Xbox 360 Finally Getting Blu-ray

Starturtle writes "Microsoft chief executive Steve Ballmer had admitted that Microsoft had been working on support for Blu-ray under Windows during this year's Mix08 conference. Rumors began to swirl and many began to expect Microsoft to announce a Blu-ray peripheral for the Xbox 360. However, Microsoft came out and denied all rumors, stating that they were not exploring any kind of Blu-ray add-on or in talks with Sony about integrating Blu-ray into the Xbox experience. After months of rumors and denials, the Xbox 360 with a Blu-ray disc drive is due to be manufactured soon and shipped in Q3 of 2008. Pegatron Technology, an OEM subsidiary of Asustek Computer, is reported to have received the winning order from Microsoft for a Blu-ray equipped Xbox 360."

Comments

Big Corp Lies

[log0n]

News at 11!

Re:Big Corp Lies

[OMNIpotusCOM]

They were hoping to announce it when they bought Yahoo!, but since someone isn't playing ball they just figured they'd put it on two peoples' blogs.

Re:Big Corp Lies

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes as much sense as saying "Irish people with last names contain the letter G that live at house numbers that are natural primes lie film at 11". Yes those particular Irish people do lie occasionally, but not necessarily more or less than any other Irish, Germans, Asians, Africans that have any other combination of letters in their names and live anywhere at any time. People lie. Large corporations lie.

Small companies lie. I lie, you lie, your mom lies.

Cost?

[NuclearError]

What will the cost be? TFA doesn't say anything. Also, can you hook it up to your 360 simultaneously with your HD-DVD drive?

Re:Cost?

[donaldm]

What will the cost be? TFA doesn't say anything. Also, can you hook it up to your 360 simultaneously with your HD-DVD drive? You can now buy laptops with inbuilt Bluray reader and DVD/CD read/write drive for not much more than that same laptop without the Bluray reader. The reason why it is relatively cheap to do this is the actual Bluray diode is right next to the DVD/CD diode and the mechanics and electronics are fully integrated to share/decode the two diodes. Go to your local computer store and eject the BD/DVD/CD drive and you can plainly see both diodes.

If Microsoft produces a Bluray add-on like they did with HD-DVD drive it is going to be about the same price as the original HD drive and this would possibly be attractive to Xbox360 owners although like the HD-DVD drive it would be not be that popular especially when the total costs are greater than that of a PS3. This is up to the customer since they do have a choice.

If Microsoft brought out an Xbox360 with inbuilt BD/DVD/CD drive they are going to alienate many millions of people who already own an Xbox360, especially if game companies start to bring out games on Bluray disk. Personally I don't think this will happen but you never know, it would be interesting to see how Microsoft could spin this. Of course you get people who like to buy the latest thing and something like this would not bother them.

It must be noted that while the PS3 went through some changes the fundamental configuration which consists of a BD/DVD/CD player, wireless/blutooth, USB (4 to 2 but still there) and hard disk (20GB,60GB and 80GB and whatever you feel like adding) was never changed. The only things that got dropped were the SD/MS/CF readers (nice but not critical) and backwards compatibility which personally I feel was not a good move but it may be possible that software compatibility will be brought back. If the Xbox360 came out with an in-built BD/DVD/CD player this will be a radical change that could seriously undermine their credibility, still only time will tell.

Re:Cost?

[fyrewulff]

Games would never come out on Blu Ray for 360. Drives are too slow, and it'd be market suicide to release your game on Blu Ray for the 360, since there's already about 13-14 million people with 360s already.

And I'm also pretty sure they could easily make the 360 not boot from Blu Ray, or simply not sign blu ray discs for retail games.

Re:Cost?

[Jonathan_S]

If Microsoft produces a Bluray add-on like they did with HD-DVD drive it is going to be about the same price as the original HD drive and this would possibly be attractive to Xbox360 owners although like the HD-DVD drive it would be not be that popular especially when the total costs are greater than that of a PS3. This is up to the customer since they do have a choice.

If Microsoft brought out an Xbox360 with inbuilt BD/DVD/CD drive they are going to alienate many millions of people who already own an Xbox360

Obviously, if Microsoft comes out with Blueray video support they should offer it both as an all-in-one new model and as an add-on drive.

The new xbox competes head to head with the PS3 for new owners, because now they are closer feature-wise, and both integrated clean single box game + blueray machines. But the extrenal upgrade drive is still a cheaper option to get Blueray for the existing 360 owners (but I'm sure it would be cheaper for new customers to buy the new xbox than it would be to buy and existing xbox model and the extrnal Blueray).

Kind of like they did with the 360 Elite. It was new model with a 120gb hard disk, but they also sold that 120gb disk separately so existing owners could upgrade without buying a new xbox.

Corporate lies?

[Anonymous Coward]

About time. But didn't they flatly deny this a few weeks ago at the death of the HD-DVD?

Re:Corporate lies?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. Now, if only someone would take it to the next level and ask if Microsoft had denied this earlier!

When will...

[Anonymous Coward]

And when will ps3 get hd-dvd?

corporate denials

[speculatrix]

the corporate denials were being taken with a very big pinch of salt by everybody... sure, they weren't in talks with *Sony* to put a Bluray drive into it.

phew, at least that dilemma is sorted out. just one big one left...

the next 360 game should be Steve Ballmer on a snow board chasing Jerry Yang, trying to hit him with a chair, called Yamped!

Re:corporate denials

[MsGeek]

Newsflash: MS has given up on their attempt to take over Yahoo. It seems like crow is the new dish of the day in Redmond.

Re:corporate denials

[p0tat03]

Thank God. That was a match made in hell. MS doesn't have any strengths in their own company that would be a good match with Yahoo's products and expertise. The move was nothing more than a panic buy to "compete" against Google.

And they're still refusing

[oberondarksoul]

to confirm it. All this article is is a claim that a Blu-Ray version of the 360 is being manufactured - which is what rumour sites have been suggesting since the death of HD-DVD. Until Microsoft confirms it, or we see one in the wild, this is still hearsay and speculation.

Re:And they're still refusing

[Dr. Eggman]

Well, in the mean time we can try to find the original news article. Its from the Chinese-language Economic Daily News. Here's the Chinese original (thanks Kotaku's Dutch!) and the Google translation

Re:And they're still refusing

[Guppy06]

But we've already seen this pattern before when Microsoft denied an HDMI 360 even after photos of the new motherboard were leaked.

What is the point exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people want Blu-ray in their 360? Just to watch Blu-ray videos?

Certainly no game manufacturer would do a Blu-ray game since it could not be guaranteed to be in every machine. So what is the point?

If you want to watch Blu-ray videos then you could use some other method, why hook it to a 360?

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

If you want to watch Blu-ray videos then you could use some other method, why hook it to a 360? First, why the hell not?

Second, to reduce the clutter of more boxes under your TV (apart from the extra drive of course).

Third, it will also presumably be a lot cheaper than buying either a PS3 or a dedicated blu-ray player. And if you already have a 360 (some people do, for some reason..), why not?

* proud owner of a PS3 >_> currently pissed off that GTAIV isn't playing nicely with PS Network *

Re:What is the point exactly?

[gEvil (beta)]

Third, it will also presumably be a lot cheaper than buying either a PS3 or a dedicated blu-ray player.

I dunno. I just got a new 40GB PS3 for $230 using some well known deals/tricks (plus the 50 buck credit that Amazon gave me for buying a $50 360 HDDVD drive last month).

Re:What is the point exactly?

[ClamIAm]

it will also presumably be a lot cheaper than buying either a PS3

I don't believe this. The PS3's current price reflects the fact that Sony is not only the gatekeeper for that platform but also that they manufacture a bunch of its components themselves. MS has a disadvantage here because they can't do neat tricks like deciding "we're not going to make any profit on parts X, Y, and Z until it costs less to produce them".

The funny thing is that it seems like MS has been trying really hard as of late to make their console business profitable. If they really are going forward with a Bluray 360, they're in a really tough spot: it will be a PR coup for Sony if costs more than a PS3.

Of course, this type of PR win will only sway the Sony/MS battle for all the nerds who argue about video games on the Internet. They will both still be trailing Nintendo.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[cmdrpaddy]

Why do people want Blu-ray in their 360? Just to watch Blu-ray videos? That's all the HDDVD add-on did. It would probably cost far less than a stand alone blu-ray player and now that blu-ray seems to have 'won' it might actually sell.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Mortanius]

Not to say that it won't happen, but you may be premature in saying that a current 360 owner could purchase an external BD-ROM drive for their 360.

Based on the article, my interpretation is that they've been contracted to build 360's with integrated BD-ROM drives. It could just be poor wording, but to me I wouldn't be expecting BD-ROM addons right away, at least based on this.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[DanTheStone]

Why do people want Blu-ray in their 360? Just to watch Blu-ray videos? Why are you saying no manufacturer would do a Blu-ray game? We have plenty of PC games that are released on both CD and DVD. It seems like a very similar situation to me.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[the_B0fh]

Hmm... for those not in the know, what are the tricks for a $230 PS3?

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

The Cell processor is hardly 'standard' computer hardware.. the 360 is a lot more standard, kind of similar to Macs of yesteryear in that it uses a PPC processor. I agree that they are rubbish, but that's mostly just because they're designed by Microsoft rather than the individual components. The only decent hardware I've ever seen by MS was the sidewinder force feedback joystick (the first one - the second was rubbish). Everything else breaks; wireless mice and keyboards someone stupidly ordered at my company, I would have got logitech stuff, and I told him that after the MS stuff started acting up. It was then put into the company handbook that all IT purchases have to go through me :p hehe. Anyway, the 360 hardware individually is fine, but the thermal design isn't great (similar again to Apple ;) my Macbook Pro gets hot and bothered very quickly if you try to play 3D games)

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

I meant the individual drive, rather than a 360+blu-ray player. If the 360 with blu-ray costs more than a PS3 then I just think it will make people see how much value for money you really get with a PS3.

The Wii can't even play DVDs (well, technically it can, but there is no software to do so.. :/ ), so it shouldn't even come into this. I have a Wii but I don't use it much. It's developed a weird and annoying problem with showing random white flecks in some textures and in the menu too.. I'm wondering if it overheated and got damaged at some point.. I wouldn't buy another if it broke down completely. If my PS3 overheated and died in a couple of years I'd maybe consider getting another one though, since it plays games, has a decent HD browser, plays DVDs and blu-rays. I like the Wii but its appeal is usually quite short lived, and the fact that it took them this long to get Mario Kart out, and Smash Bros Brawl got delayed again means that I have just given up on it. GTA IV will keep my interest for quite some time (once they patch up the friggin multiplayer issues) :) Sorry, I'm prone to ranting..

Re:What is the point exactly?

[dafing]

I agree, I feel the Xbox 360 is terribly dated compared to the PS3. I hear you cant tell from the graphics, and quite often the 360 versions have "brighter, more colourful visuals"?

But the console itself I feel is dated, no wifi, just got HDMI in as a sort of hack, now its gonna get Blu Ray (rumoured), its like they are trying to scramble after the PS3, which, is actually having its own problems really. I think its disapointing about the current Blu Ray vs HD DVD and Xbox 360 vs PS3 situation.

