The Mac In the Gray Flannel Suit

oDDmON oUT points us to a BusinessWeek story about the increasing use of Apple products in the corporate sector. Many companies are finding that their employees are pushing for the transition more than Apple itself. Quoting: "While thousands of other companies scratch and claw for the tiniest sliver of the corporate computing market, Apple treats this vast market with utter indifference. After a series of failed offensives by the company in the 1980s and 1990s, Chief Executive Steve Jobs decided to focus squarely on consumers and education customers when he returned to Apple in 1997. As a result, the company doesn't have ranks of corporate salespeople or armies of repairmen waiting to respond every time a hard drive fails. He believes it's difficult for any company, including his, to be effective at satisfying both corporate buyers and consumers."

Comments

Repairing em'

[Hawkeye05]

I can't imagine what it would be like having to fight that shiny white plastic in able to swap out parts... No Thanks.

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't imagine what it would be like


I'm sorry you have no imagination. Here's some help:

My wife's shiny white plastic iMac (3 years old) died on Thanksgiving. I took it to the nearest Apple store the next day, the busiest shopping day of the year. They replaced the power supply for free. I was in the store for half an hour.

I now have a mac, too.

Re:Repairing em'

[v1]

I have to admit you got lucky. There are very few parts you could count on them having in stock, and that's one of them. There was a recall (REP) on the imac g5 power supplies so they would have had a few on hand if they were sensible.

Otherwise you have to wait one whole day for the parts to come in.

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

You went to the Apple store and had it fixed? This is why Slashdot is no fun any more.

Where's the story about using a Dremel, an old VCR, a soldering iron, and a Perl script to fix it yourself?

Re:Repairing em'

[v1]

Shiny white is relatively easy. When you get to the shiny black ones, there you have trouble. All the parts are behind the LCD panel, which is behind the display bezel, which is behind that really thin large sheet of glass.

(that's 21 screws, five cables, two suction cups, and 15 minutes to get past)

And care to imagine how difficult it can be to keep from getting a spec of lint between that glass and LCD panel when servicing it?

Re:Repairing em'

[Hawkeye05]

What Im talking about is in a corporate environment.
"Oh wait lemme just take it to the Apple Store and have them fix it."
Yeah, not gonna happen.

Re:Repairing em'

[d34thm0nk3y]

Otherwise you have to wait one whole day for the parts to come in.

In a business environment "one whole day" of downtime can be very expensive.

Re:Repairing em'

[CSMatt]

3-step process for repairing Macs:

1. Throw away defunct Mac
2. Buy new Mac
3. Profit!!!

Re:Repairing em'

[MoonBuggy]

Any of the iSight or newer white ones have much the same arrangement, actually, but sans glass (I thought it was plastic, but I may be wrong). The worst of it is the adhesive metal tape around the LCD - it's difficult to remove, sticks to everything and generally gets in the way.

The repairability of Apple machines seems to be very oddly hit or miss - the original white G5 iMacs are a pleasure to work on; the main components are even held on their own sub-assembly meaning that it's a relatively quick job to separate the computer from the LCD despite them being in the same case. Suddenly they switch to the setup you described above and it's almost more effort than its worth to deal with the things.

Re:Repairing em'

[Kreschurb]

I agree about Apple products being hit or miss for accessibility to components. I have a PowerBook G4 550 that I replaced the hard disk in a couple years ago and it was a simple exercise. This weekend, however, I had to remove the hard disk from an iBook and it was a nightmare!

Re:Repairing em'

[aesiamun]

I just replaced the keyboard, bottom case and battery connector to my first gen macbook (white). It took about 2 hours and about $200. Apple would have charged me more than that and I refuse to pay for apple care from a previous debacle.

I don't see the problem with fixing it yourself. The parts are easily available from iFixit and the time it took wasn't that far above what I expected for a complete tear down and build up of a laptop.

Re:Repairing em'

[Henry V .009]

We support 3 Macs out of 200 computers in our labs. We used to have a lab full of them, but nobody ever used it.

Apple's warranty service is execrable. We had one machine sit there broken waiting on a new motherboard for 6 months.

The replacement motherboard gave out last month (the extended warranty expired last year), and we had to take it down to the Apple store, because we can't just buy a replacement part like we could for a PC.

Macs are just fine for personal use, but Windows is far better in a lab environment. It's easier to administrate, reasonably easy to keep secure, and very easy to buy hardware and software for.

Re:Repairing em'

[multisync]

Not sure how you could do better than a day. We get next day from Dell, and we pay a lot for that coverage. Spend five minutes answering the usual questions (capacitors budging? LEDs flashing? Did you try turning it off and on again?), and the next day I receive either a power supply, a mother board or one a new drive via UPS. Return old part in same box and never give it another thought.

Blackberrys, OTOH, just get wiped and returned to RIM. I would think you would do that with a Mac, too. I wouldn't even know how to open one up, and if I did manage to get it open I'd feel the same way I feel when I look under the hood of any modern vehicle. Where's the damn carburetor?

So I guess the question for me would be does Mac offer a next day replacement service, and what does it cost? We'll leave aside for now what to do about the proprietary, Windows only software that our customer base compels us to use.

Re:Repairing em'

[aesiamun]

The macbook is three screws. Remove the battery, remove the three screws on towards the inside of the machine in the battery door, remove that cover the screws were holding onto, pull the drive out.

Re:Repairing em'

[jimicus]

In a business environment "one whole day" of downtime can be very expensive. They're called spares.

At current PC prices, you'd be nuts not to have at least one or two (more if you're a large business).

Re:Repairing em'

[noewun]

Where's the damn carburetor?

On a Mac it's right between the flux capacitor and the dilithium crystal matrix.

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

In a business environment where one whole day is very expensive, you should have a plan for when this happens. Stuff breaks down and if that's going to cost you $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ then spend $$$ on a second computer.

Re:Repairing em'

[Yvan256]

Uhoh, I think I just sent the files to myself in 1988. Damn you Time Machine!

Re:Repairing em'

[flydpnkrtn]

Whoooosh!

It was just a little /. humor on a Sunday.. relax man

Re:Repairing em'

[drsmithy]

The repairability of Apple machines seems to be very oddly hit or miss - the original white G5 iMacs are a pleasure to work on; the main components are even held on their own sub-assembly meaning that it's a relatively quick job to separate the computer from the LCD despite them being in the same case. Suddenly they switch to the setup you described above and it's almost more effort than its worth to deal with the things.

Yes, but that probably saved 1/3" in depth, so of _course_ it's worth the servicability tradeoff ;).

Re:Repairing em'

[david.emery]

Well, out of the 15 Macs I've owned, only 3 have ever needed repairs. The two laptops were covered under AppleCare extended warranty, and the desktop failed within the 1 year standard warranty:

My previous Powerbook lost a motherboard while I was on the road. I dropped it off at the Newport Beach CA Apple Store about 7:00 PM Thursday night, and it was shipped back to my Tyson's Corner VA store by the following Tuesday afternoon.

That same Powerbook had its screen latch break twice. Both times I drove from Northern VA to a Mac authorized repair place in Bethesda for a while-you-wait repair.

Considering that PowerBook lasted 3 1/2 years of 80% travel, it was entitled to have a few problems. The latch was more than cosmetic, but did not prevent me from using it.

A refurb G5 had a motherboard problem that was repaired in 48 hours, again at the Tyson's VA Apple Store.

A couple of weeks ago, my MacBook Pro hard drive failed. They had the replacement in stock at the Tyson's Apple Store and I got it back in about 4 hours. (A good thing, since I was getting ready to leave for CA again the next day...)

I have had 3rd party memory and 3rd party disk drives go bad, but that's not Apple's fault.

I've also had 2 PowerBook power supplies replaced under extended warranty.

During the same period that I had that PowerBook, I don't think -anyone- with a Windows laptop (Dell, Toshiba, etc) had one last more than about 2 1/2 years under the same travel regime. And when theirs failed, there was no Dell store/Toshiba store to go for help.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I get pretty good service out of my Macs. The desktops last an average of 4-5 years before I replace them, the laptops are supposedly on a 3 year replacement schedule but I'll usually keep them a bit longer since they're bought from company overhead.

dave

Re:Repairing em'

[Hungus]

Macs are just fine for personal use, but Windows is far better in a lab environment. It's easier to administrate, reasonably easy to keep secure, and very easy to buy hardware and software for. I never found it difficult to set up a single image and have the 35 macs in our lab all netboot off of it. Need to upgrade software? Change the disk image, need to return a mac to its base install , reboot it, not a lot of administration required. The Macs are more secure than Windows either out of the box or properly secured. HArdware nd softwre? The only issue i ever had was gps software for personal use and i just went with an opensource solution. Your response simply shows that you have not been trained to administer a lab.

Re:Repairing em'

[CSMatt]

You lost a PowerBook motherboard?

How on Earth did you manage to misplace just the motherboard?

Re:Repairing em'

[alittlespice]

5 minutes on the phone with Dell? Are you kidding? I've never been on the phone for less than 5 hours with Dell. They're insane.
I can tell them exactly what the issue is right away, and they'll still make me go through all the tests to prove that what I'm telling them is in fact the problem. We have 4 hour service from them, yet, that 4 hours doesn't count until after they acknowledge what the problem is, it's not 4 hours from when you say you have a problem.
Also, for servers that we have next day service on, they also like to make you wait on the phone just past their shipping deadline for the day, so that you don't actually get the parts until two days later.

Re:Repairing em'

[DittoBox]

With my Dell warranty at work, the guy generally shows up the next morning or that afternoon and fixes it right in front of me. No driving, no BS. Just call the American tech support, talk for a few minutes and then they either overnight a part and I can do it myself or they send the guy out.

No travel involved, other than to the front desk at work. Easy easy easy.

Re:Repairing em'

[Kjella]

Where's the story about using a Dremel, an old VCR, a soldering iron, and a Perl script to fix it yourself? Hey! Who leaked the script of the new MacGuyver movie?

Re:Repairing em'

[kesuki]

you forgot the stick of bubble gum, but we'll forgive you...

if you miss stories of the past, shortly after i got my first cable modem, it started having problems, i lived in my sister's basement at the time (and worked at taco hell) so i had to go to the computer store by my work, buy a $2.50 cent pack of chipset coolers, then on a whim, i figured out how to use an old univeral power AC/CD adaptors and a piece of duct tape to fix up the old heatsink fan from my 233 MHZ amd processor (that it had already replaced with a 450 MHz processor, though my board only ran it at 333 MHZ as far as it would overclock, but my board would go in 1 mhz increments with DIP switches man with dip switches) so i has 2 chipset coolers on the 2 hot chips in my cable modem, but there wasn't room inside the cable modem case, so i got out my dremel and MADE room and cut out half the slats for better airflow, and i had 1 HSF and 1 chipset cooler mod for my new cable modem, and that baby ran for 5 years straight never losing it's ip not once.

so there you go, a Dremel, $2.50 in parts plus some scavenged from a part bin, duct tape, an old used universal DC power brick, to fix a problem that should have never existed except some idiot engineer chose to believe some dumb companies marketing department claiming their chip could run 100C without a chipset cooler.

Re:Repairing em'

[Amiga Trombone]

I just replaced the keyboard, bottom case and battery connector to my first gen macbook (white). It took about 2 hours and about $200. Apple would have charged me more than that and I refuse to pay for apple care from a previous debacle. Actually, if you pay for your Mac with a Visa (and maybe some others) credit card, you can purchase a warranty extension for up to 4 years, usually at a fraction of the cost of AppleCare. Just have it repaired at the normal price, and Visa reimburses you.

Re:Repairing em'

[dal20402]

The repairability of Apple machines seems to be very oddly hit or miss

Tru dat. It's like sometimes accessibility is a design criterion, and sometimes it isn't.

The towers were a monster pain until the 8600 and beige G3 came out. They've been a snap ever since, and the Mac Pro is the best one yet...

... unless you're trying to replace a part like a motherboard or PS. Then they're still a pain, although the G5 machines were much worse than the Mac Pro.

The laptops are laptops like anyone else's, although the easy-access hard disk on the MacBook is nice. Unless you're working on a 12" iBook or 12" Powerbook -- those two designs are a nightmare from start to finish.

And the iMacs... some of them great, some terrible, nothing in between.

Re:Repairing em'

[memojuez]

I avoided that "whole scripted Q-n-A" for Laptop power supply. I told the guy I used one from another laptop and the Laptop A worked. The "bad one" didn't send juice to either laptop because the battery was discharging.

I was surprised that I still didn't get the Well, I need you to ...

Re:Repairing em'

[michrech]

You must have a shitty contract, or a pissy attitude when you get the guy on the phone (if I worked tech support and got someone who was pissed off at the world, and taking it out on me, I'd make him wait too).

Where I work, we have a web page we can log into (Warranty Parts Direct), type in the ST, put in a description of what is wrong, any Dell Diag codes you might have, what you did to troubleshoot, select the part you want replaced, and submit. There's even a spot to select whether we want on-site support or not, though since they sub-contract that to a company in St. Joseph, MO, it's almost never next day. We only use this option for mainboard replacements in laptops. Everything else, we do ourselves, because it's quicker.

There is an online chat function so you can talk with one of the techs, plus there is an 800 number to call. I've never spent more than about 5 minutes on the phone with them (I rarely ever have to call in the first place).

5 minutes on the phone with Dell? Are you kidding? I've never been on the phone for less than 5 hours with Dell. They're insane.

I can tell them exactly what the issue is right away, and they'll still make me go through all the tests to prove that what I'm telling them is in fact the problem. We have 4 hour service from them, yet, that 4 hours doesn't count until after they acknowledge what the problem is, it's not 4 hours from when you say you have a problem.

Also, for servers that we have next day service on, they also like to make you wait on the phone just past their shipping deadline for the day, so that you don't actually get the parts until two days later.

Re:Repairing em'

[klubar]

The one whole day depends on whether it's a desktop or a critical piece of infrastructure. For desktops, one or two day turn around is usually ok. However, in the case the P posted above, having take the machine into an apple store--especially on the "busiest shopping day" is really painful for a business. Most businesses, expect (and pay for) on site service. We had a disk drive on a mac go--it took nearly three hours with an non-english speaking apple "tech" to get them to agree that the disk drive was bad. The tech then insisted that we had to bring the mac to a service center (which would have taken two or three hours). Finally, we pointed out that the contract specified on-site service.

Businesses don't want to wait in line at some mall behind a bunch of consumers to get their machines fixed.

Apple really isn't interested in the business/enterprise market beyond a couple of machines in the 'creative' departments.

Re:Repairing em'

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I can't imagine what it would be like having to fight that shiny white plastic in able to swap out parts... No Thanks.

Who does their own repairs anymore? When a user's machine breaks, you give them one of the spares, pull the data across if it is possible, and ship the broken one to Apple (or whoever). Everyplace I've worked in since 2000 has done this, and some were cash strapped startups.

Re:Repairing em'

[pjt33]

Any story involving one person, a soldering iron, and a Perl script has to end in disaster. You surely know the axiom about the three most dangerous things in technology: a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware engineer with a compiler, and a user with an idea.

Re:Repairing em'

[fitten]

I'd like to see our local Apple store deal with enterprise level service from 10 or 20 of the larger companies around here...

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that:

1. Throw away defunct Mac
2. Buy new Mac
3. Loss!!!

Re:Repairing em'

[Niten]

iMacGyver?

I suppose if anyone has enough sway to bring the mullet back into style, it'd be Apple...

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

My shiny new Macbook Pro's power supply (6 months old) died on a Sunday. I took it to the nearest Apple store next Monday, a calm day without much business. Though the power supply as obviously broken and had warranty, they refused to replace it right away and insisted on sending i back to Apple. Since I need my Apple for work I had to buy a replacement. A week later I got in fact a replacement for my broken power supply back, which turned out a larger, older version.
Two weeks later my Macbook Pro died (still 6 months old), and it took them 3 weeks to fix it. 1.5 out of the three weeks it spend sitting around in the service center next to the replacement logic board, because they were apparently too busy to do the max. 1h repair on a "professional" macbook.

My next laptop won't be a mac.

Re:Repairing em'

[imamac]

That's (Apple's) Profit!!!

Re:Repairing em'

[Firehed]

Yes, for hard drives and memory. What about when your WiFi card dies? Optical drive? What if you're using a MBP (as I am) which has a thoroughly inaccessible hard drive?

I love the system for quite a number of reasons, but accessibility of hardware for repairs is absolutely not one of them. Which is probably for the better, as I've had then spent money I had no intent to spend on a hard drive upgrade at the very least.

Re:Repairing em'

[alittlespice]

I'm always dead nice to the guys on the phone. Now, our contract is just a standard, clicked 4 hour (or next day) support on the website when we purchased, and we're small so we only buy 2-5 servers a year so maybe they just don't care about us little guys.

Funny that you mention the onsite support. We used that option once, and yes, they just contracted it out to someone, but when they got to our server, in the data centre, they replaced the motherboard (which was working, but 'just in case'), with one that was completely DOA. All we needed changed was the RAID controller. Fortunately they did ship one of those too so the tech had to re-replace the motherboard with our original one and then the RAID controller, and then we were back up and running, only 3 days of downtime!

Re:Repairing em'

[jaymz2k4]

you would not believe how many companies i've seen that have a problem spending $500 on a spare machine but will bust their nuts once a machine dies. you'd think they would learn but i've found more often than not people are more willing to run with the risk :/ then again, maybe i've just seen a lot of tight-fisted companies :D

Re:Repairing em'

[evanspw]

Yeah, same deal for the intel iMacs. I replaced the hard drive in mine (I couldn't wait two or three days for the local Apple lug to do it). It was really a bastard removing the LCD panel (the tape!) and getting at the disk - there was only a few centimetres of space to work with. Also, had to glue (!) the disk drive temp sensor to the new drive. Getting the panel back in was the hardest part, and there's a point where you are manoeuvring the LCD mounting screws through a little hole in the tape, and if you lose them, sayonara. Anyway, it all worked, but took a hour and half or so, as opposed to about the 2 minutes it would take for standard box hardware.

Re:Repairing em'

[Ixitar]

Unfortunately the files exceeded the size of your available disk. That was one of those rare times that you experienced one of those system failures. Now you know why.

Re:Repairing em'

[Sadsfae]

Not sure how you could do better than a day. We get next day from Dell, and we pay a lot for that coverage Why not just get 4 hour on-site from Dell? This is pretty much the standard for any enterprise environment. Many other vendors off this too (NetApp, IBM, Rackable etc)

Re:Repairing em'

[PineGreen]

Good for you!
My wife has a macbook, which wouldn't connect of linksys WRT54G,unless it is on channel >5 (guess how many hours it took me to work this one out), wouldn't print on our printer, unless I manually recompile the linux drivers, wouldn't play my legally encoded mp3, because of a bug with how itunes do the id3 tags, would randomly start swapping the shit out due to leaky firefox (while safari doesn't work with half of the sites), is constantly bugging me to give apple some cash for either software or movies, etc., etc.

I am NOT getting a mac!

Re:Repairing em'

[simpl3x]

I walked in needing a new keyboard... Busy day, one hour.

I have yet to hear about an issue that takes very long at the store, but some examples are always welcome.

Re:Repairing em'

[mooreti1]

I can't imagine what it would be like I'm sorry you have no imagination. Here's some help: My wife's shiny white plastic iMac (3 years old) died on Thanksgiving. I took it to the nearest Apple store the next day, the busiest shopping day of the year. They replaced the power supply for free. I was in the store for half an hour. I now have a mac, too. Yes, carrying a Mac in one at a time to a repair store in a corporate environment of 1000+ users is extraordinarily obvious! How could I have been so blind!

Re:Repairing em'

[Maserati]

Well, opening the case on the white iMacs is just three captive screws. That gets you easy access to the power supply, drives, and RAM. Most of the rest is on the motherboard. the Minis and the laptops are more obnoxious to open, but the iMacs and towers are dead simple to get into.

if you're a Mac-using organization, you really need to work with Apple to get some people in IT access to order spare parts. That's available. Or you keep a couple spares around and send your hardware issues out to an authorized service provider. In the Bay Area there are two very good Mac repair shops that will pick up and drop off your repairs. Find one in your area. Their turnaround is going be pretty much however long Apple takes to get the parts to them. In the one case where one of our last G4 PowerBooks needed a part that wasn't available, after a few weeks they just sent us a MacBook Pro. This was acceptable to me.

The big catch in repairing Apple hardware is their just-in-time system for controlling parts inventory. Any glitch in the system means delays in repairs. Worse, repair providers can't keep a stock on hand. Every repair needs a case number and a serial number before parts can be ordered. It's annoying as hell sometimes.

Oh, and here's a PDF manual for one of the white plastic iMacs.

http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacg5_17inch_Power_Supply.pdf

warning: pdf link

Re:Repairing em'

[stupidflanders]

tight-fisted companies that's an oxymoron.

Re:Repairing em'

[stupidflanders]

According to Dell

The Dell Warranty Parts Direct program is a service offered to Dell customers who wish to appoint a service provider (Third Party Maintainer) to maintain their Dell hardware.

For Dell customers who have internal IT professional resources and in many cases troubleshoot and diagnose their own IT issues, Dell ProSupport for IT with Fast-Track Dispatch is available.

Re:Repairing em'

[jaymz2k4]

ok, it is of sorts, but you could hold your fist 'loosely'. you can still 'tighten' your fist up. its just rather awkward.

Re:Repairing em'

[number17]

And if you have a reimbursable service contract, Dell will reimburse you for the labour of any internal parts changed. http://warrantypartsdirect.dell.com/AP/program/T2100000.asp

Re:Repairing em'

[stewbacca]

In a business environment "one whole day" of downtime can be very expensive. Evidently it doesn't concern some companies, because our computers (Dells, in Austin, TX none-the-less) go down for weeks on end around here.

Re:Repairing em'

[stewbacca]

Well, out of the 15 Macs I've owned, only 3 have ever needed repairs. That's 3 more than me (and I've owned more than you). Oh wait...I forgot that huge showstopper (not) of the plastic slightly coming up on my current 1stGen MacBook that was fixed at an Apple Store in about 10 minutes (for free, out of warranty).

Oh yeah, and I can't forget my problem-riddled Motorola StarMax Mac Clone that was constantly needing repairs. Maybe that says something about "industry standard" components, and the supposed price benefit? Not so big a deal anymore, but I hated that argument in the mid-90s. There's a reason Apple has been consistently #1 in initial and long term quality ratings and it wasn't because they were using the same parts as Motorola (and every other PC brand out there).

Re:Repairing em'

[david.emery]

I had an APS clone that used the Motorola board, and I had no problems with that machine. Since that wasn't an Apple product, I didn't count that as one of my 15 machines...

I used good-quality RAM and drives (including a "hot drive" for the time, an enterprise-class fast-wide SCSI drive and Adaptec board :-)

dave

Re:Repairing em'

[pressman]

Flamebait award of the day!

