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Getting the "Free" Business Model Wrong Doesn't Mean the Model is Flawed

While "free" seems to be an increasingly popular business model, there are quite a few people who seem to be completely bungling what to do with "free" and then complaining when it doesn't work. Techdirt takes a look at some of the arguments surrounding why free as a business model may or may not work and why many of these arguments, while prevalent, just don't hold water. "you give away the infinite goods, not the scarce goods. Your time is a scarce good. No one is saying that everything needs to be free -- they're saying that infinite goods will be free, because of it's very nature in economics. In fact, Poole's argument is particularly weak when it comes to programmers, because most programmers don't earn any kind of royalties for the software they write. They are paid a salary, for their time -- but not for the software itself (which is an infinite good). And, I won't even get into the number of programmers who work on open source projects for free ... or the fact that Poole is blogging for free ..."

62 of 218 comments (clear)

  1. I laugh by bobwrit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I laugh when I see people complaining when free woftware has bugs in it. I reply to that with "And Windows never has any problems or bugs" They stop at that point because they relize that the free software is better than the commercial software, and they don't complain about the commercial software.

    --
    -- (this is a sig) My Computer Programming Forumhttp://www.programers.co.nr/
    1. Re:I laugh by jeiler · · Score: 5, Informative

      I wish I could be so lucky. My boss won't let FOSS anywhere near the system with the exception of one lonely PC set up as a webserver. He knows commercial software has its problems--his biggest problem with FOSS is "lack of support." I've tried showing him that there is support available, but when he wants support, he wants to be able to pick up a phone and get an answer the same business day.

      Of course, this is the same boss who says "I'm not using anything I need to compile myself." Go figure!

      --

      If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

      Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

    2. Re:I laugh by basiles · · Score: 5, Informative

      I wish I could be so lucky. My boss won't let FOSS anywhere near the system with the exception of one lonely PC set up as a webserver. He knows commercial software has its problems--his biggest problem with FOSS is "lack of support." I've tried showing him that there is support available, but when he wants support, he wants to be able to pick up a phone and get an answer the same business day.

      He can buy that kind of support. Of course, it is probably expensive!
    3. Re:I laugh by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly. What he said!

      When people that I deal with sit down, open a few documents, surf a bit, check out pictures on their camera... well, they almost invariably say "oh, it's just like MS. What is it called again?" Then after a bit more conversation, I have to explain that they don't need windows to run GNU/Linux, that it's a free alternative to MS Windows and it has alternatives for all the MS software that you have been using. In fact, some of it is better than MS software, and all of it is free! Mind you, you can contribute/donate to projects/software that you find very useful, but you don't have to give them hundreds or even tens of dollars. You can install it on any number of machines, and it won't prompt you for a license key. It has none of those MS annoyances. All software has some, that is how things work, but GNU/Linux importantly is missing the really nasty annoyances like fees, and restrictions etc.

      Once that sinks in, they agree that it really is a cool thing. Linux good, MS... not so much.

    4. Re:I laugh by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ask him when the last time was he picked up the phone and called MS and asked them for support? What kind of response did he get? How much did they charge? Then look at the kind of and cost of support available for products like Red Hat. Ask him how what MS provides is better.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    5. Re:I laugh by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Are you a programmer, or is there someone in your organization who is? Support doesn't necessarily mean your boss has to call some other company. You could learn the desired products well enough to provide basic support yourself (assuming your boss will pay you for the time spent doing so).

      If your boss isn't interested in paying someone internally to learn the products well enough to support them, he/she probably isn't really interested in spending money outside the organization either, no matter what the license on the product might be.

      With software support, you pay up front for the software, or pay for support after the sale, or both. Even in cases where you get support included with the package, you've gotta ask what level that support is. If your boss wants to be able to pick up a phone and "get answers the same day" it's gonna cost. If he wants solutions (i.e. fixes) the same day (or ever in many cases), that's gonna cost a lot more. No matter how you slice it, money will be spent.

      For many applications, I'm convinced it makes a lot of sense to go with an open source solution that has a very active development community. Couple that with someone in your organization who understands the product, and reasonable support can be had for a lot less money than comparable commercial solutions.

    6. Re:I laugh by jeiler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you a programmer, or is there someone in your organization who is?

      I am--but the catchphrase for our department is "We don't code. Ever."

      It's not a situation that's at all logical, and he knows that taking an absolute stand against FOSS isn't rational. But this is the same guy who will cheerfully pay $450 per hour for a consultant to come in and do something that we can (and have) done.