I hate how in New Zealand we only get the crippled 40GB PS3, I got a secondhand 60GB PS3 which in itself is a risk. I hate how the PS3 handles folders, and albums, to rename things is so difficult, browsing files on USB disks etc is so hard to do. Should all be very standard stuff.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[archkittens]

Everything else breaks; wireless mice and keyboards someone stupidly ordered at my company, I would have got logitech stuff, and I told him that after the MS stuff started acting up. It was then put into the company handbook that all IT purchases have to go through me :p

score

as for standard/non-standard, the processor, while technically a FRU, isnt on any microsoft system without a whole bunch of calling, and/or a new copy of windows. the trick is to lie and say that the old one broke... so i dont know how much you want to apply that to standard parts. in the area of HDDs and silly things like power supplies, you notice a difference. if only MS would turn back the clock and release a system like the Xbox, but with Xbox360 quality games!

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

as a proud xbox fanboy, I'd rather buy a PS3 for watching bluray movies than a stupid addon drive for my 360. the hd-dvd addon didn't fail because it was hd-dvd, it failed because it was a dumb fucking idea to have a hd-dvd player that was reliant on another piece of hardware to do its fucking job. a bluray addon will suffer the same low sales for the same reason

Re:What is the point exactly?

[@madeus]

I'm not sure why you feel the XBox 360 is dated (from a functional point of view).

It's true that most cross platform ports do look identical, at least when they are not moving. Unfortunately when they are moving, there are issues on the PS3.

GTA, for example is worse quality on the PS3 (upscaled from less than 720p, unlike the 360 version, and it's much jerkier in very active screens), the only other cross platform title I've seen which comes to mind is Assassin's Creed, which is also far from smooth on the PS3 (that and - has has been noted - the load times were longer, which I found quite puzzling).

I am not sure what you mean by "doesn't have WiFi" as mine certainly does, WiFi has been available as an option since launch, nor do I know what you mean by HDMI being a "sort of hack".

Personally I prefer to use the RGB output and the optical audio out to my surround sound system, as the quality is identical and I have more RGB inputs than HDMI inputs (4 RGB, 2 HDMI) on my Denon, but there is nothing "hacky" about the HD support on the 360.

I would note that the 360 has shipped with HD support out of the box since launch, while the PS3 still does not (HD cables must be purchased separately for the PS3).

Personally I am biased though, not in favour of the X-Box (though I do think Microsoft have done a MUCH better job on their console software) but rather I am very sceptical of Sony and their claims for the PlayStation.

The PS3 no more lives up to the hype than the disappointing PS2 did. There are still multi platform ports to the Dreamcast (which was released quite bit before, and was cheaper), XBox and PS2 which look most inferior on the PS2.

Sony - largely thanks to the success of the original Playstation and great brand positioning - have been very successful in controlling the building the hype machine though, particularly among casual observers.

The inclusion of a hard disk on all PS3 models was a smart move (and removing it as standard from the 360 has proven to be a big mistake by Microsoft, which has really hurt the performance and design of some titles on the 360).

I think Sony made a mistake by choosing to go with an esoteric CPU design (yet again, after all the developers moaned about how hard it was to develop for the PS2). To me that is madness, particularly when Microsoft are really strong in that area (providing an architecture that was so generic, that initial 360 demo's were designed and developed on PowerMac G5's).

The upshot of Sony's mistake is that it takes developers much longer to get titles running acceptably (with high levels of detail and still high frame rates) on the PS3, and they are going to resent spending time having to do that when then simpler but more effective 360 design allows them to spend much more time focusing on making the gameplay better and on polishing.

What has happened thus far is that the more ambitious cross platform titles have not lived up to scratch on the PS3, including titles that were scheduled to be PS3 exclusives at one point (which is rather damning).

I think Sony are still playing catch up with the PS3, there are no killer exclusives yet (GT5 looks good, but really I don't think it raises the bar much above PGR4) and the approach to the on line experience thus far has been one of determined indifference. Perhaps that will change when "Home" arrives though.

Unfortunately, developers (and Sony) are stuck with the hardware...

Re:What is the point exactly?

[afidel]

Eh, if the BD addon is only $99 like the HD-DVD addon was it will be a great deal and I can't understand why you would want to waste the money on a PS3 if all you want is a BD player. Oh and I personally hope they do offer an addon player so I can get it for my PC, I don't have either console but would love a cheap BD drive for my PC =)

Re:What is the point exactly?

[dafing]

thank you for your reply.

In terms of mostly design I feel the 360 feels dated. I look at the two of them together, and its like they said "the xbox was too fat, it has to be thin, oooh, Apples doing white, Microsoft's hip too" etc etc. Its like its trying to be a product of its time, one of the "cool kids" :)

I think of the PS3 as being much more "timeless", although I did swear a bit when I saw how big it was first time! I replaced a slimline PS2 with the PS3....its just shocking!

Wifi and HDD not built in, its just damn stupid. Like people on here have said, developers have to aim for the lowest spec. I cant believe they took the HDD out, and wifi, from one teardown of the PS3 they estimated it cost "one dollar" each to add bluetooth and wifi to the PS3. Sounds a funny figure to me, but surely its cheap enough compared to the CPU/GPU to give it wireless networking?

I myself am dissapointed with the PS3 in alot of ways like I said. I love having the gamer profiles etc on Xbox Live and wish my PS3 had something similar.

I cant believe how much you underestimated the PS2's impact. I guess you are American? Well here in NZ and in a few other countries I could think of, the PS2 was huge. It was the first practical DVD player for a lot of people. It played PS1 games still. It was familiar and very powerful for the time. It sure looks ugly now, but then think about what the original Xbox looks like!!!!

Remember how the original xbox, you had to pay to get dvd playback?

Using DVD rather than HD DVD or Blu Ray was just stupid. I see a lot of people complaining about the price of things. Well, in NZ things cost more than America, and with something like a PS3 or Xbox360, I would rather pay a hundred dollars or so more to get "essential features" like wifi etc. We have been shafted recently with the censored version of GTA 4 (because a totally different country doesnt have an R18 rating for games WTF?) and only having the 40GB PS3 on sale here!

I see the Xbox 360 and dont even want to touch it, I find almost everything about it repulsive, the colour and design, the exclusive games, apart from halo, dont do it for me etc etc. take it anyday over the Xbox 360.

Im not a fanboy, I can understand that it seems the xbox has better graphics IN THE REAL WORLD. I still hate the thing with a passion.

The PS3 is VERY far from what was promised if you ask me, but I'd rather have one anyday.

Thanks for your time!

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Burpmaster]

I have a Wii but I don't use it much. It's developed a weird and annoying problem with showing random white flecks in some textures and in the menu too.. I'm wondering if it overheated and got damaged at some point..

Yeah, your Wii's GPU went bad. That has happened to some people. You should check the warranty. It's good for one year, and if you register the serial number, they extend the warranty another 90 days. If something's wrong, don't let the warranty expire!

It's a pretty pain-free process. They actually track the purchase date when the system is bought and scanned at the store, so you don't need to track down any receipts for the warranty repair, just read them the serial number printed on the console. Then they send a shipping label, so you don't even have to pay shipping.

If the warranty is up, I hear it costs $75 to have them to repair it. That's a much better option than re-buying a new one for $250. And even if you don't care about owning a Wii anymore, why not repair it and sell it?

Re:What is the point exactly?

[gEvil (beta)]

Hmm... for those not in the know, what are the tricks for a $230 PS3?

Most people should be able to get it for $280 using the following. I got an extra $50 knocked off thanks to my Amazon HDDVD credit.

1) Sign up for a Sony credit card using this URL: www.sony.com/sonycard/ps3 If approved you'll get a $100 credit off your first purchase of $300 or more (can take a few weeks for the credit to show up though).
2) Once you have the credit card, head over to Amazon and do the Gold Box trick. I actually did this a few days before I got my card and just made sure not to visit Amazon in the meantime. Once I had the card in hand, I activated it, then went to Amazon. I logged in, clicked the gold box, and the 40GB PS3 was sitting there waiting for me under the Quick Picks section.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Doug Neal]

Why do people want Blu-ray in their 360? Just to watch Blu-ray videos?

Certainly no game manufacturer would do a Blu-ray game since it could not be guaranteed to be in every machine. So what is the point?

If you want to watch Blu-ray videos then you could use some other method, why hook it to a 360? Probably to attract those people that are undecided about whether to go for the PS3 or the 360, but quite like the idea of being able to play Blu-Ray discs on the PS3 without having to buy two devices.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[donaldm]

Hmm... for those not in the know, what are the tricks for a $230 PS3? I got my Australian 60GB PS3 just over a year ago for the equivalent of US$420 (AU$499 at the time) when I traded in my working 5 year old PS2 and 10 games that I would consider pathetic. Even so I found that only about 85% of most PS2 games are backwards compatible but for me that is fine since the up-scaling of working PS2 games to HDTV (720p and 1080p) is very good.

Even today if you are willing to look around you can find gaming places willing to do deals. Just before Christmas 2007 in Australia Sony had a special deal of a free 40GB PS3 with any X Bravia HDTV from 40" to 50" at 1080p and the price for the HDTV's were very competitive at the time. Many gaming places are still offering deals however I would be very wary of trading your PS2 in since the 40GB PS3 is not backwards compatible for PS2 games (PS1 games still work). Still the choice is yours.

If you want a good deal many companies will drop their prices if you are going to buy a HDTV and/or Stereo system plus a PS3. You do need to do some homework though. Of course you want to consider paying cash.

Personally I find I am playing more PS2 games on my PS3 than native PS3 games, since there are just so many good games at almost bargain bin prices, so I am saving quite a lot of money. PS3 games do appear to hold their price longer than the Xbox360 games but that is only normal since in Australia the PS3 has only been out 14 months, however I can get 3 to 4 good PS2 games for the price of one good PS3 game. The games for the Wii (Out for over 18 months) are not that much cheaper than an equivalent Xbox360 or PS3 game and hold their price even longer and you only get Standard Definition and in many cases substandard graphics. Still IMHO if you don't have a HDTV (minimum 32") it is rather pointless getting a PS3 or Xbox360.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[donaldm]

The US$99 HD-DVD addon was only after the writing was on the wall for HD-DVD and it even dropped to US$50 when the crunch came. I would expect a Xbox360 BD addon to be between US$99 and US$149 but Microsoft is going to take a hit on them.

With regard to PC's the BD(25GB)/DVD/CD reader/writer is approx AU$350 (approx US$360) in Australia for a PC addon and in the US it would be cheaper again, however the media is still expensive although if you compare the price to the DVD in 2001 it is much cheaper per Giga Byte. Actually companies like HP are selling laptops with BD (read-only) DVD/CD reader/writers at a price not much dearer than one with a DVD/CD reader/writer.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[tryone]

If you want to watch Blu-ray videos then you could use some other method, why hook it to a 360? First, why the hell not? Because you'd never hear the movie above the godawful noise a 360 makes?

Re:What is the point exactly?

[91degrees]

Plenty? There are some. Not that many though.

and PC owners are used to checking the requirements against their specs. Xbox 360 users expect an Xbox 360 game to work on an Xbox 360.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[drinkypoo]

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would like to own an Xbox 360 with Blu-Ray. Unfortunately, I am not willing to give Microsoft money and so I will have to wait until they are available used - and abundantly so, so that I am not converting a used sale into a new sale for someone else.