Re:Repairing em'

[jimfrost]

Depending on when you bought the Macbook it might be a royal pain in the ass to get the drive out. I bought mine the day the Macbook went on sale. I was surprised when, as I went to pull out the drive, there was no little plastic tab as shown in both iFixit's and Apple's instructions. Apparently they had an engineering change early on that put the drive on a tray with a tab, and mine didn't have that.

Instead the drive slid into little rubber bumpers that were just press-fitted in place. There's enough friction that it was very difficult to remove, and the bumpers are flexible enough that they'd bunch up when trying to replace the drive. What should have been a 5 minute swap, tops, took more than an hour. Crazy.

I added a tab on the new drive so it will be easy next time.

Even so, that was waaaaay easier than the 12 Powerbook drive swap. 38 screws on that one, plus a bunch of easy-to-damage ribbon cable glued down with aluminum stickers. 90 minutes to swap the drive.

The G5 Quad, however, is an absolute dream to work on. You can do most things without any tools whatsoever.

I've had some issues with Apple's quality but, overall, they're about as good as anyone else I've used and far better than most. Their walk-in service can be a pain (especially if you don't make an appointment in advance) but usually the techs are knowledgeable. I've had repairs take anywhere from 1 to 5 days, with the longest times requiring notebooks to be sent down to Kentucky. In the last two years the number of repairs they can do on-site has grown significantly, although it can take a couple of days to get parts.

I'll keep buying Macs. Even if the hardware isn't perfect, even if the "Genius" Bar sometimes drives me a little crazy, the operating system is wonderful. Easy to keep running, lots of commercial application support, and without the fiddly bits of traditional UNIX or Linux.

Re:Repairing em'

[Anonymous Coward]

s/in able to/in order to
Yeah. Adding a DIMM to my iBook requires removing a bunch of parts. Adding a DIMM to my ThinkPad only requires my removing a door. -- Teh Usage Nazi

Re:Repairing em'

[rsborg]

We had a disk drive on a mac go

This is an aside, but Macs, due to their firmware capabilities just absolutely rule for this scenario. Your IT dept should have a couple of backup boot external drives... can be USB or Firewire, just plug it in, hit "option" on startup, and the computer is booted using the spare.

You can even have it on an iPod (w/disk mode)... small, light, and just like a dongle on a laptop... totally usable for a day.

PCs really suck in comparison for losing drives.

Re:Repairing em'

[klubar]

Actually with a PC (at least with the Dell Optiplex line) you can easily boot off a USB drive. My comment was more about the "unbusiness like" service that Apple provided.

Also with a PC & Windows, the user profile can be stored on the server (using active directory) and when the user logs in (on any machine on the network), all of their profiles and settings will be identical. Probably doable on the mac, but typically most of the settings for a mac are stored on the local machine (rather than a shared network).

Re:Repairing em'

[Durf]

a Dremel, an old VCR, a soldering iron, and a Perl script

Oddly enough, these are exactly what was required to look up the location of the nearest Apple store.

Re:Repairing em'

[rsborg]

Actually with a PC (at least with the Dell Optiplex line) you can easily boot off a USB drive. My comment was more about the "unbusiness like" service that Apple provided.

Problem is, each different PC model requires a different boot disk, for the drivers, right? (I have NEVER been in an organization that had a single vendor+model in their workers' PC portfolio... usually it's about 10-15 models across 3-4 vendors)

I tried this trick a while back and I could not get it to work effectively.

On the other hand, I've taken coworkers and family members' spare boot disks across Macs and had them boot fine (the Intel transition made this more difficult, but at the very least you only need two disks).

Re:Repairing em'

[klubar]

As you get into more professional window-centric firms you'll see more standardization. One advantage of the Dell platform (and I suspect other enterprise-centric PC vendors) is that they have consistent drivers and a stable platform for many years. They also commit to a specific platform lifetime (something that Apple has never done) and publish a roadmap of releases (something that apple has never done). This makes it easier to plan ahead. In the home/SMB environment the PC platform is a pain because ever PC/vendor/motherboard/component requires different drivers.

On the otherhand, Apple has an advantage because there is no competition for the hardware platform. Remember Apple monopoly is GOOD. Microsoft monopoly is BAD.

It's really the difference between an enterprise mindset and home/small business. Both good, different markets.

well,

[Anonymous Coward]

i for one, welcome exploits

Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

Now if only Apple would get their shit together when it comes to their server products. Anyone who has had to administer OS X 10.5 Leopard Server knows that the entire release was a complete gong show. From crashing AFP and directory services, to a half-implemented calendaring solution, a laughably broken server administration GUI (I mean, who would want to mark reverse zones as transferable _anyway_), and countless other problems... Microsoft , Red Hat, SuSE and Ubuntu are just walking all over them when it comes to the server offering.

Sure the Apple stuff is integrated and works for the basic case. However, if you try to move past what is written in the sparse user manual, you not only lose support for your basic "AppleCare" but also have to spend time figuring out how Apple has mangled the pieces of the open source offerings that hold their stuff together.

That all being said, I think with some work and polish the server side of things could really become a viable solution. It's just not quite there yet. This is coming from someone who administers these things for a living...

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[grommit]

Have you seen their XServe? horrible. The first iteration didn't have any hardware RAID available. If you wanted fault tolerant hard drives, you had to do it in software.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Lord Aurora]

With their history of indifference to the corporate market, do you think that Apple is going to spend the necessary resources to make their server offerings any more palatable? TFA notes the trouble MS is having with companies switching to Vista from XP...it looks like this could be the foothold Apple needs to launch some newer and more powerful products for the corporate user base. Of course, many of the Vista-vs-XP complaints are echoes of the XP-vs-2000 complaints we heard when XP first came out, so Apple is going to have to act quickly before MS does to Vista what it did to XP and the opportunity is lost.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. True pain.
Worked for ms-support when this garbage was released. The customers came to our facilities to kill us.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Original Replica]

Now if only Apple would get their shit together when it comes to their server products.

Or conversely they could get out of the server market entirely. They do the consumer electronics thing very very well. They should continue to focus and improve on that, let some other company do the server thing well. Trying to be "all things computer" is a mistake. Apple has done well by ignoring the corporate world, and they should continue to do so. If they happen to have some proprietary architecture that would be a wonderful blessing to the server market, they can always lease the rights to Cisco.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[dreamchaser]

I really see no reason to use any commercial Unix variant on servers given the maturity of Linux and BSD in that space. As another poster said, maybe they should get OUT of the server buisness altogether.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

Good points, but Cisco doesn't make servers.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[arminw]

....Apple needs to launch some newer and more powerful products for the corporate user base...

A smaller brother, both in size and power, to the MacPro, priced between the lowest and highest price iMac would probably be a very popular item they should add to their list. It could have one expansion slot and let the customer use their old PC keyboards and monitors. This would save money and help the environment with less electronic garbage to dispose of.
Apple could sell a sexy monitor, keyboard and mouse as an option.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Firehed]

Perhaps. I think that if anything, they'd try to rework their server software so it'll be more useful in the educational sector. I've called Apple about business inquiries and they are apparently able to arrange a 5% discount, if your business rep ever calls you back (which obviously didn't happen in my case). However, you can get a larger discount when dealing with their education side, often on more products - hell, they knock 50% off the cost of Leopard Server if you get it as a BTO option on a Mac Pro (which are already $200 off).

I doubt they'd ever abandon business entirely, but it seems like the kind of thing where they'd want to sub-contract out the maintenance aspect of things (even if it's some sort of internal thing, an Apple for Business, Inc, if you will). I'd put my money on them actually putting a lot of development efforts into a long-term business architecture while they focus almost entirely on getting people to the platform for the next few years. Let's not forget how they've gone and positioned the iPhone after that roadmap event - they're definitely looking to penetrate more into the business market. I have no reason to think that they wouldn't want to do the same in the desktop/notebook market.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

The newer XServe hardware is thankfully much better, although I'm still pissed that Apple only supports FC SANs for XSan.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

Believe me, if it was possible to do managed OS X clients with a Linux server, I'd be there in a snap. And as another poster mentioned, you'd be hard pressed to find a complete directory service implementation (LDAP, Kerberos, etc) that matches what Open Directory gives you.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Nullav]

Of course, many of the Vista-vs-XP complaints are echoes of the XP-vs-2000 complaints we heard when XP first came out, so Apple is going to have to act quickly before MS does to Vista what it did to XP and the opportunity is lost.

You mean Vista was rushed to market less than two years after XP was released because of the mountain of legitimate complaints?
No matter how big the planet is, there's still fat people. This extends to operating systems as well.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

who would want to mark reverse zones as transferable _anyway_ Err, someone who runs more than one nameserver for their reverse zone? Am I misunderstanding your question?

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

I was being sarcastic. My point is that you can't (easily) do that with the DNS server on OS X. Nor can you (easily) create a secondary reverse zone. Major oversights in the UI. I'm not even going to get in to the numerous other problems with regards to managing DNS on OS X...

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[IndustrialComplex]

Good points, but Cisco doesn't make servers

There are lots of things that Cisco would never make, but then they went and purchased Linksys.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[defected]

it takes 5-10 years to get your foot in the enterprise.. assuming you have decent product out there...so we're not going to see mac's in the enterprise any time soon.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

Not sure what you mean by that. We're an enterprise, we use macs pretty much exclusively. I know of at least a few other companies in the area that do the same thing. I guess I am imagining things then?

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

Their newest XRaid is even worse: it's not even from Apple anymore but from Promise.

I'm also not happy with their "solution": every XServe unit has at least 2 RAID-volumes each, and the need for a grand $$$ to be able to group that volume. ..Or so I was being told by our Dutch Apple reseller.

The management console looks pretty though!

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[drsmithy]

A smaller brother, both in size and power, to the MacPro, priced between the lowest and highest price iMac would probably be a very popular item they should add to their list.

Some proper business-class laptops (ie: with docking stations) in the 12-13" and 15" classes, would be bigger hits, IMHO.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Amiga Trombone]

I've often wondered what they intend to do with their server offering. Given that they seem to have no great interest in the server market, it would seem to make sense to license their server product, if not their desktop, to 3rd parties like HP or IBM, companies that actually sell into that space. It couldn't really be argued that licensing OS X Server would cannibalize hardware sales, since Apple isn't very interested in selling server hardware, anyway.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[dcam]

I'm no mac faboy, but is that actually a problem? All the advice I'm hearing now is that software RAID is a better option except in a few, limited situations.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Actually, I do RTFA]

If they happen to have some proprietary architecture that would be a wonderful blessing to the server market, they can always lease the rights to Cisco.

The reason to support servers is because of client/server compatibility. If a business/lab wants to have a bunch of servers and clients, likely they will want one vendor for both. Giving up on the server market means giving up on that chunk of the corporate/lab market. And since there is also a standardization among various departments...

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

or they could stick to the existing server market segment that they hit well, Namely small office setups. Places that only have part time sysadmins (or even volunteer for Nonprofits) up to 3ish dedicated personal shops that need their first round of distributed security and centralized user management.

I have set up several shops like this. most of the time I can set it up an not come back because it's learning curve is low enough for their most technologically adept to take over. even if they don't have perfect best practices down.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[dreamchaser]

The best thing Apple could do in that regard is open source 'Open' Directory and stop worrying about a server OS platform. Think of all the Macs that would sell if suddenly enterprises who were interested in Macs but didn't want to add yet another server OS to their data centers could just install OD as a software package on whatever OS they chose.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[theolein]

I admin a server room full of Xserves and can only say to your post: ahmen.

The bugs in OSX Server 10.5 are terrible. On the first day of operation the whole system trashed itself and we had to restore the user db from backup. We wanted single sign via OD master slave, but now, due to the extreme unreliability of OSX Server, we'll have to use two ODs and duplicate user entries. Yay.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[jedidiah]

...those limited situations being when you have a proper RAID controller.

The recommendation to "avoid hardware raid" and just do it in
software that comes from consumer grade cards that really aren't
what they advertise themselves to be.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[dcam]

I thought there was rather more to it than that.

AFAIK:

The main advantage of SW RAID is it is hardware independant. So if the card dies you can just plug the drives into another machine.

The main advantage of HW RAID is offload the processing to a card. However with faster processors this is less of an issue than it once was.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm that is called the Mac Mini.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Crayon Kid]

TFA notes the trouble MS is having with companies switching to Vista from XP...it looks like this could be the foothold Apple needs to launch some newer and more powerful products for the corporate user base.

Apple does not have a "corporate user base", it has unofficial/unsupported (as far as they are concerned) use of Macs in corporate environments.

Look, it's not about coming up with a new sexy notebook for the "corporate crowd". It doesn't work like that. If a company wants to cater to that environment it needs support and it needs to do it as well as possible. Currently, Apple does NOT have what it takes. Their end consumer supporting network is NOT up to par for corporate environment. Microsoft, Red Hat, the various PC and server makers, they all have infrastructure and business plans in place for this, Apple does not.

And I don't see them going for it. If anything, it would take efforts of a grand magnitude, for iffy results. That's MHO. Jobs has the figures and the facts and the kind of business brains I do not and so far he hasn't announced moving into the corporate market.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[kisielk]

I couldn't agree more.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[dido]

Performance isn't the only reason I've seen to prefer hardware RAID to software. Another reason I've found is hot swapping. I've once had a hard disk fail on an IBM XSeries machine with a ServeRAID controller, and it was just a matter of removing the bad disk and replacing it with a new one, without requiring the system be powered down or stopped from what it was doing. No downtime at all, and no lost data, and because RAID was in hardware, the resultant I/O slowdown as the mirror was being rebuilt was acceptable. Now, I'm not sure if things have changed and disk controllers that both support hot swap and are sufficiently well-integrated into the OS RAID subsystems actually exist, so the kind of gymnastics that I described can be doable using only software RAID and a hot-swap-capable controller. Last time I checked, (under GNU/Linux anyway) in order to change a broken disk that's part of a RAID array done in software you'd have to stop the machine and remove the failed disk and replace it with a spare and start it up again. That, of course, is unacceptable for mission critical setups where unscheduled downtime should be kept at an absolute minimum.

Of course the ServeRAID, the Compaq/HP Smart Array, and the sorts of RAID controllers that you see in enterprise SAN disk arrays such as those from EMC, are true hardware RAID controllers, unlike the far cheaper and more common phony "hardware" RAID controllers that actually do RAID in firmware. These fake RAID implementations indeed offer no real advantage over the Linux kernel's heavily optimized software RAID, not even performance.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Saint Fnordius]

I would argue that Apple has taken a stranger route, one of making server software designed mainly for Apple's own offices, perhaps also for Pixar but mainly so that Steve Jobs doesn't have to see "foreign" computers in One Infinite Loop.

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[defected]

how many macs do you have? If you have 5000+ Macs how are you going to do AV management, configuratin management, configuration drift and all the other operations management service lines you need in an enteprise to be ITIL and CoBIT compliant?

Re:Server is not quite there yet..

[Lodragandraoidh]

Good points, but Cisco doesn't make servers. I hate to break it to you but Cisco's AXP server module turns Cisco switches into application servers running a hardened version of Linux.

Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

OS X is a desktop OS, that's why it comes with all the (unnecessary) eye candy.

If you need a server OS, you don't need eye candy on it. OS X is built on a BSD core, therefore just use BSD for your server.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[the_B0fh]

Wait, are you trying to make sense in a OS Holy War? Please check your guide book, this is strictly forbidden.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[caseih]

Sounds like someone who's a) never used OS X server and b) never had to wrangle OpenLDAP, Kerberos, Samba, and SASL on a regular Linux server.

It's fine to say, stick with BSD or Linux, but they only ship with pieces of the puzzle, not integrated at all. This is especially apparent in the Directory Services area. Sad to say but nothing except Apple's offering comes close to competing with ActiveDirectory. OpenLDAP itself is great (and we use it to serve up information on thousands of users), but it's just one piece. Then you have Kerberos, Samba (with its own password schemes), SASL Authd, Radius, etc. With BSD and OpenLDAP, Kerberos, and Samba, you can get it working pretty well but you still have to deal with changing passwords in two or more places, different password expiry schemes that all have to be kludged together sometimes with spit and baling wire.

Apple's solution, on paper, is more ideal. Directory Services exports both an authentication layer and an authorization layer, welded together in a common API and common admining tools. Change the user's password and the password server, which integrates SASL, Kerberos, NTPassword, and LMPassword hashes, everything, no matter what protocol, keeps everything in sync. There are no passwords stored in LDAP at all, which is as it should be. Samba, PAM, SASL clients, etc, all talk to the password server. Contrast this with most LDAP installations on nix. There's a userPassword field, which can have any number of hash types in it. Then there's the shadowAccount attributes for password expiry. Then there's sambaNtPassword, and SambaLMPassword fields with their own hashes. Then there's Kerberos off to the side, never really integrated (except for certain kinds of SASL binds). It's honestly a mess. I hope that in the future, other products like Fedora Directory will take care of many of these problems. Samba 4 certainly will be a huge leap forward. One which I hope (with it's integrated LDAP system) will finally compete with ActiveDirectory.

In short, what Apple has done with OS X Server is a tantalizing idea of what we could do in the *nix server space if we put our minds to it. Sadly Apple's solution is lacking in many areas including just being half-baked and their enterprise support is non-existent. They have also never published their APIs to develop pam-DirectoryService and nss-DirectoryService for conventional Unix OS's, either, which is very short-sighted. So Apple's solution has promise, but tends to fall down outside of the base cases. But the standard alternatives are also very bad.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[XorNand]

SASL Authd, Radius, etc. With BSD and OpenLDAP, Kerberos, and Samba, you can get it working pretty well but you still have to deal with changing passwords in two or more places, different password expiry schemes that all have to be kludged together sometimes with spit and baling wire...

I'm doubting that you have Kerberos properly implemented if you're having problems unifying authentication since that's the whole point of Kerberos. OpenLDAP for directory services and Kerberos for authentication works just peachy.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[caseih]

And I doubt you've ever worked with Samba in an LDAP environment. Kerberos as authentication for Windows clients in conjunction with Samba does *not* work easily. Most of people I know give up on the idea and just revert to Samba hashes in LDAP. It is possible, but it's not an easy or "out-of-box" task on any distro. Even getting LDAP and Kerberos together is a challenge that's not well-documented and there are many other problems (see below).

I certainly have more experience in this entire area than most, and would be interested to hear your experiences. My LDAP is tied into Kerberos for authentication, but most LDAP-enabled applications on the planet (including our printers) do not support SASL binds in anyway. Only simple binds, plain-text over SSL. So I have userPassword fields set to SASL pass-through. This eliminates the need to store some password information in LDAP, but not all.

Even still, though, I have to change the password in three places:
1. Samba hashes in LDAP
2. Kerberos
3. SASL database (used in conjunction with Radius, etc)

Hence changing passwords on the unix command line with "passwd" does not work.

It's still a huge, non-integrated mess. It's not "just peachy" in any sense of the word. There is a *lot* of work to be done to improve the situation of directory services on Linux.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I guess it's interesting that Apple sells an OS with "Server" in the name. OS X uses a BSD system, but the kernel isn't BSD. The intention was to make it all easier with a GUI front end rather than having to deal with command lines and text files. Not having used OS X server, I don't know how well they do that.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[nguy]

If you need a server OS, you don't need eye candy on it. OS X is built on a BSD core, therefore just use BSD for your server.

Please don't keep repeating that myth. OS X is built on a Mach core, with some bits and pieces of BSD hacked into it. And OS X has serious incompatibilities to BSD. If you're trying to use a BSD server with OS X clients, you have your work cut out for you.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[moosesocks]

Oh, come on.

This *might* have been an issue when Windows NT 3.51 was new.

Modern servers can handle running a GUI layer on top of their other processes without breaking a sweat. How much CPU do you really think it takes Mac OS X to display a login window (which it ideally should be doing 99.9% of the time)?

The only way in which you'd see a performance hit would be if you were loading your servers at 100% 24/7, in which case there's something fundamentally wrong with the way you're managing your systems.

(This isn't true for supercomputing and massively parallel clusters, where you'd *want* your systems to be operating at 100% CPU all the time. In these cases, it makes sense to run a customized, ultra-minimalist Unix distribution for this, and a host of other reasons that I shouldn't need to dive into here)

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[tabrisnet]

Clearly you have never used OpenDirectory with non-Macintosh infrastructure components. It's no walk in the park, especially given all of the extensions they tend to do.

a) Since when do you have uid=foo,cn=users,cn=company,cn=com, and not cn=foo,ou=users,cn=company,cn=com. Albeit that's minor and not a big problem.

b) Groups are a pain, especially as you cannot (with the Workgroup Manager anyway) produce groups that are not also UNIX groups (no application/functional groups??).

c) The Workgroup Manager does not allow changing of a user's [primary] uid, and if you do it with OpenLDAP tools you may desync the group memberhips due to the apple-member-guid.

d) Many fields are obfuscated behind xml inside base64, like apple-user-mailattribute. This makes use of non-macintosh tools like postfix rather difficult. True, Apple modified their postfix (among many other tools) to understand how to use this, but using it with a standard postfix install on UNIX is a pain in the ass.

Eventually what you come back with is that OpenDirectory is great, as long as all of your servers are Macs. Otherwise, it's not worth the trouble.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[tabrisnet]

Oops, I messed up the DN. should be uid=foo,cn=users,dc=company,dc=com and cn=foo,ou=users,dc=company,dc=com

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[toddestan]

The whole point of OSX Server is that it supports the propriety Apple bits on your desktop Macs, that's the reason to run it and not BSD (or Linux). Much the same reasons apply for the Windows Server editions.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[Almahtar]

the (unnecessary) eye candy. I agree BSD is great for servers, but I want to tackle this little comment on the side.

While eye candy is not necessary, I suppose, that doesn't mean it doesn't serve a productive purpose. For hardcore multitaskers, expose is a must - in a second you can pick the window you want out of the 20 that you have open.

But the thing that most often gets ignored in geek circles is the bling factor. We can't mathematically quantify any use for it, so we assume its useless and frown upon the simpleminded advocates of eye candy. Truth is, we're humans. We have an artistic side, and when our desktop interface is beautiful to use we're happier when we use it. I get more done when I'm in a good mood, and I'm in a better mood when my interface is entertaining and beautiful.

Necessary? No, but it enhances productivity. So it's only necessary if you want optimal productivity. :-)

Not surprising that the computers most artists and musicians use sort of pioneered this.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[caseih]

Yes working with OS X server in a non-Mac environment is painful, but not as painful as setting up LDAP from scratch for the uninitiated.

a) I'm not sure what you mean but either standard is acceptable. Most LDAP installations I've seen and done used the "uid=dfasdf" schema, since uids are natural keys. There were no configuration issues going from my old uid=blah,ou=People,dc=blah,dc=com to the Apple version of uid=blah,cn=users,dc=blah,dc=com, etc. PAM by default searchs the uid key so as long as that can find the user all is well

b) Yes, this is true, although we have yet to want to create a group that's not also a unix group. Typically our groups are used to help control file system access, and so unix groups make sense.

c) Yes, this is also a big problem. We find it easiest to delete the user and recreate it. There are tools for manipulating password server but it's a huge pain. I suppose I could write a script that could automate this.

d) This is true, but the mac-only fields are few in number and really don't matter that much, at least on Tiger Server.

