn't have, such as the very slick virtual filesystem that lets me mount my webserver folders via ssh/sftp, and I miss the vast quantities of software for Linux. And, because I have to work with Exchange, I'm really frustrated with the Mac's calendaring. So it's entirely possible that when my Mac dies, the replacement will be a Linux laptop, especially now that the Eee has the multitouch pad.

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[El Icaro]

(Why is the menu bar on a DIFFERENT MONITOR THAN THE ONE I AM USING? This is not single-tasking 1984! Why do I drag something to the trash can when I don't want to delete it? And what idiot actually thinks Finder is a decent way to launch applications? And why is it so slow? And, and, and....)

And when it comes to hardware, the general rule on the Mac is that it Just Works only if you buy pricey Apple-branded add-ons.

Anything else is a complete crap shoot. Odds of getting my USB hard drive to work on a Mac are slim and none, yet it Just Works with every Linux system I've tried. Without touching configuration files (I don't even know where they are any more).

Go into System Preferences, then Displays, then click on the tab with the two screens. Drag the menu bar to the one you want, it'll turn into the main screen.

You drag files *and* volumes into the trash because you want to "get rid of them" (it even turns into an eject button to make he transition easier). It's kind of an abstact concept (not to mention these wacky 'windows' and 'icons' and 'buttons'... crazy kids), but it works. Finder is fast enough for me, I wish spotlight was a bit quicker though.

All USB drives (six, for all my pirated stuff) work perfectly for me, except one I formatted with ext2, but that was just for linux. Never installed any drivers except a scanner app that came with my printer. All my windows hardware (external, admittedly, it's a laptop after all) works perfectly fine.

Don't say you're system neutral when you're clearly a linux fanboy. Yes, I'm an apple fanboy.

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[Bert64]

You can get sshfs for mac, google for macfuse...

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[smallfries]

Some interesting comments. I've used linux for years but recently switched to a mac. Lots of reasons provoked it but the main issue was that I wanted laptop with decent battery life and powersaving that ran some variant of unix. After looking around the macbook-pro worked out cheaper than any similar spec machine (mainly because I get a hefty academic discount and finding something as pokey as the nvidia mobile was difficult).

From the UI perspective I loved it instantly. Some things are just designed right from the ground up, after fighting modal dialog boxes in windows/linux for years I find nonmodal preferences etc a breath of fresh air. Other things confused the crap out of me - the idea that the mac is magically more "usuable" is a nice ideal, but it is as hit and miss as other platforms. Single application instances work for some type of applications, but for other applications (or just processes) I do want to spawn multiple copies (i.e mplayer).

You can get the virtual filesystems that you want as macfuse works pretty well and I use it to mount remote ssh filesystems. Given the focus of the article I've got to say that multitouch scrolling is the best UI improvement that I've seen since the scrollwheel. It is so natural and intuitive. I didn't get the refresh of the macbook-pro with the other multi-touch gestures but I think that I got the one that I would use day in and out. Zoom looks useful but a little gimmicky.

I've suprised that a USB hard drive wouldn't work. Are they eve configurable? Most just expose a FAT filesystem through a standard interface when you plug them in. They even work on my linux desktop at work... :) And as for the idea that everthing just magically works... it only took two system updates for Apple to get the bloody keyboard working properly under Leopard. Even mickysoft can do better than that...

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[yelvington]

Manually relocating the menu bar from one monitor to another does not fix the problem. I don't WANT a "main screen." On a multiscreen, multitasking system where I might very well have 18 apps running at the same time, the damned menu bar should be with the application I'm using at the moment, and the only reason it's not part of the application on the Mac is a poor 1980s design decision made permanent by arrogance. And that's the problem: The Mac UI engineers are fanbois of their own work, incapable of seeing its flaws.

I could rant about Linux, too, but most of my ire would be focused on wifi hardware engineers who change chipsets and designs without changing hardware designations.