My reasoning runs something like this: Sooner or later, the protection on the 360 will be completely defeated and sometime thereafter it will be as inviting a place to install Linux as the original Xbox is today - only it's an insanely powerful machine (something we seldom talk about, but the Xbox 360 is incredibly powerful and versatile from a hardware perspective) and I'm going to want to use one for my next media player. By then I'll probably be able to use the internal BD-ROM to rip Blu-Ray titles conveniently, and the Xbox 360 has enough disk space and enough processing power to transcode them down to something smaller. This will let me perform time-shifting and rip/convert tasks as well as streaming and sharing in a single system - which means I'll be able to watch those movies on any system in the house.

All this is quite some time off, but that's cool, I can wait. In the mean time, if I had an HDTV (we have an XGA-resolution projector which will take an HD signal, but why?) I would be interested in one because I am not especially interested in the Playstation 3, but I would at that point want a HD video player. I still wouldn't want to give Microsoft my money, but then, it's not like there's a lot of benevolent options out there anyway. At least, not right now.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[drinkypoo]

I thought that all the original Xbox hardware (I have seen Xbox 360s, but I have yet to touch one, or the controller) was pretty solid; both "The Duke" (though I have one with a dirty pot) and the Controller S are pretty amazingly excellent controllers, and between them the Xbox actually accommodates both people with small hands, and with large ones. While the hardware internal to the Xbox was less than inspiring, I've had few problems with mine and the system is actually pretty easy to work on while being able to soak up an amazing amount of abuse. Also, I used to have the original MS force feedback wheel, I moderately abused it before passing it on to my dad, who still has it.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Das Modell]

First, why the hell not?

The 360 is very, very noisy.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[drinkypoo]

In terms of mostly design I feel the 360 feels dated. I look at the two of them together, and its like they said "the xbox was too fat, it has to be thin, oooh, Apples doing white, Microsoft's hip too" etc etc. Its like its trying to be a product of its time, one of the "cool kids" :)

I am known to be a Sony hater, but the PS3 looks like a George Foreman grill. Serious.

The Xbox looks kind of boring and lame. But it's got trivially-replaceable faceplates, which I think is a great feature that should have been obvious to all console manufacturers from the situation with cellular phones.

I cant believe they took the HDD out, and wifi, from one teardown of the PS3 they estimated it cost "one dollar" each to add bluetooth and wifi to the PS3.

I agree that not having WiFi and Bluetooth is a big mistake. I strongly disagree that each costs only one dollar; there is the significant cost of development and support, which cannot be measured by examining the hardware.

Dropping the HDD is a big mistake, too. But understandable. They wanted to bring the price down and that has proven to be a big win for them against Sony.

Remember how the original xbox, you had to pay to get dvd playback?

Remember how the original PS2, you had to pay to get an IR receiver, and how even the Slim one with one built in is still an incredibly shitty DVD player, with the worst quality I've ever seen? (I have both Xbox and PS2 connected right now.) The Xbox is hooked up to the projector, and the PS2 is connected to my crap 27" TV. This is with good reason.

I guess you are American? Well here in NZ and in a few other countries I could think of, the PS2 was huge. It was the first practical DVD player for a lot of people. It played PS1 games still. It was familiar and very powerful for the time. It sure looks ugly now, but then think about what the original Xbox looks like!!!!

The PS2 was and still is the most popular video game console in the US. However, it is a pile of shit compared to either Xbox or possibly Dreamcast and certainly Gamecube. It is by a significant margin the least powerful machine of its generation and any cross-platform game not first developed on the PS2 is guaranteed to have superior graphics on every other platform.

In addition, Sony's year-early specifications for the PS2 were overinflated by approximately an order of magnitude. It played upon the general ignorance of the market by making fraudulent claims to harm Sega's position in the marketplace. Fraud is a crime and Sony is a criminal - oh, wait, corporations only have all the rights of an individual, not any of the responsibilities. My bad.

We have been shafted recently with the censored version of GTA 4 (because a totally different country doesnt have an R18 rating for games WTF?) and only having the 40GB PS3 on sale here!

So just buy the stuff from another country through Lik-Sang! Oh, wait, you can't do that because Sony used a "Scorched Earth" technique to destroy them, by suing them in basically every nation of the EU. They couldn't even afford to respond to the lawsuits, and closed their doors.

Im not a fanboy, I can understand that it seems the xbox has better graphics IN THE REAL WORLD. I still hate the thing with a passion.

You are a fanboy, because you don't seem to realize that people live IN THE REAL WORLD.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[johannesg]

Maybe a better question is, "what player would Microsoft want you to buy when you buy a Bluray player?". I'm sure the answer is not "a PS3"...

So what choice do they have, really?

Re:What is the point exactly?

[teh1337striker]

The 360 isn't that loud, mine is practically silent once loaded and it does not even heat up noticeably, and after plenty of time of gaming, it is still blowing room temperature air out the vents, and I have a Xenon unit. I definitely can't hear it during Rock Band, as I have the stereo blasting and I am pounding the **** out of my drum kit, and I don't think people play games or watch movies with the sound muted, so the disc drive noise is not a problem. Because of your comment, I assume you are either a: 1) Devout PC Gamer, or 2) a PS3 fanboi, as the Xbox 360 is reasonably quiet. If you happen to own a 360, and you have disc drive or any other problems, try keeping it in the open on top of a coffee table or small cabinet, as having 5 sides of it open to air definitely helps with noise and heat.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[dafing]

Your signature says to let this slide, but I cant help myself.

I said I can understand that the Xbox 360 has better graphics in real applications. Sure, I get that. I say theres lots of things I dont like about the PS3, and that Im not a fanboy for the PS3. However I still get called fanboy!

You think the PS2 was a bad dvd player? dude, you are so totally wrong about that, PS2 did dvds right out of the box, know how I know? Because mine came with two games, two controllers and a DVD of Spiderman 2. A great package, and perfect for dvd movies. You seem to think the PS2 needed you to buy a remote! Nothing wrong with using a controller, especially the new wireless ones on the PS3. The dvd player was the worst you had seen? in what way? you could get a remote if you wanted one, I never did, the quality, its not like it had static etc through the picture? Surround sound wasnt up to your standard? Im sure that average 40 dollar (NZ, maybe $20-30 american) DVD player is a lot worse than the PS2 was. The Xbox had a terrible remote.

You say you are a sony hater, and bring up about sony not liking companies that import games etc etc. Have you read about Microsoft? I've never heard of people hating a company more than MS. With practically 100% of people (practically) using Windows, its very hated, and thats BEFORE Vista! I explained Im not a fanboy, I dont have any Sony Tattoos (would consider an Apple logo thought), I wont ignore the DRM thing etc.

The George Forman is smaller than a PS3, unless you have an American sized one :) The PS2 was known as "darth vaders toaster".

In terms of the PS2 being "an order of magnitude" overhyped, about say, the toystory quality graphics, I think games like Metal Gear Solid 2 etc qualify as having CG movie quality graphics, wouldnt you? There are jagged lines (which drive me nuts on GTA 4, its so beautiful apart from that) but overall I think that MGS2 counted as having "movie quality" graphics, especially at the time.

I believe the Xbox lost MS a big bundle of money. The 360 is still not an earner? Sure the PS3 has cost Sony a lot Id assume, but overall I would think that the PS2/3 have been more successful in anyones view than Xbox/360? Did that make you snort?

About the cost of wifi/bluetooth, you say about support and development costs, what a load of BS. Many cheap MP3 players have both now, I mean very cheap, the kinds that Apple haters buy. Many cheap gadgets now have wifi and bluetooth built in. I see the PS3 as "being a jack of all trades" when it comes to functions, Its perfectly good as a DVD player, I used my PS2 for my substantial dvd collection, it does cds, games, pictures, videos.......I wish it did some extra things or did some basic folder stuff better, but overall its pretty much what I had expected.

About faceplates, have you got an Xbox 360 with a good looking faceplate? Faceplates were always terrible I think, I had a Lord of the Rings one on my Nokia a while back, and it looked terrible on a phone. Do you mean more of like "wow, my xbox is red/blue/black, well at least on the front"? You can get decal type faceplates for the PS3, things like flames and skulls, the usual crap. My iPhone doesnt need faceplates, I dont see why a PS3 would. If you have a good looking faceplate, Id like to know! Have a great day wherever you are friend, if you have the time, drop me a reply :)

Re:What is the point exactly?

[rtechie]

The inclusion of a hard disk on all PS3 models was a smart move (and removing it as standard from the 360 has proven to be a big mistake by Microsoft, which has really hurt the performance and design of some titles on the 360). I'd point out that Sony didn't really have a choice. One of the biggest problems with the PS3 is that the Blu-Ray drive is S-L-O-W. This means that in order to play many games the PS3 HAS to install a large number of game assets to the HD to make playback possible. For example, GTA IV has a mandatory 3.4 GB HD install. The 360 has a far speedier 16X DVD-ROM drive and so this is less of an issue. I'd agree that making the HD STANDARD would have been very useful for the 360 as then developers could offload assets to the HD and improve performance.

OTOH, it doesn't seem to have made a major impact on the 360 versions of GTA and Oblivion. And I'd argue that Oblivion is the multiplayer game that best shows the technical advantages of the PS3 (the PS3 version of Oblivion looks a bit better, has better draw distance, and loads a bit faster than the 360 version due to the HD install).

Re:What is the point exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly no game manufacturer would do a Blu-ray game since it could not be guaranteed to be in every machine. So what is the point?

Even if game developers wanted to make games that would fit on blue ray discs they are not allowed to. Microsoft will not let them. There have been a few articles about it and a lot of game developers are kind of upset because a lot of games have a hard time fitting on a DVD.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[drinkypoo]

Your signature says to let this slide, but I cant help myself.

My signature says to let stupid comments from ACs slide. I can't see how this applies to my comment. Perhaps you could elucidate?

You think the PS2 was a bad dvd player? dude, you are so totally wrong about that, PS2 did dvds right out of the box, know how I know?

Again, you have displayed your lack of reading comprehension. I hope and pray that English is not your first language. I said the PS2 was a bad DVD player, not that it was not a DVD player. And in fact, I was right. If you examine the quality of output from a PS2 it loses against basically any other player, including $99 portables and the like. Why this is, I don't know, but I think it has something to do with Sony's general incompetence in every area but marketing.

You seem to think the PS2 needed you to buy a remote!

Given that I have owned three PS2s now I am probably aware - yes, in fact, I am aware, I just checked with myself - that you did not need a remote. However, I like to have one, and it did not come with one.

Perhaps you are not aware that a hacked Xbox can play DVDs without a remote, or don't care. But since this was a primary reason for purchasing an Xbox, and something you still can't do with a PS2 (without the crippled Linux kit... oh wait, you can't use the optical drive under PS2 Linux... did I mention it was crippled?) this is just another win for the Xbox in my book. You might argue that the average user will not hack anything. I would argue that if you are on Slashdot and you are not part of the group that would hack their Xbox, you are part of the group running Slashdot into the toilet.

The dvd player was the worst you had seen? in what way? you could get a remote if you wanted one, I never did, the quality, its not like it had static etc through the picture?

No, it DID have static etc throughout the picture, it had HORRIBLE DECODING ARTIFACTING. I know of no other DVD player which produces such poor output. The APEX AD-3201 with its high sharpness does not look so grainy. The Xbox certainly produces dramatically superior output. I have simply never seen a DVD player with shittier output than a PS2. Period, the end. Both anecdotal and empirical evidence support this observation. Ask Google - it will back me up.