We've built a web-based system on top of all this that overcomes a number of these limitations. Because our web-based system is somewhat complete (although very specific to our install, unfortunately), we're actually migrating away from OpenDirectory and back to a regular LDAP/Kerberos on Linux system. We're still keeping OS X server around as we can always sync information into that can serve our mac users.

So yes. we've definitely come around to the idea that OpenDirectory is a great idea but Apple's implementation sucks. Maybe Samba 4 and Fedora Directory will do a better job. I think I might agree with your last statement too. If you're already using unix servers and LDAP, stick with it; it's easier to integrate Apple into that. But the idea was good.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[dbIII]

Does everybody realise that we are talking about the various bits of voodoo required to operate with the broken LDAP based thing that comes with MS Windows? In a completely homogenous environment ActiveDirectory may be great but once other stuff talks to it they have to reverse engineer, dodge around patents that should never exist, and ultimately play catch up. It's like the lock in you have around Exchange instead of email.

Then again, excuse my ignorance - exactly what do people use Apple servers for?

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

Modern servers can handle running a GUI layer on top of their other processes without breaking a sweat.

And your comment suggests that you therefore have no idea about deploying servers.

Due to the nature of graphics drivers and GUIs, by virtue of running either you introduce additional instabilities on any machine, whether it runs Windows, OS X or X-Windows on UNIX.

The whole point of running a server is not to waste CPU cycles on stuff you don't need and keep its availability time as high as possible. Therefore, a good "rule of thumb" is to avoid putting a GUI on a server but, if you need to, use GUI-based or browser-based management tools on a client machine.

My expertise is UNIX and Linux servers but I've been in enough data-centres over the years where I've also seen loads of Windows servers where whomever has administered them, has not used proprietary drivers to get maximum resolution on Windows but stuck with a 640x480 or 800x600 standard VGA display because they don't want the additional overhead & instabilities of external drivers.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

What "proprietary bits"?

Sure, in a Microsoft house, you need to deploy Windows Server to run Exchange, MS-SQL or some other proprietary Microsoft client-server application. Likewise, you may have something proprietary running on a UNIX client-server environment. Or otherwise, you may run an open client server application like a web server (without proprietary extensions), FTP server, etc. etc.

I'm willing to be proved wrong with my minimal knowledge (or care) about the Mac environment but what proprietary client-server apps require deploying an OSX server?

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

For hardcore multitaskers, expose is a must - in a second you can pick the window you want out of the 20 that you have open.

Arrangement of windows is a function of a desktop environment, not a server. Those windows could each be running a terminal session, or some other application, to one or multiple other machines across a network.

But the thing that most often gets ignored in geek circles is the bling factor.

Point one - you don't need "bling" on a server, you need reliability & efficient use of CPU cycles.

Point two - I am a 100% geek but the last thing I ever do is buy a computer as a fashion accessory. I tinker with my machines constantly, get the best value for money with everything I buy and therefore have never had (and never will) had even the remotest desire to buy any Apple product - because paying a 50% premium for a curvy case means nothing to me. So please don't confuse "geek" with "Apple user", they are mutually exclusive.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

I'm willing to be educated here since my knowledge of OS X is much less than either UNIX or Windows. But what Apple proprietary client-server applications require the specific deployment of an OS X server? And, if such applications exist, are they likely to be used in a corporate environment where deployment of an OS X server would be justifiable? (Like, say, Microsoft Exchange on a Windows server)

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

So the kernel in OS X is proprietary - fine, I accept that.

But then if most of the application stuff is BSD which is presumably compiled to work on the Mac platform and the proprietary kernel, why then would you need an OS X server rather than a BSD server which, in most cases, would still be compatible?

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

Sounds like someone who's a) never used OS X server

Correct. and b) never had to wrangle OpenLDAP, Kerberos, Samba, and SASL on a regular Linux server.

Totally incorrect - I'm a senior Linux and UNIX security consultant working for a telecoms company. I eat, drink and sh*t Linux both at work and at home in my "playtime" doing a lot of interop stuff with MS Exchange and LDAP also.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pressman]

Oh come on mods! Informative? Really? This is nothing more than knee-jerk opinion and hardly informative.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

See my previous responses.

I'm still waiting for an enlightened Apple user to tell me what Apple proprietary client-server applications justify deployment of OS X server in the first place.

The fact is that in the corporate enterprise, there's room for proprietary Microsoft servers that run Exchange, run Active Directory and/or domain control, MS-SQL or stuff like Sharepoint. Other than some really specialised applications, just about everything else is web servers, SMTP servers, FTP, etc. etc. which can be done in a pretty much open fashion on Windows or UNIX.

So please tell me where OS X fits into this - especially since you're reliant on Apple's not-very-good track record for releasing security updates when, by running proper BSD, updates are much more frequent.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pressman]

List your points. Make an argument. Detail your opinion.

What you said pretty much amounts to something like, "Cake is pointless because I like pie".

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[nguy]

It's going to affect system administration, admin tools, maintenance, and all the server dependent desktop application. Third party apps are less likely to be affected, but even they may trip over incompatibilities. So, if you're going to use BSD instead of OS X, count on 1-2 more sys admins and support staff per work group.

The point is that OS X isn't just BSD with a pretty GUI, it's a different OS with different semantics and different tools that happens to offer some BSD backwards compatibility and use some BSD tools.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

Apologies. I thought this was a discussion on "The merits of OS X server", not "Effective Arguing for Managers".

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

It's going to affect system administration, admin tools, maintenance, and all the server dependent desktop application.

This is still a generic statement with little or no substance.

In the Windows or Linux world, there is very little I can think of that is of a proprietary nature in system administration or maintenance that also requires a separate server.

With Windows, RDP is proprietary for remote access and updates might be deployed on, say, a SAMBA share that can be pushed onto client machines. However, SAMBA runs on UNIX/Linux also and it is perfectly possible for a client machine to pull updates onto itself from, say, a web or FTP server.

Again, nobody seems capable of answering my very simple question - why do you NEED OS X server?

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, nobody seems capable of answering my very simple question - why do you NEED OS X server?

You don't even "NEED" OS X client.

This is still a generic statement with little or no substance.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I'm just saying that if you think that BSD is the same as OS X Server, you're in for a rude awakening. But go ahead, make my day.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[FishWithAHammer]

While eye candy is not necessary, I suppose, that doesn't mean it doesn't serve a productive purpose. For hardcore multitaskers, expose is a must - in a second you can pick the window you want out of the 20 that you have open.

For you. I think Expose is more trouble than it's worth, because I can alt-tab faster than you can locate flying documents.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pressman]

It is a discussion of the merits of OS X Server and BSD and I'm asking you to make an argument based off of specific points.

OS X is Mach based with some BSD therefore you should use BSD is not a very well thought out argument.

Point by point what makes BSD the better server OS?

I'm not making a case for either BSD or OS X Server. I would honestly like to know why you think BSD would be preferable to OS X server, but I need more than what you offered.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[toddestan]

It's basically things like iCal Server, iChat Server (basically so you can use iChat internally in your company), "Directory" and "Workgroup Manager" (which is basically Apple's equilivent of Microsoft's Active Directory type stuff), and Spotlight server. None of those are really slam dunks in my opinion for running OSX Server over BSD/Linux, but they are things to consider if you have a lot of Macs in your company.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[caseih]

Then you know how hard it is to setup LDAP, Kerberos, Samba, Radius, SASL, etc and get them playing together on Unix. Have you got Samba so that it can push domain password changes back through and change Kerberos? How about pam_ldap being able to change samba and kerberos passwords? Not so simple because so much glue is missing.

At the end of the day you or I can make these technologies on Unix do anything we want, but you have to admit the initial setup is very complicated compared to Active Directory (which can support posix and OS X clients fairly easily). What we're missing is some nice glue to bring it all together so that when someone installs RHEL they can say "I want directory services" and it installs all the components and provides a way for them to all work together. There needs to be an API that allows PAM and NSS to communicate with these core technologies at a higher level where things can be pushed down to the right modules. I should be able to run unix passwd and change my passwd all the way through the system (Samba, Kerberos, etc), just as on Active Directory I'd expect a user to be able to change a password via the domain and have it trickle through to the posix stuff they hack in to support Unix clients on Windows Server. I should be able to manage users through a consistent interface (be it command line or some kind of gui).

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[Almahtar]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear about this, but I already agreed BSD is better for a server than a mac, but I was addressing the eye candy topic separately. Now sure you were making the point that it isn't necessary on a server - but many seem to have the impression its unnecessary altogether. That's what I was addressing.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

But once again (assuming you're the same AC), you've tried to avoid my question.

For what reason would I deploy OS X Server in favour of a Windows Server (where I might need to run Microsoft-specific services like Exchange) or a BSD/UNIX/Linux server running more standard services?

I don't think I can make the question any clearer than that.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[pandrijeczko]

But you've *STILL* not answered my question.

Please identify what OS X/Apple-specific services require an OS X server to be deployed in the first place?

I am not saying that BSD is *THE SAME* as OS X but what I am saying is that if there are no Apple-proprietary services that require an OS X server to be deployed (in the same way that an MS Exhange client using Exchange's internal protocols would require an Exchange server), why would I bother deploying one on the basis that a server does not require the eye candy a desktop machine would, and on the basis of Apple's pretty poor responses so far to security issues which would be fixed much quicker on a BSD or Linux server?

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[Wooky_linuxer]

I'd like to see you alt-tabbing to pick a particular image from a hundred with serialized names. Exposé has it uses.

Re:Why not just use BSD then?

[rshimizu12]

I am very surprised that there has not been more contributors to the Samba4 project. There would be a real benefit for Novell, Redhat and IBM to help finish Samba4

Great for Entrepeneurs

[MyDixieWrecked]

So having this gap in the market for corporate mac support really opens up the possibilities for businesses to spring up and take advantage of these needs. Apple authorizes repair shops so they can repair systems under applecare... one problem is that a lot of things aren't supported under applecare and applecare is only valid for 3 years after the purchase date.

All it would take is a shop to stock up on parts, offer extended care, data recovery and on-site services. In Manhattan there are a couple of shops that offer some of this, but they are mostly targetting users who don't want to ship their machine to apple or need a quick answer for unsupported systems (TekServe and others), but I don't feel that they are taking advantage of the corporate market.

I, being one of two apple users in my department, have realized that although apple has added the capability to join a windows domain, the SSO support is lacking and there are a couple of shortcomings in their implementation. Running a mac in a windows environment isn't quite as seemless in some critical places (SSO, as I said, but also browsing the network, connecting to sharepoint and if the network is flakey or goes down, logging back into the machine can take a long time if the machine has trouble communicating with the directory server). OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does... Although you can have it "show login window" from the fast users witching menu, activating that with the keyboard requires 3rd party add-ons. I use Quicksilver's FastLogout option.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[v1]

OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does

Open Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access. Select Preferences, Show Status in Menu Bar.
Now anytime you want to lock the screen, just click on the padlock up by the clock and select Lock Screen.
This will require a password to exit the screen saver, even if you have your screen saver not set to require password.

I use Quicksilver's FastLogout option

FYI, fast user logout sans QuickSilver is Shift-Opt-Cmd-Q. (you have to hold the keys about 1/3 second)

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[ColdWetDog]

It's not just for the hardware though. One of the bigger problems pointed out in TFA is that his Jobness just won't tell anyone where Apple is going. No roadmap (other than the cheesy map for the iPhone on the current Apple homepage). No ability to plan years ahead. Just do what Steve says.

Of course, it's not like Microsoft sticks to their roadmaps. But having a plan is comforting to Enterprise-types.

And yeah, they need to improve an OS X client to hook into a AD network. That should be relatively easy (even Microsoft did it).

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[peragrin]

What is better?having a road map and fail to be able to drive on the road 2 years after it is supposed to be due? or not having a roadmap but having good solid roads to drive on?
other than Intel I have yet to see a reliable software roadmap. Half the shit they just make up as they go, and drop it when it isn't possible.

Besides software roadmaps aren't meant to plan your business around. if that was the case more people would be upgrading to Vista. They are only for slowing down your competitors.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[mikael_j]

You can also go to System Preferences, Accounts and turn on fast user switching.

/Mikael

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not have a lot of experience in corporate IT.

Having a roadmap IS more important. You need to be able to make a case for doing everything, and you can't do that if the future of the product is completely undefined.

At least you know Microsoft PLANS to do something, even if they fall short or go past their expected release windows. That's something you can make a case against... as opposed to NOTHING to make a case against.

Will OSX implement XYZ feature that it doesn't have now? Only Jobs knows. Will MS implement XYZ feature? Well, the plan is to have it ready for release 3Q 2009.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[MyDixieWrecked]

FYI, fast user logout sans QuickSilver is Shift-Opt-Cmd-Q. (you have to hold the keys about 1/3 second)

I'm not in front of my mac at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that that keyboard shortcut logs you out-out... like... quits all applications, etc. no? Or, actually... maybe that keyboard shortcut is cmd-shift-q. I really need to look into that, because it would be very exciting if you're right.

if it just brings up the login screen, that would be awesome.

And, regarding the keychain-screensaver option, I'll have to look into that. I wasn't aware that that was even there, but if it's just a screensaver, I dunno how much I like that; especially if it's not accessible from the keyboard.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[MyDixieWrecked]

No roadmap.

Yeah, another great point.

I know when apple first switched to intel, everyone was happy to finally have an approximation as to what kinds of processors they'll see in the future since intel publishes their roadmaps and projections. Before, you had no idea what kind of chips they had in their labs (although, there were rumored 1ghz G3s before the G4 came out and 2ghz G4s before the G5 came out), and just because there were rumors, it didn't mean that those chips would ever see the light of day in any products.

I found an interesting add-on for linux and OSX a couple weeks ago (actually, it was posted in one of the linux mailing lists that I'm subscribed to, and I can't find the name of it at this very moment) that advertises itself as being a more robust AD client and allows your machines to take advantage of AD's centralized authentication and SSO facilities. I havne't actually installed it, but I downloaded it and am looking forward to checking it out. I feel a little wary about testing somethign like this out since I don't have an extra mac handy nor can I run OSX in a VM. I don't want to install it on any of the machines that I actually need to use. So, I can't vouch for it. But it looks promising since you don't need to run win2k3 R2 or update your current win2k3 schema to use it with a linux machine (OSX auths fine with a default win2k3 schema).

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the difference between a locked black screen and a locked screensaver screen?

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Hymer]

A plan you're ignoring/changing (Microsoft) is worse than no official plan (Apple).

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[solios]

OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does

Open Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access. Select Preferences, Show Status in Menu Bar.

That's hardly DEFAULT, now is it? Having it there is one thing - burying it is another.

The login window / screensaver bogging down or locking up is yet another story. :P Any way you cut it, a "locked screen" on Windows feels a lot more responsive than the screensaver "workaround" that OS X uses.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[sjmacko29]

I have kids... Locking my screen is not a luxury feature. Enable the password feature in the security settings, and then set a "hot corner" in Expose to start the screen saver. I move my mouse to the upper right corner to lock the screen whenever I leave the machine. Steve

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[moosesocks]

Alternatively, set up a hotkey or a "Hot Corner" to activate the screen saver.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[NMerriam]

OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does...

Hrm?

Preferences > Security > "Require Password to Wake this computer from sleep or screen saver"

You can change the keyboard shortcut for sleeping the screen to Windows-L if it makes you feel better. I find setting a hot corner to be faster.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[dbIII]

Roadmaps?

Longhorn will deliver everything OS X 10.3 has and more! Atsa da Vista Baby!

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[MojoStan]

other than Intel I have yet to see a reliable software roadmap. Half the shit they just make up as they go, and drop it when it isn't possible.

Besides software roadmaps aren't meant to plan your business around. if that was the case more people would be upgrading to Vista. They are only for slowing down your competitors.

When it comes to software, I think "roadmaps" also include product lifecycle policies that let businesses know how long the software will be supported and available for purchase. AFAIK, Apple does not have lifecycle policies for any of their "business" software products. Is OS X 10.3 supported anymore? When will OS X 10.4 stop being supported?

Users of Ubuntu LTS versions know that they'll be supported for at least 3 years on the desktop and at least 5 years on the server. Users of non-free (as in beer) versions of Novell/SUSE Linux know that they'll get at least 5 years of "general" support and an additional 2 years of "extended" support.

Users of Microsoft "business/pro" software know that they'll get at least 5 years of "mainstream" support and 5 additional years of "extended" support. Users of MS Windows can be reasonably assured that new versions of Office will work with their version of Windows as long as it's still in its "maintream" support phase. They also know that Windows desktop licenses will be available for at least 4 years after the date of general availability.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[dreemkill]

So having this gap in the market for corporate mac support really opens up the possibilities for businesses to spring up and take advantage of these needs. Apple authorizes repair shops so they can repair systems under applecare... one problem is that a lot of things aren't supported under applecare and applecare is only valid for 3 years after the purchase date.

All it would take is a shop to stock up on parts, offer extended care, data recovery and on-site services. In Manhattan there are a couple of shops that offer some of this, but they are mostly targetting users who don't want to ship their machine to apple or need a quick answer for unsupported systems (TekServe and others), but I don't feel that they are taking advantage of the corporate market.

I, being one of two apple users in my department, have realized that although apple has added the capability to join a windows domain, the SSO support is lacking and there are a couple of shortcomings in their implementation. Running a mac in a windows environment isn't quite as seemless in some critical places (SSO, as I said, but also browsing the network, connecting to sharepoint and if the network is flakey or goes down, logging back into the machine can take a long time if the machine has trouble communicating with the directory server). OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does... Although you can have it "show login window" from the fast users witching menu, activating that with the keyboard requires 3rd party add-ons. I use Quicksilver's FastLogout option. you can't stock up on parts and use them as you will. Apple charges a core fee for the parts. (ie, if tekserve stocks a logic board for a quad core mac pro, tekserve effectively is purchasing a logic board out of pocket, only to get a return when the failed part is returned) so you'd be looking at a multi-million dollar stock, and you better HOPE that you could use the parts. otherwise you eat it. not to mention, the core costs are inflated beyond belief, specifically to combat this idea. (the logic board alone for a macbook pro costs about 200 dollars less than a new macbook pro, as of the last time i checked a few months ago) LCD panels are 1000+. even something like an 80 gig SATA 2.5" goes for 2-3 times retail.

i used to work there(tekserve) as a both (hardware) service technician, as well as on-site consulting through them, its not as simple as that.

Apple also has a bit of a stranglehold on Corporate relations. They are known to interfere with corporate relations on sales, service is no different (ie, if company A decides to purchase form company B, and have product drop shipped from Apple to company A, Apple will call them up midst transaction, and say "hey, we can give you these for cheaper"..... and unfortunately, Apple's margins are so unbearably low, its not realistic or feasible to counter offer.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Swampash]

OSX also offers no default lock-screen option like windows does

I have "Start Screen Saver" (with password) bound to the bottom left corner of the screen with Expose. If I'm stepping away from my computer, I basically just throw the mouse down and to the left as I stand up, and my screen is locked.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[cyborch]

It is easily accessible from the keyboard, just follow these instructions to have a keyboard combo lock your screen.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[peragrin]

That is the point. your waiting on MSFT to deliver XYZ feature in 3Q 2009 yet the real release date is 4Q 2010. Now your over a year later and your own roadmap is useless.

All your plans are ruined because you depended on a single company with a single point of failure. How much extra will the delayed deployment cost you?

I would rather be right and say i don't know than be wrong 50% of the time and talk out of my arse. I am not a meteorologist I cant be wrong 50% of the time and keep my job. Maybe that's what is really wrong with IT. product life cycles are so short that accurate corporate planning can't be done.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn on "Require password to wake this computer from sleep or screen saver" in Security, then set up a hot corner to turn on the screen saver in the Screenaver preference. I throw my mouse in the lower left of the screen, the screensaver comes on, Adium marks me Away, and now a password is required to turn the screensaver off.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[Nicolay77]

Yeah, like buying a site license that includes all operating system upgrades for 5 years in 2001, and then watching Microsoft provide no new operating system during those 5 years.

Amazing roadmaps Batman!!

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[fizzboy]

Or enable the "Require password to wake the computer from sleep or screen saver" option in Security and then configure one of the corners to activate the screen saver in the Expose panel. Snap the cursor to that corner and the screen locks.

Re:Great for Entrepeneurs

[rsborg]

Or you can just use Lock My Mac. I use this with Spotlight (cmd-space, then L, then Enter).

APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Joe The Dragon]

And a lot of corporate users are on mid towers they also like to reuse displays from older systems and like to swap out hard disks / not have to send them off to have them replaced.
The imac / mini are not that easy to be opened up and you can void the warranty by doing so. They also don't have send off a hard disk with data on it. HP and others let's you keep the bad hard disk and get a new one.

also the mini is not a good buy next to other systems at the same price and the mac pro is over kill for most users. AIO do not fit in to corporate use of systems and other AIO out there make it a lot easier to swap out HDD's as well.

A good $700-$2100 mid tower will be a nice fit in a corporate setting.

There laptops can use some work as well like an 15" screen at $1200-$1900 not $2000 and up.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[cabjf]

For home use a mid tower may be a good choice. However, I cannot think of many people in enterprises who would need a mid-sized tower. Most businesses either need small computers to access internal web apps and run office (such as customer service, finance, etc) or heavy machinery to power desktop crushing apps (like a developer running a test server or analyst running data manipulation apps). And, from what I've seen, most developers and management want laptops anyways to use in meetings, at home, or just on-the-go. Now as to any other issues with using Mac, I really don't know. I'm just commenting on what I've seen regarding the need for a mid sized desktop in enterprise.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just your opinion that the mini is unsuitable. I've visited companies where the mini is used like a portable network client for users. Companies often own piles of VGA monitors & USB keyboards/mice already. Desk and office space are at a premium. A mac mini lets them reuse monitors/keyboards/mice they already have and replace the oversized beige/black box under the desk with something faster and lighter. The mini is easy to carry back to the IT room if you need to work on it, and it's actually not hard to open if you have a putty knife. The new intel minis can boot straight into Windows XP, and that's how I've seen them used.

The achilles heel of the mini (and the other mac models except the mac pro) is the slot loading optical drive. If a disc gets stuck in there, sometimes you can pull it out with strong tape -- otherwise, you have to take the computer apart to get the jammed disc out. So you have a good point, that Apple desktops don't seems to be designed with IT in mind, but I see IT departments using them more and more despite this, often to run Windows of all things. But that's in southern California where there's less Anti-Apple sentiment. Up north in Washington in Microsoft's backyard, the pro-Windows, anti-Mac vitriol is much stronger and more absurd.