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[mr_matticus]

What you see as a flaw, others view as a functional design.

The menu bar is on the main screen because you don't have to go hunting for it. It's called consistency and persistence of function. No matter how many monitors you're using or which display your cursor is on, the menu bar is always, always, always on Display 0 at the top.

Your complaint is a modified version of "Why isn't the menubar attached to the window I'm using?" and Apple UI designers have answered it time after time. They recognize the complaint from a section of the userbase, but as usual the true stroke of arrogance is with the detractor believing that their interpretation is the only way. Yes, Apple designers are guilty of the same, but the difference is that it's their product.

You are always welcome to switch to a more flexible OS if that's a higher priority to you. But each configuration option creating a UI variable is one more step away from global usability. That's why Linux will likely never be considered easy to use. It is wildly inconsistent in every aspect, and that's perfectly fine, because it caters to an audience that wants it that way. But true ease of use requires someone to be decisive and authoritative. Jobs and crew are definitely the people for that.

Re:Fanbois never see the flaws

[rinoid]

God I can't believe this panoply of nose wiping myopic meanderings.

"Apple PR distortion"
I'm so blinded by the light! I mean that's why MSFT got you to buy Windows 95 b/c you were dancing to "Start Me Up" right?

"use marketing that causes geeks to flinch in pain"
You mean to actually promote a business idea? Gasp!

"Sadly, Apple even copied these multi-touch gestures"
There's nothing sad about this. Your Linux copied everything ever made and tried to put it in one system.

"And when it comes to hardware, the general rule on the Mac is that it Just Works only if you buy pricey Apple-branded add-ons."

"Odds of getting my USB hard drive to work on a Mac are slim"
Right because the USB spec is so particular and strange. What a crock of bullshite.

There is very little premium for so called "apple add-ons" -- I can't even imagine what you mean by this.
All "add-ons" I have bought in the USB spectrum, monitors, (save for video cards which I'd have to be in your boat on), scanners, etc.. JUST WORK.

Exuse me? Eee PC is about 6 months late...

[LynnwoodRooster]

Lenovo's had multi-touch in their tablets since last October, and Dell's Latitude XT since last late November when it released.

I know it's slick to hype the Eee PC, but it's about 6+ months late to this party...

Multitouch is *NOT* new

[Railek]

I don't get why people have trouble remembering actual breakthroughs until someone like Apple buys out the technology - multitouch has been out for YEARS on Windows, Mac OS X, and I believe Linux.

The REAL inventer of the technology is Fingerworks, who had a whole lineup of the products - everywhere from full keyboards (Touchstream SP/LP) down to "small" 8"x6" multitouch surfaces. They even had a replacement keyboard for iBooks that replaced the ENTIRE keyboard with a multitouch surface.

Their gestures are also much more advanced than what Apple is now offering, and it quite pisses me off that I can no longer buy the truly advanced hardware without shelling out $800 on eBay on a good day (The Touchstreams in good condition typically reach $1200).

Their website is now rather barebones since they were bought out a few years ago and it's since been revealed that it actually was Apple who bought them. You can see a full list of what gestures they were actually able to support at http://www.fingerworks.com/touchstream_gesture_guide.html - and that's not even the least of it - since the drivers were open, you could even make your own gestures!

The interfaces between paper and bits

[tepples]

I brought over a dozen different things and plugged them into [an Eee PC] and they all worked perfectly, instantly. This included two keyboards, wireless mice, an ipod, an external DVD drive, a pocket USB hard drive, an SD card, a USB memory stick, and my camera. None required any user intervention AT ALL to use Except for the iPod, all of those have protocols that are completely specified by USB.org, either USB HID or USB mass storage. It appears you left out printers and scanners, which were my biggest roadbloack the last time I tried to use Linux.