In terms of the PS2 being "an order of magnitude" overhyped, about say, the toystory quality graphics

Actually, I'm talking about how the specifications for number of textured polys that Sony announced was literally about twelve times the actual specs of the system.

I think games like Metal Gear Solid 2 etc qualify as having CG movie quality graphics, wouldnt you?

No, I don't. The resolution is piss-poor compared to even a movie on VHS, let alone on DVD or even LD.

There are jagged lines (which drive me nuts on GTA 4, its so beautiful apart from that) but overall I think that MGS2 counted as having "movie quality" graphics, especially at the time.

Movies didn't have jaggies at the time, and they still don't. Case closed.

Incidentally, Sony claimed that basically all games would be fully antialiased on the PS2. Guess how true that turned out to be?

I believe the Xbox lost MS a big bundle of money. The 360 is still not an earner?

Microsoft never expected to make money on the Xbox, and lost less than most analysts expected. The Xbox division is now profitable - no idea which portion the money's coming from. I expect Live is a big part of it.

You say you are a sony hater, and bring up about sony not liking companies that import games etc etc. Have you read about Microsoft?

Microsoft, too, is slime. My point was not so much that Microsoft is better than Sony but that Sony is at least as bad as Microsoft. I often describe Sony as the Micro

Re:What is the point exactly?

[twistedsymphony]

You think the PS2 was a bad dvd player? dude, you are so totally wrong about that, PS2 did dvds right out of the box.

Playing DVDs and being a great DVD player are two different things. No one is arguing that the PS2 didn't play DVDs, it did, and it did it right out of the box... but it did not play them well, the black levels where horrible, it had all kinds of artifacting, and the video would pretty much lock up for a whole second on layer change. The PS2 was a cheap, low-quality DVD player and while it helped a generation migrate from VHS it didn't even hold a candle to mediocre stand alone players of the day and is completely trounced by everything on the market today.

In terms of the PS2 being "an order of magnitude" overhyped, about say, the toystory quality graphics, I think games like Metal Gear Solid 2 etc qualify as having CG movie quality graphics, wouldnt you?

I know I wouldn't say that. MGS2 had good graphics for a PS2 game, but I also owned a Dreamcast, a Gamecube and and Xbox 1 in addition to my PS2, and games on those platforms always looked much much better than the PS2 versions. The simple fact is that Sony showed pre-rendered footage and sold it as "in-game graphics" to a people who didn't know better. And they tried the same trick with the PS3 as well, execpt it didn't work as well because more people were wise to their shady hype tactics... need I remind anyone of "killzone 2". Don't get me wrong the PS2 wasn't BAD but it wasn't movie CG by a long-shot, nor was it even the best console of it's generation (most popular yes, but popularity does not the best make).

I believe the Xbox lost MS a big bundle of money. The 360 is still not an earner?

The Xbox division started turning a profit well over a year ago. and I recall reading an article that as of the end of last fiscal year that day-in profit has brought the division into the black for the first time since it was first formed with the Xbox 1.

As for looks, IMO that's a very stupid reason to buy one piece of hardware over another. I don't really like the looks of the 360 or the PS3, but I'm not buying them for looks I'm buing them to play games. I don't need WiFi because NEITHER console is portable and a physical connection is always better, and I don't want either device to play movies because Stand Alone players are always better in quality (and if you buying Blu-Ray or HD-DVD aren't you pretty much only buying it for quality?).

Your argument also doesn't make sense, on the one hand you're going on about how the PS2 was great because it was a cheap DVD player and played ps1 games, and then on the other hand you still bought a PS3 even though it's essentially the antithesis of everything you bought the PS2 for.

I hate MS personally but I bought both the Xbox 1 and the Xbox 360 because they play the games I want to play better than any other platform. I bought a PS2 because it played games that I couldn't play at all on any other platform. Ultimately what I'm spending my money on, is a machine that will play games, not something that has the name brand I like, not something that looks pretty, not something that has worthless bells and whistles that I'll never really use. The fact is that the Xbox 360 plays more games that I like, and does a better job playing those games than any other console this generation. I'll buy a PS3 if and when it offers games that are distinctly better in quality and features than the Xbox 360 versions, or when it has games that I want to play that I can't get anywhere else... and when it has a enough of these that warrant the price they're charging for the system. I could give a damn about Blu-Ray or how the hunk of plastic looks sitting on my shelf.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[ClamIAm]

Disclaimer: I don't own any current-gen console (well, I do have a DS), and I think MS, Sony and Nintendo are all equally evil.

The Wii can't even play DVDs (well, technically it can, but there is no software to do so.. :/ ), so it shouldn't even come into this.

I didn't mention the Wii, but I thought Nintendo was relevant because it's important to think about MS and Sony's PR battle about arcane technical things should be thought of in the context of the larger issue of making money. Specifically, even if Sony can claim that PS3 gets you Bluray for $100 less (or whatever) than a 360, this doesn't matter if they both fall way behind Nintendo.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

They also probably fall way behind the baking industry, but that's comparing apples to oranges as they say. The DS is completely different to the main console market. Personally I prefer not to peer at a teeny screen all day when I have my HDTV and PS3 sitting there - I've only really used my DS when travelling or on holiday.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

MS has a disadvantage here because they can't do neat tricks like deciding "we're not going to make any profit on parts X, Y, and Z until it costs less to produce them". For some reason didn't notice this before either, but MS were always making a deficit on the first X-Boxes weren't they? They can decide to do such things simply because they are rolling in teh cash.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

Tis a good point. I'd never buy one myself, I just think it makes sense if you already have an X-Box. You could always put the X-Box in another room and use a mahusive cable, wireless transmitter, or stream the video somehow.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[somersault]

I got the Wii not long after it came out in the UK (a couple of Christmases ago) so it's well past its warranty. It still works though, and my sister's won't care about a snowy effect, they're the sort of people who don't see the point in HD graphics and such and are more interested in dressing up their Mii's. So I left the Wii at home a couple of weeks ago and I think it will be happy there. My bro also wants to finish off Twilight Princess (as do I, but I haven't made the time for it, plus playing it will probably just remind me of a rather crappy period in my life, tis a bit pathetic really :P ). I'm happy just to let them have it rather than sell it, I don't tend to sell things even if I don't currently use them.

GTA IV is now working in multiplayer! I think their servers were just suffering from a massive DDoS effect from all the PS3 and XBox owners in the world trying to connect at the same time last week :)

Re:What is the point exactly?

[DrEldarion]

GTA, for example is worse quality on the PS3 I'm curious where you're getting your information from, since every single comparison review I've read has said that the PS3 version runs smoother and has less texture pop-in.

The pros went like this:
PS3: Smoother graphics.
360: More solid online experience/downloadable content.

I am not sure what you mean by "doesn't have WiFi" Probably "you have to pay extra to get wifi capability", and that the accessory that provides it is absurdly overpriced (much like the 360 hard drives).

Re:What is the point exactly?

[DrEldarion]

Don't you dare badmouth Microsoft mice! The original Intellimouse Explorer is the best piece of hardware ever created. I have three, and my main one has been through hell for the past 7 years (multiple drinks spilled on it, etc) and still works perfectly. 3

Re:What is the point exactly?

[DrEldarion]

You do realize that one of the most common complaints from 360 owners is the noise from it, right? It pretty much ruins any quiet scenes in games or movies.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=noisy+xbox+360&btnG=Search

That said, the noise is from the DVD drive, and if they're replacing the drive, chances are they'll pick something less noisy.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[teh1337striker]

Usually, by then, my DVD drive has already spun down, as the data it needs is loaded into RAM, and even when loading, it is only a tenth of the noise produced by my HP Pavilion (not kidding, thing sounds like a train when you leave a disc in there), and whenever I watch DVDs, I can hear fine, even with the volume down, no noise, just a faint hum of the fans.

Re:What is the point exactly?

[@madeus]

As far as GTA goes, the resolution is known to be lower on the PS3 (only marginally, but still). The game uses a lower resolution for all distance objects on both platforms, so that complicates things further. Not a huge difference practically, but that's very well known already.

I have not (yet) had any slowdown on the 360, nor seen or heard of any, what you are saying about that is news to me, but I have seen it on the PS3. Not as bad as with Assassins Creed though, where there was a very significant difference (although it has one framerate bug on both platforms that mean you had quit/restart the game, again complicating things further).

GTA on both has very minor pop issues (e.g. when being outside and going in doors on some occasions). On both consoles the game (mercifully) caches the content to the HD, so I expect it's the same deal on both (not like Mass Effect on the 360, which is one big texture-popup extravaganza from developers who apparently were not aware that such as thing as "hard disks" exist on most 360's).

Probably "you have to pay extra to get wifi capability", and that the accessory that provides it is absurdly overpriced (much like the 360 hard drives). That's true, both are insanely overpriced for the X-Box. I bought the 120 GB drive as my 20 GB was always full, that left a nasty hole in my wallet. The 60 GBP for the WiFi adapter did not make me a happy bunny either.

In my defense, although aware of that, I considered that even with WiFi, it was - and is - still cheaper to get a 360 than a PS3. Of course you don't get a Blu Ray drive with the 360 - which makes the PS3 more compelling, particularly now the format war is over - but then again with the 360 you are not forced to pay extra for features you don't want (but I'd argue that an HD console does really need a Hard Disk, streaming textures off a DVD/Blu Ray drive just isn't fast enough to be practical).

Re:What is the point exactly?

[ClamIAm]

I fail to see how looking at the broader issue of the home console landscape (PS3, 360, Wii) is "apples and oranges" to a comparison exluding the Wii.

P.S. please note that my reference to the DS was in a "disclaimer" section and has very little to do with my main point.

Poor Steve!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be so AWFUL, having to listen to the puny consumer and dsatisfy their demands. Just like a menial customer-service rep.

He must be so steamed!

Oooh look there- in the corner, Steve. That chair. That delicate, finely-crafted, all-wood dining chair. It's so vulnerable, it would probably break if you grabbed it too roughly.

Go on, Steve, touch it. Feel how it gives under your rough hands. So delicate, so fragile. You wouldn't want anything to break that chair, would you? Would you??

Re:Poor Steve!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

*throws chair against the wall*

I'm going to fuck*ng kill Sony!

Neat!

[Rob T Firefly]

After the secondary-market price of the original unit goes down as a result of this, I may actually buy a used 360.

Re:Neat!

[the_B0fh]

With a at least 30% death rate on 360s, are you sure you want to buy a used 360, especially one that might have been resurrected through the towel trick? Microsoft did not set aside $1billion to fix 360s for no reason. Do you feel lucky?

Re:Neat!

[antek9]

Good luck with that, but at least make sure there's still some warranty left for the thing. I'd love to see diagrams at some point in the future that show how the installed base of xbox 360s does actually deteriorate over time.

What purpose would it serve?

[feepness]

No developer could take advantage of it given all the 360s out there with DVD drives.

And furthermore, you're going to add another new layer of complexity onto an already flaky hardware?

It's like building a beautiful sculpture on top of a condemned building about to collapse.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[kai.chan]

The XBox360 architecture was never designed to support anything other than DVDs. Even with the HD-DVD peripheral, XBox360 games could not have taken advantage of the extra space that seems to be in demand nowadays. But I agree, XBox360 is the worst reliable piece of consumer electronics in recent history. At first, I didn't believe at how a piece of electronics can have at least 30% failure rate; but I was made a believer when every one of my friends' 360 broke down.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[calebt3]

You really believe the sculpture will still be beautiful after MS gets done with it?