I agree with you though: I want a mac mini with a TRAY-loading optical drive, and room for two 3.5" desktop hard drives so you can RAID them, and the hard drive should be removable without taking the whole f*ing computer apart. SATA *is* hot-swappable, so you should just be able to open the front and pop out the drive. And a pony. The computer should come with a pony.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[rasputin465]

AIO do not fit in to corporate use of systems and other AIO out there make it a lot easier to swap out HDD's as well. That's true for their notebooks, in addition to the imacs/minis you mention. I used to own a Dell laptop... while it wasn't the best user experience I've had, one thing I loved was that it was designed to be taken apart easily (removal of the hard drive or dvd drive was as easy as removing the battery minus two external screws). My MacBook Pro is the exact opposite... it seems that they have taken every step possible to thwart users' entry, especially with the stupid little star-faced screws (I mean c'mon, who keeps a tool for those things). Overall I like my Mac, but the "closed-box" policy needs to change.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[eltonito]

I've been at a handful of Fortune 500 companies and my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. The desktop computer is dead, replaced by laptops which have lower TCO's and offer a better ROI. Apple would be wasting their time to build a mid-tower for this market as this market is small and getting much smaller.

What Apple really needs to compete in the corporate laptop market is a laptop dock. Most laptop users are sporting external monitors, mice, scanners, external storage and keyboards these days. Not having an easy way to hook and unhook all of that stuff twice a day is a deal killer.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[fermion]

Apple does not have these machines because there is really no money to be made in these machines. There is no computer OEM manufacturer who is doing well. HP, for example, as well as most other manufacturers, do well because they have products other than computers. Del stock, for instance, is 30% below the 52 week high. Selling cut rate MS machines is not and has not been profitable for many years.

Buying cut rate machines, OTOH, is, and due to the willingness of MS and the OEMs to subsidize these machine(why does a Linux box cost more when MS Windows is theoretically 10% of the cost of the box?) companies would be a fool not to buy these boxes for the cooperate widgets/workers, and as MS is hostile to all other OS, there is little choice but to buy the more expensive and generally inferior ancillary products. In this way, MS profits handsomely, and the OEM box people eek out a living.

Of course now things are different and the computer maker stocks are proving it. It is now possible to buy the cheap PC for the worker bee, the Linux box for the centralized IT, and the pretty Apple for the executive or other lucky worker, and have all of it work together. The cheap PC works for production because nothing is really supposed to stored on the cheap PC, and if the box breaks it is easy to bring in the old box, image it, and have the widget working within a few hours.

Apple products work for the highly paid professionals because Apple products generally do not break. They may get confused, but as an Apple user, and an Apple users that is not a gentle Apple user, I can say that Apple products are tough. I have never had an PC, and I had some expensive PCs, that were as useful for as long as the Macs.

As far as repairs, towers are fairly straightforward, even easier than the PC. One latch exposes the innards. The memory slots are accessible. The HD is accessible. Last time I replaced a HD it took me less than 10 minutes, 2 minutes to add memory. It is so easy to remove the components that I always use the Apple built in lock to protect them. OTOH, I recall replacing a HD and memory on a PC at it took me 10 minutes just to get the components removed.

Laptops and all in one's are another matter. They last long enough so that if you buy a laptop every 18-24 months, you will end up with spares. In this age of the Time machines, with daily or hourly backups, a spare compute can be reimaged and work began a few hours. Old laptops can become desktop machines if the hard disk or screen or DVD goes out. Just add external components. An Apple motherboard is generally good for 5 years without upgrades.

So the machine depends on who is going to use it. I prefer to have a machine that I can use for three years because it is never clear that I will have the money and time to upgrade. In many cases, it is better to swap out a machine in a few hours rather than wait for a repair, which may require the additional time of reimaging anyway. I can't imagine asking anyone to stop working while the machine is being reparied, reimaged, and returned.

As far as monitors are concerned, this has been the controversy for many years. Even with PCs, many years ago, many corporate users preferred the all in one because the were cheaper, and the monitor was, after all, more reliable than the other components. I myself have never had a computer replaced without also replacing the monitor, for instance to an LCD or bigger LCD. I know that if a computer breaks, it is easy to just unhook the computer from the monitor and replace it, just a few plugs. But in a highly networked place, it seems that it would be even easier just to unplug the computer and the network cable and the keyboard(mouse connects to the keyboard), and replace the whole shebang. It may cost $1200 instead of $700, but imagine how much would be saved by outsourcing repairs to Apple rather than continuing to pay in house repair people that generally just run around the office anyway?

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[toddestan]

As far as repairs, towers are fairly straightforward, even easier than the PC. One latch exposes the innards. The memory slots are accessible. The HD is accessible. Last time I replaced a HD it took me less than 10 minutes, 2 minutes to add memory. It is so easy to remove the components that I always use the Apple built in lock to protect them. OTOH, I recall replacing a HD and memory on a PC at it took me 10 minutes just to get the components removed.

Funny you should say this. Most corporate workstations are designed to be serviced easily. I have an older HP Vectra here, one latch to open the side, memory easily accessible, harddrives and optical drives slide right out. The expansion cards are held in place by a bracket that snaps into place. Even the motherboard is on a tray and can be removed in a minute or two. No tools needed for any of this. On the other hand, the new iMacs and the Mac Minis are a pain in the ass to service, and were clearly designed as a sealed unit only to be serviced by Apple personal. That's one reason right there that you aren't going to see Macs making headway into businesses.

That's also the reason why I find PCs last longer, as you can upgrade them more easily to get more life out of them. The only reason the "Macs last longer" meme exists is that people will nurse an old Mac along for a long time as the replacement cost is so high.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Kjella]

I think this is a big one, I didn't know that they don't have docks. For me as a consultant I'm running around with just my laptop, but I see very many use docks. If you're using a small laptop with an external screen, keyboard and mouse then you're getting the best of both worlds. You don't have the cramped interface of the laptop, you have a desktop that undocks to be an ultra-portlable for meetings and courses and working on the go. You can go to the other extreme since you have the desktop covered already, while docked the laptop is just the "tower" which happen to look a little different and has some bits you don't use. The remaining bits (CPU, RAM, GPU, HDD) is good enough you don't notice much for office use anyway.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[jeremyp]

I don't think it is a big one.

I have a bluetooth mouse and keyboard for my Mac and the network at the office is wireless. Therefore, when I'm in the office, I have a grand total of two things to plug in - the monitor and the power supply. Even if I was using USB for mouse and keyboard, that only adds an extra one thing, and none of the connectors are particularly difficult.

Docking stations belong to an era where everything had its own connector and fiddly little screws.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have heard other people say this, too, but ever since USB matured, I haven't needed a dock. Plug in external monitor, plug in Ethernet, plug in USB hub with everything else. Docks are just too expensive and proprietary to boot. My USB hub has worked on the last several laptops I've used with no changes.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Chirs]

I'm at a fortune 500 company, and desktops are very much alive, thank you very much.

Lots of managers have laptops, but developers have mid-tower desktops with multi gigs of RAM and large screens.

I've seen what the monthly support costs are, and laptops are still more expensive than desktops. However, some companies like them because they think they get more work from their employees if they give them laptops.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Swampash]

The imac / mini are not that easy to be opened up

Dunno about the Imac, but I've upgraded HDD and RAM in my Mac Mini with nothing more than a breadknife from the kitchen. Didn't even need a screwdriver.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Corporate Troll]

However, some companies like them because they think they get more work from their employees if they give them laptops.

Exactly.... But then there are people like me who got a laptop and just leave it at the office just like I would leave a desktop. It isn't seen in a positive light by management, but others have started doing it too after I lead the way. After all, we're IT guys, we have at least one computer at home, right?

As for docking stations: I passed on one. It doesn't change a damn. Everything connected to the docking station can be connected to the laptop too, and since I don't ever disconnect my laptop... well, you get the picture ;-)

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Bill_the_Engineer]

And a lot of corporate users are on mid towers they also like to reuse displays from older systems and like to swap out hard disks / not have to send them off to have them replaced.

I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't really make sense any more. Sure 10 years ago when complete systems were expensive it was cost effective to replace individual components, but now -- why?

The following applies more to medium to large organizations:

You can lower department overhead by just swapping complete workstations. Just use an external drive with time machine to make automatic backups of the user's private files stored on his local machine while the company's data is stored on network drives. Now when a computer has a hardware issue, just swap it out with a spare iMac (the money you save with a smaller IT department should allow you to by a small number of swappable spares) and have the broken computer serviced by Apple or one of their authorized service centers. When the repaired unit returns, stick it in the swappable spare storage...

You save money on two fronts: 1) Smaller IT support staff (You still need them for software issues). 2) (*most importantly*) Smaller downtime for the employee who has the malfunctioning machine. The amount of money spent on idle labor and having a repair man greatly exceeds the amount of money spent on spares and outside hardware service.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Knara]

Managers on up often have laptops, as well as sales folks.

People who just sit at their desks all day rarely have laptops. At least in my experience.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Knara]

You also voided your warranty in doing so. Really stupid policy on Apple's part.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Em Adespoton]

Funny thing is, Apple was one of the first companies to make a dockable laptop, back in the day (perfected in the Duo/DuoDock system). It seems to me that the MacBook Air is a good contender for being the new Duo, but I really don't think Apple wants to go that route again.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[iPirate06]

What Apple really needs to compete in the corporate laptop market is a laptop dock. Most laptop users are sporting external monitors, mice, scanners, external storage and keyboards these days. Not having an easy way to hook and unhook all of that stuff twice a day is a deal killer.

Monitor - 5 seconds of DVI fiddling.

Keyboard, Mouse, Scanner - 2 seconds of USB use (the mouse is plugged into the keyboard, so just plug the keyboard in, a USB hub is connected into the other port on the USB 2.0 Hub-Keyboard (Apple Aluminium) which connects one Laser Printer, one Inkjet multifunction, my camera and occasionally a USB removable drive) to my MacBook Pro.

Importing my latest photos from the camera, working with them on a 30-inch monitor and printing off examples to show others - priceless.

There are some PCs that take 10 seconds to clip securely into a dock. For everything else, there's the 2-step Mac way.

Plus you don't get the ugly re-structuring of the design all around the dock adapter. Plus, all your

external monitors, mice, scanners, external storage and keyboards would take me 2 plugs on opposing sides so I can use two hands at once. How many plugs does it take for you?

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Anonymous Coward]

What Apple really needs to compete in the corporate laptop market is a laptop dock. Most laptop users are sporting external monitors, mice, scanners, external storage and keyboards these days. Not having an easy way to hook and unhook all of that stuff twice a day is a deal killer.

I agree, but the USB hub almost negates the need for a dock by allowing a whole host of external equipment to be connected with a single plug. The only other connector required might be a DVI for your external monitor... so 2 plugs aren't such a bad thing really, certainly not a deal breaker for me. ;)

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[sparkster812]

It only voids the warranty if you break it in the process. It's just not user-friendly and if Apple does it and breaks it, they can just replace it.

Re:APPLE HAS NO MID-RANGE HEAD LESS DESKTOPS!

[Knara]

This is not what I've come to understand. Basically, if they see tool marks, they are within their contractual obligations to refuse to cover it under warranty. The way the Minis are constructed, it's almost impossible to open one without leaving some tool marks.

Whether or not they honor it is probably up to each store and/or the supervisor at a mail-in center. But the mere fact that its a warranty-issue to upgrade a harddrive is insanity.

Send in the clones

[Animats]

It's time for one of the major desktop manufacturers to cut a deal with Apple to make Mac desktop machines. It's time for Apple to exit desktops anyway; laptops are taking over in the personal market. But in business, where there are desks, desktops will be around for years to come. Since they're just x86 machines, there's no technical obstacle.

Psystar may be on to something.

Re:Send in the clones

[Joe The Dragon]

it's to bad with apple laptops that you need to $2000 just to get a 15" screen and a real video card.

Re:Send in the clones

[v1]

Right now the sales are about 2:1 in favor of laptops. I don't think dropping a third of your market in the name of consolidation is a good idea? Not yet anyway. Maybe give it 3-5 more years and it may be worth it.

Re:Send in the clones

[Dystopian Rebel]

From The Desk Of Steve Jobs, Apple Inc

Dear Slashdot Member 122034 ("Animats"),

It has been brought to my attention that you understand my business better than I do.

As you know, Slashdot is full of people who have far more opinions than money and far more enthusiasm for offering their opinions than for doing any real work.

Of course, I have no reason to believe that you are one of these foolish, idle creatures that can be seen pontificating on Web sites every minute of every day while able-minded people are accomplishing things.

Congratulations on having brilliant, instantaneous insights into my own affairs that I can only begin to understand after spending more than half my life in the computer industry and running one of the most successful electronics companies in the world.

I've instructed my assistants to alert me to any future guidance that you have time to offer.

Sincerely,

Steve Jobs

Re:Send in the clones

[ncryptd]

It's time for one of the major desktop manufacturers to cut a deal with Apple to make Mac desktop machines. With your UID, you should know what happened last time they tried that...

Re:Send in the clones

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell do you need a video card for in a corporate machine?

Re:Send in the clones

[eipgam]

Just because there are desks doesn't mean desktops will be around for years to come. The company I work for isn't the most technologically aware, but is currently replacing all its desktops with laptops as it moves to hot-desks.

Re:Send in the clones

[Joe The Dragon]

Vista and people who use cad, video work, big screens, dual screen or more users and others.

Also at $1500 you should be getting a video card with it's own ram.

Re:Send in the clones

[jeremyp]

What the hell do you need Vista for on a Mac?

If you have business software that needs Vista, you aren't seriously going to consider Macintosh at all.

Re:Send in the clones

[lenski]

I thought so too, until two weeks ago: $1749 for a 2.4 GHz core2duo, 2 Gbytes ram, 15.4" 1440x900 LCD, 512 Mbyte Nvidia 8600M GT. GLXgears in a standard 300x300 window runs at 8300 FPS. I bought a 4 Gbyte RAM upgrade for $80 on Thursday.

It is possible to get a less expensive machine, but the MacBook Pro has great thermal design, MacOS is straightforward for family use and surprisingly complete for geeks: SSH, Python, ruby, X, lots of standard open tools included in the retail distribution.

This unit is triple-booting macOS, 32-bit Linux and 64-bit Linux: Everything I've tried works.

I have not tried to get the Atheros WiFi going in Linux yet, but everything else is just great, so I have my customary development environment plus the ease of macOS for family computing, all in a nearly silent package. I must be getting picky in my old age, I *require* quiet operation...

Re:Send in the clones

[Phroggy]

1.) Hardware-accelerated 2D eye-candy, which frees up your CPU from having to render all that transparency and animated effects, which can actually improve productivity if implemented correctly (I'm not suggesting Apple's current implementation is correct, of course).

2.) It depends on what your corporation does. One of my clients is an architecture firm; they routinely shuffle around massively huge PDFs full of high-resolution photos. Another client is a fabrication shop that uses AutoCAD drawings.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

So license the right to make "business macs"

[Per Abrahamsen]

License the rights to someone who cares. I'm sure Lenovo would love to market a range of "ThinkMac" laptops to business users.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Where are all the GAMES then!!??

[Anonymous Coward]

You would think that a company that was so "squarely focussed" on consumers would take the time to be "squarely focussed" on what consumers use their computers for when they're not at work.... GAMES!!!!.... So... Mr. Jobs... Apple... where are all those GAMES!!!???.... It's a great platform.. and... yes... there are games available.... but there needs to be PLENTY more (as well as many cutting edge that are unavailable on other platforms) to attract "Joe Consumer" to your platform.

Re:Where are all the GAMES then!!??

[ceejayoz]

Just because you're a consumer and a gamer doesn't mean all consumers are gamers. There are plenty of consumers out there who don't game.

I don't think one can really fault Jobs for first targeting "people who take photos", "people who listen to music", etc. over "people who play Half Life".

Re:Where are all the GAMES then!!??

[Anonymous Coward]

why does it have to be so LINEAR?? you don't have to "first focus on people who take photos"... then "focus on people who listen to music",.... then focus on people who do x, y, z - your defense is nonsense. Consumers do play games... so providing games should still be a priority... which clearly it isn't... KNOWING that your choice of games on OSX will SUCK will PREVENT users from buying Macs... people want their computers to do EVERYTHING... also, the negative effects of not having games may be greater than you think e.g. in a household of 4 where only a single person (maybe teenage son) is a gamer and family can only afford a single **NEW** computer... guess what... it won't be a Mac!

Re:Where are all the GAMES then!!??

[Phroggy]

Consumers do play games... so providing games should still be a priority... which clearly it isn't... I'm not aware that any of my clients or my relatives play games beyond Solitaire and various Flash-based things. My roommates are gamers, but they seem to prefer the XBox 360.

Yes, computer-based gaming is an important market, but it's not quite as all-encompassing as you think it is.

Re:Where are all the GAMES then!!??

[ceejayoz]

why does it have to be so LINEAR? Because companies have finite resources.

Consumers do play games... so providing games should still be a priority... And you're accusing me of nonsense?

Consumers do all sorts of things. Apple can't target each, so they target the most potentially profitable segments.

Gamers are far, far, far from the top of that list. Plus, Apple can't do much to target gamers on their own, barring switching to Windows for their computers (not bloody likely!). They're not a game developer.

Anyways, gamers are free to buy a Mac and run Windows on it via Boot Camp.

Tech Support

[Zoole]

My previous job was tech support of PCs and Macs in an educational setting. Hardware support wasn't much of an issue. Just keep spare macs around to swap in when something breaks down.

The software side of things is a bit more tricky. I can attest to a much longer time invested in learning workarounds and resolutions for problems, and some problems where the only solution meant waiting when you didn't have that time to waste.

That said, the macs were generally not an issue once they were configured and set up. Once or twice there would be a software update that broke some of our outdated settings, but support on the software end of things was fairly smooth once things were in place.

I expect that the corporate world would be much more fast paced and I'm not sure if macs are ready for that setting, but now that I'm part of that world, I can see the demand from end users bubbling up. I don't think existing techs would need much more than google and a willingness to learn in order to solve issues, and perhaps tech support isn't being given enough credit for being able to adapt. It seems like it's only a matter of time before macs break into this market and my hope is that GNU/linux will become more of an option as well. Sounds like a nightmare for tech support.

The least pleasant thing about my previous position was dealing with certain mac users, but not the macs themselves.

Re:Tech Support

[Xest]

May I ask what kind of (infinite funding ;) ?) educational setting that was? University level perhaps?

Having spent 4 years of my life supporting primary and secondary level schools in the UK any machine in existence in the school was a machine that had to be up and working to reach goverment set targets for computers to pupil ratios. Out of the 173 schools we covered I wasn't aware of a single one that could simply afford to have machines lying around. Furthermore, if a machine went down and was out of warranty the school needed it up and running in the cheapest way possible, if that was replacement hard drive or a replacement memory stick then so be it, paying £30 or so for either of these components the school could push to but having £1000 of hardware sat lying around just in case something went wrong? Not a chance.

I certainly agree that having spare kit available is the best solution but a lot of places both educational and commercial simply can't afford to have spare systems sat around and any budget for doing so is focussed towards having spare servers as a user with a broken system is one thing, but an entire group of users with no server to work with is a much bigger issue.

Re:Tech Support

[Knara]

If they had tech support full time, it was probably either a private secondary school or a university. K-12 public schools typically don't have the money to pay for real tech support.

Games moving off computers

[SuperKendall]

Apple is not focused there because that need is being rapidly assumed by consoles.

Some console games even support mouse/keyboard for FPS control.

With HD TV even just at 720p, you have resolution that is acceptable to just about anyone, and you don't have to do all the work of updating drivers and such - the platforms handle updates quite well as to the games.

Re:Games moving off computers

[Anonymous Coward]

You watching too much MTV Cribs my friend, or you are not a real slashdotter...
Consoles are for kids, rappers, girls and other sort of impaired people. Real geek gamers play games in huge computer rigs with water-cooling and 4 512mb video cards.
How can you hack your games databases and change the characters' powers if you playing on a console?
I need to do assembly editing on my game DBs!!! I spend most of my time doing that instead of playing!!!

Re:Games moving off computers

[failedlogic]

I argee with you in principal. I don't have a lot of time to game but still enjoy it. Most console games are impossible to cheat on so I waste a lot of time and sometimes don't finish it.

At least on the PC, if there are not cheat codes, there's always a way.

Re:Games moving off computers

[toddestan]

People like you have been predicting the demise of PC gaming for years. However, it has not happened yet for a variety of reasons, and I don't see it happening any time soon. PC gaming will be relevant for years to come.

Re:Games moving off computers

[Anonymous Coward]

principal

What does the head of a school have to do with anything? (Hint: principle vs. principal)

Adminware

[Joutsa]

The problem with Windows at my workplace is that it comes pre-crippled with Tivoli Endpoint, mandatory anti-virus and various other pieces of adminware. If even some of these were not available for Mac, that would be a good reason to switch. Of course, that would also prevent the change, but one can always dream...

Re:Adminware

[JimCDiver]

Double++ ditto. The crap/adminware that comes installed on the default image at work grinds my laptop to a halt.

Re:Adminware

[MojoStan]

Double++ ditto. The crap/adminware that comes installed on the default image at work grinds my laptop to a halt. I don't know where to draw the line between useful (for business use) "adminware" and useless, bloated "crapware," but some "business" PCs have a "no trialware" feature or option.

Dell's Vostro line of cheap laptops and desktops for small business feature "no trialware":

• No Trialware.
  Customers said they hated Trialware, so we took it away. Vostro systems come without annoying Trialware pre-installed. You only get the software you want.

On some of Sony's "configure-to-order" laptops (e.g. VAIO TZ2000), they have an option called "Fresh Start":

• Fresh Start(TM)

  Opt for a Fresh Start(TM) and your VAIO PC will undergo a system optimization service where specific VAIO applications, trial software and games are removed from your unit prior to shipment. Fresh Start(TM) safely scrubs your PC to free up valuable hard drive space and conserve memory and processing power while maximizing overall system performance right from the start.

Forced to 'Upgrade'?

[erroneus]

Perhaps for 'most' people, Vista is just fine. It uses more memory to do the same stuff in Windows XP, so it's less efficient by that definition. But for contemporary machines, memory is pretty cheap. (I upgraded my laptop to max capacity 4GB for about $80 recently and it's even cheaper now) But for quite a few, there are still instances of lacking hardware support under Vista. On the Dell page for a small XPS laptop I was configuring, it ships with Vista only and describes in clear detail that specific features and functions do not work under Vista even while previously it worked under Windows XP. (Shockingly, Dell isn't offering XP as an option for that model... not that it matters to me since I use Linux for everything anyway, but it was for a friend, not for me.)