      On the plus side, he keeps the rest of the departments off our backs, and gives us the tools and the freedom to do what we have to do. And if we make a decision--provided that it's within the limits of "allowed" software--he will back us to the hilt. So it's not all bad.

      --

      If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

      Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

    7. Re:I laugh by baffled · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe I'm too proud, or maybe I'm too cheap - but I've never contacted support from either MS or Red Hat. Perhaps someone who has could detail their experiences here? I'm interested to see how they compare.

    8. Re:I laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft's paid support is pretty good in terms of price/performance, as long as you can prove to their satisfaction that anything you call them about is caused by a previously undocumented bug in their software. One of my coworkers (working on Exchange integration) has had 12 of 13 $250 support ticket charges refunded on that account.

      That said, I wholeheartedly agree that putting an OSS project's maintainer on retainer is generally speaking far more effective; getting a phone number to call to talk to one of the people who actually writes the code is a far sight better than any commercially offered support I've been beneficiary of thus far... and having the source code and access to the dev mailing list (and thus the ability to DIY on simple things) is likewise helpful. That said -- if you can prove to their satisfaction that your problems are all their fault, MS's commercial support isn't as bad as you suggest.

    9. Re:I laugh by davolfman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The trick with in house experts is they move on to other things. If your expert works for the manufacturer you have something of a guarantee that the expertise will always be at the other end of the phone line.

    10. Re:I laugh by AlecC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From my experience, you can buy support for any FOSS package worth mentioning, at a price that still beats commercial rivals. It is also my experience that the support thus purchased is outstandingly better than that for paid-for software. Problem responses within four hours, from somebody who really understands the system, instead of taking to weeks to dig through layers of ignoramuses to get to the expert. This, I conjecture, is because FOSS support teams live or die by the quality of support, whereas paid-for software put the best developers onto new features and regard support as very much a second-line function.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    11. Re:I laugh by Crazyswedishguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not only "lack of support". It's also a question of liability. Who do you sue when things go wrong? It's much easier to hold a company liable when you paid for their product.

      --
      This space up for sale.
    12. Re:I laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your boss does not want support. He just wants to cover his ass. If you have downtime because of a MS bug that takes months to fix, he can point the finger to MS and probably get away with it.
      If this happens with a FOSS product, upper management will start asking questions and eventually blame him for the choice of software. Your boss knows this.

    13. Re:I laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
      My company recently paid something around $300 for resolving our problem with MS Server 2003. The call did resolve the issue, BTW.

      We also paid $25,000 to LinuxWorks for 5 seats/1 year support (we had 2 seats only but LW did not have 2 seats packages). The support itself was not good (they have used outsourced clueless developers from India). At the end, we resolved all our problems ourselves.

    14. Re:I laugh by Rakishi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who do you sue when things go wrong? Cry because that's about all you can do, you've already agreed when buying the software that you do not hold the maker liable for anything.
    15. Re:I laugh by mehemiah · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, but first you must read their EULA. For example, before we go into a contract, the other company must sign a contract for us. one denied because we had a clause in the contract to the tune of "you will be held responsible for loss of life resulting from the use of your software". In their defence, it was a resource management system that managed hardware. it was so fine grained and expensive that I could see someone jumping off a building after paying for it and seeing that it's crap(or miss managed medical equipment but we don't do that). I could see someone dieing because their cvs import was flawed also (in the same way).

    16. Re:I laugh by westlake · · Score: 2, Informative
      Ask him when the last time was he picked up the phone and called MS and asked them for support?

      This always sounds like a great comeback...

      But if your boss is comfortable with where he is now it is probably because he is getting the support he needs and at a price he thinks is reasonable.

      He is not seeing the kind of problems that would make rebuilding his business around a Red Hat solution worthwhile.

    17. Re:I laugh by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They stop at that point because they relize that the free software is better than the commercial software
      I'll just stop you there. Free software is generally very good, but the top spot of most (all?) software fields is usually occupied by a piece of (often expensive) proprietary software. For instance, open office just isn't quite as good as Microsoft Office, the GIMP isn't as good as Photoshop, Rosegarden isn't as good as finale, etc. Still, for zero dollars down, they have my support (even if they sometimes don't have the support of professionals in the field).
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    18. Re:I laugh by killjoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Because on any other issue besides FOSS,

      The issue is not FOSS. The issue is your bosses ability to make sound and rational decisions.

      >He's been CIO of where I work for over 20 years, and not shot himself in the foot yet.

      Except this one time. You yourself admit the decision is irrational.

      Maybe his mind is going. Maybe he has brain tumor. Maybe he is ill in some other way.

      Either way he has lost the ability to make rational decisions. He is making decisions based on ignorance and superstition.