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[miscz]

At the moment PS3 is the most attractive BR player (very cheap, upgradeable) and it's hurting Microsoft a lot, especially in many places outside USA where piracy is not widespread - west of Europe, Japan, probably Korea etc.

Hardcore gamers and people with HD TV that enjoy HD video content are often the same bunch which makes PS3 pretty attractive product.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[maxume]

It depends a great deal on the incremental cost of going from DVD to Blu-ray. If it costs them $20(no idea what actual costs are) to make it play Blu-ray discs, they are going to do it.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[OMNIpotusCOM]

when every one of my friends' 360 broke down

All one of them? That's 100%!

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Dutch Gun]

The Xbox architecture was never designed to support anything other than DVD's? Nonsense, it was built with extensibility in mind, just like any other console. The fact that there was an HD-DVD add-on proves that. An integrated Blu-Ray (or even an add-on) won't be any harder for them.

What *is* true is that games can't take advantage of the storage space, because you have to build games with the lowest-powered SKU out in the market - that is, DVD drives. Technically speaking, I suppose they could make both Blu-Ray OR DVD versions of games (where DVD versions ship with multiple disks), but I'd wager heavily against that ever happening.

And, it's also true that the 360 is one of the most flawed pieces of major consumer electronics in recent history. I don't think it's quite as big a deal as most people think, though, since MS is replacing them for free. Most of my friends, while annoyed at the lost of gaming time, simply get a replacement console from MS and keep playing.

Here's partly why I think the Xbox is still going to be ok... A large number of my friends and co-workers have both a 360 and a PS3. Even so, most of us will still pick up a 360 version of a game given a choice. The games are pretty much equivalent, but the 360's online experience is so much better, and people like adding to their GamerScore*.

* Whoever thought this up at MS should get a promotion. It's one of the simplest yet most brilliant things MS has ever done.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[archkittens]

... And, it's also true that the 360 is one of the most flawed pieces of major consumer electronics in recent history. I don't think it's quite as big a deal as most people think, though, since MS is replacing them for free...

that's a warranty, which they promised, presumably, before they knew it was going to fail on such a large scale. they're legally obligated to honor that warranty. if microsoft were to replace it for free, AND give us a half off coupon for the next time our 360s fail (by which time the warranty will be gone), i might consider giving them credit for that.

... and people like adding to their GamerScore*. * Whoever thought this up at MS should get a promotion. It's one of the simplest yet most brilliant things MS has ever done. i disagree. whomever thought this up should be stolen by google, so that steve ballmer can throw a game chair!

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Neoprofin]

I have to agree about gamer points, I added a full set from Assassins Creed to my roommate's account before I realized how easy it was to create my own. Finally something more than personal satisfaction from doing needlessly hard optional quests.

I have to say though, all of seen of the PSN store is the Rockband section and it's leaps and bounds ahead the xbox live version. The only advantage the 360 has is that you don't have to exit out of the game to access it.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[spectecjr]

The XBox360 architecture was never designed to support anything other than DVDs. Even with the HD-DVD peripheral, XBox360 games could not have taken advantage of the extra space that seems to be in demand nowadays.

Kind of an odd statement. Which system do you believe is architectured better to take advanatage of large space?

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[bigstrat2003]

Finally something more than personal satisfaction from doing needlessly hard optional quests. Gamerscore is STILL just personal satisfaction, man.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Danse]

that's a warranty, which they promised, presumably, before they knew it was going to fail on such a large scale. they're legally obligated to honor that warranty. if microsoft were to replace it for free, AND give us a half off coupon for the next time our 360s fail (by which time the warranty will be gone), i might consider giving them credit for that. Actually, they extended the warranty to three years after they found out how high the failure rate was.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Yvan256]

He said friends. That's a minimum of two. ;)

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Yvan256]

Depends on the point of view of the gamer too. I'd rather see bigger, longer games on the Wii than smaller, shorter hi-def games on the Xbox360 or PS3.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[archkittens]

with a 100% failure rate, they did that more to please the game companies than the consumers. doing something to protect the entire Xbox 360 content lineup and doing it for the people that actually use the product are different. its just like their extensions of the life of windows XP, they're not doing it for the consumer, they're doing it for the companies, and they shouldnt be doing it at all. the amount of resources being put into their existing crappy hardware and software systems is crippling their future, potentially half-decent, hardware and software systems.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[drinkypoo]

No developer could take advantage of it given all the 360s out there with DVD drives.

That's not true, because at least JVC has the technology to produce a hybrid BD-ROM/DVD-ROM. Thanks for playing, though.

Granted, it makes things more expensive. But it also simplifies the game slightly; instead of having to have the game properly detect and select the version of the game you want to play, you just pick the side.

And furthermore, you're going to add another new layer of complexity onto an already flaky hardware?

Explain please how changing one optical drive for another represents adding an additional layer of complexity. At most it replaces one with another. Even if it were external, that would still be true, due to the presence of the HD-DVD addon for the 360.

The additional complexity is mostly in software. Microsoft has a mixed record there, of course.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[drinkypoo]

with a 100% failure rate, they did that more to please the game companies than the consumers.

Pleasing one pleases the other. Make the game companies happy to keep them making games. Make the consumers happy to keep them buying your consoles, and buying those games, and keeping the game companies happy. Either way you make money (once you stop taking a loss on the console.)

Guess what? You are not a customer of Google, either. You are their product! The advertisers are the customers. Is this a bad thing? Of course not, because everyone's needs are being served, at an acceptable cost.

Simple truth, though, is that either way it's a business decision. It really doesn't matter if we're talking about Xbox 360 warranties, or the number of perforations between sheets of bumwad.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[antis0c]

I really don't think that analogy fits very well. I was a release day Xbox 360 owner, yup I waited in line outside a Best Buy for 18 hours. Sure it may seem extreme, but it was a fun experience. My Xbox 360 has worked flawlessly since release, and only recently fell victim to the Red Ring of Death. 5 minutes on Microsoft's Xbox support site, I had an order placed for a return shipping box and prepaid shipping label, arrived 3 days later. Shipped my Xbox 360 back 1 day later, 8 days later, I received a brand new Xbox 360, no charge involved. I know people have horror stories but generally my experience was very good. So calling an Xbox 360 a condemned building I think is a bit extreme.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ballmer chair jokes aren't funny anymore.

Re:What purpose would it serve?

[archkittens]

who modded that troll? more importantly, why does he/she/it think that my assertion that microsoft's resources would be better spent elsewhere than supporting iffy products constitutes trolling? maybe they objected to my exaggerated failure rate? the fact that the Xbox360 has a number of glaring flaws is well documented. and lets face it folks, the fact of the matter is that you cant spend all your money supporting the old one if you want to make something you wont have to support so much. microsoft's already spent so much losing the HD format war with sony, and spent so much on replacing/repairing failed 360s, there's no way that even microsoft has the resources to keep this sort of thing up. i'll admit, i've got a fair few negative things to say about microsoft and it's actions in the market, but i think you should all give the idea that it might make a smart move some credit. extending the lives of the xbox360 and windowsXP was a dumb move, financially and strategically. if they would simply spend time and money on newer, better products (and maybe a discount if you've got a broken xbox), would magic a good portion of the problems away. all that being said, what pleases content providers and what pleases gamers is different, and i honestly believe both need to be made a bit angry for a moment in the interests of progress. it's a risk, yes, but some real stability and extensibility in the operating system of both personal computers and video game consoles created by the company would be vastly superior to the status quo.

Add-on or built in?

[techstar25]

All articles seem to point to a new 360 SKU with "built in" Bluray, so are we to believe that they have abandoned the "add-on" idea? It seems to me that an "add-on" would be better as it would prevent the alienation of the early adopters.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[NoobixCube]

I bought a 360 because, at the time, it was about $200 cheaper (Australian dollars. So just short of equal value to USD, but double the price). Right within my budget, if I had the audacity to want to afford games. Now, if I want to watch Blu-ray, I'm apparently told I have to buy ANOTHER 360. What a surprise. Shafted by Microsoft. Who'd have thought? Sorry. No sale. If I could afford another 360, I'd save for just a little longer and get a PS3.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[CastrTroy]

By the time MS releases this, there will probably be a $99 BluRay player available at Walmart, Or whatever the Australian equivalent is. Now that Blu Ray is the clear winner, people won't be so hesitant to buy them, and prices will drop.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if people don't hesitate to buy Blu Ray players, then prices won't drop. If you can sell something $500, then why sell it $400?

Re:Add-on or built in?

[Anonymous Coward]

As an early adopter let me just say this:

I don't care about BluRay. No, it's "neat" and all, but compared to say xbox live and media center functionality, it's pretty lame. My 360 has created a demand, and it may eventually sell a bluray player, but that demand is for a massive home media server. Something that can hold all my media, cute kitteh pictures, entire DVD collections, every future NFL season for my team in HD, and what the hell as long as I'm throwing down 2k on HDs why not toss in a bluray drive too.

I'll probably replace my current early 360 at some point. 20 GB isn't a lot of HD space. Colorstream cables are a pain in the ass. But bluray isn't an accutrement of consequence. SD card support, that would be killer. Smaller. More reliable. Quieter. All more important. It's not that bluray is bad. Looks beautiful. It's that I've seen the future and the future is the network. Buy the time people are regularly producing games with 50 GB of content, the prefered delivery method will probably be the network anyway. One day soon discs will be for old people and museums.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[hairyfeet]

Actually Blu Ray hasn't been selling better since the death of HD DVD. They have a few theories but I think that for a lot of folks out there(like me) DVD is good enough. DVD is easy to backup,cheap, and with an upscaling player looks good enough on most folks sets. There are also a ton of SDTV sets out there and it will be a long time before they are all replaced. Let's face it,it just isn't as big a deal for most folks. With VHS the tapes were clunky, got eaten by the machine, looked crappier everytime you played them,etc. But my 10 year old DVDs look and play just fine on the 1024x768 monitor I use for entertainment. But that is my 02c,YMMV.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[MBGMorden]

It's a little more complex than that.

20,000 people might be willing to buy them at $500. With that volume, it might cost $350 to manufacture.

If 25,000 people are willing to pay $375, but the manufacturing costs only drop to $300, then it makes sense to keep the price higher and sell less.

If 1 million are willing to pay $150 though, and the manufacturing costs drops down to $125, then it's worth it at that point to drop the price in order to sell more, and lower the production cost.

In the old scenario (before the death of HD-DVD), the people who were buying at a high price were early adopters, and the number of buyers wasn't likely to increase nearly as much with a price drop as it is now.