I guess what I'm saying is that "Vista" is not an upgrade when it reduces efficiency and support for your hardware. People should not use the word "upgrade" when it's actually a downgrade.

Vista is a downgrade and it's being forced onto users who don't want it. Perhaps Microsoft is attempting to reduce their market share... who knows.

It's a matter of time.

[rindeee]

I honestly believe that it's only a matter of time until Apple decides to try their hand at the SMB market once again. To some extent they've simply come in the back door in terms of popularizing certain aspects of their product line to the point that it's ubiquitous with computing in general (iPod). While having a iPod/iPhone doesn't translate directly to buying their schtuff for the front/back-office, it does have an affect on general acceptance. If Jobs puts his mind to it, he can improve XServe and associated management/server services to the extent necessary to be a major player. Apple has enormous cash reserves and they understand the power that yields in terms of RDT&E success. Maybe I'm dead wrong and Jobs has no intention of entering the market. I can't imagine him leaving that kind of money on the table, though.

Re:It's a matter of time.

[ColdWetDog]

Small Business != Enterprise.

OS X (with the possible exception of Leopard Server (see above)) is perfectly fine for a small business. It works well with Windows (other than some flakiness with Active Directory which IT assures me that They Are Working On). They're great client machines assuming you aren't locked into some Windows only critical business software.

What Apple is ignoring is Big Business. Fortune xxx. Companies with Billions and Billions of dollars to spend on IT. Sure, lots of folks are showing up with Shiny Mac whatevers, that's different from having corporate accounts, long term strategy maps, service agreements and other buzzword things to warm a CTO's heart.

One gets the impression that Apple doesn't particularly want to go there and it's hard to argue with the company's near term performance. To break into Enterprise would take lots of time and money and focus - things that his Steveness may want to utilize elsewhere.

Secrecy is going to kill them

[goaliemn]

as touched on in the article, Apple is overly secretive on new upcoming things. This is not what companies want. I work in an IT department and I've seen what both IBM and sun have coming in the next few years. Its called a non-disclosure. This helps my bosses shape future purchasing requirements, because they know whats coming ahead of time, versus a big flashy presentation at a conference and it being available in afew days.

Apple has to realize if they want to compete, they need to open up a bit to their larger buyers. Yes, the consumer market is great, but now that users are becoming apple savvy, you want them to have the opportunity to bring it to their workplace. Its a similar thing happening with Linux. My bosses were very anti Linux, but the latest batch of graduates have so much experience with it, its being rolled into our environment. You get people using it at home/school and they will want it at work.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[Concerned Onlooker]

I think you missed reading the summary of the story as well as perhaps taking a glance at the story itself. Apple is not trying to compete in the corporate market.

You don't generate consumer buzz by talking about the things you're going to be releasing in, oh, five years or so. People forget about it and by the time it comes out it's already old news. Apple is much better off doing what they do now and letting the pressure of their consumer user base continue to help them in the work place.

Apple is growing. A few years ago the place where I work started offering Mac desktops and laptops for people who wanted those instead of a Dell. Judging from the amount of people I see walking into meetings with Macs I'd say that Apple has at least a 25% share at our business.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[goaliemn]

They need to start competing in that market.. I think the market is right now for a new entry into the corporate market, as well as the added consumer use is making this a good time to introduce them to a workforce.

Plus, with the iphone adding activesync support, they do realize some corporate use will help their bottom line.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[CSMatt]

You get people using it at home/school and they will want it at work. It's a double-edged sword. Companies will use the OS that their workers are most familiar with, but schools/homes will teach/use the OS that is most likely to be used in the workplace. This is one of the reasons why Windows has been so sucessful in keeping their market share.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[CSMatt]

How many of these people are running Windows on these Macs during their business activities, as opposed to using Mac OS X for everything?

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[Concerned Onlooker]

For business activities it's mostly OS X for everything. I mean really, why bother if all you're going to do is run Bootcamp or Parallels? I have Parallels installed and I use it once every couple of months.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[laffer1]

The first step is fixing OS X server and creating more than one server product. Expensive 1u fits all is a bit lame.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[larkost]

The only problem with those NDAs is that more often than not the information you get about stuff further out than 6 months is completely wrong. It is not that the companies are deliberately lying to you, it is that there is no way they can predict the future. So the CIOs make all sorts of decisions about where they are going to go, and set aside future money to pay for things that never come to pass only to change directions completely when the actual product rolls out the door. In other words they get about as much real time to make decisions as they do with Apple, and wait 6 months to implement anyways. Only they have wasted a lot of their people's time (and wages) trying to prepare for something that was never going to be.

I have seen this over and over. The only reason that the CIOs come back to play this wasteful game over and over again is that it plays to their egos to be getting "inside information".

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[toddestan]

My experience is the opposite. Most of the Mac laptops I have seen in the corporate world, about 2/3rds have been running full-blown Windows XP. It seems that people get tired of having to switch around, so they eventually settle on running the OS that can do everything they need to do. I guess they could use Parallels, but for whatever reason I haven't seen this. Either that or they just liked the Mac hardware but had no intention of switching over to Mac OS.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[bvankuik]

My bosses were very anti Linux

Mine too. They were taken outside and shot. It's the only way to be sure.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[Daniel Dvorkin]

They were taken outside and shot. It's the only way to be sure.

You mean you didn't take off and nuke the site from orbit? What kind of geek are you, anyway?

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[Catalina588]

Apple has to realize if they want to compete, they need to open up a bit to their larger buyers.

Last quarter, Apple got more than 50% of the market growth in the U.S. They are clobbering everybody else in market share gains (to about 6%).

Apple can win at minimal cost (e.g., without hiring an enterprise sales force) just by encouraging IT to let Macs into the enterprise. Some will take this opportunity -- as the article points out -- and other won't. Apple doesn't need 90% of the Fortune 500 as enterprise customers to double its market share.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[ogminlo]

Apple does NDAs. You just have to matter to them. And by "matter" I mean present a juicy marketing opportunity.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[mgblst]

I am having trouble understanding exactly what difference roadmaps would make in this day and age. When every computer released for the last 5 years is more than powerful enough to run applications that most users use, what exactly are you waiting for in the future?? If you need more machines, but more machines. It is not like you are waiting for the next speed bump to buy anything? Are you?

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[poot_rootbeer]

Apple has to realize if they want to compete, they need to open up a bit to their larger buyers.

I would have thought this was clear to everyone by now, but: Apple doesn't want to compete. They want to carve out a dedicated corner of market for themselves and own it thoroughly.

Re:Secrecy is going to kill them

[SoulGrind]

I have seen this too...

In the company I work for, it's upper management that buy the Macs - not for OS X but for the silky, sexy hardware. And what would they have me do? Blow away OS X entirely (that's right - not even an option to boot into OS X) and install XP only. For these gentleman, it's all about aesthetics, no matter the cost.

As for myself, I run a 17" PowerBook G4 with native OS X in our Wintel environment. That's right, no Virtual PC, no BootCamp, no Parallels. Just pure, un-adulterated OS X.

I connect to Exchange, I work on SharePoint (sans SharePoint Deisgner), I create network diagrams in OmniGraffle and export to XML or PDF, I run PhotoShop, I connect to WebEx seminars, I use MS Office (sorry you OSS guys - OpenOffice just can't compete with MS Office - not yet anyway - I need to get serious work done and interact with my coworkers and clients and OO leaves me hanging with it cludgy, buggy interface and tool set that never seems to get the layout consistent (I spend more time debugging bullet point inconsitencies in OO than I do typing up my TPS reports).

Eveything my Windows counterparts do (with exception to but a few miniscule tasks), I can do. I have one added bonus, I have UNIX as my underbelly... need to run a quick scan, I run nmap. Need to scan network traffic, I run Wireshark, need to work on some SMB stuff, there ya go. Need a way to quickly test sh scripts for our small batch of Linux boxes... You get the idea.

Sure, there are a few things I truly can't do... Such as run/debug WMI scripts locally or run SharePoint designer for the more mundane tasks of SharePoint administration/design. But those are the least of my worries. That's when I dust off, cross my fingers and fire up my company-issued ThinkPad T43.

Unfortunately

[Kupfernigk]

The "all it would take" bit is huge. Slashdotters frequently have no idea just how big some of the things that they regard as trivial in fact turn out to be. A corporate basically wants to see long term stability from its outsourced support, along with years of experience and huge economies of scale. So you build that and wait three years for the corporate replacement cycle to click in - but when it does, you have been bankrupt for nearly 3 years. It is simply not possible to scale such a business because it is very expensive per seat to provide high quality support in niche markets.

My consultancy is currently working with several support companies who are starting to change their offered product mix. You would simply not believe how slow it is as the culture has to change, the training has to take place, the systems have to evolve. In my view, Apple is right to stay out. Eventually the wheel will turn and the fashion will revert to in house support. Then they will be in with a chance.

Careful what you wish for...

[moore.dustin]

If Apple becomes a significant player in the corporate market, it will almost certainly destroy the image the company currently has among its customers. To think that as Apple products creep into the business world more they would not be the new target for hackers/malware is silly. There is a point where Apple's success will make it attractive enough to write exploits for. Say what you want about the current state of affairs, but you are ignorant if you think that OS X isn't as vulnerable as XP or Vista.

Once they reach the point where they have the focus of new malware they will almost immediately begin to lose their image as the secure system. A venture into the corporate world could invite attacks on their machines which would hurt their consumer offerings. If they were to lose their image as the easy AND safe machine it would completely change Apple marketing(which is very important to the company) and thus lose their fanatical base over a year or two.

Re:Careful what you wish for...

[CSMatt]

Firefox has gained considerable market share, as well as the attention of malware authors, and hasn't lost its fanatical base yet.

Re:Careful what you wish for...

[moore.dustin]

Well I cant disagree with you in all honesty, but I would say that the jury is still out on that. It is not an overnight thing mind you - time must pass in order to know the extent of changes. I would venture to say that Firefox has been growing significantly, but to say it commands a considerable market share is not very accurate. Let us not forget either that FF is not a household brand nor a company seeking profit for its shareholders. Moreover, many of the FF users are fanatical about FF extensions and not the browser itself. That said, I am by no means saying that these extensions are not a result of how FF was built and supported by its community. I give credit where credit is due and FF certainly deserves acclaim for its great support of 3rd party extensions.

FF is free, OS X is not. That distinction alone makes it pretty difficult to compare the two. However I do think you have a good point and it is something to keep an eye on.

Re:Careful what you wish for...

[CSMatt]

I probably should have clarified. By "gained significant market share" I didn't mean 40% of Web browsers or something like that (Firefox is somewhere around 20% last I checked). Rather, I meant that there are enough Firefox users that Firefox is considered "mainstream" and is something that most semi-tech-literate people at least have heard of, if not already use. Specifically, I meant that Firefox has gained enough market share to attract malware authors.

Re:Careful what you wish for...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just security through (commercial) obscurity. Windows gets hit hard constantly because everybody runs Windows with an administrator account. Business users don't do that, and if they do it's not Apple's fault. Apple selling more computers does not necessarily mean more exploits.

Hard choice to justify

[Realistic_Dragon]

What is the real requirement that would make you pick Macs over Linux or Windows?

Excluding creative firms, most companies have a really short list of genuine requirements. Track a few gigabytes worth of numbers (total, across the company), deal with e-mail, exchange a few documents. You don't exactly need expose to do an accounts receivable reconciliation or fill out a goods received note yet _these are the things that most computer users do in most companies_.

Once you take user preference out of the equation what genuine benefits does Apple really offer? Linux offers commodity hardware sourcing plus no software overhead. Windows offers the same hardware advantage and conformity with the rest of the market. After you amortize setting up a standard, well locked down image over 10k+ users are the costs of that really different enough to be significant?

What companies should be doing is deploying Macs where they could really have some benefit. I'm sure that there are some people who need access to things like FCP at work are suffering an old Windows XP box with inadequate tools. But for every 1 of those people there are 20,000 people who right now are tapping out yet another form debt collection letter and could do it just as easily from a $200 box running Linux.

Re:Hard choice to justify

[david.emery]

What is the real requirement that would make you pick Macs over Linux or Windows? 1. Ease of use.

2. Reliability, both HW and SW. (See my earlier posting on HW experiences.)

3. NO fscking viruses, spyware, etc to worry about. (When there's a real threat -and- a counter shown to be -safe and effective-, I'll buy it. Until then, no point screwing up the machine with anti-virus software that doesn't protect against any serious threats...)

4. Expertise on the platform. I can use Windows, but I'm much better on the Mac for GUI-like things, and when I need to, there's always the Terminal for all the Unix commands I know. (And Aquamacs is my preferred text editor, a great Mac port of Emacs...)

5. Ease of customization. This is related to ease of use, but is worthy of a comment itself. I can set things up the way I want to, in part because of the Mac's support for doing so, and in part because the corporate IT Nazis don't understand them well enough to prevent me... Don't get me started on Corporate IT departments, whose primary goal it seems to be to make everyone else's jobs harder to make their jobs easier; the opposite of 'service'...

6. Software/Hardware investment. I have -a lot- of stuff for the Mac, both commercial and shareware. Duplicating that in Windows would cost more than the computer itself.

When I changed jobs, I told my new boss that I did not want to use Windows. He responded, "Look, you get what makes -you productive-. You're the one making money for the company, not corporate IT."

All this dates to before the Intel Mac and the rise of virtualization. I have -one- customer application that I'm required to run on Windows. I also have occasional problems opening supposedly compatible Microsoft documents created on Windows Office on the Mac (but NewOffice usually opens them when Mac Office crashes... Go figure!)

I still don't understand why IT departments pay $$$$ for Exchange Server when the Open Source/Open Standards alternatives are
    (a) A LOT cheaper
    (b) A LOT more reliable

dave

Re:Hard choice to justify

[noewun]

et me started on Corporate IT departments, whose primary goal it seems to be to make everyone else's jobs harder to make their jobs easier; the opposite of 'service'...

I have found this to be true, too, depending on where I work. Now, I'm not saying that all corporate IT is like this. I have worked at some places where IT is knowledgeable, friendly and quick. But I have also worked at places where IT is no better than any other large corporate clusterfuck: poor staffing, poor communication, poor procedures and, generally, not giving a fuck.

In addition to some of the technical issues raised, I think one of the bars to having more Macs in the corporate sector is the social inertia of these IT departments: they have a set series of procedures in place from which they do no not deviate, a set base of knowledge which they do not wish to enlarge and a nice niche in the corporate structure which they do not wish to jeopardize. I have worked at more than one place where the first level IT techs--the people first sent to solve a user's problem--only know how to 1) check control panels 2) check network connection and 3) take the machine back to the IT cave, wipe the drive and reformat. Anything which might deviate from that pattern isn't allowed. In my experience, it is these people who are most vehement about allowing any other OS, be it OS X or Linux, because other OSes would expose the rather glaring gaps in their knowledge. I've even worked at one place where the IT people were barred from touching the Macs, because during a routine point upgrade they rendered all the machines they touched unbootable. Considering all they had to do was download a .pkg file, quit all apps, double click on the .pkg file and wait for the machine to restart, it was quite an achievement.

In my experience, the good IT departments are staffed with people who like their jobs and love learning new things. Give them a new computer to fool around with and they're happy. The bad IT departments are staffed with people for whom it's just a paycheck, and who really want to do the least to get by.

As with all things, YMMV, etc.

Re:Hard choice to justify

[16K Ram Pack]

But for every 1 of those people there are 20,000 people who right now are tapping out yet another form debt collection letter and could do it just as easily from a $200 box running Linux.

I'm convinced that before we see a lot of enterprise-y business software go Mac, it will go Linux.

There may be TCO benefits to a home user, but as you observe, in a corporate with experts in locking down desktops and internal support, that doesn't apply.

Re:Hard choice to justify

[dbIII]

What is the real requirement that would make you pick Macs over Linux or Windows?

A while ago I noticed a tendancy for some reception areas to have shiny and pretty iMacs for the shiny and pretty receptionists to use. Why not when you really want a data entry terminal that needs only web and email access to do the task? I'm certain there are many other roles but that was the obvious one - apart from the traditional photoshop and desktop publishing platform.

Offtopic a bit but upgrading the hardware is an experience even more so than a Sun server - pulled an CRT eMac apart yesterday to upgrade the hard disk and that took quite a while just to get in there. The plan is to use it as a cheap DVD player with screen ($50 total) so it really didn't need the 320GB disk ($90). So why did I upgrade the disk from 40GB? Ahoy there iTunes!

Re:Hard choice to justify

[dbrutus]

I'd like to get a dead simple to administer OpenLDAP implementation that can operate in a heterogeneous environment of 39 different companies who collectively offer dental insurance under one mammoth brand. Right now what we're using is rather idiosyncratic.

A mac OS X server implementation might fit the bill.

Re:Hard choice to justify

[dbrutus]

If all you want is email, don't use Exchange. If what you want is a decent back-end for the Outlook clients that your corporate people are used to, Exchange isn't a bad solution.

Re:Hard choice to justify

[Bill_the_Engineer]

What is the real requirement that would make you pick Macs over Linux or Windows?

A complete turn-key workstation with a more mature and integrated user interface, and software capable of allowing computer novices to perform their jobs...

Linux (I am sad to say) doesn't really have a dog in this fight yet. I do see the Linux platform advancing closer to this goal, but it is not quite there yet. I do promote Linux at my workplace, but I do see deficiencies and I try to fix them. Speaking for myself, I can see the "finish line" but it won't happen tomorrow, but real soon...

I will say that a cheap computer (or laptop) with linux (maybe ubuntu) pre-installed with openoffice, firefox, and thunderbird comes "pretty damn close". It's only when you add new hardware, or go beyond those three programs do you see the major cracks... Not to mention the quirky issues and the unfinished look and feel of OpenOffice and other popular Linux programs, but I digress..,

I know posting realistic views of Linux attracts flames, but what the hay?

After all, it worked so well the last time

[Foerstner]

...when clone manufacturers, despite paying huge royalty payments to Apple for the OS, nearly drove it out of business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone#Official_Macintosh_clone_program

Macs are here.

[BrianRagle]

I work at a MAJOR cable television network, based in Atlanta, with branch offices all over the country and about to be global. Our in-house Mac inventory has only been steadily increasing over the last few years and is expected to go even higher in the next budget. Whole departments are switching to MacBook Pros, en masse, and not just the "creatives". Even the engineering department is switching over to Mac, as most of their applications have OS X versions or they BootCamp/VMWare Windows if need be. Even Blackberries are being supplanted by iPhones, since the recent patch allowing Exchange integration and the next version of the device being fully Exchange compatible (according to our Apple vendor).

From a support standpoint, the transition is a little rougher, as others here have noted, but the company is paying to have their support staff become Apple certified techs (myself included) in order to do the work in-house and keep our warranties intact.

The server side is also increasing, for the specific purpose of running the data ingest software used to manage clips for our HD transition.

Some of us have even messed around with the hacked OS X kernals floating around and I can report that it runs BEAUTIFULLY on a Dell GX520. If companies like Psystar are indeed a harbinger of things to come, I see Apple's market share in the corporate environment only continuing to rise.

Re:Macs are here.

[Concerned Onlooker]

" If companies like Psystar are indeed a harbinger of things to come, I see Apple's market share in the corporate environment only continuing to rise."

As I see it, Apple will die a quick death if companies like Psystar are a harbinger. Apple creates great software at cheap prices in order to sell hardware. In my mind that's a good business model because it's easier to control copying and theft of hardware than it is of software. Plus it allows OS X to be easy and user friendly to install, without a crippling and restrictive licensing/software key scheme.

And before some bozo says that means that Apple hardware is inferior I will point out that I have a house full of Macs that are several years old and still running great. The problem for me is that Apple hardware lasts too long. I want to get something new before the old one is actually worn out.

Re:Macs are here.

[bledri]

ACK to the hardware lasting. I've heard all the horror stories, yet I've got a first generation Powerbook G4, a second generation iPod "classic" and a first generation iPod shuffle and they all are running great. To be fair, I did replace the HD in my G4 myself but it didn't seem any worse than any other laptop.

As far as what it will take for Apple to enter the corporate market, I think they are playing it brilliantly. Let the consumer's bring the Mac to work and focus on making the consumer's happy and excited. Let the transition happen organically and slowly so issues can be addressed without promising too much, too soon.

Re:Macs are here.

[Swampash]

In the past 18 months every alpha geek at my workplace has moved to a Mac. Looking around my office right now, it's probably 40% Windows, 40% Mac, 20% Ubuntu or Debian.

How this happened

[jrothwell97]

MR DREARY BOSS IN A SUIT, SHIRT AND PLASTIC-COATED FEDORA: I don't know... XYZ Corp. has such a dreary image. I am certain it is affecting sales. Jenkins, what do you suggest?

MR LONG-SUFFERING, YOUNG, ENERGETIC JUNIOR: I know. You need to modernise. I suggest that after work today, you go to Dixons and buy an iPod.
MR DREARY: What's an iPod?
MR JUNIOR: It's like a gramophone that you can carry around with you. You can put Wagner and opera on it.
MR DREARY: OK, I'll try that. If it doesn't work, you're fired.

(one week later)
MR DREARY: Jenkins, you're a genius! This A-pod is fantastic! What else does this Apple company do?
MR JUNIOR: Well, they make computers.
MR DREARY: Computers? Aren't they those modern TVs with typewriters attached?
MR JUNIOR: Sort of, sir.
MR DREARY: GREAT! Put in an order for ten thousand!

--

OK, to be brutally honest, I think the Mac is suited very well to small businesses, but is, at present, simply too expensive for bigger businesses with, say, thousands of internal users. That is, I'd happily order ten iMacs and an Xserve RAID for something along the lines of a local newspaper, and would order a few for a supermarket company with around 10,000 users, but in the latter case I'd make the main workforce up of cheaper Windows, Linux or BSD boxes. (Don't forget that, with sufficient package installation, even Darwin can be installed on a PC. Or Mac OS X, but that would attract the wrath of the lawyers and a hefty fine.)

I'm unsure about the upgrading arguments: my Mac (an iMac) can be upgraded in much the same way as any other computer: that is, undoing a couple of screws, and swapping out the hard drive, RAM, whatever. The iMac has the problem that the CPU is soldered to the logic board, making it impossible to swap the components independently, but the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro don't have these problems to my knowledge.

Alternative to Intuit needed for SMB market

[walterbyrd]

If Mac, or Linux, is to succeed in the SMB market, an alternative to Intuit is needed.

Somewhat surprisingly, Intuit is very hostile to anything non-microsoft. The Mac version of quickbooks does not work very well. The online version of QB was specifically designed to not work with Linux. The enterprise version of QB is certified to run on certain linux distros, but that starts at $3000 USD, whereas the standard version of QB is $130 USD.

I am aware of the f/oss accounting apps, like gnucash, or ledgersmb, but none of those are adaquate for most SMBs. I think a viable alternative to QB would need a good sized company behind it.