      In short he was become a zealot. He has ruled out an entire category of solutions simply because of some ideological belief.

      Trust me this is not going to end up well for anybody involved with the company.

      People like that should not be put in position of responsibility.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    19. Re:I laugh by lena_10326 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also a question of liability. Who do you sue when things go wrong? It's much easier to hold a company liable when you paid for their product.
      Business by definition is a venture riddled with risk. Managers try to minimize risk, but it's always there. I find it strange that those managers frequently bet the company on core products developed in-house, which aren't even proven business models, yet refuse to be willing to bet on FOSS.
      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    20. Re:I laugh by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I can't vouch for Red Hat, but here's a bit of my experience with MS support.

      My question: I plan to ackquire VS 2008. Could you please inform me about the differences between the various packages you offer, so I could pick the license(s) that suit our needs best?

      One would assume that it, being a question dealing with making a sale, first of all has some sort of priority and second, should be part of a standard info. I was actually surprised that I couldn't find the info online, but maybe I just didn't manage to find it.

      The answer was that the service rep doesn't know and he will escalate the question. After that, a week of silence. After that week, I got an email with a link to a page giving me admittedly exactly the information I wanted.

      Asking how I could have found this page, so I don't have to bother their support the next time I need information about different software bundles, I was informed that there is no link from the main or search page that would have enabled me to find it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:I laugh by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2, Informative
      My single experience with MS support was that they spent most of the time verifying that the failure/bug in Office Developer Edition 2002 was not a result of hardware or misconfiguration.

      They then advised me to reinstall ODE, and when that failed, to reformat and reinstall Windows and all of my applications. I was on a remote site, having flown there on a light plane with weight limits, so I had none of the install CDs.

      That was when I made the decision to move my business and customers away from Microsoft.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    22. Re:I laugh by RodgerDodger · · Score: 4, Funny

      You do realise they probably spent the week writing the page, right?

      --
      "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
    23. Re:I laugh by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, his point was that your license agreement for any piece of commercial software largely precludes you from suing for anything. Microsoft have a somewhat nicer one which limits any liability to $5 or something like that, which is absolutely useless for your company but could be nasty for them if there's a class action.

      It might be an idea to go through the EULAs for the main packages you use and show your boss the sections where they disclaim any liability. Many of them specifically forbid you from suing them for defects, too.

  2. It's been said before... by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Allow me to say it yet again. If you're depending on something like advertising revenue alone to support your free product, you'd better make sure it's licensed appropriately and you understand your target audience. For software projects, it frequently makes a lot more sense to charge for support and feature enhancement. It frequently makes sense to give the software itself away under an OSI license (the approach I usually take).

    This means you're placing the value on your time. If people want installation help, custom configuration, or even hosting services for your application/software suite, you charge them. Ongoing maintenance? Charge them. Everything doesn't have to be free, something people seem to frequently forget.

  3. A good example? by DogDude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article makes a plausible argument, but fails to give any real world examples.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:A good example? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mozilla, MySQL, (insert linux distro here), and plenty of others offer services and software for free. They also offer "premium" services, but nonetheless, there's a big 'free' portion of their business model. Google is another example of offer many services for free. Nine Inch Nails just made a load of money off an album that was written under the creative commons license, so its absolutely free to distribute if you own it.

  4. Some people have to blame others. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some people will always blame others for their failures. It's just that right now it is fashionable to bash Free Software.

    I believe that this is because more people are trying to make $$MILLIONS$$ personally (remember the old Microsoft millionaires) on software that other people have written.

    Essentially, they're trying to put an artificial bottleneck between the consumers and the product so they can extract money from the bottleneck. Lots of money. When they don't get lots of money, they whine. When someone else renders the bottleneck ineffective, they whine.

  5. Ecosystems come in many flavors by postbigbang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's the OS model as manifested by Ubuntu, RH, SUSE, and others. Each has different market motivators and success.

    There's the cool-app model, like MySQL, Apache, and others that depend on application support and transparency across a lot of software disciplines.

    There's the vertical app model, like Asterisk, that uses hardware/software/extensions to motivate the community, each making a few cents in within sub-markets.

    There's the 'fringe' app (not said in a deragotory way) that uses a shareware-like valuing through paypal, donationware, and other 'love of the art'/hacker's bent.

    And these are only a sampling of general categories. F/OSS in the Stallman model doesn't have to be a vow of poverty. On the contrary, we're only scratching the surface of how F/OSS makes money.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  6. How ignorant. by Score+Whore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder at Techdirt's economic and business background. They make a fundamental error in they're argument that programmers are being paid for their time and not for their code. The problem is that most every programmer who is being paid for their time, doesn't own the code they produce. Those who are contracting aren't being paid for their time, they're being paid for a solution to a problem. The remaining few who are paid for their time but negotiated up front for a free license are so rare that they're basically ignorable.