So, even though people are now more willing to buy them, we'll likely still see a price drop soon. ATM they're still sucking up all the techies who want it and are willing to pay the high prices but who didn't want to buy before the "format war" was decided. Once revenue there wanes they'll drop the price and pickup the next round of customers willing to pay the new price.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[Danse]

All articles seem to point to a new 360 SKU with "built in" Bluray, so are we to believe that they have abandoned the "add-on" idea? It seems to me that an "add-on" would be better as it would prevent the alienation of the early adopters. Early adopters? I just got my 360 in December. I definitely don't consider myself an early adopter, but I would also be pissed if they didn't make an add-on blu-ray player available. That is, unless there aren't going to be any blu-ray games coming out. If it's just for movies and such, I don't really care.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[NoobixCube]

In my experience, the only people who need Blu Ray or HD DVD at home are people who want it for bragging rights. A friend of mine (rich bastard) has a huge HD TV, with a resolution of 1080p. Standard definition DVDs look fine on that. I think the only real use for them is in cinema. However, although I don't know what they do in other countries, Australian cinemas still stubbornly use traditional film, since every manager of any department other than IT is a Luddite. Why should I have to wait for a courier to bring a canister of film here? Surely cinemas could download a movie in a high resolution from a franchise server. Or even from the movie studio, if they ever get over their fear of digital distribution. Then the cinemas would be able to do more screenings of popular movies, and take almost no financial risk (beyond the risk of screening a different movie) when they want to screen a low budget independent film. Sorry - I went WAY off topic there. Anyway, to remind people who lost interest half way through that post, my point was nobody really needs high definition movies... Unless they've got very good eyesight.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[CastrTroy]

However, the amount of money gained in BluRay isn't just in the player, it's in the movies people buy to put in the player.In your scenario, they make more with selling them at $500, but not when you account for the extra 5000 people who are buying movies. Besides, they are probably selling for much closer to cost then your numbers point out. They don't care how much they make off the players. They really want people buying the movies.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[marshallbanana6]

"Why should I have to wait for a courier to bring a canister of film here?"

... Is it a long wait?

Re:Add-on or built in?

[NoobixCube]

Depending on where you are, you could wait more than a week after the official release before a movie gets to your local cinema. It may not seem like much of a problem in other, more densely populated countries, but Australia has a lot of sprawling rural areas, more than a day's drive from the nearest real city. Even here, in Mackay, we get movies a few days late, at least. Or not at all, unless it's a big budget instant blockbuster like Iron Man. Mackay isn't even a rural area, either. A population of a few hundred thousand (if I remember correctly). If the movie studios distributed their movies digitally, there would be a lot less of a wait for people not in capitol cities.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[Guppy06]

"It seems to me that an "add-on" would be better as it would prevent the alienation of the early adopters."

OK, so I'm sounding like a broken record in this thread, but...

Microsoft's stance has repeatedly been "Fuck the early adopters." Their HDMI cables need a special disclaimer sticker to keep early adopters from buying it, while the DRM scheme was never designed to allow upgrading hard drives or replacing a broken or otherwise inferior console unit. Expect the PR spin to be similar to what it was when the Elite came out.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[Anonymous Coward]

So.. you want an easily upgradeable HDD, in a good media center for your lounge room (with WiFi).. with SD card support that is quieter than an Xbox..
Sounds like you really want a PS3... then you can have blu-ray as a bonus!

Plus being black and silver it also looks like it belongs with your Hi-Fi gear and doesn't just look like one of your kids toys.

Re:Add-on or built in?

[rtechie]

Um?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/937279/en-us

Consoes Reveiw

[calebt3]

I really enjoyed this reveiw of the consoles. Needs flash.

That would be "Consoles", "Consoes"

[calebt3]

n/t

Killer Features

[CopaceticOpus]

There are only a few real killer features that separate one console from another. Integrated Blu-Ray movie support was the PS3's biggest advantage. If the 360 can manage this and beat the PS3 on price, Sony may be screwed.

The 360's killer feature is Xbox Live. They nailed it, and it's going to be a license for them to print money just as Windows has been. Even if Sony comes out with better online support, it's too late. What good does that do when all your friends are on Microsoft's service?

This may be a death blow to the PS3, because it may not have anything left to offer over the 360. Better reliability and the ability to run Linux in a limited environment aren't going to be enough.

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no prize for 'most insanely delusional fanboy post' - why are you trying so hard?

Re:Killer Features

[Lije Baley]

Indeed, if the 360's Blu-ray support is as good as the PS3's, Sony will be in serious pain. I have been planning to get PS3 as a Blu-ray player, but I'd much rather have just a 360.

Re:Killer Features

[samkass]

So you're saying that even thought the PS3 has been seriously outselling the XBox360 all year worldwide, that suddenly everyone's friends are going to be on Microsoft's service? The Blu-Ray addition is a stopgap measure on Microsoft's part to try to pull back into 2nd place in the console wars, but since they're way behind the curve there's no way they're going to be able to manufacture them as cheaply as Sony. I don't think the PS3 has anything to worry about from Microsoft-- it's the Wii that remains the console to beat and I don't see this changing the game much.

Re:Killer Features

[Akaihiryuu]

Indeed. The Wii is going to win the "console war" this generation for outright sales. The PS3 will be the console of choice for the more "hardcore" games. Not saying that the Wii won't have any, but a lot of "big" games like MGS4 are going to PS3-only. The 360 is basically dead everywhere but the US. 360 sales in Japan are abysmal, not even close to what the original Xbox sold (and even it did terribly there). I've owned a Wii since launch day, and I'm going to get a PS3 once the price goes down a bit more.

Re:Killer Features

[Kohath]

Sony also has more, better first-party exclusive games coming out in the future. And the PS3 isn't as loud as the 360 so your movie watching experience won't have as much fan noise.

The 360 and the PS3 are both good systems. XBox Live is indeed an advantage. There's no need for the console war propaganda posts. Having two excellent competing choices is better for gamers.

Re:Killer Features

[WinterSolstice]

I really hope that isn't true. I have really enjoyed my 360, and while I was a big fan of the PS2, the PS3 just hasn't done it for me.

So, for now at least, I'm 360 all the way.

Re:Killer Features

[geminidomino]

... a lot of "big" games like MGS4 are going to PS3-only.... Of course, that's what they said about MGS2 and MGS3...

Re:Killer Features

[CopaceticOpus]

I can see where I'd look like a fanboy, but honestly I don't care about that. I'm just someone sitting on the fence for both HD movies and for newer consoles. I'm still enjoying my PS2, but eventually I may find the 360 too hard to resist, even if Microsoft is the last company I'd want to support.

I agree that competition is good, and I hope the PS3 will remain a strong player.

Re:Killer Features

[Neoprofin]

A little part of me died when they stopped doing backwards computability. How hard is it for a $400 PS3 to emulate a $100 PS2?

If they hadn't dropped that, I'd be kicking my old, dusty, 1st gen PS2 to the curb right now and replacing with something sleek and shiny.

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS3 will be the console of choice for the more "hardcore" games. Wow. I follow the console wars for fun (I don't own any next-gen systems), and I have to say this is pretty funny. I remember for months and months people were proclaiming that the PS3 was at death's door and that the 360 is THE choice for hardcore gamers.* I guess if there's one thing I've learned from this generation, it's not to buy into hype. Armchair game industry analysis is still a fun time waster though.

*Apparently the actual April 2008 NPD numbers suggest that Sony is catching up, but not quite in second yet.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/04/18/sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-spin-npd-numbers-we-investigate

Re:Killer Features

[Akaihiryuu]

MGS3 is PS2-only. It was never ported to any other platforms.

Re:Killer Features

[Akaihiryuu]

To be fair, the backward compatibility involved putting the complete PS2 hardware (basically PS2 on a chip) in the PS3, and this raised the cost of an already expensive system. The software backward compatibility in the later PS3's has a lot of problems, it doesn't work properly with a lot of games. I'm fine with keeping my PS2 for PS1 and PS2 games (but then I have one of the newer slim silver ones, my ex got the older PS2 when we broke up).

Re:Killer Features

[Akaihiryuu]

If you're interested in American-style games (PC ports, FPS's, driving games, etc), then you'll be fine with the 360. I'm pretty sure the 360 will take the #2 spot in the US. If you're interested in Japanese games though (like I am), then the 360 would be your LAST choice (as the system is basically dead in Japan now).

Re:Killer Features

[Akaihiryuu]

Big difference. The 360 IS in #2 worldwide, but that's only because of the US. I'm pretty sure that the PS3 is not going to surpass the 360 in the US, because the 360 has and will continue to have most of the American-style games (FPS's, driving games, PC ports, etc). So I guess it depends on your point of view. If your view of big games concerns American-style FPS's and games like that, then the 360 is probably the right choice for you. If your view of big games is Japanese games like MGS4, then you'd be far better off with a PS3, as the 360 is dead in Japan. So this is my prediction: US: #1 - Wii, #2 - 360, #3 - PS3 Japan: #1 - Wii, #2 - PS3, #3 - 360 Worldwide: #1 - Wii, #2 - Tie (360/PS3) I don't like American style FPS games, I like plot-heavy Japanese games like MGS. I'm not so much into Final Fantasy games, but I do like a lot of Square/Enix games, and none of those are ever going to be on 360 as the system is dead in Japan.

Re:Killer Features

[Why2K]

And the PS3 isn't as loud as the 360 so your movie watching experience won't have as much fan noise. This is a point that most people don't think of. I have both a PS3 and an XBox360/HD-DVD addon, and they both sound like someone is operating a leaf blower in the room when trying to watch a movie, although the PS3 does have a slight edge in this department.

Re:Killer Features

[Lije Baley]

Let me guess, your ex dumped you after the fourth time you told her she was "dead in Japan".

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

> If the 360 can manage this and beat the PS3 on price, Sony may be screwed.

Sony won't be screwed as long as people take quality in consideration in addition to price.

360 DVD playback is really bad, even if they manage to fix that and have BluRay playback comparable to the PS3 or standalone players, there's still the high failure rate and ludicrously loud fans of the console itself.

Microsoft and Sony are trying to achieve different things, and it is evident in their offerings.

> The 360's killer feature is Xbox Live.

Which only about half the 360 owners will ever use (even though it's free) and just a small portion of those will actually subscribe to.

Re:Killer Features

[Zelos]

The newer PS3s (40gb 65nm version) are a fair bit quieter than the old versions, I believe. The consume about 30% less power as well. I've read that the new Elite 360s are quieter as well since they switched to a new chipset.

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all year. Microsoft wasn't lying about the post-halo console shortage. Last month the 360 once again outsold the PS3.

Re:Killer Features

[donaldm]

I have one of the Australian 60GB PS3 and it is software backwards compatible however it does still use the PS2 graphics engine and over 85% of PS2 games work flawlessly on it. Of course this does not help when your favourate PS2 game does not play or even worse freezes randomly.

Personally I mainly play PS2 games on my PS3 (most recent release PS2 games play fine) since the PS3 does an excellent job smoothing and upscaling on a HDTV. In addition I can get three to four PS2 games to one PS3 game so I do save money. At the moment there are only four PS3 games I want to play but I have so many good PS2 games to choose from that I can wait for the price of particular PS3 games that I want to drop.

All PS3's play just about all PS1 games and it does a very good job smoothing and upscaling to a 720p or 1080p HDTV than a PS2 could ever do.

Re:Killer Features

[Fross]

http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?cons1=Wii&reg1=All&cons2=PS3&reg2=All&cons3=X360&reg3=All&start=39201&end=39565 says otherwise. In the last 5 months or so, the PS3 has been steadily outselling the 360, by 20-30%, but earlier in the year, the Xbox had the edge. During the last 12 months, the 360 has sold about 8.8 million units, the PS3 about 8.9 million. (from http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?cons1=Wii&reg1=All&cons2=PS3&reg2=All&cons3=X360&reg3=All&start=39201&end=39565&weekly=1 )

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

No Square/Enix games on 360? They are currently working on a dual platform release titled The Last Remnant

Re:Killer Features

[Anonymous Coward]

Its too late for the xbox 360 to overcome ps3's start on being considered the 'Blu-ray player'.. this will only ever be a novelty add-on (like the HD-DVD player) until the next version of the xbox (720 or whatever) comes around, when it won't be an issue.