Re:Alternative to Intuit needed for SMB market

[Pop69]

In the UK, Sage tends to be the more common accounts software, again Windows only though.

http://www.sage.co.uk/home.aspx

Re:Alternative to Intuit needed for SMB market

[walterbyrd]

I suppose I should have phrased my original post differently. But, the point still remains: until there is some alternative to the dominate SMB financial software, then mac and Linux have no chance in the SMB market.

Re:Alternative to Intuit needed for SMB market

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a poor experience with Intuit after purchasing TurboTax Online and expecting it to work on Linux.

Eventually I found out all I needed to do was change the user-agent string to get it to work.

I don't know why they would artificially reduce reduce the size of their market...

Re:Alternative to Intuit needed for SMB market

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Not to mention, Intuit's tight integration with your bank and their ability to force you to upgrade to the latest version when they decide to not allow your version to check your accounts anymore. This just happened to me...

Dear Apple

[J05H]

My company bought a white Macbook for me about 6 weeks ago, it arrived with broken internal speakers. The nice kids at the Mac store ordered the parts and said to bring the machine in for a quick fix. Being all cool and slack, the Apple store does not take appointments, so I brought the machine in last nite to see if they could fix it. The nice technician told me it would take 1-2 days and there was nothing to speed the process. This Macbook is my work machine, it's not for school or personal use - it's part of a (small, agile) global enterprise that runs 24/7 and I can't be without it for that long. HP and Dell send technicians onsite to service problems like this, no questions asked. It's like pulling teeth to get repairs out of your people. Until you figure out how to fit into business customer's needs, you will self-limit your reach.

Of the 4 new Macs I've worked on in the past year, 1 Macbook, 3 silver towers, 3 of the machines had hardware problems out of the box or within 1 week of unpacking. Specifically the broken speakers and dead Firewire ports. FIX YOUR QA PROBLEMS, CUPERTINO.

In the meantime I will be recommending HP, Lenovo or other for laptops and desktops.

Sincerely,
A Burned Customer.

PS - why is it called the "Genius Bar" if they are such idiots about these things?

Re:Dear Apple

[CSMatt]

PS - why is it called the "Genius Bar" if they are such idiots about these things? The same reason Bust Buy calls its tech assistance "Geek Squad," even though it seems that most of them are completely inept at computers once you get past what the marketing department taught them.

Re:Dear Apple

[Mix Master Nixon]

Being all cool and slack, the Apple store does not take appointments Say what, now? My experience with the Apple Stores on Fifth Avenue and in Soho is that if you don't make an appointment for the Genius Bar, you'll be standing around for a couple of hours waiting for a no-show. You'll probably be lined up behind several other people who also thought they could get the time of day from Apple without making an appointment. If you're there to purchase, no appointment required. Anything else, yeah, good luck with that. Even if you do make an appointment, expect them to be running a half-hour fashionably late. And if your problem involves one of their godawful slot-loading SuperDrives crapping out, they will fight you tooth and nail, every step of the way, claiming it's your discs that are defective if they can manage to get it to read ANYTHING. Bring a large pistol and be prepared to whip some smarmy little bastard across the face with it.

Re:Dear Apple

[Entropy2016]

Being all cool and slack, the Apple store does not take appointments Try going to here: http://www.apple.com/retail/geniusbar/
Under "Genius Bar Reservations", select from the popup-button a state & store.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not an apple apologist normally, but there is just one problem: Everyone is expected to have an appointment, including for repair.

Re:Dear Apple

[16K Ram Pack]

You must be new here. Apple users are supposed to blindly accept such faults, and find some sort of self-justifying cover story.

Next time, why don't you try "Hey, they were a little late, but it gave me a chance to check out some of the new iMacs."

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehm sure,

every one knows that 'work machines' absolutely need internal speakers ...
I call BS.

T.

Re:Dear Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

HP and Dell send technicians onsite to service problems like this, no questions asked. It's like pulling teeth to get repairs out of your people. Until you figure out how to fit into business customer's needs, you will self-limit your reach.

I've worked at several companies that use Dell, HP, and Apple machines. We don't get any onsite service from any of them. When a machine breaks, we give the user a spare and ship the broken one back to the company. If the machine is functional enough, we migrated the data and config to the spare (where practical). I'm sure for big iron, this is different, but not for end user systems.

Of the 4 new Macs I've worked on in the past year, 1 Macbook, 3 silver towers, 3 of the machines had hardware problems out of the box or within 1 week of unpacking. Specifically the broken speakers and dead Firewire ports. FIX YOUR QA PROBLEMS, CUPERTINO.

Your anecdotes are great and all, but according to objective, independent testing Apple hardware has lower failure rates for both laptops and desktops than, well any other major OEM. The only one close is Sony. We all have hardware problems occasionally, but I'm going to have to go with an objective, formal study from Consumer Reports and backed up by several other companies, when deciding which vendor has a QA problem.

In the meantime I will be recommending HP, Lenovo or other for laptops and desktops.

Congrats on recommending hardware with lower reliability based upon your lack of research. P.S. Strangely Dell laptops are actually near the top of the heap for reliability, a big change from about a year ago. Hopefully anyone really making purchasing decisions for a living will actually do their homework.

Re:Dear Apple

[J05H]

i value on-hand, colloquial experience as much as objective analysis. In that regard, Apple has screwed up.

Here's what I know: last spring the brand-new video lab at a major metropolitan newspaper suffered 2 firewire port failures on new Apple towers. That is unacceptable for shipped hardware, IMHO. It might not be objective enough for you, but it was a major pain in my ass working around Apple's hardware deficiencies for me. YMMV.

Now, my Macbook goes "SQUAWK SQUAWK SQUAWK" when I play a sound. Multitouch is nice, but the problems are very frustrating.

Josh

Re:Dear Apple

[nbritton]

Bought 9 of the 24inch aluminum iMacs the first day they came out, not a single problem yet... Maybe it's you or your shipper?

Re:Dear Apple

[Clovert Agent]

1-2 days? Luxury.

I have a broken Dell laptop, also my primary work machine. Dell is now three weeks late, given the very expensive "next business day" guarantee I paid so much for.

Suppose I should count myself lucky. This particular machine took more than HALF A YEAR to arrive. Six months of fighting with the "support" dept for it to arrive - it was a replacement for another, which was stolen but covered under CompleteCare (hah!).

I have never had a customer experience like it, and never will again. Spent thousands of UK pounds on Dell kit over the years in a corporate role, but now that I'm a consumer/SMB, I get treated like utter and complete crap. That was the last dime they'll get out of me.

This particular Dell laptop, by the way, before being completely non-functional, has had separate onsite replacements of its hard disk, motherboard, bluetooth module, and internal speakers. So apart from the horrendous customer service, I also have a couple of concerns about their build quality right now.

So be very, very grateful for your 1-2 days repair estimate. My next machine will be a Mac, and I consider stories like yours to be ringing endorsements :)

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't be without your laptop for a long time right now, then wait until you CAN be. It isn't like your screen is dead. It's just SPEAKERS. Cmon.

Re:Dear Apple

[poot_rootbeer]

Not to dismiss whatever QA or shipping problems resulted in your Macs arriving with parts DOA, but... for what reason is it important for a business laptop to have working speakers in it? At least in my office, the sentiment is that the less noise your computer makes to disturb your officemates, the better.

And I wouldn't call your company particularly agile if they don't have a contingency plan in place for a single employee's primary computer being out of commission for a couple of days. No 'loaners' at all?

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Being all cool and slack, the Apple store does not take appointments

Sure they do. You can go here to make one, takes about 2 minutes.

http://www.apple.com/retail/geniusbar/

Re:Dear Apple

[J05H]

Loaners, not really as we are small in numbers. Agile in our case doesn't mean rolling in hardware.

Like most offices we are a "headphones" place. However any time I get an error or someone enters/leaves skype my machine goes "SQQRAAAWKKKK" instead of a nice "eeep" if my 'phones aren't plugged in. Working speakers would be less disturbing to my cubemate as this Macbook sounds like a tortured chihuaha.

Josh

Re:Dear Apple

[SoulGrind]

Two words... "Apple Care"

It's worth its weight in gold. I am not one to generally purchase extended warranty plans, etc. However, when I purchased my first laptop (an Apple 17" PowerBook G4), I thought it best to by the Apple Care for that "What If" scenario.

I am glad I did... About 6 months after the normal warranty would have expired, I left my laptop sleeping peacefully on my desk for the night to come in to my home office the next morning to have find my cat preening herself atop the keyboard - keys splayed all over the desk and the floor.

No worries - I popped all the keys back into place when I realize... my bloomin' cat actually broke the 'W' key.

I called Apple Care up using their 1-800 # (screw the Genius Bar - you'd have better luck waiting for the next ice age than standing in line at an Apple Store) and next day, I had a standard laptop shipping container (same style used by Dell, Lenovo, Sony, etc.). I shipped it off via Duey, Huey, and Luey (DHL) and within 3 days time, I had my laptop back in house. Not only did Apple Care replace the W key, they also replaced my entire palm rest as the aluminum had bowed in a bit over the course of time.

Apple Care was on par with the service I have come to know and love with Dell, Lenovo, Sony, and just about any other major laptop vendor.

One thing I was miffed at however was - why didn't Apple just send me a friggin' "W" key? IBM/Lenovo would have sent me a new one and had me ship back the broken one all at no expense. Go figure.

But I digress - the service was phenomenal and expedient with regards to (what seems like) the industry standard "3-Day Turn Around" policy for laptop repairs.

I have heard other such tales of Apple Care's excellent work. Avoid the Genius Bar, call Apple Care direct.

Re:Dear Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

i value on-hand, colloquial experience as much as objective analysis. In that regard, Apple has screwed up.

Apple hasn't screwed up. You're just not good at understanding what a reasonable sample size is. Fewer Apple customers are experiencing hardware failures than customers of any other vendor (according to the best numbers). A significant number of those users who do have problems, regardless of the vendor, will be upset about it and assume that vendor makes poor quality equipment, even if they are the one in a thousand fluke. So there are fewer people like you, who have decided Apple hardware is bad, than there are people with the same opinion about Lenovo or Sony or Dell. Sorry, but as angry as you may be, you're not relevant to people who make rational decisions.

Re:Dear Apple

[Lodragandraoidh]

I was thinking the same thing. But then I thought about all the in-house pod-casts and videos etc that have been coming out from our executives in the last few years. Would be kind of hard to get the message, unless you could lip read.

On the other hand, most of this stuff is transcribed somewhere else anyway - so you can read what they said - without having to wade through a bunch of blather.

Additionally, shouldn't his team have a spare machine for just such emergencies? This is a prime reason I think a certain percentage of machines should be purchased, as opposed to being rented. The machines that are purchased can go into a pool of spares when the user in question upgrades, that can continue to serve in such emergencies.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Don't yank on the cords to remove the firewire adapter from its socket.

2. Don't swim or take baths with your laptop, or feed birdseed to your laptop.

3. ???

4. Profit!!!

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

thank you...it sounds like this persons major complaint was that it took 1-2 days to get their computer fixed which is actually quite fast for a place that has more than that one computer to deal with. Get a spare computer and an external hard drive ffs and your lack of planning can cease to be everyone else's emergency.

Re:Dear Apple

[Confuzzled]

Being all cool and slack, the Apple store does not take appointments[

Not true, all genius bars take appointments. In fact if you go to apple.com/storename you'll be directed to that store's page, on the left you'll see "Genius Bar" with "reserve" under it.

The nice technician told me it would take 1-2 days and there was nothing to speed the process.

Ask about ProCare. The way this service works is you pay $100 a year, and when you have a repair it goes to the top of the queue. So if they have 20 machines to fix, and 5 of them are ProCare, those get fixed first (that's what they mean by "First on the bench", doesn't do anything for the bar, you still need a reservation).

This Macbook is my work machine, it's not for school or personal use - it's part of a (small, agile) global enterprise that runs 24/7 and I can't be without it for that long.

If you cannot be without a machine, then your enterprise needs to suck it up and get you a spare. It is not apple's responsibility to fix the broken procedures of your company. If you have a single point of failure that is your problem not apple's.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is your NEW machine... arrived with broken speakers... OK. SO I'm guessing that you've not bothered setting it up yet, so could just have demanded a replacement for the unit at the Apple Store and probably got a working machine there and then - consumer rights you know ;)

If you ended up having to wait a couple of days for your repaired NEW computer you could just carry on using your existing machine right? Problem solved.

Shouldn't be expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

If one desktop computer being down a whole day is very expensive, you might want to reconsider your business organisation.

Every company I was in (and that ranges from the very small to humongous worldwide behemoths) had a couple spares at the department level.

And you surely wouldn't store your critical data on one desktop?

/and don't call me Shirley

Consumers go to work and brag

[v(*_*)vvvv]

about how wonderful their macbook/ipon/iphone is. Apple's really got a lot of people by the balls. It's too bad that Macs are more expensive and less productive in an office environment than PCs, and these advocates don't know what's best for them.

That is why I cringe at Macs in schools because they aren't business computers and the cost of education is high enough without Apple making a buck. Again, these schools don't know what's best for them.

I'd say Linux is perfect for schools. It's free, it's a gateway to everything free, and it'll teach students how to work with computers better than any Mac or Windows will. The hardware can also be kept cheap.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[Anonymous Coward]

It's too bad that Macs are more expensive and less productive in an office environment than PCs

Got any unbiased statistics to back that up? Yeah, didn't think so.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why I cringe at Macs in schools because they aren't business computers ... What difference does that make? Schools are about education, not job training.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[Anonymous Coward]

are you some sort of an idiot ? i can get way more work done on a mac than a crappy locked down win32 box.
linux for schools ? most schools wouldnt know how to use a unix box even if it hit them on the head.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[SuperKendall]

People are bringing Macs in because they can get more work done.

See, the difference between yourself and Mac owners is that almost all Mac owners have quite a lot of experience with PC's from using them at work, for work. But many of us Mac owners *also* have experience of using macs for work, at home.

So we know what we are talking about, which is why we ask for Mac support at work.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[Anonymous Coward]

about how wonderful their macbook/ipon/iphone is. Apple's really got a lot of people by the balls. It's too bad that Macs are more expensive and less productive in an office environment than PCs, and these advocates don't know what's best for them. Wrong. Please explain to me why most people I work with that use PCs can't even close the lid on their laptop without all hell breaking loose and I can close and open my lid without concern of losing my wireless connection and I can use it almost instantaneously. Everyone walks around with their laptops open except me. Why do they all have to conjure up demons just to make a presentation while my Mac just knows what to do when I plug in a projector.

I'm am more productive because I use a Mac.

Thanks telling me what I know and experience on a daily basis.

That is why I cringe at Macs in schools because they aren't business computers and the cost of education is high enough without Apple making a buck. Again, these schools don't know what's best for them. Yeah, no one uses Macs for business, or creating music, or creating full-length feature films, or science, or teaching, or presentations, or software engineering, or running broadway shows. And they are super expensive, it's almost ridiculous that they sometimes cost less than an equivalent Dell. Less than Dell, how dare they? You're right, everyone should listen to you instead of thinking for themselves.

I'd say Linux is perfect for schools. It's free, it's a gateway to everything free, and it'll teach students how to work with computers better than any Mac or Windows will. The hardware can also be kept cheap. No, Linux is not perfect for schools. Linux in the server room, great.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[the pickle]

Parent is a lot of things, but "interesting" is not one of them. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

It's too bad that Macs are more expensive and less productive in an office environment than PCs

I'm sure people would welcome things like "actual data" and "research studies", but since you didn't bother providing either one in support of your "more expensive and less productive" argument -- after all, this is Slashdot, where any crackpot can say anything he wants, gloriously unencumbered by fact -- I'm betting no one is going to take you seriously.

I cringe at Macs in schools because they aren't business computers ... I'd say Linux is perfect for schools.

You're utterly insane.

Linux has no place -- none -- on the desktop in schools. There's a *reason* Linux hasn't achieved the market penetration of Mac OS X, and it's not because Apple has a fancy marketing campaign and a big ad budget. It's because Linux -- and I'm being kind here -- is at least an order of magnitude less user-friendly than either Windows or Mac OS X. It's far more difficult to use a Linux machine as a desktop PC than either a Windows PC or Mac.

Even setting that aside, you dismiss Macs because they aren't "business computers". Well, name me one, just *one*, publicly-traded company in the US that has standardised on Linux as its corporate OS.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Whew, good thing I didn't hold my breath. Linux is even less of a "business OS" than the Mac is.

[Linux will] teach students how to work with computers better than any Mac or Windows will.

Which might be fine if the class is a class about computer operating systems or programming, and probably not so fine if the class is about ANYTHING else. Schools teach things besides computer systems, you know. In fact, most K-12 schools in the US teach very little of what would be considered "computer science" aside from the AP CS course, and it's primarily a Java class. Teaching a graphic design class? Where's Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop (arguably the industry standards) for Linux? And don't tell me "GIMP", because when that kid gets out into the real world, the design house he ends up working for isn't going to have a bunch of Linux boxes running the GIMP.

When you're teaching a subject, you want any visual/aural/technological aids to put the focus on the subject, not the presentation tool. The aids are just that -- aids. They should do their job and stay out of the way. Computers have an amazing ability to be a tremendous distraction unless the subject is the computer itself, and the less user-friendly the OS is, the bigger this problem becomes. Mac OS X, for the most part, stays out of your way and lets the software Just Work(TM). Good luck doing that with Linux, unless you're trying to teach kids how to use Unix, in which case, yeah, Linux would be great...if that's all those computers are going to do. Or you could buy Macs and run Mac software, Windows software, *and* teach kids Unix basics...all with the same machines! I know using computers for anything besides pr0n is probably a totally foreign concept to you, but try to keep up.

The hardware can also be kept cheap.

If by "cheap" you mean "thrown together by some pre-pubescent 26-year-old dropout still living in his mom's basement with bottom of the barrel Chinese knockoff parts", yes. Schools want standard configurations that will have some modicum of reliability. That's not as inexpensive as you seem to think it is.

You and the people who modded you "interesting" can keep on living in your "Linux is the answer to everything" fantasy world. The rest of us will be getting actual work done and teaching our kids to do the same.

p

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[stewbacca]

That is why I cringe at Macs in schools because they aren't business computers ... (...ignoring my appeal to authority for one second) I actually have a grad degree in Education Technology, and that's why I cringe when people post ignorant comments like this. Teaching a child how to USE a computer is called "Computer Science" which, later in life is becomes known as "Adult Continuing Education". There's a big difference between using MS Excel to analyze and use data and teaching a Devry student how to format a cell. (Hint, guess which role earns more money?)

Teaching a student how to LEARN using a computer is the real goal of technology in Education, not which buttons to push. For a decent primer (and to stop making such absurd claims) please visit the ISTE.org website.

And furthermore, please explain how a Mac isn't a "business computer" (whatever that means).

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[v(*_*)vvvv]

PCs are cheaper than Macs. It's a fact. I don't know what the fuss is about. Why not search yourself.

As for business and productivity, to keep things simple I will just say that MS Office is the standard, and it runs better on Windows because that is its native platform. Productivity from a usability standpoint is debatable, but the benefits from standardization I would argue are not. And there are many benefits. Note, I am not saying PCs are better in every industry (like graphics, although one could argue for PCs in that area too with all the major software suites being ported to the PC with great commercial success), I am just saying for Office work.

As for schools, I stand by my Linux statement. Schools pay a premium to buy computers with all the extra bells and whistles when they really can't afford them. Linux is not only cost effective, but they make amazing educational tools. I am not talking about running proprietary CD Roms with "classes" on them. I am talking about teaching kids how to program, how to assemble their own computers, and how to manage software. Schools are where people learn, and learning curves are there to be overcome, not to be avoided, let alone avoided by paying for something more expensive. Most kids probably have PCs or Macs at home anyway, so to have raw Linux at school would be nothing but educational.

As for your other statements I have no idea where you are coming from or where you are going, so I'll be on my way.

You are rude.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[Nicolay77]

When the kernel developers just said: OK we have done a lot of drivers, we can't find a lot of hardware without Linux drivers anymore, would you please point us some hardware in need of drivers because we have the expertise to make it.

- Yes, you see this video card doesn't work in whatever the flavor of X I'm using.

- Sorry, X is userland, we don't do userland.

Now, I don't care why in the world that distinction exist if X existed before Linux or whatever, that this distinction still exists is absurd and moronic.

And that is what I hate about Linux.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[v(*_*)vvvv]

I am not talking about using computers to teach math and science, which I am guess where you are coming from. That is a whole different can of worms. I am talking about computer related courses (which are all about "which buttons to push") and fulfilling minimum computer-use requirements such as providing internet access for research, and word processing for homework, etc.

And furthermore, please explain how a Mac isn't a "business computer" (whatever that means). This was a premise so I didn't bother to explain myself. From the initial post:

Many companies are finding that their employees are pushing for the transition more than Apple itself Apple focuses on consumers, not business. PC companies traditionally have had better products and support to fulfill corporate needs, simply because they've been in the business of doing so.

There's a big difference between using MS Excel to analyze and use data and teaching a Devry student how to format a cell. (Hint, guess which role earns more money?) Of which neither are taught at MIT, nor will get you there. And we already know who earns more money.

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[stewbacca]

I am talking about computer related courses (which are all about "which buttons to push") and fulfilling minimum computer-use requirements such as providing internet access for research, and word processing for homework, etc. Given a Mac does all these things very well, what is so sigh-inducing about a Mac being used for these purposes? Still, if an educator is focusing on what buttons to push when it comes to writing papers and conducting research, then that child is losing. Teaching a child how to choose valid and reliable sources and how to write persuasively are skills that are much more important than knowing which buttons to push. There is plenty of education research that shows students figure the tools out with or without instruction, so why waste time on it?

Apple focuses on consumers, not business. PC companies traditionally have had better products and support to fulfill corporate needs, simply because they've been in the business of doing so. Circular logic. I guess if you define "better" as meaning "used more by companies" then I'd agree, but I actually have a different measurement for "better" and MacOSX pretty much wins that one. (Yes, even in a business context...it WORKS better, it IMPROVES productivity by working better, it costs less in the long run, etc. etc. Bottom-line bean-counters will never see this).

Re:Consumers go to work and brag

[v(*_*)vvvv]

Given a Mac does all these things very well, what is so sigh-inducing about a Mac being used for these purposes? Price. I am most concerned about Public Grade Schools. Private schools and higher education can do whatever they want, and afford to get away with it, but for a public school to spend 1000 to 2000 per computer is wrong when they can't even pay their teachers. Get Linux boxes for 400 dollars tops. The admin can be the teacher so no shame in paying him/her well.

If Apple were donating computers then I'd be all for it. That is not the case. Kids get expensive toys to *play* with at the expense of a real education. More first hand tales here.