But hardware for Mac exists

[tepples]

[On a Mac,] Hardware add-ons just fscking work, which is far more than can be said for Linux. By 'just fscking work', I assume you mean hardware that have 'for Mac' or are just standard USB dongles, because anything else will tend to behave quite badly. The difference is that there exists hardware that is certified 'for Mac'. I haven't seen a penguin on PC hardware boxes in the local Best Buy or Circuit City.

That's what I want to know...

[SanityInAnarchy]

Actually, that was my first thought when I saw the MacBook Air: "Can I put Linux on this thing and still use the multitouch?"

If I could be assured of that, I might buy one and dual-boot, probably stay in Linux most of the time. The Air is everything I want in a laptop except price, and that should come down by the time I can know all hardware will work.

Re:That's what I want to know...

[laffer1]

Apple doesn't lower prices that often. With the exception of the iPhone and iPods, I can't think of a lot of instances.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

In european shops you can find it

[DrYak]

The difference is that there exists hardware that is certified 'for Mac'. I haven't seen a penguin on PC hardware boxes in the local Best Buy or Circuit City. In european shop, you can find some no-name hardware maker which openly brag about Linux compatibility and draw a Tux on the box, whenever their knock-off product happens to use some generic chip for which there are already plenty of hardware (Realtek based net cards, Via based USB and FireWire cards, ...) or which use standard protocols (anything USB mass storage based).

It isn't really helpful (they only do it on hardware where the compatibility is pretty much obvious). But it shows that some hardware manufacturer are ready to do it, only for the sake of adding some more item on the check-list on the back of the hardware's box.

Re:Pinching zooms in

[HairyCanary]

Go use an iPhone. It quickly becomes obvious why pinching zooms out and spreading zooms in. It maps very nicely to how your mind thinks of what you just did with your fingers. You put your fingertips on two points on the screen, and as you move your fingertips together or apart, the screen zooms so that those two points on the image remain under your fingertips. It maps nicely to what you'd expect in the physical world.

3 fingers...

[neverlasting]

What they don't realize is I've already patented the "two finger vertical stroking" technique! I use it everyday, when I'm alone...

Take that Microsoft!

Dammit!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> and a two-finger vertical stroking motion allows you to scroll up and down

Crap crap crap! 169 comments so far, and every one making fun of this line! >:(

Re:Pinching zooms in

[iminplaya]

Yes, that was my gut reaction in my original post. And I believe it is the more logical way of doing it. But further thought made it easy for me to understand how it could work the other way around. Draw a frame, and the picture fills the frame, which fills the screen. I believe some mapping software or Autocad does it that way. Can't remember. Screen size could have a lot to do with it. The debate is far from resolved. Play around with your flight simulator, for example. Is it easier to fly it from inside the plane, or viewing it from behind? I suppose the simplest way to settle any argument would be to offer the option to do it either way.

The 701s Support Multi-Touch Too

[WhyCause]

I recently bought one of the older EEE PC 4Gs, and I accidentally figured out just yesterday that it already detects multiple touches on the mouse pad.

A two finger tap is interpreted as a middle click.

I was pretty pleased when It happened; hopefully, since the hardware is capable of it, we'll get updated drivers that make more use of it.

Re:300 iPhone patents? Ya, right...

[TheNetAvenger]

MOST IMPORTANT THING

Really, so coming to market is the most important thing? Then Apple loses in every context then...

First, you need to thank and give kudos to Creative and iRiver as they had MP3 products on the market 5 or 6 years before the iPod.

You also don't get that there are tons of multi-touch devices out there, even trackpads on existing Windows Laptops.

This is where this article is WRONG, as it may support multi-touch, but it is NOT THE FIRST ONE, in fact multi-touch drivers with the CURRENT gesturing concepts go back to freaking Windows XP and TabletPC designs from 2005/2006. Here: http://www.gottabemobile.com/LenovoThinkPadX60TabletPCMultiTouchAndUltrabase.aspx

Still think Apple brought it to market first?