Not to mention that adding in the cost of the drive will bring the price of the xbox more in to line with that of the ps3 anyway.

Also there isn't going to be any "death blows" to either the xbox or ps3 as they both have a large enough market share to co-exist.

Re:Killer Features

[geminidomino]

You're right. I mistook "Subsistence" for a cross-platform release like MGS2's "Substance"

Doesn't change anything, though. After MGS3, I'm less than impressed with the series, so if they go PS3 only, that's one less copy they sell rather than prompting me to buy a new system for it.

Same for Final Fantasy MCMLIV

Re:Killer Features

[ivan256]

They only removed it from the cheapest model. If you want it, just go get the one that has it.

And it's worth it, too. The software emulation upscales the games. Lots of PS2 games look *fantastic* upscaled.

Re:Killer Features

[WinterSolstice]

If by Japanese games you mean Final Fantasy, anything by Square Enix, and Devil May Cry? I'm ok with that :)
I'm quite happy with Guitar Hero, Rockband, Oblivion, my huge pile of FPS games, GTA, race games, Halo, Assassin's Creed, etc.

Eeeentaresting....

[otis wildflower]

... QUIETER Bluray drive, 20gb disk or greater, HDMI, IR remote for Harmony compatibility, at say $299?

SOLD.

Re:Eeeentaresting....

[ivan256]

$299?

Sorry, I was going to say more in this post, but I was too busy laughing.

The 360 Elite is $450. There's no way the Elite+BluRay is going to be less than $450.

Still a rumor...

[Anonymous Freak]

I always found these "confirmed!" stories that are still just rumors funny. Yeah, it may very well be a rumor that is true, but at this point, it's still a rumor.

I won't take it as anything other than a rumor until I see indisputable photographic proof, or a press release from Microsoft.

How many Xbox 360 revisions have they released?

[master5o1]

It's got to be about 10 by now.

Re:How many Xbox 360 revisions have they released?

[John Betonschaar]

Not that many, in fact. There's the Arcade (used to be core) without a hard drive, the Premium with a 20GB HD and the Elite with a 120GB HD. In between there have been a few mobo/die shrink revisions but you can't really call that 'new versions' as they add or remove no functionality whatsoever.

Now as for the PS3, you have:
1) the 20GB with full backwards compatibility, 4x usb, cardreader
4) the 40GB with full BC, 4x USB, cardreader
2) the 80GB with full BC, 4x USB, cardreader
3) the 60GB with partial BC, 4x USB, cardreader
4) the 40GB without any BC, 2x USB, no cardreader
5) the 80GB without BC, 2x USB, no cardreader

I probably missed a few combinations, I think there's a 120GB version coming as well, and they also did a die shrink on the CPU in between.

Re:How many Xbox 360 revisions have they released?

[master5o1]

Confusion and pointless upgrades wins? I think not. I like it how Nintendo hasn't said "Fuck You" and released a DVD-capable, HD-Def or xGB version of the Wii.

Re:How many Xbox 360 revisions have they released?

[assassinator42]

I'd count the mobo revisions as new versions. Especially the ones that added HDMI to the Arcade and "Premium" models. And the Arcade is different than the Core, it includes a wireless controller and memory card.

Confirmation

[russlar]

Does Netcraft confirm it?

What's your point?

[Kohath]

Did you have the right to know Microsoft's future plans 6 months ago? Does Microsoft have the right to know yours?

Why should they pre-announce a new feature 9-12 months in advance? People might wait to buy an XBox 360 until then. And sales would go down for 360s and fewer games would be made, and Microsoft shareholders would lose, and current 360 owners would lose. I wonder why they might lie?

What would you do? Tell the truth and screw over the 360 owners and the MS shareholders?

Re:What's your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps because lying is immoral. Even those who obey strict rationality / utilitarianism would come to the same conclusion: if I lie, people will not trust me, or my word on my products / warranties / commitment to the customer in the future.

I see your point, but a much better way of handling things without giving away your plans is to blanketly state "we do not comment on unannounced products," similar to most other major corporations.

Re:What's your point?

[Ohrion]

BAD MODERATION! Why would he get moderated as a troll? It's a very good point he makes, even if it's not popular. He's right, it IS in the company's best interest. I sure wish I knew the truth though...

Re:What's your point?

[Ohrion]

Moderation fixed...

Re:What's your point?

[donscarletti]

There is a huge difference between not telling the truth and lying. Not telling the truth is declining to comment to keep a secret without being deceptive, in most countries that is always an individual's right outside of court and even inside court when you're the one on trial, a company also doesn't have that right when dealing with shareholders and certain commissions, but that's a different matter. Lying is saying something that you know to be false which is a completely distinct matter.

Now there are plenty of people out there who condone this in some circumstances, but it is my belief that if someone shows you enough respect to take your word at face value, then you owe it to them to allow them to make their decisions with the right facts nomatter the consequences. If Microsoft was to change the subject, or take another path in deception, like continuing to sling mud at Blueray that would just be sly because they had never given their word. But when you ask someone to trust you by making a public statement then say the opposite of what you know to be true, then it is nothing short of betrayal.

The 360 owners wouldn't be disadvantaged, it doesn't affect them if other people do or don't buy XBoxes. As for the MS shareholders, they own part of what Microsoft is really worth, not what it can be built up to through deception, if they can be better served through a lie who cares? That same lie is depriving shareholders of Blueray affiliated companys the value that their stock should have. As a whole, the world is almost always better served by truth.

Re:What's your point?

[Cornflake917]

Even those who obey strict rationality / utilitarianism would come to the same conclusion: if I lie, people will not trust me, or my word on my products / warranties / commitment to the customer in the future. If someone lies to me because they know it's a bad time to tell the truth to me or they want to protect me(trust me, there are situations where this can happen), I wouldn't necessarily stop trusting them. Not saying I trust MS, but they've done worse things to upset me.

Also, saying "we do not comment on unannounced products" pretty much admits that the product in question exists.

Re:What's your point?

[RobertM1968]

Did you have the right to know Microsoft's future plans 6 months ago?

No... and I for one dont particularly care. This one was obvious, regardless of what Microsoft previously claimed. Either that, or they would be stuck waiting for BR's replacement and playing the same game all over again.

The simple answer to them announcing they are doing this (in relationship to the fact that they previously said they arent) is "Who cares? They are now... whether because they changed their minds or were lying or because one team (marketing) wasnt talking to the other team."

The more appropriate questions are, how will it work? How will it compare to the PS3's BR support? Will it really and truly, fully support BR 2 specs? How will it be integrated into the system? What features or capabilities will it either be lacking or have poorly implemented? What advantages are gained from the BR support? How will it affect current gaming delivery? Will it be fully backwards compatible with all previous releases? Will the changes mean less compatibility with xBox (non-360) releases, more or be irrelevant to that topic?

(I think) there are smarter aspects of this to discuss than "Gee they lied" or "Was it our business/right to know their plans months in advance?"

Yeah, I do think they could have been a little more vague in answering in the past... a simple "We will evaluate the decision on whether to include (or not) BR into future consoles" (or something similar). But then again, it is a good way to drive up stock prices when needed (for instance, in light of them dropping their Yahoo bid)... but that still has less relevance to the more important aspects/questions I outlined above... (at least in my opinion).

Does Microsoft have the right to know yours?

Well, they seem to think so - but that's not relevant to this conversation (and there are tons of threads devoted to their advertising and data mining efforts and patents in that area, so I wont even go into it any further), so I am not sure what it's relationship is to BR and the xBox360... :-)

Re:What's your point?

[vux984]

Also, saying "we do not comment on unannounced products" pretty much admits that the product in question exists.

Not if your smart enough to reply that way when asked about products that don't exist too...

Hey Microsoft, are you going to realease Windows for the Cell processor?
  "we do not comment on unannounced products"

Are you going to release a universal remote to compete with logitech's harmony?
  "we do not comment on unannounced products"

What did we learn? not much.

Re:What's your point?

[rtb61]

Now that is what makes the whole issue about the lie so immature and childish. M$ knew they were stuck, everybody knew they were stuck, with HD gone and Bluray remaining they had no choice, everybody knew they had no choice.

M$ ranted on about HD and threw away millions of dollars on a dead end hardware product for their game consoles, threw away even more millions on trying to force HD as the only choice and put their reputation and illusion of technological dominance behind HD.

So like some spoiled brat that has been caught out, they stick with a childish lie that made absolutely no sense to hide their failure, and this for M$ has been a major failure. A real sign that M$ is becoming redundant in tech business.

Re:What's your point?

[rtechie]

If Microsoft was to change the subject, or take another path in deception, like continuing to sling mud at Blueray that would just be sly because they had never given their word. But when you ask someone to trust you by making a public statement then say the opposite of what you know to be true, then it is nothing short of betrayal. There STILL is no confirmation from MS that they're including Blu-Ray drive in the 360. And what you call "lying" my simply be a change in corporate strategy. I know that a year ago MS was fully committed to downloadable video and internally considered BOTH of the HD formats "stillborn" and believed downloaded video was/is the future.

Toshiba simply gave MS a large pile of money to make a the HD-DVD add-on. It was video-only, and MS had made it very clear that NO 360 game would ever be released on HD-DVD. I seriously doubt that Sony is willing to give MS a pile of money for a Blu-Ray add-on, and MS has NO interest in putting games on Blu-Ray (given the technical problems in doing so). There have been rumors of a "PVR" version of the 360, much like Sony's PSX, that might include a Blu-Ray drive, but not an add-on.

What may actually be happening here is that a THIRD PARTY is making a Blu-Ray add-on for the 360.

Re:What's your point?

[RobertM1968]

twitter, is that you? Do we all need to add yet another name to the "twitter alias list"?

:-)

You mean killing feature

[SuperKendall]

The 360's killer feature is Xbox Live. They nailed it, and it's going to be a license for them to print money just as Windows has been. Even if Sony comes out with better online support, it's too late. What good does that do when all your friends are on Microsoft's service?

Because a lot more casual gamers prefer free online service to a pay service.

Even some hardcore gamers prefer that...

It's the feature that kept me from getting a 360 until I finally broke down and got a PS3 for Blu-Ray - and for future free online games, because I don't play often enough to pay for said service.

Marketing to hardcore gamers can sell you ten or twenty million consoles.

Marketing to more casual gamers ALSO gives you 100-300 MILLION console sales...

Re:The Incompetence Is Staggering Either Way

[jaxtherat]

Citations please... Otherwise mister AC, you're full of it.

What does victory look like?

[sammy baby]

Actually Blu Ray hasn't been selling better since the death of HD DVD. They have a few theories but I think that for a lot of folks out there(like me) DVD is good enough. DVD is easy to backup,cheap, and with an upscaling player looks good enough on most folks sets. I have no way of backing this up, but I would guess that I'm fairly typical: I spent so much time waiting for a clear victor in this format war that by the time one appeared, I wasn't sure I even wanted one anymore. I mean, I'm sure I'll wind up with one at some point - when the price drops substantially (it hasn't yet) or when my 360 dies and the replacement comes out. But otherwise, I think I waited long enough that "okay, this is gonna be the format, honest" isn't enough of a justification to get me to buy one anymore.