Still, if an educator is focusing on what buttons to push when it comes to writing papers and conducting research, then that child is losing. If they're using computers to teach how to write papers, then that is a computer class. Like I've already said, I am not debating how to use computers to teach non-computer related courses.

Teaching a child how to choose valid and reliable sources and how to write persuasively are skills that are much more important than knowing which buttons to push. Either you are underestimating Linux or overestimating the ease-of-use of a Mac. They really aren't all that different. In fact, Linux can be configured to be much *simpler* than a Mac. Web browsing is almost identical, and word processing is a software interface/feature issue more of an OS issue.

There is plenty of education research that shows students figure the tools out with or without instruction, so why waste time on it? Great. You just argued for why students have no problem figuring out how to use a Linux computer. Why waste money on a Mac.

"used more by companies" then I'd agree Great. Because they are used more by companies. We agree on a lot more than you think.

I am not for PCs in schools either btw. Maintenance is a nightmare, and they break too easily especially with kids hacking them.

Linux is great because Open Office is free, and a ton of other stuff is free. Open Source is naturally a better fit for the education sector than expensive proprietary software. Students and teachers can afford to spend time figuring things out with their students. That is the whole point of being at school. To learn.

With Open Source, schools can get away without buying anything. I had a hard time finding a free FTP program for a Mac for work.

The worst misconception is that if you get Macs they'll never break and everyone will know how to use them. Wrong. Kids will hack up school computers to no avail and teachers won't know how to fix them. Parental control will break, and wireless connections will get tapped. They may get caught and put in detention but teachers won't gain any respect for knowing less than their students.

They're going about it the right way

[iabervon]

Apple cares more about high margins than market share in computers. There's no way that corporate purchasing is going to be sold on high-margin items by a vendor, because the things a vendor can offer aren't going to be sufficiently compelling in a marketing blurb to overcome the fact that the price is out of line. On the other hand, Apple can sell well to individuals based on getting people to like products that aren't available from other companies regardless of price. And individual employees at companies influence how the company spends its per-employee overhead (does the company buy nicer chairs? new cubicles? better snacks? macs?). This means that Apple is in a position where companies will be looking for the most cost-effective way for them to acquire Macs. Apple could put together a whole corporate program and send an account rep to companies that are considering buying from Apple, but all that would do is give the company somebody to negotiate a better deal with. Apple actually does better to ignore the company and leave it no choice but to go to the Apple Store and buy from people or computers that don't negotiate but just charge what the price tag says.

I think the only thing that Apple would want to change is that corporate IT is afraid of getting support and repair calls they don't know how to handle. To a certain extent, this isn't a problem so long as employees only get Macs if they ask for them, because Apple puts a lot of effort into motivated individual users being able to take care of their Macs without a help desk. But they'll probably want to streamline the process of selling out-of-warranty repairs in large numbers for the same owner. And they may want to work on getting corporate IT workers to buy Macs as their home computers.

You confuse server with user roadmaps

[SuperKendall]

It's not just for the hardware though. One of the bigger problems pointed out in TFA is that his Jobness just won't tell anyone where Apple is going.

For business USER (not server) use, what more do you need to know than what you can plan for already:

1) You know the web browser is roughly CSS compliant and will continue to be so.
2) You know how to integrate the existing OS X security infrastructure into your own to manage authenticatication and authorization
3) You know how to update groups of OS X systems.
4) You plan to migrate systems every three years or so (if you are the one buying them), which gets you free OS X upgrades

You and other people are confusing the need for SERVER roadmaps vs. what kind of roadmaps you would need for business USERS. If you are wise you develop systems that care less exactly where a user desktop is going, or what it is. Until you reach that state just let corporate Mac users have the ability to integrate into the network, and use Parallels if they must for any stupid intranet remnants that require IE (likely at this point in time). That's all most people need to keep them happy, most could easily handle their own updates as well.

If you were really fancy you'd provide centralized Time Machine support with a mac sitting somewhere sharing a large TM volume.

Another thing you and other people are not considering is, that many people would willingly use their own equipment. Honestly who wants to use some minspec computer corporate IT has deemed "acceptable"? The truth is that many people are ALREADY DOING SO (bringing in personal systems and monitors and so on) and IT had damn well better figure out how to make that work for the business, instead of just complaining about it.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[CRiMSON]

Uhhh I've worked in IT for close to 12 years now, in well over 20+ companies (consulting, and moving around due to my girls school, etc).

And very very very rarely do I see people bring there personal machines into work (even in the old .com days when people would buy servers on there CC to help out the company).

So uhh... show me your proof of "more people bringing personal systems and monitors" into the work place please.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[SuperKendall]

Just people I've seen that buy their own monitors and bring in their own laptops (which I have also done in the past on occasion).

And of course, lots of people bring work to home as well which counts as using your own equipment.

I've been in IT longer than you, but this is an occurrence that has started to take place over the last few years as companies have cut back more on system expenses. Obviously as an Employee I see it more than you since consultants always get newer systems companies have to offer and don't have to live with the same system for years on end or struggle to justify upgrades in the same way.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[Knara]

You work in a company that has a very permissable policy on non-corporate machines, then.

We don't allow personal machines on our network, period. This is not an unusual policy in corporations. What you're describing is more common in small businesses and some academic environments.

Yes, our network is bigger, more complex, and more secure than yours.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[SuperKendall]

Yes, our network is bigger, more complex, and more secure than yours.

Doubtful (large telco).

The thing you aren't grasping is that our company doesn't allow them either. They are just here.

That's what you must learn to deal with.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[Knara]

If you work for a telco, I doubt your network is more secure :D

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[CRiMSON]

I bring work home... on my work laptop... Which everyone in the company is issued.

"work" never touches my personal machines, and vice versa, I have no need to bring personal machine into work, as I have my desktop, my laptop, my monitor for my laptop, and my 2 monitors for my desktop (standard issue equipment for SA). I'm not a consultant, and haven't been in 5+ years.

Standard issue at the company I work for is, desktop + laptop (everyone gets both Hr/sales/marketing/etc/etc/etc).

As for struggle to justify upgrades? you do realise it's cheaper to refresh desktop HW every 3 years, then to keep it running?

Every 3 years you're issues new HW based on the current profile for your job class.

And it's vice versa most companies i've worked.

Employee's get shiny toys, consultants get the shit, and or have there own laptop. (which I guess you could consider "personal").

So I guess it's just your backwards company.

Re:You confuse server with user roadmaps

[SuperKendall]

I bring work home... on my work laptop... Which everyone in the company is issued.

"work" never touches my personal machines, and vice versa,

Sorry man, but that's not what happens in the rest of the world. I've never heard of a company that works like that, having friends at many companies of different sizes. And I'm not just talking IT, but VP's or sales or other roles. The real world just isn't that cut and dried as far as system use.

As for struggle to justify upgrades? you do realise it's cheaper to refresh desktop HW every 3 years, then to keep it running?

Obviously, but it's not always what happens.

Employee's get shiny toys, consultants get the shit,

I've seen that work both ways but in more recently years it's employees that have been cut shorter.

Good news for free OSs?

[CSMatt]

If employees can successfully persuade employers to let them use Macs for productivity, does this mean that it has become easier to do the same for GNU+Linux as well? After all, a distro can easily be installed on the original hardware. No need to go out and buy a new machine. Users can also dual-boot if they still need Windows around for that occasional Windows-only task.

Re:Good news for free OSs?

[justinlee37]

If employees can successfully persuade employers to let them use Macs for productivity, does this mean that it has become easier to do the same for GNU+Linux as well?

You are basically trading apples for lemons here (not to say that you can't make lemonade). Macs have a reputation for being expensive and easy-to-use; GNU+Linux has a reputation for being free and hard-to-use. It all depends on what your employer's priorities are (and how deep the company's pocketbooks are at the time). If you work in sales, you will have an easier time convincing the team to switch to macs. If you work in high-level software architecture design, you will have an easier time convincing the team to switch to GNU+Linux.

Re:Good news for free OSs?

[CSMatt]

Not talking about conveting an entire team, just allowing the employee who asks to use the system on his or her work machine.

Re:Good news for free OSs?

[justinlee37]

I work for a university, and it's so bureaucratic that if a professor wants to install Skype on a classroom computer (to incorporate a telecommuting student into his master's software class), he can't even get the administrator's password to do so from the manager of our department -- whoever has that password, the man is in another building. It ended up being simpler to do this really archaic "phone-bridge" thing than it was for the professor to just install Skype.

I haven't worked much in the corporate world, but my hunch is that if you go to your head of IT, in a company that uses, say, nothing but Windows XP PC's, and ask to be the only employee using a different system and operating system, they will see that as extra work at best and as a dire security hazard at worst.

Status symbols

[Thaelon]

That hasn't stopped the executives where I work from buying up macbook airs and iphones seconds after they come out.

I welcome reasonable standards.

[gnutoo]

With significant Mac deployments in big companies, Microsoft only stuff won't fly. This is not as good as free software deployment but it's helpful. Increasing choice of tools in big companies is good for everyone but everyone's least favorite monopoly.

As long as common dissasters like Flash are used in all platforms, the diversity will only create marginal security improvements.

Re:I welcome reasonable standards.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a dissasters?

Apple Customer Service explained by the boss . . .

[TXISDude]

Quote: "He believes it's difficult for any company, including his, to be effective at satisfying both corporate buyers and consumers." from the article/posting. Maybe this explains why they don't even try to do either . . . just go down the list of failures,

Apple vs. Java http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/03/1929212
Apple Safari not ready for primetime (no anti-phishing) http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/03/2049205
iphone SDK http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/16/1435254 and http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/08/1932232
their treatment of Adobe (loss of Photoshop CS4 64bit) http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/04/1247246

need I go on? And I only went back a month!

True Apple believers will stick their heads in the sand and ignore this long running trend of contempt for customers, but enterprises do notice, and remember bad behaviors from their suppliers. Until the corporate culture changes (and evidently this belief comes from the top) Apple does not belong in the enterprise.

Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardware

[Qbertino]

Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardware. And *cheap* integrated unix & hardware. Of course it's gaining critical mass. Mac OS X is stepping in where Linux somehow couldn't reach within the last few years. I have yet to find anything remotely resembling the Mac Mini in bang for bug, handling, usability and stable MS-independant desktop applicability.

Which actually suprises me since Laptops are falling below the 500 Euro line regularly now. I wonder why nearly nobody hasn't built a cheap mac mini equivalent for the linux market yet.

That, however, could change quickly once prices drop below other barriers (Asus EEE anyone?). Once that happens, even Apple will have a tough time justifying a hermetic system, no matter how sleek it is.

Apple in the workplace...again.

[PopeRatzo]

Now here's a story we've heard a few dozen times before: More workers are asking for Macs in the workplace. But the answer is always the same: "The CFO said "too expensive"."

So unless you're an executive vice-president or higher, or you're one of the rare people in "Creative" that has any pull at all with the boardroom, you're gonna be looking at Windows for a long time to come.

This is unfortunate, of course, but it's the Way Things Are. Especially in an economic downturn. Hell, you're lucky to have a job, so you might want to think twice before making a fuss about wanting a nice new Mac.

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[MoeDumb]

"The Universe is too beautiful and complex to have been created by any God." What fools these atheists be!

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[countach]

"The CFO said "too expensive"

That CFO probably didn't price support costs, useful life and resale value.

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[Billly Gates]

I am thinking high support costs because the MCSE's are not trained to support mac users.

Add non integration with the CFO's must have outlook calander/scheduling app written in VBA and lack of integration with MS active directory services.

Macs are cheaper only if you start out with a mac friendly office. If you are heavily invested in vista, Windows server, and active directory the support costs can add up. Not to mention VB is one of the most popular languages in business.

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[nbritton]

Have your CFO look at the long term TCO of macs. The maintenance and administrative costs are much lower then windows... YMMV, at are company the up front costs are offset by reduced administrative costs.

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[PopeRatzo]

That CFO probably didn't price support costs, useful life and resale value.

Of course he didn't! If you've ever worked in an IT shop, you know the CFO never, ever thinks through these things. He's worried about the quarterly bottom line. That's it.

Re:Apple in the workplace...again.

[PopeRatzo]

As I've said above, CFO's only care about the quarterly bottom line, or at best, the annual. They don't care about 5 years down the road. Otherwise, we'd see more Mac shops in corporate offices, right?

Mac hardware usually superior, not inferior...

[MsGeek]

...finally someone gets it. Yeah, there have been disasters like the ATI GPU in iBook G3 debacle, and the explodey battery debacle, but Dell has hardware disasters too and so does everyone else. Macs usually are built with the best parts that Apple can get their hands on. Everyone else cheaps out and you are left with leaky capacitors after a couple of years use or other crap like that. The only other company who has been really good on quality parts was IBM when they still designed and made ThinkPads and enterprise desktops. (not Aptiva or the i-series ThinkPads, you can blame Acer for that) Lenovo has taken the brand and dragged it down to the same crappy level as everyone else (Used a Lenovo ThinkPad lately? PU!) but mas o menos Apple has kept the brand up. I've had a very happy MacBook since 2006...finest computer I've ever owned.

Re:Mac hardware usually superior, not inferior...

[Just Some Guy]

Everyone else cheaps out and you are left with leaky capacitors after a couple of years use or other crap like that.

Funny you should use that example. About a year ago, the video on my second-hand eMac starting flaking out, and a little bit of Googling turned up bad capacitors as the most likely cause. However, Apple recognized that as a problem with the model and extended warranty coverage for that one specific video card to three years. I dropped mine off at an Apple store literally two days before the extended warranty was set to expire, and they made good on the repairs.

I still much prefer Linux to OS X, but after that episode I feel completely comfortable recommending Apple hardware. When they do get a bad batch of parts, they stand behind fixing it.

Re:Mac hardware usually superior, not inferior...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good hardware indeed. Used to be better, but still better than the average PC World machine.

Have some Macs at work that are at least 15 years old and still in daily use running fine. In fact, out of an office with about 20 Macs in it, only one is sitting unused - and old machine whose HD died and it's been replaced by a newer machine so we haven't bothered fixing the drive yet... and compared to this we have 3 PC's in use and about 8 dead windows boxes which I'm constantly scavenging parts from to keep the 3 working machines alive - and none of that hardware is more than 5 years old - terrible build quality, but none of it was particularly cheap.

"Image"

[Digi-John]

If Apple gets big into the corporate market, their ads are going to have to change. When you're selling to businessmen in suits instead of unshaven hipsters in jeans, you can't exactly continue with the current ads. Unless Apple decides to do a lovely double-faced thing and market themselves as cool and indie to the coffeshop kids and as a really professional option to the corporate guys.
What happens when all the "creative" people discover that Apple is now marketing to The Man? Will we start seeing more Wintel laptops in the coffee shops?

Re:"Image"

[countach]

The businessmen in suits secretly want to be kool too. That's why their home machines are starting to be macs. The businessmen are fine with the current Apple image.

Re:"Image"

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If Apple gets big into the corporate market, their ads are going to have to change. When you're selling to businessmen in suits instead of unshaven hipsters in jeans, you can't exactly continue with the current ads.

I take it you managed to use an electric drill to destroy the part of your brain that contained all memory of the "Dell Dude." Congratulations, I considered that myself.

What happens when all the "creative" people discover that Apple is now marketing to The Man? Will we start seeing more Wintel laptops in the coffee shops?

Given the percentage of people that switch back after trying a Mac, I don't think Apple is too worried about that possibility.

Re:"Image"

[mstone]

---- If Apple gets big into the corporate market, their ads are going to have to change.

Been there. Done that. Back in 2006:

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

Look for the one titled "Self Pity".

Re:"Image"

[stewbacca]

Or you could take the product for what it is, instead of buying into the perception and image efforts of a marketing campaign (or the even more lame efforts of geeks everywhere to demonize the use of Macs). I've been trying to buck the "hipster" Mac stereotype for probably 20 years now. Ok, so I was a hipster wannabe in 1988 (the year I started college), but it took about, oh, a semester or two to outgrow that fad.

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[nostriluu]

I wonder why nearly nobody hasn't built a cheap mac mini equivalent for the linux market yet.

http://us.shuttle.com/KPC/

always go to the VAR

[Presto Vivace]

I avoid Apple stores and to to a Value Added Reseller instead. It is just easier.

Re:always go to the VAR

[v1]

or better yet, an AASP. Apple Authorized Service Provider

(guess where I work?)

Re:always go to the VAR

[smitty97]

(guess where I work?) your sig suggests otherwise...

Re:always go to the VAR

[Presto Vivace]

or better yet, an AASP. Apple Authorized Service Provider why I can't imagine ;)

Re:always go to the VAR

[digitalsolo]

Or, even better then that, check out an ASS Provider... Apple Super Service Provider...

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[jimicus]

True Apple believers will stick their heads in the sand and ignore this long running trend of contempt for customers, but enterprises do notice, and remember bad behaviors from their suppliers. Until the corporate culture changes (and evidently this belief comes from the top) Apple does not belong in the enterprise. You mean like people have learnt from Microsoft?

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[argent]

Apple vs Adobe is kind of like the Battle of Koom Valley. Whether Apple ambushed Adobe or Adobe ambushed Apple it's been going on and on all the way back to 1997 at least.

Anti-phishing? Give me a break. Apple's managed to only take three point something years to turn off the default "allow browser to do stupid things if it asks first" flag. Which sounds pretty bad, and I've been ragging on them about it since 2004, but I've been waiting for Microsoft to do something about the "allow browser to do REALLY stupid things if it asks first" function in IE for over 10 years now... and THAT doesn't even have an option to turn it off...

So on a scale of 1-10 in stupidity, Apple's lack of anti-phishing in Safari is about a 1, and Microsoft's ActiveX is about, oh, thirty thousand or so...

And if people were worried about bad behavior from companies, there's Microsoft's habit of ripping off developers, disabling people's computers by mistake, and the latest being Microsoft staking MSN music in the heart after telling people that "Plays for Sure" wasn't just a slogan...

Not to mention Vista.

Don't depend on good behavior from any company, and always ask "what have you done for us lately". Doesn't matter if it's Apple, Microsoft, or Ben & Jerry's.

GNUCash?

[Orion Blastar]

Ever heard of it? GNUCash anyone, anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

Re:GNUCash?

[walterbyrd]

What foss financial software seems to be missing:

All of the following is based my limited understanding, and my opinions. Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

* Cost advantage: QuickBooks simple start is free:
http://quickbooks.intuit.com/product/accounting-software/free-accounting-software.jhtml
Or I can buy the full version of QuickBooks in only $128:
http://www.qbpro2008.com/quickbooks-2008-coupons-for-amazon/
Seems to me that any cost advantage of using a foss alternative is negligible.

* Ease of use: Somewhat debatable. But some people site this as a primary reason for Intuit's amazing success with QuickBooks - supposedly 87% of small businesses use QuickBooks. Although, I have to wonder how the number of foss users can be accurately counted?

* Integration with online banking: my understanding is that only intuit or msft products can easily integrate with online banking. Not absolutely sure about that.

* Payroll: very regional, and changes often == not well suited for foss.

* Taxes: somewhat regional, and changes often == not well suited for foss.

* Wide acceptance: I think most businesses are much more comfortable using products that are accepted standards.

* Wealth of available add-ons: Intuit has a very active community of 3rd party developers. You can buy practically any kind of an add-on you can imagine. These add-ons cost money, but at least they are available.

* Major company: I think a lot of businesses are not comfortable with a product unless there is a major company behind that product. I have to admit, even I am not comfortable with software products that are essentially one man operations.

* Support: I can always hire somebody who knows quickbooks, or find a "ProAdvisor" consultant, or I can get support from the company, and there are hundreds - if not thousands - of developers who specialize in developing for quickbooks. I can not see where that is true for any project.

* Training availability and costs. I can hire people who already know quickbooks. If I hire somebody to work on some foss alternative, then there will be a significant training expense. Of course, there is also the issue of training availability.

* Documentation: If I had to pick one thing that kills the usefulness of more foss projects than anything else, this would win in a slam-dunk. Of course, this varies among projects, some foss projects have great documentation. But, I can always find plenty of books, or other documentation for popular proprietary financial apps.

* Many accountants, maybe as many as 200,000, use QB and recommend it to their clients. Some accountants will charge much more for files that are not in QB format.

* QB has much better 3rd party integration. For example, ecommerce packages like oscommerce, and magento, work with quickbooks, not foss alternatives. Msft accounting works with ebay. I can not find that sort of integration with foss software.

Re:GNUCash?

[n0dna]

"I am aware of the f/oss accounting apps, like gnucash, or ledgersmb, but none of those are adaquate for most SMBs."

Looks like he might have, yes.

Re:GNUCash?

[Orion Blastar]

It is debatable if GNUCash is not adequate for most SMBs. Most SMBs don't need that much accounting that Quickbooks offers. Besides what other Accounting software exists for Linux? I don't think he really knows what GNUCash really is, which is why I linked to it so he can RTFM.

Re:GNUCash?

[walterbyrd]

> I don't think he really knows what GNUCash really is

Do you really know what an SMB really is? An SMB is not necessarily a mom-and-pop operation. An SMB might have 250 employees, and have 250 million a year in revenue. An SMB might need a multi-level MRP system, or job costing, or payroll, or sophisticated inventory management, or integration with an ecommerce system, or any of great number of other things that are not provided by gnucash.

> Besides what other Accounting software exists for Linux?

That is my point. Accounting software is vital to any SMB, and there seems to be no viable accounting software for SMBs that is not msft based. In the USA, intuit has about 80% of the market, the other 20% belongs to sage and msft. Linux SMB accounting software includes: SQL-Ledger, LedgerSMB, Compiere, and TinyERP. None of them will do what QB will do.

Re:GNUCash?

[dbrutus]

What SMBs really need is something their accountant can work with. That most often is Quickbooks. When you get an accountant who starts pushing gnucash, it'll start getting penetration in his client base. Get enough accountants and QB will have a real competitor on its hands.

Re:GNUCash?

[Orion Blastar]

I know what a SMB is, and I answered his stupid questions here.

Obviously you never used GNUCash or read any FAQs or manuals either.

Re:GNUCash?

[Orion Blastar]

GNUCash can export to QIF format which Quickbooks can use. So just give your accountant the QIF data file via a CDR or DVDR like you would have using Quickbooks.

I guess you don't know what International Data File Format Standards really are, do you, much less know how a computer works?

Re:GNUCash?

[walterbyrd]

Take a look at these sites:

http://marketplace.intuit.com/
http://quickbooks-add-ons.com/

Notice all the application for the construction industry, property management, inventory management, point of sale, and so on? All of those apps integrate with QB. Now tell me there is something similar in gnucash.

GNUCash may be okay for an individual, or a mom-and-pop operation, but I don't see where it is adequate for complicated medium business.

Re:GNUCash?

[Orion Blastar]

These people disagree with you:

AAXNet

Slashdot

About.com

But then you've proved yourself to be a shill for Quickbooks. Why should anyone listen to you?