    The fact that they've made such a basic blunder in understanding the actual mechanics of the industry makes me wonder, even in the presence of their semi-sophisticated talk of scarcity, what they actually know about business.

    1. Re:How ignorant. by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I recently got paid for my time developing a product, negotiated an open license for it, and retained copyright to the code. I think if more programmers were simple aware of these options, and knew how to show their customers the benefits of such arrangements, we'd have a lot adoption of this practice.

    2. Re:How ignorant. by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe. There are few circumstances where a customer will allow you to keep copyright to the code. Two of them are:

      1) It's something that they could buy, but you're selling it to them cheaper. Or
      2) It gives them no business advantage over their competitors.

      In case 1, you're going to continually fight a battle trying to price your sale lower than the competition. In case 2, you'll find an upper limit on what the customer is willing to pay.

    3. Re:How ignorant. by Seska · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't see how this is relevant. Techdirt's article was all about how real business models need to reflect both the near-zero marginal cost of additional copies of media and (therefore) the need to make money on scarce commodities.

      For example, programmers generally charge for scarce commodities (time or solutions), and don't attempt to trade for the free stuff (additional (marginal) copies of their completed software).

      They then point out how the blogger blew it (trying to get paid for near-zero marginal cost items) and how Radiohead didn't. Similarly, Google gives away searches (near-zero marginal cost) and sells the scarce stuff (ad space on often-viewed and topically related web pages).

    4. Re:How ignorant. by Bodrius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps you are the one making a basic blunder: when people outside of Slashdot talk about "Free", they mean the dictionary "Free" as abscribed to a product, not the "RMS definition of Free".

      There is nothing in the article related to open source licenses, etc. They're completely irrelevant to the economic argument - and frankly, to the common mechanics of the industries that the article describes.

      That's the problem with arbitrarily redefining perfectly good words in common use.
      Don't expect the rest of the world to suddenly adopt your new meanings for their own words - most of them don't know (or give a rat's derriere) about such terminology.

      --
      Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
    5. Re:How ignorant. by cduffy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been the employer allowing a contractor to keep copyright to his code. Why? The contractor was the maintainer of HylaFAX+, and was offering to do custom work for us at a very reasonable price provided we made that policy exception; otherwise, his rates were much, much higher. In addition to fixing bugs on a timeframe that matched with our release schedule (rather than the as-time-permits bugfix schedule for regular OSS users), he added integration points and hooks where we could connect to our custom, proprietary code. Everyone -- including our competition -- has access to those hooks, but we were the folks with the code (both in our product and in the glue) to take immediate and best advantage of them.

      We even released some of our less proprietary related bits upstream to the community -- such as scriptage for using Inkscape as a just-in-time SVG renderer for much fancier cover pages than HylaFAX was able to handle on its own. Why? Because I wrote them in-house, and I wasn't going to be there (or working on faxing) forever; having those bits (which weren't exactly "secret sauce", just a little bit of extra flare) in the public consciousness meant that whoever ends up taking over the fax subsystem (of our much, much larger product) now that I'm gone will be able to pick up any third-party enhancements to that code which have been made upstream -- and maybe, just maybe, having that example available of what the enhancements we paid to add to HylaFAX+ can do will result in the HylaFAX.org branch deciding to pick them up, meaning that customers owning fax hardware only the iFax commercial variant of HylaFAX.org can interoperate with would be able to use that hardware with our product.

    6. Re:How ignorant. by pipatron · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh. I always thought the word Free in the movie title Free Willy actually meant to free something from its bonds, not that someone gave away a whale.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    7. Re:How ignorant. by cduffy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That someone probably wouldn't have written code up to the standards of the project's maintainer, thus it wouldn't have gotten accepted upstream, thus we would have had to keep paying that someone to update their code every time we wanted to port to a newer version of the upstream product. Sure, it might save some money in the short term (but then it might not -- communications problems can throw off a release schedule pretty easily, and a slipped release date costs more money than any fax subsystem enhancements are worth)... but getting code upstream is well worth it.

      We'll see how that goes; outsourcing everything is the approach that company is taking right now. As a shareholder, I wish them the best... but I'm not exactly holding my breath.

  7. TANSTAAFL by symbolset · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No human effort is free. All human efforts require time and energy, overhead and maintenance. This is more so true when the efforts are subsidized by a company. When a contributor gives effort to the improvement of software that is to be made freely available to all he (or she) is engaged in a contract wherein he can expect a benefit called "progress."