And besides - my primary computer is a laptop, and I just don't have enough space to rip high def to my laptop willy-nilly. (See also, reasons why I don't want a 22 megapixel camera.)

Sega-CD?

[namekuseijin]

Seems like the XBox 360 is rapidly approaching Sega Genesis convoluted last days, full of failed add-ons that nobody cared...

Frankly, just gimme a standalone bluray player...

Re:Sega-CD?

[BarneyL]

The problem Sega had was that you had to buy the new hardware (Sega CD, 32X, Saturn, Dreamcast in quick succession) to play the latest games. By the time they hit the Dreamcast no one was willing to buy yet another Sega platform.
Any Xbox 360 will run any game written for the system, there is no need for the hard drive just as there is no need for a wireless controller, an HDMI output or whatever HD format you prefer. All these add choices but none are forced upon you if all you want to do is play games.
I'd rather replace my current DVD player with a standalone Bluray player too but I suspect the price saving of adding a drive to a console or PC will outweigh the inconvenience for some time.

Re:Sega-CD?

[lordholm]

This was exactly the reason that I did not get a 360 last week. I looked at the existing consoles, and the 360 came with to many options for me to bother about (and why the heck would I pay 100 pounds extra for the Elite edition when the only thing I cared about in it was the HDMI port), the PS3 was too bloody expensive. So, I ended up getting a Wii (with the added bonus of that my girlfriend actually likes the Wii-games so we can play together).

Re:Sega-CD?

[namekuseijin]

My gf likes my wii too... ;)

Re:Sega-CD?

[NeMon'ess]

The Sega-CD was not a failure. It just wasn't as big a success because the 32X got in the way.

Sony will not be screwed

[Fross]

I bet they're getting a handsome licence fee for every Blu-ray reader sold. So Microsoft will be paying them every time they sell a 360.

They've already won the format war, they have little chance of winning the console war (A large chunk of PS3 sales have been purely for its capability as a good Blu-ray player / DVD upscaler), if they're smart they'll stick to what they're making money on now and work on getting it right for the next generation.

Re:Sony will not be screwed

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm funny though, because Sony is only a partial player in the BDA which is a grouping of approximately 250 companies. Sony may have spearheaded the initial movement with other companies such as Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, and Samsung. Who are all part of the founding companies. There are 18 companies that are on the board of directors, and all that takes is paying $50,000 a year. So no, Sony does not control Blu-ray and I believe in this case they won't get significant amounts of royalties because there are so many other companies involved in the development that they are only making money on actually selling the players that they make. My assumption is that any "royalties" that are made go directly into the BDA's R&D pool of money to continue updating the Blu-ray software. If Microsoft is going to pay the minimum $3000 a year to be a member of the BDA and gain usage of the Blu-ray specs.

Yet another reason...

[Guppy06]

not to buy an Xbox 720 until well into its lifespan. Sony's first adopters can play PS2 games, Microsoft's have a smaller hard drive, no HDMI port, DRM issues that get in the way of upgrading either, and now this.

Re:Yet another reason...

[wild_quinine]

Yet another reason not to buy an Xbox 720 until well into its lifespan. Sony's first adopters can play PS2 games, Microsoft's have a smaller hard drive, no HDMI port, DRM issues that get in the way of upgrading either, and now this. And how cynical is the marketing strategy that says 'Buy now - before we take your USB ports and backwards compatibility away?'

Odd, considering it comes from the same company who lied about the importance of 'Rumble' until they had their patent issues straigtened out.

Re:Yet another reason...

[Guppy06]

"And how cynical is the marketing strategy that says 'Buy now - before we take your USB ports and backwards compatibility away?'"

But that's something that's been going on since even before Sony got into the video game business. The redesigned NES lost composite video, the redesigned SNES lost s-video, the Genesis lost backwards compatibility (more or less) and eventually Sega CD and 32-X compatibility. And this continues on, with the PlayStation losing its parallel and serial ports, the PS2 losing its HDD bay, FireWire port and a chunk of backwards compatibility, the GameCube lost its component video output... The only difference is how quickly Sony axed the PS3's backwards compatibility features. (The PSP, on the other hand... )

Until the Xbox 360, shelling out for launch prices may have made you the "first on your block" to own one, but also guaranteed that you were purchasing what would end up being the most capable, the most compatible version of the console to be released, as little-used features are removed in future revisions in the name of cost-cutting. I don't know what fraction of early adopters take this long-term view, but driving them away like this certainly can't help their launch sales for their next console.

"Odd, considering it comes from the same company who lied about the importance of 'Rumble' until they had their patent issues straigtened out."

Silly? Yes. Annoying? Yes. But I can go out and buy a DualShock 3 and use it with my PS3 out of the box with little or no headaches. But replacing the hard drive that came with my 360 involves some arcane transfer process to work around DRM, and replacing the console outright to get HDMI output (or this new BluRay capability) has even bigger DRM headaches. I've already forsworn buying new Live content after learning about what will happen if my console RRoDs and needs to be replaced.

The point is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because then there's no real reason to go for the PS3 instead of the 360 unless it has some specific game you want as things stand now. IMHO, based on facts, figures and looking into both consoles when trying to figure out which to get:

- The 360 has more games, more of which are higher rated and that sell far more units even when available on both platforms

- The 360 wins on cost, whether that'll be true with Bluray in I don't know, and whether it remains true with the XBox live cost on top I'm still not sure

- The 360 wins on downloadable content, it simply has more equally as good content

- The 360 wins on online experience, it's just better integrated, the downside of course is cost of XBox live, it's down to personal opinion whether or not people feel it's worth it

- When it comes too both consoles are pretty much as powerful so there's not much of an argument there, Cell is great but the 360s graphics card is also superior, when everything is taken into account they do balance out pretty evenly perhaps with an ever so slight edge to the PS3, whether we'll see any real edge in action though is questionable

- The 360 has better indie developer support via XNA

As it stands, the PS3 wins as a media centre simply because of Bluray support. It's also the only real futureproof Bluray player and as such if you want a Bluray player it's the best choice out there even if you never play a single game so Sony can increase sales figures by selling the PS3 as a Bluray player.

It would be silly of Microsoft not to challenge this and provide a similar offering by creating a Bluray addon or 360 with Bluray built in so that people have the same reasons to buy the 360 as they do the PS3. This is especially the case if MS can keep the cost down below that of the PS3.

The real question is what Sony's move will be in response, they'll surely have to add value to their console in some form or another - arguably this could be via Home and LittleBigPlanet so it could well be the case that Sony put more money and effort into getting these out the door as they'll be pretty major selling points.

Either way by the end of the year I'm sure there'll be plenty of reasons for people to own both consoles, why settle for just one - chances are by the end of the year or thereabouts you'll be able to buy both for the cost of the PS3 at it's original release although I suppose that's little comfort for those who already purchased.

Re:The Incompetence Is Staggering Either Way

[Sangui]

Why do you think the PC gaming market is dying? If you compare PC gaming to Console as a whole sure, but compare software sales to each system, and it's perfectly fine. People need to look at it correctly, not in the halfassed way that most do.

X360 + Blu-Ray: makes me want to buy X360!

[syn1kk]

Previously, the only reason for getting the PS3 was to avoid having to buy two expensive devices: one for games + one for the Blu-Ray playing. Now that both will have Blu-Ray ... you have to re-evaluate XBox 360 vs PS3.

XBox:
+1 price
+2 XBox multiplayer community ( ease-of-use , friends , performance )
+1 easier for developers to develop on the XBox... so XBox games are more "robust"
+1 multi-platform games are usually developed on the XBox then ported to PS3 ( resulting in more robust games on the XBox )

Vs

PS3:
+1 controller
+1 cell processor ... yeaa! umm ... 7 individual processors!
+1 more fanboy community support ( see people who pay for PS3 )

-----

XBOX at +5 is greater than PS3 at +3

XBOX is now the winner for me. Previously, the PS3 used to have blu-ray. That is like +2 or +1.

Re:X360 + Blu-Ray: makes me want to buy X360!

[wild_quinine]

PS3:
+1 controller
+1 cell processor ... yeaa! umm ... 7 individual processors!
+1 more fanboy community support ( see people who pay for PS3 )

Your math is terrible, the PS3 controller is godawful, the Cell is underwhelming and 'fanboys' are a minus ten in anyone's book.

Unless you're a fanboy in which case your opinion is worthless.

There are things the PS3 does well, but you don't list them.

Wireless

[HalAtWork]

PS3 also has built in wireless instead of asking you to buy an adapter that's almost the price of a DS which has wireless built-in too. Even PSP has wireless. Everything except 360 has wireless. Sure, it's not necessary, but charging that much for something that would be cheap to include is robbery.

One advantage to the blu-ray add-on drive

[British]

...and I will say it: a/v port savings.

You could have an Xbox + separate stand-alone Blu-ray drive, but that means having to switch tv stations, or a/v junction box settings each time you want to switch between the two.

With a blu-ray addon drive, you only need 1 set of A/V ports for all of it. As someone who has already run out of available ports, I would shoot for it if the price was right.

And Microsoft fragments the market more

[marshallbanana6]

Sucks to be you if you're one of the 10M+ people who already bought a 360 (or a few of them)! It seems stupid to put a new drive in the console now.

Let's count the number of different 360 configurations, shall we?
1. 360 with 20GB HDD
2. 360 with 120GB HDD
3. 360 with no HDD
4. 360 with any of the above and HD-DVD add-on (deceased)
5. And now... 360 with ??GB HDD and BD-ROM drive

This doesn't even account for differences in CPU die, etc! In the meantime developers are stuck designing for the LCD (least common denominator, not liquid crystal display!) so having all the extra stuff makes no difference in your games. Thanks MS, but I'll pass and get a PS3 with my HDTV.

Re:And Microsoft fragments the market more

[burgundysizzle]

In the meantime developers are stuck designing for the LCD (least common denominator, not liquid crystal display!) ...

I believe that you'll find that people will be designing for the lowest common denomintor, not least, there is a major difference between lowest and least.

While I have both consoles the PS3 is for Blu-Ray movies, the 360 is for games which to be honest are more plentiful and usually significantly cheaper in Australia (@JB HiFi). I prefer the game play on the 360 and it always scales the games to 1080p rather than the PS3 version of you'll play that at the resolution it wants you to and you'll like it!

Read this Dont buy 360's

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey too bad I've played xbox live for a while now and because the systems keep dying I had a friends list that went from 50 to about 10 because their systems RROD so by quality alone the ps3 will beat the 360 MS head start doesnt mean anything when ppls systems are dying and the sad thing is ms is hurting the industry by producing a weak faulty console. New consumers to games will shy away if they see or have a 360 die on them and 33% fail rate is garbage it's more like 85%. You get 6-8 months of gameplay then bam it dies and you have to call india because ms outsources like a mofo. But hey the worlds gonna end in 2012 or so who really cares

Too Late

[Tsoat]

For me this is far too late, I have given up on the x360 with its 20% failure rate(im guesstimating here) Why put an adaptation to something that will ineveitbly fail when you can get a blu-ray player with amazing graphics AND amazing games, al le gran turismo 5 prologue and apparently gta IV is decent. I simply cannot wait for the Iron Man dvd to meet my PS3 it will be magic.