Re:GNUCash?

[dbrutus]

You would guess wrong, monkey boy.

Here's a clue from the real world. Most business owners *not* in the accounting field just want to get this accounting business taken care of without a lot of fuss or muss. They don't care much about how it gets done and the difference between the price of QB and GNUCash = about 45 minutes thinking about it and switching to such a minority platform deserves a lot more than 45 minutes worth of consideration. So unless you have a bee in your bonnet over the philosophical principle of the whole thing (which describes just a tiny minority of business owners) Intuit wins, and GNUCash fanatics get to grind their teeth some more.

GNUCash has to do something positive that QB does not and that's very likely going to come from an up and coming innovative young turk accountant who wants to make a name for himself and finds unique value in GNUCash or some other Intuit competitor. As his accounting business grows, GNUCash starts to develop its own ecosystem of people who have used it and who want to use it in their next place of employment. If that hotshot accountant is really good, he'll start to attract his own blind followers and they'll latch on to GNUCash like they latch on to his shirt styles, unthinking but hopeful that all that imitation will make them a buck anyway.

Adoption in the mainstream for Free Software is going to often depend on identifying your proper market targets. You've yet to figure that out.

see this is why Apple is failing

[Trepidity]

If Jobs knew anything, he'd stick to taking his advice from Slashdot UIDs that are three digits or less.

Re:see this is why Apple is failing

[Kjella]

Given the price tag on low-id accounts, I think that'd be the cheapest takeover in history...

Predicting shift, not demise

[SuperKendall]

I'm not predicting the demise of PC gaming. I'm predicting more and more gaming is moving to consoles. Since most games are released on consoles now before PC's (if they ever make it to a PC) the progression is clear, even if this was not blindingly obvious from sales figures today.

Computers will always be used for games, but they will no longer be the primary systems used for games. That's not death.

depends on what you mean by happened

[Trepidity]

PC gaming is down below 15% of the total gaming market, which is starting to approach irrelevance on comparative terms at least.

Re:depends on what you mean by happened

[Nicolay77]

The reason for that is that EA bought almost all good game companies.

However, we still have Blizzard.

Wonder if my overlords at Dell would allow a Mac?

[MisplacedLonghorn]

It's interesting to read about Werners buying Macs for those employees who wish to use them. I wonder if Michael Dell would let me use one at corp HQ? :-)

Not one point right I see

[SuperKendall]

It's amazing how ignorant Apple haters are:

Apple vs. Java

Apple has always lagged a little behind Java. Clue for you: Companies lag even FURTHER behind. A lot of companies I know are not yet off Java 4!!

Apple Safari not ready for primetime (no anti-phishing)

If you really "read back" as you said, you'd have seen PayPal had no intention of banning Safari. It's not like anti-phishing stuff works all that well anyway or companies have a huge demand for it.

iphone SDK

Oh yeah, like lack of compatibility with OSS licenses is likely to mean squat to a COMPANY. And whining about a beta release that's unusable for a few hours? Get real!! Real companies do not deploy beta to production.

their treatment of Adobe (loss of Photoshop CS4 64bit)

And in your final act of your stupidity quadfecta, you call a delay a loss and ignore that Adobe is as much to blame as Apple.

They must pour you guys all out of the same mold - and forget to wash out the brain mold between uses.

The only way to win...

[SuperKendall]

At least on the PC, if there are not cheat codes, there's always a way.

There is on the console as well.

To quote Wargames:

"The only way to win - is not to play".

True of a number of games I have played.

Flannel?

[flokati]

You mean wool? Unless we're talking about corporate pajamas...

Re:Flannel?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Flannel? You mean wool? Unless we're talking about corporate pajamas...

Technically, flannel is made of wool. Although often it is used to refer to a wool/cotton or wool/synthetic blend. In the states people use the term to refer to all cotton clothing sometimes.

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[sessamoid]

I wonder why nearly nobody hasn't built a cheap mac mini equivalent for the linux market yet.

http://us.shuttle.com/KPC/ That shuttle is about 550 cu. in. The Mac mini is 84 cu. in. I hardly think a box 6.5 times larger than the Mac mini could be considered comparable.

Astroturf?

[Orion Blastar]

How much did Intuit pay you to post that?

Amazon.com coupon expired April 15th

[Orion Blastar]

got any fresh ones?

N00b!

[Orion Blastar]

RTF FAQs! If the bank uses CSV, QIF, or OFX formated file uploads, it does support online banking. You really need to RTFM before you bash FOSS.

Re:N00b!

[walterbyrd]

> If the bank uses CSV, QIF, or OFX formated file uploads, it does support online banking. You really need to RTFM before you bash FOSS.

Thank you for correcting me on that. Now what all all the other points I made?

* Cost advantage.
* Ease of use.
* Payroll.
* Taxes.
* Wide acceptance.
* Wealth of available add-ons.
* Major company.
* Support.
* Training availability and costs.
* Accountants recomendation.
* 3rd party integration.

Re:N00b!

[Orion Blastar]

I guess you never read Slashdot?

Cost advantage, at some time you will need the Quickbooks Pro $199 version and that Amazon.com coupon expired.

Ease of use, both Quickbooks and GNUCash have a user friendly GUI. Have you actually ever used GNUCash?

Payroll, RTFM about Payroll obviously you never read the manual, n00b!

Taxes, GNUCash uses the EU term VAT and the FAQ covers accounting questions including tax questions and GNUCash supports taxes.

Wide acceptance, hard to track who uses GNUCash because it cannot be tracked by sales receipts. But I know of many small businesses in my area that use it.

addons are covered in the FAQs Customizing and The Plugins development page.

Major company, hah Slashdot you are using it is built with open source software and it isn't a major company. FOSS software doesn't need major companies, the community supports it. But companies like IBM support FOSS software like Linux and GNUCash and OpenOffice.Org is that major enough for you?

Support, yes tons of it if you know how to read manuals and FAQS, which obviously you don't.

Training availability and costs, most GNUCash training is free over the Internet in Wiki sites and PDF files. Books are written on it as well.

Accountants recommendation, accountants recommended and gave support to X-Accountant which GNUCash is based on and existed before Quickbooks.

3rd Party integration, if you read the FAQs and Manual, you'll know it integrates with OfficeOffice.org very well as Excel and other software, as well as has an API that programmers can follow to write plugins.

Next time do your own homework before you dis a FOSS software.

Re:N00b!

[walterbyrd]

> Cost advantage, at some time you will need the Quickbooks Pro $199 version and that Amazon.com coupon expired.

I see QB 2008 Pro at Amazon for $125. There is still a free version of QB 2008. And even $199 is not prohibitively expensive.

> Ease of use, both Quickbooks and GNUCash have a user friendly GUI. Have you actually ever used GNUCash?

There is more to ease of use than that.

> Payroll, RTFM about Payroll [gnucash.org] obviously you never read the manual, n00b!

Okay this is directly from TFM: "GnuCash does not (yet) have an integrated payroll system. What this means is that while you can track payroll expenses in GnuCash, the actual calculation of taxes and deductions will have to be done outside of GnuCash."

> Taxes, GNUCash uses the EU term VAT [gnucash.org] and the FAQ covers accounting questions including tax questions [gnucash.org] and GNUCash supports taxes.

Does gnucash make anything like turbotax that directly plugs into the accounting system?

> Major company, hah Slashdot you are using it is built with open source software and it isn't a major company

WTF does that have to do with anything? When companies buy accounting software, they often want a major company behind the software. That has nothing to with what website I visit.

> Support, yes tons of it if you know how to read manuals and FAQS, which obviously you don't.

There is much more to support than that. Besides, it's not about what *I* want, it is what SMBs want.

> Training availability and costs, most GNUCash training is free over the Internet in Wiki sites and PDF files. Books are written on it as well.

There is more to "training" than documentation.

> Accountants recommendation, accountants recommended and gave support to X-Accountant which GNUCash is based on and existed before Quickbooks.

From what I have read, and seen, accountants over-whelming recommend QB.

> 3rd Party integration, if you read the FAQs and Manual, you'll know it integrates with OfficeOffice.org very well as Excel and other software, as well as has an API that programmers can follow to write plugins.

How about my ecomm web-site? How about hundreds, maybe thousands, of applications like MRP systems, property management, inventory management, job costing, and so on?

> Next time do your own homework before you dis a FOSS software.

I am not dis'ing anything. Would I be dis'ing Linux if I stated that Linux has less than 2% of the desktop market, and Linux does not run many applications that many people consider important?

Very few people consider Linux a viable alternative on the desktop, it's a fact, live with it. Similarly very few people consider GNUCash a viable alternative to QB.

Prove me wrong?

[walterbyrd]

I desperately wish there was an alternative to Intuit for SMBs. I especially wish there was an alternative for Linux.

Unfortunately, even msft can not put a dent in intuit's strangle-hold on that market. As I understand it, intuit controls well over 80% of the SMB market for accounting software, the rest of the market is split between sage and msft. If I am wrong about that, please set me straight - and provide your source.

If there is a f/oss alternative, what is it? Please make sure that alternative has:

- an extensive network of consultants
- an extensive network of developers
- add-ons for practically everything any SMB might want - payroll, taxes, etc.
- can match all of QB's features, reporting, check printing, connecting with banks, etc.

BTW: I use debian as home desktop. I have a Linux certification, and use Linux professionally. Also, if you look at my other posts here, and on desktoplinux, linuxquestions, and elsewhere, you will see that I have been a f/oss supporter for many years.

Again, I wish there was an alternative to intuit, but I just don't see it.

Re:Prove me wrong?

[Orion Blastar]

Top seven commercial accounting software packages for SMBs:

1. BusinessVision 32 (Best Software)

2. Small Business Manager (Microsoft)
3. M.Y.O.B (M.Y.O.B. Software)
4. Peachtree Complete Accounting 2004 (Best Software)
5. QuickBooks Pro 2003 (Intuit)

6. Simply Accounting (Best Software)
7. Vision Point 2000 (Best Software)

I guess Peachtree doesn't ring any bells? My old accountant used to use it a lot and loved it for SMBs.

The list of free and open source financial software at Wikipedia.

Ever get tired of being wrong?

For Years He Seemed Like A Normal Person

[meehawl]

BOFH #33

"One of our... colleagues... I suppose you could say," I reply. "Seems to have turned out to be a complete basket case."

"Had a breakdown?" the Boss asks. "Worse." "Hurt himself?" "Worse than that."

"Is he dead?" the Boss gasps. "No, but he probably wishes he was." "You mean he hurt others?!" "Uh-huh."

"He was such a quiet bloke too," the PFY says shaking his head.

"Kept to himself a lot?" the Boss prompts.

"Yeah, but he was an IT person, so that hardly counts," I reply.

"So he was... a serial killer?"

"What?! No, no. He was... uh... late... for a Linux users group last week... and so the geeks started to get a bit worried about him..." "And?"

"And so they went round his place fearing he might have had an accident, you know, open chassis, high voltage, cup of coffee that sort of thing..." "Yes?"

"So they broke in when there was no answer to the door..." "Yes?!"

"And when they got to his front room they found..." "YES?!?!" the Boss gags.

"Macs. Stacks of them!" "Macs?" "Apple Mac 'computers'." "He was a MAC USER!" the PFY said. "For years he'd been living a lie!"

"I don't see..." "He was a MAC USER!" I say. "I mean it's bad enough being an Apple user, but Macs as well! He'd been at it for years, too. When they broke into his basement they found Power Macs, Quadras... They even found... a Lisa."

"No!" the PFY gasps. "It's true!" I say. "And it was still warm!" "So he wasn't just experimenting!" the PFY says in hushed tones.

"Oh he inhaled alright! I talked to his family and friends, but none of them had any idea."

"They're always the last to know," the PFY says, shaking his head.

"So let me get this straight," the Boss says. "You're concerned because your friend..."

"Colleague," the PFY says, but even that makes him twinge. "...Uses Apple computers."

"I think you mean Apple 'computers'," the PFY says, inserting the missing quote marks. "And that's a problem?"

"Look, for years he seemed like a normal person!" the PFY says. "He ate with us, drank with us - we thought he WAS one of us. But all along he was hiding a nasty secret!"

"What's wrong with Apples?" "They're just not real computers," the PFY says. "They're the piano accordion of the computing world, entertaining, but not made for professionals."

"Our Graphics people..." "Yeah, but they're not professionals. They'd be just as happy with crayons and finger paints!"

Re:For Years He Seemed Like A Normal Person

[SuperKendall]

Didn't have time to read your odd FanFic, but I just thought I'd add a note that everyone uses Macs now - not just IT or Mac guys. It's not just IT guys using macs at home and bringing them in - it's the VP's and above....

If you like to stay in the lower caste by using systems less efficient and making everyone around you look better, by all means enjoy your shoveling or whatever you do down there.

Re:For Years He Seemed Like A Normal Person

[Knara]

BOFH is not an "odd fanfic", but rather an institution unto itself.

You should know better with a UID as low as yours.

Re:For Years He Seemed Like A Normal Person

[SuperKendall]

I said I didn't have time to read it. Thus I didn't parse it as BOFH, just a lot of stupid text (at least related to the discussion at hand it was stupid).

I read BOFH back in college but haven't for a decade or two, he was trying to use it to make an invalid point which I then corrected.

So technically I guess I didn't "lose" but I definitely won.

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[c_forq]

Unless my math is off, the KPC is 552.75 Cubic Inches. The Mac Mini is 84.5. That is almost a sevenfold increase.

Road maps, schmoad maps

[rubies]

They were always little more than FUD designed to keep whoever is currently on top, on top. Has your competitor announced a funky new feature your customers want? Put it in the roadmap at 18 months away to mollify them and stop them from switching. The old roadmaps for OSF/Windows/os2 etc. were worth less than the glossy cardboard they were distributed on. Nothings changed in the 20 years since then.

Totally A

[theolein]

What Sony needs to do to get a piece of this action is release the PS3 with a builtin Linux distro (not a kit like it is now), with Open Office, Evolution and Firefox, like Ubuntu.

Then I can frag during coffee breaks.

You Lose At Geekdom

[meehawl]

Didn't have time to read your odd FanFic

If you haven't heard of BOFH, then you're not a true geek, you're just a pretender dilettante.

I am so far from "shovelling" that your remark is amusing, but I am saddened to see you are still as fanatically rude as ever, especially considering the rather innocuous content of my earlier reply. Here's a clue: you're doing it wrong.

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[Anonymous Coward]

That shuttle is about 550 cu. in. The Mac mini is 84 cu. in. I hardly think a box 6.5 times larger than the Mac mini could be considered comparable. Not to mention the Shuttle's faster (and bigger) desktop parts and price tag that's $300 less than the Mac mini (which has some integrated components that many buyers don't want/need).

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[dbIII]

On my desk at the moment:

http://www.dsl-ltd.co.uk/productspec.aspx?ProdID=eBox-III

To be honest most of the time it actually runs Win2k.

Docking Station!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Yes, yes. There are three of us in my office who would ditch our Mac desktops for our mac laptops if we had a docking station that the laptop would just slide into.
 
However we do have rules about not putting "sensitive" data on laptops - even if encrypted. So in some case that portability has limits. Syncing is ok but tiresome...

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[WuphonsReach]

The closest Mac Mini clone that is x86 and runs Windows is probably the Pandora.

It's a very tiny unit (about the same size as the Mac Mini) with similar capabilities. We just ordered one, so I can't speak to longevity, but it does what it's supposed to and fits in small spaces.

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[His Shadow]

True Apple believers will stick their heads in the sand and ignore this long running trend of contempt for customers,

You are an idiot. In the age of Microsoft's wanton abuse of users of all shapes and sizes in every market, you can pull this hissy fit out of your ass without a hint of irony? Good job. It never ceases to amaze me that those that spend the most time repeating of the cliche of the "arrogant Mac user" are whiny, arrogant assholes such as yourself, seemingly oblivious to the actual damage Microsoft has done to personal computing.

Zealot Oriented

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep seeing these articles on the Mac in Enterprise. As much as you want it, it ain't happening any time soon.

Former AppleCare perspective...

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked for AppleCare for 2004/2005, I don't know if anything has changed since then (some how I doubt it). I can tell you at least from my little corner at that time Apple really wasn't set up for corporate support.

For one thing they would have us sit there and troubleshoot every call to its fullest. I would get calls expecting us to act like Dell, as in mention a bad part and expect it to shipped right away. Oh no, we have to ask questions and troubleshoot even corporate customers. As opposed to Dell and their "gold membership" 800 number.

Before Apple I had job where I had to call Dell regularly. Their Gold 800 number was extremely good: the [American] tech support would simply ask a couple questions and the part was on the way out, arriving often within 24 hours.

Apple has nothing like that. I assume because they do not have contracts with larger suppliers keeping extremely large stocks of all their spare parts. Now that Apple is more PC-like with x86 and all this could be changing (again, I doubt it).

Not that I'm an expert or anything but I was starting to assume companies care more about the service contract for phone support and hardware replacement than the brands. Since Dell can provide phone and hardware support and that all works alongside the server end of it that's what the companies go with. They don't really care about the brand (Dell this week, HP next week, GateWay or Toshiba or whatever the next) only the support contracts that make the most sense financially. Until Apple can put that kind of support structure in place I don't think they'll make large inroads in the corporate world.

Also, not booting Ghost or DriveImage...what hell is that? Those seem to be the deployment methods of choice for so many companies...

Docking Stations: Yes!

[clay_buster]

Docks are a big win in the corporate environment. I worked at a large lending institution where we had a couple thousand Dell Latitude machines with docks and external monitors. They all had VPN installed so that the company controlled the machines that connected to the network even when folks worked from home. I liked the setup so much that I bought a dock for home and plugged in my two external monitors. It's pretty nice. I don't think the folks at apple realize how useful docking stations are because they don't have experience with them. They eat their own dog food and they don't make dockable laptops.

WTF?

[walterbyrd]

What is the point of that post? What is it supposed to prove?

Are you trying to say that MYOB, or whatever, is more popular that QB? If so, I would love to see your source. I don't mean wikipedia, I mean the primary source that made such a determination.

Re:WTF?

[Orion Blastar]

The source is here eat it fanboy!

You said there are no alternatives to Quickbooks, Peachtree is one such alternative.

OneSource vs. Quickbooks and Peachtree.

Re:WTF?

[walterbyrd]

Don't be an idiot. Those are the *opinions* of one person. Google quickbooks market share - read it and weep.

Everyone seems to think iMac when they say Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

however, iMac is definitely not a business machine. The target for them is home user who only wants a machine for entertainment (watching movies, playing mp3s, watching TV, making an album here and there) and writing emails etc. No games though.

They are also underpowered machines. And with Apple's horrible video drivers even what would otherwise be ok entry level video cards act like utter crap.

Now Mac Pros are a different story. They are end user serviceable and parts are replaceable however, Mac Pros are also too much of a computer for majority of business users. Now for software developers, or engineers (after you install Windows Vista 64 bit on it), it actually a decent and competitively priced computer for that market segment. It's just that not everyone runs 2 database servers, a web (or application) server, 2 IDEs and compiles stuff all at the same time and hence doesn't need a machine as powerful.

Well, some employees do want Macs...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Many companies are finding that their employees are pushing for the transition more than Apple itself."

Well, I see that myself where I work. Unfortunately, it's usually like this:

"I meed an Apple computer."
"You do? Why?"
"We should get rid of all these Dells and get more Macs."
"Okay, what do you need to do on a Mac that you can't do on your current PC?"
"Well...if we got Macs we wouldn't have problems with viruses."
"When's the last time we had a virus on the network? Can you remember?"
"No, but Macs are better."
"So what you're telling me is that the reason you want a Mac is because you just want one but don't really know why."
"..."
"That's what I thought."

I love the smell...

[BiOFH]

I love the smell of frightened MCSEs in the morning!
Or do we simply call it fear of 'something I know nothing about'?
"Mac bad! Beat on Mac! Me no like, want smash! Get away! Make scared! No understand!"

Speaking from personal experience...

[RogueWarrior65]

I worked at a Fortune 500 company that had the classic Mac vs. PC battle. I oversaw the Macs used in design and constantly fought the morons in the IT department. In a corporate environment, what it ultimately boils down to is head-count. One person can administer around 100 Macs (and these were early 90s Macs which are much more problematic than today's machines). The quantity of PCs one person can handle is MUCH smaller thus more people are needed. To the chief information officer, that means they command more people and have more power.

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[stewbacca]

So on a scale of 1-10 in stupidity, Apple's lack of anti-phishing in Safari is about a 1. Maybe Apple has seen the research that finds Mac users are more intelligent than PC users, so aggressive anti-phishing features aren't necessary? (ducks...)

If you make the case that they're losing money

[crovira]

in the consumer electronics space, you might get some movement. Good luck.

Jobs doesn't give a sht about the corporate market share.

Never did. Apple was not founded to give corporate players a break. It was founded because corporate players wouldn't give anyone a break.

His products either sell themselves there or screw it.

The only reason X-Serve even exists is because customers just about created it themselves.

Re:Mac OS X is a usable Unix with integrated hardw

[gobbo]

I looked hard at bringing the KPC up to the Mini's functionality, and it would cost more, plus be kludgey, and take lots of my time (at $40/hr, too much).

It's tough to match the features of a tiny box the size of 5 stacked cd cases that can edit video (ETC.) right after it's turned on. Ubuntu's close, mind you, but not there yet... and it's usually lots of work to get going. (For the record, apple doesn't make a machine that suits me, though I use them... I want a mini-tower.)

Long ago, I decided to factor interface and usability into the speed of a machine. The real upgrade is between the ears; the less stress in struggling with making it work, the faster the machine.

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[argent]

What browser would you recommend for people who aren't able to learn how not to be phished?

IE's right out: it's really not safe for anyone but a trained security professional, the way it asks people to make snap decisions about complex security matters all the time.

Opera, maybe. Firefox? I don't really trust it... the security model still has a path for objects inside the sandbox to request that they be installed outside the sandbox.

I suspect lynx is pretty secure.

Re:Apple Customer Service explained by the boss .

[stewbacca]

I don't recommend any browser, per se. The only thing I suggest is a bit of user awareness. I don't think it is the job of any browser to cover our collective stupidity of clicking on overtly bogus links that are just trying to steal our money.

(Mac tops Consumer Reports Tech Support survey

[david.emery]

Just providing a pointer to this summary on Macworld: [http://www.macworld.com/article/133293/2008/05/consumer.html]

dave

TCO ??? ROI ????

[Nicolay77]

You sound like a laptop salesman.

Sure, laptops have several advantages, but also trade-offs.

I can imagine several scenarios where a desktop is far more cost effective than a laptop. Not everyone has to go to visit clients, for a start. Some people do, some do not. Some people need powerful video cards, ergonomic keyboards, etc. (things that laptops can't have).

Your post simply increased by two the possibility of completing the bullshit bingo in this slashdot article. (And yes, I know what those TLA mean).