    Such a contributor may offer this up for the benefit of all, but that point is not important to the contract. As long as there are two contributors in the world so involved that their efforts benefit each other the terms of the contract are kept and the benefit is achieved. That there are many, many contributors so engaged amplifies the benefit for all.

    Progress benefits us everyone. Perhaps "free" isn't the right word after all.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  8. Paying for your time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, since the software itself is free, and all revenue is generated from service contracts and tech support, who pays for the time that went into the original software?

    If the software was perfect, ie the original programmers had put enough time into it to completely debug the code, the user interface was simple and intuitive, no conflicts with other programs arose, etc...
        there would be no need for tech-support
        there would be no income from the software

    So by giving away the software free, does that encourage buggy programming?

    ABIL

    1. Re:Paying for your time by HappySmileMan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One of the key points of FOSS from what I remember is that the users ARE the developers, that's incentive enough for them not to produce crap.

      Of course MS programmers are users of Windows mostly, but I suppose when they're given deadlines and told exactly what to do by marketers who care more about looks and advertising than features they start to slip

    2. Re:Paying for your time by init100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Support does not only mean a help desk and bug fixes, but also include customization and integration with the customers' existing systems. Even if you would write perfect bug-free software, those two demands wouldn't magically vanish.

    3. Re:Paying for your time by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
      One of the key points of FOSS from what I remember is that the users ARE the developers, that's incentive enough for them not to produce crap.

      That is incentive enough to produce something that doesn't look like complete crap to your fellow geeks. It doesn't mean that you can deliver a damn thing that is usable by anyone else.

  9. yes it does (communism) by Deanalator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A good business model is simple and robust enough that it's hard to screw up. If a company is brave enough to try a "free" business model, and it fails, it was probably explained to them in poor and simplistic terms.

    Once you start tacking on conditionals and making the model more complex, it is no longer a good business model. Blaming companies that can't figure it out helps no one.

    Just because you have an idea that works well in a theoretical context, and there have been a few success stories, does not mean that it's a good model.

  10. Another big point... by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not that things ought to be free because they can be free -- but that things will be free because that's just basic economics. Price gets driven to marginal cost in a competitive market, and the reason it happens is because others do learn to put in place business models that work, and then if you're the lone holdout, people start to ignore you.

    This is just the limiting case of the market. This is what destroyed DEC and other big hardware companies that tried to avoid producing cheap computers that would outcompete their high margin ones. People didn't buy the VAX instead of their desktop PDP-11s running stripped down RSX (P/OS, what a perfect name for an OS that was), people bought desktop micros that had processors that might have sucked compared to the LSI-11... but they cost so much less that there was no demand for something in the middle.

    So now one of the things that's hurting traditionally marketed music sales is nontraditionally marketed music. The marginal cost of production of music is now nearly zero, therefore if you can make enough money to make it worthwhile to keep selling a small number of CDs at CDBABY based on the free samples you give away at LAST.FM, why wouldn't you? If you can get your music onto iTunes and Amazon for nothing, and get modest sales and the possibility of better sales (look at how Jonathan Coulton's doing, eh?), you're going to do that as well as playing gigs and trying to get the attention of the big labels and all the other stuff that musicians have been doing for years.

    And so people like me get our music from last.fm and 3hive.com and Amazon and iTunes and don't bother going to the record store or listening to the radio (which is all the same Clear Channel approved pulp anyway)... because it's getting easier and easier to find out about the people who are making free work for them... mostly free, just enough that's not free to keep the people making the free stuff to keep people like me going "hey, that's good, I'll get their album" now and then...

  11. Re:IANAB and I did not RTFA, but.. by Score+Whore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And what's the value of something that doesn't exist? Until someone comes along and creates the work you consider to be available in infinite quantity, it's only available on zero quantity. Given that that is the extreme end of scarcity no amount of money will allow you to buy it. Does that make the act of creation of infinite value?

    Maybe you shouldn't try and hang your economic philosophy on old ideas of supply and demand?

  12. Glad people are discussing scarcity by sayfawa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's easy to see this in the logical (and hopefully soon, prevalent) way when one talks about the scarce vs non-scarce goods.

    I've given up thinking or caring or trying to explain to others whether or not illegal downloading hurts authors. Now I just point out how stupid it is to trade a scarce good, like money or food, for a non-scarce one, like a digital reproduction. It just doesn't make any kind of mathematical or economical sense.

    If a person wants to give their favourite author some money, fine. But call it what it is: a donation, not a trade.