Do a Google "Windows Multi-touch". There are tons of companies out there, is looking up information this hard for Mac users?

The other 'sick' part of the Apple multi-touch, is they applied for patents on almost everything that was presented at TED. So not only did they race home to put the technology in their devices, they filed for patents on technology that was demonstrated to them at a conference...

http://www.multitouchtechnology.com/mac/apple-patents-for-multi-touch-gestures-in-mac-os-x/

Nice uh?

Apple even touts the 300 patents on the iPhone as a feature or example that it is more advanced. So they tout how they cripple the technology world by shoving patents in a product they didn't even invent and this makes people happy? Nice again...

And don't even go there with the freaking visual voicemail... A cool name, so it MUST BE NEW! People are retarded when it comes to crap like this.

There have been voicemail systems around for over 10 years that offer the exact same features as Visual Voicemail. In fact, many of these phone system even use voice recognition on the call to put the first line of text on the screen, so it looks like an Visual Inbox with the actual message in text. And this really is 'Visual Voicemail', not just a CallerID name on a list on the freaking screen.

There were plugins for the Inbox in Windows95/NT 4.0 MAPI mailbox that had these features back in 1995/1996, and now Apple somehow 'obviously' invented it? Are you high?

Go look at a service like UReach even, it is one I have partnered with since it was opened back in the 1990s. It has a visual voicemail system, that is accessible from your PHONE, Web Page, or Computer even. And this is OLD TECHNOLOGY...

And the best implementations are the ones that literally show the message in text (being voice recognition processed), and you can even access the whole message wihtout listening to anything, but read it 'Visually'... Hell go look up MS Phone Speech services, they have been providing features like this to phone software providers for almost 7 years themselves. So Microsoft was doing this for years and years, but they didn't freaking invent it either... These are OLD concepts.

So how in the f**k does Apple get people to believe they created this stuff, cause they haven't. And not only that, then idiots like you give them 'credit' for at least doing it first. WTF?

GEEEEESSSSSHHHHH...............

touch without swivel display?

[Anonymous Coward]

For a touch screen to really be useful, the screen needs to swivel or be removed.

Re:Pinching zooms in

[iminplaya]

Why would someone think of pinching or stretching some imaginary frame when they really want to pinch or stretch the image on screen?

Well, I figure it can go like this..You have your picture on the screen, you can use two fingers to be opposite corners of a square (which of course would be visible while you're doing this) that would grow or shrink as you stretch or squeeze. Move both fingers in unison to move the whole square, and scroll the picture when you get to the edge. When you let go, the square fills the screen zooming the picture. The more I think about, I think I would like that option. But it probably wouldn't work so well on a really small screen, like on the iPhone or iPod.

The new Atom chip in May.

[Fantastic Lad]

If people can wait for a month, then the battery issue might clear up as Asus shifts to using Intel's Atom processor.

ASUS will also make some changes on the processor front with the Eee PC 900. It appears that early versions of the Eee PC 900 will continue to use the 900MHz Intel Celeron M processor. However, ASUS will be moving to Intel's Atom processors shortly after launch.

"From my view point, Diamondville is the better choice, because it uses the 45 nanometer processor. And price-wise it is very competitive. In my planning I will continue to use Intel's Diamondville," added [ASUS CEO Jerry] Shen. "And for the VIA one I think from the power point of view, Diamondville is still better. In May, these machines will be hitting the market."

Apparently, the Atom chews up a lot less energy than the Celeron. So perhaps a high-capacity battery in conjunction with this new Atom chip might set things straight, cuz until then, you're entirely right; if the battery life doesn't at least double, the Asus Eee 900 is likely to wind up gathering dust after the honeymoon.

-FL

Re:Pinching zooms in

[Anonymous Coward]

But it sounds like your terminology is backwards, zoom out on Google or yahoo maps shows you a bird's eye view, and zoom in is getting a closer view (no access to an iPhone, only 411 =)