    --
    Free the Quark 3 from asymptotic confinement! Bring your charm! Don't get down! All colours and flavours welcome!
    1. Re:Glad people are discussing scarcity by samkass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So what are you proposing, state sponsorship of all creative works? Everyone contribute what they can and take what they need?

      The output of creative folks is NOT a non-scarce good... it's actually extremely scarce. And if there isn't a better model than Copyright (and no one seems to have implemented one yet), then when you pay for the reproductions you're funding the original work.

      --
      E pluribus unum
  13. Let's answer Poole's question... by argent · · Score: 3, Informative

    But if there's been a comparable success by a band that hasn't already gained its cultural capital and name-recognition through the evils of copyright and corporate promotion, I'd like to know about it.

    Jonathan Coulton?

  14. Entreprenuer Barbie: "Business is hard!" by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A good business model is simple and robust enough that it's hard to screw up.

    All business models are easy to screw up. Most new companies fail within a very few years.

    This isn't a matter of blaming companies, it's a matter of recognizing reality.

    Just because you have an idea that works well in a theoretical context, and there have been a few success stories, does not mean that it's a good model.

    The article wasn't about a business model, it was about why some business models work and others don't. There are many business models that involve giving away one good to promote the sales of other goods that you can sell at a higher margin. "Give away the razor and sell the blades" is a business model, and obviously a successful one, but do you expect to get into that business today, without a lot of effort and luck?

    The first lesson this article is trying to impart is that when you have a good that has a high marginal cost of production, and one that has a low marginal cost of production, you are probably not going to succeed if you give away a lot of the ones that cost you a lot to produce, but you may be able to succeed if you can give away the ones that don't cost much to produce to drive the sales of the higher cost one.

    The second is that there are many business models that can be based on the fact that some goods have a zero marginal cost of production. If you are going to make a living that way, you need to come up with one of them. But just noticing that a good has a zero marginal cost of production isn't a business model.

  15. Using the FREE model with music by politicsapocalypse · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Last month I released Politics Apocalypse, a full length album using the creative commons licence attribution 3.0. This allows you to use the music however you please (including in commercial projects) so long as you give credit. Since last month we have had over 3000 album downloads. We accept donations, and we have a name-your-own-price CD; which is a unique concept where you can name your own price (starting at cost price) for a CD. We have had some orders and heaps of positive feedback. We have just added a new members area of the website. The members area contains new songs as they are finished, available to members long before they are released in album form to the rest of the world. Anyone who supports us by donating, ordering a CD (name-your-own-price) or submitting creative feedback are given an account. Hopefully this new addition will encourage donations, as so far the number of donations and CD orders are much lower than the number of album downloads and positive feedback. I realise that the created music is an infinite good, but it would be nice to get some support for the amount of time it takes to create. The statistics of downloads/orders etc are on the website. http://www.politicsapocalypse.com/

  16. There's Scarce and then there's Too Scarce by NetSettler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    you give away the infinite goods, not the scarce goods. Your time is a scarce good.

    This works well if you are a consulting house. But the danger is that you are so scarce that you cannot replicate yourself fast enough for support, so you will not support what you do either. Someone else will, and you'll risk having nothing because you've given away the only thing that you truly owned, which was the part you contributed.

    This also takes a dim view of what you are contributing, as if the only part of coding was implementation. Good design is, alas, not copyrightable, and so is difficult to protect. But that doesn't mean it wasn't scarce. It just means there isn't good protection for that kind of scarcity. And since many participants in the discussion are predisposed to think that protection of any kind of intellectual property is bad just because they've seen some things in intellectual property that it was demonstrably bad to protect, the possibility of adding intellectual property protection of one kind or another doesn't occur.

    I actually think a lot of the problems of IP protection are due to the duration of the protection and not the fact of it (though I do agree there are also things that are protected foolishly). My point is that if they expired quickly, it wouldn't matter much if there were mistakes made favoring creators, but it would give the creator time to negotiate before the fact that he created something was irrelevant because everyone else had it and was exploiting it to their advantage, not to his.

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

  17. Thank you for bringing this. by Zombie+Ryushu · · Score: 3, Informative

    Keep in mind that I am a supporter of the Free software movement and its ideals. I just think that in some ways, the F/OSS model and software in general could use a modified lesson from Edward Demming (too bad he is worm food.)

    I speak strictly to the Linux economy when I say this, and this is one reason why Linux isn't as popular an OS with commercial development as it is.

    First:

    Do not write your applications with a blatant double standard. Examnple:

    Windows version: Nice GUI interface.
    Linux Version of same App: CLI if lucky with text file configuration.

    That is really really really disrepectful. I'm looking at you: synergy

    Second. There are established methods of installing appication software. e.g. RPMs, Debs. I hate to say it. Disregaurd the other package formats. make an RPM or a DEB and you have 95% of the Linux market covered. RPM and DEB are availible on EVERY distro.

    Don't leave your software full of memory leaks, integer overflows, and other things that can make a system crash.

    If you are a closed source vendor, provide an x86_64 and x86_32 package.

    If you are an Open Source Vendor: Do NOT package your source as a RAR. Package using BZ2.

    Do NOT package your own hacked versions of SDL, OpenAL, or OpenGL. This is likely to break things. (I'm looking at you d2x-xl.)

    Have a good support model. Don't be fly-by-night. Don't be a scam artist, don't be a con artist. Don't do a half ass job on your Linux port. Simply stated don't be a total imbecile.

  18. Re:There's no such thing... by BobNET · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's no such thing as infinite.

    What about stupidity?

  19. Straw man argument by Seska · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Score, you know better than that and you shouldn't be trying to use inflammatory rhetoric. The fact that a price/demand curve tends to a 0 price in no way implies that it goes infinite price.

    In some cases there is no pre-creation demand, because no-one knows they want it. Examples include music from unknown artists, fiction from unknown authors, etc. In other cases the demand is better (though not perfectly) known: a new Radiohead album, an Indiana Jones movie, or spaceflight for tourists.

  20. "Free" vs "Unlimited" - how Craigslist is losing by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The "free" model is breaking down for Craigslist. I just wrote an article about this on Techdirt. Craigslist allows free ads, but not unlimited free ads. The intent is to allow individuals to post a few ads a week. But for some advertisers, that's not enough.

    Craigslist has all the usual defenses. They have limits on how much each account can post. They have a CAPTCHA. They have E-mail account validation. They check for excessive posting from one IP address. And they have a flagging system to catch any remaining spam.

    All those defenses have been breached. There are power tools for Craiglist spammers. Commercially available power tools. Multiple accounts are created for ad spamming. OCR is used to break the CAPTCHA. Jiffy Gmail Creator ("Who Else Wants to Create Unlimited Gmail Accounts in Seconds Flat Without Breaking a Sweat?") is used to create vast numbers of GMail accounts to receive the account validation replies. IP proxies are used to get around per-IP limitations. Postings flagged off are automatically reposted.

    Against these industrial strength automated posting tools, Craigslist is losing. Major areas of the site are over 90% spam, and angry users are deserting the site. Craigslist is trying phone verification, but even that has been broken. (Read the Techdirt article and the Black Hat SEO forums for how that's done.)

    Craigslist is being hit because it's the biggest free ad site, but attack tools are available for other ad and social networking sites. You can read about it on the "Black Hat SEO" forums.

  21. Re:IANAB and I did not RTFA, but.. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Anthing that is available in an infinite quantity should be free." No, what he's saying is that anything available in an infinite quantity will be free. That's just basic economics. The trick is to tie the free infinite good to a scarce good. If you get the business model right, the free infinite good will drive demand for the scarce good.
  22. I still don't get it. by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 4, Insightful
    [flame suit on]

    I still don't get it.

    My brother writes books and magazine articles. He gets paid for his books and articles. He also publishes some stuff 'for free' on his blog (there's a free e/audio-book on there right now for instance). However, his core, major work isn't free. This way he can afford to feed and clothe his children. If he gave his stuff away, or asked for contributions he wouldn't make any money (he knows this because he's tried unsuccessfully).

    How does an author who writes 8 hours a day make a living if he gives his stuff away?

    Or does he become a carpenter and write for fun an hour or two a week because writing is not a 'career path', but being a mechanic or carpenter is?

    Please explain.

    [/flame]

  23. Infinite resource is irrelevant by SpinyNorman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the real world:

    1) Software costs a lot of money to design, write, document and support, and little money to reproduce, and the latter therefore plays little role in determining price, regardless of how much potential customers want to whine "but it costs you nothing to reproduce - it's an infinite resource"

    2) Software is basically ideas encoded as 1's and 0's. The 1's and 0's may be an infinite resource, but the ideas are not. Some ideas are scarcer than others, or more expensive to turn into 1's and 0's, and you may expect to pay more for them according to this scarcity and conversion cost.

  24. Re:Need to look at overall compensation by westlake · · Score: 2, Interesting
    In terms of media specifically...well that's all disposable income anyways. People only spend money on movie/music when have spare change to spend on entertainment.

    In the Depression of the 1930s and throughout World War Two about the only relief you had from work and worry was radio and the movies. Travel restrictions. Rationing of every kind.

    Entertainment becomes more important not less when people are under stress.

  25. Information was always free, that's not the point by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Copyright is a social contract, the entire principle behind it is to add an artificial value to something which in the free market is essentially valueless. It does this on the basis that while the replication of a creative idea is free, the creation of it is not and while creative people can always make a living in other ways and even continue their art, it'd be better for society if the ones who created good works could have a revenue stream to continue creating them.

    The problem in the modern era is not that the marginal cost has come down(it was never all that high), but that the copyright holders have breached their side of the contract. The length of copyright is such that a copyright holder can sometimes ensure that one or two pieces of work can provide an income not only for themselves but for their descendants. While wise investment of the profits from a successful creative work has always had this capability, it is only fairly recently that the creative work itself could do this.

    This not only means that creative individuals(and the children of creative individuals who might have otherwise been creative themselves) are, contrary to the intention of the social contract not encouraged to create, but that their works do not reenter the public domain and provide value to society in general.

    Copyright law cannot be enforced because the majority of people do not believe they are doing anything wrong when they break it. The reason(IMO) for this is that they feel consciously or not, that the other side broke the deal first. Unless copyright returns to it's original intent, or the social contract is successfully redefined(a difficult proposition for all those reeducation classes they want to give students since it's hard to convince someone that they shouldn't want a fair deal), copyright will die. If copyright dies, a great number of ideas and creations that might otherwise benefit society may never be created and industries and creative individuals will be forced to conceal their ideas in order to protect their value.

    This would not be a good thing, so for the good of society hopefully we can find a compromise where artists and inventors get to make a living(though not forever) and society gets free access to creativity(though not right away).

  26. Re:Information was always free, that's not the poi by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For the most part, I agree with you. Unfortunately we are currently educating people that violating copyright is OK. Every student going through school today gets this from other students and gets nothing in the way of information opposing this view. I would claim that it makes no difference whether or not "getting a fair deal" has anything to do with it. If people are conditioned to believe that murder is good under the right circumstances, they will happily participate in murder. Just check out the Aztec society for an example of this.

    I don't care what your belief is on copyright, right or wrong. We are creating a society in which all digital materials have a value of zero. This isn't a good idea.

    Finally, on the subject of entering the public domain I have to seriously question the benefit of most things entering the public domain. Today we have companies which have at the core only a relatively few valuable properties like this. You can perhaps argue if this is a good thing overall for society in general but I believe the value is demonstrated each and every day that the company derives revenue from sale of these properties. In other words, if Mickey Mouse has any value at all it is because this value is being actively exploited by the Disney company. Without Disney, there would be no value for Mickey Mouse. I would also say that without Microsoft the Windows trademark has no value. I don't think there is any way around it.

    You can try to destroy the value of these and other properties but all you are going to end up doing is removing the revenue stream and devaluing the property. In isolation, these properties have no value. This differs considerably from a relatively few works that exist. I contend that the Mona Lisa has value quite apart from any licensing or copyright. At the same time I contend that the drawing I made as a six year old child can be copyrighted but has no value apart from whatever might be derived from licensing it - hopefully zero.

  27. Re:Information was always free, that's not the poi by Eskarel · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The Mona Lisa does indeed have value, as does all art, it has value as art. That's why we have copyright in the first place, not to guarantee some schmuck an income but because art and in more general terms creativity has value in and of itself.

    The more people who see a painting they love, or listen to music they love, or see a play/movie that moves them, or see how things work and can build off that work to create something new the better off we are as a society. This is what they mean by information wanting to be free.

    Copyright is a compromise/social contract between the needs of society to have more and more beautiful things and the needs of artists to be able to create beautiful things without starving to death. Society knows that information has no intrinsic monetary value because it has an infinite supply, but it also realizes that information has an incredible non monetary value and so it's production needs to be encouraged.

    I agree with you that the fact that the youth of today are becoming more and more anti-copyright is a tragedy. I've already said that I believe a world without the creative works that are possible because of copyright would be a poorer place to live.

    On the other hand I believe that today's youth being anti-copyright comes more from the fact that the copyright holders have abused their side of the deal than from anything else. They take as much value as they can and give nothing back.

    Your issues with Mickey Mouse and the Windows Logo are more issues of trademark than copyright which is a different sort of situation(and particularly complex in situations like Mickey Mouse where copyright and trademark overlap), but even on that grounds I think that it would be better to have everyone who wants to watch Steam Boat Willy or Snow White or even some of the more recent Disney productions than for Disney to be able to control and profit from them after all these years.